From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:05:01 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#41006 <41006@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#41006 <41006@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 26.3; regular expressions documentation Reply-To: bug#41006 <41006@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 07:05:01 +0000 retitle 41006 26.3; regular expressions documentation reassign 41006 emacs submitter 41006 jan severity 41006 wishlist thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 01 15:06:25 2020 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 May 2020 19:06:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50661 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jUazQ-0001rn-Sr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 May 2020 15:06:25 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:50560) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jUazP-0001rf-OW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 May 2020 15:06:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59100) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUazO-00056Q-KL for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 May 2020 15:06:23 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF,FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUazB-0003z7-Hf for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 May 2020 15:06:22 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-x42b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::42b]:45495) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUazB-0003yu-55 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 01 May 2020 15:06:09 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id w65so1941377pfc.12 for ; Fri, 01 May 2020 12:06:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pM7YF5kpa+pn9DX2PqT/asd9yGGJYpa3YTxkLacQVUQ=; b=vEAKx/SuLCkf60StM7UXjdlXeq4y09h4ka4N4Ecyn6B7NXvwjf1Zs/3gz/xc5G5+ab I9YFCHwKNH3gul+gCb8LoJcp4Fwd/wxdZJ+U9QrQTDwH4XCoEGVuWPlBuw7SfZyzphdo QwN+5/dW5MS1VnuWfpWWPC6a5r5puUAO5c87mNKl5wNOQwbatyKvd41dP3ZNqKpvMMco R12e+HcWZYQ+qpLbRUMrtG0KfsA0DtVyIFxYTSwtXZLztvwEicFTF+jXgLbuVCnAyvQy +wylF2uWqYcaN1VdFwDAcTPuAXzTv9UdYlTo/VEFR3r3+XCW/383sJRZ4dBGGezH69Bz 3F+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pM7YF5kpa+pn9DX2PqT/asd9yGGJYpa3YTxkLacQVUQ=; b=rcSPpVZtapiNmw7dtNw28jj3gXdxXDfp0wawbc32A++pqkanFjboM3BI7ysb+vKp7x tGLQUjJvL3AjPONbahi9TkdY9FWHx+35jeo2RX2ICO/ztjfi7e9tZvqxSyODs5/JJFAS O0hb32rqrowi/dm/U75qkPsHPRxRCf+d1jmgk4dU2rn6jf6XqmiKGGtZOM7D0umofyAV DnZgfpzpmDs1Ww+7emskXPCAIZcLZvuAYWAjmy7xERyhEaUEzIDv+Hl6pPQsCRMeqlN0 YHUolTMLKQURMl1zkBlkbaVzDVbiwfAs9CLagYslTbSJJdgStfi3E7+MG46xseDTRKPZ 5ZZw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYuzKgO/0sIDasVfKckFL7aS/vEWsiU2AZSglzayLEkZLNIUooS t/4wkPUGbp5AiYJAyn5L6ndy7BvDIdM5T+yzj+h/Cw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLEJrcm7k/1mdc6kkjjHgJrm8MVSToxDXH+xnpQOeNjaDRKGKWfJfU0fHkFI54Y1SsLp+igSO2U2e+IU/bPj/I= X-Received: by 2002:a63:cf0b:: with SMTP id j11mr5211196pgg.404.1588359967143; Fri, 01 May 2020 12:06:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9a86:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 1 May 2020 12:06:06 -0700 (PDT) From: jan Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 20:06:06 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::42b; envelope-from=rtm443x@googlemail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x42b.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::42b X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Hi, 3 issues (nothing major). 1. Suggest emacs' excellent documentation should not distinguish between Regexps and Regexp Backslash in the manual. That is, these 2 should be combined: * Regexps:: Syntax of regular expressions. * Regexp Backslash:: Regular expression constructs starting with= =E2=80=98\=E2=80=99. AFAICS the difference is purely arbitrary. There have been times I've looked for the syntax for such syntax and found it only because I knew it was there, but not in the same section. A beginner might conclude emacs doesn't support them. 2. The documentation for {N, M} repetitions matching is incomplete (has been a long time). Docs say M may be omitted but from testing I find N may be omitted also ie \{,M\} is valid, and useful. eg. ba\{,2\}d correctly matches only the top 2 of bad baad baaad baaaad 3. This from the docs =E2=80=98\=3D=E2=80=99 matches the empty string, but only at point. baffles me. I've had a hard look for any examples of how it may be used and found nothing. I feel I may be missing something extremely useful, I just don't know what! thanks jan In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2019-08-29 built on CIRROCUMULUS Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Recent messages: Loading desktop...done Warning: desktop file appears to be in use by PID 4740. Using it may cause conflicts. Use it anyway? (y or n) n Desktop file in use; not loaded. For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a. Mark saved where search started Mark set Quit Mark saved where search started Configured using: 'configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' Configured features: XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG SOUND NOTIFY ACL GNUTLS LIBXML2 ZLIB TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS THREADS LCMS2 Important settings: value of $LANG: ENG locale-coding-system: cp1252 Major mode: Text Minor modes in effect: desktop-save-mode: t tooltip-mode: t global-eldoc-mode: t electric-indent-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t menu-bar-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t line-number-mode: t transient-mark-mode: (only . t) Load-path shadows: None found. Features: (shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message rmc puny dired dired-loaddefs format-spec rfc822 mml mml-sec epa derived epg gnus-util rmail rmail-loaddefs mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils browse-url url-util thingatpt misearch multi-isearch elec-pair edmacro kmacro desktop frameset cus-start cus-load finder-inf info package easymenu epg-config url-handlers url-parse auth-source cl-seq eieio eieio-core cl-macs eieio-loaddefs password-cache url-vars seq byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile cconv cl-loaddefs cl-lib time-date mule-util tooltip eldoc electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel dos-w32 ls-lisp disp-table term/w32-win w32-win w32-vars term/common-win tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode elisp-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core term/tty-colors frame cl-generic cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite charscript charprop case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray minibuffer cl-preloaded nadvice loaddefs button faces cus-face macroexp files text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote threads w32notify w32 lcms2 multi-tty make-network-process emacs) Memory information: ((conses 16 132611 9138) (symbols 48 23577 1) (miscs 40 56 151) (strings 32 41277 1782) (string-bytes 1 1117275) (vectors 16 18093) (vector-slots 8 539691 7632) (floats 8 60 91) (intervals 56 259 5) (buffers 992 12)) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 02 23:40:41 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2020 03:40:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54429 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jV5Ub-0006J4-If for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 23:40:41 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33348) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jV5UZ-0006Io-5b for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 23:40:36 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:44621) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jV5UT-0001zP-Re; Sat, 02 May 2020 23:40:29 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jV5UR-00016K-UH; Sat, 02 May 2020 23:40:28 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: jan In-Reply-To: (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: Message-Id: Date: Sat, 02 May 2020 23:40:27 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > 1. Suggest emacs' excellent documentation should not distinguish between > Regexps and Regexp Backslash in the manual. > That is, these 2 should be combined: When a node is too long, browsing in Info becomes inconvenient. Therefore, we look for a reading way to split up the node. We found that way to split up the node on regexps. There is no logical _need_ to split the topic that way, but it is not unreasonable, so it was a valid solution to the overlongness. I expect that many nodes are too long now, and we should look for reasonable ways to split them. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 03 06:32:21 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2020 10:32:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54705 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVBuu-0008DP-CR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 06:32:21 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f179.google.com ([209.85.210.179]:39708) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVBuh-0008Ck-4Y for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 06:32:10 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f179.google.com with SMTP id 18so4065463pfx.6 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 03 May 2020 03:31:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HjXvrdJkoY6eR89pK5A/7oscS4XJqpkP7bi3Y5PCxBo=; b=gzPD6Q6Qwi0E+bGyUEGUoXeXdTyWZ9BYe+ng29IMYBoCa5L4l33Owy/4hgHCC2moFs MzUvi8YYuNEPqd9xN3b2zi9H+8xgPbJZabN6IpTD/ko7hmnTnOe16v/PvmnBoTIfeWjf XVpVLVwxpPctBnQ7TvOkNqFeDDZmZPyQpnp7VfB59bZMTu3pJYWTEg77psF4/cVTMlcA O0QCWMUceJOjSYp+9/1XwLb1N9/EXcp2Qz/3cpvOlkry73zTqHutX3OThvPPq2G9aDXL pyTZs2Gc0PdLNDbHwXq5NUfae3YOtMKeMaZvA7ynjeDSlWqlnvf46hbhN2dzTy6E6m+W Msag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HjXvrdJkoY6eR89pK5A/7oscS4XJqpkP7bi3Y5PCxBo=; b=C+FKhlvMndrDVWkxKzV+OVbHts0kOjCqqsrmhW0UJVa8p9CdNCa+/nMEZvd+U2plxz F0gu1V+9ABMEUSQFrnO4aeD5qYM5DoFah8e3U/7YfJHrSNwDa2xILTQZPgzr1HQhibGP 8a164ReoX4OBpJkgTHrtlCNz/i7L+20Ye+s6YTdVRVk4hDUqodpToBrL2AqNhuw3XVql hLGLuFL5eyJBZzmkAhrNj1Z2bg2LuykjwnYbl/2KjlLmFTGrtiRjSP118Au3hTUzNsm+ wI9gFWVQX1r2Vr7WxNy80WAkPsh+jzSuYNRLimP+NcG33E5MOrFy0Tu6ZdOCuTXdxfZy swvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pubs4gQW5s7KUGairYhwSg7LLLEGM1VaTfL0nh7pu5Bfwar3t9Le wSOCviIRinPHQRJHoIytCVhwp+EqH4RCt1F6Eo9RgA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIgIllwPm3R+eB3PHj79ENKtpSKETZtnSeiSl/fGVjgPBPBoEszG+piNZPYU/nWMDqtEpSsLgogDFxSMJh3g7o= X-Received: by 2002:a62:3303:: with SMTP id z3mr11625060pfz.88.1588501913210; Sun, 03 May 2020 03:31:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9a86:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 3 May 2020 03:31:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: jan Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 11:31:52 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) Well there's a name I recognise! Wasn't expecting that. Anyway, allow me to push back slightly. I have long ago training in user interfaces, but I'm no expert. To transmit info it has to be, among other things, 'evident' or 'obvious'. In this case I'd say that means visible. Section "15.6 Syntax of Regular Expressions" is very visible. It's easily navigable up and down by mouse or keyboard, also the scroll bar gives clearer indication of how much there is and where you are on the page. Great stuff. Even better it's easy to browse 'exhaustively' - if I start at the top of the page and into the bottom I know I've covered everything. I find that property very useful as I do *a lot* of technical reading. But it's only showing about half the information. There is no evident indication that there is more. I'm not the first person to get confused by this ( "The answer you seek seems to be in a separate section (Regexp Backslash), at least in the version I am currently using" - that took about 15 seconds to find). If you combine both sections together it would be visible and exhaustive. Whether it would be too long is something I can't answer, but my opinion would be it's okay (based purely on my evidence-free opinion). If you don't want to combine them then make the other half reasonably visible (it's rather odd that the top of the section points you at "(elisp)Regular Expressions" but not to backslash section). About the only evidence there is a second section, is right at the very top in the breadcrumbs (Next: Regexp Backslash) and a little hint at the end ("...since backslashes can legitimately precede these characters where they _have_ special meaning, as in..."). Specifically may have suggests that the start that currently looks like this: " 15.6 Syntax of Regular Expressions ================================== This section (and this manual in general)... " perhaps have a direct link to the next section, like this " 15.6 Syntax of Regular Expressions ================================== Non-Backslash Regular Expressions <--- dead link because you're here Backslash Regular Expressions (more regexp syntax) <--- live link This section (and this manual in general)... " And perhaps repeat that link at the end of that help page as well. Or something else. Whatever you think works, assuming you even think I have a point. regards jan On 03/05/2020, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > 1. Suggest emacs' excellent documentation should not distinguish > between > > Regexps and Regexp Backslash in the manual. > > That is, these 2 should be combined: > > When a node is too long, browsing in Info becomes inconvenient. > Therefore, we look for a reading way to split up the node. > > We found that way to split up the node on regexps. > There is no logical _need_ to split the topic that way, but it is not > unreasonable, so it was a valid solution to the overlongness. > > I expect that many nodes are too long now, and we should look for > reasonable ways to split them. > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) > Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > > > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 03 09:07:50 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2020 13:07:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54877 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVELW-00080h-Hy for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 09:07:50 -0400 Received: from mail1464c50.megamailservers.eu ([91.136.14.64]:48984 helo=mail268c50.megamailservers.eu) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVELV-00080U-2w for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 09:07:50 -0400 X-Authenticated-User: mattiase@bredband.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=megamailservers.eu; s=maildub; t=1588511262; bh=62NctXiq8GlrS8KyijCYE1sQ29DEVUpRJ3V3nggkbkM=; h=From:Subject:Date:Cc:To:From; b=rPFCix5T/eZZg8WhT2xjf2lzq0YIr4c+rtqTFdFwtxtdnX0vkfSvP78Q8SO2Cjxnr GRNObVoBEy7Si7lkuoVbQyWDh3JovV4/ayADg0BeMo27G7EheFANupPrX4hRTE9IXy PuOD8zI7ENxUg5e/kq99O3Tq4X6fPR3NBMWY09MY= Feedback-ID: mattiase@acm.or Received: from stanniol.lan (c-4e4ae655.032-75-73746f71.bbcust.telenor.se [85.230.74.78]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail268c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id 043D7dak029403; Sun, 3 May 2020 13:07:41 +0000 From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation Message-Id: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 15:07:39 +0200 To: jan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A782F25.5EAEC1C2.009D, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CSC: 0 X-CHA: v=2.3 cv=BZ+mLYl2 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=klNLuyVZdLUgl+K5Uafb2A==:117 a=klNLuyVZdLUgl+K5Uafb2A==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=M51BFTxLslgA:10 a=y8zZgcTpAGS3jaPnYdEA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: The disposition of the regexp documentation could be improved, yes. Currently it's arranged by syntax, which is the implementor's view, rather than by function, which is the user's. Condensing related [...] Content analysis details: (1.4 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: megamailservers.eu] 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record 1.0 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail) 0.4 KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS Relay HELO differs from its IP's reverse DNS X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: Richard Stallman , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) The disposition of the regexp documentation could be improved, yes. = Currently it's arranged by syntax, which is the implementor's view, = rather than by function, which is the user's. Condensing related text = into a single page would help. (Cf. the more recently written section on = rx in Emacs 27.) The manual does say =E2=80=98\{M,N\}=E2=80=99 [...] If M is omitted, the minimum is 0; if N is omitted, there is = no maximum. so you may be mistaken on that point. The \=3D anchor is probably less frequently used than the other = zero-width assertions such as $, \< etc but does come in handy = occasionally. It's there in case you need it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 03 10:01:05 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2020 14:01:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57497 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVFB3-0001UV-93 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 10:01:05 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f172.google.com ([209.85.215.172]:41816) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVFAo-0001Tg-5n for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 10:01:03 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f172.google.com with SMTP id o18so2005693pgg.8 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 03 May 2020 07:00:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WpIaDermcT4qIAx1OSyuoB/T4aqu2KbOWVitOYXcizo=; b=iDnAZd8iO9su9M0HkMbxPU+poovuNdEirAgJjOWtx+CWn5LIkOXXnd7xlK1Ik+7vME fEz4dLikTHvHvlXQ/H3IN8pTiIBPP92W2kJbucX62qLB6IdWKEm1imDWDP/F/Ba9zIFn F0xwo78vtCJKqRsjVM2p8MA9d4Go6NMYZk2MfSHJdvTq4iW74GU98ayo/F/49yCd8rTS RDsfxGQrgJk53TrOUgljHBbpuZLw/bLaFVKEiqBtkb2V6B9ppmPxQBurQ9XFYkMcHB2j 47+8A4Z2nWS6k/+d2vDBl/bv///TV7HJGvRB+CY0fQCLQbw79a7xUiuRQwu/wcudv4Ch AQSw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WpIaDermcT4qIAx1OSyuoB/T4aqu2KbOWVitOYXcizo=; b=ekMCL6A2O09WZzuulCF3v2PkAoIxgFLqwLxJWMFBgwOF/xBSphnWbYjmr+yW2hQmJz wjbzqFo9+YAd+3B/5AUXopkm/fjMp0/BybMb6WUz6YOsjuUBue67ySb5KH+L3FvxBHMZ Mi6Z0M+n7YBJsDunYr0xnU3hhsNlyxUzoPKqa3zqgxVKU7lw7UfaYF8XOv3S9wcFeXyo dXdXqRN9SF49nhfZY8MJ2asazqvsdRV0Zu3xr3AI16fVh0R5uZ7tfqpaheFZimmTi2FX EvuexcmaN+iQDAl4Vc/dFrByP47ebPZ8u1MwWuoPGoeHm0ea6JOYXcBvRZGpJXwObqy3 +uNg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaNqlmMtvGmelWjX5TdFjmur1X1URbhDkAOczeAx8y8kZZO2KpH 2cg5dGI/O6p2h3qEphBSvF8Hph7e/t8YUNexRi4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJgrdHSILKXr16wVdHwqiGDOfUY4ACwBDXi+Akze5rHd6JimG1Xltmdh/Ta9lRLGavNvOOnDFyrU92j/B57cX4= X-Received: by 2002:a62:3303:: with SMTP id z3mr12240446pfz.88.1588514444125; Sun, 03 May 2020 07:00:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9a86:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 3 May 2020 07:00:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> From: jan Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 15:00:43 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: Richard Stallman , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > Currently it's arranged by syntax, which is the implementor's view, rathe= r than by function, which is the user's. Nicely put. > The manual does say > > =E2=80=98\{M,N\}=E2=80=99 > [...] If M is omitted, the minimum is 0; if N is omitted, there is n= o > maximum. I did install 26.3 to make sure, and I've checked again and I genuinely can't see that, but if it does, sorted, thanks. The \=3D I'm sure is great, I just don't know where it might be useful. Some examples might be of help however the manual isn't the place for them. The value of other anchors is obvious, I've used them all IIRC. Thank you all. jan On 03/05/2020, Mattias Engdeg=C3=A5rd wrote: > The disposition of the regexp documentation could be improved, yes. > Currently it's arranged by syntax, which is the implementor's view, rathe= r > than by function, which is the user's. Condensing related text into a sin= gle > page would help. (Cf. the more recently written section on rx in Emacs 27= .) > > The manual does say > > =E2=80=98\{M,N\}=E2=80=99 > [...] If M is omitted, the minimum is 0; if N is omitted, there is n= o > maximum. > > so you may be mistaken on that point. > > The \=3D anchor is probably less frequently used than the other zero-widt= h > assertions such as $, \< etc but does come in handy occasionally. It's th= ere > in case you need it. > > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 03 16:10:36 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2020 20:10:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58087 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVKwe-0006lC-3u for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 16:10:36 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:58182) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVKwc-0006l0-4j for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 16:10:34 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 043K8wn1159263; Sun, 3 May 2020 20:10:18 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=l6iH8J8LL4PQdlABvQc5IH2p5IHycGDTS7/R4Ov/27k=; b=rlfhX/ztsNVU1DA9IFPVa0oegYZAqPA257AsiFpFRvWE0sTGbY+wfqSFA7nikvUODx/7 +qXDX/jB31ZqEyZQkkBpWNwS4qkW/CdBZ+oH2WDd2dJmBX0oMuCGMPuZS45rQwcdpEIQ 4zwt0yNnsscmCVjQnRYuoHbf12Vr1s2EZ2OY7sZ6rjsph7DhPSLr6f1+MnpRjG9iC7dK 2TQXlZDrE3Hm3BLn2oh4xp0XhXzYaMq6UogQnWOjjwZ153iwHHpWMY0RX/9+494f0qIJ nsUja/xq74HO5MoaVOh8Db2Os5D3zVkxdE0XueKF/vPDCAtHNflkA9eQifNu2SVM0Lrn qA== Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30s1gmutnh-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 03 May 2020 20:10:18 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 043K6VUF114440; Sun, 3 May 2020 20:08:17 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30sjju4dud-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 03 May 2020 20:08:17 +0000 Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 043K8FE2028512; Sun, 3 May 2020 20:08:15 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 13:08:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: =?utf-8?B?TWF0dGlhcyBFbmdkZWfDpXJk?= , jan Subject: RE: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> In-Reply-To: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4993.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9610 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005030178 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9610 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005030178 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: Richard Stallman , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > The disposition of the regexp documentation could be improved, yes. > Currently it's arranged by syntax, which is the implementor's view, > rather than by function, which is the user's. FWIW, I disagree with that characterization. Especially when it comes to the doc for regexp patterns, as a user I want it to be organized according to syntax. A regexp (regardless of the particular syntax system used for regexps in a given language) is very much about syntax. And if you try to organize the content instead by the functions performed by different regexp constructs (syntax) or their combinations, then there are a zillion, conflicting possibilities. A given such "use" organization might be perfect for user U1 when looking for help with use case C1, but it won't be so great for user U2 or even for U1 when looking for help with a different use case. That's the trouble with use-case/task-oriented doc. Everyone thinks it's a great idea: "If I just had some doc that directly addressed this particular problem...". And it is a great idea as far as it goes. But in general it is not a good way to structure doc. A set of tasks/use cases is not easily structured in a useful way for users. Searching the doc can help, but that's about it. The Elisp manual is a combination of reference doc (what) with user-guide doc (how-to). Guide doc can usefully include task help. But guide doc necessarily supplements - stands on top of - reference doc; it's no substitute for it. And when it comes to regexp doc in the Elisp manual, we need solid reference doc, first and foremost. And the best organization for it in this case is in terms of regexp syntax. That doesn't mean that we can't _also_ have some guidance (how-to) doc, which directly addresses _using_ regexps: what you can (and can't) do with them, and examples of how to make best use of them in certain cases. (Just one opinion.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 03 16:31:44 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 May 2020 20:31:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58111 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVLH6-0000wD-4G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 16:31:44 -0400 Received: from ted.gofardesign.uk ([67.225.143.91]:41960) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVLGq-0000vn-M0 for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 16:31:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=marxist.se; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=mAedLVjCqQiTWzxRIYtjZBOFy9oeSm0jj3QFtyjtVfc=; b=rOo4dGSm993GnT+xGT+hqZggwY QY++eQsGQynRCoJbQKYpGgiEVMCRL78ct5KRjSXSJVkSuDydFlHwJ8II4x7XQLaY7VVCH+2z5DCQQ 7KfW/49LNzUBpgPPvy2Q3TZuE+HvHbt+4Hp1S0LFHG8r2H5NCBXbc+j1OI+NTxAcKW/ABw7dqob/q 00SZa3XzSu0uoos408Shs6dgF0x+oBLnlmXxbHRATwOEPM1kT/sG/lzP3sXeqtIq5+54INp+cWjU8 OEPXuxaTkDtI3P4NachdpZvflqHWi1gWecnQF7vuteJTSN+Vdktg5iB1L+tDjiQoETrpgF/qmU67s UnRhd//w==; Received: from h-4-70-69.a785.priv.bahnhof.se ([155.4.70.69]:54750 helo=localhost) by ted.gofardesign.uk with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1jVLGk-000mxZ-04; Sun, 03 May 2020 16:31:22 -0400 From: Stefan Kangas To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation In-Reply-To: <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 3 May 2020 13:08:14 -0700 (PDT)") References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Date: Sun, 03 May 2020 22:31:20 +0200 Message-ID: <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ted.gofardesign.uk X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - debbugs.gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - marxist.se X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: ted.gofardesign.uk: authenticated_id: stefan@marxist.se X-Authenticated-Sender: ted.gofardesign.uk: stefan@marxist.se X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , Richard Stallman , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, jan X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: >> The disposition of the regexp documentation could be improved, yes. >> Currently it's arranged by syntax, which is the implementor's view, >> rather than by function, which is the user's. > > FWIW, I disagree with that characterization. > > Especially when it comes to the doc for regexp > patterns, as a user I want it to be organized > according to syntax. A regexp (regardless of > the particular syntax system used for regexps > in a given language) is very much about syntax. For me, this is different. My background before ELisp was already having using regexps extensively in other languages, having read the "Mastering Regular Expressions" book, and so on. (I expect that this is fairly typical.) So I go to the "Regular Expressions" node, looking mostly for how to use them. But I find nothing on that there. I only find a review of what looks like everything I already knew about regular expressions. In the past, I did this: scratched my head, gave up and searched the web instead. And it left me thinking that it's weird that Emacs documentation on Regular Expression is so poor... I have since learned that the information I have been looking for is actually in a separate node, for some reason not sorting under "Regular Expressions", called "Regexp Search". This section is expertly written and exactly what I would have needed, only too bad I couldn't find it! :-) It definitely seems to me that there is room for improvement here. And I think it's more about the structure than content. --- BTW, while we're on it, it would be very handy to have an overview in the manual of the quirks of regexps in Emacs in comparison to other languages. Mastering Regular Expressions does a very good job here, as far as I recall. That plus a list of which functions to use would get me, when I first started out with ELisp, 99% of where I needed to be, I think. Just my 2 cents here. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 03 21:01:12 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2020 01:01:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58629 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVPTl-0006dP-H3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 21:01:12 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:58576) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVPTi-0006VK-30 for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 21:01:04 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0440wUPk145508; Mon, 4 May 2020 01:00:54 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=zrlx80ApF8mbu17KBBjN/mXt/gCudHgyyB+VixTSYRY=; b=YQBZy2AXkO20B8gQFWEOvz3J7i2qidUJN/K6wwEmTV5R1Y4Hprwkz/hIRNMjECwG+7P7 yCi050n035gyKI8LvbFypyII9lbrpDZRP1eFY/JiSs5Vq4ERo+6NP8qt6tq7fKG9BU1D H2WJtN5pwvBzoy72A8IZKW6wijpeRRqRdgkcXPFQc+gqO6xH/XQXHUMWg7zmJp4ul3rv CbQoyfQYHpu60xHv7bXLEX2Zu6h15GJQeDju1eSGVE0BZOMArQiE7tijdjo1jvl/rVP0 x8Qzx+VdVCoPmYsz4bSt/9XX6ymhHXCfZExNyhtfJjS3I4PXzWa04S2w6xq1A9Xi4sdH aA== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30s1gmv4em-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 04 May 2020 01:00:54 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0440uf4m149341; Mon, 4 May 2020 01:00:53 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30sjdpdhj3-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 04 May 2020 01:00:53 +0000 Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 04410nZl014728; Mon, 4 May 2020 01:00:49 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <76a4ceaa-7d50-489d-94a7-150ec14f3cd9@default> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 18:00:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Kangas Subject: RE: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> In-Reply-To: <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4993.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9610 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005040006 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9610 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005040006 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: =?iso-8859-1?B?TWF0dGlhcyBFbmdkZWflcmQ=?= , Richard Stallman , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, jan X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > >> The disposition of the regexp documentation could be improved, yes. > >> Currently it's arranged by syntax, which is the implementor's view, > >> rather than by function, which is the user's. > > > > FWIW, I disagree with that characterization. > > > > Especially when it comes to the doc for regexp > > patterns, as a user I want it to be organized > > according to syntax. A regexp (regardless of > > the particular syntax system used for regexps > > in a given language) is very much about syntax. >=20 > For me, this is different. My background before ELisp was already > having using regexps extensively in other languages, having read the > "Mastering Regular Expressions" book, and so on. (I expect that this > is fairly typical.) It's my case too, FWIW. So far "this is different" isn't. > So I go to the "Regular Expressions" node, looking mostly for how to > use them. But I find nothing on that there. I only find a review of > what looks like everything I already knew about regular expressions. Hm. Use of regexps is precisely what I'd have thought you had experience with before Elisp. What's particular about Elisp regexps is their syntax and the behavior of the regexp engine. (And those pecularities are, BTW, presented in "Mastering Regular Expressions", where different regexp dialects are compared.) > In the past, I did this: scratched my head, gave up and searched the > web instead. And it left me thinking that it's weird that Emacs > documentation on Regular Expression is so poor... Can you give an example (even artificial, if you don't recall) of some "use" of regexps that you might have wanted to find, and could not, in the manual. Or even just that you wanted to find (even if you found it). I think I'm probably not getting what you have in mind. > I have since learned that the information I have been looking for is > actually in a separate node, for some reason not sorting under > "Regular Expressions", called "Regexp Search". This section is > expertly written and exactly what I would have needed, only too bad I > couldn't find it! :-) Ah, I see. That's what you mean by using regexps. OK, makes sense. But that info, as you say, is there. It's just that you couldn't find it at first. You didn't care about the Elisp regexp syntax etc. You wanted to know how to use a regexp to match text. So the problem, I guess, was only that you had some difficulty finding that doc. Do you have an idea what the difficulty was? A guess: could it have been because that doc was represented as being about "searching" and you were looking for something about "matching"? Maybe the index could be improved, if it's something as simple as that. In addition, perhaps there could be a cross-reference to the doc you were really looking for (node `Regexp Search') from nodes `Regular Expressions' and `Regexp Functions'. Do you think that would help? (Note BTW that the menu in node `Searching and Matching' lists menu items `Regular Expressions' and `Regexp Search'.) > It definitely seems to me that there is room for improvement here. > And I think it's more about the structure than content. Got it. Think it over and see if you can come up with a suggested change. I'm thinking indexing and xrefs, but maybe something else is needed. Maybe the order of nodes `Regular Expressions' and `Regexp Search' should be switched: present how to use them, before diving deep down into the exact syntax. I think that might make sense. > BTW, while we're on it, it would be very handy to have an overview in > the manual of the quirks of regexps in Emacs in comparison to other > languages. Mastering Regular Expressions does a very good job here, > as far as I recall. That plus a list of which functions to use would > get me, when I first started out with ELisp, 99% of where I needed to > be, I think. That's just the comparison I mentioned above. I'd suggest that instead of reproducing something like that (which needs updating from time to time) in the manual, the manual just have an external link to such a comparison on the web. If that already exists then the updating might take care of itself. If not, then so be it. If the book is available as HTML, that could work. If not, and if there's no existing comparison, Someone(TM) could create it on EmacsWiki. Just a thought. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 03 23:10:48 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2020 03:10:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58721 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVRVI-0002SN-OI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 23:10:48 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33606) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVRVH-0002SB-TV for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 23:10:48 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:44273) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVRVC-0006fv-L7; Sun, 03 May 2020 23:10:42 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jVRV3-0008Fj-MZ; Sun, 03 May 2020 23:10:34 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Mattias =?iso-8859-1?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= In-Reply-To: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> (message from Mattias =?iso-8859-1?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= on Sun, 3 May 2020 15:07:39 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 03 May 2020 23:10:33 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: rtm443x@googlemail.com, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > The disposition of the regexp documentation could be improved, > yes. Currently it's arranged by syntax, which is the implementor's > view, rather than by function, which is the user's. Would you like to propose an ordering and classification by function? Then we could think about whether it is better. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 05:13:14 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2020 09:13:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58964 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVXA2-00037A-I4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 05:13:14 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f179.google.com ([209.85.215.179]:45895) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVXA1-00036w-MG for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 05:13:14 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f179.google.com with SMTP id s18so8202036pgl.12 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 04 May 2020 02:13:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bI1Bq6iont4vJvJSjNeGIPr54zuO7QEXVXe4/PuEAG8=; b=vYk9UeCPVrCx/jX7B47grVcskJAMTXB4S9PQuerigyOf9YXUbD/1b6tTpiz/HM+GR1 YsdoCXAmw/EA91iOR7yY3L1v470iu+IeqDt5j3RXyAJIxvbow73zR3w/BJDW44bj21tm v/aFtVquKc3WxtKr48MB/vyKv+ytw9fwe5qN6jg5ebYRGtOVcwP8zqp428MskLAUuwp2 kQuaaA+dV6hNeCMzq1SN/1yrwu6fozuk5qIYev8wv5T2GavkapQdv/GE0z0AHK7RdW+E Zf2PmihTpP64vszEoyfSuWtTM8DX+H7S/akeqS7JK0ghHx+qPGMnYOiyKkS0tMfAdXWD efJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bI1Bq6iont4vJvJSjNeGIPr54zuO7QEXVXe4/PuEAG8=; b=RjDMdXL1DBBN1UBZwafwtrdsXGPTHarRfqXg7JRqeCDLjUuV3m1BpfIS0A173FA/ZW cBq56+MmIyLDRzPjM/pWXktNcBRy0wuqLt9wxRoVLKzVF4k/cOn+UzN7Ou/Lt/Mz7acQ Ip3WnXA5/cLtqY1ICBkQMXyLvtz3I5fmXeEGCWmtp67Upf1lEPaFuxnr9F1gUPh5zaD+ x56YIa1HDp49/mM7C2XGNii5Meg3Cv/WeDztN0yRNUVJenY/Uv3aXVQV42VkA3cdzaG1 Ioz3xFukzDyikCSqco0apJXc7n+G4Iq27jAPTfiopExHPxqU6bOTwd0jxeziMAiIfzEo 9YMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYQ925C4mb/uAdtWlphs97HCWulkxS1OFCqAmWW/5AFXZ8Vvdwt KyH1Ubn5YHSPdE6lvrjb239sl0c8b4ViSzsh4xQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypI/3ZMBQchNSBNcqXrpbU6UEbHvtwvop8rWHerpl+d7CXmNoZy501U7WD4yUUn8QvuD7ateqe4VxZEuCIqeFsY= X-Received: by 2002:a63:1210:: with SMTP id h16mr15714774pgl.328.1588583587644; Mon, 04 May 2020 02:13:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9a86:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 4 May 2020 02:13:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> From: jan Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 10:13:06 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: =?UTF-8?B?TWF0dGlhcyBFbmdkZWfDg8KlcmQ=?= , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) Hi all, I'd like to push back here a little, to what I originally raised because it's simple. In my case I couldn't find ~50% of the regex docs. I only continued to hunt because I knew it was there. In the linked question I gave () the questioner had to be actually told of the other section in the manual. The problem is the information is split into sections but without visibility from one section that the other exists. Solution: that's up to you. I'd say simply make one long list instead of 2 shorter, but if not that then *make a clear link between them*. The fact that they're split by some historic classification is true, but not IMO important any more - all I want is the basic property of findability. Unify these 2 islands or show a clear bridge between them, anything that stops one being being marooned for lack of visibility. Stefan's experience indicates a third island, also unbridged if I read him right. Make the relationship between these semantically related places highly visible is all I'm suggesting. cheers jan On 04/05/2020, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > The disposition of the regexp documentation could be improved, > > yes. Currently it's arranged by syntax, which is the implementor's > > view, rather than by function, which is the user's. > > Would you like to propose an ordering and classification by function? > Then we could think about whether it is better. > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) > Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > > > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 22:56:49 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 02:56:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34410 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVnl4-0003vr-2F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 22:56:49 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52556) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVnl3-0003vd-9N for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 22:56:33 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45543) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVnkx-00079K-UT; Mon, 04 May 2020 22:56:27 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jVnkw-0006tS-7o; Mon, 04 May 2020 22:56:26 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: jan In-Reply-To: (message from jan on Mon, 4 May 2020 10:13:06 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 22:56:26 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] You've explained that the division of the regexp documentation caused a problem for you. I understand the kind of problem you describe, but I don't understand why the problem happened. You ask for these two nodes to be combined. * Regexps:: Syntax of regular expressions. * Regexp Backslash:: Regular expression constructs starting with ‘\’. What version of the Emacs Lisp Reference Manual were you looking at? From which Emacs version? The current master version has a subsection called Syntax of Regexps, which has these three subsubsections: * Regexp Special:: Special characters in regular expressions. * Char Classes:: Character classes used in regular expressions. * Regexp Backslash:: Backslash-sequences in regular expressions. Does this change in structure fix the problem? -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 04 22:56:52 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 02:56:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34413 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVnlJ-0003wI-5g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 22:56:52 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52756) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVnl4-0003vh-VC for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 22:56:35 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45544) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVnkz-0007EJ-6H; Mon, 04 May 2020 22:56:29 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jVnky-0006tz-9q; Mon, 04 May 2020 22:56:28 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> (message from Stefan Kangas on Sun, 03 May 2020 22:31:20 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 22:56:28 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > So I go to the "Regular Expressions" node, looking mostly for how to > use them. But I find nothing on that there. I only find a review of > what looks like everything I already knew about regular expressions. What I see in master is this structure. Is this different from what you saw? Does this structure eliminate the problem you had? @node Regular Expressions @section Regular Expressions @cindex regular expression @cindex regexp ... @menu * Syntax of Regexps:: Rules for writing regular expressions. * Regexp Example:: Illustrates regular expression syntax. @ifnottex * Rx Notation:: An alternative, structured regexp notation. @end ifnottex * Regexp Functions:: Functions for operating on regular expressions. @end menu -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 06:02:22 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 10:02:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34750 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVuP7-0007Ik-Nj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 06:02:22 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f45.google.com ([209.85.216.45]:34844) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVuP6-0007IX-Er for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 06:02:21 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f45.google.com with SMTP id ms17so832320pjb.0 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 05 May 2020 03:02:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2MR1tmHaKiID9vM5eZF54tNvp4vTi9M7wiYfNe6AtTg=; b=DME21G4+SJiVUdn6IzWaNMW7RA6JG2hlukTqHNc3ywsQ0YrTa/twQxLZp5CC48PFXC KS2EaVVuK6Cu8jzGG2bnY4PcVbpFDo1hR1RdtRZOPBu+JqREFHFmTLFS9jPg6l8M6Kx6 yFKYXp7Fz7N5hNyTEiMKEim23YOuYwkhiMvukRXgvMDsAL6cQE/94HRE6dB+t0BbxACM dgYsbXLN5UoyQ5VD9FYCOkiRL1t6qDj1kg1jBv+f5K5grbqKm8gYgflHX0T6qffqzmpS /DhJcAsXArALnmneO11KgvyqNQXwD57YvLXWtQmrUlEVoF+7QqTUVrjptsuyPGZ/T47y CRcg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2MR1tmHaKiID9vM5eZF54tNvp4vTi9M7wiYfNe6AtTg=; b=oQY0XRFzYoOYMEW+9h0pAyCVTaUNT2jm33sSvUke5Z/MkxJSjZ+nc8pPUy/tC62FE7 or3mjUjIcJ1wwVcBpqRKgnb4uj19Svc8JPFxTOP3BKWEgZ0TYeyqpDwM/iC8njjnVCJy OgITr5xVHplnPaao7V1TCsZ/owgjsoqceLJolm+2nAyJBXzVnk9lvmWySLE5mO0sB76J ZrGHZC867BpMryPdGKIzh+9PznZCnU+s+sioqELXmOQ4IcVBxMEGYIcr0Q9Wl2asGB6u a1mHTLzH+ZViP2N1UP/HrMpxnmF5TxHAGk8iPXddSUqpxI8nWj5tgW4EFz6bCBqbmuRe ppTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaJqDVz7+HNA6YivrJv/G0jFjAbIdegewTr+hYbF/JCGadT2d03 Ek51iHrS/kGvKib2talI+WeMBjei+OdBrcdLfvA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIYvwIMOTeAb2BACBGH1tSvQ6cHtjz/t4IKJeAvQsUTJmBZMeNdZxn75E7mtgHzw2oYMZ7Pml03x/rB4K19BDc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:718c:: with SMTP id i12mr2092883pjk.142.1588672934382; Tue, 05 May 2020 03:02:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9a86:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 5 May 2020 03:02:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> From: jan Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 11:02:13 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi, C-h C-a ('about emacs') gives the splash screen with GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2019-08-29 I'm using the online reference manual. From the menu: 'Search Documentation' submenu 'Look Up Subject In User Manual' minibuffer says: 'Subject to look up:' I enter: regexp RET I immediately get taken to the page "15.6 Syntax of Regular Expressions", directly into the node, *not* into the one level higher menu which would visibly show there are 2 regular expression nodes. I would guess this is a most people find it. cheers jan (but please see other reply on this thread which shows why I've been getting confused about what I'm seeing) On 05/05/2020, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > You've explained that the division of the regexp documentation caused > a problem for you. I understand the kind of problem you describe, > but I don't understand why the problem happened. > > You ask for these two nodes to be combined. > > * Regexps:: Syntax of regular expressions. > * Regexp Backslash:: Regular expression constructs starting wi= th > =E2=80=98\=E2=80=99. > > What version of the Emacs Lisp Reference Manual were > you looking at? From which Emacs version? > > The current master version has a subsection called > Syntax of Regexps, which has these three subsubsections: > > * Regexp Special:: Special characters in regular expressions. > * Char Classes:: Character classes used in regular expressions. > * Regexp Backslash:: Backslash-sequences in regular expressions. > > Does this change in structure fix the problem? > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) > Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > > > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 06:05:33 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 10:05:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34754 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVuSD-0007NV-9S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 06:05:33 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:39734) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jVuSB-0007NI-MZ for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 06:05:32 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f169.google.com with SMTP id s20so624975plp.6 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 05 May 2020 03:05:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=T1K2FuU2RYziDjAEMtgl+/ZxUShsQHP9o4uqJdfL1x4=; b=FBuwTo4zuGkTl96/jvFalJ00ehyTveC/FHkTVpf2q7oO5zy+iFSSfZQu6xTBvn36dX O05Ha5IQW7I6vMC7jy+lGseQG8b+AzVbAOkh3rAmnrG/oOragECh9J7PiCKaS05G+auu md8RSTZJfTg1misMcazU8caINHDvng6jg/TgIGrnxeSFvIPkxA4I2IzXPkJlDRWOFMIR lN0cz2fdXG3zxsfdsdyHBtcPsEF4s7Mp4PigxxXp3ohFdSZ3H12GyHTMsqSzwkksCam4 M/iQT/hETXi82Oavs3y9ud45kocybxIav6ih0193umwkeFQ6SMuvroXY9EgC9ZWr6RHZ i3Qg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=T1K2FuU2RYziDjAEMtgl+/ZxUShsQHP9o4uqJdfL1x4=; b=poo9EILoa1mlmthfZ1KOWMSlD8wghpGclJlLejUczIlEZAlY7I9jeSA8SlJjVRWijX 7TBVq7hETEVTGGzcWlrRdOL3PAeHfiaBbvIjKDEDNHsqFMf53O4JQyBjcSfjZ48leVmk NgRsdLrhOCpVdtkkEQKu2utY6MtaQjGmA17kDrmvT5OvfRw1kE8kzBfPe3j4dY8grXOq obioXhDGU4z18FHH/ObAlfGg6NGIL4BejxDHnImDVNQI1/ucTjkPp2iBa8ec4pV+5azl u4INjyGq69tmmPSVEz5SYQkZZl42U8s/pD2q64mpZxMIa7spE2+Jlb3vpScbRHb7OXJq W2lg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuY62Epp97gR1HTAWiCQcQd66UmBviRgZmXX09Bst1jZNnmZRp8s lqcaC+S05/p/cqnwpYKrvrvuumkOdEdw+U4ugUCGMA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJceH0QhH/Pn/EbV/FrybYyDTDlQva3nGbKDR4KIOfzM+TnzBQE5Bo5VtwRWXw6HrH2OZ3YUUPtxZYseoS46es= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:718c:: with SMTP id i12mr2112993pjk.142.1588673125854; Tue, 05 May 2020 03:05:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9a86:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 5 May 2020 03:05:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> From: jan Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 11:05:25 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, Stefan Kangas , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi all, I know this was addressed at Stephan but I'm getting increasingly puzzled by the difference between what other people are describing and what I'm seeing. In the other e-mail Mr Stallman said he could see this: * Regexp Special:: Special characters in regular expressions. * Char Classes:: Character classes used in regular expressions. * Regexp Backslash:: Backslash-sequences in regular expressions. My emacs (Windows, 26.3) shows * Regexp Search:: Search for match for a regexp. * Regexps:: Syntax of regular expressions. * Regexp Backslash:: Regular expression constructs starting with = =E2=80=98\=E2=80=99. * Regexp Example:: A complex regular expression explained. I started up my ubuntu machine and try to look in the manual to see if it was different from the windows, FYI I got "Info file emacs does not exist". OK... it finally twigged. I've just looked elsewhere. From the emacs menu: 'Search Documentation' submenu 'Look Up Subject In Elisp Manual' Enter: regexp RET Click 'Syntax Of Regexps' gets you to: "34.3.1 Syntax of Regular Expressions" which looks like what Mr Stallman has been describing and finally I can see what Eli has described: " =E2=80=98\{M,N\}=E2=80=99 is a more general postfix operator that specifies repetition with a minimum of M repeats and a maximum of N repeats. If M is omitted, the minimum is 0; if N is omitted, there is no maximum. For both forms, M and N, if specified, may be no larger than 2**15 - 1 . For example, =E2=80=98c[ad]\{1,2\}r=E2=80=99 matches the strings =E2= =80=98car=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98cdr=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98caar=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98cadr=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98cdar=E2=80=99= , and =E2=80=98cddr=E2=80=99, and nothing else. =E2=80=98\{0,1\}=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98\{,1\}=E2=80=99 is equivalent to= =E2=80=98?=E2=80=99. =E2=80=98\{0,\}=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98\{,\}=E2=80=99 is equivalent to = =E2=80=98*=E2=80=99. =E2=80=98\{1,\}=E2=80=99 is equivalent to =E2=80=98+=E2=80=99. " Now compare this to what's in the user manual (not the Elisp manual): " =E2=80=98\{N,M\}=E2=80=99 is a postfix operator specifying between N and M repetitions=E2=80=94t= hat is, the preceding regular expression must match at least N times, but no more than M times. If M is omitted, then there is no upper limit, but the preceding regular expression must match at least N times. =E2=80=98\{0,1\}=E2=80=99 is equivalent to =E2=80=98?=E2=80=99. =E2=80=98\{0,\}=E2=80=99 is equivalent to =E2=80=98*=E2=80=99. =E2=80=98\{1,\}=E2=80=99 is equivalent to =E2=80=98+=E2=80=99. " The user manual doesn't state that the {,x} syntax is valid where the Elisp manual does. thanks jan On 05/05/2020, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > So I go to the "Regular Expressions" node, looking mostly for how to > > use them. But I find nothing on that there. I only find a review of > > what looks like everything I already knew about regular expressions. > > What I see in master is this structure. > Is this different from what you saw? > Does this structure eliminate the problem you had? > > > @node Regular Expressions > @section Regular Expressions > @cindex regular expression > @cindex regexp > > ... > > @menu > * Syntax of Regexps:: Rules for writing regular expressions. > * Regexp Example:: Illustrates regular expression syntax. > @ifnottex > * Rx Notation:: An alternative, structured regexp notation. > @end ifnottex > * Regexp Functions:: Functions for operating on regular expression= s. > @end menu > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) > Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > > > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 12:51:49 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 16:51:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37235 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW0nN-0003no-34 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 12:51:49 -0400 Received: from mail1473c50.megamailservers.eu ([91.136.14.73]:59664 helo=mail102c50.megamailservers.eu) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW0nJ-0003nT-77 for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 12:51:48 -0400 X-Authenticated-User: mattiase@bredband.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=megamailservers.eu; s=maildub; t=1588697497; bh=pqNC2QC7fcNOB/QbHEtxtd5PP25H7o/TJBIG3BZwEQg=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=Wdgn5vvK7RICRrBZbNSdUeY84HnR9PS79OPdnZEsE4nwX+el3L4MJF04ueCopLz2Z +Fs0o34SYH8MfIvyOeqPBMLvk1pQLyaopP53gU5leklyjgjBZTW/FANuPZ8QKV/sSQ 0M2ViqZaVv1BvNMlBjeIxzgGCM6amSVak6c0pDOw= Feedback-ID: mattiase@acm.or Received: from stanniol.lan (c-4e4ae655.032-75-73746f71.bbcust.telenor.se [85.230.74.78]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail102c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id 045GpYO0026065; Tue, 5 May 2020 16:51:35 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 18:51:33 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6B60BB17-C561-44F1-84F7-D6280244A8DA@acm.org> References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> To: jan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A782F1D.5EB19952.0037, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CSC: 0 X-CHA: v=2.3 cv=S52nP7kP c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=klNLuyVZdLUgl+K5Uafb2A==:117 a=klNLuyVZdLUgl+K5Uafb2A==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=M51BFTxLslgA:10 a=mK_AVkanAAAA:8 a=A8KvJkJoB31LMuI1AHcA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=3gWm3jAn84ENXaBijsEo:22 X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas , rms@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) 5 maj 2020 kl. 12.05 skrev jan : > The user manual doesn't state that the {,x} syntax is valid where the > Elisp manual does. Sorry, I somehow got the impression that you referred to the Elisp = manual; I should have read your message more attentively. It looks like they both would benefit from some restructuring; having = "Regexp backslash" as a separate, parallel section doesn't make sense in = either. Note that omitting \{,N\} from the Emacs manual is no great sin, = because the user can just use \{0,N\} instead. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 13:12:59 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 17:12:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37254 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW17r-0005PO-L2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 13:12:59 -0400 Received: from mail238c50.megamailservers.eu ([91.136.10.248]:43604 helo=mail56c50.megamailservers.eu) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW17o-0005PD-6w for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 13:12:57 -0400 X-Authenticated-User: mattiase@bredband.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=megamailservers.eu; s=maildub; t=1588698774; bh=SthaW4BJQcLmw/96GvwUQB46oOEllApE8VLh3+fYEnM=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=YxSQu2tR7ZE2N5QJxNb3YtfOZyKygAAdyWP8G/h6Cmz5cEhXcvKLuFkdaKFnHVEde 04w+FSpB87Zn7Lg+Jwi6UjVGg3znVDPRQyCNvzL872khxtPMDHhgJk3IxgJO2QSo0c DkghA8TW96odzZhJumfWJcTgFTav2y/9OJoWDjAQ= Feedback-ID: mattiase@acm.or Received: from stanniol.lan (c-4e4ae655.032-75-73746f71.bbcust.telenor.se [85.230.74.78]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail56c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id 045HCo2u006605; Tue, 5 May 2020 17:12:52 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 19:12:50 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6F7830C9-FED5-4CE4-AAA3-45BFA0638F58@acm.org> References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> To: Richard Stallman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A782F23.5EB19E4D.009A, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CSC: 0 X-CHA: v=2.3 cv=UqsdyN4B c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=klNLuyVZdLUgl+K5Uafb2A==:117 a=klNLuyVZdLUgl+K5Uafb2A==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=M51BFTxLslgA:10 a=mDV3o1hIAAAA:8 a=cw1dDr3RA_JPMcSBKfQA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=_FVE-zBwftR9WsbkzFJk:22 X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: 4 maj 2020 kl. 05.10 skrev Richard Stallman : > Would you like to propose an ordering and classification by function? Start with the lexical details: special chars, escaping, literals. Then something like this: Content analysis details: (1.4 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: gnu.org] 1.0 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail) 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record 0.4 KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS Relay HELO differs from its IP's reverse DNS X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: jan , Stefan Kangas , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) 4 maj 2020 kl. 05.10 skrev Richard Stallman : > Would you like to propose an ordering and classification by function? Start with the lexical details: special chars, escaping, literals. Then something like this: * concatenation and alternative * repetition: * + ? etc * bracketing: \(?: ... \) * single-character expressions: [...] '.' \cX etc * zero-width assertions: ^ $ \< etc * capture groups and backrefs Aim for all in a single node, using subheadings as appropriate, as this = is what the user probably wants to see. Use subnodes for some in-depth = information such as named character classes. As Stefan pointed out, a section comparing the syntax with that of other = regexp implementations likely seen by the user would be very welcome. It = would permit the reader to make use of existing knowledge while reducing = mistakes coming from incorrect assumptions. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 13:41:08 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 17:41:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37307 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW1Yz-00068h-AH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 13:41:08 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41390) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW1Yi-000683-LR for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 13:40:59 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:59469) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jW1Yc-0001vU-Sz; Tue, 05 May 2020 13:40:38 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4888 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jW1YN-0007ep-UU; Tue, 05 May 2020 13:40:24 -0400 Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 20:40:03 +0300 Message-Id: <83tv0ul1qk.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= In-Reply-To: <6F7830C9-FED5-4CE4-AAA3-45BFA0638F58@acm.org> (message from Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= on Tue, 5 May 2020 19:12:50 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <6F7830C9-FED5-4CE4-AAA3-45BFA0638F58@acm.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: rtm443x@googlemail.com, stefan@marxist.se, rms@gnu.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Mattias Engdegård > Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 19:12:50 +0200 > Cc: jan , Stefan Kangas , > 41006@debbugs.gnu.org > > Aim for all in a single node, using subheadings as appropriate I usually prefer not to use subheadings, because Info doesn't have commands to go to a subheading. Can we make each subheading a subsubsection and give it a node? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 13:50:53 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 17:50:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37333 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW1iP-0006O8-7i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 13:50:53 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f180.google.com ([209.85.214.180]:45100) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW1iN-0006Nv-5L for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 13:50:43 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f180.google.com with SMTP id u22so1087836plq.12 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 05 May 2020 10:50:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LqSGqB1kLZ5zDlh+n6Kx8HDcS/CFhSy20PSwitTwbZE=; b=BodwJKine5Pp6xwswh+6hCQAsNostpcZmCbnYhCrZ+TN2QFrPO+WxgqsPhXsA2ew89 71ckpVTmtKCfl0upXFt/pb0AY2Q3CflDD+q6+9/efgPmXL3odvWC97LJbNscKPXKciKG gmLofaqo9HlovPkzWCPnlQu/WonF3JU3hf5f66bTkQhh3T+9EVRzh32IZZQ9JT9yqyzI zxHxIH3VVwZuN5ltDCjhHDG7NR8OGzmEjUGbHJwq1wWKDvuZr2SBKzUtssicde5UGqLv z4jX9lETfhC+c34mzlTT9ppYd3A7Z+1CYU0wksJndkOIEHzu9T4/cZnm8jK6Hhroc7IS tS+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LqSGqB1kLZ5zDlh+n6Kx8HDcS/CFhSy20PSwitTwbZE=; b=AB989JQjhnnL3C+TnpW6gGv3yAwAWorzovdOlP43An54c5g0FO2hzyDTuXpWiZtpx6 RRrYFT1S3o4kul8KX+yrHEbTthsZBH72SsdhGjZxbnRqbIOVfR2lkDeuCmNALjhZnY4m tuYBFxyyG05dGUJHWJg/UJpqs87ejBQmz1QRBrr2SFPvIhU8X3TXc79lQHe/f70yNnO0 9HbnvNl/uawgA9dr21jTI/JxtxPf1XxtxWNvdiNzKIXdGu/AZi6o60xWHm2bYWOD8Jmp Qkd6Qi7LPDG217cEQ1u+hNrcfR4d0d0xOD3cfrQT3EI4kf/Gc+lMfYfPzDVGfp5rlPwE /wjg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuY+MVxXmUjsyU6m4jY5KBEfDChdcHzHSDEhHkjKgtOek+clMkko 27OKjujl3DhOGrTxN0yxq1erGw+88HbO9KFVdgw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKgt0gV8YYBbrHdj6Qq6ymK3OrijHMBMO1jy1B5fWAcVMTFpPWtOpyTQEd8OX/Tglv0ig7CvUTP5ymtJYD5uG8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:a413:: with SMTP id p19mr4326196plq.1.1588701037154; Tue, 05 May 2020 10:50:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9a86:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 5 May 2020 10:50:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83tv0ul1qk.fsf@gnu.org> References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <6F7830C9-FED5-4CE4-AAA3-45BFA0638F58@acm.org> <83tv0ul1qk.fsf@gnu.org> From: jan Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 18:50:36 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , stefan@marxist.se, rms@gnu.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) I'd prefer to see a single longish page (it's still not that long I don't think, but purely a personal view). If you were to split it 1. how would it be split? 2. how would it be done to prevent the 'islands of information' effect that may be causing problems? In a sense that's my concern - one page or 5, just so long as a person can't get stranded on one. thanks jan On 05/05/2020, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Mattias Engdeg=C3=A5rd >> Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 19:12:50 +0200 >> Cc: jan , Stefan Kangas , >> 41006@debbugs.gnu.org >> >> Aim for all in a single node, using subheadings as appropriate > > I usually prefer not to use subheadings, because Info doesn't have > commands to go to a subheading. Can we make each subheading a > subsubsection and give it a node? > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 14:10:14 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 18:10:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37388 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW21G-0006uV-6a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 14:10:14 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-f171.google.com ([209.85.219.171]:45730) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW21E-0006uG-Cg for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 14:10:12 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f171.google.com with SMTP id r14so1728787ybm.12 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 05 May 2020 11:10:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PHZ5OIZfVJuzwSbuvwclgtEP3Twv1AHUXrqdW6/pL8U=; b=X4GjEdq/Yb7PBW5E5Amxl1DiewXrlwYEDrP1Lwoet6x795IEhmpmQXxAQDCuEtrPCD Ykxvf0hF+qL/97bTe/K5XtRgykbUg5WnqAUzX16ESkPlTwLzg+4mvkiapNLmLJepisA9 idvPpkj3imGjzIJbIHB3PoSzQmmXyKKdSt9YMR3Y5/7IjuFB3YbxyYGURhz7yyuLZVIc 9BtRcfxj6S/WClO1H2Vzl7PvShXpvccSAb71DDm8iP+Z/p+clxiezcZ5ZkbnoFz1IB8s xDklZsWUySC3PBKpP7EE+eBsOfHQWvZ/sMqwuVtQfUMvqa2kW8UqTGHFi8svFAGKA+SJ APOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZBOqb9uVmQInWH6J6M3KQmCb1xJ62CvUWDuL15FH6iCTg+0v9M Se3PcrgDbXtEu3Abkw8BM5BNe03Gh9xBuwVQ66c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypI3poIV42rHAmjoyjWQMSJH14GJpOXmmaXHDHpvzBH+PZrjasz3WSFYP9vOwDlNtPupAd88Jjwvp70sDvM8kPE= X-Received: by 2002:a25:fc08:: with SMTP id v8mr6934432ybd.389.1588702207022; Tue, 05 May 2020 11:10:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <6F7830C9-FED5-4CE4-AAA3-45BFA0638F58@acm.org> <83tv0ul1qk.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83tv0ul1qk.fsf@gnu.org> From: Stefan Kangas Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 20:09:55 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , Richard Stallman , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > I usually prefer not to use subheadings, because Info doesn't have > commands to go to a subheading. Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, but is there any reason not to add such a command? Would it be hard to do so? Just a thought. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 14:21:18 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 18:21:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37414 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW2By-0007Ck-EP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 14:21:18 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-f174.google.com ([209.85.219.174]:45369) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW2Bw-0007CU-HX for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 14:21:16 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f174.google.com with SMTP id r14so1747912ybm.12 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 05 May 2020 11:21:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=z/lF3PrqBUkpiEs28dSW/Y9GFa0rW5PIx7wMP+gYi8E=; b=sB/QWIvBUjmGSStT+xsGqP/eel4JxFTmPG5Uxo/1fRvN0VXbuSnnvKho7IlEYO4DoI /UeDRjWveO49zQ9MroxO0zeRHvlaJD3c2AbfNr5/zCB+JOVAqP5aGqg/1aHBSwkd9gsK TV/GOcHBIrYOhRbtK+Z3hl1u4rHP4eayf+YI78xemnq/MiIYavUpVay1S6j9F4q2TvWP OJOuvyaJF1LWuvAC7JG4y2FoFIU3qg3zCl4/e/t59vxdTh+RmA8lkZxZEcmEt8jEZJsn jhASL8UP2Ujm+itbo+llJjelTb7OmxgVw1AzIXZu9OnhUC5CzqkblFEmOsb2ryU2VZv+ GNcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZapyCKlD++4bJKLprzmXxyNL+RhTBUwwnz+cW52jFPdzSZ8cJh CJGRpDk7DUE7y8cZeVV2gGo83d3oV8/MVuQbgkE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIvg8XotDC6m07iF1d1pE+ql39bqm33gg2LmgcR5WpcLBeQbry2XNbGLnc1pCU5bY1I9RzLdY9nrA8OTWpt08E= X-Received: by 2002:a5b:9d1:: with SMTP id y17mr6834688ybq.129.1588702871055; Tue, 05 May 2020 11:21:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> In-Reply-To: From: Stefan Kangas Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 20:20:59 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: Richard Stallman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams , rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Richard Stallman writes: > What I see in master is this structure. > Is this different from what you saw? > Does this structure eliminate the problem you had? I'm also looking at master. Let me be more specific. > @menu > * Syntax of Regexps:: Rules for writing regular expressions. > * Regexp Example:: Illustrates regular expression syntax. > @ifnottex > * Rx Notation:: An alternative, structured regexp notation. > @end ifnottex > * Regexp Functions:: Functions for operating on regular expressions. > @end menu The above is the problem, for me: it does not include "Regexp Search". This is where I find any function to actually use the regexps I learn to construct here. If I go up one node, to (elisp) Searching and Matching, I can see: * Regular Expressions:: Describing classes of strings. * Regexp Search:: Searching for a match for a regexp. So I suggest to move "Regexp Search" so that it is a section under "Regular Expressions" (instead of parallel to it). Maybe conceptually this is not as clean, but it is more pedagogical and user-friendly, IMHO. I would also suggest to place "Regexp Search" first, even before "Syntax of Regexps", but this is just my personal preference and less important. It should at least, from my point of view, come before "Rx Notation". While we're at it, I also think "Regexp Search" could state, at the top, how to access match data. This is a bit hard to find, IME. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 14:23:49 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 18:23:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37418 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW2EO-0007HI-SL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 14:23:49 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49416) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW2EN-0007H1-It for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 14:23:48 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:60458) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jW2EI-00018Q-4u; Tue, 05 May 2020 14:23:42 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3525 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jW2E9-0005Mu-Nh; Tue, 05 May 2020 14:23:35 -0400 Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 21:23:14 +0300 Message-Id: <83sggekzql.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Tue, 5 May 2020 20:09:55 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <6F7830C9-FED5-4CE4-AAA3-45BFA0638F58@acm.org> <83tv0ul1qk.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, rms@gnu.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 20:09:55 +0200 > Cc: Mattias Engdegård , > Richard Stallman , rtm443x@googlemail.com, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org > > > I usually prefer not to use subheadings, because Info doesn't have > > commands to go to a subheading. > > Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, but is there any reason not to > add such a command? Would it be hard to do so? Just a thought. Maybe not hard, but I think this needs to be negotiated with the Texinfo maintainers, since Emacs is not the only Info reader out there. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 14:40:51 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 18:40:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37432 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW2Us-0007iU-Qt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 14:40:51 -0400 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:60788) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW2Uq-0007i9-Dg for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 14:40:49 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 045IXcCt104739; Tue, 5 May 2020 18:40:39 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=HUPYdNhuJg7fA+J2veGICy/Ygi0454B38q/DgKO8WOQ=; b=kNOMJb278yMsaBr5X9Txtot+O1MON9T3u2FyfmrTczf5h2UXgNiyF5q6beYGvZ19ReZQ FKri7FPGGFboq0oM2g4oq3WxSY/vjK55GdD/EE+Pkr9KJvES/trz9Q0yyfYJ4bR0f39y fQg9DeRrEiJxHr6l5IAukbNXWfLF+eNoCIU3CVXZFGJzjdmtggYMhjgonTt7o7/WK0li cog5GypZEZmlGyiU4oZXLah0V9gP1UvQjj6hRX9WIAvjOzYi9R5zVADBAu/tDweOUnsz u94EcZbGXGAmNenNFV2kDhOosdRq+wjaKawnR77yH2nY+7ZZXOQOnbVExHWipmV0rZ+2 7w== Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30s09r6gwg-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 05 May 2020 18:40:39 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 045IagCA062360; Tue, 5 May 2020 18:40:38 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30sjk09w98-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 05 May 2020 18:40:38 +0000 Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 045IebiI018381; Tue, 5 May 2020 18:40:37 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <032f1835-d4ca-47c7-a8bb-3f4628a820a8@default> Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 11:40:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Kangas , Richard Stallman Subject: RE: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4993.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9612 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=876 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005050140 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9612 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1015 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=909 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005050140 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: =?utf-8?B?TWF0dGlhcyBFbmdkZWfDpXJk?= , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > If I go up one node, to (elisp) Searching and Matching, I can see: >=20 > * Regular Expressions:: Describing classes of strings. > * Regexp Search:: Searching for a match for a regexp. >=20 > So I suggest to move "Regexp Search" so that it is a section under > "Regular Expressions" (instead of parallel to it). Maybe conceptually > this is not as clean, but it is more pedagogical and user-friendly, > IMHO. >=20 > I would also suggest to place "Regexp Search" first, even before > "Syntax of Regexps", but this is just my personal preference and less > important. It should at least, from my point of view, come before "Rx > Notation". I think `Regexp Search' belongs under `Searching and Matching'. But I think `Regexp Search' should come before `Regular Expressions'. And maybe `POSIX Regexps' and `Standard Regexps' should be under `Regular Expressions'. IOW, separate using regexps (searching and matching) from details about what regexps are and what their syntax is. We can present how to use them without requiring much knowledge of what they are. And of course we should have xrefs between the doc about what they are and the doc about using them. (Probably there are already some such.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 15:04:33 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 19:04:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37512 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW2rp-00022B-9s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 15:04:33 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-f170.google.com ([209.85.219.170]:42185) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW2rn-00021e-SM for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 15:04:32 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f170.google.com with SMTP id i16so1828640ybq.9 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 05 May 2020 12:04:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=i+bKqqj9cX/iP2hrDlTLUHLESbev7LAie2oewHL1glo=; b=TI/q76qgYay/+wJrOpZaFbDFEhDPbsvY57HCrA7qKEUv28yC5vcpecJBiI8kUBkEc1 HpLEqlPofpzj5jXHyR/ePAOX2B3dM/3bYl/hpRQVNLXg9Px0WGs/9tggTD+NJMr2EAsv f6mhpDyD56p4+wEIzV7ipNTWLV3XQ9Aregf3JZzIU41vt2G3lW/wdxGg1kpY/ch8gate 3kD0H+E+xTf4sKRW2SEu3fe4C5RHz76sx9u5PBPn91NpLDn9+0gADMjDuO++Je2kJV8e Lzqi1ihvN4qUdq9exPybuL626aXZPKuAbTV8+hIxlc7g91WV/hpSkl9KtSQUKaiVQVQs S6Iw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYyvr80ZochQzlCn+V+Y3fieGrItxGkkeMdS/shnrq7qtAaC1vU dNA66vNTyAQHvUixK6el2ak/KeapHYOvBF03f0I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypK8iZ77vaRUVELU7nSptjLPFkerFaT9ipS9FNbWA2vfMpKWWoOIGNDcvC2m6z1fM55wCFCSn3oBKLBSSh7MB0g= X-Received: by 2002:a25:c646:: with SMTP id k67mr7145841ybf.309.1588705466365; Tue, 05 May 2020 12:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 5 May 2020 15:04:25 -0400 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <032f1835-d4ca-47c7-a8bb-3f4628a820a8@default> References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <032f1835-d4ca-47c7-a8bb-3f4628a820a8@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 15:04:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: RE: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: Drew Adams , Richard Stallman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Drew Adams writes: > IOW, separate using regexps (searching and matching) > from details about what regexps are and what their > syntax is. This is the exact opposite of what I proposed, I think. I argued that keeping them together would be more user-friendly and pedagogical. Could you expand on why keeping them separate is better, in your opinion? Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 15:42:24 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 19:42:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37623 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW3SS-00058f-H5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 15:42:24 -0400 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:56732) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW3SQ-00058Q-2A for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 15:42:22 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 045JbbrC015117; Tue, 5 May 2020 19:42:11 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=yXUBq8rEy9aRQK+gDDe5Om6jHffz/ihtQ1iDnh57/5o=; b=YhikCmMjcvgt1k844rJGVqTvVH82ZbA8+gtx9oLlEQqXpJPyrmlF8rdbPXvOhTJKZkJB XLJSBkh0YQkMdpVeO29mmRHTFCwh3W/Ca4lE4d8i0pGGsVGzmZkFDdOhJhc1WVd3ehmu J/DNTHEmdGytBlc2eEZRik/MGPApXY+X+RjwnwTk5geiOJfUk4DUX15bmJh2BxcwEKAx TyzL/VY12nbbLrHTq1E1wvpgvwbNfaqhs8y1OqKnkntH4Q6AS3aduzFimkbpatcIBwZ3 He4iugPo4mNu/cCjhOCAO6R6SOiPoSMwzbPv0o8LIBqY2wLiZMaGRnscZ+m/+TN6KkIf yA== Received: from userp3030.oracle.com (userp3030.oracle.com [156.151.31.80]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30s09r6sp3-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 05 May 2020 19:42:11 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 045Jfk3K181198; Tue, 5 May 2020 19:42:11 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30t1r5tggj-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 05 May 2020 19:42:11 +0000 Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 045Jg9NZ011759; Tue, 5 May 2020 19:42:09 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3dba033f-a48b-444c-bf9c-8d31c6b41852@default> Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 12:42:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Kangas , Richard Stallman Subject: RE: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <032f1835-d4ca-47c7-a8bb-3f4628a820a8@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4993.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9612 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=903 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005050150 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9612 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=957 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005050149 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: =?utf-8?B?TWF0dGlhcyBFbmdkZWfDpXJk?= , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > IOW, separate using regexps (searching and matching) > > from details about what regexps are and what their > > syntax is. >=20 > This is the exact opposite of what I proposed, I think. >=20 > I argued that keeping them together would be more user-friendly and > pedagogical. Could you expand on why keeping them separate is better, > in your opinion? It's not so much about separating them physically. 1. Let users who happen to read the manual consecutively learn about _using_ regexps before delving into the detailed reference info about what they are - their syntax, etc. Which was the problem reported: you were looking for info about how to _use_ regexps, having prior knowledge about what regexps are and what, in general, their syntax is. Info about _use_ before reference info about _what_ they are. That's possible, and probably more helpful. But yes, the order between "use" (search & match) and "what" isn't all that important, especially since each is itself a big topic with multiple subtopics. The main thing is grouping like with like, "together" - #2 (next). 2. Group all of the what-they-are info together. POSIX etc. belongs with the reference info about regexp syntax etc. 3. Now, as to "together" in terms of getting use info if you happen to be (e.g. to land) in what land: xrefs. And vice versa: getting to what they are from the info about using them - xrefs. 4. Putting all together physically, in one giant node, is not feasible (especially if you include all the other nodes about "what"). And it's not helpful. Just one opinion. If you disagree, fine. But go back to your original problem. You were looking for info about how to _use_ regexps in Elisp. And you instead landed in the bowels of _what_ they are, including syntax details etc. The solution for that is (a) better or additional indexing, and (b) possibly changing the order (organization). My suggestion here was for (b): put all the "what they are" info together, and put it under the top of the "what": `Regular Expressions', not directly under searching and matching. Caveat: I haven't looked into details of what moving this stuff around would really give. My suggestion is to take a look and see whether it makes sense, in particular for your use case. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 17:23:22 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 21:23:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37735 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW529-0001RB-QU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 17:23:21 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-f179.google.com ([209.85.219.179]:44094) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW527-0001Qq-RO for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 17:23:20 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f179.google.com with SMTP id t17so285088ybk.11 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 05 May 2020 14:23:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ph+HUlY8aTK2VQ7LILxpRpGhbams6EvmSwm2svhSJHM=; b=WRmJnufTsPRPzyGueuraWoLRjCAbj+A0uwK7fbnJxOwQuxxWMOU7RfKE0/zsIsO1pq 2xlODzolwSkvd4dvFlnJRZ19UZ6jGIZioaruQtAwz8yANPQgjcOVWWmsDr6XBJ1bLHtU SZGJ/PaIQLp2LspLEi22AgoIT+IRUWUsPZn7T/Sz+XgsHJgbSMYY3KrMQhNoROaUMdYk OygG6kkBjhmu8EKlud0cmuKk+SJIR5wf22a8XBCdH3TIQWCzV+TXp8lzrUtvOduj0OEo /aHk56CPdzxCtQhrXvyBfDPUhv07YH5mfbfbMjXvz9b4feEya4axu3X8jxS6G1iCNjcZ 5LDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYme8zfikhDyfMn2Gp8qErjYfHkMYYFWgja/dS1sWEHADSmdvix v3d7TFyw+2kypb+/jkciNLarPCLkNVvAl3S/DZU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIm4vdxsrTbsTbEXgwzX6ou1+2mg5EzZiY2F4aRnBMrf1ZiqvIuB9omCCsDUQjJ/2a+lZDy4hrbZXp0PomF+Ao= X-Received: by 2002:a25:5c4:: with SMTP id 187mr8444921ybf.181.1588713793040; Tue, 05 May 2020 14:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 5 May 2020 17:23:12 -0400 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <3dba033f-a48b-444c-bf9c-8d31c6b41852@default> References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <032f1835-d4ca-47c7-a8bb-3f4628a820a8@default> <3dba033f-a48b-444c-bf9c-8d31c6b41852@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 17:23:12 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: RE: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: Drew Adams , Richard Stallman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Drew Adams writes: > 1. Let users who happen to read the manual > consecutively learn about _using_ regexps before > delving into the detailed reference info about > what they are - their syntax, etc. Thanks for explaining. My suggestion was simply to have it all under one node: "Regular Expressions". The idea being that when you go there, you probably also want to know how to use them. The same goes for the index, IMHO. But that's just how I imagine the manual could be improved. > 4. Putting all together physically, in one giant > node, is not feasible (especially if you include > all the other nodes about "what"). And it's not > helpful. Agreed, my idea was to have them as subnodes. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 05 17:42:39 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2020 21:42:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37799 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW5Kp-00025Y-7Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 17:42:39 -0400 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:42842) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jW5Ko-00025N-59 for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 17:42:38 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 045LcAoi024968; Tue, 5 May 2020 21:42:31 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=zHlnZlqaoxKMDHXeJNA0eRT0LskAV6OuIPhV/mxNrfE=; b=VN7ErGr4NJ7QEgx/sBBZ16WKb8ddWNhNhq0ogReJAIJnXe9LD/xVLspbuNkSl3XuDmSz /jSV2E/+fYvukNYgSvaGKIQNsxakz8c/pJqroPABUFCZBFaIAqqBo+9/jCexIcx4IcvM pJwYgSIdoJxHV67UufGD/j4c69b8P3UD2zDLgcPfZk3Yw6k7ldMDEHfk35ebssxJ9bCj som0PNFM57pwPkU9iOcNntwNPoxvn5p400eLg0aWkeuYQXYA7u10YUAb86WwNmY9mZRw QyYLCsOtFlm1lqILXkskkdJo18/izV10ms9KkwIB7BPKeGlC4wYTyRkrCgCPEwypFHz0 oQ== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30s09r7923-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 05 May 2020 21:42:31 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 045LbPFr156983; Tue, 5 May 2020 21:42:30 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30sjnfv98j-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 05 May 2020 21:42:30 +0000 Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 045LgSvm016210; Tue, 5 May 2020 21:42:28 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <481d95db-c770-4c03-a7ae-bd5ee154a614@default> Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 14:37:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Kangas , Richard Stallman Subject: RE: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <032f1835-d4ca-47c7-a8bb-3f4628a820a8@default> <3dba033f-a48b-444c-bf9c-8d31c6b41852@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4993.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9612 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=702 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005050166 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9612 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1015 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=756 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005050166 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: =?utf-8?B?TWF0dGlhcyBFbmdkZWfDpXJk?= , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > 1. Let users who happen to read the manual > > consecutively learn about _using_ regexps before > > delving into the detailed reference info about > > what they are - their syntax, etc. >=20 > Thanks for explaining. My suggestion was simply to have it all under > one node: "Regular Expressions". The idea being that when you go > there, you probably also want to know how to use them. >=20 > The same goes for the index, IMHO. But that's just how I imagine the > manual could be improved. That's OK too. It was your problem - you had difficulty finding the kind of info you were looking for - so the solution that appeals to you most is likely the best one, at least for addressing that particular problem. In that case, in the section an search there'd need to be some mention the ability to do regexp search, and xrefs to the relevant "use" sections of the regexp doc. My own view favors "Every Page Is Page One" https://everypageispageone.com/the-book/ Readers will arrive at a given part of the doc any which way. (In general, for doc on the web they arrive from a search-engine search.) With that perspective, _the_ most important thing is to have rich, rich, rich linking among related topics. Very few of us will sit down and read a manual, or even a chunk of it, in order, from beginning to end. That's not an argument that order/structure doesn't matter. It's just an argument for good linking among related parts. > > 4. Putting all together physically, in one giant > > node, is not feasible (especially if you include > > all the other nodes about "what"). And it's not > > helpful. >=20 > Agreed, my idea was to have them as subnodes. OK by me. Go for it, if it's OK'd. But please be sure that the resulting search section still ends up useful when deprived of the regexp-search stuff. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 06 22:41:00 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2020 02:41:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41663 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWT5-0006GE-Pu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:41:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56224) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWT4-0006G0-Ik for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:40:58 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:41724) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWSz-0000xG-5N; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:40:53 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWSy-0001so-10; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:40:52 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Tue, 5 May 2020 17:23:12 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <032f1835-d4ca-47c7-a8bb-3f4628a820a8@default> <3dba033f-a48b-444c-bf9c-8d31c6b41852@default> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 22:40:52 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Thanks for explaining. My suggestion was simply to have it all under > one node: "Regular Expressions". The idea being that when you go > there, you probably also want to know how to use them. The problem with a long node is that, when something links to that node, it is not easy to find what the pertinent text in that node. For example, if the text about re-search-forward is in a large node, the link from the index will point to the start of the node. It will be a hassle to find that text in the node. Therefore we subdivide nodes when they are inconveniently long. Having a parent node with a number of subnodes is the way we handle this. The Lisp Manual already seems to be set up that way. Do you think a change is needed there? It looks like the Emacs Manual could use a small reorganization to a similar structure. Would you like to propose a patch? -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 06 22:41:52 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2020 02:41:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41667 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWTw-0006I3-3y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:41:52 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56480) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWTv-0006Ho-25 for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:41:51 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:41747) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWTp-0002RK-Iz; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:41:45 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWTo-00020x-OS; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:41:44 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: <032f1835-d4ca-47c7-a8bb-3f4628a820a8@default> (message from Drew Adams on Tue, 5 May 2020 11:40:36 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <032f1835-d4ca-47c7-a8bb-3f4628a820a8@default> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 22:41:44 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, stefan@marxist.se, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > But I think `Regexp Search' should come before > `Regular Expressions'. To me, what a regular expression consists of is logically prior to how to search for one. You can't search for one unless you can write one. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 06 22:42:00 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2020 02:42:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41671 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWU4-0006IT-C1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:42:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56532) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWU2-0006ID-W4 for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:41:59 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:41751) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWTx-0002V9-Lm; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:41:53 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWTw-00021V-Qx; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:41:53 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Tue, 5 May 2020 20:20:59 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 22:41:52 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > While we're at it, I also think "Regexp Search" could state, at the > top, how to access match data. This is a bit hard to find, IME. How about proposing a patch to point at that? -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 06 22:42:09 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2020 02:42:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41675 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWUD-0006JK-Jt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:42:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56512) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWU1-0006IB-O2 for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:42:08 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:41750) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWTw-0002Uy-Ep; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:41:52 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWTv-00021N-Jp; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:41:51 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Tue, 5 May 2020 20:20:59 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 22:41:51 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > If I go up one node, to (elisp) Searching and Matching, I can see: > * Regular Expressions:: Describing classes of strings. > * Regexp Search:: Searching for a match for a regexp. > So I suggest to move "Regexp Search" so that it is a section under > "Regular Expressions" (instead of parallel to it). It seems to me that the syntax of regular expressions and how to do things with regular expressions ought to be two parallel topics. If this needs to be clarified, rather than making one a subnode of the other, could we make some OTHER change that would do the job? -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 06 22:42:48 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2020 02:42:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41678 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWUq-0006KZ-0W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:42:48 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56950) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWUo-0006KM-HT for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:42:46 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:41787) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWUj-0004jK-7I; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:42:41 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jWWUg-0002Bh-OO; Wed, 06 May 2020 22:42:39 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Mattias =?iso-8859-1?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= In-Reply-To: <6F7830C9-FED5-4CE4-AAA3-45BFA0638F58@acm.org> (message from Mattias =?iso-8859-1?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= on Tue, 5 May 2020 19:12:50 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <6F7830C9-FED5-4CE4-AAA3-45BFA0638F58@acm.org> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 22:42:38 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: rtm443x@googlemail.com, stefan@marxist.se, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > * concatenation and alternative > * repetition: * + ? etc > * bracketing: \(?: ... \) > * single-character expressions: [...] '.' \cX etc > * zero-width assertions: ^ $ \< etc > * capture groups and backrefs That list could be a starting point. (What is a "capture group"? I have no idea.) However, I don't think alternatives are very useful without brackets, so brackets should come before alternatives. I think single-character expressions should come before repetition, because the former are more basic and conceptually simpler. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 06 23:17:25 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2020 03:17:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41685 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWX2L-0007FF-My for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 23:17:25 -0400 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:43054) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWX2K-0007F2-7x for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 23:17:24 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0473Dxeu097683; Thu, 7 May 2020 03:17:16 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=LVvveBMZuEZVAuuPWL29Ap7pYX6Qd9OI630l3jGZdqI=; b=lE3wO+AkWr30zvtPYjcktAvQe9Y88ghoJd0rnvsYlym6fbrnqZrK2DSnC1kFpMUhbd2T vbkbOhSU9mZrc28GUMRay4BYauYZljvSDRfWZBnKbT9pcRrzSg0KjRnv3ptVc1/1wLb4 HeSHfV0Uk0imrCnPmHEiesYdrb+YQuTljDERpbbj9nx2MGvVD57cladSgBLP6/bx2fYf enlLaImOad7B9D+zMdFf+2yLBXfFm/RC792SZwcqzB32VJlpdmvPgxhX0OKZDZ3vxYzO MxP+Qpu0Z8OcCVyoXlzxJzFDGinpUJhb8AidkBe6SU5kvn4DZ3chcFCk41ONIOfuwsob Cw== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30s09rdsyv-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 07 May 2020 03:17:16 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0473BUaM177916; Thu, 7 May 2020 03:17:15 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30sjnmp6kv-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 07 May 2020 03:17:15 +0000 Received: from abhmp0012.oracle.com (abhmp0012.oracle.com [141.146.116.18]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 0473HCoV012726; Thu, 7 May 2020 03:17:12 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 20:17:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: rms@gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <032f1835-d4ca-47c7-a8bb-3f4628a820a8@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4993.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9613 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=818 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=1 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005070022 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9613 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1015 suspectscore=1 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=845 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005070022 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, stefan@marxist.se, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > But I think `Regexp Search' should come before > > `Regular Expressions'. >=20 > To me, what a regular expression consists of > is logically prior to how to search for one. > You can't search for one > unless you can write one. I also said (in a different msg): Info about _use_ before reference info about _what_ they are. That's possible, and probably more helpful. and But yes, the order between "use" (search & match) and "what" isn't all that important, especially since each is itself a big topic with multiple subtopics. The main thing is grouping like with like, "together" Logically, as you say, in-depth/practical use of regexps to search/match requires understanding regexps, including soem details of their syntax and behavior. It doesn't follow that general use of regexps to search/match ("how") can't usefully be introduced before the full "what". You saw quite a lot about the use of a car before you had any good knowledge of the relations of its parts, how it and they function, or the details of how to drive. To really know how to drive, yes, you need to know something about the relations among engine, brakes, lights, signals, etc. But to get the overall picture of how to drive, no - you mainly need to know what a car is for, and have some experience of seeing a car driven. Anyway, I have no druthers here. I was trying to help with Stefan K's problem: he was _looking_ for how-to-use regexps, he already had knowledge about regexps (from other languages), and when trying to find the how-to-use info he was plunged into the what-regexps-are info, which he didn't care about (at that point). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 06 23:18:29 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2020 03:18:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41690 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWX3N-0007H2-1P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 23:18:29 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:60376) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWX3K-0007Gn-UK for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 23:18:27 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0473Hvc5136534; Thu, 7 May 2020 03:18:19 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=feQArDbmrPHfX53PXCu/MXJStJgPInAsiO18yxdhZ2A=; b=uwQV0CrTlDlny5q80y8/QxuXYAuKThZ1R6ly4L8l9EpIyXjiRWtA5YonrysIte5O+Cv8 PpEAu1MooYLI5Cwh/gcvwzVoD0OYCiH9fNdajh7q3/vFiIpXbEOiWrXzzfVb60Tq9/s1 xOiy4MAvAaa4VtPC1oxNpE2nyzDPW2w6Rr6GtTSJFtMa2iMFj4tg0cChU6qP+fSNx0QE RfAjOIMaL0Zj/CI7AntjlTBKsDi7jTB3FjWY26ClehCnUC1R2EyZAjATMBZHfEs1To4o PULPmm5DY03pRt93eqduOSQq4sObLJxVCYpd9MB1PqR/DlxbJ6cB8OZq9q3cGd+//aoc Rg== Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30s1gndka1-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 07 May 2020 03:18:19 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0473GerC105398; Thu, 7 May 2020 03:18:19 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30us7pbmrs-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 07 May 2020 03:18:19 +0000 Received: from abhmp0012.oracle.com (abhmp0012.oracle.com [141.146.116.18]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 0473IImF014365; Thu, 7 May 2020 03:18:18 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <8077f9bd-c830-440e-86cd-e6619bf560ec@default> Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 20:18:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: rms@gnu.org, Stefan Kangas Subject: RE: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4993.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9613 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=780 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005070023 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9613 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=841 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005070023 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > So I suggest to move "Regexp Search" so that it is a section under > > "Regular Expressions" (instead of parallel to it). >=20 > It seems to me that the syntax of regular expressions and how to do > things with regular expressions ought to be two parallel topics. I agree, FWIW. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 07 06:31:39 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2020 10:31:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42147 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWdoZ-0006JH-AL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 06:31:39 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-f176.google.com ([209.85.219.176]:45600) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWdoX-0006Iu-De for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 06:31:37 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f176.google.com with SMTP id r14so2654503ybm.12 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 07 May 2020 03:31:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RH1JNlfHHwXjkOnKPATrPQTeKIyW7F/SFk/XJi4DrWw=; b=ZB90zNBOFIfRx9FSOFR6IuKCpnP6a+v553mob2jR8qo5ozetc8iLzUDxr8MeKS5NhX hELy9qEjkaf310vcoUodeP1q7OOcJHtpZAnLj384vxinF4D+ajcETdrleCCqR+eaUYBf q6UBQuoealo97f6si7esY8VoZ65Pdhcc/CxU49K7WH5DkLIBVYT8byKyqEzf7H0yxeL/ pVPZVDv5mJLfEzrdt7SpP55dda6azTm7I2WambNhx2SrX1ok8F2xi93pjJ0mzumZpUA6 3p1laxdPV33YPMArLeyxUQeceMZTUgZbwZ16595iHZXSta3ECNxCc0S2QBdL5JAc4enJ pjTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYiEvTBAhJNs8GSyy1NeFUn7GMMeBaJzKprDugE93zvSi/ga3Vt ZTTww0OSAFxAZFJN4aXPMmbccWUlp7lh4Uf8ZOQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKUPtKt4OYmbgOxbyidmPtg84qxUvVrsen5VbjPdSKUCYV2b8wDz/SbsrXO1Jx7ljbSxfbdWOp0twf2E0kotJc= X-Received: by 2002:a25:4c04:: with SMTP id z4mr15449676yba.466.1588847491912; Thu, 07 May 2020 03:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 7 May 2020 06:31:31 -0400 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <032f1835-d4ca-47c7-a8bb-3f4628a820a8@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 06:31:31 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: rms@gnu.org, Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Richard Stallman writes: > > But I think `Regexp Search' should come before > > `Regular Expressions'. > > To me, what a regular expression consists of > is logically prior to how to search for one. > You can't search for one > unless you can write one. Having thought about this a bit more, I think you're right. The most important question to me is why the "Regular Expressions" chapter does not include documentation on how to use them. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 07 06:32:08 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 May 2020 10:32:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42151 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWdp2-0006KW-Ix for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 06:32:08 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-f175.google.com ([209.85.219.175]:44585) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWdp1-0006K8-8t for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 06:32:07 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f175.google.com with SMTP id o8so1528807ybc.11 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 07 May 2020 03:32:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=trpYLgvixDm3atei+XE//mNNuKgw4k1xukEBYUFCUTc=; b=fodpZiOQayi4e5jXFKT2k8W4u3CXRp2UFkdVba7eLwsDDe+FY/3XOeXMhGCQEMQ/lT YcEbLfbX6HhoG7r1pjdZkCyXy3jkVxzQlwiYQ57fnG0n3ObQz2F2pS8nJRKtWRJ4mP8Q G2L1EvU1Az+vS28/ktD7O/5TQ84Rzy9eXoSxgQ+q5lI21QXh7uCW8vgwD4coJZ2DClxB DFS6Dtwlm2vxDmNndrN0aJFW6/Ow/0+Xon74TjkXC37eLgZtbiLmK3VSNyxXyfoOHiTV Q36K5hWVFEB1x+CVa+87Rz8HfMRa0k5Gs7c7j+9X2Kz6fm6+J7Udn2yLFdeQWwRqGZtB FdOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaMtsrSltFxKC+4QcHNAZQ20IDflaZwFBlCqHBqB6kVgIpMSgiz DMf8oKE0d8ircHxk2WCD1+HU8HntGZIGnCnGRus= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKKKHKcjvn1ld82Ygdpp8ddhuTa2j2mCnkenxljRDzcIx4rBHpyf58SuyK0kms/30fU6ykTsRb+uhMVIItKwco= X-Received: by 2002:a25:fc08:: with SMTP id v8mr21657751ybd.389.1588847521725; Thu, 07 May 2020 03:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 7 May 2020 06:32:01 -0400 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 06:32:01 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Richard Stallman writes: > > If I go up one node, to (elisp) Searching and Matching, I can see: > > > * Regular Expressions:: Describing classes of strings. > > * Regexp Search:: Searching for a match for a regexp. > > > So I suggest to move "Regexp Search" so that it is a section under > > "Regular Expressions" (instead of parallel to it). > > It seems to me that the syntax of regular expressions and how to do > things with regular expressions ought to be two parallel topics. If > this needs to be clarified, rather than making one a subnode of the > other, could we make some OTHER change that would do the job? I used the word "parallel" only in the sense that you first have to leave the chapter called "Regular Expressions" to find "Regexp Search". I didn't mean to suggest this information should not be divided into separate sections. My proposal is to include "how to use them" inside the chapter called "Regular Expressions". Is there any reason not to do that? (FWIW, I believe most other programming languages do it like that.) Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 07 22:49:30 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2020 02:49:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44286 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWt4s-0008KN-HG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 22:49:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44914) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWt4q-0008KA-Ga for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 22:49:28 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:35963) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWt4k-0000GR-UQ; Thu, 07 May 2020 22:49:22 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jWt4k-0004uv-2l; Thu, 07 May 2020 22:49:22 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Thu, 7 May 2020 06:32:01 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 22:49:22 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > My proposal is to include "how to use them" inside the chapter called > "Regular Expressions". Is there any reason not to do that? Now we have > > * Regular Expressions:: Describing classes of strings. > > * Regexp Search:: Searching for a match for a regexp. We could convert Regexp Search into a subsection under Regular Expressions. I don't see any harm in doing that. The Regexp Search node could come before, or after, the existing subsection, Regexp Functions. Which would be better? Does anyone object to this change? Meanwhile, the node Regexp Search is 230 lines long. Index entries pointing to such a long node are not very helpful. It would be good to subdivide that (soon to be) subsection into several subsubsections. This kind of splitting job calls for creativity, perhaps reordering material in the node. Splitting a node doesn't stop you from reading it as a whole. If you visit in Info a node that has subnodes, you can read it and its subnodes sequentially just by typing SPC repeatedly. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 07 22:51:11 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2020 02:51:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44290 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWt6U-0008NL-Ua for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 22:51:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:45650) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWt6S-0008N0-U8 for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 22:51:09 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:36019) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWt6N-0004eQ-K9; Thu, 07 May 2020 22:51:03 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jWt6M-0005Gj-Pk; Thu, 07 May 2020 22:51:02 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 6 May 2020 20:17:11 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <032f1835-d4ca-47c7-a8bb-3f4628a820a8@default> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 22:51:02 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, stefan@marxist.se, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > It doesn't follow that general use of regexps to > search/match ("how") can't usefully be introduced > before the full "what". In an introductory manual, or introductory chapters at the beginning, we sometimes do that. However, in a reference manual, that would make it hard for the reader to find the whole of any topic. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 02:48:15 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2020 06:48:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44475 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWwnv-00063E-72 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 02:48:15 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49684) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWwns-000631-H7 for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 02:48:13 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:40329) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWwnm-0008KJ-U2; Fri, 08 May 2020 02:48:06 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1111 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jWwnf-0006kc-Qk; Fri, 08 May 2020 02:48:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 08 May 2020 09:47:46 +0300 Message-Id: <831rnukjn1.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rms@gnu.org In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Thu, 07 May 2020 22:49:22 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, stefan@marxist.se, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Richard Stallman > Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 22:49:22 -0400 > Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com > > > My proposal is to include "how to use them" inside the chapter called > > "Regular Expressions". Is there any reason not to do that? > > Now we have > > > > * Regular Expressions:: Describing classes of strings. > > > * Regexp Search:: Searching for a match for a regexp. > > We could convert Regexp Search into a subsection under Regular > Expressions. I don't see any harm in doing that. Let's first decide whether we are talking about the Emacs user manual, the ELisp reference manual, or both. The current organization of this stuff is slightly different in each one. The OP meant the user manual, AFAIU. To answer the specific question you asked: this is all part of a chapter called "Searching and Replacement" in the user manual and "Searching and Matching" in the ELisp manual. So having there a section called "Regular Expressions" which would include a subsection about regexp search makes less sense to me than the other way around: have a section "Regular Expression Search" which would start with syntax of regexps and go on to a subsection that describes the regexp search facilities (it should then probably include the "POSIX Regexps" section as well). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 06:05:07 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2020 10:05:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44625 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWzsR-0002a1-BB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 06:05:07 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f175.google.com ([209.85.214.175]:35792) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWzsP-0002ZO-HI for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 06:05:05 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f175.google.com with SMTP id f8so537522plt.2 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 08 May 2020 03:05:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vckPYJzEGAl4q5m3FQzpMQQJZtIsx2mvDOXGlBD8R88=; b=BgKsF/GLEOw9Fa6L42PUtJZew36QY4IRPJrdtKCmoii8tgT2lqXe53w3ikmkkR2zfB 31DlmEbcYQo1BYyNiReH2abYFWoja6b/ie4ESJ4lBVMKU8gNrt59QRN2CNwFg3zTiK9E FLXJD7HrDzyFjz86Q6zR1m5iaA7JF8aF9JH7B+BXsuqcjbDQDo75biBazRMPGZjQbAy/ nHuh3GdsiU/kXVOAk/xNU0Sh0PSbIJbRnFH1RWEsLByLFDAm5BC3f0CeHHXgOkDjadQk JsCLiBFDbaQR/4MAQNZusB/dVZCSaxgx5t5ZLmzYDlrRy0z6/1iBNvEebxJVdecXjgwT fGBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vckPYJzEGAl4q5m3FQzpMQQJZtIsx2mvDOXGlBD8R88=; b=f+U8uNoAbECjukLgVqEKkh5WyP3Y1qyUnnSy+z6052GG0VoCj6y5Tui0ix7XUEo/jd /Y/2Ky64kSX+Owtq8kYBIuu7ZnB1eD5NIE6J/CAuF0EFoUWfWKVU7u9+VluyqTwspzCk XHbbshXlz5rfzeFrnrGYuimAKVkq+WTIvYI5huU6PfAV4NZN07qY9ESyUeZipof26ncQ hHUKqA0W5THJ4LPh9V7upAGpVG3LHsfirJ+fSY87OSzfPgnQTDpu92wF7q/E8lYz8Rou CfOGLCvWgypF6QlZpWfUNWsV7M+YEuOL9ta4j3u6BORQCdu2zMUbuMQrUSrL7os5H+uP k5VQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pub/qWSBsqBDuPk6l8WsexnlUjHkPfBghowWnF/lJcD6vHRb3BoS FZO6q5VlfW3fD44F3zlDSHlxOtykG88/l+xf3Xk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJab3Rjp7i0upr80c/0IWA0FAfhZwSS7Wtiyes9nlwGyqZua9WpKcgkSrsRzrL8MYW/t/ic/Mw3/t+nRnWGW7k= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:a413:: with SMTP id p19mr1756458plq.1.1588932299722; Fri, 08 May 2020 03:04:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9a86:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 8 May 2020 03:04:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> From: jan Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 11:04:58 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, Stefan Kangas , 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > Now we have > >> > * Regular Expressions:: Describing classes of strings. >> > * Regexp Search:: Searching for a match for a regexp. > > We could convert Regexp Search into a subsection under Regular > Expressions. I don't see any harm in doing that. I don't know if this is relevant, but I'd *mentally* place Regexp Search as a subtype of Search, from a purely classification POV. > Splitting a node doesn't stop you from reading it as a whole. > If you visit in Info a node that has subnodes, > you can read it and its subnodes sequentially > just by typing SPC repeatedly. Hmm. I'd forgotten you could do that. But crucially being able to do so just by itself does not solve the 'marooned on one island' problem.The user has to have some way of knowing there is a *more*. It has to be very clear somehow that there *is* more. Otherwise, yup. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 06:10:52 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2020 10:10:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44640 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWzy0-0002kC-Kz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 06:10:52 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-f173.google.com ([209.85.219.173]:44161) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jWzxz-0002js-Dr for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 06:10:51 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f173.google.com with SMTP id o8so653387ybc.11 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 08 May 2020 03:10:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nDYuh5G00eMvS8bAu7FbsGF5AnkqSOya7JHLdBTSULk=; b=ke+r8NYMc6KMnAzHJANxNv4BB2N8GncqK3N7lYUpHyfXbeoBBDS7TQEgDXPO/3npLT dp6bcpcrYTlCluL7J7Anp8pCKhX9Hi/0XBYbluCloXOAuPK4WtuyhIqMrRXcZ0wRoXGE 9iuPJbjoV3Mzv0+BjgBQGpfxqPsVfKbUDvUOqEeKQOBM0SpkPa4sNL6Zt+PWQ7Ot7Rip ejyMu7zlLYjCLjytUWmcqKspjD33kryz1JE//Zcm4CTXdb1B/vjBL0utLnFEweaCoy88 pFEo7fLj44fOZdj9BmdFjPY6RUs9XCBNPiKkBT8NQ9bLz4J0gTrQPOP+miy0le3pbS0e 6V6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua7QMYsoPqlJB+kVFkBvsaTuDluZlEyjWssCm47O5E7yQtT0bsa Hv0f7dc795AdAahyvPTzc/HtDS7hXh1jI+8ZQvw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLWwBKarM2gEWbFUIyNvyhBlQAd8NXtrnSLswSVBS6ujA6NE3WK7tm/bLNLBCmxHz6xG4909HbYlwP9KoLXTMc= X-Received: by 2002:a25:bb08:: with SMTP id z8mr3527702ybg.129.1588932645961; Fri, 08 May 2020 03:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 8 May 2020 03:10:45 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <831rnukjn1.fsf@gnu.org> References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <831rnukjn1.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 03:10:45 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Now we have >> >> > > * Regular Expressions:: Describing classes of strings. >> > > * Regexp Search:: Searching for a match for a regexp. >> >> We could convert Regexp Search into a subsection under Regular >> Expressions. I don't see any harm in doing that. I'm glad to hear that. > Let's first decide whether we are talking about the Emacs user manual, > the ELisp reference manual, or both. The current organization of this > stuff is slightly different in each one. The OP meant the user > manual, AFAIU. Yes, I brought up the ELisp manual. Sorry to bring this related issue into this discussion without clearly marking it as such. > To answer the specific question you asked: this is all part of a > chapter called "Searching and Replacement" in the user manual and > "Searching and Matching" in the ELisp manual. So having there a > section called "Regular Expressions" which would include a subsection > about regexp search makes less sense to me than the other way around: > have a section "Regular Expression Search" which would start with > syntax of regexps and go on to a subsection that describes the regexp > search facilities (it should then probably include the "POSIX Regexps" > section as well). I see your point here. In the user manual, perhaps we could re-organize what we have now (excluding other subsections for the sake of brevity): * Searching and Replacement ** Regexp Search:: Search for match for a regexp. ** Regexps:: Syntax of regular expressions. ** Regexp Backslash:: Regular expression constructs starting with = =E2=80=98\=E2=80=99. ** Regexp Example:: A complex regular expression explained. Into something like: * Searching and Replacement ** Regular Expression Search Search for match for a regexp. *** Regexp Syntax:: Syntax of regular expressions. *** Regexp Backslash:: Regular expression constructs starting with= =E2=80=98\=E2=80=99. *** Regexp Example:: A complex regular expression explained. I think one needs to look at it in the context of the user manual, and what the Info node `(emacs) Search' looks like to fully understand the merit of your argument. Every other subheading in that chapter is called something with " Search" (besides one, which is called "Replace"). --- In the ELisp manual, I think it could fine to have a section called simply "Regular Expressions". Either the user already knows about regexps, in which case we have no problem, or the user does not know but will soon find out. I argue this only because I find the shorter name more elegant. This is a minor stylistic point, though, and I'm fine with "Regular Expression Search" there, too. In any case, it looks like it needs a bit more work. There are actually bits and pieces about regular expressions spread out in the chapter `(elisp) Searching and Matching': * Regular Expressions:: Describing classes of strings. * Regexp Search:: Searching for a match for a regexp. * POSIX Regexps:: Searching POSIX-style for the longest match. * Match Data:: Finding out which part of the text matched, after a string or regexp search. * Search and Replace:: Commands that loop, searching and replacing. * Standard Regexps:: Useful regexps for finding sentences, pages,... Moving "Regexp Search" into a more general section called "Regular Expressions" is a step in the right direction. But then comes the problem with finding match data, which is part of the "Match Data" section, or using `re-search-forward', which is in the "Search and Replace" section. I have found all this information to be hard to find in the past. Maybe we can take a small first step here. But perhaps this section needs a bigger rethink? Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 06:32:00 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2020 10:32:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44647 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jX0IS-0003L6-D7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 06:32:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44578) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jX0IP-0003Ks-8Z for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 06:31:58 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49311) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jX0IJ-0000ZK-JS; Fri, 08 May 2020 06:31:51 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2741 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jX0I8-0002bC-W2; Fri, 08 May 2020 06:31:41 -0400 Date: Fri, 08 May 2020 13:31:28 +0300 Message-Id: <83tv0qiupr.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Fri, 8 May 2020 03:10:45 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <831rnukjn1.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, rms@gnu.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 03:10:45 -0700 > Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com > > In the user manual, perhaps we could re-organize what we have now > (excluding other subsections for the sake of brevity): > > * Searching and Replacement > ** Regexp Search:: Search for match for a regexp. > ** Regexps:: Syntax of regular expressions. > ** Regexp Backslash:: Regular expression constructs starting with ‘\’. > ** Regexp Example:: A complex regular expression explained. > > Into something like: > > * Searching and Replacement > ** Regular Expression Search Search for match for a regexp. > *** Regexp Syntax:: Syntax of regular expressions. > *** Regexp Backslash:: Regular expression constructs starting with ‘\’. > *** Regexp Example:: A complex regular expression explained. Is "Regular Expression Search" just a parent node of its children, or does it have content of its own (apart of the menu)? If the former, we need a subsection about searching with regexps, after we describe the regular expressions. If the latter, then do you suggest to describe the search before describing the regexps themselves? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 12:49:31 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2020 16:49:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46218 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jX6Bn-0006pG-25 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 12:49:31 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:39394) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jX6Bl-0006p4-4j for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 12:49:29 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 048GnLMr087605; Fri, 8 May 2020 16:49:21 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=5F7xoCtpBlOYoxs3CSuSDx4EVyQwIJwMwO5RrrE8F1U=; b=NYhn+85RbARzwF260y3I8LWtEuuR7gWq32uLPGTQvv4myES8ziYMWujCaKuG3erS3Bwu AHacgumTI3izTesyerXMSSlXNJjcXnFOC8g4Eyr8YrKE/wf2TSf5nFU5AYTniuGCLFYM i7EqdGnDSIV8Ua1VhgNDh23YuQWkRzp5JPyK5+CRsMu76H0V7srSpWbz3vFaDcQgTKUC HUR1ejvrMhW3kMzgx3dREMgd095LnniTCQ7hIhCiDHL551rof7yF6cLCPFRc4viTksIV 4nJiNvOeI4LdeFBRMUpBBqOa0g/aHNvyh4qJLaWSREg5bPX4U51o0MjBeR4lx37xQyVk Ag== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30vtepm1bx-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 08 May 2020 16:49:21 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 048GbdoE086187; Fri, 8 May 2020 16:49:15 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 30vte0fw6w-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 08 May 2020 16:49:14 +0000 Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 048GnCMN026910; Fri, 8 May 2020 16:49:12 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 09:49:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: rms@gnu.org, Stefan Kangas Subject: RE: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4993.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9614 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=991 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005080142 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9614 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005080142 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > My proposal is to include "how to use them" inside the chapter > > called "Regular Expressions". Is there any reason not to do that? >=20 > Now we have >=20 > * Regular Expressions:: Describing classes of strings. > * Regexp Search:: Searching for a match for a regexp. >=20 > We could convert Regexp Search into a subsection under Regular > Expressions. I don't see any harm in doing that. I too agreed with that, and added: In that case, in the section on search there'd need to be some mention the ability to do regexp search, and xrefs to the relevant "use" sections of the regexp doc. IOW, if regexp search is under regexps then the (other) search section needs to link to the regexp-search topic. > The Regexp Search node could come before, or after, the > existing subsection, Regexp Functions. Which would be better? Suggestion: 1. Some high-level description of regexps - an idea of what they are and what you can use them for. 2. How to use them to match/search: regexp search. 3. Details of what they are - syntax, etc. But the order between 2 & 3 could be the opposite. What's important is for #1 to introduce both 2 & 3. And of course links among topics, for people who land on one of them out of the blue (e.g. by googling and getting to the HTML manual on the web). > Does anyone object to this change? (Not I.