From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 20:40:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.159138957815425 (code B ref -1); Fri, 05 Jun 2020 20:40:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jun 2020 20:39:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50027 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhJ7p-00040j-Kc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 16:39:37 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:37542) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhJ7m-00040a-Va for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 16:39:35 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40654) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jhJ7m-0008BQ-Ns for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 16:39:34 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:52430) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jhJ7l-00033L-IR for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 16:39:34 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 055KahxW015015 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 20:39:31 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=66pxRLVmd+1woi3nAPNl+K5ahiReKAmoLpNzfdSQdXo=; b=Bqm5LZQ1af0KkS880S/byWAw5T/1JrVe5Xiy2QtHYHir6hjfEcDSmzc78rf7/9sIyd+U UMNunlGZ+31JYModctUalmhEJBTsipgHGpCUAbQ22Zh8QDUQuayNbc3Z45ntWGkPcRQ5 NQR25q9tRz3r9LfamZo2oKpo38AJ6wTq+XcfKTqB1oh9nMGi5cV+bJxYqTGNLh8GzBEN gTzImy3m7yErd6kFnba3r6eOkwzbhqoyxYullNf2FqeOQ67SY80VtSN1/QkQbmM9afP9 1CaPYVVSxODq78ZPPHuAhkK4FITiPLwvx5ZvL+Dh8sZqgNwzw6QhunfPD9+x6G6XS0MZ dw== Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31f91dvnt0-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 20:39:31 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 055KcAWL163878 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 20:39:30 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31f927prv4-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 20:39:30 +0000 Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 055KdTnW031525 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 20:39:30 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 13:39:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9643 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=1 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006050153 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9643 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1015 cotscore=-2147483648 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006050153 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=141.146.126.78; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2120.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/06/05 16:39:32 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) The doc needs improvement when describing calling the mode from Lisp. 1. The doc string of `define-minor-mode' says this: When called from Lisp, the mode command toggles the mode if the argument is `toggle', disables the mode if the argument is a non-positive integer, and enables the mode otherwise (including if the argument is omitted or nil or a positive integer). This is wrong (incomplete). It disables the mode if the `prefix-numeric-value' of ARG <=3D 0, not if ARG is a non-positive integer. The code does this: (prefix-numeric-value arg). So if you pass the symbol `-' as ARG then the mode is disabled. 1. The (default) doc string produced by `define-minor-mode' says this: If called from Lisp, enable the mode if ARG is omitted or nil, and toggle it if ARG is `toggle'. Again, this is wrong (incomplete). It doesn't say that if ARG is non-nil other than `toggle' then disable the mode if the `prefix-numeric-value' of ARG <=3D 0, and enable it if the `prefix-numeric-value' of ARG > 0. 3. The Elisp manual doc says this (node `Defining Minor Modes'): From Lisp, an argument of 'toggle' toggles the mode, whereas an omitted or 'nil' argument enables the mode. Again, this is wrong (incomplete). * It says nothing about how the mode is disabled when called from Lisp. It should say that an ARG whose `prefix-numeric-value' is non-positive disables the mode. * It should say that an ARG whose `prefix-numeric-value' is non-positive enables the mode. In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2019-08-29 Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.18362 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 00:03:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.15914017239928 (code B ref 41727); Sat, 06 Jun 2020 00:03:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jun 2020 00:02:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50360 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhMHj-0002a4-Ky for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 20:02:03 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:51648) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhMHh-0002ZY-H5 for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 20:02:01 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 055NwEwY067152 for <41727@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 00:01:55 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=Ue5Q5R+XiAesqj621U1EkCMU/eDYOvLgM7fiq31i9CM=; b=oOMOpu4hQ9kx6IZicgXoHXm4iVz3GWnMb3OocjP3/2rd5kY7DT29NIy/7dsggNmjTOXO aoDBS2w9URbXS8oiZIuGScQpFkbl5rQ/JoSbFWu3JEwJXHxJ6lo/zbE9hiVioh2rhC72 b79GlfRScvZhBhdWF8a11qcBmMASNLZYvonBSeZWXDx8KqX5s1TKR3pPa+fbYqq4LzE8 wD/8zbQ22BU7muCH1njQQxtwy0G0vXxbRL3z8D/MWfH71E+QfbbQMfzzojhtGGXR1/3t j70NjWaW6EU1QSM8xcRL5Z39Iz9omColqtdMTUYBFj8riUe9TkUWIpTdn46nyNqLnSW9 oA== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31f9265357-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for <41727@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 00:01:55 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 055NvdBg195636 for <41727@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 00:01:54 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31f92629py-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for <41727@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 00:01:54 +0000 Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 05601nD7027472 for <41727@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 00:01:54 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <31a1c4f0-b92e-4ec6-8c2f-c4856f70b301@default> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:01:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> In-Reply-To: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9643 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=13 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006050178 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9643 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=13 cotscore=-2147483648 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1011 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 spamscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006050178 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) For the (default) doc string of a minor mode, I think something like this should take care of it. Interactively, toggle the mode. But with a prefix arg, enable the mode if the numeric value is positive, and disable it otherwise. If called from Lisp, toggle the mode if the optional arg is 'toggle'. Otherwise, handle it as the prefix arg: disable the mode if `prefix-numeric-value' of the arg is non-positive, and enable it otherwise. This implies that if the arg is nil or absent then enable the mode. ___ Ideally, we would have a way to provide a custom doc string that also included this info somehow. Maybe the doc string of `define-minor-mode' could show the default doc string and suggest that if you provide your own doc string you include the same or similar information, if appropriate. (And it might generally be good if the Lisp info were at the end of the doc string.) From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 06:15:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.159142405012076 (code B ref 41727); Sat, 06 Jun 2020 06:15:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jun 2020 06:14:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50538 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhS5q-00038i-Cq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 02:14:10 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52308) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhS5o-00038W-Cx for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 02:14:08 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:57014) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jhS5i-0006tJ-Sf; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 02:14:02 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3199 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jhS5i-0002Y5-67; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 02:14:02 -0400 Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 09:13:53 +0300 Message-Id: <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> (message from Drew Adams on Fri, 5 Jun 2020 13:39:27 -0700 (PDT)) References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 13:39:27 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > > The doc needs improvement when describing calling the mode from Lisp. > > 1. The doc string of `define-minor-mode' says this: > > When called from Lisp, the mode command toggles the mode if the > argument is `toggle', disables the mode if the argument is a > non-positive integer, and enables the mode otherwise (including if > the argument is omitted or nil or a positive integer). It actually says this: Interactively with no prefix argument, it toggles the mode. A prefix argument enables the mode if the argument is positive, and disables it otherwise. When called from Lisp, the mode command toggles the mode if the argument is ‘toggle’, disables the mode if the argument is a non-positive integer, and enables the mode otherwise (including if the argument is omitted or nil or a positive integer). > 3. The Elisp manual doc says this (node `Defining Minor Modes'): > > From Lisp, an argument of 'toggle' toggles the mode, whereas an > omitted or 'nil' argument enables the mode. It actually says this: The toggle command takes one optional (prefix) argument. If called interactively with no argument it toggles the mode on or off. A positive prefix argument enables the mode, any other prefix argument disables it. From Lisp, an argument of ‘toggle’ toggles the mode, whereas an omitted or ‘nil’ argument enables the mode. Are you reading obsolete docs? From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 16:46:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.159146195918436 (code B ref 41727); Sat, 06 Jun 2020 16:46:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jun 2020 16:45:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52347 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhbxH-0004nI-Ap for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 12:45:59 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:39664) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhbxF-0004n4-Qq for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 12:45:58 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 056GhRHw074189; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 16:45:51 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=4lFdr9i3ygUBR1f+9zxsAri3tYj09JAsFBzpaMxsBME=; b=pGdSstJN/HVsyoPKsz5DXahlaYFAgPVwQnbQOXnFpv119r5XMcqZE3OA0NCsErjheGYG JtdYqMPc/upe3+hRV3z6ROaoaKV1aI+ci9nQP8mbM2Zp2YlXVlnqhKzlRxnIUf8kl9/G jA7Z2hfjTxScl6dNZzR1bHfBpTrRgWCVTyQ2nSYtiF2ijxc5op4ks6BXMzpRcUqBJF19 8hNVASEo764OZqUygZRXMj+FoEj4/0XMAajMPWqIwXO0GOgOdPSJ3tYU9Z2nWg9G8AOZ 4uX5pys1kA5ujORYe46JyJ2QUSg0g3/ITMz9RWetWxinY1z5+1ALViK+lvE5KmyZxQex Lg== Received: from userp3030.oracle.com (userp3030.oracle.com [156.151.31.80]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31g33ksfc3-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 06 Jun 2020 16:45:51 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 056GdU1v191787; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 16:45:51 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31g08r2qr9-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 06 Jun 2020 16:45:51 +0000 Received: from abhmp0011.oracle.com (abhmp0011.oracle.com [141.146.116.17]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 056GjoLj004824; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 16:45:50 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 09:45:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9644 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006060132 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9644 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 cotscore=-2147483648 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006060132 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > The doc needs improvement when describing calling the mode from Lisp. > > > > 1. The doc string of `define-minor-mode' says this: > > > > When called from Lisp, the mode command toggles the mode if the > > argument is `toggle', disables the mode if the argument is a > > non-positive integer, and enables the mode otherwise (including if > > the argument is omitted or nil or a positive integer). >=20 > It actually says this: > Interactively with no prefix argument, it toggles the mode. > A prefix argument enables the mode if the argument is positive, > and disables it otherwise. >=20 > Yes, and? The point was about what the doc says about a call from Lisp. > > 3. The Elisp manual doc says this (node `Defining Minor Modes'): > > > > From Lisp, an argument of 'toggle' toggles the mode, whereas an > > omitted or 'nil' argument enables the mode. >=20 > It actually says this: > The toggle command takes one optional (prefix) argument. If called > interactively with no argument it toggles the mode on or off. A > positive prefix argument enables the mode, any other prefix > argument disables it. > > Yes, and? The point was about what the doc says about a call from Lisp. The bug report doesn't find fault with the description of the interactive behavior. And my follow-up message suggests text for the doc string that I think is accurate and complete, and it improves the description of the interactive handling as well. The bug report is about the content/message/info, though, not the wording. If you don't like the wording of my suggestion, some other wording that provides as accurate and complete a description will be fine. Thx. > Are you reading obsolete docs? I'm reading the 26.3 docs, as suggested by the report: In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2019-08-29 Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.18362 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 18:57:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.15914698066117 (code B ref 41727); Sat, 06 Jun 2020 18:57:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jun 2020 18:56:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52468 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhdzq-0001ab-6q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 14:56:46 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:55292) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhdzo-0001aP-7s for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 14:56:44 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:36582) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jhdzi-0008Hs-QY; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 14:56:38 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3739 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jhdzh-0005As-I8; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 14:56:38 -0400 Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 21:56:30 +0300 Message-Id: <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> (message from Drew Adams on Sat, 6 Jun 2020 09:45:46 -0700 (PDT)) References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 09:45:46 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > The doc needs improvement when describing calling the mode from Lisp. > > > > > > 1. The doc string of `define-minor-mode' says this: > > > > > > When called from Lisp, the mode command toggles the mode if the > > > argument is `toggle', disables the mode if the argument is a > > > non-positive integer, and enables the mode otherwise (including if > > > the argument is omitted or nil or a positive integer). > > > > It actually says this: > > Interactively with no prefix argument, it toggles the mode. > > A prefix argument enables the mode if the argument is positive, > > and disables it otherwise. > > > > > > Yes, and? The point was about what the doc says about > a call from Lisp. My point was that you take the text out of its context, and that context spells out what you say is missing. This is not the first time you raise this issue, and the argument always goes the same way. I wish you'd stopped these repeated complaints about the same thing. > > Are you reading obsolete docs? > > I'm reading the 26.3 docs, as suggested by the report: The latest sources seem to be different. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2020 20:40:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.159147600115984 (code B ref 41727); Sat, 06 Jun 2020 20:40:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jun 2020 20:40:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52578 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhfbX-00049M-NM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 16:40:01 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:37794) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhfbW-000498-7Q for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Jun 2020 16:39:46 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 056KbO5c013236; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 20:39:39 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=iYCtILekFuLdLwjGdvGVGHudoUy5SJl7gN+/S0cE25Y=; b=VCkwjXgaLi/g6vb8z3EUKlCvKk5EA64IgTaIpZ111U4EQK6jGtVRWPdXrpE/epSQPgiE Kvgo8fg6gs8oyy9Z1ttBWxSO7B16Y6s3CzU/YX5t62FGZktEf78mDAJYgnhmiN0UejON K4VnJ9r6dKioHb3F6lUBH+u7q/3Cz6VxBdK3I/Ggf8cas6j0Gq3Aq+6ui1g7kR77YLA7 2BvdeMaG7Z3tIwW74gPB0qZrD/58X9mSEyZAx79Y8Kv+TIhFrho9X9cCCaETQ89626CA Ws20n9UqxQZ9LV6M+G5DfxXnTSwfmCecwGnOUhhcOOOq92FLv3YmmHqaneBLlpRQ3z07 lg== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31g33kstac-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 06 Jun 2020 20:39:39 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 056KcCji117993; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 20:39:38 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31g2y2wkak-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 06 Jun 2020 20:39:38 +0000 Received: from abhmp0011.oracle.com (abhmp0011.oracle.com [141.146.116.17]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 056KdXNW005095; Sat, 6 Jun 2020 20:39:38 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <89ae5145-2b1c-46c2-9e71-f296579306ba@default> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 13:39:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <<963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default>> <<83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org>> <<9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default>> <<838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9644 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=783 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006060165 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9644 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 cotscore=-2147483648 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=800 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006060165 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > My point was that you take the text out of its context, and that > context spells out what you say is missing. No, it does not. It does not at all say what I say is missing from the description of the Lisp-call behavior. > This is not the first time you raise this issue, and the argument > always goes the same way. I wish you'd stopped these repeated > complaints about the same thing. I've never made such a "complaint" before. Please point to one such, if you think doing so really adds value here. Or is your effort only to argue ad hominem, as if I'm doing something bad, and have done it "repeated"ly? How about addressing the actual bug report? You tell me how the existing text (cited by both you and me) correctly and completely describes the Lisp behavior. Passing symbol `-' isn't passing an integer, and so on. Now, if you just don't want to fix the text, that's another story. But I think you'll find it hard to argue that the report is mistaken and the text is accurate and complete. And I hope you realize that the handling of the arg to `define-minor-mode' has been the subject of a fair amount of confusion. There have been several attempts to improve the doc. But it's still not as clear and helpful as it should be. And the fix is simple: say the missing bits wrt the Lisp case. > > > Are you reading obsolete docs? > > > > I'm reading the 26.3 docs, as suggested by the report: >=20 > The latest sources seem to be different. Different from what? I stated that what you wrote is exactly the text I was referring to, verbatim. You simply added the text about the interactive case. AFAICT, we're talking about exactly the same text, in the same release, 26.3. I wonder if you're actually reading what I wrote. The text you quote is exactly the text that suffers from the problem I raised. The text about the interactive case in no way helps describe the missing parts of the case for the Lisp behavior. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:05:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.159152426519908 (code B ref 41727); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:05:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2020 10:04:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53372 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhsAD-0005B2-JJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 06:04:25 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:36075) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhsAC-0005An-4Z for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 06:04:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1591524251; bh=jFRWIBuFXVQvmFkNE8/yJKFE9tqCTtEpd0JJhvoqrpY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=js6w6BBh4sD+MzIAa8h7MDeM3vcB3FuxEBdOOo/zs5dI8Yx44gzUVXeOBBtP1O/bk u6sCz6onKnAi4c7Fd6M2SfEqdfJbh/kt5ffUNE6OqZkUpF0J9Mjx08VuUb+Vay3mMx duKiUy+hDVRhXbkUY+x3hXB0mpttumG87qstaocw= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.217.119.187]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MoeY7-1jAwzK2tnF-00otLh; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:04:11 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <31a1c4f0-b92e-4ec6-8c2f-c4856f70b301@default> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:04:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: <31a1c4f0-b92e-4ec6-8c2f-c4856f70b301@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:01:45 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <871rmrchut.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:bieiJHdEEojELK2AMl4wOnT6G6/lqMJNZ6cEVLeGk2uyO1VwP6J ZPY4GtQ5rkPagx81bdKj1XaiUPn1KG2Wu4WOdUUFgmQq7zIjZxK0GU3L4K90RXDB2tKy/4k 27onvyYLIiEeZRRELgrAMxApoqAALoOru3RN0RDgWYTQVEe6oEN+cffQQ6e47DXgMzEitq6 rl/R3SGFbAEuKCmtUXUKw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:D8I7ZMyWHcg=:2u/A2sgNufMWUv/TAkbfJd +ebS5GrSGf9o6GNI5ttrEjHt66wsuM2oYTbEEowTsHMEE7MyfGGPFa1o3+XkHEpwdQUygKMcA uw8oCM+PCkg9Qq5ByOulq9mmeuJ8qIdzRVQI/mlfyZ8ciOqsdcvb9tPnUGW/OG/D5X1Jqhq5V Fzlp8XXBOtJ2nZhoFRrGS8tSn3qgL+O5X/s7UcPoqhMw5DLytKVrprCh79bucMulbVqtPXPGl WXOj20ljLOd51PDuuXnUV1WHbCySyDdLTspfLfFUdhYQF75hjOYSM1q28ELPdKh8VAkyfEjPZ 8TI5ZHDDd2F9NnsWiwiR+4cZdtak6AgudPPjmYuJYu417KETfIFl+k2Ep5FLAhJs7hQdbVbcc gczfL5atBtaZh1sT8hWUdCgcXhweAvJL1yIFUGuBTqpPDoNKRgf6PRjIO4rJpHRH3olAB2hZx hWhIfoPKI3Ar+GzOqV4s6WfoAX+nHGGPaXtL5UFx2lkPD7V9+v3dXSq8lNWQTlE3TQFvrxvIU JfCcKGEuvxvXUQI0AAcR6ci4egHT6pJ3AqjzNzM0PP9pkdkpOzcJ/vDRI+aJdgP1EhXlPyMIy rnFUBhSG/tf5g9X/pzXvou/be8ENnikEfYEx2f9eJ/EU9+I2esHOyNjdQ1DuiGo8VPKjEn+Rv j0l9Ly3MzFo4tO1Lx5k9oqNHLbmxjU+Cb4ZddJYsI0Ggl3NXLQ6qQBWfr0/JLIDjRBfrwPk9L i9idSQVuAaW3v/O8EyIQzu5LvlS/ikjQkPAnVWJ3FJnmNfju5+zLKfdjx6r+5tIK3UUMc1q7g XrdjW9Z1M+CTrBBxZUJaJKlXm3AK68sLjVlmIV9iRZMDtmSooiJ5XtmcdQ07Wg7VEEnSEsRI2 EYOWc9I7R7ZOhQjV81IZXgSHIXmFrZRtriHj6ctr70TRnlipz4n6Gu9XopM2kNtKYgD/6dPBY Mgtg750t7BScacdDb7gp0Mn04Fawyoq1aymfbdXsh4ebsmeXgJLcPDr5kKNcUk4S6oyU2BrVA s4vU1SoFo0L3h+HvPkiRRvVwaP0R6npUUNPCceBUz/f8nnw9bMBLegNcxcrErxzK5gdpG838A IiodOgZ+F7M6xPRxSTz90NGPOwiRWs+IhRnumZMuRnUCzCdlGUujLPX+k4CTPRXR9L4Ml+rvc j+v6wjle+V/gmBrcKUyZK/zKOdYdf6+GBIIIhsiO8+8f8cJxWo4HHVE9gCeaMEsGbkpeB7iBK 8s4SvIHoaK0y22EImkw9Dus1n+rUJIQ4Igy1/Aw== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > Ideally, we would have a way to provide a custom doc > string that also included this info somehow. Are you aware of `easy-mmode--arg-docstring'? Michael. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:09:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.159152450420303 (code B ref 41727); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:09:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2020 10:08:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53381 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhsE4-0005HP-AO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 06:08:24 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:56569) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhsE2-0005HB-DD for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 06:08:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1591524489; bh=aXK1kg8SW+A1s8Gu6mXiyXbfEgCjbtk30/gQZORwyw0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=lalQjbfFq2bUTxQeR35BOYytXPZURjvzzxzHdrmWONjFb+HKVzBKE8uKg3mNijBn7 qN0x/itsOqXmIZ9qr8thGHTfcajVyPLMK4hDVPT2J8dgxs6+Phu/YkTBEyn4LbUNoW 8dFaHIob+3K/v/2XNg9qrtF2j4RxHMK+71PjHNDE= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.217.119.187]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb004 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MLDEn-1ji9Ky05Sb-000Heo; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:08:09 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:08:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 06 Jun 2020 21:56:30 +0300") Message-ID: <87wo4jb33s.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:aT9QNqKg6F4UBTUEXeBkt/yhdx2TgMmRT8g9527HZVgJ6vGLtJz wrtkpKvWVs/cZLd8l6k0KK0qKTFUwJ3oP7wUZ+N0S+au3FEYZhqRbTJxi++1IwlNgbHXm+/ PG21N1B5v61S89rhqF4BgWy39umeutTjOIBquau+uXfDh6b8yLX+4p2n7tJLVDRr8U4gVsP RvjVR/InBjG+pNjogQOog== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:19hlyMplc0o=:Q61eHipFiRGHrRZXxsBWzQ IDcClgc6YUI9Bd7dvQmZ8iCvugqaUWnGDp7eHhQvFMpQeDhkb5kPjmHh6YPOJS5IAxE2q2wFe 9690hOOljyYXwtqlFsIYVINK0RV1+bruGx57dAQpeNwUMGbnLLdgbTg8c0qM94LQoLvM/PXFn Wm7/3MRBs4CuN9/sKvGpqy88nphyVJHhKwB1bGZxKDaxqxYondJ5Lnr8cdWj+pfHv25WlfzRT TxTUVKa9WwpBHFMy1u5x67OghCRetf5/zeHSh80CqIVHBQHs8UGej/JLjIrTtXljYleCLeSc+ /t23+pYzzBvoKTcW9VudZMQvy2cfgwv6tTXU/z7hcpNz+hxUez1/qUlLmhh25GWJvRhVMKOKT bLGjJ8m2Qm5W00daz7UpSmRJAGStpPf8/p1ptfTceEpnHFKHJRmlCDNUTkp8az3Mmr11QZxgi Jw9hLxr4SnmcrGZH37ID3jmBfnHIZQ0qd05L9dCXf6mwd3fW6X+02Rpvf1hoV/jjW/iQUIJ+K GErRyk+kP8tb/M2n6kFWPfDHUeFR7K9Cd5W31GwXPQn5jPUObGrQqOdY/G3zWYjVnVytzt7rz Ij+Q/0YDsknPTJAaQwY3svHfNdpvC+39ZDBT6wZd16zunvFO97+F2+TqeVpekaciWa80AudKq 89x84+50zpd15ZInzghmh2xEaTG6c87SpI6y4c3BJgi/r4gHXZ5sdKWkX74klrl2DYv39RfBA AC2fuZTropGYC4I8MJWsJy6EupKWmYMhlYT9PYSYM6brjDetKrGkPmsxlaLXwbRoxJK40Tiod hfOVxWzIUgCppTSj51fQ5PN22BLl9JVF7jzsYcNGyKZ3nRTkpBQr9eexrVForDQkZDFbTNoSv CPAT5lInpgvkrX7i4EptbeWTAmjNNLf4qbyoTlGv7Odq7iUWqqF4x6/2XxQzhdwcz3K337akl NKQx6htvWX5iuLFChAhYTZ4F+h+11+D1hSKLiGyoRh0jTZk312wIBlLR92dmi39UxoWw8d5dq gU2e0GbNUW1LraVUANDk2+5t7LQk1fPwgVqBGyrkpH+NsK7LvMN4pPKrOj909ZQE3UxVzhpUq gQ3IgdKfxfgjNr9ZX3RTttxBLEH8XKtTtPLRHdWsgpq4kn4Y9icdG8TSjQ8EFoR3fJVWI3L46 C6lWzFamaN34l2ojewmxsDcGG+iAHodMdVZCMjkii2LNstmVb17QXktnulMXoUWWw+1gJkAoQ 3dsgEYohGpPUxBubswEGwuJeBj/4suEv+EbxaRw== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > My point was that you take the text out of its context, and that > context spells out what you say is missing. Just to be sure: you both speak about the sign of the ARG (current text) vs. the sign of (prefix-numeric-value ARG) (as Drew wants)? AFAIU Drew wants to mention that even in the noninteractive case `prefix-numeric-value' is called on the ARG before testing it. Michael. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 14:33:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.159154033822034 (code B ref 41727); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 14:33:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2020 14:32:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54593 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhwLD-0005j1-PB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:32:18 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52990) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhwLB-0005iY-Ls for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:32:01 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:52404) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jhwL6-0004zv-Bz; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:31:56 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3735 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jhwL5-0008Ma-Ht; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:31:56 -0400 Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 17:31:50 +0300 Message-Id: <83y2oz6j6x.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <87wo4jb33s.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:08:07 +0200) References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org> <87wo4jb33s.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: Drew Adams , 41727@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:08:07 +0200 > > AFAIU Drew wants to mention that even in the noninteractive case > `prefix-numeric-value' is called on the ARG before testing it. If that's the essence of the bug report (and I indeed didn't realize that), then I don't think it's a good idea to document this quirk. It looks like an implementation detail to me, if not an outright bug that should be fixed. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 14:46:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.159154113223317 (code B ref 41727); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 14:46:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2020 14:45:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54601 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhwYF-000641-Qj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:45:31 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:40299) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhwYD-00063l-Dp for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 10:45:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1591541122; bh=ljw/6EDUePO/3nlHZTfdUYp7YWzlgaZfaDyDzFK2yEc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=IL06UvJqpBW4Hnh2/TeRWXbGMPU38422VnQs1zzPbs4Esd4t8FySAhlLvpYe8SXb2 EyjDlK6W3l+YaMVnpAGLz4KXD1GjDpzzPIosZXEuhfZImJZEpK0mWyULy818Tl88hS CQMAnrcCBqRcOjpuJtULFd6WjFo28EXLqGeXylk0= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.217.119.187]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb003 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MeSLv-1jJN9x2PCZ-00Q9G2; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:45:22 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org> <87wo4jb33s.fsf@web.de> <83y2oz6j6x.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:45:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83y2oz6j6x.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 07 Jun 2020 17:31:50 +0300") Message-ID: <87sgf7aq9q.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:jWwH5i1eVW67xhjiQG99vDoQM27gL+5YHOxO+QRuRW8i1V3w5k8 eNOokDuCUKB6pgApOrzH73KZqOETv3j+/heJd89I1FGIBN44fbN86WgOEaeJfP3EOqaP6Cr 0GoH9nx3J3q3iDEnXTYDPDjnt/Fx7oDcP9pm5UvY4AKpt3qleIsGMnl/DWR9Eu0Ncl9JgVz kx1hgc4Hz2zQNRVcVJ3aA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:W3SwJrK0YPw=:ifZCe9aFwupKQqnbPi1vZA WYNpTvlQQlqfm7rgkileyRhm9wQb41YbwV279r5+4LFsEP9gqcF3N4gE9ueH03x2EdR3Fr+5C uxVn4Vb81VEtAYuvlxinVvqzd2atTmpS6++eLB1k32PwUcBpqo8o5JsoljtVkqsGB25T7BGZO dDNQElRJphLmqAcJ3nKYEHa2L33V438uuJ+i5E4Lbe6UyUY1Ynns4oJmUiOGXFX7PSorETB5B I5XsvC7qvCby0gH+6McWqhRjNNoZqvk2MHLLWtNYbmxV6iEniCZNMLvqvRz+tlcsu9FL/XL1Q OIhP5zw0D2ez84WXES9hlZ5jrEhI95wlapgirDV1kT1DGAbDayr5yMIKcc6fO+O0U8SCx6XK0 zD689zsVTNl2PRzB0WrSjy2B4s0lN16sO1Bj9N3bwIKVXFhpECxoMkQsRhQAEG9wq+XUZYQ8k HtupVYpBJH+U1TArLuZY+kXyiWzAktwC3RxOpa/h3saFWBmz+vu69gFXWQm2TnXgqeX/rtxuc VrcRdv31fWGBjKCw41nR+nrdDl1puYGF5IT4RVdjHfFRNAiWdDf9yWQKIDgRbT2wYBLFKk7KL Ym4cIfNLFjA3AU+p7aGFjzBJIbSp36E+cmF97IARxVSf7uhYQ7KcRS+HtE1B+qFe52LNNb/9Y ys8cJZT4nOGc1bFYanoWeVCf7I8yH/rWbTc+JhuISS2bQmGG01yYsmXw9PZBz+INkdfbzbIgM Cdt22w8P0Gao/J4y0D5ENAWTp+X/mdxjskSB6Jl39N22s8fN9SXiL5Tifmitk0uPcFcmGzgDx Ix6j+Bt+F0yizBi4A/5gfZw8x5e/H5RE3lrNsva/0LWzrIkEr3dUwdEmub6Scm3+EqVpf1Xtf KVdNN9ZoSN/DOrOT/VPAM2rFqGAFiN+qKZX9Mu+Akkm0kSrwT8MMP8RxNcjvq6Ho7rqMLhX/Z MK0gAIi2YXgO/WmVev4NM1kQwPMBd3q6+P/2AVeaOiHh0V6dyIHLt5Q0hqzE8bjTrWNdfhraZ 2MvPjpBWw/KXBoqsjgtZxeio8NbkXKr7NOkn3vrbUkBkDQwTQD+fJ62rIw+ompzDIwGcv8Thb jlhOUxJRM6CRAxK0H8EvBc9k2DpZ/4yfV4LeA/320WysMZ/4VJjEMMnti5I1FaZfCOjskLccM Y/WJ1MB6ULVa/BBJZnulp+ZTvbNTQheqyR9uZlHENEpOO9hUluULswkMABgLSO5Bk3YCb1w7K eak2es3OuMM6hsQ8mBzboyiu0XaBdLqMgXEhvOg== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > If that's the essence of the bug report (and I indeed didn't realize > that), then I don't think it's a good idea to document this quirk. It > looks like an implementation detail to me, if not an outright bug that > should be fixed. I'm undecided. It means at least that passing an unevaluated prefix arg to the function "works", which may matter in some cases. Michael. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:07:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.15915459947148 (code B ref 41727); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:07:01 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2020 16:06:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54740 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhxog-0001rE-BU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:06:34 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:46012) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhxoe-0001qs-K5 for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:06:33 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 057G45vH068063; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:06:27 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=4dyF+gFe6kmWTYllgyXDcSW/7yqU3aGubwi7trvePyc=; b=SWUDPI/0TRmCdXkky0EMTrGbSf4UPkuB8BfO5ewlGCUhGCiFfMinMgWrsY7STxxR0/w2 ELh2lR8Yfvuyk1k8KFIdpbsB6kXskMuV2IReSTLzznKZ6pT6O1ixdvGRPeFSalwZvbfm DeKdnarYv+rGBDU/zX+wsCHLw57m7h2oWLTjrqKt2nfkzZrrVYsIC+S4h7UaiRWk6cjx nUOXc+qgnrawmlqN63Th46V2vCfqOqYerLv3iAakMSNRfynPCXh8UtffAc+Sbagij15S 2ndYXemQoUjmqWCdjT4DgMUbzpXzT3Ra5qUL3t/wu+pJ2aH0nnAt3D1kHuD92iEENjoG 6w== Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31g33kukuq-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:06:26 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 057FwGG7144509; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:06:26 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31gmwnsw3p-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:06:26 +0000 Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 057G6PRw024434; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:06:25 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <0540c2e4-a177-4a11-b80c-3d51e0c998b7@default> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 09:06:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <31a1c4f0-b92e-4ec6-8c2f-c4856f70b301@default> <871rmrchut.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <871rmrchut.fsf@web.de> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9645 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006070122 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9645 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 cotscore=-2147483648 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006070122 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > Ideally, we would have a way to provide a custom doc > > string that also included this info somehow. >=20 > Are you aware of `easy-mmode--arg-docstring'? No. I've never looked at (or heard of) `easy-mmode'. Thanks. But now that I look at it, in Emacs 26.3, I see no `easy-mmode--arg-docstring'. What am I missing? (BTW, easy-mmode.el uses both "docstring" and "doc-string" as a noun in its doc. Emacs should pick one or the other. IMHO, it should really probably pick "doc string", whatever it picks it should use pretty much everywhere.) From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:09:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen , Eli Zaretskii Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.15915461007324 (code B ref 41727); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:09:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2020 16:08:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54745 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhxqN-0001u4-Nl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:08:19 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:46772) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhxqM-0001tq-Rc for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:08:19 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 057G7lkZ069963; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:08:13 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=53XI24Pwp6y2K0UAD0MOESfEP7141w5QLWLZo7D9Hlo=; b=eCcXuoHI5LVgFZPM5FUGX2ZpSo0jb29MBFLvpC9If4YJAETsDyTXacmNa9YGw6l4uxGi IKuS7pvaEMvZIv0ccqiAKiCwPWT3hux2o4AFrMKv3Q42bIXFd/ZHVwexHo30AHEhQUaF FicFllbeXxn6pdtY/PlR9uhhySwJBmS9lfZl1/F4kq7b6TJ2iz+zWYHR2YT0/+5iAfWp eAyXx4u92YBhrtXOK54sigOvFTwmRC1dNd1GaIKlZmoyjeKS64ENX6hZO6rpVIl2zLIk ROKdswlMTLbf1mg1Rpdlgs+kljIm4TVDZV/enTG2hKkEfV8c8JSpnisVpj0t4YjGmC4D NQ== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31g33kukxt-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:08:13 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 057G7tAO005635; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:08:12 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31gmqk25hh-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:08:12 +0000 Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 057G8AcC005269; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:08:11 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 09:08:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org> <87wo4jb33s.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <87wo4jb33s.fsf@web.de> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9645 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006070123 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9645 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 cotscore=-2147483648 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006070123 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > My point was that you take the text out of its context, and that > > context spells out what you say is missing. >=20 > Just to be sure: you both speak about the sign of the ARG (current text) > vs. the sign of (prefix-numeric-value ARG) (as Drew wants)? AFAIU Drew > wants to mention that even in the noninteractive case > `prefix-numeric-value' is called on the ARG before testing it. Yes, it's the raw prefix arg (or equivalent) that's used, in all cases. And that's not necessarily an integer. And `prefix-numeric-value' is applied to that, to get the effective arg that's used. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:17:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Michael Heerdegen Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.15915465968225 (code B ref 41727); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:17:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2020 16:16:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54765 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhxyO-00028b-A9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:16:36 -0400 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:48964) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhxyN-00028P-NO for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:16:36 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 057GD2WC135906; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:16:30 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=NoWB6WYle8NnpATSw0Oo/1FSu2z6xYqFgbI0DI4qEMQ=; b=vwERta82zX2u++nuNx5pSZhTPj3wTyzQYUvI0QCi2nIBaXsnPSDfzYyjGaEH/JuZDdWC iLcZNMDdl5zSfd0aZvFtpwqtJqQUHBNLHBU2QQFTmGMFWb/b+QXYCnRfy5wfIHs+AWBC sLgPzNxmXJGws1MQorAwK93yrxBsAp82ZWnCLSu66PHMZx57uPlg6rGWk5uHl2izXoi6 XGsx21efuPiCgEK9fhmIoc4/GorqldvlVQzWSE/8Mpc35x1M53iv3WZAa4ZJvVzhoE0D MR+nkNSG6iiBxKJfcVAsOiiSn3rWdY3l2y9PB9RsOlMt2lH7TUP5JH2zdtJt6HeYI6Yq 9g== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31g2jqup34-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:16:30 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 057GESPa052508; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:16:29 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31gmqk2bbg-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:16:29 +0000 Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 057GGSN0027748; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:16:28 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <30c91bcf-044c-4d93-8ca8-bd407d7bd6b0@default> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 09:16:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <<963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org>> <<87wo4jb33s.fsf@web.de>> <<83y2oz6j6x.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83y2oz6j6x.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9645 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006070124 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9645 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 cotscore=-2147483648 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1015 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006070124 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > AFAIU Drew wants to mention that even in the noninteractive case > > `prefix-numeric-value' is called on the ARG before testing it. >=20 > If that's the essence of the bug report (and I indeed didn't realize > that), then I don't think it's a good idea to document this quirk. It > looks like an implementation detail to me, if not an outright bug that > should be fixed. If you don't document it then users won't know how to use it correctly from Lisp (at least not without studying the code). That's misleading enough to make me wonder whether, in that case, it might be better to say nothing at all about the call-from-Lisp case, forcing Lisp users to consult the code. My preference is (obviously) to have the doc tell the whole story: accurate & complete. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:21:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.15915468148616 (code B ref 41727); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:21:01 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2020 16:20:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54774 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhy1u-0002Es-5I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:20:14 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:46473) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhy1r-0002Ef-N7 for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:20:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1591546800; bh=RJzq1kYy4CEgnDTkMRU1lSZF85ful/VhbHe/KVcly3Q=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Wm9F/ZWxp57bdmlWA4BysgAWcY93mxSJ21MmikRgfhpg381+I3EgN7x2b4uzHQonN 84QL3nW2emfOMo/UJKrplJovRGMsN/yjKF5sA49RJdFJRrtkG5H7ETWzA6wkigkVUA usC3tFdHd+Jh4grQ0XzqRplMaNRZUCBR4aFSbJ/4= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.217.119.187]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MDMzM-1jqFkc1o1e-00AbNw; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 18:20:00 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <31a1c4f0-b92e-4ec6-8c2f-c4856f70b301@default> <871rmrchut.fsf@web.de> <0540c2e4-a177-4a11-b80c-3d51e0c998b7@default> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 18:19:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: <0540c2e4-a177-4a11-b80c-3d51e0c998b7@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 7 Jun 2020 09:06:21 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87eeqqc0gg.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:fkNghEpVHeARvspsarq9C90jzUWWspE6xaUQh0VoysUt0mJlKyY LkBMC22nsPGigMvSOS5iNRSP3DjXJrTR06kcrCrmTPEZd5G2+Z5GoZ0i1YkgCMH9eAmR54e QFRs3Gw3aq5+toaQOYb/oytAfgszoQb1oF4bo7qVHXWQ17ESZZ/xs/OxcDZ/a3s7lzAGa3x pq9NS7WJ8Yv1pXjh62F5w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:iC5k83ZLYFI=:p4CyAbYOUOkYgmOQzQlKuK w2uJQsH22NA829gVmL9sIDyByuHbQI6nQ+goNCieO6xFHcNY9BbrDC+QSy0tkcp64Kj3PTrHf 0BAIpjLG8qSur2hPI61ro9DQkwo8VB6mmPYDXsXqZHW7aYxsDO1Euiqh5bDXErAEg/2F0F2Bi 3sZo3j02Xc2RMxikMx515nEf0lLt/By1y9oF1Oepi1YUHohBnUgvcCf026M/JUr9LCtAC3lnJ W13N84NtwcHD8R6FWMlsGSTo6vQiKj/ujpEcUAsyxG5OcBJiCJvdsGEk8oBoub79m3ZdwtQvf opbf06bEoxQu8cFfJ8hLm/rUfXAWCBUZ8NFw5cm84z/kcwImvu9qjR1AHSnFnkeMDFwANDn3d bzQArAdYGG3DtcSC8xh6AuZ1KpFop3evjit4/EV8TwiI2/cSNoBgFxpamV+MMDmgcNbHgGdBW VOsrde2TJ/AplsSAtmynyzTNzCAj5vfbSRI+9FzOf+zEzy0IEvBhMYRGTs5DTspmNql+U2NFR QGscfMVPbFc5yM3m1Xk9CXX60N81wEx5qZWI2laZEeE6Knhk7DKH7kYKNJ5E/bRolCe9p6cP0 2UdrXamF6xBI1f3RX98MvYPlHygrZhFalyu0oZ3D086jgwSmaSvwKPjgAxoxQq6GrJBFzdH+R pDF1jgcRYp0D2/QYWFWu6VgIKuPwAKDSRcnc00f9qLZbapF2a6Sm6g3Gu57td2/RgbMzGgrwE nYWq/jkRJnTd4M0fYntOAzrkI/H4KRqlqHSvzzNotQBmtUyA0E+d/L123bZnCTfdflzGmhzkH jxjjhu2BJMhypyNSmBZpLRT131ttMj6O8MsBBD6n+YAICUm177O4q0+xxtIXGSYEUB1qAwSJ6 VjmjrsjujbobwgWWRYf5oJnA5i3GA9l6e8bptX1dHuF7Vhc9qJEYIfvIRX674B4Ojh0oeiXZB 2yGxJD3HKzKMzSrxFzyvRasVUBIRGbGzuyS+FKzt5NELMhbZfK/pTkLi7Vr2hPWwXQeEGvQB2 FzNuNPzDx2wVCO3olv4s2J+7qFXTmbcbj5TP6J8pJjvPpGePlIkQ11gDXiYbGRLLhb1YzvRM1 LfL6FqyNX8EhQa5IwXSO4vSOsfV6UPVDMHFT05Og59yqRhnf7JFZm3C3qKlHo1qFiuAZF9KwB 7WuBqGyD6EUE2jSpgoNrcWvbx1Zexy+1dqiKG3GW1O468USnzBsZL3o/n5rgArT/xTqe6rRW8 Btcz+/Ex/ZvBMgz6CNXV4sSY9niGf7zBR4+s1yg== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > > Are you aware of `easy-mmode--arg-docstring'? > > No. I've never looked at (or heard of) `easy-mmode'. Isn't `define-minor-mode' defined in "easy-mmode.el"? > But now that I look at it, in Emacs 26.3, I see > no `easy-mmode--arg-docstring'. What am I missing? I guess that's one version to small. It had been introduced when discussing Bug#10754. I can send you current master's version of the file offlist if you want. AFAIU it's the variable you asked for. Michael. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:31:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.15915474309720 (code B ref 41727); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:31:01 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jun 2020 16:30:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54788 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhyBq-0002Wi-Jt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:30:30 -0400 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:54560) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhyBo-0002WW-W4 for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2020 12:30:29 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 057GTLEP156222; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:30:21 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=MFw3owNrVkNbD1NAovtkGAMFxusWI6orz1NGZzR4LhI=; b=vQ3gJdYQfSCbRUMkU1zbJDEZq9D7gAJqHjChCX3/DiD0c5Zv4S7UOL5GKPfZaRwentbA nRWufiyCtwSHLb9u96T3ZPp5oa9Ipv8MKFcVfNvrzolO2l8immM2X4SeXIQfSMBEWidn mKz7e0104eDx71W28uI+PHipN6F7VLNv5LjBB+cVgXaaWhrSsf8ponW0kJmmzyaUPKWv dJAziAhzbV1WQ2XbPQFhr1LgEquRVpvXidlDgrcgCSlmMGjwPK7UgU3f5I8LqIpAYir7 sRLjKrSYUBE/Ay50CzA5tCYltAn3HtFBktX40mYJtMOn4eTnJenZrhu9zjgVvulQ7qtR SQ== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31g2jqupnq-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:30:21 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 057GSEWA159342; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:30:20 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31gn1yj36b-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:30:20 +0000 Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 057GUHeP000646; Sun, 7 Jun 2020 16:30:18 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <34bfb257-e0b2-43a7-adc4-a5c74a87ac52@default> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2020 09:30:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <31a1c4f0-b92e-4ec6-8c2f-c4856f70b301@default> <871rmrchut.fsf@web.de> <0540c2e4-a177-4a11-b80c-3d51e0c998b7@default> <87eeqqc0gg.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <87eeqqc0gg.fsf@web.de> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9645 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006070126 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9645 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 cotscore=-2147483648 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1015 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006070126 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > > Are you aware of `easy-mmode--arg-docstring'? > > > > No. I've never looked at (or heard of) `easy-mmode'. >=20 > Isn't `define-minor-mode' defined in "easy-mmode.el"? Yes. I guess I meant that I haven't looked at much in that file. > > But now that I look at it, in Emacs 26.3, I see > > no `easy-mmode--arg-docstring'. What am I missing? >=20 > I guess that's one version to small. It had been introduced when > discussing Bug#10754. I can send you current master's version of the > file offlist if you want. AFAIU it's the variable you asked for. I have the 27 pretest, so I have (at least some version) of `easy-mmode--arg-docstring'; thx. Yes, that's presumably what I suggest should be changed. And I guess where that Lisp info gets inserted could be reconsidered. This bug report suggests maybe putting it at the end of the doc string. Most calls of a minor-mode command will be interactive. And I'm arguing in favor of making the Lisp description of ARG more correct/complete. Perhaps, especially if that's done, it makes sense to relegate such info to the end. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 17:17:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.159163660431283 (code B ref 41727); Mon, 08 Jun 2020 17:17:01 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jun 2020 17:16:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57780 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jiLO8-00088V-Hy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 13:16:44 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.14]:33223) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jiLO6-00088H-Sq for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 13:16:43 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1591636585; bh=+uhOsHi92V6TFRg1Q/gxow6bm5ru4NAFFd0mDJHRYns=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=cz2vLaKxJR6jX/gbNF+jgLoyWpy5XFIohlF3mi5LHCl9/xKtN7BQb6TZpXkQDjZLS 81MTJrhjM/iz0BcIJHppcWY3YKZyTQFRmaEv0kraJwPNndL2hcdP8RWPaUoXfTPm7G rPL5e45KV6b5+2yVQ2+CY6GMrjevk1E7qmPV7EQs= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.217.119.187]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb004 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MVGow-1jRBXL0xyA-00Ym37; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 19:16:25 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org>> <87wo4jb33s.fsf@web.de>> <83y2oz6j6x.fsf@gnu.org>> <30c91bcf-044c-4d93-8ca8-bd407d7bd6b0@default> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 19:16:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: <30c91bcf-044c-4d93-8ca8-bd407d7bd6b0@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 7 Jun 2020 09:16:25 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87mu5dbhqv.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:V/PhtAbIRJsYVk0iqwj5ivZ2zyDsXupYfKK+xvQTOMDsFY9rv7s lDxtAseADkvvVUooHEhLalpKTGIrjJdD1GJFfCjT50Ix9lh7hbJaCXR3jldhTQrlTC29OHB YZJrKNOVQRXeX+hHyHT9U0gdcqjYNwu8agJssoRzC57FwJ5wdjTnpO1vORDNC3K+5M7CPDZ kkyLVKzBkZQ9b0PbbZCNw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:AAW9a4Kzczc=:OUSWHLtsYlWzeT7ju1I8DE qpfAfAJpr7Hj/R191F3o3kKAxExNgk4pI74jA94Sn6i5N4sQiKrW1LzzK2Om3FXWlvtU85Sw2 EpxtpjK4g06uQ1SKY9P2GXXQbzalOt3N8Az04yB3WJuUC/gRmOQTnNQsN4NKgrxdOi3WtVxJa uf8yH5fOnRA6PDGgg81tVVXbNXpHXg0mDUIZqKGfJc4NH0Wx05CDQn2gsi/40QV1rK5gkCH/4 uFputAiA+xbpG/FswKdYAmaKSmf4ut8udyHCuKgKC92TdIV4wC5vAScTF365vhxSknACjVTmU 6W00botFLjXHujpEc2oz8yLxNQZWBwj1PiFViyvq22yAycJEYvpLNpV2g2MLvogRHNHbm3IIZ Fk8RoGojVHF428Q/FeEEvhQKFx13TrhZM/Ys5CYH/UmFUApFvohVA6CMEXgZVnv+XTLZNMqpy dISAlQNfmecLkIG7khri+4J/PhLC8lXhTSCtBtmP8DdlfzP7c9vWd+5YDmO69MhCSM1QIPpty bYg6HRiuIMmAJmrxkoT8h06nXdGh5AlFrac6kHUHNmQVIedXzrbUGqbteKvN/34Amwyx1mKh1 nSiFk7UrWxewVpSa/o6kJNscNBUYsKv/jfqGNpU2AMowUL1NByxBFgB/z/q+uPs+YtnE5h9fv VZVrBz6UtNxWBIgi+Uk1FebaVOrTEXwpSv8fD/SuYaXbmCffll3aceQb2FtdbkRMX7mVoyMSw jlXYJAwMwzYYF4wkkRLBF+bubEafBDZqKZsvTjsK0BJagcOzsWY9MyKHo4KEyLtXJf1WRxq4w mV1Q+DowFpPctrihT9iHq66wKymytR3B0sRLDvJRIziUo7bkcygRZAlpH3Qtgseb0Tke0d/no 85skBHq4YUmGtEkTCxlz27IIOYrsL1JHkZ7CMZQ6XCW+w/FTxJDxMp1UkKbneNJG81vL+MhkD 8BnorTrgwEF6dbUwOO5Hy1PmIB5hDjbNN1CmMTsIaVBcThlOmr7EK+IFxpyJ4tbkvDC+WGs8p OWry6PuhJjyxGWgOO+QPJLFab4AGWi/Uodnw8gnEPTXzM5NK2Xz7io+d5ccPu0GbyrK9fLe3D f18+FQuEcvgkzO65AnWkDBBqlEvENacaQ4eBPdd46g6fRle+Duxpwy9FtHXel8H1Lr4uHarPA P/2JVSGSQDhCRyIzB7COcKQzCXvyxHHt16t0uSX7n47RLcrujxmglmx19KzRUR7mZzrbCrmkE +LvIqHwehhbzvF4TEk0Bvngesh4/V14zJDRGoPg== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > That's misleading enough to make me wonder whether, > in that case, it might be better to say nothing at > all about the call-from-Lisp case, forcing Lisp > users to consult the code. How about leaving only cases like ARG -> '- undocumented? When called from Lisp, the mode command toggles the mode if the argument is `toggle', disables the mode if the argument is a non-positive integer, and enables the mode if the argument is a positive integer or omitted or nil. Good enough for daily business. And we are lucky: since an additional `prefix-numeric-value' doesn't harm (it's idempotent), it's not a problem if it's called on the arg before passing it to the mode function and by the mode function again. Michael. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2020 17:41:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.15916380551206 (code B ref 41727); Mon, 08 Jun 2020 17:41:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jun 2020 17:40:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57815 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jiLlX-0000JN-0A for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 13:40:55 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:51158) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jiLlU-0000Ir-Rd for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2020 13:40:53 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 058HWi35172838; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 17:40:47 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=YnCDp+zGqeLgvklMfUm3pgdPnHZJ5e4F+VQPxGHjE1s=; b=lvVD2l0ClrxwWEUEuyodxw3fSvmMKLWzm0y++oJfWIqWAyfbpS61bTrALJhaxWhaw+34 O5+SDU+1c9F9i+0Yru/h3FmqvjIyTNmYT/cnlxfA8GeS2vvqADvwtHt5cd5R+fEVc70Z XPigvTZw9K9uvq7ASi+WQ0KbR2IV/1/PQeuCtZegtj/KZ0vOwSLz02cE+J2sSKfPLCpz 6xNwStVQyxxhhlTh8YrKVlmKmM24VDoFEfCTF+YmfbVPSc0tzKx6vr8G1s/fEqPNUPqL j7SS/TUHI7NecHSgTJ93ff+sq3RNp5CCGSSNIuzaKSDt80Ob2ivyOqmpSzIZnaL1CWUV Tw== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31g33m05gf-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 08 Jun 2020 17:40:46 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 058HYJTM055907; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 17:38:46 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31gn23eh7j-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 08 Jun 2020 17:38:46 +0000 Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 058Hch6G028467; Mon, 8 Jun 2020 17:38:45 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <9a2f8463-42a6-4f0c-82d9-de15192fffe2@default> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:38:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org>> <87wo4jb33s.fsf@web.de>> <83y2oz6j6x.fsf@gnu.org>> <30c91bcf-044c-4d93-8ca8-bd407d7bd6b0@default> <87mu5dbhqv.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <87mu5dbhqv.fsf@web.de> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9646 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006080124 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9646 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 cotscore=-2147483648 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006080124 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > That's misleading enough to make me wonder whether, > > in that case, it might be better to say nothing at > > all about the call-from-Lisp case, forcing Lisp > > users to consult the code. >=20 > How about leaving only cases like ARG -> '- undocumented? >=20 > When called from Lisp, the mode command toggles the mode if the argumen= t > is `toggle', disables the mode if the argument is a non-positive > integer, and enables the mode if the argument is a positive integer or > omitted or nil. That's what we say now, and the reason I filed the bug. > Good enough for daily business. ... Not good enough for me. ;-) Consider a case where some command A invokes a minor-mode command B, to turn B on or off for some purpose/extent. Consider the case where A's prefix arg is passed to B, to do that. The programmer writing the Lisp code to define A should know that s?he can just pass the raw prefix arg. The resulting code will be simpler, easier to read, etc. I see no reason at all why we wouldn't provide an accurate (complete) description of what ARG is for Lisp use. What do we gain by not doing this right? From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 07:59:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.159168952718304 (code B ref 41727); Tue, 09 Jun 2020 07:59:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2020 07:58:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58803 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jiZ9j-0004lA-CV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 03:58:47 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:59179) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jiZ9h-0004kp-7l for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 03:58:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1591689513; bh=ijEYh+LpPGiw6cFNv3GL7Z2nUf4KHUyklZ/wJdydj/I=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=T+xe3RXD3zZV3M9lzlzCHB30+a936mUPenSROsh0EJdx1bli0DKWKE0rXkH+myWCP XtpuG1p6WSb8sXe6OOZOHT4eBxwJ6X+gBUP60HnaxZmQhtq10rNEB94ZFCiY9B+MBH lCrAWVdo//BTN091NIf+synGQXMPCZyGUvWfKsOA= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.217.119.187]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N30ZL-1ix6rE1KyT-013FLC; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 09:58:33 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org>> <87wo4jb33s.fsf@web.de>> <83y2oz6j6x.fsf@gnu.org>> <30c91bcf-044c-4d93-8ca8-bd407d7bd6b0@default> <87mu5dbhqv.fsf@web.de> <9a2f8463-42a6-4f0c-82d9-de15192fffe2@default> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 09:58:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: <9a2f8463-42a6-4f0c-82d9-de15192fffe2@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 8 Jun 2020 10:38:43 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87h7vkbrh3.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:TvWclWVPbQectiJYcrdL+kcRpKK0VtiE3Ss+9s70GRVugTiDoy6 7e9mAuySZJXMAZ9gOC7XMtfCakSnicR2tnUGjpmPFmWn7JDzUQhc0Iw5sqzOWUDVXFU+4ie QoFxU3SYQ5bp8moI8pntaZfDYxC1dXqwNXVFnOpPpf3cDdrHdGdlYkf+l+FItu78C199rWQ /T2+W9PD5RQ+BiyIon2xA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:/UaKmx9axEU=:s73Su1QRHqXldpa1gdbX0F xie0xOIFu54Ff3O3I9+40rEBfFQP98+1Tul1yUH2IFWVqz1ekgt5K2CZxriNlSaWCq+AmZuQt DL0v1giAhyZSuW/A5NSFzd7mK9QOSMfllEGLJKHjDhWZZIuECGSlHiZ1JxddqZE+xiqAi7Tup 7GsOm47zTmlnhTtqx7ZGu8w6oC4wGyYPnW8wK5vDptwADveVDssjqFdK+mBviSsRsMqF/kI2+ R0UUdFdNL5CzL8nk1y/vewVu12ffDwPce6qGp18+nF3+3vc/GeDtWGBkrxfYlUPjNuuu/CwAH xdOm2VwpM4JoZs9ht25i1OKpKHCgOXcss37kaPcmJdGOvyeYrlkDIN/hdnEuIWDemPxmjbRBW DdwcDhM4YXU2BVQZ4Boni5Op1QtGP9fYHtg6DgImMJqXNDrxKGmTdjbI8SDkssI5ePcIeRVKH t5neIiDFvXns8AOTnEUaow8MYa+M3OgHQbq+g7Y1CJHNs7sxxKp73DLtrzccITUy99EA5p8Ha 11WLoCkyVwn/lCOcuhZKS1KZULTan/3ovTePvMrcuXNLmBCt4qxvK9ltpUEMqnn/7TvM9KbaI 1Phmk/1qg5JZc4F/cnUwxi45HHwvrWRHpiCiSC4e6xd0/2PekVCbZR/CHM3FDzXyRcisAx0gP jqqZU5FxlDIKvFwzy5YzcIt/i/3XJkvuv7FDmB5nEmHuyIjjG4qa39Ry/mEjIq4A/dcmRJudq 2ZTw0F69wKq5/uWGnjJN1voWazAEXEYSears0y1cF63jpDjeP43HNuGG5XkeCg3vF65fwvxZ1 LFqZ892n0966jgZmc4JlJkks0XaxdWvTC5Zl74e9qOQmuKiCEn9e7HR5cGaOqhxsZPlhmfjj5 L7Zc52wljh5wp2k3NnmMEkk9/ld8vEg9D6Xk9oHZHEM+ZQeX4JSi8Aug44R7gD6c4nPp8Kzhu vBae43UNRtlxkn2nLn/RejBPB7KP0kLOQ6NqGv23O873NZY3zHYR+KTNCN2lZtIfPgw7bpRY7 Bk5HNGNV0sBlGirROfcWPOrIJl5T/bpg8xJku7zVKhsJAkR2fnwglBEKvHtrH7AnMLCDxPxOT CicGL82fJkY+t6xgNzbMKyYPU1vdT4UiMaKPpN6RjkkCG+VvLgfanw+Kh2eOiDzHIodGLnAIl mwwXLxcYGSkxSovSUOvQTDVx4WK6kbZL65eo+mS4UMljUGbPsdjD7yrmKluTNU+oz+BgPjDRA 4msGHioHS2FqglfnG6/J8zwO6AMUPLtMmy7Z6zw== Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > > How about leaving only cases like ARG -> '- undocumented? > > > > When called from Lisp, the mode command toggles the mode if the argu= ment > > is `toggle', disables the mode if the argument is a non-positive > > integer, and enables the mode if the argument is a positive integer = or > > omitted or nil. > > That's what we say now, and the reason I filed the bug. No, it's not, it doesn't contradict the implementation. Did you read carefully? > Consider a case where some command A invokes a minor-mode > command B, to turn B on or off for some purpose/extent. > Consider the case where A's prefix arg is passed to B, to > do that. > > The programmer writing the Lisp code to define A should > know that s?he can just pass the raw prefix arg. The > resulting code will be simpler, easier to read, etc. We don't know if the original author intended the semantics of the documentation or of the implementation. If we are sure the current implementation is what was intended I would be ok with documenting it, but it's really far from important IMHO. I leave it to Eli to decide. Michael. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 14:40:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.159171359910193 (code B ref 41727); Tue, 09 Jun 2020 14:40:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2020 14:39:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60552 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jifPz-0002eL-4l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 10:39:59 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50186) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jifPx-0002e4-Ep for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 10:39:57 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:42625) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jifPr-0003uB-TY; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 10:39:51 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1554 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jifPr-0008LY-93; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 10:39:51 -0400 Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 17:39:33 +0300 Message-Id: <835zc0717e.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <87h7vkbrh3.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Tue, 09 Jun 2020 09:58:32 +0200) References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org>> <87wo4jb33s.fsf@web.de>> <83y2oz6j6x.fsf@gnu.org>> <30c91bcf-044c-4d93-8ca8-bd407d7bd6b0@default> <87mu5dbhqv.fsf@web.de> <9a2f8463-42a6-4f0c-82d9-de15192fffe2@default> <87h7vkbrh3.fsf@web.de> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 41727@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 09:58:32 +0200 > > We don't know if the original author intended the semantics of the > documentation or of the implementation. If we are sure the current > implementation is what was intended I would be ok with documenting it, > but it's really far from important IMHO. > > I leave it to Eli to decide. I stated my opinion. Do we have other places where a function called from Lisp uses the prefix arg in any similar way? It seems bad practice to me: non-interactive calls shouldn't use interactive features. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 15:22:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.159171609214277 (code B ref 41727); Tue, 09 Jun 2020 15:22:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2020 15:21:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60605 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jig4C-0003iC-4W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 11:21:32 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:59419) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jig4A-0003hv-2k for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 11:21:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1591716076; bh=ElAQmGTfcvmHLwSDdw6Ju18nVqNZP+c9qiZVdOp0gEE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=m5J8DMm6N7URplcqbYXKnA5IqfqAbvjqmqpkelDlpiwylGZ87GqpWI4kapPlhOpiC 3p0SFNpCMzToO0EMDb+Sneam6IEJPpFAHaihI06hrF/P91i0g77MGwFCm12mEPbmQY xwQC4LqJTQF0OyAo9zsCitOD1cZMJIK8DOw/12FQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.217.119.187]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MJnvp-1jOfGn3GH3-00K4ra; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 17:21:16 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org>> <87wo4jb33s.fsf@web.de>> <83y2oz6j6x.fsf@gnu.org>> <30c91bcf-044c-4d93-8ca8-bd407d7bd6b0@default> <87mu5dbhqv.fsf@web.de> <9a2f8463-42a6-4f0c-82d9-de15192fffe2@default> <87h7vkbrh3.fsf@web.de> <835zc0717e.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 17:21:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: <835zc0717e.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 09 Jun 2020 17:39:33 +0300") Message-ID: <87d068b6z8.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:B4Rk97S2HX2AzohePxeeDrMnK0WOnAD0ajac5c1qZPbw4asFwn3 b/sj5kLQWMwgt0ZW1u5smIBC/XglZpdBaDTp3SQN9WSkqFL1mvwq0ZazAPWhBj2koV1dl9O uBwdggjHYlZa3aqt0YFVHpTSfcNI9voKViKSqj1fkZu3aJLfVcQ37Z+Q5WHRzdw3dbskr2z q/zZJleC3lz8GlflLSkxg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:WPV8jIS4LiI=:6Nlna8yaYcz5gyyy2qdcZh 1lKisaXISrmyMOSi0ix/hw9jt8DrHJq71Vh8R0wJhF5K04eo3ZKk0ny5ly7TOo7YdELennwFE xszuag4yR/o7eFcrfQ3HIA4HNhDH17rcOPhNmUClV8Kbrq2uCKlUscjujEZFqmhw3TM+FIJu8 DxS6flH+v2cKwvhEj04GqO3oWv/OBRdBEzLpPSwo/GjYgtsLLbuq6Hc7pVyXtDvLYsQQ+W5ot nbA+6JRfhouePhxi7HO5Uutg2plncEZ5iXMpa0jsb9vx7Cidavm9KEb3AUu4B+DY9Do3wptgm Wbwqz3/LoKZGK2emMn3A8NmsQIVkqii2gZMM098LeKyxLT3I5TEUslVAFNnHy6/6SZt4rLj2u Wjnpet6fCMGh3Z4RqWdRmxGVaQVfYDt5HUP03CZDYY99ZZYprW80jQfQjQ5vu1bkfi+WiukBK pshX7ZyEHXMySSEmvF+Aoj2QGTNNPYBHb2pRkmEi+tb5sco9ZmoN55H2/Xy2kJEAD6P4mDMvH yVbvxc51p2vTSZikyklY398lG948F0uU/WeXxfl556WWvY1rnHKtwNFi9RUn16u9mfjB7uxju T2gJanquKHkbRRCKIsHjfnM3oDrXqUBjHTev/N+7QDn6XHWO4qyvCQFfbE10zeZQklWKGalyD wDLF6xIlO/8SjeX7VvHkLoZvwjwXzB/YwXS7sIygePdJ7VyCNYu29BwCuEJY9hut8rRYjEwwi oMNlsGY7KE8dDkWLiRnbvVGESnCHuW7f0OADUFlrR4Eq+WkEzzCqk/C5ZKnliQww7zAXcEEZg qh4saKGM43L7b4LubExv+byWBLBnMjQbbOMWEWAUyd1MDaYWWoS3LReseQGaCJz0xAAOk8CKo bHwsbmxSZqWSuERK8LzKlF/yKc1br2WyjYqSIKZfIJ36ietmKBt70+d7I7xhdk3bQZ2g9AFBW zohLbwgg0kNUlveiUheFosDho7uZgZm26wUPkyzoug9njimWmPlZtSITsMumhUvZwjk+wUy7w NyO2fcsTl0l6VRHWC6j/zPbW0EB6zDsllRW2ZvvVpig/Y1Si5GVAqm+1hQnvZE279gm1wMmXd mwMPOeouCbJrt48RLA5ORy41drnnvOaeWLsmaIKqBuz2suKXizMBjeMJEbEyuqE5nFK9WmOYt uxYJ1ZCj0ASjNyVKMAAfLEt+1JlxBL+P+vrO1s1nrDZ5ugxVCVXOzd8VAJxt/ICReCVKXskK1 e+h4tbJ3woi4iUibb X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Do we have other places where a function called from Lisp uses the > prefix arg in any similar way? Seems so, e.g. allout-kill-line, allout-yank-pop, dired-do-kill-lines, doc-view-scroll-up-or-next-page, doc-view-scroll-down-or-previous-page, follow-scroll-up-arg, .... there are lots of more examples. The feature we are discussing in this report is also already used, see `toggle-menu-bar-mode-from-frame' for an example. > It seems bad practice to me: non-interactive calls shouldn't use > interactive features. Dunno. OTOH, most commands using the prefix arg don't distinguish between interactive and noninteractive calls. Why should `define-minor-mode' describe the two cases separately? Michael. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 15:41:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.159171722516021 (code B ref 41727); Tue, 09 Jun 2020 15:41:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2020 15:40:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60612 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jigMS-0004AL-RQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 11:40:25 -0400 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:45064) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jigMR-0004A6-W5 for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 11:40:24 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 059FcSIS064190; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 15:40:18 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=f1cmXUmxdrdeDl8V6uYGG162XG8t1rWorF3KST0SZDo=; b=XC/qNRF4Y6muH00ZQwbtL79F3KfJd1pHcKI+ot5gktYsa3deRXTMq7LW4gq9/eWfAcOJ Sw9sLynjhDbQlwN1ZBlPFxTNaNqWIIf6WPXNgO/DlRR1311hPy0iYfSPYjSlLF7pMwqk MwMMiI92hoY/+jZqkNp7Zc74+OomSOkARW3Nt7CDtQLFI3d1dA1JQ/z4pwDFhnKCD+6Y 7ewoYdzgqk7BGGIWpp+VtUc2eSu3qfT382AA2S+yTkpvRzfbSYSlGlhkrU2CTPZSGdL5 B4ulSt2n5vqVEJMC4/uYBgs+CM4wf8s2LPpyucbeHrBRxggh+0LGwOOj7rZmtQ74EaH4 7w== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31g2jr5j17-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 09 Jun 2020 15:40:18 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 059FcbKm030331; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 15:40:17 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31gn265f7n-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 09 Jun 2020 15:40:16 +0000 Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 059FeEE3016786; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 15:40:14 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4a54194b-effc-41a1-836f-2fb71ad11a5a@default> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 08:40:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org>> <87wo4jb33s.fsf@web.de>> <83y2oz6j6x.fsf@gnu.org>> <30c91bcf-044c-4d93-8ca8-bd407d7bd6b0@default> <87mu5dbhqv.fsf@web.de> <9a2f8463-42a6-4f0c-82d9-de15192fffe2@default> <87h7vkbrh3.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <87h7vkbrh3.fsf@web.de> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9647 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006090118 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9647 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 cotscore=-2147483648 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1015 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006090118 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > > How about leaving only cases like ARG -> '- undocumented? > > > > > > When called from Lisp, the mode command toggles the mode if the > > > argument is `toggle', disables the mode if the argument is a > > > non-positive integer, and enables the mode if the argument is a > > > positive integer or omitted or nil. > > > > That's what we say now, and the reason I filed the bug. >=20 > No, it's not, it doesn't contradict the implementation. Did you read > carefully? I think I did. We don't use exactly the same words, but I think we do say just that. When called from Lisp, the mode command toggles the mode if the argument is `toggle',=20 Verbatim the same. disables the mode if the argument is a non-positive integer, Verbatim the same. and enables the mode otherwise (including if the argument is omitted or nil or a positive integer). OK, your text doesn't say "otherwise". Your text is less exact, since the "otherwise" is correct - omitted/nil and positive integer constitute a subset of what's true. Is that really your suggestion, to not document that something other than omitted, nil and a positive integer enables the mode? To me, that would be a step backward, not forward. That doesn't correspond to what the code does. > > Consider a case where some command A invokes a minor-mode > > command B, to turn B on or off for some purpose/extent. > > Consider the case where A's prefix arg is passed to B, to > > do that. > > > > The programmer writing the Lisp code to define A should > > know that s?he can just pass the raw prefix arg. The > > resulting code will be simpler, easier to read, etc. >=20 > We don't know if the original author intended the semantics of the > documentation or of the implementation. If we are sure the current > implementation is what was intended I would be ok with documenting it, > but it's really far from important IMHO. Until the code is changed, e.g. because someone thinks the behavior is wrong, the doc should reflect it. I, for one, think the behavior is OK as is. The use case I just gave (cited above) is one argument for it. Many commands have the `interactive' form massage the prefix arg, to present something a bit different to the body. E.g., a change from raw to numeric prefix value is done in the `interactive' form, for whatever reason. This command doesn't work that way. Instead, what is passed to Lisp is the raw prefix arg, and it is the body (which also corresponds to a non-interactive call) that converts that to a numeric value. Someone (and `d-m-mode' has been worked over more than once wrt its interactive-vs-Lisp behavior, I believe) presumably deliberately decided that this command should act differently. Many commands (most, I think) make it so that the body gets just what it needs, and any compensation for interactivity is taken care of only in the `interactive' spec. Someone presumably thought this command should be an exception in that regard. Until someone decides otherwise, and changes the behavior (which I doubt will happen, in particular because of backward incompatibility), IMO it's the doc that needs to be changed to fit the behavior, not the other way around. I don't understand the hesitation to make the doc say just what the truth is. It doesn't take any more text. I already suggested wording, and I made clear that other wording that says the same thing (describes the behavior accurately) would be fine instead. What's the pushback, here? Why shouldn't we make the doc tell the real story wrt the ARG that Lisp expects? From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 15:52:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Michael Heerdegen Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.159171787917047 (code B ref 41727); Tue, 09 Jun 2020 15:52:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2020 15:51:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60621 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jigX1-0004Qt-7B for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 11:51:19 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:56082) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jigWy-0004Qg-V8 for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2020 11:51:18 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 059Fkmqp067979; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 15:51:11 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=F9dZpFJDVfka4ru84mBTPIRALtf7gV086W8Mz/2uwKg=; b=By15gFoUMOwrCMbzInLAEBuxjl7pBjkJqOG+g3doyP3yk8e1L/+HxneQ/HlIPn9ucjIf 6Q+XsmSo5I7l2olXu5m7aujT2DpEx9WrIeJPGrtGvTDl51+FczFr9Oko3Lv335kIKXu6 imvJSWoM0W/JaR2yHDBp0hmV2mpPA0nZIEEVvNwlgDcZJ9vMHHGzW1iNTFSBiUcLEaij WHbPMaEMQqgo7ldV1MRypT4mensgIgk8BD6U3BwkdFck9SacA/WmoRzuBOzdTy9w3eW8 v6mdWKhoJh5BVe7zl5X/lYzFkYTnDlqaxBLmCGzGjRGFpcflCp9DjKzTmwna9ReudnkH JQ== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31g33m5kf1-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 09 Jun 2020 15:51:10 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 059FlpYP165011; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 15:51:10 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31gmqnssf1-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 09 Jun 2020 15:51:10 +0000 Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 059Fp9vp016727; Tue, 9 Jun 2020 15:51:09 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7f22a5d6-52a9-45dd-b2b9-e350f8957b1e@default> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 08:51:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams References: <<963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org>>> <<87wo4jb33s.fsf@web.de>> <83y2oz6j6x.fsf@gnu.org>> <30c91bcf-044c-4d93-8ca8-bd407d7bd6b0@default>> <<87mu5dbhqv.fsf@web.de> <9a2f8463-42a6-4f0c-82d9-de15192fffe2@default>> <<87h7vkbrh3.fsf@web.de>> <<835zc0717e.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<835zc0717e.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9647 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006090119 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9647 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 cotscore=-2147483648 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006090119 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Do we have other places where a function called from Lisp uses the > prefix arg in any similar way? It seems bad practice to me: > non-interactive calls shouldn't use interactive features. I actually agree with what you say there. I don't know why this was designed as an exception. But I think it was. There has been discussion over the years about the interactive vs Lisp behavior of `d-m-mode' and the confusion of users, and I think the behavior may even have changed over time. I think Stefan might know why this does what it does. I don't know why it does - but it does. Do you see the behavior changing to fit the more common model, as you suggest? If so, OK (but that will break some existing code out there). If you don't expect to fix the behavior, to no longer have the "bad practice" you cite, then, until we do fix it, (IMO) we should fix the doc to fit the behavior. From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505) X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Drew Adams Subject: bug#41727: closed (Re: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands) Message-ID: References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> X-Gnu-PR-Message: they-closed 41727 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 15:42:03 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1632584523-24283-1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1632584523-24283-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Your bug report #41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands which was filed against the emacs package, has been closed. The explanation is attached below, along with your original report. If you require more details, please reply to 41727@debbugs.gnu.org. --=20 41727: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D41727 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1632584523-24283-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 41727-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Sep 2021 15:41:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34400 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mU9nh-0006Ho-9b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 11:41:17 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:45729) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mU9ne-0006HK-EO for 41727-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 11:41:14 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f41.google.com with SMTP id mv7-20020a17090b198700b0019c843e7233so9774689pjb.4 for <41727-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:41:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=69FmD7RxxmWVhko6tQJCgb/D2FXvcrWOlkWlppI2RtM=; b=3/v0wZyqXfqp8UnQN5Ft8oauNPe8y7OmP0SvQWkx6OkbhgPqtfXJJqbnyAelPXmxMj lbes8hugbs82nS6IiwR3cVDHBxh6jCO188oR/2Hm0AY0oYiRGfB0RTm9Laey7JBGp6EX hU74PSjRuPFIJgYyEPBnmsxY4QX4f1ICyAiT2mwAp0RiPwmFOnVvpMxEinXCyGXGcjeB yv/UKCLLgDnVgQjuTiGQVqZT9/DY4ExHwf2i+WO20NCdd+QlypVk98l/0kD794BP2Cem qIQI1xsaeCh00UvU/s0ABvoO6UXxdFG/KjJuswK68XxayVNaz+plAiA9pXmCO2Y9KiVM 50MA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532EtpObvMlNcdNxS/P9vKJrabWS+md/ASsolc6iFUQ8gHHSoPPs e9W1+v88UeyBui6tqM/ZL1zgmkBHsu6TVk7DrPDMdYuA X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwxr516lKpki9T/0SwGCTj6KY6CYSnfDwbc2kc6VnSbYJJWvErztLgqjRZQih9BWyjusCvxgN3x+ZC3QagR+Q8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:460a:: with SMTP id