Package: emacs;
Reported by: João Távora <joaotavora <at> gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 17:05:01 UTC
Severity: normal
Found in version 27.0.91
View this message in rfc822 format
From: João Távora <joaotavora <at> gmail.com> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru> Cc: 41531 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>, andreyk.mad <at> gmail.com Subject: bug#41531: 27.0.91; Better handle asynchronous eldoc backends Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 11:56:01 +0100
Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru> writes:
> Please don't make it sound as if I'm the only one here having a strong
> opinion about proposed code. You disregarded the simple solution in
> https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=41531#8, and then went
Are you in any way trying to say that you presented a "simple solution"
that somehow magically solves the problems of Eldoc? If you do, you're
living in conflict with reality.
There is the problem to be solved. And then there are techniques for
solving the problem. These are two entirely separate things. To be
absolutely clear: you have not, ever, proposed an alternate solution to
the Eldoc async _problem_.
You talked and talked and presented your favourite async handling
techniques, like having functions return functions that return
functions. You contented that I -- not you -- should work with it to
solve the problem.
Callbacks, futures, promises, ad-hoc or proper, are just techniques. I
tried a couple techniques, including a basic futures-based one proposed
by Stefan. I didn't find any as compelling as the simplest and most
widely used in Emacs: callbacks.
For the quintillionth time: I AM NOT AGAINST FUTURES IN PRINCIPLE: I
just don't use these Eldoc fixes to shoehorn something rushedly into
Emacs. Make a new thread, or join the existing one:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-03/msg00935.html
Afterwards, propose a change to the technique, not only in Eldoc but
elsewhere, too. This idea is so simple that it boggles the mind that
you don't grasp it.
> urgent endeavor. E.g., Flymake is stable, and I don't have any
> particular bugs in mind that need solving.
Great. I'll just note here that it uses exactly the same technique I'm
proposing in Eldoc to communicate with multiple backends: it's curious
how that doesn't bother you. I would reasonably expect "futures" or
something else its implementation much simpler too.
> Aside: given that this discussion has user interface in mind, it needs
> more consideration of actual user experiences we'd want to allow. Ones
> not provided by eldoc itself as well. For instance, I think we sooner
> or later should have a callsig floating popup (in the vein of MS's
> editors) as an alternative to showing the signature in the echo area
> only.
That is addressed in a comment in eldoc-docs
;; Finally, output to the echo area. We handle the
;; `truncate-sym-name-if-fit' special case first, by selecting a
;; top-section of the `*eldoc' buffer. I'm pretty sure nicer
;; strategies can be used here, probably by splitting this
;; function into some `eldoc-display-functions' special hook.
I agree there is ample space for improvement, including a
"floating popup" (which I wouldn't limit to callsigs though). Make
another bug report to study this.
> The new API is incompatible with the previous one, it requires
> changing a lot of functions (though admittedly in a minor way).
This is demonstrably false. As I've explained to Eli there is no
incompatibility in practice. 0 (zero) third-party extensions make use
of the protocol being changed from Eldoc 1.0.0 to Eldoc 1.1.0, unless
you're stalling here to secretly work on one.
But if we really, really wanted to, it's easy to get rid of the
arguments, too, with a variation to the callback technique. I just
don't think it's worth it: a technique is a technique.
> is easy to miss, as evidenced by describe-char-eldoc which still
> doesn't accept any arguments.
Oh, an actual useful comment! Easily solved, thanks. And it was only
"missed" because it wasn't used anywhere.
> Whereas we could limit ourselves to the change which would only make
> the clients use the different hook (or keep using the old one, for
> compatibility with older Flymake/Emacs versions).
Compatibility to the old `eldoc-documentation-function' protocol is
fully guaranteed.
> The choice to require a return of a non-nil value if the callback is
> going to be used is also kinda odd (+1 control flow to test). What's
> the problem with using the callback synchronously if the doc is
> available right away?
Nothing, you can do it. As long as you return non-nil, non-string. But
if you are are going to synchronously call the callback on a string, you
might as well return that string, just seems simpler.
> The decision to double down on having different
> eldoc-documentation-strategy values seems odd to me in several
> respects.
>
> First of all, if I understand the main motivation behind it, it's to
> delegate the implementation of asynchronous primitives to Eldoc.
It's rather to make clients don't worry about the synchronization. Not
specifically to make Eldoc worry about it. As soon as you and others
come up with the uber-async library, I think Eldoc and Flymake and many
others will be very pleased to delegate work to it.
> We don't want to bother with that in Eglot, etc. But you mentioned "a
> type of docstring" to be returned in the discussion (and the callbacks
> have the plist argument as a future proofing). If the type is a
> buffer, its contents might as well be created from several async calls
If you want to support "buffers" as a "type of docstring", just do that:
make buffers a type of docstring. The obvious way is to have multiple
sources produce multiple buffers.
Thing: why would you ever want to put buffer-joining complexity in the
client? They're not in the business of doing async gymnastics, they're
in the business of serving things coming from servers as efficiently and
effectively as possible.
> , which would require the same async primitives (though rather in
> general purpose form) available on the client anyway. Though it
> doesn't seem to be necessary for LSP in common operations, it's
> unlikely to be the only such protocol we'd ever want to support.
I don't know about that, but if we did, the current mechanism work
nicely for the example you presented.
> The strategies themselves:
>
> - eldoc-documentation-enthusiast: What's the difference compared to
> the 'default' one? Sacrificing CPU load for lower latency? It's an odd
> choice to force the user to make. The only people who can make an
> ideal decision regarding this are probably the authors of
> eldoc-documentation-functions, but it wouldn't help if
> eldoc-documentation-functions has functions coming from different
> authors, facilities, etc.
Has nothing to do with CPU. This is the way Eglot works now, or at
least tries to: there are two delayed doc-producing backends, and
neither is guaranteed to complete. One has priority over the other (and
special hooks are a decent, standard Emacs way to manage priority)
Eglot shows the lower-priority one if it shows it can survive for more
than x seconds (currently x = 0.3, uncustomizable). No more doc
blinking.
> - eldoc-documentation-compose: Okay, this is kinda interesting (though
> not essential),
> I think the only reasonably predictable behavior would be to truncate
> each of them to one line, always.
That's a display problem, not a composition problem For now it works OK
for one liners and also multiple multi-liners. Displaying doc is not
the main goal of these patches, there is certainly room for improvement,
as I said above.
> - eldoc-documentation-compose-eagerly: Ooh, now I think I see why
> Returning futures instead (when async is needed) would provide this
> kind of guarantee without the seeming duplication of signals.
Can't let go of that futures drum, can you? It'd be a pleasure to see
you walk the walk.
> On a related note, I believe some facilities might want to use only
> certain "kinds" of documentation functions (as indicated by the plist
> arguments). If the plist is only provided together with the response,
> there is no way to avoid unnecessary computations (e.g. making HTTP
> requests that return some other kinds of values). If the plist was
> returned together with a future value, however, it would be easy to
> do, as long as we document that the futures should start the
> computation until a callback is provided (if possible, at least).
Save it for your future futures implementation.
> And in a different high-level argument: you stated that you intend to
> have Eglot use a non-default value of eldoc-documentation-strategy.
OK, but this has nothing to do with Eldoc, does it? Make a bug report
for Eglot, I'll explain why it does this, and maybe I'll change it..
> Next, eldoc-print-current-symbol-info is a mess, very hard to
> follow. I am frankly offended that you argued that both ad-hoc futures
I meant no effense.
> idea). This should very well be possible to untangle in the future,
> but I'd rather not have code like this in Emacs if we can help it.
You're such an ace programmer that you code alternatives that are so
brief that they occupy no code at all!
> Further, having all strategies basically delegate to hardcoded options
> inside eldoc-print-current-symbol-info seems to confirm that the set
> of available strategies is a closed one. Which is not what I would
> expect from a variable called eldoc-documentation-strategy.
There are four strategies to choose from but you can make more. What
did you have in mind?
> These are my objections, for now. I'll have to study
> eldoc--handle-docs a bit later, but any problems it has are probably
> orthogonal to the rest of the list.
Thanks.
João
GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham,
1997,2003 nCipher Corporation Ltd,
1994-97 Ian Jackson.