From unknown Fri Jun 20 20:01:38 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#4472: 23.1; Emacs manual not too helpful about binding keys Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 4472@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs 2Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:00:06 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: report 4472 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B.125322790916710 (code B ref -1); Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:00:06 +0000 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 17 Sep 2009 22:51:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.0 tests=AWL,FOURLA autolearn=no version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n8HMpmYE016707 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:51:49 -0700 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MoPpM-0007s1-1b for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:51:48 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MoPpG-0007rX-De for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:51:46 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=33094 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MoPpG-0007rU-Av for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:51:42 -0400 Received: from acsinet11.oracle.com ([141.146.126.233]:33623) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MoPpF-000632-RU for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:51:42 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by acsinet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n8HMqn6N032730 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 22:52:50 GMT Received: from abhmt014.oracle.com (abhmt014.oracle.com [141.146.116.23]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n8HMq0MB002225 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 22:52:00 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:51:36 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:51:39 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Aco36Wsc+Q8uiYB0R0WHZJwv/3TYiA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Source-IP: abhmt014.oracle.com [141.146.116.23] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4AB2BD79.005F:SCFSTAT5015188,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) I find the Emacs manual not to be very helpful about how to bind key sequences. I couldn't even find the form (kbd...) in the manual, and I thought that was what we are now recommending in general (no?). I tried using `i' in the manual to find information about how to bind keys, but it wasn't very helpful. I looked for `binding', and the only index entry was for node Commands. I tried `i key TAB' and saw lots that looks similar (rebinding, binding,...). Not too clear to me. I finally found node Init Rebinding (weird name, BTW). It had examples of using strings such as "\C-z" and vectors such as [?\C-=] and [C-mouse-1], but it had nothing about `kbd' or the form [(control mouse-1)]. I didn't find a node that explained the various formats and their different uses and limitations. I didn't find any general format recommendations. I didn't find any link in Init Rebinding to another node that might explain such things - the only link there sends you to a node explaining details about keyboard encodings and binding non-ASCII keys. Where is the introductory, top-level explanation about recommended ways to bind keys? Surely that's something that even lots of non-expert users do. The Key Bindings node (from node Customization) sends you immediately into the depths of understanding keymaps - no introduction there about binding keys AFAICT. I did find information about `kbd' in the Elisp manual, and even some text that stresses its convenience and portability. But that information is missing from the Emacs manual AFAICT. IIUC, this is info that is quite important for most users. There are often questions at help-gnu-emacs about how to bind keys, and the answer there is typically: "Use kbd". If this is a FAQ, then the answer belongs in the Emacs manual, no? I this kind of info belongs in the Emacs manual and I hope that someone can find the time to add it (or move it) there. In GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2009-07-29 on SOFT-MJASON Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.4)' From unknown Fri Jun 20 20:01:38 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#4472: 23.1; Emacs manual not too helpful about binding keys Reply-To: Chong Yidong , 4472@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: Chong Yidong Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs 2Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:20:06 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 4472 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 4472-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B4472.125331547723783 (code B ref 4472); Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:20:06 +0000 Received: (at 4472) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 18 Sep 2009 23:11:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from pantheon-po45.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po45.its.yale.edu [130.132.50.79]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n8INBGLS023771 for <4472@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:11:17 -0700 Received: from furry (dhcp128036014244.central.yale.edu [128.36.14.244]) (authenticated bits=0) by pantheon-po45.its.yale.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n8INBA61006600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:11:10 -0400 Received: by furry (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A414FC070; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:11:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Chong Yidong To: "Drew Adams" Cc: 4472@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:11:10 -0400 Message-ID: <87zl8ronld.fsf@stupidchicken.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-YaleITSMailFilter: Version 1.2c (attachment(s) not renamed) > I couldn't even find the form (kbd...) in the manual, and I thought > that was what we are now recommending in general (no?). >From the manual: There are several ways to write a key binding using Lisp. The simplest is to use the `kbd' macro, which converts a textual representation of a key sequence--similar to how we have written key sequences in this manual--into a form that can be passed as an argument to `global-set-key'. For example, here's how to bind `C-z' to `shell' (*note Interactive Shell::): (global-set-key (kbd "C-z") 'shell) etc., etc. From unknown Fri Jun 20 20:01:38 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#4472: 23.1; Emacs manual not too helpful about binding keys Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 4472@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs 2Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:35:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 4472 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by 4472-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B4472.125331646726518 (code B ref 4472); Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:35:05 +0000 Received: (at 4472) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 18 Sep 2009 23:27:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.0 tests=AWL autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from acsinet11.oracle.com (acsinet11.