From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 19 10:21:20 2020 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 May 2020 14:21:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50706 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jb37P-0004KW-EV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 10:21:20 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:55178) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jb1ze-00006s-64 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 09:09:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57516) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jb1ze-0000aI-1S for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 09:09:14 -0400 Received: from sonic308-19.consmr.mail.sg3.yahoo.com ([106.10.241.209]:35491) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jb1zb-0004OU-Bp for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 09:09:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com.sg; s=s2048; t=1589893742; bh=klZrqPgeFIh4Pm1O4S+mWcLQ8E67150S3rIlGMwceNk=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:From:Subject; b=D7PD/0YbmjZ3Hg4QmO9416kv6KbtInhaT1QQqRkUo2GjQxFWpacxRMfiy6A7v7g+VpcdaRPyy90mq/Ka2J+8l7HzLiIz6DoToUEbt8B9im3jGZvMSnYOSnRJnr87oubdOrm9xskZPtQZbh66zSjiWNfbLs2J8fjUye5Rs4GCQL/adXlS+ETjIszp46mLZtskEp0UY/1jTh49iIwMphCOVE8f3Hy9qQz2lMWnM+5mrwYjkVmFhfOfKuI8hFpO9taXZr+ACWHhNoLPx0yfAtPWt2AxOcv4GHgEfJGpKtA8e1AzPHpR+fbrw67TyUtrhE1AGNIivxhgpU1x0Y5y7PxPPA== X-YMail-OSG: tyJnjXwVM1lHEsYGQuiJVodyS0IocG8by7Kp._P8dMAGfDDJj7DnojcdI0tnl3l HpFLwCG9l5bdKr6SYv_igS6dHsLzjMjBPk0SdLpK40FWeUfgdjejmuDYa5Qk3sOlNmk3katoc1cR SrX50BoJriS_nyOpL87nDa3MQgGMqmh0ZVulo2l157AvcCoJV.Ltpg9xDRUrOkaPrCZXTZoScNBP fYk63m_MjZjj1dBh3PCvMB62tS76k9HbKp8F7YINldUaSncqwxzAr633FEunuKDYrtu9LdAau_mC lNh..sy0vmsReQowvxmEyMZ08_8_Q7tARIP.AJUM6i6RX1rEHt5r4tOuTr0cUZjd4uTT7LE6JUCj INX47HZ_9jlt91Ex2Y7ZJeqE7Ho8QNv97UhGvTcfPjXnoIy.wW8RUP6MgOcbbLELwpQ2ceFN2XJs Jf4Daa80tHTBBjzcrfVeXdtkCQRY9hqJEi3BHlzRvasAtDmmpxOIrXalO9QQHPGVbmW704eRI16N z3.IOuLReWGc_mEJFNwJTT4caGrIwZNpv.uCD.gmoZIyPZURQqonGurD2qBQzRzXhSpTsfTd4d22 mjpMbZBryWRAImQqYKDvpZCOerGvPLaPF3E92_8rNpXm7_IcmnRJy5rZC2ZMEnV1dqlDb7ebuYD5 Rd.woFxGmMREhrzTllzr2x7p0O0Y8nRDhAXc4Bgea7mAjjK4IpUDzGsucJIVHasTerhnEzEcgmvs _d_QYVt5BbAL5jpLHABt5EOvMQuWW1nZMWVCmYTkZh1nL.OrP6hK3nFiSfGhndSy_XwVNONYtbwR DTATxehb_sgodxXNlmoUyX7rzR1q1EjVlheOe8.RR9u4nMA6wzezLNkSaLZ_y1V2IoSArBxvVmNX 1sBbGY1dPAcxUAXSsKGA70cUsUS8sYgBz6YPf0BGqs1zxKv7zqk_lnyFs121shyouU7awsGDL.Nb QuVLvGU6XYjXpjPi6atGp7F2cKePEMABFxlc2Lgi8X4BYiw0haQMtk7QlXSFKr7DQT6wGw70DAHz WKmmeE3pS89mRfKhFD9psqb3WBqQDkQjygws8Eb2HvJ.0YJDY2ON3jXfveHwGqUdmBhAsRbYkxBD LDk85kjTKVXet31Td5mX6jLBwGbpBcUgDDzrq9DyYS4MPo2nyrmop0XJe961uLXR2eC8I5EbVFzf .aB1R_FO0MYEsAM4MmNGhhlKeUxJ7YbL6p8Tevm8TaNL7az3aQRJkuOBVFwyeAj6zLYGACxPmXUe cB4M.eWvxT9giKVtB5tOUOkKzy0JayR3CSaeM1.rOKJHp9scvf6a5N7xt2wuHxNLSC.j.jGMVsgy ZD3ADQMejvQJC0jGzLLtA4ATZ4wF43JRE2UhDNawg Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.sg3.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 19 May 2020 13:09:02 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 13:08:45 +0000 (UTC) From: Andrew Goh To: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" Message-ID: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> Subject: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1158426_1446748627.1589893725279" References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15960 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/81.0.4044.138 Safari/537.36 Content-Length: 2148 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=106.10.241.209; envelope-from=andrewgoh95@yahoo.com.sg; helo=sonic308-19.consmr.mail.sg3.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/19 09:09:03 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -3 X-Spam_score: -0.4 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 May 2020 10:21:14 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) ------=_Part_1158426_1446748627.1589893725279 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello GNU Emacs team, Can you find a more user-friendly way of using GNU Emacs without referring to a two page landscape GNU Emacs Reference Card? I understand that C-h is control-h, but what is M-x for example? As for the ELisp language, well, now, concurrency is supported on many languages, could ELisp be updated to support concurrency fully with Lisp threads. I was also wondering if you can add language extensions for Ruby and maybe Julia too. Regards, Andrew Goh S M ------=_Part_1158426_1446748627.1589893725279 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello GNU Emacs team,

Can you find a more user-friendly way of using GNU Emacs w= ithout referring to a two page landscape GNU Emacs Reference Card? I unders= tand that C-h is control-h, but what is M-x for example?

= As for the ELisp language, well, now, concurrency is supported on many lang= uages, could ELisp be updated to support concurrency fully with Lisp thread= s.

I was also wondering if you can add language extension= s for Ruby and maybe Julia too.

Regards,

<= font style=3D"font-weight:bold;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" s= ize=3D"3">Andrew Goh S M

------=_Part_1158426_1446748627.1589893725279-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 19 10:43:21 2020 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 May 2020 14:43:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50728 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jb3Sj-0004ua-46 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 10:43:21 -0400 Received: from mail-qk1-f181.google.com ([209.85.222.181]:33902) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jb3Sh-0004uG-Vi for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 10:43:20 -0400 Received: by mail-qk1-f181.google.com with SMTP id 190so15410728qki.1 for <41403@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 19 May 2020 07:43:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=DlMMM5BRIk0CM917+c55LPuhC8NGCFavlUT9LIpzhdI=; b=KXoOEpP2atGe6lfKFZ5Nu8VoiAdWQ0S3AEQZVDWHLWtyUMKhlTABqo3yViI/i2ezyJ 4XTcbbqgsUNOL2Mmn1anZuxxZ6Wtv8cKJbfg/o5SBFZRfnRJebg6jgMw0FTNXi+jKo2+ kYkpuGdPVIT/kAYC4wv7G/Cmyyvxq4LTOP/+CuStsIz0kizkFmt4C+DI9Dw8UCh0Cv3C OwPoqmtjKxn0nRI/h1T1MFWX0OvOC+IS0OQpo4CajJ6Ci7q6bjC0etWxmLaeoDRwbUjL OPZgyEJOaH9M7ElPAroNeC/uJ8nK5JmuBViJmQpfY3JAqaC/xep9SHgxj+yCcDcVh8BN Dfww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=DlMMM5BRIk0CM917+c55LPuhC8NGCFavlUT9LIpzhdI=; b=UFGNZsv4Ptf3w8rzG+PO0q6XUBh4CiZQKNOtD1s+eE7oKrui3npauSAxmvLiZ5d8jz beoCaneBxt0Pc2UXskNlFqTtwDkNh4vEXEAg7ukrzHRsQABuk5Thrz0d6mVl7oK7nq6s Z0fakKRBu7mx2DX1/LxmHikLPpk2mBqfrOervdBc27IKF+FbXfnRiCbdA83wUupaq73Y zPH5gmpP23po+uK8SRVtfvbOFqCIWYJ8A8g+dptNme6MGt9LAah0qCU8ruvPfzX7WYio 1nuQYIB+/igABYPH3kS4DWW9NNRy+pAn30AZv/swYALYW4vScNP/i6thNjzrnzCkXgeH cnXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532TKIuZO9PEjEvUWmUwRhfKRB1YKog53T6s57DXiusAQig7G8OY /aqjCBHhNLjgwur4P+6obQRO+4gaKWaRWDPTWkQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwvLnrMCxfjop13bnnJ36Zmt9rAEnX2Id2VWv4AZ45WPhovBViJb8ReA9XOkyVEez+IYzUdIFBcL7og2XmdIkc= X-Received: by 2002:a25:6883:: with SMTP id d125mr38112356ybc.43.1589899394332; Tue, 19 May 2020 07:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 19 May 2020 07:43:13 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 07:43:13 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs To: Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Andrew, Andrew Goh via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" writes: > Hello GNU Emacs team, Thank you for your interest in Emacs. > Can you find a more user-friendly way of using GNU Emacs without > referring to a two page landscape GNU Emacs Reference Card? I Do you have any concrete suggestions here? We would of course like to do things better, but we need concrete ideas to do that. > understand that C-h is control-h, but what is M-x for example? M-x runs the command `execute-extended-command'. I'm not sure if that's what you're asking. It seems like I'm missing something. > As for the ELisp language, well, now, concurrency is supported on many > languages, could ELisp be updated to support concurrency fully with > Lisp threads. This is an ongoing discussion, and is anything but trivial to resolve. I think we all agree it would be a good thing. I would suggest you read the recent discussion on emacs-devel about this. One actionable thing today is to move forward with using lexical-binding in more core libraries. Anyone could help us with that by writing unit tests for libraries in Emacs that are still using dynamic bindings. That would give us confidence to move these libraries to lexical-binding. If you want to help, we would appreciate it. > I was also wondering if you can add language extensions for Ruby and > maybe Julia too. Do you mean here that you want to extend Emacs using Ruby and Julia instead of Emacs Lisp? I think that's a no-go, for various reasons. One important issue for me is that it would fragment the Emacs eco-system, and force users to learn many languages to extend any part of Emacs effectively. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 19 18:48:49 2020 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 May 2020 22:48:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51430 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jbB2W-0004Sr-SC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 18:48:49 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:60445) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jbB2V-0004Sd-3T for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 18:48:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1589928516; bh=lQ94sAQ96pDDaBlTDRQYgFSkGT5XqHJk3eZULc/Sat4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=bLTkBQm64Ku+nFv1uPR8+HgCSTVzpmQPXGpDYXD6FighqAxZgyiWR8w/zPDS1sBbt //lSlT21GXmYIHRJbPf1K6Zes+CA40YMke8KLcEHTT5LIdtYRnoyW0TzqGB1H4VVeo 16hE2CSV4o6loaOZU4MHdEUEcewL/9PmjIdg53nY= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([188.98.100.187]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb002 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LwI74-1izIBG2Q6o-0182cR; Wed, 20 May 2020 00:48:36 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 00:48:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Tue, 19 May 2020 07:43:13 -0700") Message-ID: <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:buLwcZaezMGHWH0HyQraN6MIatKtfbEmmoQ0tiAQL9Up31YMJPk lZxjjHDndBnL2E3BFgO/0fubBcJ2AaAsZ+IcUY1bCPA1CG+3GaOsmSzJlB8H+N025VqhDor R7nWRczkbgvlz05HGPM5UP7ZQ/2aJbfpS0R5XYAIGhJCr/uL55tEMUtzRSk6P7w3jS5B9W4 L3NQgwlKywpNqB0UKkgcg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:e5cncXYwK4A=:/65FyRoBzkzuO/drAYpCwf JkQuT9TuLShUeCXQJtBZw3yZM+Cdac/1Jryf7dlfH6o1MQcsmc0ZGIG0L5lNSFigakHPMjmBv j5VqXZMgGztFILwjhvd9bfKUuDdiZfOj3uBldZuIwvJpQtmrSMXQ7FObgLkvZMXHf/HoVz7SP Kf6P1p/+MM6U2QuFw01C7VOkWGNhgxDpX5IMW3TJ8/WhPeR5EC0FMMI0WJbJYjpayf8PcBmyG htG7cAZSNDS0ps654T1Hi3iX5t9gNN4tfuZvJHXW4fOPjAKDOh3pJ4Hm7l7OQIJimzPlqWzgR N7udxYUsLKQbRNpZbhp+QwvbhDveP7riQ/lHsWd2kcSIXRmnoCPMvgE/c6Fm2+rJndVxMJRB8 w3Kb9qotfuhWB5fEBK+BppK0ii9ac2HAnL2m+yKD9QaDmqIqnjw0vM4gxwgwVGKLVbodQ5MQI 2vMDFSyOmrSvc5oQMd/d5l8ioAu2qEpwYF+3OLqK15hVvK0e+LZGtc/P4Y5FN/ygNcKDssFf5 lubRVGUKdUcQ313jXk9JprB+v921AIFOFXh5ucJ63Ju2Gw3sEpq9120gYEqKyKsn6EPgcLmOo 7e0hNbuSuOCkdiXpDv3ttSetvh7o3zJpi5AAM9jsBMsXGiCOoM3JhfwL+pjg2Y2YF2KgQHruz NK3PVdE2BBg3dwILA+ANFKKowvXYXa/e53kkG2selqMZ8oYUmC5jrSJB5cLfqRtO74y7BY9do uXAENWGaAsc+wYxNnc6f+eaNnfl19ss/0cBq6GrA9x+76/5o9RYiVcuTYPglfdnGQUpcYplMn NDbYfNbCv03YzQetVrNA/TSZOg5qT1Jlawhf2J4Ym+NiRoZdiv4PLOGgLrP1In+TvETLTHUa8 +AdB/PiknsT0BvAYVa2mYxT/4YWx95lthlOlX0ERyWoDToxCcSrFmoS6fKNNpccFRjUy7W0j/ rVZ2MJbGK92O5+XsWrIcleOqRxrpW/4BjYKrQ+kG1o4CoC8RO/xqkcdKphScJlvRZNwLxOPzK CT8+rlJ7FZ5F/+MOtWz8YeFsREzldkO79N8DVjrsfv2gyrXw0M1eeFH8B8qyQJG38lDQ2JeC+ VSd1UmHKdxQ9tc16sFwX1IPX7npQY2CSUeRKg5wSoqiTWOaZNAltONAOhryiq74aeoQu4O8CS sOFpPtt1FBmxDxigNTHDEBMb9XHeojyRUJzROqyoAMbllwhB77ObM0oyNPl9vee1C11laXH9s ne75JR1VnTx8jRNEW X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Stefan Kangas writes: > > understand that C-h is control-h, but what is M-x for example? > > M-x runs the command `execute-extended-command'. I'm not sure if > that's what you're asking. It seems like I'm missing something. I guess, the key, M-x. The refcard assumes that people know what it (meta) is. It would probably good to explain it. Apart from that, I think the refcard offers a good overview. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 19 19:02:08 2020 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 May 2020 23:02:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51454 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jbBFQ-0004nF-8v for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 19:02:08 -0400 Received: from mail-qk1-f172.google.com ([209.85.222.172]:39821) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jbBFO-0004mm-4X for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 19:02:06 -0400 Received: by mail-qk1-f172.google.com with SMTP id 142so1743419qkl.6 for <41403@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 19 May 2020 16:02:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=StYsl6jj8CGmtEoPp6JhvmCyEKfRNUrNGdUtTmLlFNk=; b=I/k4o/09R5uZdpcanqgTzVG4B7StxR+2uD0wgFEJDlABJ0sT+/VkQiXis7Ynx2SRAx XbktVZI6ZsCod3w4+2430EnhE0PjOrMaCcdPXm765ycngnANRe5RcPCWVwz6jzEYiMiq wbwJCESB40N8SNb1xQDqsbJ44w++EQHuHbsHCZKTx0BX7m3DRqds/+qFFAs7QZWo40i5 /cuxtaXzYftL8xuEsnnjPrbXKj88OL7hMnjlMKALhU8K0mvcSKCeZHYShXWCfuPAn/RM YqBSLWV1G3V3sGkV18xxfo84vfUuTg2FNjo6IIctwr5MYU3R5gGMwglOvRTY7sJ0w//T tEfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=StYsl6jj8CGmtEoPp6JhvmCyEKfRNUrNGdUtTmLlFNk=; b=ewa07fuzTtR8u5rypkHk60lR831qQ79UA9DdGo5D+DJZdRo+Wv0drhMA+K1P9IGYWM aCesDVX/c2VTT5BqylO+6hbbdWuMDrsBBcrZlWaEtuegsOO/DEqFikZhfvCIiuOR7dfx LLvgaXze+lVEko0x2pKq6459CFbQgaf725DxK26ZBPjxkMbpLCeL4Sy7SEFeCvM50MK2 UF7/dR1kMbR4ddektDYQ5oeVbFyHp75V5opp6oyvhg1WJKc6mpnSw/yrnz6IdGylL4oj IyCbsZ517u85fmlij/6FR4IDSk9nqp2rggydeEVI8AsowuNsWnjjkppr1F7vkb8/7Ww1 CcGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5337pwYVuYZ8Iaci9OAkl7ESyfopU1sCSTCAYyDDxWBdC9c+FVJ5 nlP1ooG3ZGpck4jHM93ViXVe6drc/MB6h6VQR3E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyML8pxd8ajz0knUYqpPY1fKiXpffAchg5KcRiOJnSMdSVl/6GAhhnS+lNiS4g4oyvZ83zv/GhIC+s3VxX3PiQ= X-Received: by 2002:a25:41cd:: with SMTP id o196mr2773828yba.181.1589929320647; Tue, 19 May 2020 16:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 19 May 2020 16:02:00 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 16:02:00 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs To: Michael Heerdegen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Michael Heerdegen writes: >> M-x runs the command `execute-extended-command'. I'm not sure if >> that's what you're asking. It seems like I'm missing something. > > I guess, the key, M-x. The refcard assumes that people know what it > (meta) is. It would probably good to explain it. Right, okay. If that's it, I agree that it should probably be added. If we do that, we might as well explain that "C-" stands for "Ctrl" and "S-" stands for "Shift" while we're at it. (If there's enough space.) Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 19 20:55:44 2020 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 May 2020 00:55:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51616 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jbD1M-0001FS-DB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 20:55:44 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-f170.google.com ([209.85.219.170]:36046) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jbD1K-0001F1-0u for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 19 May 2020 20:55:42 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f170.google.com with SMTP id a10so109514ybc.3 for <41403@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 19 May 2020 17:55:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7N3elCQhkogIsxxDmRnOIeBjZimj8/bnQLIHYkpQ7RE=; b=qQXe9Exk1FQ3aJniJItBjLtkZo/uhrJ6j2Cqaqx8NxcXJKpU1gytfKxi5K/EHagXwG omXRo0I3pXE8NLFpS0+3s1g4lXaXUsjPyeiTXJpzvmuvwHNlaNG2kyU2JNm8mlbKwQ0V 6dNKeOD+woeKIRauBbh8vjEzRZOWPNhPG5UZkTQmdoFcAxF4xay/rawtVscH2iRxY+F0 7QFqZAEGyQ5q2Te5wPTvgaxp48Q9qxsrc6qBk/TJD0IFEEMfcVwplIX38A7srj3ty2Re Z2uksmbjGG7pATQbAicM4kI9zp5mSWKMMjRsapfnULKO+qZO/f4sYMcht0cBolLO7UKu Zd4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533iXMJt7/cR2nHfT4ftc/W96z5UF3fkRe3ngA9/2lhXU9ozxEFj AOMWUEf4gJxfeLCfG8wXk1ki6LB1vBGpxJMmiow= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwPV4AY0pOaDntzDztdET9i26Mjy6YKvc15Gx1laVqIzLHe0aES1w8JypWWB72spXYibEw3nvgNDiw2tuATzGU= X-Received: by 2002:a25:ad4c:: with SMTP id l12mr3447202ybe.389.1589936136545; Tue, 19 May 2020 17:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 19 May 2020 17:55:36 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <1269710845.1235081.1589931944379@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <1269710845.1235081.1589931944379@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 17:55:36 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs To: Andrew Goh Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Hi Andrew, Andrew Goh writes: > Hi Stefan, > For the M-x command. All I wanted to know is what key combination on > the keyboard that I should press, just as C-h, stands for pressing the > Ctrl with the h key. This information can be found in the tutorial (C-h t): Emacs commands generally involve the CONTROL key (sometimes labeled CTRL or CTL) or the META key (sometimes labeled EDIT or ALT). Rather tha= n write that in full each time, we'll use the following abbreviations: C- means hold the CONTROL key while typing the character Thus, C-f would be: hold the CONTROL key and type f. M- means hold the META or EDIT or ALT key down while typing . If there is no META, EDIT or ALT key, instead press and release the ESC key and then type . We write for the ESC key. > As for extending Emacs with Ruby and Julia.=C2=A0 What I meant was to > provide a Ruby and Julia programming mode. As far as I can tell, there is already built-in support for Ruby. You should just be able to open any Ruby file and be ready to go. (There are many other useful Emacs packages for Ruby to find online.) As for Julia, a quick search reveals this third-party package: https://github.com/JuliaEditorSupport/julia-emacs You could install it from MELPA: https://www.melpa.org/ Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 20 09:37:47 2020 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 May 2020 13:37:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52661 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jbOuo-0001BV-OD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 May 2020 09:37:46 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-f173.google.com ([209.85.219.173]:37047) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jbOun-0001BI-FM for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 May 2020 09:37:46 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f173.google.com with SMTP id b123so988021yba.4 for <41403@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 20 May 2020 06:37:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PpYJMjvMi50nwzXsAtJHxJfHArWXRSVLtPygiB0X+xQ=; b=YYSeRH4Smpeft6iCeHne3lrhPv1balBrLZWI1bK60D4xhPPQ5wXDyMXi/pkHRbF0tk SKpyaHRmGXzZjRDa+v9w2Wm1po9U/YdIosfVH8T6oXmXztffnmvSlo7+txmrJWorVb90 AKAXsRM75sgpfaku63q/D2Q4MA12RGp2RS52wVgmE89L3sM0TeYCIcaoGck0YXyzGRBv LHq8IgWXOJ3UVrVo1CFvPX5ppn8V+FMIQDooDRGjlg/mHEpTvEbukmGetvdGAnvlFjc/ I19EpQ8A+AbKBtYUeRzDvEGtScNfRBkqSowCALAqOmHqjNTfcddp8IfIogSnvo4RWVEr ok6w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531hfnzdAvnveaut6Qbc1lLjq3Y8H4qjHb56f2yCvQIzqinDLHb1 OCCGdZuBVL9bTmqXKCw2xqvso9wfrDCvbnVd5Vg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx+2PSaANk/FR9zdpsVAlTOJU6tIsUVfkYlGtuZbTN4yQ3zdhD1rdlZXsYXEjoSOHJ82LvknfDCBf+WOAEQh4s= X-Received: by 2002:a25:9709:: with SMTP id d9mr6911158ybo.85.1589981859914; Wed, 20 May 2020 06:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 20 May 2020 06:37:39 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <919459122.1576791.1589981239406@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <1269710845.1235081.1589931944379@mail.yahoo.com> <919459122.1576791.1589981239406@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 06:37:39 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs To: Andrew Goh Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Hi Andrew, Andrew Goh writes: > Hi Stefan, > Thanks for telling me the meta key stands for ALT-whatever, and about Rub= y and Julia on GNU Emacs. > I think there is a need for a new (Emacs) Lisp programming guide, since t= he last book was written about 10 years ago.=C2=A0 It should start with the= basics of ELisp and show how to use other programming language modes. > Before I let you off, I would like to give these suggestions: > a.=C2=A0 Give the GNU Emacs package the look and feel of IDEs such as SQL= ite Studio, jGrasp or =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Eiffel Studio etc, with disti= nct database/file area, work area, and output area. > b.=C2=A0 Add another toolbar to add functionality in GNU Emacs and replac= e some of the Meta-key =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0and Control-key commands. > c.=C2=A0 Use the right mouse button for additional commands and functions= too. > Regards, > Andrew Goh S M Thanks, I have forwarded this to the bug tracker to make sure this is seen by others than me. We appreciate your feedback and interest in GNU Emacs. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 17 12:42:16 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2021 16:42:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32811 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRGwK-0002eg-CC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:42:16 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:48788) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRGwJ-0002eS-7S for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:42:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=x8mmYCH2sxzrRbU2JTBc8VnmT1ZZkp87yGtxhIF1tI0=; b=ljGMYA0vEkvuISxSSHRA8eINa8 rgdlPZL0XMhgqrFWQiksTo++e766e4QTPLa3iz7/PgW/q/TWrHOZ0U0QWlzWqAt1Ngy0uUOUu7pu6 b4XPUNOT2cSGixOR9yFFRla+D86QBrwLGmGKZdrpBdFplk+qMAl4fCNVAIFzzps9Km7w=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mRGw9-00022a-Sf; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 18:42:08 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 18:42:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Tue, 19 May 2020 16:02:00 -0700") Message-ID: <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: >> I guess, the key, M-x. The refcard assumes that people know what it >> (meta) is. It would probably good to explain it. > > Right, okay. If that's it, I agree that it should probably be added. > > [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: >> I guess, the key, M-x. The refcard assumes that people know what it >> (meta) is. It would probably good to explain it. > > Right, okay. If that's it, I agree that it should probably be added. > > If we do that, we might as well explain that "C-" stands for "Ctrl" and > "S-" stands for "Shift" while we're at it. (If there's enough space.) I don't think the refcard is the place to explain these keys -- the refcard is for quick lookup when you know the basics. The tutorial explains all this stuff, and that's the correct place, so I'm closing this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 17 12:42:19 2021 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2021 16:42:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:32814 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRGwN-0002ex-JM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:42:19 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:48806) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRGwM-0002eY-Ry for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 12:42:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=yAQVhkAHCwRQ4EZu40rCwCrNHdhoKeQhXxvCrMQddfk=; b=E+kgUR6/HGqLwvAY2/HVN6qfau GGuC2e5gf7Uw1YkxC2tB9i++HlemU4I6UG0xBW5jltJOSrcX/pJQFsl27hTIdoV3ciDxdhS0kfyWW w65dhXJGVDkHalxOeiqAfdNGF+Mkha0o8NmmGGD0IAKFPcSiPCDglsVJLN8XoSnWQt/4=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mRGwF-00022l-6S for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 18:42:13 +0200 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 18:42:10 +0200 Message-Id: <87y27vtaql.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #41403 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 41403 wontfix close 41403 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tags 41403 wontfix close 41403 quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 17 14:45:09 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2021 18:45:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33001 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRIrF-0001bb-0U for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 14:45:09 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f178.google.com ([209.85.215.178]:37812) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRIrA-0001ai-Hq for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 14:45:07 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f178.google.com with SMTP id 17so10447533pgp.4 for <41403@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 11:45:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qfyg1kTLyA0UQjSCJZgJ2+EnW2Lo9O4jtw0Qa5PzIro=; b=l2IL7on7HiBhC7feYj0WoCokWiKyxjhxX24ykx3l9D2+PGiQK400rsPZsJosQdzDEj lRyGw8gRkbm7klLnR4OH9rOx6jHxTXV6SaUBPlTK1sdorKRzAPlUfx/XB8hCA786jGRQ L50dguZZ7sZChlVO8ShgVfrxZ/YMVCI4t6s9x/h6xqqPHatVBz5E2ENgE1y8ONw6i8hw K8e58keWKdoAstJ5hn507HJ5FiHcKEVirH/oOjw13SlThPoYggReXAXbKtFZUyO5lpvr b95BSh2PHGuO9zilyf2SLN1erqOHlCNV+AfkTAKJw7XsEL00KhC9luudxboSgfFKU7Cm VA9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qfyg1kTLyA0UQjSCJZgJ2+EnW2Lo9O4jtw0Qa5PzIro=; b=AHi7+ahG+HHrWwsiftRDMWhyfqUuxVbDmeMkOD2sWQ7eg/LwzI4C27xgZVBnwQDp4U YZpI0xC0Tl5YSfYK/LjQ8VZWpy3orkvQvuG2orhoxe1ZStfZznqK2HzF6JZLar0frbAr hwrNnhRYaMkJAqVT33Is8SafnFXaykh/SuovGPWdjiQpuNT7tk4hz99eeo/4OFCdEOMG grtTppxUQuz6OMEbRuM/7GFpJXWvMxuHOT0F2tE7dzlUfVm434nFCdGrAv7iQWq0wQH6 /N47jbjtGuDFNrtgw8W9b0DrJ6iFFnv93zuDccjUs4wu/wVmAeQloAjUSSAL7udYWv8w nlBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532D3m7M4ppjenEZho5C5AnX79uGf/80hV2wCtT06vtH0dvzWP/h brJJzabDRNqnebHW9ingidbfPVsDdhMRJPNDSy4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyxM4SvCv851f0bGfD+xBQf2CY37oP+Qt9lS3uVycF1ciOQRZPe4PYgudM21KHH+NOOF7T9h36ZugiZNfjaKiA= X-Received: by 2002:a63:b349:: with SMTP id x9mr10985895pgt.139.1631904298258; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 11:44:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> From: Eduardo Ochs Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 15:44:46 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs To: Andrew Goh Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Andrew, there are many people trying to make Emacs more user-friendly, and experimenting with different ways to do that. Most of these attempts are announced at Sacha's Emacs Weekly News: https://sachachua.com/blog/category/emacs-news/ https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-tangents/ My (own) preferred way to do that is this one: http://angg.twu.net/index.html#eev https://github.com/edrx/eev#introduction In eev people can open a kind of an online version of a Reference Card by typing just M-2 M-j. It opens something that looks like this: http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-emacs-keys-intro.html and it is easy to define new (editable!) help pages. Also, I think that the best way to get help is the IRC channel: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsChannel Cheers, Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/ On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 11:22, Andrew Goh via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors wrote: > > Hello GNU Emacs team, > > Can you find a more user-friendly way of using GNU Emacs without referring to a two page landscape GNU Emacs Reference Card? I understand that C-h is control-h, but what is M-x for example? > > As for the ELisp language, well, now, concurrency is supported on many languages, could ELisp be updated to support concurrency fully with Lisp threads. > > I was also wondering if you can add language extensions for Ruby and maybe Julia too. > > Regards, > > Andrew Goh S M > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 17 16:57:43 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2021 20:57:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33112 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRKvX-0004p3-AL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 16:57:43 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f46.google.com ([209.85.216.46]:54012) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRKvU-0004op-4Y for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 16:57:41 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f46.google.com with SMTP id j1so7766495pjv.3 for <41403@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=H+/gibV3xiVrMrMWw6b7PM3Y2FCFxByglzGAXeEZvXc=; b=NdE9blej9fPvMNKHVGZ2Fe0ZP8K29dclt82V0sFIP/grGDgSSjxr6RAa+l4UaLnLTC zIfMRaYiPgnDpjw86ZrbbS0gam+sWA/RaY3W59tmo5HnkcRit2tY6Ils14cqm+byHLiW swXnXYz9umXnUFPaqOB9uv1lFto56NvYF+hw8b/aiwv5TMNnUouskEYS/zsvqhC28/ot 7haa+ipEa5mnqwRZkvG4bFD59HywkG3C2cNlXplEyEfQrmQyZK2gwZOViM7i0kUIm+3o FjBVcSLzJDOvh5g23muEgcGqREXLXJm+rlo2r0NIXgYeoFrLOFxOZ+vwCNa0BlDFqvl0 y0oA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=H+/gibV3xiVrMrMWw6b7PM3Y2FCFxByglzGAXeEZvXc=; b=5KCXJwvphI7i2WUeBp2laeCUMY/1bg2OZZoxwyr99TxffZ3Tje3pPfObTxiePPD/89 9N8ilEdJ0bmIIS6WePhftc6NCeJZDphd8ZvCV6OKTgX6Pu+asYxZPUMGHTP66lkYcmRL 9kDAAeHkXrrTYLcTuNmRRzapQ9gLE6Ia0khfZW7PxNdWLtUDRKCfGuNsX54b+h8ErOnW OEhDoKmRlhNAFTB/u9qNHfnoxyq1PxJVQ4JEtXM7pHuLHUXFTt96afSUgtKpFHLx8G6D zWdSzQRZgh4Smc+cvU4oGnDWhNyTjH/OPu1cGz3phoLdeQOFuv0wsAOpC/jkpRudD5+3 SW/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533mC4Rn35dIxNzcCUG+D+oG6yY1I2r1/LckV7yDCBFfOTdiPvtd l0V9C6DRVuY6S3+uIDeJnpZV8EhvEaKYkIRK1dE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxDP6ULHSt7TUW8d+2VNhdCsU2x6Ns6KYIMjtOPR9/qL7uQy2U67JjLjVhbkvpcKEpJgTpKwDLo3GU0ffmukFw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b691:b029:12d:2b6:d116 with SMTP id c17-20020a170902b691b029012d02b6d116mr11142052pls.71.1631912253941; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:57:33 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:57:33 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: >>> I guess, the key, M-x. The refcard assumes that people know what it >>> (meta) is. It would probably good to explain it. >> >> Right, okay. If that's it, I agree that it should probably be added. >> >> If we do that, we might as well explain that "C-" stands for "Ctrl" and >> "S-" stands for "Shift" while we're at it. (If there's enough space.) > > I don't think the refcard is the place to explain these keys -- the > refcard is for quick lookup when you know the basics. > > The tutorial explains all this stuff, and that's the correct place, so > I'm closing this bug report. I took a look at the refcards, and it is pretty full of stuff already. One thing caught my eye, namely this information: Starting Emacs To enter GNU Emacs 28, just type its name: emacs This seems useless, for two reasons: A) The overwhelming majority of users will click an icon to start Emacs. B) Any other users will already know to type "emacs". This leaves me wondering if putting a brief explanation of our strange key conventions on there isn't a better use of space. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 17 18:05:09 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2021 22:05:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33204 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRLyn-0006UF-Nj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 18:05:09 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:34413) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRLyj-0006Te-0u for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 18:05:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1631916295; bh=EdgyjuDM5MEv6f+6ZIjuIkNFl03KPVqzIZQlbhpGDjc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=sjGOyxNFEebBpsocIYqqVxy8g1Bh6iqHqOL65jCBcqxj07FIGaaTHW/nme+hwto8y HbZ9aSfhJRtXrXc2CtLQPhDEf7P4bI/HH3e15gW12kzM02MzmIiTUc74Qf1UUmZp9q ff0AKz0wUY93WCdXGvVlUOp5xZW+1gkXc8Z4y7Qs= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([217.247.77.50]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb102 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LsyNK-1mukns3dco-012cGT; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 00:04:54 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 00:04:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:57:33 -0700") Message-ID: <87sfy2eu4a.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:aBLX8kdaPQjStR+LBRQwpoTQjxgCmmJzw0yfuRCZOAJ0w2nuqj/ dNQa0C4+2YiNBM82Ah9MuRJ6LecmyY+h+RjjD/wxmEF42QafSCMrdZxQPQx0UnscQvbP6En nTZ+z829aczo04p8wI+q7wRDMz37utJJaxN6zqArlHlS7UTHcBX7pNJogmNK1AnZrS2DQvg ilhrsmiJYuGmCgnRio3QA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:kXVqvqSuQa8=:ZvnJ8x12vz7AOQZEPXTV8w +y/Qq2r/VmsxrazftIGBVOk/DIKG2wSt3sSaCMMQV/Q9WSkpf0cq9iMwtVVgjGsD0VFghgPhR loDZjuZAvJC355Nm1IbEP0YdKPb+CDBZ/v1pgsqflqlnB+Lfkaglqaqgauq7QWHkcozrNhlpc 6Q5lGF48SSpSK57X9tfdAYfgNDIRjJdOoJM5n+a5HT18fR+Xny2meeK0yI4Hc5ZXNqVsTNWCY fJY7wS1rGIrCejlIH0Y1C6I9lF4uCCn4CWRbWsvPsqAt00WCbbj6vS8PDtSabC19E8ijtvPQ4 i9Kknr3tvd2uds1E+Q/ITDDRRGS38NuTyS2BHlxMwdxEbUpXdXhQC4iH9n1zonO34SLfojzdN RanukQKGc1xnwyZcvX58jVJ9w0itfqLlb+M3Bf4mehB5ZVrD+UquLYOYmLqPSRkJxzpdE4YyB GrAL0BaeeU+tt5RQi7iPrviT1hXnUTycp4J1AjWRTPBuS4GizEI36g4uZt3plVGAF24b9qVoR HR8fchaPX2WM41gtgpztFe0URRhobBCa3DNlIKFAkd3hJg6P6Tdoz7GRGwj0TF+TTmUugLdWb nJ6voYz112uLN7ysMY/0JYtCr600HelVeYwLnM9yGKpkZwflPfrtYBmIwrorYyBCz0z0VZQeE PmZ0t3rOMLhqeKm5V6WRWg8GDt1+nPKn/nwc61NCgPv/JTlflhD8svo88cngNGONegILpGUQo 7WlTY24BwHcSIUYeNXvE0ULpXE3nbAj+7bzqxvvUvrZudOiJwKwSrjYtMpGIW3ktdfXTq1WcW nZPoj9rHkQDsZuUTwRtyGLbb/dK8EqSX6H6OWEQOff17brf/zdhgJSn7bPkLUNEZGgAVeteft Dw0fWxw2Bj2GYpFyuq2LBMEVlfY8794EleHIekPE70IzCYD6kai0n6o3HtBXHjMpp3+yI66os p8NQcfGoLI4bufv275DbYhHABRV1278T+Ma2edI7r8ty3h0LV04uJJWzr9p9S4Bhe/GFzrcsj reKwmLX3FO0FvIRjiTfUI7pFTOxZuSiZ75qRxymmefj1F0geFx5xoQuK5tpqpDM5EYrwTTfh9 /qFrTxd/s45xI4= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Stefan Kangas writes: > Starting Emacs > To enter GNU Emacs 28, just type its name: emacs > > This seems useless, for two reasons: > A) The overwhelming majority of users will click an icon to start Emacs. > B) Any other users will already know to type "emacs". > > This leaves me wondering if putting a brief explanation of our strange > key conventions on there isn't a better use of space. I agree. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 18 09:33:52 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Sep 2021 13:33:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33886 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRaTY-0001QQ-Ga for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:33:52 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:57838) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mRaTU-0001QA-0T for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 09:33:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=wu7a00rIGRDfz550NFe890XR72wHtAbpwJhnSCo4uPE=; b=YHhMNmoWD7cxSMcICMErisvcT9 vBHixCVOoQQnPIrrzA2qYvVhLEFxqoR/D6Mt/UtcxDqRv9szdpq0XJkX1Qh7av51kUIE+krD2Ybip CpKrc4HTt2Ip7QTeNulUg0aoPHiQEth1WIeZlM3cKBhIk2bO5Py3Xlq+58nRJnOk7Ixk=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mRaTK-0003h3-NC; Sat, 18 Sep 2021 15:33:41 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 15:33:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:57:33 -0700") Message-ID: <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: > I took a look at the refcards, and it is pretty full of stuff already. > > One thing caught my eye, namely this information: > > Starting Emacs > To enter GNU Emacs 28, just type its name: emacs > > [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > I took a look at the refcards, and it is pretty full of stuff already. > > One thing caught my eye, namely this information: > > Starting Emacs > To enter GNU Emacs 28, just type its name: emacs > > This seems useless, for two reasons: > A) The overwhelming majority of users will click an icon to start Emacs. > B) Any other users will already know to type "emacs". Yeah, that's pretty useless. > This leaves me wondering if putting a brief explanation of our strange > key conventions on there isn't a better use of space. That's true. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 21 16:13:39 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Sep 2021 20:13:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48119 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mSm8q-00083J-NY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:13:39 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f182.google.com ([209.85.215.182]:40642) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mSm8k-00082i-5Q for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:13:22 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f182.google.com with SMTP id h3so224401pgb.7 for <41403@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:13:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NQSnBtK0ES0mP7+ZmpZaxbqkm9kahO8nkQYdGEzjl8A=; b=h85OIWaXpfU8zK5kVz4c6D7GECjJfld1SDPXzmUyITjd+qw4l6IZ0oqeTPj0j0KU3q DO8RXuHAKkjp3AU4+8f2UII/ifL6d2+YrOjK6SSE2a+mx0ygZg9f6uWbfT3acSyTSop1 SBwAr28zwcLY6OqZqJn+CN970ZhVtywG9+gof2DsZ7GN0Ba1H6CxIjTbFMvtPlQ5HkHz K3q8NyNyhxoZndMX5ht1U8fdrdDQGowvgXagTKQt7DDc35oYcOoYvV2Iv4hqU0YwhJUV aGt0o3PqrnBvOXM+dlve/mXQfGFXGrQ84QSpneo/GswaxSAFPdvQqR2gYBApmtXtnsGc JuXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NQSnBtK0ES0mP7+ZmpZaxbqkm9kahO8nkQYdGEzjl8A=; b=tnpPXHRKCnkgPiBGpKr6wwLQeWGpnL8Je24r8AMiOwS8Y6S2ONCtU0WfeOMy26Pvp9 nxauQjCldQfatEK+M/NF7xi+6J2DzdPdQUihUmXrNk7mvaGtrmsuun+LsBdTvVnau9d0 31Ksda/wnRuWhHAy9h+vcguC+CGQ6TVC9HmpdvHJ9GDpKxdReBCWi4y9Eej+NgOaP7v6 KOPpTl7NivufmxfY685Lvu6+BoZWDGPPfK+NZgw907aczfJxbceAXC5hyux5PdPSuZME 868xY8bu721IHAKnRnFAhAcLu0l2iuowzaosUX9BLgh38yF1kiA7f3Rt++EZrn3ZC1Dw ToFw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ccz8T4icpFu8IRvT705xuZWop4EIFwBLLUpp0sNfjCtoVmMcL P7LXWvyveqrwBB5gMgWJL2PSRgU1nKtEcXsd/v8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyr/8hdW4kmpE9EAFJfOsScmO+r9lfzjPX8miOQrG0bDznrsb6xF7MiftWu8QFs9RN9hOk2wh3RQ/hjcJOMAtM= X-Received: by 2002:a63:a311:: with SMTP id s17mr29347077pge.359.1632255192223; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:13:11 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:13:11 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="000000000000ea700b05cc870612" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000ea700b05cc870612 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" reopen 41403 tags 41403 - wontfix thanks Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: >> Starting Emacs >> To enter GNU Emacs 28, just type its name: emacs >> >> This seems useless, for two reasons: >> A) The overwhelming majority of users will click an icon to start Emacs. >> B) Any other users will already know to type "emacs". > > Yeah, that's pretty useless. > >> This leaves me wondering if putting a brief explanation of our strange >> key conventions on there isn't a better use of space. > > That's true. How about the attached patch? I've checked it visually and it looks okay to me, but I'm not exactly a TeX expert. --000000000000ea700b05cc870612 Content-Type: text/x-diff; charset="US-ASCII"; name="0001-New-major-mode-with-font-locking-for-etc-AUTHORS.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-New-major-mode-with-font-locking-for-etc-AUTHORS.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: f9a4824192ba1795_0.1 RnJvbSAxOGQwMGRkNjJmNzFiZTM2ZTBjMTliZmRlMjVlN2EzMTY0OWVkM2JmIE1vbiBTZXAgMTcg MDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBTdGVmYW4gS2FuZ2FzIDxzdGVmYW5AbWFyeGlzdC5zZT4KRGF0 ZTogU3VuLCAxOSBTZXAgMjAyMSAxNTo0Njo0NCArMDIwMApTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0hdIE5ldyBt YWpvciBtb2RlIHdpdGggZm9udC1sb2NraW5nIGZvciBldGMvQVVUSE9SUwoKKiBsaXNwL3RleHRt b2Rlcy9ldGMtYXV0aG9ycy1tb2RlLmVsOiBOZXcgZmlsZS4KKiBsaXNwL2ZpbGVzLmVsIChhdXRv LW1vZGUtYWxpc3QpOiBVc2UgJ2V0Yy1hdXRob3JzLW1vZGUnIGZvciB0aGUKZXRjL0FVVEhPUlMg ZmlsZS4KLS0tCiBsaXNwL2ZpbGVzLmVsICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIHwgIDMgKy0KIGxp 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--000000000000ea700b05cc870612-- From unknown Sat Jun 14 19:13:48 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:14:02 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 21 16:14:52 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Sep 2021 20:14:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48126 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mSmAG-00086M-O7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:14:52 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:48280) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mSmAF-000865-6n for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:14:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=D3CM4XI0fhxKTd5s/EqAjb5z9jhLL+5M4nMkp4ZOcjY=; b=HGmBLlWHoJw4HUsugSRI5LDKjx AycNBkonFX7S25qZ7Wjrnvckr/YsT9nQp2J4b3PSbzRJBaGR+xPrfc8Xll02jDeYbArmwPum/sVTY dmKHMUml38r6D1+LeAE8tFDYdidQjdF7fyjXmXMOXqyIXneGNVpRKhTH1VwPsx5Qf4qU=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mSmA6-0001cP-44; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 22:14:44 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEVZOjkRDA3Mq5qw ODX///+IDTmbAAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+UJFRQOGphEOhUAAAGtSURBVDjLnVNbtqQg DEzIBoJuAGEDCPvf21RF7LZn7u2PiR7EVJ4VEM0/i9yAZudyi0sW8XhVuI9F19elADg86Rtw0Y3m G/48fXioq4szlC9FbLEw6beq/gF67tZ7nxNvyGUpYj7/EkXaPMXypHV/A13RqMnMT7Xh6QIPR455 vqGdQA9KnsCOR6ac7ADloiV2CQrRNmqBeSeJLz4rpMhNNTamu9qZ6iVN784dOeYMnRg/GpBkZ2La RxQZtZhN0BhAh54lkrlUGyLAY5/hoDGMQNqo88TOTFM9Lz3F52gAGDjVAnIG41U4jYZgNEGgYy9R bEYNEuTIVb9LavFFTQuAjIITUfsCUp+t1c4jAmmpCgEBUAxVqfhgUmQQdi8CD8bSq8Ke2OCe2CUA 6WDcFnnQGZdk/TJOH4DkdCIKxnsByhbBIIaUYvMC6jjwv8NtKzHxBaA7Ahuo9A+AUwjOdF2eBRTY RugBjydwLEDTffb99sDY+G/32V9Ay4MjzCvOO1QVVBUj85fDq/Nje1yhuItxMsUf6gv75aZ9A/zT TKN15ZYlrFPIm+G49K7/keMPXrpc4CRaBnwAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMDktMjFU MjA6MTQ6MjYrMDA6MDC3XRfpAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTA5LTIxVDIwOjE0OjI2 KzAwOjAwxgCvVQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult's _Confessions Of A Knife (Remastered)_: "A Daisy Chain For Satan" Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 22:14:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:13:11 -0700") Message-ID: <87ee9hy9ce.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: > How about the attached patch? I've checked it visually and it looks > okay to me, but I'm not exactly a TeX expert. > > From 18d00dd62f71be36e0c19bfde25e7a31649ed3bf Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 > From: [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > How about the attached patch? I've checked it visually and it looks > okay to me, but I'm not exactly a TeX expert. > > From 18d00dd62f71be36e0c19bfde25e7a31649ed3bf Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:46:44 +0200 > Subject: [PATCH] New major mode with font-locking for etc/AUTHORS Wrong patch? :-) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 21 19:07:19 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Sep 2021 23:07:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48230 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mSor8-0002NN-UP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 19:07:19 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f180.google.com ([209.85.215.180]:39661) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mSor6-0002N2-Tt for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 19:07:17 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f180.google.com with SMTP id g184so639427pgc.6 for <41403@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:07:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WhgfF5M/xk6YSjAyzp3gNAl9lCq4NbDmOCX2zIsiLy4=; b=aFfp0E8dmISn0plE2j6rZtN4ceGKyHIDC6biOPtIt1TRMu4KGTpQ4AlFQ3oXr+YQzK 5ZfQWE5Lozkl/IXXx7nVLX2eCdluz2COuCGDBh70V5hqVL0VUf5TA1hNIvawIWgJw4bR TLi+yWdnNiU89DXVAzAMV4YhZkf945A7iAZURQ9k/zr5D7P59Z1cfvF3tpv9R3Ybnyag jSFssaB0i9+k5xmF8nlV5vTgEOgEdwUSvENRrJ7rTWi0OM9QEVZHIobViG3nplPNVnNv OHw428yaZ1Uf+Y+nsDJ2mImJ2SOS9ksKkomwKgnDIbjr1OePUTUtoaKv4qVMqnYNUsdy 4x9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WhgfF5M/xk6YSjAyzp3gNAl9lCq4NbDmOCX2zIsiLy4=; b=EYcknq5tU/UpQZaU8IUKMhEYKiNkWLX7vH/OMM3nd4QKI5GYPHLfc4TBaHcjzvkD4a OST58Q2r80coAsvNSUKoW56gaMrM5V3y2cVsyWmbV0g1nzQ5vVNN03wkHFG6VdX6LJeW qDLkIfBLUZ3gN4zWH22Kbdvl+s7NnpwZ4JcEHB82Lsuj3uzriShQj+y2h3WA/xrvph1Y Ym32B5kqh2ZEY0jR1c/31Tnf0KnN4xlCNRnbCwF0+TKYKNBDRklSSeTIa+RSDvqYAVOi jMBMHSk8RJkPiXQaVJE/nCjSXd0PWe/SRUEOD/PTXGBXsAEY6rZ4KCml2Hgw/Nb2MTYF anhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531L4gcjv5jpYb1bOIISCbRoYhkYTXCIcW3WqnzUnocN4q4UDwEY 4rCt3zuitBCHtZ3Dd0ts2NDmTvvtcai0IJW90Vk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwBmAG7vmhB5HT59iP63+Q7aL7ZT8b2OGCHQYDXcGAGUGBG2HLgCIsG8Jv4XvKGPKScZzjMxq1vdM4WFbx/oBw= X-Received: by 2002:a63:f946:: with SMTP id q6mr30420134pgk.42.1632265631224; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:07:10 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87ee9hy9ce.fsf@gnus.org> References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee9hy9ce.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:07:10 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="00000000000020f31105cc89759e" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --00000000000020f31105cc89759e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > Wrong patch? :-) Yup. I hope I managed to attach the correct one below. --00000000000020f31105cc89759e Content-Type: text/x-diff; charset="US-ASCII"; name="0001-Add-section-to-refcard-explaining-our-keybinding-not.patch" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0001-Add-section-to-refcard-explaining-our-keybinding-not.patch" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: 21d15ca443c09fe_0.1 RnJvbSAxMTIyNWJlMDU1YzY4MjY1MjIzNmE0OWM4YjQ4MWQ1M2ExNDM2ZTQ3IE1vbiBTZXAgMTcg MDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBTdGVmYW4gS2FuZ2FzIDxzdGVmYW5AbWFyeGlzdC5zZT4KRGF0 ZTogVHVlLCAyMSBTZXAgMjAyMSAyMjowNzowNSArMDIwMApTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0hdIEFkZCBz ZWN0aW9uIHRvIHJlZmNhcmQgZXhwbGFpbmluZyBvdXIga2V5YmluZGluZyBub3RhdGlvbgoKKiBl dGMvcmVmY2FyZHMvcmVmY2FyZC50ZXggKFN0YXJ0aW5nIEVtYWNzKTogRGVsZXRlIHNlY3Rpb24u CihLZXkgQmluZGluZyBOb3RhdGlvbik6IE5ldyBzZWN0aW9uLiAgKEJ1ZyM0MTQwMykKLS0tCiBl dGMvcmVmY2FyZHMvcmVmY2FyZC50ZXggfCA2ICsrKystLQogMSBmaWxlIGNoYW5nZWQsIDQgaW5z ZXJ0aW9ucygrKSwgMiBkZWxldGlvbnMoLSkKCmRpZmYgLS1naXQgYS9ldGMvcmVmY2FyZHMvcmVm Y2FyZC50ZXggYi9ldGMvcmVmY2FyZHMvcmVmY2FyZC50ZXgKaW5kZXggZjA2NmRjOTNlYS4uYmMw NTc1NjlhNyAxMDA2NDQKLS0tIGEvZXRjL3JlZmNhcmRzL3JlZmNhcmQudGV4CisrKyBiL2V0Yy9y ZWZjYXJkcy9yZWZjYXJkLnRleApAQCAtMjczLDkgKzI3MywxMSBAQAogCiBcY2VudGVybGluZXso Zm9yIHZlcnNpb24gXHZlcnNpb25lbWFjcyl9CiAKLVxzZWN0aW9ue1N0YXJ0aW5nIEVtYWNzfQor XHNlY3Rpb257S2V5IEJpbmRpbmcgTm90YXRpb259CiAKLVRvIGVudGVyIEdOVSBFbWFjcyBcdmVy c2lvbmVtYWNzLCBqdXN0IHR5cGUgaXRzIG5hbWU6IFxrYmR7ZW1hY3N9CitJbiB0aGUgRW1hY3Mg a2V5IGJpbmRpbmcgbm90YXRpb24sIFxrYmR7Qy14fQoraXMgXGtiZHtDdHJsK1h9OyBca2Jke00t eH0gaXMgdXN1YWxseSBca2Jke0FsdCtYfTsgXGtiZHtTLXh9IGlzCitca2Jke1NoaWZ0K1h9OyBh bmQgXGtiZHtDLU0teH0gaXMgXGtiZHtDdHJsK0FsdCtYfSwgZXRjLgogCiBcc2VjdGlvbntMZWF2 aW5nIEVtYWNzfQogCi0tIAoyLjMwLjIKCg== --00000000000020f31105cc89759e-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 21 19:22:13 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Sep 2021 23:22:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48250 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mSp5Y-0002mV-WE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 19:22:13 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:49736) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mSp5W-0002mI-Ve for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 19:22:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=is0ovnxKdn8Pygr2gVTsEsIOktRfv/xil32gLJYz6Po=; b=Ca5WIYCO8IBmq8KhHjWWNnGdnY GrVBpYmjdINEa2h8ckUYkNuibKx5B2xujYfQAafLDsDAb7GbRgdONJSHiu/Pu+sUJ4HJ8k1nwxiXs +ynmAb1UTXftS1RLUVwFyP75FnReghyP4/q2L7jpWIsfW4jyvv1Xh5mo7KYIG68wXNgI=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mSp5M-0003PG-LT; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 01:22:04 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee9hy9ce.fsf@gnus.org> X-Now-Playing: Fred Frith's _Gravity_: "What A Dilemma" Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 01:22:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:07:10 -0700") Message-ID: <87h7edwm3r.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: > Yup. I hope I managed to attach the correct one below. Indeed. After managing to install the proper bits of texlive, it looks OK to me. Are these the keys that's also used on Apple keyboards? Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > Yup. I hope I managed to attach the correct one below. Indeed. After managing to install the proper bits of texlive, it looks OK to me. Are these the keys that's also used on Apple keyboards? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 21 20:30:26 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2021 00:30:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48294 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mSq9a-0004hU-2D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:30:26 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:50211) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mSq9Y-0004hD-JF for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:30:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1632270612; bh=YdAUCSs0wizCb+wbkPP/n41d12TzoG7PkJAKu7uxj+E=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=MGm5gG+dr46lvOVwlVMw1vNZ+UcK5MBWTWYDIrGZ1sJhETkJ8yro+zOxKYAQzqu3+ W9XCMN1IRZ1Z/5SuldhxFSZZzSebJuQT630t2kCpLKw44MGqcPPw/wRtzKhskLoIOG IiSXYiybPonRcB2qimCvoKebI1T5OR6E7rMtPOiQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([217.247.77.50]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M43GU-1mSq9M2adE-000VUc; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 02:30:12 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee9hy9ce.fsf@gnus.org> <87h7edwm3r.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 02:30:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87h7edwm3r.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Wed, 22 Sep 2021 01:22:00 +0200") Message-ID: <87k0j9jvu6.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:skD7mdoBR/QthehGf2q4XsrrhQeIdR/ci030i7DjzERS3AzTGoN wMCp9fC6AvkStnVTqcTCHPD99AzIQVh8PGA033gebWj3lmxMMoQYn9uUTjV+x5VFEF7bdrr q343KAPvzFJsIwlB/gJno/NEHFcYTqP5E8Y0RM8FRpaEaN0Eoeo4Pr75tXkHFpuHbduX7bC G3YZa3nMqCGQUoTMedbsA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:qUqLTgUOw6s=:bjqlsAdl2efWAwsEdzobGo Ft/9IAEePKWoPEsttTT6uVS6SGlkVQjEy3ROKxU+PaKVPnL8eJB6IqJQvyfS8H54rWoS26Hkc Vsk0iEJhWL7BqWDk5WvQNkTOvVnWlUmF1fTi7wi2lP1i6P3E3dZLZMuVZVrsM5GQDmICkbcyz YuXXSks4SO9kzVdRskbynQy9B5Bi8j+SK/Y3YxCmt0MXmHv4G7LQhvmQ/aFtMuK12ghqxBWQy Cxqx3dFti86JuaqhvNPAG0OeMy83deeO5wgCI+/oLifFHQ8t1MepWvv5Ai0rRO+kCUYE6Wpxo 4G3irNSlpkbaBw5mvUtvFJEpWTzfBOOdsvD+1b6yxyj5tFPj/oU7VMU2F7PmAuDrbZe1qY5rb gC03vDFOBUvrs30bRt++Lzom04ixFbgQK6uqfEYh7i0ZyWS3u/PEbBU0ZjRb4YbKnjGSEDmFi A6kqMysVzGHvPdDW/koD5TeG/Ms57AkEC5ujcnVDZTtNq/1/5/HEK5GYzMyCf/sIBBaqDifcx sYX7R7rjQwP31oYcf1WgrEYjXKLcynXTzFnoucTCdcV78Mh5phIMZR16NM/VZdOQ9QFC+/Xxo Suf/VRNK1ee4Fspze/XVqcOY7cBHzllAP6SajfuDqpMfTnwVi0DelnfOs4NOZPOwcS/XJwg81 rygIKruFC5te4fmv74z0jiHUDasAcJDiz928MHwn3FPNSfkXR0Wpcbfbw6VZqMvWGABf4TB06 qcagDoUbSudWkJyzSqwQ6m9k1wQd2nYkKvq4FUT2C3isA724jdanLma//7fjQSjZVZaAQeewv 7t6S+mZzKej279pC9/1MGZa/QxuqbaL7JYmct45z4dKOWUb3oKkzr0ts/HSaKz5XvxkwHfrM8 pl/S1Kx2Fr2cdGuxjcxn7rzjeKbxegsy/60JwpPJY86SG4/v2hqcy6r26iTW7xIMecFHqvBU4 njIKlANIvFkzzq69Eitr48A80TpLPacaWFX8s75H1xWF5SqhzjS+8r1iWpcHrvnXyRrNh3eo1 oxTorEyl1EnqmDVyBkPgo3xXuEiErdxmkW0ymVS8c967l0cwXtyzsemoRO//RA6JEFwod/SOH wnp4kSw3MsFt18= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > > Yup. I hope I managed to attach the correct one below. > > Indeed. After managing to install the proper bits of texlive, it looks > OK to me. To me, too. I would not uppercase the X in the "meaning" version though, that may confuse some people. > Are these the keys that's also used on Apple keyboards? For comparison, there is Sacha Chuas beginner's guide: https://sachachua.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/How-to-Learn-Emacs-v2-Large.png It says that Meta can be that special apple key, dunno the name of it. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 22 10:42:00 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2021 14:42:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51429 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT3Rf-0003Tm-P6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 10:41:59 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f51.google.com ([209.85.216.51]:37439) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT3Rd-0003TJ-VJ for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 10:41:58 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f51.google.com with SMTP id me5-20020a17090b17c500b0019af76b7bb4so4636816pjb.2 for <41403@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 07:41:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fuESXMGeutHUOIZloP3/lB1BRkS9uyO4fvw1wojIp8M=; b=Ow+GVVHs9QSdlNrx9mCak6En4O09/VMcS5ou67vBFbCGZ/g1310hTofGwuM7ejEG0d A3jfSjr3SKGLRjSqmubaNnd4uPCkRpvD+MWRJmBkOuTMR0tjyhX3255TF6H0kcRuGQvO A7UJtzym85nTHVEZckp66RYANuq6AFq6mAmyiYUO4rGVK6+Knk/8dI4mUjZm6waKxaKR I5+a+zRcw2ZV2QS0GHCVISO1zxKSLnc7A1XzmtxHlrCo75ifkHveRZTtT/bhksUba8UV mWoCxvc8NVy12ywtZ+43NWn7lWdhSbAoGsRplU9j1i9pjZNI/PzM4xnkHAXhQOSJNNjP UIiw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fuESXMGeutHUOIZloP3/lB1BRkS9uyO4fvw1wojIp8M=; b=ffbHyblp/cMJMgxAidCB4sICLdAwYW+01/4GquitPH1F/W/m7sahi8JTUbci4sFHn4 XRGV9mlLq3mRavyZStXuqA0NnnmtAX1tqXiJThm+BBmYwTrqH4C3O/JdrLsU2vSCb/9/ UaOTB+WNHkO5v9W6Q5Ae7j05vEOxevNVMsiuWcoJOuNc62D1ZhQmV5Q9w0sozuSAy/T5 18/eje/wuIn9Zy96uoDp9Oj554q4EM3yzGNlnvjB+qG9EdNww2Oc1CRrmSILcQObKkkw 9L6Z+5/HwqQA5COvlVs9ZfuULccxkHzPtKJLm5mqCgUKlWjysvNdkCKTh/Gwp8k0XvIs xeoQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5332dPD83S1mVA4ACvNNelnSu0aWxN+z1d7GFNi77PCLViceuXWy dXwaF+LCzR4Hk5pJzb0wNAZK0ifbtJTN06np1gM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy8dv4s9fhJoX/2amcurO5lROPqVYmSfP6bYktyz2mlzLoezCh09FBs0egrsFtYxQpJs6nmLQXNidM/Nt9INoo= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:460a:: with SMTP id w10mr11623297pjg.132.1632321712088; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 07:41:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee9hy9ce.fsf@gnus.org> <87h7edwm3r.fsf@gnus.org> In-Reply-To: <87h7edwm3r.fsf@gnus.org> From: Stefan Kangas Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:41:40 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > Stefan Kangas writes: > > > Yup. I hope I managed to attach the correct one below. > > Indeed. After managing to install the proper bits of texlive, it looks > OK to me. Are these the keys that's also used on Apple keyboards? Control and shift matches exactly. On my machine, the default key for meta is the "alt" key (=E2=8C=A5), so I guess that matches as well: the te= xt "alt" matches what is written on the keyboard. (Many users move meta to the "cmd" key (=E2=8C=98), because it is much more ergonomic on an Apple keyboard. I have no idea why this isn't the default.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 22 11:57:21 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2021 15:57:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51486 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT4cb-0006k6-5c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 11:57:21 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]:52973) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT4cY-0006jw-On for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 11:57:19 -0400 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HF2x90t3qz1sDRD; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:57:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.70]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4HF2x85KMQz1qqkC; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:57:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.70]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pWw_by3WZiE5; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:57:15 +0200 (CEST) X-Auth-Info: xkh36sZqeh9WXGecW4FNVc52wEr6rP9wa9WZnAj9hFq8ZPu6N9jdyLhs+k2swFW/ Received: from igel.home (ppp-46-244-176-100.dynamic.mnet-online.de [46.244.176.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:57:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 595672C25A2; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:57:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee9hy9ce.fsf@gnus.org> <87h7edwm3r.fsf@gnus.org> X-Yow: HOW could a GLASS be YELLING?? Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:57:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:41:40 +0200") Message-ID: <87tuicwqlg.fsf@igel.home> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Lars Ingebrigtsen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) On Sep 22 2021, Stefan Kangas wrote: > (Many users move meta to the "cmd" key (⌘), because it is much more > ergonomic on an Apple keyboard. I have no idea why this isn't the > default.) I guess you have to ask Apple why they swapped the Alt and Cmd keys on their keyboards. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510 2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 22 14:01:28 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2021 18:01:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51629 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT6Yi-0002f3-JN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:01:28 -0400 Received: from smtp-out1.suse.de ([195.135.220.28]:48456) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT6Yd-0002ek-MN for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:01:27 -0400 Received: from imap2.suse-dmz.suse.de (imap2.suse-dmz.suse.de [192.168.254.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-521) server-digest SHA512) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-out1.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96AFF222F4; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:01:17 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=suse.de; s=susede2_rsa; t=1632333677; h=from:from:reply-to:date:date:message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc: mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=gpw0H9LX+mI3hyBwwHVo8q7NgpJHFxAWNYHiSLovq10=; b=t4qjqFM0fdo3tewOw+yEz3PzZgX/3v5p0JH8G44xHfig1BL3x115s/FAXLsVGzDj+S/tac j3bWoXoBUsXYJG8fMwFDvdP5CL17QOqoC4FqxQcKWjvbVODYIv6G9SSABvZpxsUZnL31lR 3/gGgYkC+IeX+wHCh/E+jynZ1w3Tb9I= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=suse.de; s=susede2_ed25519; t=1632333677; h=from:from:reply-to:date:date:message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc: mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=gpw0H9LX+mI3hyBwwHVo8q7NgpJHFxAWNYHiSLovq10=; b=Njdr4Ii1QEL9LednQAA8j9/BRgYquFh/0z56Yskm2DfRR2qA347W3OsUqjTz+zeKavY6+F NvkXCaNb6ArbGfDw== Received: from imap2.suse-dmz.suse.de (imap2.suse-dmz.suse.de [192.168.254.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-521) server-digest SHA512) (No client certificate requested) by imap2.suse-dmz.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4636D13D8C; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:01:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from dovecot-director2.suse.de ([192.168.254.65]) by imap2.suse-dmz.suse.de with ESMTPSA id C8MWD21vS2FzUAAAMHmgww (envelope-from ); Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:01:17 +0000 From: Andreas Schwab To: Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs References: X-Yow: If I felt any more SOPHISTICATED I would DIE of EMBARRASSMENT! Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:01:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: ("Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd=22's?= message of "Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:48:14 +0200") Message-ID: <87pmt0wkur.fsf@igel.home> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Lars Ingebrigtsen , Andrew Goh , Stefan Kangas , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On Sep 22 2021, Mattias Engdegård wrote: > I don't think they ever did. The left Command has always been to the right of the left Option (later also labelled alt). That's exctly the problem. What Apple calls the Option key, is the Alt key on ordinary keyboards. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 22 14:48:07 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2021 18:48:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51689 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT7Hq-00040S-W2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:48:07 -0400 Received: from mail238c50.megamailservers.eu ([91.136.10.248]:33728 helo=mail56c50.megamailservers.eu) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT7Hl-0003zw-Kq for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:48:05 -0400 X-Authenticated-User: mattiase@bredband.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=megamailservers.eu; s=maildub; t=1632336479; bh=7NPF/ZktFtIOlUGsINSXWdnhEMEVD5owaQKYZnV2JTc=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=nAgwYDqNXfmy0pCnDz84n0/DlE8Wm1Q42yoYN0PXVLgEANmO+Vy3Dk6O9wFes4OcD W5A9ngB1PGoXLeRb6B0Yew0KTM0Q0twOTBBsQ6fvG6R7KfUKG3YPvYRWAPBq0iV/0H HoUM8cnz6pCyn634PD8tRz4zUeds37L+K+QA6SRM= Feedback-ID: mattiase@acm.or Received: from stanniol.lan (c-b952e353.032-75-73746f71.bbcust.telenor.se [83.227.82.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail56c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id 18MIluCa012881; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:47:58 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= In-Reply-To: <87pmt0wkur.fsf@igel.home> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:47:56 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <87pmt0wkur.fsf@igel.home> To: Andreas Schwab X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A742F18.614B7A5F.0018, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CSC: 0 X-CHA: v=2.4 cv=HZd38gI8 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=614b7a5f a=von4qPfY+hyqc0zmWf0tYQ==:117 a=von4qPfY+hyqc0zmWf0tYQ==:17 a=h6sSDvFV864kqH3m:21 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=M51BFTxLslgA:10 a=KvEqwxm_tu6kCDSuSR4A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=MsGGBZUjQz0tJghedtA6:22 X-Origin-Country: SE X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: 22 sep. 2021 kl. 20.01 skrev Andreas Schwab : > That's exctly the problem. What Apple calls the Option key, is the Alt > key on ordinary keyboards. But they never switched the keys that you claimed they did. Apple have their own keyboard design tradition and while they later reconciled their layout with that from IBM, they didn't somehow take IBM [...] Content analysis details: (1.4 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record 1.0 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail) 0.4 KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS Relay HELO differs from its IP's reverse DNS X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Lars Ingebrigtsen , Andrew Goh , Stefan Kangas , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) 22 sep. 2021 kl. 20.01 skrev Andreas Schwab : > That's exctly the problem. What Apple calls the Option key, is the = Alt > key on ordinary keyboards. But they never switched the keys that you claimed they did. Apple have their own keyboard design tradition and while they later = reconciled their layout with that from IBM, they didn't somehow take = IBM's keyboard and make arbitrary changes for nefarious reasons. There isn't necessarily a bijection between Mac and PC keys. Option = mostly corresponds to today's AltGr (for input of more characters) but = is also used to modify function keys and mouse clicks. Command was = originally designed as a more principled variant of the conventional = Control key (ie, for function keystrokes), but better located and = without the historical TTY control code baggage. Later on Control was = added to Mac keyboards as well for use in terminal emulators and the = like, and is today just another modifier. =46rom your point of view you may wish that company this-and-that would = have made different decisions and so do I (most definitely), but history = is what it is. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 22 16:00:38 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2021 20:00:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51768 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT8Q2-0006go-D1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:00:38 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:33418) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT8Q1-0006ao-CW for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:00:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=FN/uEPoVc72QLuy3XMnYGYKoKrzNLNRoYFVjE5yM9FU=; b=B9r+Bc9rA4kr2FJCBbJnWbVtWl 32tXJnjLV6pKFyNrcClrbvz47YBmfE0BUjbmAp0vrgY4SXo27EbemPfawCtDqKHHD+bk1jLqvIK7J 7Ocf2FuLWeJCr6yfdnsChVlSI2gbXzsMxrvYcqM3/nc+2kKampLR/M9ENlRA2xZdoOeE=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mT8Po-0006lW-Mh; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:00:30 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee9hy9ce.fsf@gnus.org> <87h7edwm3r.fsf@gnus.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEXYyLjFtaWTfm5W PzH////FdCktAAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+UJFhMoAl8MmAwAAAGtSURBVDjLZZPrlcQg CIXBbQBIAxEbmIH+e1tATdyzzh9PvuHyuAiAw/cxzjPMVBUQtb75WEB0aALAuIyRQBeIIwFIxCYw owQp1ANA0w3cgFnnKXCkJx4HUH8JvhF4Aj+kQMYBPgdomffRagdQH/+0CvgJ7hMsJUv+na0XsCzL RFmeJJwAo2/veeG/AIZGywVyxBBafYJrTAB8RUg0FqKwyrLSrFZzFjwjcIMaZ5dQmhEwCqBalaUv kLSixcDZ0fUA0cq4G8cGOHnXdHgB8U6IQmg9pPoDWlqHlQb/gExegLXN5Pz2UXce1wliJA4sd5o5 sqotdcUQiZCqiOsALf3hAChGbQGaI3HrBT4RXmTPKrxmitxQlh9VucfoQHpsjL8gXfBvtkfprr3l zrVF6YB9HBEFmFDjTYQlJgtUbgMVane8kHhIJ8idu7GMJ1kNtr229yz+8WODGZBLsqTSaNdMX3NI pyeoNiAeMyCtmLlwtbnsn9jE5fQ0pyXozQmZNqi/1BPsP4bMCE/IeptGI8EjBRg7oDGFL/mXY1Hw AGHM8M4BTq0AaUDmZsjfA34BSGFuZ4hpGIkAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMDktMjJU MTk6NDA6MDIrMDA6MDCrt6N+AAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTA5LTIyVDE5OjQwOjAy KzAwOjAw2uobwgAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Davitt Sigerson's _Davitt Sigerson_: "Mood Piece" Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:00:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:41:40 +0200") Message-ID: <878rzov0rs.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: > Control and shift matches exactly. On my machine, the default key for > meta is the "alt" key (⌥), so I guess that matches as well: the text > "alt" matches what is written on the keyboard. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas writes: > Control and shift matches exactly. On my machine, the default key for > meta is the "alt" key (=E2=8C=A5), so I guess that matches as well: the = text > "alt" matches what is written on the keyboard. Then I think your patch makes complete sense, so please go ahead and push. --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 22 17:25:07 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2021 21:25:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51918 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT9jn-0006Zb-54 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:25:07 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39020) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT9jj-0006Yw-Hg for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:25:05 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:51860) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mT9jd-0002QQ-Ns; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:24:57 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mT9jd-0001Gt-Cw; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:24:57 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Michael Heerdegen In-Reply-To: <87k0j9jvu6.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Wed, 22 Sep 2021 02:30:09 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee9hy9ce.fsf@gnus.org> <87h7edwm3r.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0j9jvu6.fsf@web.de> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:24:57 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: larsi@gnus.org, andrewgoh95@yahoo.com.sg, stefankangas@gmail.com, 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] The ref card needs to fit in a fixed amount of space and should not be too cluttered. Could someone verify that? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 22 17:35:08 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2021 21:35:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51951 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT9tU-0000bo-6l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:35:08 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:34536) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT9tS-0000bB-E3 for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:35:06 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=5F9LeERf51+27Mnvaf/YNFkbD4i5kAzJZvAkJ3EJk7k=; b=I+tZgfxFI0OB8MzirH6G5XgFkd 9JI+5vHNxPoZAdJ0TB0IOlxaX80AqZsX3VgbRqvewwySerrgNgek8Nn0Pbp+tGOaZb9GXe5mO+c/m X3vAaCbC+owL0sp9ArIMsRO7GHpdoP2Z78O6Q5fb8jFhimxjZP8zxVlptFueIHYbvMbs=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mT9tF-0007Xg-Lu; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:34:57 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee9hy9ce.fsf@gnus.org> <87h7edwm3r.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0j9jvu6.fsf@web.de> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAJFBMVEX+/v62yvlrlPJU g/SJqfEgXvQZWfQzbPVGefTH1vns8fv///9JaSCRAAAAAWJLR0QLH9fEwAAAAAd0SU1FB+UJFhUi Jp1t6OUAAABdSURBVDjLY2AYBaNgFAwSwKhsDAEmaBKioaFpoWFpQKCAKmFqbtRsVNFhbGEeiSah 4aJiVOLipOSRiSrhVt7eXl5e0V7ejiaxODUNAtJL0GyfKAgBUisHJFS4EEwAT4kW+epMdwoAAAAl dEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMDktMjJUMjE6MzQ6MzgrMDA6MDCH+ricAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRl Om1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTA5LTIyVDIxOjM0OjM4KzAwOjAw9qcAIAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Pet Shop Boys's _I don't wanna_: "I Don't Wanna (Mano Le Tough Remix)" Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:34:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:24:57 -0400") Message-ID: <87tuicqooz.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Richard Stallman writes: > The ref card needs to fit in a fixed amount of space > and should not be too cluttered. Could someone verify that? The change removes as much as it adds, so it's fine. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , andrewgoh95@yahoo.com.sg, stefankangas@gmail.com, 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Richard Stallman writes: > The ref card needs to fit in a fixed amount of space > and should not be too cluttered. Could someone verify that? The change removes as much as it adds, so it's fine. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 22 17:42:38 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2021 21:42:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51980 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mTA0k-0000pf-DS for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:42:38 -0400 Received: from outbound.soverin.net ([116.202.126.228]:47395) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mTA0h-0000pO-RN for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:42:37 -0400 Received: from smtp.soverin.net (unknown [10.10.3.24]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by outbound.soverin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47D7E187; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 21:42:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.soverin.net (smtp.soverin.net [159.69.232.138]) by soverin.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=idiocy.org; s=soverin; t=1632346948; bh=8t24Xex8kDNjHLZdcYvTtRLZCJmGWl0YsoE10GjavMk=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=KI6g2NI/D6oTL/M75LzvPurTPLsscb7nb6TNYFSxBB5s6V2frbAbDPMKDfCqr1rfk ij2gMOzNGiqGpi+7Gcg78Obv0TD8JZ0bGuN1EWikGRlsSO93E8dtIpqne0NZWakvtt T1A7H8RpvvWsQhwi/7/E9sk8U8DfK5gPe/0OForqWNWJk1CWMEoA7EL5i0H7X4DB5O 28E4kdnwKUo2Y+D4shXGniYUmvHhNEkSjOdnsVukmFdF7j3DumFP1Lks8kdRLTzOKI h2vxDGmyfcZCnsfdp47u5GWLrA3YlAr1D9EWrUB4vEge6WWmChmzvJdx72zIQUzTx7 T4mwPeTEZ9dGQ== Received: from alan by faroe.holly.idiocy.org with local (Exim 4.95-RC2) (envelope-from ) id 1mTA0W-00057q-CN; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:42:24 +0100 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:42:24 +0100 From: Alan Third To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Alan Third , Stefan Kangas , Lars Ingebrigtsen , Michael Heerdegen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org References: <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee9hy9ce.fsf@gnus.org> <87h7edwm3r.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Lars Ingebrigtsen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 04:41:40PM +0200, Stefan Kangas wrote: > (Many users move meta to the "cmd" key (⌘), because it is much more > ergonomic on an Apple keyboard. I have no idea why this isn't the > default.) Because we define NEXTstep shortcuts which are all on the command key, so if we used it for meta as well they would get in each others way quite quickly. Plus the Mac's "option" is actually the same key as an IBM keyboard's "alt", so when you plug in a PC keyboard alt and super do exactly what you'd expect. In fact Apple keyboards even have "alt" written on the option key. And I think saying it's "much more ergonomic" is overstating the case a little. The keys are right next to each other. -- Alan Third From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 22 18:28:33 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2021 22:28:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52072 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mTAjB-0000Fv-HT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:28:33 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f178.google.com ([209.85.214.178]:42964) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mTAj8-0000Fe-OU for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:28:32 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f178.google.com with SMTP id l6so2722402plh.9 for <41403@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:28:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wXqrzr23u3J/MTzhQoQ3bi6QBIBoXAkktPKfuBDc4nM=; b=lI7qEr9xrAtBWw8ZDHxkNZcUD7m8wv4XK6ka7SnqEO1U+T/2vztF4kg7N6kvDIO7m1 8wQPRS1STHqx7Ua9MZqmQEsUlUMHZfewkaN+PChW/l8UkwR1V57CCZhPWb77wxNV+NSL BwZaPNnH8XXyFXeYd4urB4vbkJymEqTpc0+xn6Aer8Pd5Cn2Ms/pDagwdL3/wnFec1aQ ZzbbfNrDRBG+ep/Z9A46ldE8Kgs9WXlDlE+eQLm+0glSlYFoxzbSlkU0Xt1esahuycH9 4XMxtS5VL5DH55bpA0TshKT+5KK/dr5EdulQF/l2z+frWPTgqeCtq8qR3i/sE/XuucJn GyPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wXqrzr23u3J/MTzhQoQ3bi6QBIBoXAkktPKfuBDc4nM=; b=w1DHS5QuGO+02Qn7qT3+eHIOqVipDVJWxoBaQX7sB2RrsLy+G7SWnljRitprCqODkw erxLxC3F6zVZ41XCy038ePnsK9/As/HUVaPFWkG43zLOcSOpUoLzCkCPupM3EmMJlmha jGwBEZVF3oO/uYIcEJXeKhaEhjkcyYGn6wUcJxiXhYXYYeVrS1w9hrCchsCRldJClnr9 IacNw5pUgUziG+M+sZYqK34ArtaC1h9QslMDpjtHOKFfZZweimGixSVtcLIErPwn3Alz dd73yyDmuGSlDrCy+y1l8pdTzVHRF2pSwHHQq6of6m6AEw3JCvbXPzPptgz/DxFW1peO Q6Lw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531SEAMf31GjGD7D+ObFZlV9DFhoQ7AEIEaBdG/00llhtxdy+NVR N2HdW0cMUe0WAoWWSw4Rn3KPOzhZ6hqqvpdQuHY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyrOWJUVVx37YJ8qEsO68pnGgmJErPDPcp4g7Ycg3q+njGRW+/1jWAUoviNnGKs/YxwtUqjFnrDXBSc/WW99hk= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:460a:: with SMTP id w10mr13840986pjg.132.1632349704904; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:28:24 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee9hy9ce.fsf@gnus.org> <87h7edwm3r.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:28:24 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs To: Alan Third Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Lars Ingebrigtsen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Alan Third writes: > And I think saying it's "much more ergonomic" is overstating the case > a little. The keys are right next to each other. Perhaps. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm more sensitive to such issues than the average user. On the other hand, I also wouldn't be surprised if a not insignificant fraction of our users find themselves in the same situation as me. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 22 18:28:45 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2021 22:28:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52078 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mTAjM-0000GW-Tv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:28:45 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f175.google.com ([209.85.215.175]:41625) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mTAjK-0000G5-7J for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:28:43 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f175.google.com with SMTP id k24so4294603pgh.8 for <41403@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:28:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lcB1x2CbHGHeoprsLyqLlnXuNcw7T7psru3yxndDvKk=; b=Vf2wZ+C0BrDafnW+UC1oJN8Wf0MnEsmN//kd6ZcPWWsyANbTH58YCAKMfhI8l5aE7c v/urqvJqCUtmWMQUc6k10Ok2sSyBWaK/19cZjbZfkYQcEaqWTsPtW+9vghEF8uK5T7Fl 3aoMFAs8e79uOCQS2LwBYr3M9YvMiC5vRszCLfDAkcg3ZG8TG+EIOQ7jhQv3tOp5bW/X dc7vQwzJwY+p76fF4ZI7UZLcttXQuwaSm8TGyORdEpp9NGiZKhji3Yx91ybI0XS+YMHS FDxO7dBuRr9n7FkhgeY44JUajJ2yOw28KmXimo7iFAaWlfbGVuyiXEquY/NVnthkvuiL MBpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lcB1x2CbHGHeoprsLyqLlnXuNcw7T7psru3yxndDvKk=; b=prqwDL1ygu0P9N6/vjwCMeaJ07wjuvxg/OAamTe0nUbe7Q5OvjBS82P1y32rcXwNdj azWenolNigmgYDl3bH+XuFldLJ7zglmAmyJO8M67y3RsRGFs76QdEAgY39g7791IZYWg 0iZOYv8NuaN0i9tLyGb4VI+OKMUz/ojka2pq7CJJR+MUYShPtRMrXhTSN9tHcFN5hRx+ ys5cwPeK7d5ABc/MpuP8lRA59/+dU/URCm9vpDqxBodYMfsbNuOwj8MYPncW1ugH7oRw GW+xHY7FsTGy9/5wskxcRbUumg7OhPIJ6XtYAp4VD+nXThUyYDqf+2+mKICuGCSF2IXb 0a4A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532NoFV0Vmj/dQAPgRqyzkeIkNlytZ+402luIeUfGQICsmbDRh+H etUvM/aVpQbuwBvDo9yQ7FBrFZOy1c6KI/REhIA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzS5ypznhQJGS5+JdVLJizk+NxbVJqpVIcINWHjqQZRnqKRIPdxLvo1rY1+VlzXs1UUPtbgeonJSz6S5D1mVPg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:1586:b0:447:b30c:4a65 with SMTP id u6-20020a056a00158600b00447b30c4a65mr1118987pfk.0.1632349716551; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:28:36 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <878rzov0rs.fsf@gnus.org> References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee9hy9ce.fsf@gnus.org> <87h7edwm3r.fsf@gnus.org> <878rzov0rs.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:28:36 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Andrew Goh , 41403@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 41403 + fixed close 41403 28.1 thanks Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > Stefan Kangas writes: > >> Control and shift matches exactly. On my machine, the default key for >> meta is the "alt" key (=E2=8C=A5), so I guess that matches as well: the= text >> "alt" matches what is written on the keyboard. > > Then I think your patch makes complete sense, so please go ahead and push= . Thanks, pushed to master as commit bf0c072913. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Sep 23 02:24:47 2021 Received: (at 41403) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2021 06:24:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52490 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mTIA3-0007LO-1D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 02:24:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49810) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mTIA1-0007LA-FF for 41403@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 02:24:46 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:34586) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mTI9u-0004jM-SA; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 02:24:38 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1507 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mTI9n-0000Vk-6w; Thu, 23 Sep 2021 02:24:31 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:24:31 +0300 Message-Id: <83tuibvmg0.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Lars Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: <87tuicqooz.fsf@gnus.org> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:34:52 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs References: <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1572340523.1158427.1589893725280@mail.yahoo.com> <87lflny20s.fsf@web.de> <87zgsbtaqr.fsf@gnus.org> <8735q2t3d9.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee9hy9ce.fsf@gnus.org> <87h7edwm3r.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0j9jvu6.fsf@web.de> <87tuicqooz.fsf@gnus.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41403 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, 41403@debbugs.gnu.org, andrewgoh95@yahoo.com.sg, rms@gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen > Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:34:52 +0200 > Cc: Michael Heerdegen , andrewgoh95@yahoo.com.sg, > stefankangas@gmail.com, 41403@debbugs.gnu.org > > Richard Stallman writes: > > > The ref card needs to fit in a fixed amount of space > > and should not be too cluttered. Could someone verify that? > > The change removes as much as it adds, so it's fine. No, it adds more than it removes: etc/refcards/refcard.tex | 6 ++++-- 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-) However, I've generated the PDF file, and it still takes just 2 pages, so this is okay. From unknown Sat Jun 14 19:13:48 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 11:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator