From unknown Thu Aug 14 20:53:37 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#41532 <41532@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#41532 <41532@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Why use the mouse in Emacs? Reply-To: bug#41532 <41532@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 03:53:37 +0000 retitle 41532 Why use the mouse in Emacs? reassign 41532 emacs submitter 41532 Kevin Vigouroux severity 41532 wishlist tag 41532 moreinfo thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 25 13:38:18 2020 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 May 2020 17:38:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42421 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdH3K-0004Nf-9L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 May 2020 13:38:18 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:51056) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdH3I-0004NY-5a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 May 2020 13:38:16 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41266) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jdH3H-0005Qf-Ot for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 25 May 2020 13:38:15 -0400 Received: from smtpoutz23.laposte.net ([194.117.213.98]:48782 helo=smtp.laposte.net) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jdH3E-0002N1-7l for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 25 May 2020 13:38:14 -0400 Received: from smtp.laposte.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lpn-prd-vrout011 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 529EA52E941 for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 19:38:01 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=laposte.net; s=mail0; t=1590428281; bh=mu9VbN8KBmoYkRME28Pz3geRtW54Ns+JhNg7rfB4j9I=; h=From:To:Subject:Date; b=EsT99tRXy0cNPsIZ4aubr9QQR5080YEre7Oh0iV4bxUsOLtZjKD98pw+hubfYButy avsppIeZOsTK/80izymMmsMjVDwK1I47ueULDJBQ+ErMU2wxuDxnfb6OElw6Gth3nd HNo77iVOaCdSCkqkbFZ/Cyod+nD1dQJHsyICH7ZP/cJoHYwOzpAurgi5ZoNnPbJC+T qYIEqCPqeLTrvLUFiqW2XL0RSN6ouJrAn8h5HTcd1Czqj75fjCywCuZoZOARx9oI1R UKy5ZkDukmXXTDYEuhkeZfTXscOL4T/n+jsVciKRTrcOx4kKQUtMhRuas2O9GbfXtm WCKWOyy6bla+A== Received: from mlpnf0120.laposte.net (unknown [10.94.128.99]) by lpn-prd-vrout011 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ABEB52E940 for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 19:38:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from outgoing-mail.laposte.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpnf0103.laposte.net (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 49W4786JvRz10MQT for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 19:37:56 +0200 (CEST) X-mail-filterd: 0.4.0.2 X-mail-filterd: 0.4.0.2 X-lpn-spamrating: 40 X-lpn-spamlevel: not-spam X-lpn-spamcause: OK, (0)(0000)gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedruddvtddgudduvdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfntefrqffuvffgpdfqfgfvpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhephffvufffkfgfgggtsehttdertddtredtnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghvihhnucggihhgohhurhhouhiguceokhgvrdhvihhgohhurhhouhigsehlrghpohhsthgvrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedtffetueekkeettdeutdfgteejudfhkeffvdegheejhedviefhudeugfetiedtudenucfkphepvddrudefrddukeegrdejkeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhephhgvlhhopegslhhuvghmrghnpdhinhgvthepvddrudefrddukeegrdejkedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehkvgdrvhhighhouhhrohhugieslhgrphhoshhtvgdrnhgvthdprhgtphhtthhopegsuhhgqdhgnhhuqdgvmhgrtghssehgnhhurdhorhhg X-lpn-mailing: LEGIT Received: from blueman (arennes-257-1-177-78.w2-13.abo.wanadoo.fr [2.13.184.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mlpnf0103.laposte.net (SMTP Server) with ESMTPSA id 49W4784kLFz10MQS for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 19:37:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Kevin Vigouroux To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: Why use the mouse in Emacs? Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 19:37:55 +0200 Message-ID: <87zh9vgbkc.fsf@laposte.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=194.117.213.98; envelope-from=ke.vigouroux@laposte.net; helo=smtp.laposte.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/25 13:38:01 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) I briefly followed the discussions about the graphical interface on the developer mailing list. One issue that comes to mind is the role of the graphical user interface. Comparing Emacs with other GUIs, one perceives that the Emacs graphical interface is half broken. This would explain why many users would prefer using the keyboard or why some users would perceive Emacs as an outdated text editor. You can use the mouse to click on certain elements but it is difficult to navigate with the mouse or to organize its work because the interface is not designed this way. The menu, for example, does not open graphical windows but usual Emacs windows (minibuffer, echo area, Customize...). Finally, I think it is necessary to clarify that we use Emacs mainly with the keyboard because the interface is designed that way otherwise the user will have false expectations. Best regards, Kevin Vigouroux From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 25 14:22:26 2020 Received: (at 41532) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 May 2020 18:22:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42521 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdHk2-0005TB-I2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 May 2020 14:22:26 -0400 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:56860) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdHk0-0005Sy-Oq for 41532@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 May 2020 14:22:25 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 04PILWoL044148; Mon, 25 May 2020 18:22:18 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=Ob8u+954GkvohWFrtVW2zNumSbCcB79Dyb59qwxFUZ0=; b=ZvRiHcojKGMR1Vr4LmVihrrJNyb8t2ytu/2IYuq9dzq1kWP2ivMToTDTksPoxQbquAFM AJxu+NAuXcW4RuCcC0mxotxJU2qaaXZz6UEu9zDTENx6/6+3BFAGsMvO+Wtpte+CVTAk 3HToncv+9PHxidJf1+gbJTg16InSTzC90I/uAfZESGBbMUd5OZxzVJJrD3fbA+4fOpeI N1P4Tvo7Yi+cZXXv9qLvPUdzGMifAFUdwLlDVMj03zeYmLHl/7UqfYRGSqs0aCP+A7Fq txtTNhZ4FSJjr7zB+j5AlQKOkf390MPYO7mYrNaw7hN+W4bMKpRHNq7GQAiT9Rceu0xk aQ== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 316u8qpebw-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 25 May 2020 18:22:18 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 04PIDSMc113536; Mon, 25 May 2020 18:22:17 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 317j5jv8ke-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 25 May 2020 18:22:17 +0000 Received: from abhmp0001.oracle.com (abhmp0001.oracle.com [141.146.116.7]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 04PIMAPe021513; Mon, 25 May 2020 18:22:11 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <304f1cd0-045c-4f34-924c-2ae2ca072cc0@default> Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 11:22:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Kevin Vigouroux , 41532@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#41532: Why use the mouse in Emacs? References: <87zh9vgbkc.fsf@laposte.net> In-Reply-To: <87zh9vgbkc.fsf@laposte.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9632 signatures=668686 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2005250146 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9632 signatures=668686 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 cotscore=-2147483648 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2005250147 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41532 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Lots of us use both keyboard and mouse. The difference from some other applications, I think, is that some applications pretty much _require_ you to use a mouse. There's often no keyboard shortcut for this or that operation, and no way to create your own shortcut in the application. This seems to be the problem you're reporting: > the Emacs graphical interface is half broken. > ... it is difficult to navigate with the mouse > or to organize its work because the interface > is not designed this way. How so? Specifically, what's the problem? In what way can you not navigate with the mouse? > The menu, for example, does not open graphical > windows but usual Emacs windows (minibuffer, > echo area, Customize...). OK, good; something concrete. Except ... what do you mean by "graphical windows"? The examples you mention are graphical windows, AFAICT. Do you perhaps mean window-manager windows, i.e., what Emacs calls "frames"? If so, customize `pop-up-frames' to `t', and see if Emacs then does what you want. > Finally, I think it is necessary to clarify > that we use Emacs mainly with the keyboard > because the interface is designed that way > otherwise the user will have false expectations. Is not designed what way? False expectations of what? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 26 10:58:29 2020 Received: (at 41532) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2020 14:58:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46077 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdb2D-0002a4-NR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 10:58:29 -0400 Received: from smtp-outgoing.laposte.net ([160.92.124.100]:52160) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdb2B-0002Zr-Q7 for 41532@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 10:58:28 -0400 Received: from outgoing-mail.laposte.net (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpnf0102.laposte.net (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 49WcXX59yWz7t7j; Tue, 26 May 2020 16:58:20 +0200 (CEST) X-mail-filterd: 0.4.0.2 X-mail-filterd: 0.4.0.2 X-lpn-spamrating: 36 X-lpn-spamlevel: not-spam X-lpn-spamcause: OK, (-100)(0000)gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedruddvvddgkedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecunfetrffquffvgfdpqfgfvfdpggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephffvufhfffgjkfgfgggtsehttdertddtredtnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghvihhnucggihhgohhurhhouhiguceokhgvrdhvihhgohhurhhouhigsehlrghpohhsthgvrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefgueelheevuefgieduueehvdeifeffjeefueekffdtfeetvedugeetlefgffetjeenucfkphepuddtledrvddukedruddvkedrvdefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehhvghlohepsghluhgvmhgrnhdpihhnvghtpedutdelrddvudekrdduvdekrddvfedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehkvgdrvhhighhouhhrohhugieslhgrphhoshhtvgdrnhgvthdprhgtphhtthhopeegudehfedvseguvggssghughhsrdhgnhhurdhorhhgpdhrtghpthhtohepughrvgifrdgruggrmhhssehorhgrtghlvgdrtghomh X-lpn-mailing: LEGIT Received: from blueman (arennes-653-1-289-23.w109-218.abo.wanadoo.fr [109.218.128.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mlpnf0102.laposte.net (SMTP Server) with ESMTPSA id 49WcXX3D8fz7t7n; Tue, 26 May 2020 16:58:20 +0200 (CEST) From: Kevin Vigouroux To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#41532: Why use the mouse in Emacs? References: <87zh9vgbkc.fsf@laposte.net> <304f1cd0-045c-4f34-924c-2ae2ca072cc0@default> Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:58:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: <304f1cd0-045c-4f34-924c-2ae2ca072cc0@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 25 May 2020 11:22:10 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87sgfmoi9g.fsf@laposte.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=laposte.net; s=lpn-wlmd; t=1590505101; bh=3/Vxi6Gtv64QHexYJfus3pd9QkkObaF2KDyFJefNzH4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=R+uQ91mUCXeRit2A0uaQQitwFepIJeMtLHkECTaTpBKqZJP2PP3C5H4Pbwaww5ZQUh8z61iIs0w9lao1MmYS7TPaRfMP30VPWLq2QA2vajQmKfe789nQOaPDc6HVvDPST97d8b5+UlgWT+8+cOe9QDVAtBArD4/osykoKE99DPSBGfPRcKEMcuIVJfuHlhjl4V3c50aRa9WZ0YR/JVLHIZHPC8VoBG0G+dx4j2aS1M7v2cYOUsTu5LE82cWTGTX+mEII5EgLShTyc0k540VGascNd8e+FUqtw8dCl0eO91VxX41aq2F6eNCa/xQjdUF2pxsCtt+t5L2xLSw00gP1Hg==; X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41532 Cc: 41532@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) The user experience is quite different when browsing the Emacs and LibreOffice menus although they seem similar. The Emacs interface is mainly text-based partly because there are few graphical widgets. Nonetheless, this difference is not always clearly perceived. It can be seen in the following two cases: 1. Menu bar> Tools, Merge, Files... opens a window manager window. 2. Menu bar> Tools, Search Files(Grep)... opens the minibuffer. Moreover, I think people may also confuse a text-based interface having a good appearance with a graphical user interface. The issue may be: - Better describe or explain how to use the mouse in the interface, - Fix the menu so as not to mislead the user, - Rebuild at least partially the Emacs graphical user interface. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 26 11:29:02 2020 Received: (at 41532) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2020 15:29:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46188 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdbVm-0003N2-BS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 11:29:02 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:51106) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdbVk-0003Md-Qg for 41532@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 11:29:01 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 04QFI5gQ079592; Tue, 26 May 2020 15:28:53 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=vn1qjPu3R8rbAC/XHzD7ChESCgwfElmNQkFWpUZUa/c=; b=THkm+BfhQJSwrA7xXRDP4q2lz6NZVnHmjTVZ/5FCHiU10YVUyZQfPLov2lZmI0Aauh+C oZIyigcoN4w4nlv1EuCbq9FGwHD0kkk4Xb1kPQo5M2s0YwnhldlDi02tNJLsXhTUcXQ5 iyQ1EQxJk9weNZ/HBAjqnekdAz2kZ1dvSH3Htp2e1DuDluN8UBFwTF1Je+ofjO71cxZX KgD7LxFyoYOUPDrHYInvv0kwAjloelL5Qghv+AQALxuoCFZjOqNOvgmZBvu3QP0s/4q8 QUk/4W0nfwBc0mQ9kdYHVM52yx9umqxePDUB4OfRiNBL2aPx7XHqPCerqdd5V9jaMjrC Zw== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 318xe1ajdj-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 26 May 2020 15:28:53 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 04QFJ0nR097794; Tue, 26 May 2020 15:28:53 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 317ddp26bt-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 26 May 2020 15:28:53 +0000 Received: from abhmp0006.oracle.com (abhmp0006.oracle.com [141.146.116.12]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 04QFSpn9027575; Tue, 26 May 2020 15:28:52 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <211517b0-711b-4fb5-ba90-dfcf19d4a32c@default> Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 08:30:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Kevin Vigouroux Subject: RE: bug#41532: Why use the mouse in Emacs? References: <87zh9vgbkc.fsf@laposte.net> <304f1cd0-045c-4f34-924c-2ae2ca072cc0@default> <87sgfmoi9g.fsf@laposte.net> In-Reply-To: <87sgfmoi9g.fsf@laposte.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9632 signatures=668686 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2005260119 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9632 signatures=668686 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 cotscore=-2147483648 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 clxscore=1015 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2005260119 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41532 Cc: 41532@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > The user experience is quite different when browsing the Emacs and > LibreOffice menus although they seem similar. The Emacs interface is > mainly text-based partly because there are few graphical widgets. >=20 > Nonetheless, this difference is not always clearly perceived. It can be > seen in the following two cases: >=20 > 1. Menu bar> Tools, Merge, Files... opens a window manager window. > 2. Menu bar> Tools, Search Files(Grep)... opens the minibuffer. #1 invites you to submit a `grep' command. #2 invites you to choose files. `C-h v use-dialog-box' `C-h v use-file-dialog' (Emacs users have a choice, for #2.) `...' at the end of a menu item means that _some_ further user interaction will entail - for example, you might be prompted for some input (minibuffer), or to hit a key (`read-char'), or you may be invited to do any number of other things. I'm not sure what you're saying - what the problem is. But it seems that you're sure. Examples (like the one you showed here) can likely help get your point across. But maybe it's clear to others, even if not to me. You speak in generalities, which doesn't help (me): "the Emacs graphical interface is half broken." "it is difficult to navigate with the mouse or to organize its work". HTH. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 26 11:52:38 2020 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2020 15:52:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46219 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdbsb-00063m-QS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 11:52:38 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:48180) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdbsV-00063S-1r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 11:52:35 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50798) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jdbsU-0003Dq-QB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 11:52:30 -0400 Received: from forward105p.mail.yandex.net ([2a02:6b8:0:1472:2741:0:8b7:108]:54099) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jdbsS-0002Rb-Og for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 11:52:30 -0400 Received: from mxback12j.mail.yandex.net (mxback12j.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1619::87]) by forward105p.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id AA4334D4001A; Tue, 26 May 2020 18:52:22 +0300 (MSK) Received: from sas1-e20a8b944cac.qloud-c.yandex.net (sas1-e20a8b944cac.qloud-c.yandex.net [2a02:6b8:c14:6696:0:640:e20a:8b94]) by mxback12j.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id 87h6n7lILF-qMQ8rGFR; Tue, 26 May 2020 18:52:22 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.com; s=mail; t=1590508342; bh=VV7BugoSPp5gdy5V1Q9FycXEe42+pnNkhM+LI/UTBlQ=; h=In-Reply-To:Subject:To:From:Cc:Cc:Date:References:Message-ID; b=Pvfj0xZ8/oyJ/rOPUjgt2h0djKYexJ0AyVpC13u7yDRq3VilyzMPdsrpasVhIq/8v InHslWClIzg7I1X81BB3iK1EC2SXWlXudcWJ//qCXepS2dDrgT1i6swiYXCyoqZaiH hg2qlRvPxnJrF0Looru6R/cF5GgIw93x7DOw1nxw= Authentication-Results: mxback12j.mail.yandex.net; dkim=pass header.i=@yandex.com Received: by sas1-e20a8b944cac.qloud-c.yandex.net (smtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id Km9q6eSzFl-qLkGB04J; Tue, 26 May 2020 18:52:21 +0300 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client certificate not present) From: Colin Baxter To: Kevin Vigouroux via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs\, the Swiss army knife of text editors" Subject: Re: bug#41532: Why use the mouse in Emacs? References: <87zh9vgbkc.fsf@laposte.net> X-Face: -P+89ASh_wrs;AUGm`!l[}/o-lyK}5W.gq\fkJ{#d6Gu,hWrZNz::iMm5PJb} __A96]-LUrl)X=uF=V|\3-\9/sXvBs/H Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:52:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87zh9vgbkc.fsf@laposte.net> (Kevin Vigouroux via's message of "Mon, 25 May 2020 19:37:55 +0200") Message-ID: <87d06qu217.fsf@yandex.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAA8AAAAPCAIAAAC0tAIdAAAABmJLR0QA/wD/AP+gvaeTAAAA tUlEQVQokYXSMQ6EIBRF0WflIgQLYRu6HuOCJnFfdFBB7O1erP4UZgwqjuRXcG4DVOu61nWNfC0L pgmfD5om3962DSQlXyGI1gJI20oI+QnJsz7oPlrnwVlf6C3ItPcFeg5+2ntRqkyPwHuSoHMvdB+l 6BzY9+8UEIDDAIYg1r5raxkCSEpKYsx/KilldxLjY2CMpHS772JgjMT48JaXIKMlvQddd6e7rgp/ MCWMI+YZSl3+4BfHInv1mo789QAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a02:6b8:0:1472:2741:0:8b7:108; envelope-from=m43cap@yandex.com; helo=forward105p.mail.yandex.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/26 11:52:23 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: , Kevin Vigouroux , 41532@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) >>>>> Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors writes: > You can use the mouse to click on certain elements but it is > difficult to navigate with the mouse or to organize its work > because the interface is not designed this way. The menu, for > example, does not open graphical windows but usual Emacs windows > (minibuffer, echo area, Customize...). > Finally, I think it is necessary to clarify that we use Emacs > mainly with the keyboard because the interface is designed that > way otherwise the user will have false expectations. Well you may do that. I use mainly the keyboard to avoid repetitive stress injuries to my wrist. And after 40-odd years, I think it's been successful. Best wishes, Colin. -- Colin Baxter URL: http://www.Colin-Baxter.com From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 27 00:16:11 2020 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2020 04:16:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47937 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdnU8-0007R1-HM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 May 2020 00:16:11 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:56324) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdmpW-0006Pw-VZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 23:34:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51262) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jdmpW-0003d1-Pe for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 23:34:10 -0400 Received: from relay-2.mailobj.net ([213.182.54.5]:55146) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jdmpV-0006pR-JN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 23:34:10 -0400 Received: from v-1c.localdomain (unknown [192.168.90.161]) by relay-2.mailobj.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 9ADDD1329; Wed, 27 May 2020 05:34:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-1.net-c.com [213.182.54.15] with ESMTP Wed, 27 May 2020 05:34:06 +0200 (CEST) X-EA-Auth: otHS/rnau4b9Lg7l47VwKYj6MAaigLf/nxlJD9PsgUJ208iHyLNqioqp4pszWReoGQaxZuUQB/cUssnJVGOim3RKS5958Of5 From: Dmitry Alexandrov To: Kevin Vigouroux Subject: Re: bug#41532: Why use the mouse in Emacs? In-Reply-To: <87zh9vgbkc.fsf@laposte.net> (Kevin Vigouroux via's message of "Mon, 25 May 2020 19:37:55 +0200") References: <87zh9vgbkc.fsf@laposte.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 06:33:51 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=213.182.54.5; envelope-from=dag@gnui.org; helo=relay-2.mailobj.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/26 23:34:06 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 27 May 2020 00:16:06 -0400 Cc: 41532@debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevin Vigouroux wrote: > I think it is necessary to clarify that we use Emacs mainly with the keyb= oard because =E2=80=A6 otherwise the user will have false expectations. I there really anyone who expects that he can use a _text editor_ without k= eyboard? (Voice recognition aside.) In any case, +1 =E2=80=94 novice users better be not exposed to barely used= and therefore neglected features, such as toolkit dialogs. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iIMEARYIACsWIQRSX35grYEsI2F1K7TIsPhUjufz5wUCXs3fnw0cZGFnQGdudWku b3JnAAoJEMiw+FSO5/PnOokA/1rSBW1p9IM12eARxfny4kem2TpFtxv0/H6nJdlf BgDIAP90ovmhgnK3A6U17oqvars+OYLmTkGhfa8w/5Xi+O72Bw== =Adbb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 27 00:16:16 2020 Received: (at 41532) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2020 04:16:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47941 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdnUC-0007RF-FV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 May 2020 00:16:16 -0400 Received: from relay-1.mailobj.net ([213.182.54.6]:42700) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdnBx-0006xw-Ib for 41532@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 May 2020 23:57:22 -0400 Received: from v-1c.localdomain (unknown [192.168.90.161]) by relay-1.mailobj.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 5654C12F2; Wed, 27 May 2020 05:57:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-1.net-c.com [213.182.54.15] with ESMTP Wed, 27 May 2020 05:57:15 +0200 (CEST) X-EA-Auth: c4KI1f6vATv2ZIbABfmKj5C+A+aaVTY83yY4t3roiHjHr3MhlD/KO2LSZaDU40kvDpDIrqC62PK0tToxfStru9VvliUp97Ah From: Dmitry Alexandrov To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#41532: Why use the mouse in Emacs? In-Reply-To: <304f1cd0-045c-4f34-924c-2ae2ca072cc0@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 25 May 2020 11:22:10 -0700 (PDT)") References: <87zh9vgbkc.fsf@laposte.net> <304f1cd0-045c-4f34-924c-2ae2ca072cc0@default> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 06:57:10 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41532 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 27 May 2020 00:16:06 -0400 Cc: Kevin Vigouroux , 41532@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Drew Adams wrote: > The difference from some other applications, I think, is that some applic= ations pretty much _require_ you to use a mouse. Yep, and that=CA=BCs partly true even for Emacs. Especially, when it=CA=BC= s built with no GTK. IIRC, Lucid popup menus once were usable without mous= e, but they are not anymore for some reason, while --with-x-toolkit=3Dno me= nus have never been. There is M-x tmm-menubar, of course, but besides main menu there are also c= ontext menus. I have not done a good research, but at first sight I=CA=BCv= e failed to figure out how to access them without falling back to mouse. >> the Emacs graphical interface [in sense of use-dialog-box and use-file-d= ialog] is half broken. > > How so? Specifically, what's the problem? One thing that frustrated me once upon a time, was a dialog window I got tr= ying to close the last frame of server-less Emacs (FWIW, no mouse was invol= ved), that asked the usual question about saving buffers, blocking the sess= ion, but it had _no_ =E2=80=98cancel=E2=80=99 button. I could try to press =E2=80=98close window=E2=80=99 again, but it had not b= een quite obvious which of two UI design patterns Emacs would follow here: =E2=80=94 closing the dialog window =3D cancel (this happens to be the case= , after all); =E2=80=94 repeating the destructive command twice =3D force it (like e. g. = C-d in Bash when there are background jobs) =E2=80=94 definitely not what I= wanted. Perhaps, I was too stupid, but it took me a certain time to came to idea, t= hat toolkit dialogs in Emacs might accept C-g as well (yes, they do). --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iIMEARYIACsWIQRSX35grYEsI2F1K7TIsPhUjufz5wUCXs3lFg0cZGFnQGdudWku b3JnAAoJEMiw+FSO5/Pn9wsA+gL8GfK3zGxGzHN6yUMzVlxcR1eYkxEp4nFwe7oV HRAjAP4pPoJd9k/FWVkKJFpblxJD4GJFutxpFgx4jMapk7yMBQ== =ruUC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 27 00:58:07 2020 Received: (at 41532) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2020 04:58:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47991 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdo8k-0008Oo-MD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 May 2020 00:58:07 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:51644) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jdo8i-0008OK-O1 for 41532@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 May 2020 00:58:05 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 04R4vjjf100630; Wed, 27 May 2020 04:57:58 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=XAhVWuV0qzW14Y3Hg8hsauji9/ali79gJAN1W8hQ2qs=; b=SyOJTEvbM6aWE+zjG4mfrtc+1vDkrf+lyoNfV/9kRelpZlf6c10PitMQY1UiENbLFVbq 6wPyU6HhbPyLrzpxx2T3CMaEnh6KBxVmRnUN8UbdyjOTKy9Hgp//jKWkFF0nFtumS/Qj a81Fj3D+zTiuL2ILVHz02GnGq2/W3OrviF56Ol/DQxXpqPi7WLQhY+TJMkWtaGqIZnRl ORrHuswwZcufEEmnegYw+rkBz56fA3bYDY+iqYsPsZleP9GRW5BCMfPeDtaJfOe7VL4k 80OtMChp6xMP7Yd2jzkwCNhE7oLrwjW3hhlD8Ye22Wq3eBmu6zO2OS3dyez6S7CouIxm Xw== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 318xbjwb13-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 27 May 2020 04:57:58 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 04R4vcCc021174; Wed, 27 May 2020 04:57:57 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 317j5qn56r-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 27 May 2020 04:57:57 +0000 Received: from abhmp0011.oracle.com (abhmp0011.oracle.com [141.146.116.17]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 04R4vlFU023003; Wed, 27 May 2020 04:57:51 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 21:57:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Dmitry Alexandrov Subject: RE: bug#41532: Why use the mouse in Emacs? References: <87zh9vgbkc.fsf@laposte.net> <304f1cd0-045c-4f34-924c-2ae2ca072cc0@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5005.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9633 signatures=668686 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2005270036 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9633 signatures=668686 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=999 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 cotscore=-2147483648 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1011 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2005270036 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41532 Cc: Kevin Vigouroux , 41532@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > The difference from some other applications, I think, is that some > applications pretty much _require_ you to use a mouse. What you say in reply to that statement is apropos. But just to be clear, I was really talking not - as you have, about accessing menus, dialog boxes, etc. by using the keyboard - but just about using the keyboard the way Emacs usually does when dialoging. Responding to prompts with text or char choices, using completion, etc. are alternatives that Emacs often uses to what other apps might use menus or dialog boxes for. > Yep, and that=CA=BCs partly true even for Emacs. Especially, when it=CA= =BCs > built with no GTK. IIRC, Lucid popup menus once were usable without > mouse, but they are not anymore for some reason, while --with-x- > toolkit=3Dno menus have never been. >=20 > There is M-x tmm-menubar, of course, but besides main menu there are > also context menus. I have not done a good research, but at first > sight I=CA=BCve failed to figure out how to access them without falling b= ack > to mouse. Indeed, such things are mostly mousy in Emacs. But as I hint at above, in many (most?) cases a menu is not such a great interaction device, with or without a mouse. ___ FYI, since you mention tmm - With my library lacarte.el [1], just as with tmm, you use the keyboard to navigate through the menu-bar forest and choose menu items. One difference is that you have the entire forest available at all times - you can access any parts of it - you can go up and down and all around. With tmm-menubar when you've gone down into a menu you can't get back up to choose a sibling, ancestor, or cousin branch to go down. But the main difference is that you can pattern-match against it, using completion. So you can go directly to some node in the forest, as opposed to drilling down step by step, forced to hit a key for every step. This pattern-matching is greatly enhanced when combined with Icicles [2], which lets you use regexp-matching etc., and which more importantly lets you chain together multiple patterns in a process of successive approximation. (Icicles also lets you act on multiple completion candidates during the same command (either sequentially or a set at a time), which makes menu exploration quite easy with the keyboard.) Pattern-matching and completion are things you can't do with a mouse. You can proceed to a node with multiple steps, e.g., completing a step at a time, as you might do when navigating the file system with completion. Or you can use a pattern that directly completes to a node (terminal or not) deep within the menu structure, much like you can do with glob patterns when using Emacs completion on the file system. > >> the Emacs graphical interface [in sense of > >> use-dialog-box and use-file-dialog] is half broken. > > > > How so? Specifically, what's the problem? >=20 > One thing that frustrated me once upon a time, was a dialog window I > got trying to close the last frame of server-less Emacs (FWIW, no mouse > was involved), that asked the usual question about saving buffers, > blocking the session, but it had _no_ =E2=80=98cancel=E2=80=99 button. Sounds like a bug, not a fundamental design flaw. Doesn't sound like anything inherent in Emacs. But if by half-broken you mean only that there are bugs, then OK. That's perhaps partly because the use of menus hasn't gotten as much love as dialogs using the keyboard, and that's perhaps because many Emacs users don't use the menus much, and many don't use a mouse much. > I could try to press =E2=80=98close window=E2=80=99 again, but it had not= been quite > obvious which of two UI design patterns Emacs would follow here: > =E2=80=94 closing the dialog window =3D cancel (this happens to be the ca= se, > after all); > =E2=80=94 repeating the destructive command twice =3D force it (like e. g= . C-d in > Bash when there are background jobs) =E2=80=94 definitely not what I want= ed. Definitely sounds like that particular dialog was poorly done. > Perhaps, I was too stupid, but it took me a certain time to came to > idea, that toolkit dialogs in Emacs might accept C-g as well (yes, they > do). And there's no mousy version of C-g. ;-) At least not in the general sense of getting you completely out of whatever you're in, no matter how deep it is. ___ [1] La Carte: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/LaCarte [2] Icicles: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Icicles From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 17 21:29:17 2020 Received: (at 41532) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Oct 2020 01:29:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35863 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kTxVd-0006lM-HY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:29:17 -0400 Received: from mail-ed1-f49.google.com ([209.85.208.49]:38910) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kTxVb-0006l1-S3 for 41532@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:29:16 -0400 Received: by mail-ed1-f49.google.com with SMTP id i5so6659229edr.5 for <41532@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 18:29:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ad+lTVPCPIuYceL1f990nXrasfJ9BnBeA2k0ULv9798=; b=Fuq+pnNGPvvnaCzyfZ8kzHkTSSo8bT97vcXPcwCyySaevBJ8IBLxa8/UIdcsLMRN1F Ur87H217Bgrw3s6N9Gdwdx8EmUcBoXj0WcrfeAcTdv+XNQWTsGTHZ4+1LlT/oGHHChTW ZCqdsBNnZcLyQsDx4ROzHVIMA9e4HBxMjBYfj4v0dwSWqouyRFQFbpyAS1pbDG8L/wFe jetrh0hshqbUEdAZJZ1k65VNGp5OZxbLZNvOqohtIT0v6Xk92AQhVyyvdPjKJKcgVluv F7WSDjvRjsx6+cXeUWqqDrfZrFI1kADbPlwnaihb8rhUNLfAZzYlrpsprEQTD+MrGGdP L6zQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530paPP0jEkqOZFdlSvUXFCqa3b1a3R+QCAN02glk8EEoORPYNhe b2Y//6xRjseTejyaPUtnqpoqmI5elh/YN6Eq4gE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwxZ3Hxgev1S/tTQgbFgDRomzJkLy7mTDK8Bnnd/e5FNka+7B8aWTTafnAfYE6swVA5ovGpwAX0GIaqbsjplnM= X-Received: by 2002:a50:fa42:: with SMTP id c2mr11877328edq.282.1602984550121; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 18:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 01:29:09 +0000 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87sgfmoi9g.fsf@laposte.net> (Kevin Vigouroux's message of "Tue, 26 May 2020 16:58:19 +0200") References: <87zh9vgbkc.fsf@laposte.net> <304f1cd0-045c-4f34-924c-2ae2ca072cc0@default> <87sgfmoi9g.fsf@laposte.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 01:29:09 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41532: Why use the mouse in Emacs? To: Kevin Vigouroux Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41532 Cc: 41532@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) tags 41532 + moreinfo thanks Kevin Vigouroux writes: > The user experience is quite different when browsing the Emacs and > LibreOffice menus although they seem similar. The Emacs interface is > mainly text-based partly because there are few graphical widgets. > > Nonetheless, this difference is not always clearly perceived. It can be > seen in the following two cases: > > 1. Menu bar> Tools, Merge, Files... opens a window manager window. > 2. Menu bar> Tools, Search Files(Grep)... opens the minibuffer. > > Moreover, I think people may also confuse a text-based interface having > a good appearance with a graphical user interface. > > The issue may be: > > - Better describe or explain how to use the mouse in the interface, > > - Fix the menu so as not to mislead the user, What do you suggest, more concretely? I've read the thread but I can't find anything actionable. > - Rebuild at least partially the Emacs graphical user interface. This is a bit too vague to be actionable. I suggest coming up with concrete suggestions for what to do, and sending them as separate feature requests. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 12 08:25:25 2020 Received: (at 41532) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Dec 2020 13:25:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44186 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ko4to-00013q-UT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 08:25:25 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:47136) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ko4tm-000130-F5 for 41532@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 08:25:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=zrRYFnQo/whMRgiWfBxdMno0Lt5wCT3p1+jerpTv5Jc=; b=JOxw6TxLWRhoPFiAeSLh6hzcnD ZBT4Xo9VyjkM1GWgAyG/Y/TfaIi3DyPiV13llPFL3AoLar81gwRbZ7FjS7b7gW8zg+DVBJSC7XjVs J6tNdJYx2+nfxYFFj4HcdIJaPD+9sGlrry8JKa1GYkLvpJX9FZwN17dKmL4VqDnEebIE=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ko4tc-0006Kh-PX; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 14:25:15 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#41532: Why use the mouse in Emacs? References: <87zh9vgbkc.fsf@laposte.net> <304f1cd0-045c-4f34-924c-2ae2ca072cc0@default> <87sgfmoi9g.fsf@laposte.net> X-Now-Playing: Four Tet's _Sixteen Oceans_: "School" Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 14:25:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 18 Oct 2020 01:29:09 +0000") Message-ID: <87tusr2m2w.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: >> - Rebuild at least partially the Emacs graphical user interface. > > This is a bit too vague to be actionable. I suggest coming up with > concrete suggestions for what to do, and sending them as se [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41532 Cc: Kevin Vigouroux , 41532@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas writes: >> - Rebuild at least partially the Emacs graphical user interface. > > This is a bit too vague to be actionable. I suggest coming up with > concrete suggestions for what to do, and sending them as separate > feature requests. I agree, so I'm closing this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 12 08:32:18 2020 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Dec 2020 13:32:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44196 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ko50U-0003S6-4f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 08:32:18 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:47182) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ko50S-0003Lr-02 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 08:32:16 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=1saI4ng0ePU/Nb3ONdBnP+gmm6LJq4jxaC0A5gzqkZ8=; b=WShwXA/ikJaWOGwZDzsBucvSGH 3at61KagNw5NGvjzU8fli/7cfXg9hXtt+VrXGQCh684mes+lGSY2i623voXdFUmmQd5JUIG6+onOi VlYLzPyf9haJa55xMm/HpR9xXWJ19Qi/keXnH1dI2LLwEuifWJyKSL8PTR+/qqIlTHgA=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ko4tk-0006Kt-F4 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Dec 2020 14:25:22 +0100 Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 14:25:19 +0100 Message-Id: <87sg8b2m2o.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #41532 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 41532 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) close 41532 quit From unknown Thu Aug 14 20:53:37 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 12:24:08 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator