GNU bug report logs - #43255
28.0.50; feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: arthur.miller <at> live.com
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 28.0.50; feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 12:16:08 +0200

After I updated source from git and rebuild emacs, I am getting
"void-function subr-native-lambda-list" error on lots of external
packages when I try to load my init file. I tried both -O3 and -O2 with
same (un)success. 

My eln-cache is since 18. and 21. august, do I need to delete old eln
files manually? Or do I need to add some extra path to my init file?

Used to work without problems in earlier builds :-). Thankfull for the
help.

best regards
/a



In GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.23, cairo version 1.17.3)
 of 2020-09-07 built on pascal
Repository revision: eb8742598874d9bd4c84ff54730527c52d29d7ff
Repository branch: feature/native-comp
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12009000
System Description: Arch Linux

Configured features:
XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG CAIRO SOUND GPM DBUS GSETTINGS GLIB NOTIFY
INOTIFY ACL GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE HARFBUZZ M17N_FLT LIBOTF ZLIB
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 XDBE XIM MODULES THREADS LIBSYSTEMD JSON
PDUMPER LCMS2

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  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

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Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message rmc puny dired dired-loaddefs
rfc822 mml mml-sec epa derived epg epg-config gnus-util rmail
rmail-loaddefs text-property-search mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode
mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail rfc2047
rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils time-date help-fns
radix-tree cl-print debug backtrace help-mode find-func advice info
edmacro kmacro helm-easymenu rx realgud-recursive-autoloads package
easymenu browse-url url-handlers url-parse auth-source cl-seq eieio
eieio-core cl-macs eieio-loaddefs password-cache json subr-x map
url-vars seq byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile cconv cl-loaddefs cl-lib
tooltip eldoc electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type
mwheel term/x-win x-win term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image
regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode elisp-mode
lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch
timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu
font-core term/tty-colors frame minibuffer cl-generic cham georgian
utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean
japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european
ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite charscript charprop
case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray
cl-preloaded nadvice loaddefs button faces cus-face macroexp files
text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule
custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbind
inotify lcms2 dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting
cairo move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty make-network-process emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 92974 51573)
 (symbols 48 11031 36)
 (strings 32 33262 8092)
 (string-bytes 1 1352843)
 (vectors 16 15446)
 (vector-slots 8 208577 68090)
 (floats 8 35 364)
 (intervals 56 355 211)
 (buffers 992 14))

Message #8 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
To: arthur.miller <at> live.com
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50;
 feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 12:39:19 +0000

arthur.miller <at> live.com writes:

> After I updated source from git and rebuild emacs, I am getting
> "void-function subr-native-lambda-list" error on lots of external
> packages when I try to load my init file. I tried both -O3 and -O2 with
> same (un)success. 
>
> My eln-cache is since 18. and 21. august, do I need to delete old eln
> files manually? Or do I need to add some extra path to my init file?
>
> Used to work without problems in earlier builds :-). Thankfull for the
> help.
>
> best regards
> /a
>
>
>
> In GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.23, cairo version 1.17.3)
>  of 2020-09-07 built on pascal
> Repository revision: eb8742598874d9bd4c84ff54730527c52d29d7ff
> Repository branch: feature/native-comp
> Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12009000
> System Description: Arch Linux
>
> Configured features:
> XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG CAIRO SOUND GPM DBUS GSETTINGS GLIB NOTIFY
> INOTIFY ACL GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE HARFBUZZ M17N_FLT LIBOTF ZLIB
> TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 XDBE XIM MODULES THREADS LIBSYSTEMD JSON
> PDUMPER LCMS2

Hi Arthur,

is it possible that the Emacs you are using is not compiled activating
the native compiler (--with-nativecomp)?  We should see NATIVE_COMP
within the "Configured features:" above.

OTOH this is telling that compiling the native-comp branch without
activating the native compiler has a problem there.  I'll fix it.

Thanks

  Andrea

Message #11 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: arthur miller <arthur.miller <at> live.com>
To: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
Cc: "43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: Sv: bug#43255: 28.0.50; feature/native-comp void-function
 subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 13:54:51 +0000

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Thanks for the anser; it can be problem to my machine.

I have a shell script that does build native for me, but it seems like after latest system update libgccjit does not pass the test in configure-script. My shell script goes to build after configure automatically, so I haven't noticed untill I just tried manually. I am not sure if that is the problem but it could be, I will see how Emacs builds after libgccjit is rebuilt (usually takes a while on my comp, so I am not sure I will have it today).

regards
/arthur
________________________________
Från: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
Skickat: den 7 september 2020 14:39
Till: arthur.miller <at> live.com <arthur.miller <at> live.com>
Kopia: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org <43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Ämne: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50; feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list

arthur.miller <at> live.com writes:

> After I updated source from git and rebuild emacs, I am getting
> "void-function subr-native-lambda-list" error on lots of external
> packages when I try to load my init file. I tried both -O3 and -O2 with
> same (un)success.
>
> My eln-cache is since 18. and 21. august, do I need to delete old eln
> files manually? Or do I need to add some extra path to my init file?
>
> Used to work without problems in earlier builds :-). Thankfull for the
> help.
>
> best regards
> /a
>
>
>
> In GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.23, cairo version 1.17.3)
>  of 2020-09-07 built on pascal
> Repository revision: eb8742598874d9bd4c84ff54730527c52d29d7ff
> Repository branch: feature/native-comp
> Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12009000
> System Description: Arch Linux
>
> Configured features:
> XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG CAIRO SOUND GPM DBUS GSETTINGS GLIB NOTIFY
> INOTIFY ACL GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE HARFBUZZ M17N_FLT LIBOTF ZLIB
> TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 XDBE XIM MODULES THREADS LIBSYSTEMD JSON
> PDUMPER LCMS2

Hi Arthur,

is it possible that the Emacs you are using is not compiled activating
the native compiler (--with-nativecomp)?  We should see NATIVE_COMP
within the "Configured features:" above.

OTOH this is telling that compiling the native-comp branch without
activating the native compiler has a problem there.  I'll fix it.

Thanks

  Andrea

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #14 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller <at> live.com>
To: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50; feature/native-comp void-function
 subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 16:28:12 +0200

Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org> writes:

> arthur.miller <at> live.com writes:
>
>> After I updated source from git and rebuild emacs, I am getting
>> "void-function subr-native-lambda-list" error on lots of external
>> packages when I try to load my init file. I tried both -O3 and -O2 with
>> same (un)success. 
>>
>> My eln-cache is since 18. and 21. august, do I need to delete old eln
>> files manually? Or do I need to add some extra path to my init file?
>>
>> Used to work without problems in earlier builds :-). Thankfull for the
>> help.
>>
>> best regards
>> /a
>>
>>
>>
>> In GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.23, cairo version 1.17.3)
>>  of 2020-09-07 built on pascal
>> Repository revision: eb8742598874d9bd4c84ff54730527c52d29d7ff
>> Repository branch: feature/native-comp
>> Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12009000
>> System Description: Arch Linux
>>
>> Configured features:
>> XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG CAIRO SOUND GPM DBUS GSETTINGS GLIB NOTIFY
>> INOTIFY ACL GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE HARFBUZZ M17N_FLT LIBOTF ZLIB
>> TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 XDBE XIM MODULES THREADS LIBSYSTEMD JSON
>> PDUMPER LCMS2
>
> Hi Arthur,
>
> is it possible that the Emacs you are using is not compiled activating
> the native compiler (--with-nativecomp)?  We should see NATIVE_COMP
> within the "Configured features:" above.
>
> OTOH this is telling that compiling the native-comp branch without
> activating the native compiler has a problem there.  I'll fix it.
>
> Thanks
>
>   Andrea

I am sorry, it was a false alarm. The problem was libgccjit. I have
rebuild it now, and native Emacs afterwards, and everything works great.

sorry and thanks
/a

Message #19 received at 43255-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
To: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller <at> live.com>
Cc: 43255-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50;
 feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 16:34:14 +0000

Arthur Miller <arthur.miller <at> live.com> writes:

> I am sorry, it was a false alarm.

Well actually you highlighted a real issue :)

d344e79be9 * src/data.c (subr-native-lambda-list): Defined it unconditionally (bug#43255)

address that so I'm closing.

I'm wondering if we should put the information that the running Emacs is
native compiler based in the splash screen too (via the `emacs-verion'
function).  Other important feature are already listed there.

Ccing Eli to get his opinion on this.

Thanks

  Andrea

Message #22 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, arthur.miller <at> live.com
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50;
 feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 19:54:56 +0300

> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
> Cc: 43255-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 16:34:14 +0000
> 
> I'm wondering if we should put the information that the running Emacs is
> native compiler based in the splash screen too (via the `emacs-verion'
> function).  Other important feature are already listed there.
> 
> Ccing Eli to get his opinion on this.

Yes, I think it should be in system-configuration-features.

Message #25 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, arthur.miller <at> live.com
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50;
 feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 17:19:12 +0000

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
>> Cc: 43255-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
>> Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 16:34:14 +0000
>> 
>> I'm wondering if we should put the information that the running Emacs is
>> native compiler based in the splash screen too (via the `emacs-verion'
>> function).  Other important feature are already listed there.
>> 
>> Ccing Eli to get his opinion on this.
>
> Yes, I think it should be in system-configuration-features.

We already add the information there.  I was wondering if is also worth
having the information rendered by `about-emacs'.  Otherwise (as in this
case) may not be very evident to the user what is going on underneath.

On my system I already have informations about GTK and cairo there,
these should be coming from `emacs-version' the function.

Thanks

  Andrea

Message #28 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, arthur.miller <at> live.com
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50;
 feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 22:11:49 +0300

> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
> Cc: arthur.miller <at> live.com, 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 17:19:12 +0000
> 
> > Yes, I think it should be in system-configuration-features.
> 
> We already add the information there.  I was wondering if is also worth
> having the information rendered by `about-emacs'.  Otherwise (as in this
> case) may not be very evident to the user what is going on underneath.
> 
> On my system I already have informations about GTK and cairo there,
> these should be coming from `emacs-version' the function.

That's different.  GTK and Cairo have profound effects on how Emacs
presents itself to the UI.  I don't think native compilation is
similar, or maybe I'm missing something.  What exactly did you think
will not be evident to the user, and why should it be evident?

Message #31 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, arthur.miller <at> live.com
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50;
 feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 19:24:17 +0000

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> That's different.  GTK and Cairo have profound effects on how Emacs
> presents itself to the UI.  I don't think native compilation is
> similar, or maybe I'm missing something.  What exactly did you think
> will not be evident to the user, and why should it be evident?

No you are correct, it is essentially transparent to the user.

And this is why is not the first time that a user miss the fact that
Emacs was compiled with the native compiler or vice versa.  Therefore I
thought was maybe useful to give some visual feedback in the "*About GNU
Emacs*" buffer.

If that string is dedicated to feature with UI effect then the native
compiler does not qualify tho.

Thanks

  Andrea

Message #34 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, arthur.miller <at> live.com
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50;
 feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 05:25:12 +0300

> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
> Cc: arthur.miller <at> live.com, 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 19:24:17 +0000
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > That's different.  GTK and Cairo have profound effects on how Emacs
> > presents itself to the UI.  I don't think native compilation is
> > similar, or maybe I'm missing something.  What exactly did you think
> > will not be evident to the user, and why should it be evident?
> 
> No you are correct, it is essentially transparent to the user.
> 
> And this is why is not the first time that a user miss the fact that
> Emacs was compiled with the native compiler or vice versa.  Therefore I
> thought was maybe useful to give some visual feedback in the "*About GNU
> Emacs*" buffer.

Why is it important for the user to know about the native compiler?
E.g., how is it different from the C compiler switches used to build
Emacs?

Message #37 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller <at> live.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50; feature/native-comp void-function
 subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 06:26:12 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
>> Cc: arthur.miller <at> live.com, 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 19:24:17 +0000
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>> > That's different.  GTK and Cairo have profound effects on how Emacs
>> > presents itself to the UI.  I don't think native compilation is
>> > similar, or maybe I'm missing something.  What exactly did you think
>> > will not be evident to the user, and why should it be evident?
>> 
>> No you are correct, it is essentially transparent to the user.
>> 
>> And this is why is not the first time that a user miss the fact that
>> Emacs was compiled with the native compiler or vice versa.  Therefore I
>> thought was maybe useful to give some visual feedback in the "*About GNU
>> Emacs*" buffer.
>
> Why is it important for the user to know about the native compiler?
> E.g., how is it different from the C compiler switches used to build
> Emacs?
Just as important as x86_64 or linux-gnu :-).

Currently when I press C-h C-a, I get this info (amongst other):

GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.23, cairo version 1.17.3)
 of 2020-09-07

I think it would be handy if there was a bit more info on that page.
I would prefer x64-native GNU/Linux. Why is it less important to know
about non-gui features? For me who has turned off most of gui stuff, GTK
and Cairo versions are not really what I care about. I have them just to
get better font rendering, but now I can maybe compile without at least
Gtk? I mean I don't need to know that it is compiled for GNU/Linux; I
know I am running on a GNU/Linux OS, or that it is a 64-bit OS, yet info
is there.

In my case I would have seen that I didn't compile with native compiler
support even though I intended (since the configure script failed wihout
me noticing).

I also wouldn't mind more info about compiler switches used to build the
version as well as features/packages built-in. I don't know what is
essential more and I don't have any philosophical argument, more than it
is sometimes useful.

Message #40 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller <at> live.com>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50;
 feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 08:04:03 +0300

On September 8, 2020 7:26:12 AM GMT+03:00, Arthur Miller <arthur.miller <at> live.com> wrote:
>Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
>>> Cc: arthur.miller <at> live.com, 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>>> Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 19:24:17 +0000
>>> 
>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>>> 
>> Why is it important for the user to know about the native compiler?
>> E.g., how is it different from the C compiler switches used to build
>> Emacs?
>Just as important as x86_64 or linux-gnu :-).
>
>Currently when I press C-h C-a, I get this info (amongst other):
>
>GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.23,
>cairo version 1.17.3)
> of 2020-09-07
>
>I think it would be handy if there was a bit more info on that page.
>I would prefer x64-native GNU/Linux. Why is it less important to know
>about non-gui features? For me who has turned off most of gui stuff,
>GTK
>and Cairo versions are not really what I care about. I have them just
>to
>get better font rendering, but now I can maybe compile without at least
>Gtk? I mean I don't need to know that it is compiled for GNU/Linux; I
>know I am running on a GNU/Linux OS, or that it is a 64-bit OS, yet
>info
>is there.
>
>In my case I would have seen that I didn't compile with native compiler
>support even though I intended (since the configure script failed
>wihout
>me noticing).
>
>I also wouldn't mind more info about compiler switches used to build
>the
>version as well as features/packages built-in. I don't know what is
>essential more and I don't have any philosophical argument, more than
>it
>is sometimes useful.

That's a different issue.  The original question was about the splash screen and specifically about emacs-version.  I see no reason whatsoever to show information about the native compilation there, as it's a minor feature that moreover has no effect at all until some Lisp files are compiled with it.  Besides, the splash screen is already too crowded.

If you are saying that the "About Emacs" display should be redesigned (to make it look differently from the splash screen), I might agree, but then (a) please show a more detailed proposal, and (b) such a display doesn't need the change to be in emacs-version, it can use the other variables which divulge the details of the build and its configuration.

Btw, in line with the recent "let's be like other apps" trend, I suggest to look at what other apps do in their "About" display: I have the impression that this fashion is on its way out.

Bottom line: you've effectively changed the subject, so I suggest to do that explicitly, and start a new thread/issue.

Message #43 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Arthur Miller <arthur.miller <at> live.com>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50;
 feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 00:47:04 -0700

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I see no reason whatsoever to show information about the native
> compilation there,

Agreed.

> as it's a minor feature that moreover has no effect at all until some
> Lisp files are compiled with it.

AFAICT, when using the native-comp branch, Lisp files are automatically
compiled without me having to do anything.

Message #46 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller <at> live.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50; feature/native-comp void-function
 subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:38:13 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> On September 8, 2020 7:26:12 AM GMT+03:00, Arthur Miller <arthur.miller <at> live.com> wrote:
>>Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>>
>>>> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
>>>> Cc: arthur.miller <at> live.com, 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>>>> Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 19:24:17 +0000
>>>> 
>>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>>>> 
>>> Why is it important for the user to know about the native compiler?
>>> E.g., how is it different from the C compiler switches used to build
>>> Emacs?
>>Just as important as x86_64 or linux-gnu :-).
>>
>>Currently when I press C-h C-a, I get this info (amongst other):
>>
>>GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.23,
>>cairo version 1.17.3)
>> of 2020-09-07
>>
>>I think it would be handy if there was a bit more info on that page.
>>I would prefer x64-native GNU/Linux. Why is it less important to know
>>about non-gui features? For me who has turned off most of gui stuff,
>>GTK
>>and Cairo versions are not really what I care about. I have them just
>>to
>>get better font rendering, but now I can maybe compile without at least
>>Gtk? I mean I don't need to know that it is compiled for GNU/Linux; I
>>know I am running on a GNU/Linux OS, or that it is a 64-bit OS, yet
>>info
>>is there.
>>
>>In my case I would have seen that I didn't compile with native compiler
>>support even though I intended (since the configure script failed
>>wihout
>>me noticing).
>>
>>I also wouldn't mind more info about compiler switches used to build
>>the
>>version as well as features/packages built-in. I don't know what is
>>essential more and I don't have any philosophical argument, more than
>>it
>>is sometimes useful.
>
> That's a different issue. The original question was about the splash screen and
> specifically about emacs-version.
Sorry; wasn't careful. Personally I don't care much about at all for
splash-screen, I don't even see it. I do use "about emacs-version".
Since I run Emacs directly from it's source folder, I usually do C-h C-a
to confirm it compiled

> I see no reason whatsoever to show information
> about the native compilation there, as it's a minor feature that moreover has no
> effect at all until some Lisp files are compiled with it. Besides, the splash
> screen is already too crowded.
I have no opinion for splash-screen whatsoever; mine is disabled anyway
:-).

> If you are saying that the "About Emacs" display should be redesigned (to make
> it look differently from the splash screen), I might agree, but then (a) please
> show a more detailed proposal, and (b) such a display doesn't need the change to
> be in emacs-version, it can use the other variables which divulge the details of
> the build and its configuration.
Ok. I'll think about, but I don't promise.

> Btw, in line with the recent "let's be like other apps" trend, I suggest to look
> at what other apps do in their "About" display: I have the impression that this
> fashion is on its way out.
I agree; I never look at those screens myself; so it is not so much
about "being like other apps". To me it is usefull to quickly see
compilation date of Emacs after the compile. I don't longer install
Emacs in system dir (no make install); I configured my system to run Emacs
directly from the "src" folder, so for me it is informational to see I
have restarted newly compiled version.

> Bottom line: you've effectively changed the subject, so I suggest to
> do that explicitly, and start a new thread/issue.
Yes sorry about that. If I get to make a proposal for new looks; I will
make a suggestion thread. For the now, you can let it die :).

Message #49 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, arthur.miller <at> live.com, akrl <at> sdf.org
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50;
 feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 17:27:20 +0300

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 00:47:04 -0700
> Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
> 
> > as it's a minor feature that moreover has no effect at all until some
> > Lisp files are compiled with it.
> 
> AFAICT, when using the native-comp branch, Lisp files are automatically
> compiled without me having to do anything.

That'd be a misfeature, I think: it means that users who build their
own Emacs will have their build take hours.  I'd prefer to have an
option to delay native compilation to some later time, ideally have it
JIT-compiled, like Guile does.

Is this possible?

Message #52 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>,
 arthur.miller <at> live.com
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50;
 feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 14:54:31 +0000

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
>> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 00:47:04 -0700
>> Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
>> 
>> > as it's a minor feature that moreover has no effect at all until some
>> > Lisp files are compiled with it.
>> 
>> AFAICT, when using the native-comp branch, Lisp files are automatically
>> compiled without me having to do anything.
>
> That'd be a misfeature, I think: it means that users who build their
> own Emacs will have their build take hours.  I'd prefer to have an
> option to delay native compilation to some later time, ideally have it
> JIT-compiled, like Guile does.
>
> Is this possible?

The only files that is mandatory to have compiled Ahead of Time are the
one dumped, the rest of emacs is up to the user to do them Aot or not.

Right I'm gonna set the default so that the bare minimum is compiled
AoT.

That said I think what Stefan meant is precisely that compilation is
happening automatically Jit like with no user intervention.

  Andrea

Message #55 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas <at> gmail.com, arthur.miller <at> live.com
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50;
 feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 18:25:21 +0300

> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>, arthur.miller <at> live.com,
>         43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 14:54:31 +0000
> 
> >> AFAICT, when using the native-comp branch, Lisp files are automatically
> >> compiled without me having to do anything.
> >
> > That'd be a misfeature, I think: it means that users who build their
> > own Emacs will have their build take hours.  I'd prefer to have an
> > option to delay native compilation to some later time, ideally have it
> > JIT-compiled, like Guile does.
> >
> > Is this possible?
> 
> The only files that is mandatory to have compiled Ahead of Time are the
> one dumped

Why do these have to be compiled ahead of time?

> That said I think what Stefan meant is precisely that compilation is
> happening automatically Jit like with no user intervention.

And that can be turned on and off as the user sees fit?  If so, that's
why I said that the native-compilation part is not important to have
in the version description, only in the set of supported features.

Message #58 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas <at> gmail.com, arthur.miller <at> live.com
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50;
 feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 16:02:01 +0000

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
>> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>, arthur.miller <at> live.com,
>>         43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 14:54:31 +0000
>> 
>> >> AFAICT, when using the native-comp branch, Lisp files are automatically
>> >> compiled without me having to do anything.
>> >
>> > That'd be a misfeature, I think: it means that users who build their
>> > own Emacs will have their build take hours.  I'd prefer to have an
>> > option to delay native compilation to some later time, ideally have it
>> > JIT-compiled, like Guile does.
>> >
>> > Is this possible?
>> 
>> The only files that is mandatory to have compiled Ahead of Time are the
>> one dumped
>
> Why do these have to be compiled ahead of time?

Nothing technically prevents to have the native compiler at disposal on
a system that is entirely and exclusively byte compiled, is just a
configuration that ATM we do not expose (I think we'll do it).

It can be useful (actually *it is* every time the native compiler fails
to boo-strap) but is not something an average user would want to use.

>> That said I think what Stefan meant is precisely that compilation is
>> happening automatically Jit like with no user intervention.
>
> And that can be turned on and off as the user sees fit?  If so, that's
> why I said that the native-compilation part is not important to have
> in the version description, only in the set of supported features.

The user can turn deferred compilation off (by default is on).
According to this metric any feature that can be partially or completely
disabled is not worth to be mentioned there, even if is a rework of the
execution engine.  That's maybe correct, if you like to suggest a more
appropriate place to put this information that is evident to the user I
would be appreciated that.  I've opened #43269 to discuss this.

Thanks!

  Andrea

Message #61 received at 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
Cc: 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas <at> gmail.com, arthur.miller <at> live.com
Subject: Re: bug#43255: 28.0.50;
 feature/native-comp void-function subr-native-lambda-list
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 19:21:23 +0300

> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl <at> sdf.org>
> Cc: stefankangas <at> gmail.com, arthur.miller <at> live.com, 43255 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 16:02:01 +0000
> 
> The user can turn deferred compilation off (by default is on).
> According to this metric any feature that can be partially or completely
> disabled is not worth to be mentioned there, even if is a rework of the
> execution engine.  That's maybe correct, if you like to suggest a more
> appropriate place to put this information that is evident to the user I
> would be appreciated that.  I've opened #43269 to discuss this.

I think we already have a suggestion: to redesign the "About Emacs"
screen, so that instead of showing the splash screen again, it could
say something more detailed about the build and the features that this
build supports.

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