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n8INRjBa026513 for <4472@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:27:46 -0700 Received: from rgminet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by acsinet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n8INSoZQ006286 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:28:51 GMT Received: from abhmt012.oracle.com (abhmt012.oracle.com [141.146.116.21]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n8INS0X6013590; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:28:01 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.5.190.74) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:27:35 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Chong Yidong'" Cc: <4472@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <87zl8ronld.fsf@stupidchicken.com> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:27:44 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <87zl8ronld.fsf@stupidchicken.com> Thread-Index: Aco4tXvBdSgvGUOjSb+iK75+LMGbEgAATPIg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Source-IP: abhmt012.oracle.com [141.146.116.21] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090208.4AB41768.0102:SCFSTAT5015188,ss=1,fgs=0 > > I couldn't even find the form (kbd...) in the manual, and I thought > > that was what we are now recommending in general (no?). > > From the manual: > ... My bad about that. Much of what I wrote in the bug report is still true, but the part about kbd is no longer true (good). I copied the text I has sent as a mail to emacs-devel in August of 2008 (to which I got no reply), and at that time what I said about kbd etc. was indeed true (for CVS Emacs). Please read the whole bug report, and filter out whatever has been fixed since then. From unknown Fri Jun 20 20:01:38 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.427 (Entity 5.427) X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (Emacs bug Tracking System) To: "Drew Adams" Subject: bug#4472 closed by Chong Yidong (Re: 23.1; Emacs manual not too helpful about binding keys) Message-ID: References: <87ws3ur5d5.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> X-Emacs-PR-Message: they-closed 4472 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 4472@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 21:35:04 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1253396104-17071-1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1253396104-17071-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" This is an automatic notification regarding your bug report which was filed against the emacs package: #4472: 23.1; Emacs manual not too helpful about binding keys It has been closed by Chong Yidong . Their explanation is attached below along with your original report. If this explanation is unsatisfactory and you have not received a better one in a separate message then please contact Chong Yidong by replying to this email. --=20 4472: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D4472 Emacs Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1253396104-17071-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 4472-done) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 19 Sep 2009 21:27:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from cyd.mit.edu (CYD.MIT.EDU [18.115.2.24]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n8JLRLfe016186 for <4472-done@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 19 Sep 2009 14:27:22 -0700 Received: by cyd.mit.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 16E7057E21C; Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:28:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Chong Yidong To: "Drew Adams" Cc: <4472-done@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Re: 23.1; Emacs manual not too helpful about binding keys References: <87zl8ronld.fsf@stupidchicken.com> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:28:54 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:27:44 -0700") Message-ID: <87ws3ur5d5.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "Drew Adams" writes: > Please read the whole bug report, and filter out whatever has been fixed since > then. I've checked in some changes which should clarify things. ------------=_1253396104-17071-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 17 Sep 2009 22:51:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=4.0 tests=AWL,FOURLA autolearn=no version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n8HMpmYE016707 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:51:49 -0700 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MoPpM-0007s1-1b for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:51:48 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MoPpG-0007rX-De for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:51:46 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=33094 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MoPpG-0007rU-Av for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:51:42 -0400 Received: from acsinet11.oracle.com ([141.146.126.233]:33623) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MoPpF-000632-RU for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:51:42 -0400 Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by acsinet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n8HMqn6N032730 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 22:52:50 GMT Received: from abhmt014.oracle.com (abhmt014.oracle.com [141.146.116.23]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n8HMq0MB002225 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 22:52:00 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:51:36 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: 23.1; Emacs manual not too helpful about binding keys Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:51:39 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Aco36Wsc+Q8uiYB0R0WHZJwv/3TYiA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Source-IP: abhmt014.oracle.com [141.146.116.23] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090206.4AB2BD79.005F:SCFSTAT5015188,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) I find the Emacs manual not to be very helpful about how to bind key sequences. I couldn't even find the form (kbd...) in the manual, and I thought that was what we are now recommending in general (no?). I tried using `i' in the manual to find information about how to bind keys, but it wasn't very helpful. I looked for `binding', and the only index entry was for node Commands. I tried `i key TAB' and saw lots that looks similar (rebinding, binding,...). Not too clear to me. I finally found node Init Rebinding (weird name, BTW). It had examples of using strings such as "\C-z" and vectors such as [?\C-=] and [C-mouse-1], but it had nothing about `kbd' or the form [(control mouse-1)]. I didn't find a node that explained the various formats and their different uses and limitations. I didn't find any general format recommendations. I didn't find any link in Init Rebinding to another node that might explain such things - the only link there sends you to a node explaining details about keyboard encodings and binding non-ASCII keys. Where is the introductory, top-level explanation about recommended ways to bind keys? Surely that's something that even lots of non-expert users do. The Key Bindings node (from node Customization) sends you immediately into the depths of understanding keymaps - no introduction there about binding keys AFAICT. I did find information about `kbd' in the Elisp manual, and even some text that stresses its convenience and portability. But that information is missing from the Emacs manual AFAICT. IIUC, this is info that is quite important for most users. There are often questions at help-gnu-emacs about how to bind keys, and the answer there is typically: "Use kbd". If this is a FAQ, then the answer belongs in the Emacs manual, no? I this kind of info belongs in the Emacs manual and I hope that someone can find the time to add it (or move it) there. In GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2009-07-29 on SOFT-MJASON Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.4)' ------------=_1253396104-17071-1--