From unknown Tue Jun 17 20:13:37 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#41129 <41129@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#41129 <41129@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree Reply-To: bug#41129 <41129@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 03:13:37 +0000 retitle 41129 outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree reassign 41129 emacs submitter 41129 Stefan Kangas severity 41129 wishlist thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 07 16:49:51 2020 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2020 20:49:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44043 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWnSp-0005Om-4m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 16:49:51 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:40288) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWnSn-0005Of-Kn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 16:49:49 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49702) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWnSn-0005c7-AJ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 16:49:49 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-xb29.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b29]:37185) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWnSm-0000kT-Ac for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 16:49:48 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-xb29.google.com with SMTP id f5so3654886ybo.4 for ; Thu, 07 May 2020 13:49:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=SKyw37WLSGnT13l8fW9zvqYtJ/VU4qD3zNe6TpZT0wY=; b=V4SuQmt/TrSwgCTmYhVm07kzGQ4/PAARDT2yw+a48erjjA7S00JGGdiEttOwX+Z+ew MmH240eFk2YGQI4rUkYLjKXCLWQ+hgRuWDvyg+teFKoVp7qUbAvQTVpsN/7Dym+y2Bfi qp1YKhS3TL3w6d8ZaCqwuTq311ieqvNrm00cPPVf/2euFz4ZDzfFLDDBz4bk/pQFbJ7H xkjz+LVZxmJzXCP26iW7dosk3P+IdLncF450a7oaxS3Tbao/zK6TSJ8Vntbs/pk6CYSO FV1a+gl1AWvj1kIPGy7Y6GwBHoKdy6gToFfDCWgkrxbLk5wumXOp14sdnjprKxjxsCq2 QY+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=SKyw37WLSGnT13l8fW9zvqYtJ/VU4qD3zNe6TpZT0wY=; b=Ryyx7Zgh7fkewHch/XKI8mlE9JhsstktwDbkLSsxGxO0eoyUWLP5YIKvAg7fJczcVd fXfhTw03THvUa/Q8mOI9eehqZLIyA9gGh6uj3sh8sVn+f26yvVourmIToD5iadt8VANN 5DUe3wuRLz1GkJEis2S+WScet9i4kOom9YAia3G8sel4CLYENV294sGR25z/aI71AUWB 9XGJK4onT65zvRR/dQ61uOFAF2V8xJKhct0mpEiWb12kK1wXV9Fy1wHdN518DUgLaj5/ XB3yEIpimOFH/WQB4BfbltcuWeorzDSKWTFoB6XL8xhMB4AcNw4Fhz8VrU2zLpI0snlk 6zaw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYby81s4saWRLP6Bnwd9DWAJylW5peesUgIMp8jDCn/jofKeHGI unRG9IPU7Xo7T2zt4unYK/N3KXhaQgTtY5XrBbrMSQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJXb0jjZbYKweJk/rMb69U8XVL7ojC1O088Ibt0vBJxRBDF6QGF2qedJJ6sqWdsL73zr70NogPHkGK5Qf3kJ1w= X-Received: by 2002:a25:5c4:: with SMTP id 187mr26574960ybf.181.1588884587028; Thu, 07 May 2020 13:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 7 May 2020 16:49:46 -0400 From: Stefan Kangas MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 16:49:46 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b29; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb29.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Severity: wishlist Please consider adding the following keybindings to outline-mode: (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-demote) (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-promote) (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-move-subtree-up) (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-move-subtree-down) They are already there in Org-mode and many users swear by them. Background: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-04/msg01887.html These keybindings were first suggested by Howard Melman in the above thread. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 13:56:23 2020 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2020 17:56:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46268 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jX7EV-00006F-EZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 13:56:23 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-f173.google.com ([209.85.219.173]:38655) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jX7EU-000062-GU for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 13:56:22 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f173.google.com with SMTP id w19so1361481ybs.5 for <41129@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 08 May 2020 10:56:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=coYPK7XXMRaYK6mTDTKkIfutxpNVIzzHP5F6Ais5njM=; b=NikNdWuimzlUMAIRE59fCpJ8v8FFwjxdfjC+hrOfxUTOX6q5zTA1hu7x5dwoKRZIyj S/RQJYp4AcnZO5f8zzWt4buHynVtyDePgtm+IgK9+dsHtQXi7ACD4eGzR+3yxp0o8rrJ h0RjeXUxnPCFnIztrIDGindsJ4HpNiPGQydz623GpwXvn6D5rMBPOAAG34CRHhYAI36u ZmSBLKW+lXCO6Deq4us9NSA7JbW2BqlJqXZYMHax7Gh9KYksOGOR1dGU43dC86wGfEYv 1NcxDw2vU2/N9Jr+VsIJ3S3yeUmb3W0wsOJ7nPtPFGomEo5fRBXq30RAVLsHJNc+3sqo Xkpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZhTR/7zFNHHpIWs3i8dvoi3eJrPBINAsey3A3vx/6glAhC6nYV WlNuXlfp8RXKveWyS3Arg8QeWnTIWm51VVBLJQmO5w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJCFBJ22gMAqiMEg7X+xK04spHkPDmgreIpGZLeN0GCiR2Enc5IJqL92mbKoI81VKDr5HZfYuuASy+iGn/RynY= X-Received: by 2002:a25:c402:: with SMTP id u2mr6431541ybf.231.1588960576853; Fri, 08 May 2020 10:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 8 May 2020 13:56:16 -0400 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Thu, 7 May 2020 16:49:46 -0400") References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:56:16 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree To: 41129@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) > (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-demote) > (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-promote) Sorry, that should be the other way around: (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-promote) (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-demote) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 28 01:28:37 2021 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jan 2021 06:28:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46849 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l50nF-0000Ln-DL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 01:28:37 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:58634) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l50nD-0000LX-Us for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 01:28:36 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Ezs8ngSPsiOyKKoYTZn6aUsMGkFnFR8bTbLB05NV6Mw=; b=Ay80xgZkbS7bf7VhNgAJwxWJ+K z+64H91o9+SabWfP/haP4z8wENH/ONjJAac3ZDszon8DhbroIQOSX0QklIyH2YgnwE2lKrIX3iOon z2/o9MWel4ElYpGKRAz8rwg/9oUpJTU1viQAPN/CTxwtGeVFqaM7r62E8smjD/rD6Ykw=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l50n4-00055X-J5; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 07:28:29 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree References: X-Now-Playing: A Certain Ratio's _acr:box (1)_: "Knife Slits Water (12 Inch Version)" Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 07:28:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Fri, 8 May 2020 13:56:16 -0400") Message-ID: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: >> (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-demote) >> (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-promote) > > Sorry, that should be the other way around: > > (d [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: 41129@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas writes: >> (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-demote) >> (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-promote) > > Sorry, that should be the other way around: > > (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-promote) > (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-demote) `M-' (etc) are already bound to cursor movement commands by default, so this would shadow these bindings in outline-minor-mode? I think that would be inconvenient for many people. I'm not sure M- (etc) are obvious bindings for outline handling even if that weren't the case. Anybody got any opinions here? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 28 01:28:43 2021 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jan 2021 06:28:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46852 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l50nK-0000M6-Ls for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 01:28:42 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:58648) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l50nJ-0000Lg-48 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 01:28:41 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=DCGuE8IJLngKNQA+JCMQ8owN8Ph52KUcQUM+QMN8HM8=; b=QZHPgZpuGIq40XmBRm88Kr2nua vsTg8qHNrtIzsfdKykrIsQBwbThPKR6emGWpNY+AW7uBVIPVF/wdtuOdYMMVKpsMtvlfT8GiPYi7o dLqA5sYD25fIux83hEbw5+ESVc0vbxCvUYD0Iwh3v97ClF5nK7T8ieSBkRcFq5tY9ehM=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l50nB-00055e-KR for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 07:28:35 +0100 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 07:28:32 +0100 Message-Id: <87im7h378v.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #41129 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 41129 + moreinfo quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 41129 + moreinfo quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 28 04:39:17 2021 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jan 2021 09:39:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47264 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l53ll-0005Fx-N8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 04:39:17 -0500 Received: from mail-pf1-f180.google.com ([209.85.210.180]:33541) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l53lj-0005Fl-R1 for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 04:39:16 -0500 Received: by mail-pf1-f180.google.com with SMTP id o20so3650560pfu.0 for <41129@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 01:39:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=codeisgreat-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mbmFkjHgxJhxZQDZFoO+5Syphn7GdM6oHiG0iZXxPrI=; b=dWuN4JjQTrSnjIvKWtv05afgevG6fCTCcBqh93sHw8pfE35sD7/pKfFpOv/77xxpPs Yj8yCLfxvGJz4zT4punMjR2NjYL/bf4+y3DYdd9DZjVpjQFkXi5bwjGE0+7UTDc5utS2 32ek+4PkvUpO5yZ/XCaK4blOszyalYPlEKsp8YffEpRMHWQUX6WufDk1CQwq/3v4Xsng ONdZ+KCKCnuQmhjEJY5ozwNFWEkkjyQ7ZyYANbDHQoGqL2bQuE/K7tf/pW4sC+ps83J7 Fi1CXZhoufKLu9xEKMHBLjmlJWMFNxmlgpaOn8Ho2VgRj39fAnIqUY7dsPMtAj9sC7mn /s8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mbmFkjHgxJhxZQDZFoO+5Syphn7GdM6oHiG0iZXxPrI=; b=Swx6Mmibbd2T4aW9JgjV08kFF3cvdI51Fm52CAMN5MYoqISQDzUUog8pHGI5RwEArz ZCJMXP500UBQ9nOQY9ZmQ/lS1B6orzhmpUDNBV3pKuAuwlKiSRrIgaXJPlOlnx+J0x7S VD/2xChqxX1kbe/beTArarf3Ypz0oIl7Zr8uBC8RMdnurI2sr9T6UDGVu0k6yLILRqW5 3kQ/3zLYSxsCBedyN9MpsOsLCyynWFhSshGwk1FkZn66NdyxefCw3Tc/DtskaYHbSgD5 fdw/5qrA0LaruV2WaJ8vUYaZApLUx+O3bnQPrV8dQOZu75dP0ySpHjxfxmvmxgn2EUVK RLIg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532nd0ak6eTsvCf0sllUgSClw3zM/bAQFBbN3RA0lXoTL6M09KYO Jgw3dIgT436bdqIMwLEOGnsTGdVDrSsFGQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxVtTUl05VGATlTRs+dL0Q6Wjk7BERL2/pxbzToX9yJuV4sEyjO30uOSszyK/8Z6UOsD8kgag== X-Received: by 2002:a62:3386:0:b029:1ae:8580:99da with SMTP id z128-20020a6233860000b02901ae858099damr14857157pfz.61.1611826749621; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 01:39:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mb2.local ([2405:201:5c06:700a:e5ec:38e8:c4a:b899]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id br6sm4410569pjb.42.2021.01.28.01.39.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 28 Jan 2021 01:39:09 -0800 (PST) From: Pankaj Jangid To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 15:09:05 +0530 In-Reply-To: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Thu, 28 Jan 2021 07:28:25 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: Stefan Kangas , 41129@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: >>> (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-demote) >>> (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-promote) >> >> Sorry, that should be the other way around: >> >> (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-promote) >> (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-demote) > > `M-' (etc) are already bound to cursor movement commands by > default, so this would shadow these bindings in outline-minor-mode? I > think that would be inconvenient for many people. > > I'm not sure M- (etc) are obvious bindings for outline handling > even if that weren't the case. Anybody got any opinions here? That is difficult question. Because people coming from org background will find it difficult if =E2=80=98M-=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98M-= =E2=80=99 don=E2=80=99t work as expected by them. But then how many people will use both, org and the outline-mode. Irrespective of the above issue, in my opinion, there should be a standardized way of doing similar things in Emacs. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 28 10:07:39 2021 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jan 2021 15:07:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49360 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l58tW-0001Oq-Sf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 10:07:39 -0500 Received: from mail-pg1-f179.google.com ([209.85.215.179]:40291) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l58tU-0001Oc-Uu for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 10:07:38 -0500 Received: by mail-pg1-f179.google.com with SMTP id b21so4463668pgk.7 for <41129@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 07:07:36 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xD6rBi6gUrvchNSaeKUFMR6NiDeUGnYElyoWm8QRPJM=; b=TJpzF61gPO/MNZHgpb0UNN60Ys3YRb+ng1KqpExy088uoeXUvDShpP8wVxS3d1r2Jx ZhKS0OBx8AetfCfqW7B8uL9elbSUyWkiP7autLx3XYGk3h6qfR5No/XHc8oP81/ZjnJX +a86pBbvMk5Yq27AzWyOz6xKh9rZE4E9xSyXMSIkfiGLb8qLWTE12uA2aYGBnWR0XtIS 0s3V6ZFToT9X3YI4gM+gliEwn4/L/Zp0cWJPFaVxUieT5np1yEWqX9unjOWDq3VxXkcm g7DrxhmmQmwsAcwAuA1jvKP1s4ERrwCF/gh7NSMHNmJaxzAkocK9WaT9OmQC0K+l9scv 7rUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532AswekSjWoqmRCt2N/xSczil8HXNGNCmy63MnC9EMazuCZGOqt hh3gToJDQZakXMN4yXRA79gmXeHdwCPyVUagcG8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwMFtHHckazgmP8CJFIs0ByliSn0+l5YNkxtAjY8EoaYkWATNTMM9hBjiJbZUoYmBm9amCf32sWo2yh2Z/0fcw= X-Received: by 2002:a62:88cf:0:b029:1c0:d4fb:1e62 with SMTP id l198-20020a6288cf0000b02901c0d4fb1e62mr15918711pfd.58.1611846450960; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 07:07:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 09:07:30 -0600 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 09:07:30 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree To: Pankaj Jangid , Lars Ingebrigtsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: 41129@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Pankaj Jangid writes: > Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > >>> (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-promote) >>> (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-demote) >> >> `M-' (etc) are already bound to cursor movement commands by >> default, so this would shadow these bindings in outline-minor-mode? I >> think that would be inconvenient for many people. Yes, it is a real problem. But since this is context dependent, I find that in practice I am rarely surprised by this. YMMV. >> I'm not sure M- (etc) are obvious bindings for outline handling >> even if that weren't the case. Anybody got any opinions here? > > That is difficult question. Because people coming from org background > will find it difficult if =E2=80=98M-=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98M-=E2=80=99 don=E2=80=99t work as > expected by them. Right, this is the reason for suggesting this in the first place. FWIW, I find the org-mode bindings to be okay in the sense that at least they are easy to learn. But I have found myself wanting something a bit more ergonomic at times. > Irrespective of the above issue, in my opinion, there should be a > standardized way of doing similar things in Emacs. Agreed. Perhaps it is possible to find a better alternative. Such an alternative should ideally be suitable for at least all three of outline-mode, org-mode and outline-minor-mode. It might be hard to settle on something that makes everyone happy, however. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 28 23:49:58 2021 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jan 2021 04:49:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50800 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5LjK-0000tY-LQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 23:49:58 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:41330) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5LjH-0000tD-4z for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2021 23:49:57 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=6By3hz6itVs3I/Ig3nJvpM8+pcBW3f46Y5zYXHDb494=; b=H7GKzh0SpxmQ3bLebtx+vjrtM5 6X0FMqpDOgo3hVa03nDd6LYmUs+k7qk5fvPBzOBM60MXM4HqCzbTq4u30wN/gZETsSbgqJdgwuO0m Shw58GBAZ0EwEvBln6h9sTgHCR8OGuwp9WRhq0ceNg3Z9/n1ktPL5FC//5ExuCL+byd0=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l5Lj4-0007iZ-Uo; Fri, 29 Jan 2021 05:49:47 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAIVBMVEX+/fzso5/sXFfq gn7y09DoQz/0MzDbKii2tLPR0M7///9tPEDxAAAAAWJLR0QKaND0VgAAAAd0SU1FB+UBHQQtBtsO 0WUAAAFfSURBVDjLpZO/T4NAFMe/Rw7DbaRRXIlWXB38A86mrWVjEeNmEV5nY1JXBpduF9Oh/Lc+ 2sTI8TZfwsD38+77fhwA/wp1bWW9pMrX9EknSv1kfhLWae2fYHM+sKE3GTxvKwFcZdXt1rdSDCYM qPBAAKwWRJ8Unzr8jQfAKaJjCfe3BL9YzU1NYcxg+vs+Ldk01n0NdBWvtEawrV3n3KB2jp3uvine R5HXVNtFXVbZCPsBmKGDm1PqzGHghAWMcwFZhx08gBzLCsN0jrDvMakx90HAm0BWDLdxnIMvTlNq R1667sELxkUmPVgLIIwZNNaMQO9VUppjFBeWv5LKjoGqEVJ/f6NI7vKMagHop1aVawH0Q5aVBMDr fRdB/CgWR1CoTARnqVEfEkh47qUwIS7j/XH9ArDQhWQ15VleBRA2vEfJSpXNzVYq3s7K5lzQTdtq SHEwrahH/AOIoJN9hPgBy9lLFo5mI2wAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMDEtMjlUMDQ6 NDU6MDYrMDA6MDAwiPsZAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTAxLTI5VDA0OjQ1OjA2KzAw OjAwQdVDpQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: DJ Nigga Fox's _Cranio_: "Karma" Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 05:49:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Thu, 28 Jan 2021 09:07:30 -0600") Message-ID: <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas writes: >> Irrespective of the above issue, in my opinion, there should be a >> standardized way of doing similar things in Emacs. > > Agreed. Perhaps it is possible to find a better alternative. Such an > al [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: Pankaj Jangid , 41129@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas writes: >> Irrespective of the above issue, in my opinion, there should be a >> standardized way of doing similar things in Emacs. > > Agreed. Perhaps it is possible to find a better alternative. Such an > alternative should ideally be suitable for at least all three of > outline-mode, org-mode and outline-minor-mode. > > It might be hard to settle on something that makes everyone happy, > however. Indeed. Major modes (like Org) have greater leeway in defining keystrokes than minor modes, though -- a minor mode has to be more careful not to redefine common keystrokes because there's less of a "buy in" from users than with a major mode like Org. So it might make sense for Org to bind M- to something while it'd be too intrusive for outline-minor-mode. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 29 15:06:22 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jan 2021 20:06:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53011 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5a29-0008U1-Lz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Jan 2021 15:06:22 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:54162) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5a26-0008Tr-6U for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Jan 2021 15:06:19 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48174) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l5a26-0003lM-2k for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Jan 2021 15:06:18 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:54828) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l5a24-00061I-Oi for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Jan 2021 15:06:17 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l5a21-0001P0-Kq for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Jan 2021 21:06:13 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Howard Melman Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 15:06:07 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:1OdLuVL/N/Z5CFSmzknJeaNCaO8= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: 5 X-Spam_score: 0.5 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.248, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > Stefan Kangas writes: > >>> Irrespective of the above issue, in my opinion, there should be a >>> standardized way of doing similar things in Emacs. >> >> Agreed. Perhaps it is possible to find a better alternative. Such an >> alternative should ideally be suitable for at least all three of >> outline-mode, org-mode and outline-minor-mode. >> >> It might be hard to settle on something that makes everyone happy, >> however. > > Indeed. Major modes (like Org) have greater leeway in defining > keystrokes than minor modes, though -- a minor mode has to be more > careful not to redefine common keystrokes because there's less of a "buy > in" from users than with a major mode like Org. > > So it might make sense for Org to bind M- to something while it'd > be too intrusive for outline-minor-mode. If I'm correct that the standard cursor movement bindings on M-, M- you're referring to are word movement commands, then they also have existing bindings on C- and C- and are at least very similar to M-f and M-b.. So perhaps it's ok if outline-minor-mode shadows the M- flavor of them, particularly if it aligns with org-mode. -- Howard From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 29 17:01:24 2021 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jan 2021 22:01:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53102 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5bpS-00051e-Vz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Jan 2021 17:01:24 -0500 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:48170) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5bpP-00051M-ON for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Jan 2021 17:01:22 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 10TLi5Ar042180; Fri, 29 Jan 2021 22:01:10 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; 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Fri, 29 Jan 2021 22:01:07 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Howard Melman , "41129@debbugs.gnu.org" <41129@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree Thread-Index: AQHW9npTSO35WHFG/U+K0/Tfijichao/JPeQ Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 22:01:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-originating-ip: [73.170.83.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: be97f217-848b-4dbe-0bf8-08d8c4a16129 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR10MB2736: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: be97f217-848b-4dbe-0bf8-08d8c4a16129 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Jan 2021 22:01:07.0270 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 4L6GYB9ntgF1m6ZmPc0rI8AX1ChfnEM6fjPTTxgBkfh8PZCDi9nNm4OnBdxxatn88r8+cPbC73EloYJLIT8bJg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB2736 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9879 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2101290106 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9879 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2101290106 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > Indeed. Major modes (like Org) have greater leeway in defining > > keystrokes than minor modes, though -- a minor mode has to be more > > careful not to redefine common keystrokes because there's less of a > > "buy in" from users than with a major mode like Org. > > > > So it might make sense for Org to bind M- > > to something while it'd be too intrusive for > > outline-minor-mode. I agree with Lars, there. A minor mode, even when local to a buffer (not explicitly global), is in a sense "global" - it works across other modes, and needs to play well with them. ___ Not directly related, but I also think it's a no-no for a major mode such as Org to globally bind a key that has no business being used (because useless) outside Org mode. That's the point of bug #46087 (which has received no reply). In the past, Org mode has even countered the key binding guidelines, by binding keys in its major mode map that are supposed to be reserved for minor modes. (I think that after some protest that's now been corrected.) I can understand that Org developers and users would like many keys available by default, but there's also a need to play well with other, non-Org, uses of Emacs. > If I'm correct that the standard cursor movement bindings on > M-, M- you're referring to are word movement > commands, then they also have existing bindings on C- > and C- and are at least very similar to M-f and M-b. Yes. > So perhaps it's ok if outline-minor-mode shadows the > M- flavor of them, particularly if it aligns with > org-mode. Personally, I'd prefer that Emacs not bind `M-left|right' keys by default, including in Outline or Org modes (minor or major). (I bind `M-left|right|up|down' to commands that incrementally move the selected frame.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 30 01:23:23 2021 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2021 06:23:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53367 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5jfG-0003J5-QH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 01:23:23 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:52068) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5jfE-0003Iq-Aw for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 01:23:20 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=YYj/VnQNw6Va5L6sFzk/gC4hId8ESMfG2aaF3SxJpfg=; b=qLZU63hXeSitUl8CJG4SXzBDYz UMwRhv5udOU52BsFK8tfP2H2b6P1UeInz3i7asSMaxUR/imQPbENVxT2P3ldJ66R+aMC0Wvfv2BCM 5alwAih3xwDjOhEa1fjVLJelfumJ5R+uoESH+S+4G6/JMlzFWy298OYk8NioJGf9YT1A=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l5jf3-0004ib-0c; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 07:23:14 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Howard Melman Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEXcu6+qbl9eLioN BAb///8QCg2MAAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+UBHgYFForVFCsAAAGZSURBVDjLhZKLkcMg DESDrwEkGohEA0Hqv7fbBX+Sm3hOmUmIHystax6P/6rM7zqX4o6FoIrIJkc9NDJf56ZNauHjio9o PnfwwNM6iSpg0UMBTeUCoBvJqVi/VYr3cAzln0WKTSOemSRUz5kTlFKSFUK7HAtQjYLSJ3Gt1wwp kGguScdwqTxGvUD0dAKeCCONTqomnnp3f16NjRapcBwyZ6u2+tZakUW4H5Esi5BUKgAMgK62HQyk 0rqpuy9F20Ggq6ZBINKpWGeKlginuM5EgvksTwKAcIx/wxk7ZnMewLMMLDwgagAbAcLacmzhpmYa wleLM3nCi+T4ycDCxJSgrdQycjS2h9z7rqAndp6Je46lKNw1ih0BzJHHDHdkuT+GXfM8XHk5QUQf EyAS95ADwEU06y++A1yYHLISSIV5nUCRUk8c61A4bglBD+bOIM4KQyRwaWziPU9bwVbYPjf7myLp in1Gn4d6rwVgJd9nXMBZ3wAM6neAIM878RecB/wEN8PnPbkD0W9Atjvgn6Dk18Klvlr3T3BTvw+Q kZeiVD5bAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTAxLTMwVDA2OjA1OjIyKzAwOjAwDLrbIwAA ACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMS0wMS0zMFQwNjowNToyMiswMDowMH3nY58AAAAASUVORK5C YII= X-Now-Playing: Simon & Garfunkel's _Live 1969_: "The Sound Of Silence" Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 07:23:07 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Howard Melman's message of "Fri, 29 Jan 2021 15:06:07 -0500") Message-ID: <87k0rv0wqc.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Howard Melman writes: > If I'm correct that the standard cursor movement bindings on > M-, M- you're referring to are word movement > commands, then they also have existing bindings on C- > and C- [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: 41129@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Howard Melman writes: > If I'm correct that the standard cursor movement bindings on > M-, M- you're referring to are word movement > commands, then they also have existing bindings on C- > and C- and are at least very similar to M-f and M-b.. That these commands also have other bindings doesn't really affect how annoying rebinding M- is for the users that are used to M-. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 30 12:40:08 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2021 17:40:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55743 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5uEA-0008Jr-6l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:40:08 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:48864) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5uE7-0008Jj-RK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:40:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44134) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l5uE7-000316-KK for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:40:03 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:42864) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l5uE6-00047x-7F for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:40:03 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l5uE4-0009B6-3D for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 18:40:00 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Howard Melman Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:39:52 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0rv0wqc.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:9BXL2iZjoC0LaavxXG2D7PjHCnc= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: 5 X-Spam_score: 0.5 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > Howard Melman writes: > >> If I'm correct that the standard cursor movement bindings on >> M-, M- you're referring to are word movement >> commands, then they also have existing bindings on C- >> and C- and are at least very similar to M-f and M-b.. > > That these commands also have other bindings doesn't really affect how > annoying rebinding M- is for the users that are used to M-. So I'm clear, the command right-word, which is only useful when editing bidirectional (not merely right-to-left) text , and even then only changes the orientation of the very basic command forward-word (still bound to M-f), is so important it needs TWO very similar default key bindings (M-right and C-right). And an optional minor-mode, when enabled, can't shadow ONE of those bindings so that its very commonly used command outline-demote can be, by default, on the easy to type and remember M-right instead of only the difficult to type and remember C-c @ C-right to match the behavior of the very popular org-mode. I agree that default bindings should be changed with caution, even great caution, but IMHO if this case doesn't meet that threshold I'm hard pressed to think of another that can. -- Howard From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 30 13:00:45 2021 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2021 18:00:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55766 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5uY7-0000Oi-6x for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:00:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56816) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5uY4-0000OU-Dc for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:00:42 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:48956) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l5uXz-00052O-3k; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:00:35 -0500 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3650 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1l5uXt-0002mS-N7; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:00:33 -0500 Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 20:00:50 +0200 Message-Id: <83h7my8fu5.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Howard Melman In-Reply-To: (message from Howard Melman on Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:39:52 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0rv0wqc.fsf@gnus.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: 41129@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > From: Howard Melman > Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:39:52 -0500 > > the command right-word, which is only useful when editing > bidirectional This assertion is incorrect. The real goal of right-word is to provide a command that works as users expect in both left-to-right and right-to-left contexts. The alternative would be to request that the user should decide whether to use M-f or M-b to go in a particular direction, and that's a non-starter. > is so important it needs TWO very similar default key bindings > (M-right and C-right) This command has two bindings not because of its importance, but because other programs out there use those bindings. Emacs is following the expectations of the users here. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 30 13:48:57 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2021 18:48:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55799 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5vIk-0001Xl-Ep for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:48:57 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:45880) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5vIf-0001XZ-Cj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:48:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52266) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l5vIf-0003AW-4D for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:48:49 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:40996) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l5vId-0000kU-NM for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:48:48 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l5vIZ-0002EE-VN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 19:48:43 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Howard Melman Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:48:38 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0rv0wqc.fsf@gnus.org> <83h7my8fu5.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:K/2uquU+lv3zSnAoIv+gw2Vr9kE= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: 5 X-Spam_score: 0.5 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Howard Melman >> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 12:39:52 -0500 >> >> the command right-word, which is only useful when editing >> bidirectional > > This assertion is incorrect. The real goal of right-word is to > provide a command that works as users expect in both left-to-right and > right-to-left contexts. The alternative would be to request that the > user should decide whether to use M-f or M-b to go in a particular > direction, and that's a non-starter. I stand corrected. I'm a left-to-right only user and I won't make the case that that is more important, merely that I'm unfamiliar with the specifics of other users. >> is so important it needs TWO very similar default key bindings >> (M-right and C-right) > > This command has two bindings not because of its importance, but > because other programs out there use those bindings. Emacs is > following the expectations of the users here. Ok, but in emacs they expect and need both? How do they adjust in org mode? Or is this a complaint that users of right-word have in org-mode? Would users of outline-minor-mode adjust similarly? Does outline-mode support right-to-left oriented outlines? Does org? I'm guessing not because then these arrow key bindings would want to adjust demote/promote behavior accordingly. Should they? Maybe these bindings could be in another minor-mode that could be enabled by those users that want them? outline-use-org-bindings-minor-mode. -- Howard From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 30 14:22:27 2021 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2021 19:22:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55833 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5vpC-0002Ld-RX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:22:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39626) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5vpA-0002LP-Hq for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:22:25 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:50108) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l5vp5-00071z-CG; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:22:19 -0500 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4667 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1l5vp4-0004ZW-GR; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:22:18 -0500 Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 21:22:38 +0200 Message-Id: <83czxm8c1t.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Howard Melman In-Reply-To: (message from Howard Melman on Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:48:38 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0rv0wqc.fsf@gnus.org> <83h7my8fu5.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: 41129@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > From: Howard Melman > Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:48:38 -0500 > > > This command has two bindings not because of its importance, but > > because other programs out there use those bindings. Emacs is > > following the expectations of the users here. > > Ok, but in emacs they expect and need both? Yes, because some applications support one and others the other key binding. > How do they adjust in org mode? Or is this a complaint that users of > right-word have in org-mode? Would users of outline-minor-mode > adjust similarly? The bindings have nothing to do with bidirectional text. C- and C- (and the corresponding M- bindings) have a meaning in strict left-to-right text as well: they move by words in the corresponding directions. > Does outline-mode support right-to-left oriented outlines? > Does org? Yes to both questions, but again: the issue at hand has nothing to do with bidirectional editing. > I'm guessing not because then these arrow key bindings would want to > adjust demote/promote behavior accordingly. Should they? That's a separate issue, for which I have no definite opinions to offer. I chimed in to set the record straight on these bindings regardless of Org or Outline. Whether rebinding these to level-related commands will or will not confuse users of Org and Outline is something for those users to say. > Maybe these bindings could be in another minor-mode that > could be enabled by those users that want them? > outline-use-org-bindings-minor-mode. I think the idea is that many users want them. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 30 14:40:50 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2021 19:40:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55843 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5w6z-0004s1-Qk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:40:50 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:47258) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5w6x-0004rs-0S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:40:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59350) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l5w6w-0003LX-Pg for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:40:46 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:33248) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l5w6v-0006Fz-EM for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:40:46 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l5w6t-0008K3-QU for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 20:40:43 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org From: Howard Melman Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:40:37 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0rv0wqc.fsf@gnus.org> <83h7my8fu5.fsf@gnu.org> <83czxm8c1t.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:NhmX8/7OFLwdSf6rXaNarGaI1t8= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: 5 X-Spam_score: 0.5 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > The bindings have nothing to do with bidirectional text. C- > and C- (and the corresponding M- bindings) have a meaning in > strict left-to-right text as well: they move by words in the > corresponding directions. >> Does outline-mode support right-to-left oriented outlines? >> Does org? > > Yes to both questions, but again: the issue at hand has nothing to do > with bidirectional editing. I mean yes, they do something expected in left-to-right text, but in strict left-to-right usage these bindings are unnecessary because of M-f and M-b. It's not like emacs enables cua-mode by default because other programs use those bindings and users expect it. Even the emacs manual says: "This command (‘right-word’) behaves like ‘M-f’, except it moves _backward_ by one word if the current paragraph is right-to-left. *Note Bidirectional Editing." >> Maybe these bindings could be in another minor-mode that >> could be enabled by those users that want them? >> outline-use-org-bindings-minor-mode. > > I think the idea is that many users want them. I agree. -- Howard From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jan 30 14:54:59 2021 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jan 2021 19:54:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55852 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5wKg-0005C6-3P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:54:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43206) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l5wKe-0005Bs-RS for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:54:57 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:50487) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l5wKZ-0004Ah-JM; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:54:51 -0500 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2675 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1l5wKZ-0001ZY-0L; Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:54:51 -0500 Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 21:55:12 +0200 Message-Id: <83a6sq8ajj.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Howard Melman In-Reply-To: (message from Howard Melman on Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:40:37 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0rv0wqc.fsf@gnus.org> <83h7my8fu5.fsf@gnu.org> <83czxm8c1t.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: 41129@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > From: Howard Melman > Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:40:37 -0500 > > I mean yes, they do something expected in left-to-right > text, but in strict left-to-right usage these bindings are > unnecessary because of M-f and M-b. They are necessary because users (including users of strict left-to-right text) expect C- etc. to do what they do in Emacs. M-f and M-b are Emacs-specific. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Mar 01 10:21:17 2021 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Mar 2021 15:21:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50413 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lGkMG-0004jW-RH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Mar 2021 10:21:16 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:44050) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lGkMF-0004jI-DN for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Mar 2021 10:21:15 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=tTWMFiVHjcYqDUAk5u9BoJtHa+zXC2JtKjOM0eRTj1Y=; b=r/n3PzWkAvOl+dzKnrxeILoiX7 ROtbc9ApA+HXeyzslVasLl5qsS15Dj4Rnfu8ApO2GXGKlChjQsLBj1uNvkcEgtYJ0yjBGo+2Gou2n 5pA7Cetna/Bc1ZuB5mw+VIiKoEJCaeTCaFfaFPl4Q3U4hApMHYQsAINu4crI4tkdNSxI=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lGkM7-00035t-Rq for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 01 Mar 2021 16:21:09 +0100 Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2021 16:21:06 +0100 Message-Id: <87czwi6gt9.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #41129 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 41129 - moreinfo quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 41129 - moreinfo quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 03 14:14:54 2021 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Mar 2021 19:14:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57007 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lHWxS-0000YS-Cj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 03 Mar 2021 14:14:54 -0500 Received: from relay6-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.198]:50043) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lHWxR-0000Y2-Fh for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 03 Mar 2021 14:14:53 -0500 X-Originating-IP: 91.129.96.116 Received: from mail.gandi.net (m91-129-96-116.cust.tele2.ee [91.129.96.116]) (Authenticated sender: juri@linkov.net) by relay6-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BD73C0004; Wed, 3 Mar 2021 19:14:45 +0000 (UTC) From: Juri Linkov To: Howard Melman Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree Organization: LINKOV.NET References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0rv0wqc.fsf@gnus.org> <83h7my8fu5.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 21:10:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Howard Melman's message of "Sat, 30 Jan 2021 13:48:38 -0500") Message-ID: <87a6rkcfpi.fsf@mail.linkov.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: 41129@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Maybe these bindings could be in another minor-mode that > could be enabled by those users that want them? > outline-use-org-bindings-minor-mode. bug#45147 implemented new mode outline-cycle-minor-mode for Org-like TAB cycling in outline-minor-mode. It's easy to customize outline-mode-cycle-map and to bind M-left/right to outline-promote/demote: (define-key outline-mode-cycle-map [(meta left)] 'outline-promote) (define-key outline-mode-cycle-map [(meta right)] 'outline-demote) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 09 06:38:15 2022 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2022 10:38:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56300 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1no0mN-0004wD-JB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2022 06:38:15 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:40550) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1no0mJ-0004vo-2o for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2022 06:38:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ABLPEJPI5rA96CNYpVwfXNRhwKluwcCG2XgI13+1mMg=; b=DbqiFFTKzXbF7cV9x2N8klYPp6 CB69ShYxubM3F+Nj3tmHkpMIdCFfxD26/vKdypxrdIC/+qi7UvaZQPsUoOYzg/sA6vQheCiN2U6YN oJaxSftdbAfpfTfHfGsMk+0Ln9bG88Ru8hk3BYZkZMNqJvx35rx/o69S+dmxv38j/Wfk=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1no0mA-0004h0-Aj; Mon, 09 May 2022 12:38:04 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Juri Linkov Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0rv0wqc.fsf@gnus.org> <83h7my8fu5.fsf@gnu.org> <87a6rkcfpi.fsf@mail.linkov.net> X-Now-Playing: Minny Pops's _Sparks in a Dark Room_: "Crack" Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 12:38:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87a6rkcfpi.fsf@mail.linkov.net> (Juri Linkov's message of "Wed, 03 Mar 2021 21:10:13 +0200") Message-ID: <87k0av9ek6.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Juri Linkov writes: > bug#45147 implemented new mode outline-cycle-minor-mode > for Org-like TAB cycling in outline-minor-mode. > > It's easy to customize outline-mode-cycle-map > and to bind M-left/right to outline-prom [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: Howard Melman , 41129@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Juri Linkov writes: > bug#45147 implemented new mode outline-cycle-minor-mode > for Org-like TAB cycling in outline-minor-mode. > > It's easy to customize outline-mode-cycle-map > and to bind M-left/right to outline-promote/demote: > > (define-key outline-mode-cycle-map [(meta left)] 'outline-promote) > (define-key outline-mode-cycle-map [(meta right)] 'outline-demote) It's now outline-minor-mode-cycle-map, but I added the four bindings suggested by Stefan to Emacs 29 now, and I guess we'll find out whether that gets in the way of people's work flows here. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 09 06:38:15 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2022 10:38:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56302 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1no0mN-0004wF-QK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2022 06:38:15 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:40566) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1no0mN-0004vt-0j for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2022 06:38:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=bkIv6bMimFsSVP80vvAtlQi8dvO1yif8LOAubDCsDfw=; b=m3d1DCVqHtvZy87Hk+ffQAck2C m/19jvOf/XylxTgdd83lv+tUozLl3h1D9CZcv2qjuiP5bpK5yjBoL+5XraaVF3cNQhmYalWbZsTcn WMBbVEqPtgNOZ7YkOJGITPPcq4QR5lQbTxVlTwmGdozMUIINi2IA2/nurFqnhWCBXL40=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1no0mF-0004hF-9Q for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2022 12:38:09 +0200 Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 12:38:06 +0200 Message-Id: <87ilqf9ek1.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #41129 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. 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[108.26.204.101]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a26-20020ac84d9a000000b002f39b99f676sm7663355qtw.16.2022.05.09.07.31.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 09 May 2022 07:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree From: Howard Melman In-Reply-To: <87k0av9ek6.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 10:31:18 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <87109B7E-5940-4E02-96CF-93E298778AEC@gmail.com> References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0rv0wqc.fsf@gnus.org> <83h7my8fu5.fsf@gnu.org> <87a6rkcfpi.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87k0av9ek6.fsf@gnus.org> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: 41129@debbugs.gnu.org, Juri Linkov X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > On May 9, 2022, at 6:38 AM, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > > Juri Linkov writes: > >> bug#45147 implemented new mode outline-cycle-minor-mode >> for Org-like TAB cycling in outline-minor-mode. >> >> It's easy to customize outline-mode-cycle-map >> and to bind M-left/right to outline-promote/demote: >> >> (define-key outline-mode-cycle-map [(meta left)] 'outline-promote) >> (define-key outline-mode-cycle-map [(meta right)] 'outline-demote) > > It's now outline-minor-mode-cycle-map, but I added the four bindings > suggested by Stefan to Emacs 29 now, and I guess we'll find out whether > that gets in the way of people's work flows here. Should these four bindings be on outline-minor-mode-cycle-map or on outline-minor-mode-map? They don't have to do with cycling. Howard From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 09 22:03:38 2022 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 May 2022 02:03:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59841 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1noFDu-0007iG-3C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2022 22:03:38 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:48638) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1noFDs-0007i0-Oj for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2022 22:03:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=bILYf8wC97xIKmb80DIPw0KXTDPQloeZA6EKjrSJ/wY=; b=UYFFKDcaiHM2omMrP9VCm7Eg47 LboMpvG+X5gBxDx0sDYOj6gh3FjngN5GvhOtZX7UHU2hK7c9nbMoqPAF4IvVovtS5VUpcgqpzSEmz FYVc4GmPYPmpGdtxfbQLrBR+PhE0Gy5AQfyzzvj2rjE93p9SqoTVipoKuvY+u2d9aOrE=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1noFDk-0004mL-32; Tue, 10 May 2022 04:03:30 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Howard Melman Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0rv0wqc.fsf@gnus.org> <83h7my8fu5.fsf@gnu.org> <87a6rkcfpi.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87k0av9ek6.fsf@gnus.org> <87109B7E-5940-4E02-96CF-93E298778AEC@gmail.com> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAALVBMVEX9/fnq5dPQ0M2u raC0w8VplIzr1qbhvWX3pxCSaC9aVSQyLBRXTzSclmf////+39xWAAAAAWJLR0QOb70wTwAAAAd0 SU1FB+YFCgIBOncHAbYAAAGmSURBVDjLnZPBS8JQHMf3XpKBCZuiRRC4KXXoYq4ODYUs9R+I7kKg Hg0PBtXVnrcoSCSEoNPe5slTvjp1cipo0MFh/0vPLHDb85BfdtjeZ+/32/f7e+O4BQUWIPw/t8Ao cMnHJ7LMYtJErFrAJ0kwIiWtEHLQn9yTxDCUUpbXIQ93JV9EEgEvgFz2b1mgXwtpk1hYpI8X52vZ GQ90XaQXx7lRcaXCslBA2XXEM0C9XiygIgNgrWXUWQBV7x/JgAVQFlVZOwqojKbNBStw3yyjytSe bRZlgH4MulKnISsJTo0HUumSrdpUrtT21cMRC6T7l7XPqBMEjLdxQ313Ag8hr1gffTjAartLXvSD L8dB8BiEtPVEQp4MbFYbdB3rpjGwh7OjUYAbnaG9VBxrpK/q8iRpSzhmzSRY1bpRO+jkr3vjttai t3AWgGZ5q9cl2q19MkvNfKnXNdRDe2+vmisrGD85jEMcC8bbWsgBOGU/o4xajNi9scyZyUidA0Mh 2OBYEoTfIdslCsyR00zu5gDFfAbM39m/2aSHTuB5J+InsfJgTkWrvgHykXNhcXUPfQAAACV0RVh0 ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMi0wNS0xMFQwMjowMTo1OCswMDowMG9xd/0AAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9k aWZ5ADIwMjItMDUtMTBUMDI6MDE6NTgrMDA6MDAeLM9BAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Joni Mitchell's _Ladies of the Canyon_: "Morning Morgantown" Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 04:03:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87109B7E-5940-4E02-96CF-93E298778AEC@gmail.com> (Howard Melman's message of "Mon, 9 May 2022 10:31:18 -0400") Message-ID: <87zgjqm9e9.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Howard Melman writes: > Should these four bindings be on outline-minor-mode-cycle-map or > on outline-minor-mode-map? They don't have to do with cycling. Juri suggested putting them on the former because they'd be too disturbing in the main map -- M- etc are bound to navigation commands in editable buffers. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: 41129@debbugs.gnu.org, Juri Linkov X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Howard Melman writes: > Should these four bindings be on outline-minor-mode-cycle-map or > on outline-minor-mode-map? They don't have to do with cycling. Juri suggested putting them on the former because they'd be too disturbing in the main map -- M- etc are bound to navigation commands in editable buffers. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 11 03:25:19 2022 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 May 2022 07:25:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35846 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nogik-0005zw-SE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2022 03:25:19 -0400 Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.194]:38711) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nogij-0005zU-7s for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2022 03:25:17 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: juri@linkov.net) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9264B40002; Wed, 11 May 2022 07:25:09 +0000 (UTC) From: Juri Linkov To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree Organization: LINKOV.NET References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0rv0wqc.fsf@gnus.org> <83h7my8fu5.fsf@gnu.org> <87a6rkcfpi.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87k0av9ek6.fsf@gnus.org> <87109B7E-5940-4E02-96CF-93E298778AEC@gmail.com> <87zgjqm9e9.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 10:10:07 +0300 In-Reply-To: <87zgjqm9e9.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Tue, 10 May 2022 04:03:26 +0200") Message-ID: <86mtfoa7uo.fsf@mail.linkov.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: Howard Melman , 41129@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) >> Should these four bindings be on outline-minor-mode-cycle-map or >> on outline-minor-mode-map? They don't have to do with cycling. > > Juri suggested putting them on the former because they'd be too > disturbing in the main map -- M- etc are bound to navigation > commands in editable buffers. Actually I suggested these bindings only for personal customization for anyone who needs to edit heading levels because these bindings are too intrusive to be used by default in the cycling map. It already takes the TAB key from users, and taking more keys is too much for the cycling map. To be able to add editing keys to outline-minor-mode they need to be on some separate map such as outline-minor-mode-edit-map. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 11 06:38:05 2022 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 May 2022 10:38:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36152 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nojjJ-0004zu-9i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2022 06:38:05 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f67.google.com ([209.85.216.67]:52220) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nojjH-0004zR-N1 for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2022 06:38:04 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f67.google.com with SMTP id x88so1864988pjj.1 for <41129@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 11 May 2022 03:38:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iyS/4tNobq3nnPviZ7rLeE1BzaMrC9QrDR5my559ILs=; b=GFiJX23H2IiPtPo5XCD/rm99yzOiA1GtQMy25kmqpqfMwwG2OJZObbjVU+t3G/pck7 IlU30FAxn6yMY6/1zTNtsTs6XzYLUM5C3qMaK+5pmIZ4lphuKV2MO+fmpy/uOmnM3QJx IINk0RVUFtt5GQjQ24umHBN80RZHOla6+lUvcY7IjsTmnmU45juKinYfb3PM3gXsUJKw RqKWLaexw5r1A/e0wr2gqIWnLzJETm3jI63MLLxNIcMkKXtGr6dv1RQLVT3Dg7n74CJ7 B9XBfSgG/SQvspbdwrF7lXzUQnYitJCsYcyGS4aD67Q2rp4QEojghu3DwQcX1wqLVS82 UVbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iyS/4tNobq3nnPviZ7rLeE1BzaMrC9QrDR5my559ILs=; b=eCBcbBEgBDSOkp/axUEsQfSVWL4NDUS9dEpzHQr6ao75Hq1cFiZ2n45D1UP9iUbASI wvSO1B3A4h2JtVqQtl4a5m29x+pO5UmKce9+FfeP8hIeeHxbtK1F51B17Byh41oyea4H nIu6JOO82q+wtysQOl/n1BHAtbIbwBmeKyp9Dm7gCfbTRGJiR/+2hD1Cr77i1hVG8lRj QEp0x9j3buKLK4x8u7V9Qt3s4gQoZETVqCMdFQIwITBiA1DLQMl4lOPMJwQJU7NaYyH0 RWWexyl53mVhZTyG3cO9AEhdJ8+z2R2s2198WB/JKq1J+qVxZwxsoGDRuQCbh5VyXuJR Zx+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533PKQqilPHR7KtZ6R0FDY0aUMZyczLUJyMdelXWVdYqUYo460GC 4Su2KQNHMpSerHxPGEbozcM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx+PlDQqlbns937+ScW6Y7kfao8qEpQ3FLMphVbK+uM2SmyYFxpcy0kz/EbNrDdVqr1kQiHSA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:2406:b0:158:f6f0:6c44 with SMTP id e6-20020a170903240600b00158f6f06c44mr24626325plo.88.1652265477674; Wed, 11 May 2022 03:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([115.240.90.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b8-20020a1709027e0800b0015ef27092aasm1449796plm.190.2022.05.11.03.37.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 11 May 2022 03:37:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Visuwesh To: Juri Linkov Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0rv0wqc.fsf@gnus.org> <83h7my8fu5.fsf@gnu.org> <87a6rkcfpi.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87k0av9ek6.fsf@gnus.org> <87109B7E-5940-4E02-96CF-93E298778AEC@gmail.com> <87zgjqm9e9.fsf@gnus.org> <86mtfoa7uo.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 16:07:40 +0530 In-Reply-To: <86mtfoa7uo.fsf@mail.linkov.net> (Juri Linkov's message of "Wed, 11 May 2022 10:10:07 +0300") Message-ID: <87r1509wy3.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Howard Melman , 41129@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) [=E0=AE=AA=E0=AF=81=E0=AE=A4=E0=AE=A9=E0=AF=8D =E0=AE=AE=E0=AF=87 11, 2022]= Juri Linkov wrote: >>> Should these four bindings be on outline-minor-mode-cycle-map or >>> on outline-minor-mode-map? They don't have to do with cycling. >> >> Juri suggested putting them on the former because they'd be too >> disturbing in the main map -- M- etc are bound to navigation >> commands in editable buffers. > > Actually I suggested these bindings only for personal customization > for anyone who needs to edit heading levels because these bindings > are too intrusive to be used by default in the cycling map. > It already takes the TAB key from users, and taking more keys is too much > for the cycling map. To be able to add editing keys to outline-minor-mode > they need to be on some separate map such as outline-minor-mode-edit-map. Moreover, with repeat-mode turned on, changing the outline level and moving them is not tedious anymore. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 11 07:57:05 2022 Received: (at 41129) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 May 2022 11:57:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36308 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nokxk-0005HZ-Vw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2022 07:57:05 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:40198) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nokxk-0005Ge-1E for 41129@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 May 2022 07:57:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=p9ikM4RVhyQXM/hlyHUTXkHAAEll+a/E6Bd1k82GHS8=; b=aOyf4SKHKzlZiNrnGOzokxCBTm zEAkaeaiRjIDRomhyi6M1HKHwRR5Fn7rnEG/DcadBHMHrphLBCeTzckt5fJbQS6HRA48UT5hqXPSr O1Byckb07b7mqyOruRe36pmng63nscaAD7GlZBfVfl/lhO2+gc0bQF2FqmSa1cqoLv+I=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nokxa-0007nL-LI; Wed, 11 May 2022 13:56:56 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Juri Linkov Subject: Re: bug#41129: outline-mode: New keybindings for demote/promote/move-subtree References: <87k0rx3792.fsf@gnus.org> <87pn1oxs7u.fsf@gnus.org> <87k0rv0wqc.fsf@gnus.org> <83h7my8fu5.fsf@gnu.org> <87a6rkcfpi.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87k0av9ek6.fsf@gnus.org> <87109B7E-5940-4E02-96CF-93E298778AEC@gmail.com> <87zgjqm9e9.fsf@gnus.org> <86mtfoa7uo.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAALVBMVEUBAQIVGCUlIy9W UGEtM0tMOEOblqjbubLk09drcZOegX/99/mdaV94hav///+wQeS2AAAAAWJLR0QOb70wTwAAAAd0 SU1FB+YFCwseHjEztxMAAAGDSURBVDjL5ZK/T8JAFMfvqovbvaYxjhSJiU7qlYgjbTFxkxDq4nyA u9Ag+13S0V+piYMDcWGGJre4uBhnEgf+F1t+lpYYBzbfeJ/7vve+d1+E1l0YdAKgQ1jLQDFK5d1j W6O5XALoiGCAtOK3KZgAAbwC5DJ6RlXJ2n39YaeiZiJl1WTbMtFZlWZSYJOCWnFcfpQiz6peaQkv eE2cKw9ZuPSklMHhMrCyAAUZVX95BUsDqI+BvFkCWw1aup0A/h4HO5xVvQkYtOPNHLd5MDmXQesj BvYEd+agF9usIMSJOwW8012AuhC1qUK6na+LmELywdigJwXvVefzt5nLB9G+/ZoctNpXc8k+fQwf KlKI0EnrcwZww3gS3tQI7y46WaeM1WUIguu8HnOxcW86+TfmBc1y4md1EkXNKqa+CQjBCqUWtU2I +pNphLENSFX9sEbfPtUJUmfZzobX4NwfDRljdybB86iGeqxY/suQDRt5gyRypEW9fCNnogQAzbbD 4UDQf6gfbvaVdAPpCWcAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjItMDUtMTFUMTE6MzA6MzArMDA6 MDBifCELAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIyLTA1LTExVDExOjMwOjMwKzAwOjAwEyGZtwAA AABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Joni Mitchell's _Night Ride Home_: "Nothing Can Be Done" Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 13:56:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: <86mtfoa7uo.fsf@mail.linkov.net> (Juri Linkov's message of "Wed, 11 May 2022 10:10:07 +0300") Message-ID: <87sfpgb7uh.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Juri Linkov writes: > Actually I suggested these bindings only for personal customization > for anyone who needs to edit heading levels because these bindings > are too intrusive to be used by default in the cycling map. [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41129 Cc: Howard Melman , 41129@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Juri Linkov writes: > Actually I suggested these bindings only for personal customization > for anyone who needs to edit heading levels because these bindings > are too intrusive to be used by default in the cycling map. > It already takes the TAB key from users, and taking more keys is too much > for the cycling map. To be able to add editing keys to outline-minor-mode > they need to be on some separate map such as outline-minor-mode-edit-map. Sorry; I misunderstood you. I've now reverted the change. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Tue Jun 17 20:13:37 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2022 11:24:06 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator