GNU bug report logs - #43865
mml-attach-file could call system file chooser

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 19:45:59 +0800

C-c C-a runs the command mml-attach-file (found in message-mode-map),
which is an interactive autoloaded compiled Lisp function in
‘mml.el’.

OK, but wouldn't it be nice if this could call the "system file chooser"
like Firefox and Chromium do when picking files?

That way one could e.g., even see a preview of each JPG before selecting the
right one.

Message #8 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 14:58:52 +0300

> From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
>  <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 19:45:59 +0800
> 
> C-c C-a runs the command mml-attach-file (found in message-mode-map),
> which is an interactive autoloaded compiled Lisp function in
> ‘mml.el’.
> 
> OK, but wouldn't it be nice if this could call the "system file chooser"
> like Firefox and Chromium do when picking files?

Emacs pops up the file selection dialog when the command that prompts
for a file was invoked from a mouse-click event (some menu or tool-bar
button).  When the command is invoked from the keyboard, we don't show
the GUI dialogs.  See the variable use-dialog-box.

This is not a bug, but the usual Emacs behavior.

Message #11 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 15:12:56 +0300

> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 14:58:52 +0300
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> See the variable use-dialog-box.

And the companion variable use-file-dialog.

Message #14 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 14:28:16 +0200

>>>>> On Thu, 08 Oct 2020 14:58:52 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> said:

    >> From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
    >> <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
    >> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 19:45:59 +0800
    >> 
    >> C-c C-a runs the command mml-attach-file (found in message-mode-map),
    >> which is an interactive autoloaded compiled Lisp function in
    >> ‘mml.el’.
    >> 
    >> OK, but wouldn't it be nice if this could call the "system file chooser"
    >> like Firefox and Chromium do when picking files?

    Eli> Emacs pops up the file selection dialog when the command that prompts
    Eli> for a file was invoked from a mouse-click event (some menu or tool-bar
    Eli> button).  When the command is invoked from the keyboard, we don't show
    Eli> the GUI dialogs.  See the variable use-dialog-box.

    Eli> This is not a bug, but the usual Emacs behavior.

True, but I think this was more of a feature request. How about we
allow use-dialog-box and use-file-dialog to have a value of 'always?
This might even be a good 'starter pack' setting.

Robert
-- 

Message #17 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 20:32:23 +0800

>>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>> See the variable use-dialog-box.
EZ> And the companion variable use-file-dialog.

Testing with emacs -q:
Both are "'t", but C-c C-a still doesn't turn on the file chooser.
I still need to click "Attach File" from the tool bar to do that.
But I want C-c C-a also to do that. But it doesn't.
emacs-version "26.3",

We also note some side effects mentioned
"On some platforms, file selection dialogs are also enabled if this is
non-nil."

I hope all this isn't too bundled together.

(I want a way to have C-c C-a call the file chooser,
but have both variables still nil (which is in fact how I usually have them.)

Message #20 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 15:55:06 +0300

> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>,
>   43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 14:28:16 +0200
> 
> True, but I think this was more of a feature request. How about we
> allow use-dialog-box and use-file-dialog to have a value of 'always?

Does that really work?  Doesn't the mouse click even bring some
information needed by the dialog?  I guess it's okay if not, although
I wouldn't be building such a new feature on a single request.  But
that's me.

Message #23 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 15:56:00 +0300

> From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
> Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 20:32:23 +0800
> 
> >>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> >> See the variable use-dialog-box.
> EZ> And the companion variable use-file-dialog.
> 
> Testing with emacs -q:
> Both are "'t", but C-c C-a still doesn't turn on the file chooser.
> I still need to click "Attach File" from the tool bar to do that.
> But I want C-c C-a also to do that. But it doesn't.

Yes, as documented.

Message #26 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 21:05:11 +0800

Face the facts, no matter what settings you mentioned,
no matter what the values, C-c C-a is not going to start the system's
file chooser!

No file chooser for Grandpa.

>>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>> From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
>> Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 20:32:23 +0800
>> 
>> >>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>> >> See the variable use-dialog-box.
EZ> And the companion variable use-file-dialog.
>> 
>> Testing with emacs -q:
>> Both are "'t", but C-c C-a still doesn't turn on the file chooser.
>> I still need to click "Attach File" from the tool bar to do that.
>> But I want C-c C-a also to do that. But it doesn't.

EZ> Yes, as documented.

Message #29 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 16:12:23 +0300

> From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
> Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 21:05:11 +0800
> 
> Face the facts, no matter what settings you mentioned,
> no matter what the values, C-c C-a is not going to start the system's
> file chooser!
> 
> No file chooser for Grandpa.

Yes, as documented.

Message #32 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 21:22:52 +0800

OK anybody, how can I hack C-c C-a to call the file chooser?
Thanks.

>>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
EZ> Yes, as documented.

Message #35 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 16:28:20 +0300

> From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
> Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 21:22:52 +0800
> 
> OK anybody, how can I hack C-c C-a to call the file chooser?

Click the mouse on the Attachments->Attach File from the menu bar, or
on the tool-bar button that shows a note with a clip.

Message #38 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 21:39:16 +0800

>>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>> From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
>> Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 21:22:52 +0800
>> 
>> OK anybody, how can I hack C-c C-a to call the file chooser?

EZ> Click the mouse on the Attachments->Attach File from the menu bar, or
EZ> on the tool-bar button that shows a note with a clip.

But I want to use C-c C-a. I only want to use the mouse when the file
chooser appears. In fact I have the menu-bar and tool-bar both turned
off too.

In fact if there was a way for C-c C-a to be configured to call the
system file choooser, no mouse would be ever needed: TAB TAB TAB etc.
could navigate everywhere. So what we are seeing here is an uncrossable
accessibility canyon due to this little gap!

Message #41 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 16:05:06 +0200

>>>>> On Thu, 08 Oct 2020 15:55:06 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> said:

    >> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>
    >> Cc: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>,
    >> 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
    >> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 14:28:16 +0200
    >> 
    >> True, but I think this was more of a feature request. How about we
    >> allow use-dialog-box and use-file-dialog to have a value of 'always?

    Eli> Does that really work?  Doesn't the mouse click even bring some
    Eli> information needed by the dialog?  I guess it's okay if not, although
    Eli> I wouldn't be building such a new feature on a single request.  But
    Eli> that's me.

Based on hacking 'next-read-file-uses-dialog-p' to always return t,
things work fine for at least 'find-file' and 'mml-attach-file'

Robert
-- 

Message #44 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2020 06:43:39 +0200

As others have noted, everything here seems to work as designed.  If you
wish to have a visual file chooser for some commands even when invoked
from a keyboard command, you could add that yourself.  But it doesn't
seem generally useful, so I'm closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #49 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Kévin Le Gouguec <kevin.legouguec <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2020 10:01:38 +0200

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> As others have noted, everything here seems to work as designed.  If you
> wish to have a visual file chooser for some commands even when invoked
> from a keyboard command, you could add that yourself.  But it doesn't
> seem generally useful, so I'm closing this bug report.

I'm fine with file selection from the minibuffer, so this is not the
hill I'll die on, but FWIW:

I agree with Robert's interpretation of Dan's report here, this makes
sense to me as a feature request.  Other Software™ usually present a
visual file chooser whether the user clicked File > Open or typed
Control+O, so some users could prefer the hypothetical 'always behaviour
Robert suggested.

Message #52 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2020 22:32:11 +0800

Hmmm, RMS likes using the keyboard. So there should be a way to invoke a
visual chooser from keyboard.

>>>>> "LI" == Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:
LI> As others have noted, everything here seems to work as designed.  If you
LI> wish to have a visual file chooser for some commands even when invoked
LI> from a keyboard command, you could add that yourself.  But it doesn't
LI> seem generally useful, so I'm closing this bug report.

Message #55 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
 <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2020 00:00:27 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Hmmm, RMS likes using the keyboard. So there should be a way to invoke a
  > visual chooser from keyboard.

Doesn't Dired do that?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #58 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Kévin Le Gouguec <kevin.legouguec <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2020 22:17:05 +0200

Kévin Le Gouguec <kevin.legouguec <at> gmail.com> writes:

> I agree with Robert's interpretation of Dan's report here, this makes
> sense to me as a feature request.  Other Software™ usually present a
> visual file chooser whether the user clicked File > Open or typed
> Control+O, so some users could prefer the hypothetical 'always behaviour
> Robert suggested.

I'm not opposed to a user option like that, but I do wonder whether it'd
be used a lot: If `C-x C-f' popped up a graphical file chooser, I think
I'd grow pretty tired of it.

Perhaps I closed this bug report prematurely -- Dan has a point here:
`C-c C-a' in Message is kinda special in one way, in that it's commonly
used to insert images and the like into an email.  For images, you want
the graphical file chooser, because it often shows you thumbnails and
stuff.

With `C-x C-f', the overwhelming number of things you'd open would be
text files, and no thumbnails help with that.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #61 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>,
 Kévin Le Gouguec <kevin.legouguec <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 11:20:00 +0200

>>>>> On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 22:17:05 +0200, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> said:

    Lars> Kévin Le Gouguec <kevin.legouguec <at> gmail.com> writes:
    >> I agree with Robert's interpretation of Dan's report here, this makes
    >> sense to me as a feature request.  Other Software™ usually present a
    >> visual file chooser whether the user clicked File > Open or typed
    >> Control+O, so some users could prefer the hypothetical 'always behaviour
    >> Robert suggested.

    Lars> I'm not opposed to a user option like that, but I do wonder whether it'd
    Lars> be used a lot: If `C-x C-f' popped up a graphical file chooser, I think
    Lars> I'd grow pretty tired of it.

You would, I would, but our hypothetical new user would be expecting
it.

    Lars> Perhaps I closed this bug report prematurely -- Dan has a point here:
    Lars> `C-c C-a' in Message is kinda special in one way, in that it's commonly
    Lars> used to insert images and the like into an email.  For images, you want
    Lars> the graphical file chooser, because it often shows you thumbnails and
    Lars> stuff.

    Lars> With `C-x C-f', the overwhelming number of things you'd open would be
    Lars> text files, and no thumbnails help with that.

This suggests we should have several options for this:

- never
- when invoked by mouse
- always
- only for specific commands

Robert
-- 

Message #64 received at 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 43865 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Kévin Le Gouguec <kevin.legouguec <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#43865: mml-attach-file could call system file chooser
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 19:35:46 +0800

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

>>>>> "LI" == Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

LI> Perhaps I closed this bug report prematurely -- Dan has a point here:
LI> `C-c C-a' in Message is kinda special in one way, in that it's commonly
LI> used to insert images and the like into an email.  For images, you want
LI> the graphical file chooser, because it often shows you thumbnails and
LI> stuff.

Bad news dudes, I just compared Firefox's visual file chooser:

[15092-0.jpg (image/jpeg, attachment)]

[Message part 3 (text/plain, inline)]

and Emacs',

[6414-1.jpg (image/jpeg, attachment)]

[Message part 5 (text/plain, inline)]

and Emacs' doesn't have thumbnails, meaning it is not going to help us,
er, prevent us from accidentally attaching a naked picture of grand*a,
when we thought we were attaching that sphygmograph JPG from last week's
lab test.

P.S., Emacs' says in the image "If you don't like this file selector..."
Well we do! We just oddly aren't allowed to call it via the keyboard.
Also we wish it had thumbnails for image files.

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