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 14:17:58 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2020 18:17:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46278 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jX7ZO-0000iU-Pn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 14:17:58 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-f176.google.com ([209.85.219.176]:34299) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jX7ZM-0000iE-SF for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 14:17:58 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f176.google.com with SMTP id q206so1402521ybg.1 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 08 May 2020 11:17:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=av4hgwlv9LOE8y5rRDT/FxVrjCxxjWnVGgiZs5Db774=; b=G1le/BhOhHK4BnqJd9moBJ/XZSJ9tWRglsVjqiEeZwY4NHsh3mZlIfNPmNTRomskp1 D9JPPrk9lYWWJi609K0FOixaXkMOTBVqSSDuKWz+XtXZ0L+RkmKiHapsoummVaiMJCdP VT0MqWyMPd0GCi825iWGfvGcwGlo8Ub9hmKOw+/gMLGA3wrNVvVwD5eJ/17w/9HKH79I Gv16IX+tT4TRx6SitAzBz3jhVKLfD1885Fazb8BVlQD+Ohbd7a7F5RbwCW5eDvKrHhiQ jdopKCE5UJzSBoPMhFSHn80SX3LfZTzcSpPzubL4i2NrZBuX9EzSIptZY1CWbYVOpLrr euQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZll9+3qLYrfycYnIbaeX9ABPcuvzH4sB1pQu6xm2wE2RQ27Sb2 kv3hPKIwmub0rwEWvmvnrgswzaZGIsW96BIq7+8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLbNiT5FjMp+XSOzKbtM6xOa3oLuySjshFhYFD2WPhc/sars6GNmeNFT7cwocr+ODNpoAzgSc/BLeUrJyc+F64= X-Received: by 2002:a25:af86:: with SMTP id g6mr6655801ybh.85.1588961871419; Fri, 08 May 2020 11:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 8 May 2020 11:17:50 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <83tv0qiupr.fsf@gnu.org> References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <831rnukjn1.fsf@gnu.org> <83tv0qiupr.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 11:17:50 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, rms@gnu.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> * Searching and Replacement >> ** Regular Expression Search Search for match for a regexp. >> *** Regexp Syntax:: Syntax of regular expressions. >> *** Regexp Backslash:: Regular expression constructs starting w= ith =E2=80=98\=E2=80=99. >> *** Regexp Example:: A complex regular expression explained. > > Is "Regular Expression Search" just a parent node of its children, or > does it have content of its own (apart of the menu)? I can imagine both ways working, but I think my preference would be to have a brief introduction. > If the former, we need a subsection about searching with regexps, > after we describe the regular expressions. Agreed. > If the latter, then do you suggest to describe the search before > describing the regexps themselves? For the user manual, I actually like that the commands are introduced early in `(emacs) Regexp Search', which is what users are looking for. Then we can explain the details of how to use them. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 14:47:57 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2020 18:47:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46312 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jX82P-0001aV-LK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 14:47:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35258) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jX82O-0001aB-Gb for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 14:47:56 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:35534) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jX82I-0000yz-Sy; Fri, 08 May 2020 14:47:50 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1709 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jX82A-0002sG-Fg; Fri, 08 May 2020 14:47:42 -0400 Date: Fri, 08 May 2020 21:47:30 +0300 Message-Id: <83sggagt6l.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Fri, 8 May 2020 11:17:50 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <831rnukjn1.fsf@gnu.org> <83tv0qiupr.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, rms@gnu.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 11:17:50 -0700 > Cc: rms@gnu.org, mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, > rtm443x@googlemail.com > > > If the latter, then do you suggest to describe the search before > > describing the regexps themselves? > > For the user manual, I actually like that the commands are introduced > early in `(emacs) Regexp Search', which is what users are looking for. > Then we can explain the details of how to use them. I think this will be suboptimal. The chapter (or the whole manual) is either read in its entirety (if the reader is new to the topic), or is used as a reference. For the former use case, we should introduce regular expressions before we explain how to use them, otherwise the text will be confusing (see below). For the latter use case, the order is entirely immaterial, since the readers are supposed to use index-search to get directly where the subject they are looking for is described. IME, it sometimes helps to describe usage of something before explaining what that something is, but only if the latter follows very closely in the footsteps of the former. Something like this (to take an example of something I used just today): In buffers where Font Lock mode is enabled, patterns are highlighted using font lock. In buffers where Font Lock mode is disabled, patterns are applied using overlays; in this case, the highlighting will not be updated as you type. The Font Lock mode is considered "enabled" in a buffer if its `major-mode' causes `font-lock-specified-p' to return non-nil, which means the major mode specifies support for Font Lock. This is not the case in the regexp search description case: there, we will have a long list of search commands, and the reader will read all that and all the time wonder what the heck is that "regular expression" thing and how to write one. When I bump into text that doesn't explain an unusual term a sentence or two after it is first used, I become annoyed and scan quickly forward until I find the definition; only then I can continue reading. My recommendation is to avoid such "delayed" definitions. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 16:09:16 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 May 2020 20:09:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46396 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jX9J5-0005oz-VY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 16:09:16 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-f176.google.com ([209.85.219.176]:40617) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jX9J4-0005ol-Ar for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 16:09:14 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f176.google.com with SMTP id c2so1549937ybi.7 for <41006@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 08 May 2020 13:09:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ij3kB75mrxoxTfmjzXEPPISKuO1Ja62fGw4ClDwUDVw=; b=lnwoWeQBG6Oh7aBl4/6kS0d9sgeK+khXmTUIAY9izoX7/ei4g8JYmLOfba1E7EeZIy ojXIhgYHGA7d4uZeKEbhlF5DQIABonpAmXekjzxKAQ43WqXlcKWcyFEFwRNn+HNOJpAZ 6/qAdD+W0xBBtmr3kloKkgDu/xMTjTzZURqOU9Am3bymUZVCUFRuJbAhneMaBQnTX3SQ MNukrnOe3vGkwzh8mhEkRS+20dzMxvht5qzcj8ismfk8jeyeYPelI2PqktDRnWXcGtww koPR/yqSK+H0LBpzApETzHQTQpiBEcyOUdbTemCmE5TcmpyQB93gpRclndREA/r9T+iJ x3fw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pub7+39kbUuAcoJI0ke/TCmx14S0jOExR2eFQCRUWofTh6eQ4yLv AJQdcxV8ODhPFK53UVflvrfSDEPa8W5DG/vPy9k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKlzjryRCWtiY7osyL6k4770bDRK7cmRlUcriDB6vmTzlbcaD/ZoEdljrbtYqLvNwFBvf8McRkGMADGFXiwUVc= X-Received: by 2002:a25:5c4:: with SMTP id 187mr7722747ybf.181.1588968548859; Fri, 08 May 2020 13:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 8 May 2020 13:09:08 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <83sggagt6l.fsf@gnu.org> References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <831rnukjn1.fsf@gnu.org> <83tv0qiupr.fsf@gnu.org> <83sggagt6l.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 13:09:08 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, rms@gnu.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Eli Zaretskii writes: > I think this will be suboptimal. [...] OK, you have convinced me. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 23:48:24 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2020 03:48:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46544 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGTP-0002jX-UP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:48:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:48838) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGTG-0002j7-KC for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:48:22 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:43710) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGTA-00048G-T9; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:48:08 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGTA-00045Q-1H; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:48:08 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Tue, 5 May 2020 15:04:25 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> <032f1835-d4ca-47c7-a8bb-3f4628a820a8@default> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 08 May 2020 23:48:08 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > IOW, separate using regexps (searching and matching) > > from details about what regexps are and what their > > syntax is. > This is the exact opposite of what I proposed, I think. > I argued that keeping them together would be more user-friendly and > pedagogical. Could you expand on why keeping them separate is better, > in your opinion? I have a hunch that you are miscommunicating using "separate" and "together" in slightly different ways, and that you don't really disagree much. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 23:54:07 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2020 03:54:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46552 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGYw-0002sy-Qz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:54:07 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51068) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGYv-0002sU-6b for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:54:05 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:43870) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGYp-0006V9-OL; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:53:59 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGYo-00053H-Lt; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:53:58 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Fri, 8 May 2020 09:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 08 May 2020 23:53:58 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, stefan@marxist.se, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > 1. Some high-level description of regexps - an idea > of what they are and what you can use them for. > 2. How to use them to match/search: regexp search. > 3. Details of what they are - syntax, etc. This suggestion is rather vague because it doesn't relate to the node structure. The node structure is crucial for a manual in Info. The overall node for regexps, Regular Expressions, should start with a brief introduction. (Every node that has subnodes should start with a brief introduction.) It could be as much as 10 or 12 lines. But the subnode menu should fit on the screen, so more than 10 or 12 lines is too many. The node intro normally does NOT start to teach those topics; it only says what the topics are. We can't describe very much of regexp syntax there. It could say a little bit about some very simple regexps, but no more. So the first subnodes need to describe how to write a regexp. I am thinking about the Lisp Manual here. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 23:54:10 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2020 03:54:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46555 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGZ0-0002tF-3C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:54:10 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51094) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGYy-0002sp-Fj for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:54:08 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:43871) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGYt-0006Vz-5d; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:54:03 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGYq-00053Y-Pp; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:54:01 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Drew Adams In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Fri, 8 May 2020 09:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 08 May 2020 23:54:00 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, stefan@marxist.se, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org, rtm443x@googlemail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] Once any bigger changes are made, please suggest links anywhere. It will be easy to install them then. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 08 23:56:09 2020 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2020 03:56:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46564 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGav-0002wz-KV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:56:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51786) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGat-0002wm-LS for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:56:07 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:43934) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGao-00051o-7k; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:56:02 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jXGam-0005Xd-MT; Fri, 08 May 2020 23:56:01 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: jan In-Reply-To: (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: <64E29F93-5A92-4F8D-9BA2-C6F14AEC2F64@acm.org> <824a1116-8e91-409f-95ff-69ef168a359d@default> <87k11s221z.fsf@stefankangas.se> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 08 May 2020 23:56:00 -0400 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: mattiase@acm.org, stefan@marxist.se, 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I don't know if this is relevant, but I'd *mentally* place Regexp > Search as a subtype of Search, from a purely classification POV. In the Lisp manual, regexps are in the Searching and Matching chapter, so it is already in the right place. > But crucially being able to do so just by itself does not solve the > 'marooned on one island' problem.The user has to have some way of > knowing there is a *more*. Unless you're at the end of the index, there is _always_ more. SPC will take you through the whole manual if you keep typing it. At some point SPC will take you to some other topic, and that tells you there was no more of the the topic you were looking at. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 29 08:22:48 2022 Received: (at 41006) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2022 12:22:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51102 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nkPe3-0005nJ-SH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:22:48 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:37236) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nkPe1-0005n3-BV for 41006@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:22:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=46gxcXrmZnh53kmd6XDDfWA7RlEOfnu9EVbg6C3CVQE=; b=ScX7zOgnZ4DshTUq47TTo0Rxth 8JJhJi8ENNdFHwW+afWwyeW8LzYvzMvf/ALcigtCH4zCI9OMEyAIZMrXSW9SVV/kOSBgObAFKkBxJ BoF9orEJmAvviQOY0pg9O/gkgaI2lzPcbbrP+73pjH6vjStLbDd4F767T+39l9y6WGNU=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nkPds-0007uH-Qv; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:22:39 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: jan Subject: Re: bug#41006: 26.3; regular expressions documentation References: X-Now-Playing: Colleen's _A Flame My Love, A Frequency_: "Another World" Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:22:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: (jan's message of "Fri, 1 May 2020 20:06:06 +0100") Message-ID: <877d78f59v.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: jan writes: > 1. Suggest emacs' excellent documentation should not distinguish between > Regexps and Regexp Backslash in the manual. > That is, these 2 should be combined: > > * Regexps:: Syntax of regular expres [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 41006 Cc: 41006@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) jan writes: > 1. Suggest emacs' excellent documentation should not distinguish between > Regexps and Regexp Backslash in the manual. > That is, these 2 should be combined: > > * Regexps:: Syntax of regular expressions. > * Regexp Backslash:: Regular expression constructs starting wi= th =E2=80=98\=E2=80=99. > > AFAICS the difference is purely arbitrary. > There have been times I've looked for the syntax for such syntax and > found it only because I knew it was there, but not in the same > section. A beginner might conclude emacs doesn't support them. (I'm going through old bug reports that unfortunately weren't resolved at the time.) Skimming this bug thread and the two nodes in the Emacs user manual, I don't really see much to improve here. The Emacs user manual is there for users to read to introduce them to concepts and guide them -- it's not a reference manual to look up things like this. Reading those two chapters, it seems like they do that quite well. So I don't think we want to rearrange these chapters, and I'm therefore closing this bug report. --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 29 08:22:51 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2022 12:22:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51105 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nkPe7-0005nZ-3r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:22:51 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:37250) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nkPe5-0005nA-H8 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:22:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=0XL5Dyi/eXO1ZjQ+UNp1N8TbRNaxUqQmwB3OdDMKdas=; b=E0oSxKyVte712AecR6azljD0wp FX6iqrMfnik4871sGitGL2c6G4simbGDqsmvSaNceNCriZyZ8hLWkZmR18m1IYLEaByecDzDUNy/2 Ad0iFWiXW0ys654mKNbcBVzsQj7tbpfhvQSZmJtk4Q0QFxcreUvnW24A0bAh0DrXfXA8=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nkPdx-0007uR-Pp for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:22:43 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 14:22:41 +0200 Message-Id: <875ymsf59q.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #41006 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 41006 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 41006 quit From unknown Sun Jun 22 00:05:01 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 28 May 2022 11:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator