From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 30 12:13:21 2020 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2020 16:13:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50634 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kCPxI-0006qO-MQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 12:13:20 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:36942) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kCPxG-0006qF-TI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 12:13:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36714) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kCPxG-0003DZ-Mz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 12:13:18 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:53144) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kCPxE-0002bZ-Lr for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 12:13:18 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 07UGAn3V068232 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:13:15 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=vqxfx4I0F+HxjS9Wkh9kUIQsRSwfyeeiTYoV6Yr1diw=; b=xISGQjIg1iLCgep+qEeLKe5CFoPISutmr78ZU0VamHFKWBhfv62rLH/drI4gNnsIzcpS VG5l0zMYodgKaRq7LYmt3vdFQQ29ulTFYK8dIwDIQILznAmd0STg/6op0DRCUvyNU3/e 8OJsvKUaVMpl2eI0szKHRnawyNKTnN1+m0CI3jLc2MukINLvMMjCf+2dNbfVv5KKYCFS gw8P7gMe2INhgD32eiziw5w18OQAFj8jlKdht5e1CFZsyWTjw0Z70xu4h5jxn9wK74d0 yn7zhQg7HU7Bzcw/M5yoOr4yoT0Oa1DnJLPyhkBc6OEK005wnoFTKudR/SLVeNVqs2Op Fg== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 337qrha6s8-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:13:14 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 07UGAUbt157842 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:13:14 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3380wwx19e-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:13:14 +0000 Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 07UGD8XQ022488 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:13:13 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4bdb7e9b-fe4c-41e6-98c9-be4761fa2977@default> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:13:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 26.3; Info menu X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5044.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9729 signatures=668679 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=875 adultscore=0 suspectscore=1 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2008300130 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9729 signatures=668679 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=879 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1015 suspectscore=1 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2008300130 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=156.151.31.85; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=userp2120.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/08/30 12:13:15 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Please consider updating the Info menu. For one thing, it should have an item for incremental search, which nowadays is far more useful than `s'. Most important is to promote use of the Index. Consider putting this submenu first in the menu. Follow it with other search/lookup items. Put navigation keys later in the menu. Maybe organize into submenus: Index, Search, Menu Item, History, Navigation. As it is now, the menu is cluttered with navigation keys. Navigation can be last, IMO, especially as it's covered also by the header and breadcrumbs. Findig `l' and `r' is more important, and more difficult, than finding `n' etc. The most important key to promote is `i'. In a way, it's too bad that this is in a submenu (Index). If (nonincremental) `Search Next' is to be in the menu then please show its key explicitly as `s'. The menu should serve especially as a bridge to using keyboard keys - for discovery. Don't encourage or force users to repeatedly use menu item `Search Next'. Consider giving a key binding to `info-apropos'. (I bind it to `a' in `info+.el'.) Consider changing the name of item `Reference' to `Related' or `Follow Link' or something else that users might better understand than `Reference'. Please change "indices" to "indexes" (everywhere). Just google for "indexes versus indices" to see why (including, but not limited to, the fact that Emacs uses American English). Finally, at least on MS Windows, the `l' and `I' keys shown as shortcuts are difficult or impossible to distinguish. And the right arrow for a submenu is difficult to distinguish from character `>' (the latter is ever-so-slightly farther to the right). Dunno whether something can be done about this problem, but IMO we should try to do better. HTH. In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2019-08-29 Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.18362 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 30 18:21:00 2020 Received: (at 43115) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2020 22:21:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50927 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kCVh6-0000fv-1d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:21:00 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:39880) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kCVh3-0000fh-Nn for 43115@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:20:58 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 07UMDTvW178231 for <43115@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:20:50 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=lEv1n6LivM0Xxs+dlmeZPan0y7jYRkns2z0/ZQIxJt0=; b=OmApBzEv40SKdDllgoBfXOsMKjUCwPKD+WhQAPFfdOw8yUb7zroYCap/Mw8O5SN44Kzs TcdE42E2xC+Z6u4Fu+aa3kafmNwS6CWl3CUH4T5n49YkodGxHkWM7h5FEHR1YRbdq8oy 1DtPRGAWkH43/SGhn9HRAXHykTlD0mSxLXyBpsMUIGl05bQvrz06iy7pf0C+eIdrmkpt RfTxyq5Ey2wEojtG30dZESMqp9xbY1Nfkhh3F/ehx+85AFbjqzD3Xp0Kb+Ow+0Vy2fil ie8qtvJEOGvlBzM63M2+i0KTaLqtuKu9OF1DAv2bBevHIEXZ1F45/vnJUaxGIpuqM6xF SQ== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 337qrhajmb-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <43115@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:20:50 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 07UMKomj192913 for <43115@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:20:50 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3380wxhub9-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for <43115@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:20:49 +0000 Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 07UMKmFj019645 for <43115@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:20:48 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <32cd9d1b-8918-41b5-9c6c-4710b4be09bb@default> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:20:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: 43115@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#43115: 26.3; Info menu References: <4bdb7e9b-fe4c-41e6-98c9-be4761fa2977@default> In-Reply-To: <4bdb7e9b-fe4c-41e6-98c9-be4761fa2977@default> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5044.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9729 signatures=668679 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=837 adultscore=0 suspectscore=13 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2008300181 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9729 signatures=668679 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=838 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=13 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2008300180 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43115 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > If (nonincremental) `Search Next' is to be in the menu then please show > its key explicitly as `s'. The menu should serve especially as a bridge > to using keyboard keys - for discovery. Don't encourage or force users > to repeatedly use menu item `Search Next'. This part didn't make sense; sorry. Scratch that.