w10mr8859291pjg.132.1632584468897; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:41:08 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 06 Jun 2020 21:56:30 +0300") References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:41:08 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41727-done Cc: 41727-done@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 09:45:46 -0700 (PDT) >> From: Drew Adams >> Cc: 41727@debbugs.gnu.org >> >> > > The doc needs improvement when describing calling the mode from Lisp. >> > > >> > > 1. The doc string of `define-minor-mode' says this: >> > > >> > > When called from Lisp, the mode command toggles the mode if the >> > > argument is `toggle', disables the mode if the argument is a >> > > non-positive integer, and enables the mode otherwise (including if >> > > the argument is omitted or nil or a positive integer). >> > >> > It actually says this: >> > Interactively with no prefix argument, it toggles the mode. >> > A prefix argument enables the mode if the argument is positive, >> > and disables it otherwise. >> > >> > >> >> Yes, and? The point was about what the doc says about >> a call from Lisp. > > My point was that you take the text out of its context, and that > context spells out what you say is missing. > > This is not the first time you raise this issue, and the argument > always goes the same way. I wish you'd stopped these repeated > complaints about the same thing. > >> > Are you reading obsolete docs? >> >> I'm reading the 26.3 docs, as suggested by the report: > > The latest sources seem to be different. This bug report is sprawling, and it is very hard to make heads or tails of what is being discussed. One initial issue is that the bug report was made against the text in 26.3, which has changed significantly on current master. In any case, Eli seems to be of the opinion that no further change is needed here. I tend to agree, and I'm therefore closing this bug report. If there are still any outstanding issues, please carefully review the text that we currently have on master and report any issues separately based on that. Otherwise, it will be very hard to make any progress. Thanks in advance. ------------=_1632584523-24283-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jun 2020 20:39:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50027 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhJ7p-00040j-Kc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 16:39:37 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:37542) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jhJ7m-00040a-Va for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 16:39:35 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40654) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jhJ7m-0008BQ-Ns for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 16:39:34 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:52430) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jhJ7l-00033L-IR for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 16:39:34 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 055KahxW015015 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 20:39:31 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=66pxRLVmd+1woi3nAPNl+K5ahiReKAmoLpNzfdSQdXo=; b=Bqm5LZQ1af0KkS880S/byWAw5T/1JrVe5Xiy2QtHYHir6hjfEcDSmzc78rf7/9sIyd+U UMNunlGZ+31JYModctUalmhEJBTsipgHGpCUAbQ22Zh8QDUQuayNbc3Z45ntWGkPcRQ5 NQR25q9tRz3r9LfamZo2oKpo38AJ6wTq+XcfKTqB1oh9nMGi5cV+bJxYqTGNLh8GzBEN gTzImy3m7yErd6kFnba3r6eOkwzbhqoyxYullNf2FqeOQ67SY80VtSN1/QkQbmM9afP9 1CaPYVVSxODq78ZPPHuAhkK4FITiPLwvx5ZvL+Dh8sZqgNwzw6QhunfPD9+x6G6XS0MZ dw== Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31f91dvnt0-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 20:39:31 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 055KcAWL163878 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 20:39:30 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 31f927prv4-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2020 20:39:30 +0000 Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 055KdTnW031525 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 20:39:30 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 13:39:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9643 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=1 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006050153 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9643 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1015 cotscore=-2147483648 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2006050153 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=141.146.126.78; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2120.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/06/05 16:39:32 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) The doc needs improvement when describing calling the mode from Lisp. 1. The doc string of `define-minor-mode' says this: When called from Lisp, the mode command toggles the mode if the argument is `toggle', disables the mode if the argument is a non-positive integer, and enables the mode otherwise (including if the argument is omitted or nil or a positive integer). This is wrong (incomplete). It disables the mode if the `prefix-numeric-value' of ARG <=3D 0, not if ARG is a non-positive integer. The code does this: (prefix-numeric-value arg). So if you pass the symbol `-' as ARG then the mode is disabled. 1. The (default) doc string produced by `define-minor-mode' says this: If called from Lisp, enable the mode if ARG is omitted or nil, and toggle it if ARG is `toggle'. Again, this is wrong (incomplete). It doesn't say that if ARG is non-nil other than `toggle' then disable the mode if the `prefix-numeric-value' of ARG <=3D 0, and enable it if the `prefix-numeric-value' of ARG > 0. 3. The Elisp manual doc says this (node `Defining Minor Modes'): From Lisp, an argument of 'toggle' toggles the mode, whereas an omitted or 'nil' argument enables the mode. Again, this is wrong (incomplete). * It says nothing about how the mode is disabled when called from Lisp. It should say that an ARG whose `prefix-numeric-value' is non-positive disables the mode. * It should say that an ARG whose `prefix-numeric-value' is non-positive enables the mode. In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2019-08-29 Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.18362 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' ------------=_1632584523-24283-1-- From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: [External] : Re: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 16:59:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Stefan Kangas , Eli Zaretskii Cc: "41727-done@debbugs.gnu.org" <41727-done@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 41727-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D41727.163258912116301 (code D ref 41727); Sat, 25 Sep 2021 16:59:01 +0000 Received: (at 41727-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7063492e-fa6e-484e-4f6d-08d98045b57b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Sep 2021 16:58:33.4575 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: wRLJtWSyLIAEsMbKoFCA/S2Qg4JZ/SdHtOji5pCZxL17U3aTiDQZW31wX3p4jrMGrlbu/TgHrZEgtW1/fcRzuA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SJ0PR10MB5454 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6300 definitions=10118 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=989 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2109250127 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: WcgC425d1p4UW74daM6unIKcZRPdmBHL X-Proofpoint-GUID: WcgC425d1p4UW74daM6unIKcZRPdmBHL X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) PiBUaGlzIGJ1ZyByZXBvcnQgaXMgc3ByYXdsaW5nLCBhbmQgaXQgaXMgdmVyeSBoYXJkIHRvIG1h a2UgaGVhZHMgb3INCj4gdGFpbHMgb2Ygd2hhdCBpcyBiZWluZyBkaXNjdXNzZWQuDQoNCkkgZG9u J3QgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCdzIHRoZSBjYXNlLiAgT2YgY291cnNlIGl0IHRha2VzDQp0aW1lIHRvIHJl YWQgYW5kIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgYSBidWcgdGhyZWFkLg0KDQo+IEluIGFueSBjYXNlLCBFbGkgc2Vl bXMgdG8gYmUgb2YgdGhlIG9waW5pb24gdGhhdA0KPiBubyBmdXJ0aGVyIGNoYW5nZSBpcyBuZWVk ZWQgaGVyZS4NCg0KRWxpIHdhcyB0aGUgb25lIHdobyBzYWlkIChhbmQgSSBhZ3JlZWQpOg0KDQog IERvIHdlIGhhdmUgb3RoZXIgcGxhY2VzIHdoZXJlIGEgZnVuY3Rpb24gY2FsbGVkDQogIGZyb20g TGlzcCB1c2VzIHRoZSBwcmVmaXggYXJnIGluIGFueSBzaW1pbGFyIHdheT8NCg0KICBJdCBzZWVt cyBiYWQgcHJhY3RpY2UgdG8gbWU6IG5vbi1pbnRlcmFjdGl2ZSBjYWxscw0KICBzaG91bGRuJ3Qg dXNlIGludGVyYWN0aXZlIGZlYXR1cmVzLg0KDQpUaGF0J3MgYWJvdXQgdGhlIGNvZGUgYmVoYXZp b3IsIG5vdCBhYm91dCB0aGUgZG9jDQpzdHJpbmcuICBCdXQgZXNwZWNpYWxseSBnaXZlbiB0aGF0 IHVudXN1YWwgKHBlciBFbGkpDQpiZWhhdmlvciwgSSB0aGluayB0aGUgZG9jIHN0cmluZyBzaG91 bGQgbWFrZSBjbGVhcg0Kd2hhdCB0aGUgYmVoYXZpb3IgaXMgKGZvciBMaXNwIHVzZSkuICBJdCdz IG5vdCB0aGUNCnVzdWFsIGJlaGF2aW9yIGZvciBMaXNwIHVzZS4NCg== From unknown Tue Jun 17 01:46:41 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#41727: [External] : Re: bug#41727: 26.3; Doc of `define-minor-mode' and minor-mode commands Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 17:19:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 41727 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: stefan@marxist.se, 41727@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 41727-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B41727.163259030118309 (code B ref 41727); Sat, 25 Sep 2021 17:19:02 +0000 Received: (at 41727) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Sep 2021 17:18:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34578 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mUBJd-0004lF-3L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 13:18:21 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:57170) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mUBJb-0004l2-E2 for 41727@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 13:18:19 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49028) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mUBJV-0002KD-OB; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 13:18:13 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4300 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mUBJV-0007bI-Am; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 13:18:13 -0400 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 20:18:10 +0300 Message-Id: <83tui8poa5.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Sat, 25 Sep 2021 16:58:33 +0000) References: <963d4189-17dc-4f4e-9993-0335fa271e50@default> <83k10kafha.fsf@gnu.org> <9d7f8447-1c0b-46db-a40c-c1ed2a398c46@default> <838sh081lt.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Drew Adams > CC: "41727-done@debbugs.gnu.org" <41727-done@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 16:58:33 +0000 > Accept-Language: en-US > > > This bug report is sprawling, and it is very hard to make heads or > > tails of what is being discussed. > > I don't think that's the case. Of course it takes > time to read and understand a bug thread. > > > In any case, Eli seems to be of the opinion that > > no further change is needed here. > > Eli was the one who said (and I agreed): > > Do we have other places where a function called > from Lisp uses the prefix arg in any similar way? > > It seems bad practice to me: non-interactive calls > shouldn't use interactive features. > > That's about the code behavior, not about the doc > string. Exactly. > But especially given that unusual (per Eli) > behavior, I think the doc string should make clear > what the behavior is (for Lisp use). No, that doesn't follow. Stefan is right: this bug should be closed.