From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 11 05:24:04 2020 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Apr 2020 09:24:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56164 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jNCMu-0003i5-MI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 05:24:04 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:56091) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jNCMt-0003hy-I8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 05:24:03 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39051) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jNCMs-0004kq-7f for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 05:24:03 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jNCMr-0002DN-0Y for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 05:24:01 -0400 Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([95.128.36.40]:46538) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jNCMq-0002CS-Ek for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 05:24:00 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by ext-mx-out003.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DDAF40D30 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 11:23:57 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freedommail.ch; h=content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:message-id:date:date:subject:subject:from:from :received:received:received; s=dkim20160331; t=1586597037; x= 1588411438; bh=Z7dmqT1Z0EY8yPcQhdVQ1p+RDyPkaGezjuBIgYCAtIE=; b=J w0UecXsJEUlpGan4W80+A6jbpEqvjac5Hsglo86mFjenP9JgKjdCTSuBLv4/n8Q4 yNO1D+AEd8jCepIESramvjiElR9WVOc7QfQAdKQ+9aX7RMq8+vg9bAb1ZOX+5Om7 YK76QwUp++iBYzzwu4CVyXxJMSiYO1XCmBFVCaVcKNvO63O2ZCCv8Hl00dVtol0B 5QZYOhS3XZPe9LgnfIHHvolEbvHp/KBLbJnUuklkmDn1Pcfldz237Za34BJuDuT0 3MEX3OS4jyzLJwKrcbGUhzdyOFDnr3sVQXfoHt2Ixn5gCXNKj6vMuOsmrFjQq7C6 sX9N7Blmh+xYnl9D2eGCGT3H+bCeSSoXHefhCSxTieA4V+/rJJTcvTRLYoxqoVdA F/2c3V7eHt3u1+8isFqBbHOIftuU3oZm8Fbll1JZEb3GZTMRUPgviSgIpe/zvw6W Kf+o0LvH2040hfN5c/MNQ2l41bOYMT1hyfWUQsap/c8j7Lc3BQFj/qukLoV3nty0 bqk75hk58V4modue4R+ccT4dDPPeYn8eN8ivfMstlCvRo0C+aBwlOPEzLItlhTUC zreKab9R1a0atzq1LLB7IjBM9JcXSyG0G114GNR4CUUxuS+u//La3yzIa3tLkpJl Tu6XauRbqA8aOaW3lK9Hi0nBLb/nEJOB6/rUrUQcvU= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mykolab.com Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ext-mx-out003.mykolab.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X006GfGyfwpu for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 11:23:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from int-mx001.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.13.1]) by ext-mx-out003.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF2C3404CE for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 11:23:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ext-subm003.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.6.3]) by int-mx001.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8989A557 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 11:23:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Tom Zander To: bug-guix@gnu.org Subject: [usability] revert last generation Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 11:23:52 +0200 Message-ID: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 95.128.36.40 X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) This could be nicer: I just installed something and want to revert this last generation, as seen in `guix package -l`. Doing a single call like `guix package -S 17 -d 18` does not work, and I'd like it to work. What it does is that it notices I'm currently on generation 18 and thus it can't delete that one. As such it just errors out and returns. What I expect to happen (regardless of order of arguments) is that it switches to the 17th generation and then deletes generation 18. -- Tom Zander From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 23 15:37:34 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Apr 2020 19:37:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55859 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jRhfB-0006nm-Om for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:37:34 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41652) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jRhfA-0006nZ-8l for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:37:32 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:54348) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRhf4-0002Pj-Mu; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:37:26 -0400 Received: from [2a01:e0a:1d:7270:af76:b9b:ca24:c465] (port=42068 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jRhf4-0005yn-70; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:37:26 -0400 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: Tom Zander Subject: Re: bug#40549: [usability] revert last generation References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 21:37:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> (Tom Zander's message of "Sat, 11 Apr 2020 11:23:52 +0200") Message-ID: <87wo66ngcs.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hi, Tom Zander skribis: > This could be nicer: > > I just installed something and want to revert this last generation, as se= en in=20 > `guix package -l`. > > Doing a single call like `guix package -S 17 -d 18` does not work, and = I'd=20 > like it to work. Oh indeed. In practice I=E2=80=99d simply run =E2=80=9Cguix package --roll= -back=E2=80=9D in such a case so I think the example above is a bit convoluted, but I agree that it=E2=80=99d be nice if it behaved like you describe. Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 23 15:51:48 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Apr 2020 19:51:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55864 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jRhsy-00078i-39 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:51:48 -0400 Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([95.128.36.42]:52790) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jRhsv-00078T-EN for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:51:46 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by ext-mx-out002.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C82E64D for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 21:51:39 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freedommail.ch; h=content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:message-id:date:date:subject:subject:from:from :received:received:received; s=dkim20160331; t=1587671498; x= 1589485899; bh=U/D6txxl6jbL2j+U/Lg0PZPK7BWh12P6ZaLYyFKDtwc=; b=Q onhVjOQ4bdBBCw/y8We0245acw1CJ8PU0h5LqUqT4RZNlVlG4/YNei+BXHdlgt9M BIkUj+VovnUwkbO8nu7dmjdl0uMu8+1DW9dloFbu429LjJn1pgXPDrZyYId7Qu1F Wx09pPTnAI/yl9+4JbrT0PZWMMRlZcL+rjz6SiT+znfFxr+8dm6DG4K7f2uMzxU2 CUzVEQjJbnUXTqXFKqd6rArtNxaVS9FsBlW9TWWId2KMvVdR3dGlRHqQqmPPZn/j dWU4kHzEzx0AIgesgeXkaKLNScqNkkWYQOPDdGLaMKGzw180a9YU0T7LfkxJLnPT 6bZLVEDqEsSFdIk4iCOAEQJhxbLWJU5e6izroYndc8xlK5BvJdkVjABBfHg5oYYz nkYv/nCoIq86PuMGL3dg6Tk8Wwc3kHTvFIL/cbXWSIiWkvaWq7E/3OiJY8LHM+LD Eh7DnUx+Y7UJiiYSon49yammCRf1AKyyM36qcgJWyKbuwO5ND23CArZWh/pItxvM oJwnuEFocAudToyM4JrB91e1naaFQvvxGKKbknQ7fHOhS+HtQnhHXKvbdFzp56Sg lIhBBnE5NBUG/HU+TCn71BG6pCy2FZS1safL/5y7EebxBycchIaFDyYDf9N692Gp YhKbVy08cWrRofeSXNcms1k/ISX1pi5+VXP1YEBcGQ= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mykolab.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-10 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ext-mx-out002.mykolab.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NulROKvNTbeM for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 21:51:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from int-mx001.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.13.1]) by ext-mx-out002.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA25345E for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 21:51:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ext-subm001.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.6.1]) by int-mx001.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DE2A39E for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 21:51:38 +0200 (CEST) From: Tom To: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: More usability issues: Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 21:51:36 +0200 Message-ID: <3827671.e9J7NaK4W3@peach> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) To add detail here: Doing `guix package -d 18 -S 17` actually works. This gives me the impression that the order of arguments is relevant to the processing of them. This sounds like a bad idea because that is quite unlike the normal gnu command line parsers behavior (and generally any command line parsers, unless in very rare cases). The 'package' subcommand should likely always try to do things in-order. First Switch, reject any second Switch argument. Then delete (which can be repeated). Etc. That would be much more predicable and UX friendly. Another, similar, example is: guix package -l --profile=a this doesn't work. But the most curious thing is that this does: guix package --list-installed --profile=a and this too: guix package --profile=a -l and this too; guix package -l --profile=a -l The things that DONT work are confusingly similar to the things that do, and the things don't make sense (having -l twice) work just fine without errors. As said, this is a UX gem to fix. Please take some time to make command line parting usable by humans! From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 24 04:29:09 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Apr 2020 08:29:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56399 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jRtht-0003GI-6S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 04:29:09 -0400 Received: from mail-qt1-f172.google.com ([209.85.160.172]:37014) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jRthq-0003Fs-Sh for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 04:29:07 -0400 Received: by mail-qt1-f172.google.com with SMTP id k12so7268587qtm.4 for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 01:29:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6NAh66rDgaz386jxrdL1SvKM2xP8ixndDd0LudsX8jA=; b=Dpehmchfqv0q1kvuImU4saWzEqLTiFCmtabp5HBVrDLmb4B8d7Z+V3fcuDCdRn5tVU 5TiVeuOvakdACQgudxOsG4eJNmIa/GyRY/OXZBIYAhfVy7KgX8b5qUpbBZZkNEsp91b0 +p4fAppxA9rxlL/CCc/U2upHyB5T0vcj2o/LRK3xH3j9pDGHKLhN9RV372dfEKmGwAZ5 WpHqezbW4EGn9REbpPc+ieqTrmbXNEh13cZgx/r0jOTe+RetSYSl/BEw1jL1gHYAA6nP 1nY/y1uarD48fyZIsdUH7HBKNSPqZyFA+Y8r3ddUGcaPSS5cdkeqAWZYvPoPfs4n8QBb umWA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6NAh66rDgaz386jxrdL1SvKM2xP8ixndDd0LudsX8jA=; b=e+GwSmH4KPolFTocApZVDMkc56yNM8Q6VRoGJxgjXSGXm729ks0OYamQg+wtFWnLXc zkO5jjvJJeLjf1uKAgD4mfVAk8qW+N57uAnFCIzDUK981eiC0ZVZqEupnz9OU8Mou3R/ QBr7nzTiePbmsXCzDf015hqP/Kap7DGW9FBP7t5c8V5aypq+/kGjochzOxFt0Qe9+R0O RPi2oVyEqhnHsvjxLdXb4Kqb27yCQ6wRhsoO7ZrdoMFcvJCyCOlEH1jMWSYreYpUC0Gf J0nr+eMWZKp2DL7Izu+uSM60LzXQrCiYq6lTVngDqV/6yLh3dFxXXstsRoMA7DpxUScA QfKQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYBqHpcUT0ouZ7ybtFy0sr0hr6MFPLgz1FPUrOPlQDo70bu2htn S46uvBGmoPZdF1N9Vbui/lW+OZriDzKMt374vlIs/fEg X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIm3lxg3Qy8saCD/j5/r8gQIJCiqVb6kP6VsJMc0hIQ78hxv+QTQ6DQuwNN7KirUb4GaKH8zRLiJTtiCvkdN4Y= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4e0f:: with SMTP id c15mr7894523qtw.211.1587716941154; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 01:29:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <3827671.e9J7NaK4W3@peach> In-Reply-To: <3827671.e9J7NaK4W3@peach> From: zimoun Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 10:28:50 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: To: Tom Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 at 21:52, Tom via Bug reports for GNU Guix wrote: > > To add detail here: > > Doing `guix package -d 18 -S 17` actually works. > > This gives me the impression that the order of arguments is relevant to the > processing of them. It is known and cumbersome: a feature? ;-) Other examples: guix package -I -A # does nothing guix package -A -I # list available > Another, similar, example is: > > guix package -l --profile=a > > this doesn't work. But the most curious thing is that this does: > > guix package --list-installed --profile=a It is worse than that. --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- # OK guix package --list-generations -p /path/to/profile guix package --list-installed -p /path/to/profile # KO guix package -l -p /path/to/profile guix package -I -p /path/to/profile # OK guix package -p /path/to/profile -l guix package -p /path/to/profile -I # KO guix package -l --profile=/path/to/profile # Do nothing guix package -I --profile=/path/to/profile # OK guix package -l --profile=/path/to/profile -l guix package -I --profile=/path/to/profile -I --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- Well, it seems there is a bug. :-) Back to the first examples: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- # Do something guix package --list-installed -A # Do nothing guix package -I -A --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- Thanks for reporting. All the best, simon From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 11 20:27:21 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2020 00:27:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53674 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYIlU-00006A-L8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 20:27:21 -0400 Received: from mail-qv1-f52.google.com ([209.85.219.52]:33489) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYIlT-00005w-R7 for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 20:27:20 -0400 Received: by mail-qv1-f52.google.com with SMTP id ep1so5617618qvb.0 for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 11 May 2020 17:27:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Pa25E2TMPyz/EKsc+RnmouzavvgSICXxQh+FY8h6K1U=; b=qmzi4im56pKJSCsLdLzj+uHaMNwt4MNHhaPgNkMjwxtq2YUftblIuSm2wLpnTFpcqh 6roVXozGHwg6q6PfgDTYxtcif+3ouuQib/2M0w4RtiuLNeZ6UkmNusNaqd89+pV0jhmf uRekAFQOZ5KMBq6K8QqcBnALlG4b0N3xnXNHCxG0lIgDhe7v04Jo2V/koDJc+6dM8szU sUH66K87+IPZtebmZ1lJPb1o+8KJsp8i0+mgkonzDxtjym+UE1UL8LcUVvmmQd6vhWVo FIzsryAhbzMNvI/hMsHe0z9VmUD1AcCF7rcz8q3WCzBnVyb9nOYud7jQglykBUkzyjZE F4Rw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Pa25E2TMPyz/EKsc+RnmouzavvgSICXxQh+FY8h6K1U=; b=Xk2i3UEE/Oo6ORjDVc/iiJmHnH7nsx2z8il2FPgu/7YZwfMAmIY4DMZD+E6m0cj4gb qTsLDzRQ+2iuYXgl526AstFafR2Y0xzitCQH4qUJ0cx/J7+SqqPZSj1nc3bBiCq7BAWo ubEIM59aLupREiSfjNcSI1I3UWPo04zUyTdnsHrLjsvL33GQkyjxhHpv1Ix2QhmP/2WK OgIOGGfDPUcnEGWmB9Jt6veGN4D5oY6CR8VndaFM86rO6VYncljASYqG1LI6z0ue9GL7 et+/5NDJ08XKGgStzkqMs2A6G1IlRT4cNqt6NoAxA3derAKwCAjSf8jbyFsM2OzBQKEC QlaA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZfeGIWYFNV4YmAPcBBDSr1TAuYVmV8e7ZUWqfvjf5sPPBDBQUj kkrIHJ/JxE9MJTxkf6TUPlJOLISyf24tZAbn+2s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypITibiLiewIGG8A+sW/0P7x6mTTBl3oxq2WPGfMQia0NWoUbpuU9RjEM9gxIiewRtLclZIGZkqjp8YGEv2XEpc= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4c92:: with SMTP id bs18mr18403353qvb.67.1589243234209; Mon, 11 May 2020 17:27:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <3827671.e9J7NaK4W3@peach> In-Reply-To: From: zimoun Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 02:27:03 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: To: Tom Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= , 40549@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) TLDR: there is no "real" bug. :-) Just a choice to do and document it. On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 10:28, zimoun wrote: > guix package -I -A # does nothing > guix package -A -I # list available Expected. First line, -I -A' means that '-A' is seen as an argument for '-I'. Idem for the second line '-A -I', i.e., '-I' is seen as an argument for '-A'. > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---> # OK > guix package --list-generations -p /path/to/profile > guix package --list-installed -p /path/to/profile > > # KO > guix package -l -p /path/to/profile > guix package -I -p /path/to/profile > > # OK > guix package -p /path/to/profile -l > guix package -p /path/to/profile -I > > # KO > guix package -l --profile=/path/to/profile > > # Do nothing > guix package -I --profile=/path/to/profile > > # OK > guix package -l --profile=/path/to/profile -l > guix package -I --profile=/path/to/profile -I > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- All are expected too. Same reason. And the long option works because no argument is provided by '=' so it fallback to the default one "". Short options expect an argument so read the next characters as the value or fallback to the default one "" when there is no next character. Fixing this will add complexity on parsing 'args' when building 'opts'. Basically, "guix package -I -p /path/tp/profile" returns an error because the short option '-I' expect only one argument, read '-p' and then Guix cannot deals with the option '/path/to/profile' and so raises an error. See the dance with 'handle-argument' and 'arg-handler'. And "guix package -I '' -p /path/to/profile' works, obviously. Well, the extra quotes ('') is annoying but I am not convince that better could be done for short options -- regardless the order of CLI arguments. One solution should be add short options as '-AA' or '-II' for such cases. But I am not convince that such "weird" combination deserves such attention. :-) Back to the initial report: (a) guix package -S 17 -d 18 # KO (b) guix package -d 18 -S 17 # OK This is not the same issue than the one described previously. Here the culprit is 'process-actions'. And composing "action" seems more than legitimate (composing "query" is questionable). Why (a) works and (b) not? Because the command-line is transformed into an alist. And this alist is built reading the command-line from right to left. Therefore, if you are on the generation 18 and you try to delete it, Guix raises an error which seems expected. The second one (b) works because first you switch and then you delete. Well, that's said, IMHO, two options: 1) the order of CLI does not matter; 2) the order of CLI matters. Well, the order of 'actions' necessary matters as it is seen with this example: "switch and then delete" does not end in the same state than "delete and then switch". Welcome in the classical mess of imperative package manager. ;-) Therefore, I am not convinced that something should be fixed. It comes from the very nature of 'actions': actions is not always commutative. Otherwise the best is to forbid to provide several actions with the same transaction; which seems a bad idea -- at least for me. However, main of us are used to read from left to right so it seems more natural to write: guix package --action1 --action2 # (a) than guix package --action2 --action1 # (b) in other words, the fix should be to simply 'reverse opts' and the CLI will read (a) instead of the current (b). My only concern is about backward compatibility. My opinion based on backward compatibility argument is: let as it is and document it in the manual. WDYT? All the best, simon From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 12 04:51:38 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2020 08:51:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54119 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYQdV-0004qC-Sq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 04:51:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33712) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYQdU-0004px-ER for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 04:51:36 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:36066) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYQdO-0003de-By; Tue, 12 May 2020 04:51:30 -0400 Received: from [2a01:e0a:1d:7270:af76:b9b:ca24:c465] (port=40928 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jYQdO-0005qk-0q; Tue, 12 May 2020 04:51:30 -0400 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: zimoun Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <3827671.e9J7NaK4W3@peach> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: 24 =?utf-8?Q?Flor=C3=A9al?= an 228 de la =?utf-8?Q?R?= =?utf-8?Q?=C3=A9volution?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 10:51:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: (zimoun's message of "Tue, 12 May 2020 02:27:03 +0200") Message-ID: <87mu6dcz8v.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org, Tom X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Hi, zimoun skribis: >> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---> # OK >> guix package --list-generations -p /path/to/profile >> guix package --list-installed -p /path/to/profile >> >> # KO >> guix package -l -p /path/to/profile >> guix package -I -p /path/to/profile >> >> # OK >> guix package -p /path/to/profile -l >> guix package -p /path/to/profile -I >> >> # KO >> guix package -l --profile=3D/path/to/profile >> >> # Do nothing >> guix package -I --profile=3D/path/to/profile >> >> # OK >> guix package -l --profile=3D/path/to/profile -l >> guix package -I --profile=3D/path/to/profile -I >> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > > All are expected too. > Same reason. And the long option works because no argument is > provided by '=3D' so it fallback to the default one "". > Short options expect an argument so read the next characters as the > value or fallback to the default one "" when there is no next > character. > > Fixing this will add complexity on parsing 'args' when building > 'opts'. Basically, "guix package -I -p /path/tp/profile" returns an > error because the short option '-I' expect only one argument, read > '-p' and then Guix cannot deals with the option '/path/to/profile' and > so raises an error. See the dance with 'handle-argument' and > 'arg-handler'. And "guix package -I '' -p /path/to/profile' works, > obviously. Well, the extra quotes ('') is annoying but I am not > convince that better could be done for short options -- regardless the > order of CLI arguments. Nothing new here, and everything is properly documented. I think there are option parsers that =E2=80=9Ccorrectly=E2=80=9D deal with= the ambiguity that arises for instance with =E2=80=9C-I -p foo=E2=80=9D (is =E2= =80=98-p=E2=80=99 the argument to =E2=80=98-I=E2=80=99 or something else?). Perhaps libc=E2=80= =99s argp does it right. However (srfi srfi-37) does it as we see it now. Fixing it would mean implementing a different option parser. > Why (a) works and (b) not? Because the command-line is transformed > into an alist. And this alist is built reading the command-line from > right to left. Therefore, if you are on the generation 18 and you try > to delete it, Guix raises an error which seems expected. The second > one (b) works because first you switch and then you delete. > > Well, that's said, IMHO, two options: > > 1) the order of CLI does not matter; > 2) the order of CLI matters. > > Well, the order of 'actions' necessary matters as it is seen with this > example: "switch and then delete" does not end in the same state than > "delete and then switch". Welcome in the classical mess of imperative > package manager. ;-) > Therefore, I am not convinced that something should be fixed. It > comes from the very nature of 'actions': actions is not always > commutative. Otherwise the best is to forbid to provide several > actions with the same transaction; which seems a bad idea -- at least > for me. Right, but at least we could reverse the list returned by =E2=80=98args-fol= d=E2=80=99. > However, main of us are used to read from left to right so it seems > more natural to write: > > guix package --action1 --action2 # (a) > than > guix package --action2 --action1 # (b) > > in other words, the fix should be to simply 'reverse opts' and the CLI > will read (a) instead of the current (b). My only concern is about > backward compatibility. We=E2=80=99ll need to check exactly what will behave differently. If the t= ests don=E2=80=99t catch anything, I think we=E2=80=99re fine. Most likely, we= =E2=80=99re talking about corner cases like =E2=80=98-S x -d y=E2=80=99, which probably very fe= w people tried. Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 12 05:54:40 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2020 09:54:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54296 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYRcV-0006bw-W8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 05:54:40 -0400 Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([95.128.36.40]:25544) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYRcU-0006bX-6Q for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 05:54:39 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by ext-mx-out003.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B59D8404BC for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 12 May 2020 11:54:31 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freedommail.ch; h=content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:date:date :subject:subject:from:from:received:received:received; s= dkim20160331; t=1589277271; x=1591091672; bh=QvkIXp1Zq+LXGRriMrh XiETs/HWXX60ghHlzgJqCscM=; b=uQs+magaHNNtdTEp0KDDqIwkhSMuonm+Di7 Rp8v7N2241TO3nRSPzrazv6NpdCwXENzBJtI9kPVMJKxejfreJl3oY/5i/2ePAhv EZyOXgWo+VIq9JNEjk9d74orHCv40Hm1podHo42gGggxFDJwSXc5ouaqDgV+8p3c oN906kRefaQyndQRjZS525MP3HELOa1Vn11oV+Qo/nUOiHwt19kx0SXQ/b2kBPW+ qu2DrvfKkbFHZ4HkhW9Pd7/Zg/eFtIci1NjeV+XGFfGHEPV655xDZIcaQImkW3/b Leq0M+GznTjnP3Jwgd4mWBoCEPHbZJE1DnoOC2pc/S6PwTgoSM0p0ceNXlwitvby vHGnsczSYpSbQhRK0GZmw5ADktcJ3wZyqc1i3QfV9vzwM1NfeBsDVdCzTCZGlf6F S+z0/njZWbpTGa7FDdglPEStqDxxHDr1hpUVr+8ICpOf41Tnv6VYIefvG6GBZZ1I EmNbq4UQKfQM/jN1Rdombc4OVRpOv5xs5Su+TUZ6IoCbUo5O5i/AUmQo+B2X+lAG 9xdxJtY86OqxDWxtKf9aM++aW+un+BgF+FS1ELFK/6voxse5jM4fyfr2CMa847IK 4nP273EmgmqxQACLlq7XqE0wvTWqM8lav3tlFksTetYq5MGBrqmUkTcGdGBOKy2I vkXXSQv4= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mykolab.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-10 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ext-mx-out003.mykolab.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vsdo8mlkN2EY for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 12 May 2020 11:54:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from int-mx001.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.13.1]) by ext-mx-out003.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4483940439 for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 12 May 2020 11:54:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ext-subm003.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.6.3]) by int-mx001.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02AB2216 for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 12 May 2020 11:54:30 +0200 (CEST) From: Tom Zander To: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 11:54:29 +0200 Message-ID: <5652466.lOV4Wx5bFT@cherry> In-Reply-To: <87mu6dcz8v.fsf@gnu.org> References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <87mu6dcz8v.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On dinsdag 12 mei 2020 10:51:28 CEST Ludovic Court=E8s wrote: > Nothing new here, and everything is properly documented. The bugreport was not about a disconnect between documentation and the tool, the bugreport is a usability bug which stems from the fact that the command= =20 line parser behaves differently from every single other commandline parser= =20 average people like me have ever used. A near 100% of the command line tools on your Gnu/Linux box will behave=20 differently than guix does now. C apps using libc, python apps using their parser, even C++ apps using the = Qt=20 commandline classes, all are generally compatible with regards to behavior. Only Guix is different. > However (srfi srfi-37) does it as we see it now. Fixing it would mean > implementing a different option parser. Then fix that parser. It is inconsistent with the rest of the world and as = long=20 as it is end-user-facing this inconsistency is a usability bug. A rather=20 massive one, I might say as this is about as core to the user-interaction o= f=20 the platform as it can get. =2D-=20 Tom Zander From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 12 06:39:09 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2020 10:39:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54333 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYSJY-0007rr-Qg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 06:39:09 -0400 Received: from mail-qv1-f47.google.com ([209.85.219.47]:40048) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYSJX-0007rV-KG for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 06:39:08 -0400 Received: by mail-qv1-f47.google.com with SMTP id l3so763752qvo.7 for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 12 May 2020 03:39:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8gLfvs8yvVe7J5uZEX4iYAdHPqkjKOGLrgAXy40Pvy0=; b=M1ko82jVJvQd3xbf/mxfkF3wj/kvAk4zi0x0csG4AMKs866SftlPwgfMe6QOMfGgXy 1Bf2QsjE2v4ZVKR9JzX8drz5C4UvbBGhxuhaLRHnRq1J2g8QbPKU6cv538lIjsYxYUTx i2062S7zZ7a0Y68kXBCapiUWhoJsA0xt0Y/jU3i6v9XEU9EM9QGBBsmMFzYXt1kHDtH9 IEShkNEwDzjI9Yu562NiwPB8xtNI4rI1BjUP7juPhrB005/HEgeruY+lUtCvuIH8igjC sRg7DkB/Hgd5GTaepXVEbNdylnm+YjruX3NkSaxWCBA3Ynm7bAFG5hxxepm/EGsmkqdA fXAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8gLfvs8yvVe7J5uZEX4iYAdHPqkjKOGLrgAXy40Pvy0=; b=TC2gKFf/QMCFSyr6OSDFqkMUwFoBS/56tJLXdMy7CR9aA7Slxv7WLuUZvzMKOIYfe1 zYtUgb0jBXZCePOYut9Pq2rIMN0Eyjug+OuIFdGqcd5JW8R9pBEecMoq6EFwzOyIcWsY 5bmRRbF4dR2YQVtWStH4B5ApFiButy4EZ0g5bxahNS9AfT4oU4VLGa8BISV6rytUjyit GjrvblDqqUg+0/wktMbkwIn/7aN8HdUiqQkTXujNqrJXJzUkQMAX+MqoHSpu/OveOJuh Z2Fg3xz+dA0X3crNGU//R/W1hBJyty8mvPL1tezGgLljT8HRKiTDWjmZX9UtKRK6lPoL df6w== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYV7wxeWs9Jna5dCkgEk3/h2uRMAYu7JvXvs97AmszzWWZ4O4Y+ 5b3qMB3hmmMsfx0nw9hix0+ehfsh/p7r8gt0F3E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLuy+0u3WQnSf9iuF4BswervZ7kSt30EzHH8DyNjAs7W5lIBupRIUeXiwcFiv/rkcYAbaKCdz8wyEPW+4uIwFs= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4c92:: with SMTP id bs18mr20177778qvb.67.1589279941747; Tue, 12 May 2020 03:39:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <3827671.e9J7NaK4W3@peach> <87mu6dcz8v.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <87mu6dcz8v.fsf@gnu.org> From: zimoun Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 12:38:50 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org, Tom X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Ludo, Sorry, I am not compliant and reorder your quotes to ease the discussion -- from my point of view. :-) On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 10:51, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: > However (srfi srfi-37) does it as we see it now. Fixing it would mean > implementing a different option parser. Yes or add a lot of complexity. Both appears to me wrong. Such corner cases do not deserve one or the othe= r. > I think there are option parsers that =E2=80=9Ccorrectly=E2=80=9D deal wi= th the > ambiguity that arises for instance with =E2=80=9C-I -p foo=E2=80=9D (is = =E2=80=98-p=E2=80=99 the > argument to =E2=80=98-I=E2=80=99 or something else?). Perhaps libc=E2=80= =99s argp does it > right. I have never deeply dove into srfi-37 and 'option' but from my understanding, it is not possible. Somehow, the issue comes from srfi-37 and srfi-37 should consider that if an argument starts with dash, then it is not an argument and turn it into an option. > Nothing new here, and everything is properly documented. I am not sure. The manual says, for example: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- =E2=80=98--list-installed[=3DREGEXP]=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98-I [REGEXP]=E2=80=99 List the currently installed packages in the specified profile, with the most recently installed packages shown last. When REGEXP is specified, list only installed packages whose name matches REGEXP. --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- which is somehow inaccurate. The REGEXP is not optional for the short option '-I'. And that's true for all the short options with optional argument, if I understand correctly. For example, "guix package -d -p /path/to/profile" fails. Moreover, the distinction between 'action' and 'query' is already stated so why not underline that composing actions make sense (transaction) but composing query not? > > However, main of us are used to read from left to right so it seems > > more natural to write: > > > > guix package --action1 --action2 # (a) > > than > > guix package --action2 --action1 # (b) > > > > in other words, the fix should be to simply 'reverse opts' and the CLI > > will read (a) instead of the current (b). My only concern is about > > backward compatibility. > > We=E2=80=99ll need to check exactly what will behave differently. If the= tests > don=E2=80=99t catch anything, I think we=E2=80=99re fine. Most likely, w= e=E2=80=99re talking > about corner cases like =E2=80=98-S x -d y=E2=80=99, which probably very = few people > tried. Ok, on this light, let first point the corner cases. All the best, simon From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 12 07:35:23 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2020 11:35:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54415 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYTBz-0002xU-At for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 07:35:23 -0400 Received: from mail-qk1-f195.google.com ([209.85.222.195]:36339) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYTBx-0002xD-3T for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 07:35:22 -0400 Received: by mail-qk1-f195.google.com with SMTP id y22so488106qki.3 for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 12 May 2020 04:35:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5CdjpwHg0akNOKPYxAZVBC/fBhTl6iZfT6OTU9uOnC0=; b=NbcTSv7tSKvF1sYHLVT28Jt2Ly90MmMUcdJCIC6RvVsU/zamE0EpH5oxEX0wODTM6X qyt9Z67ZQG5t2iGQyEwIq2dmVA1UwKBryfggRhI1nfugpRiImMivFXPTSptAm/jOFzFZ 2hmiffsHhKLl5XhJzxrkk4cgG4ZaK9PFCFqZnrjsbUO1n4tyBgqKT619smzFY3Cc+77U 1l0wQBYg6ShYFGNJEo9o6QQ1LHqO/XT+EqWVvwKGZ01lM3xlUu3hM27l9IEk9emRm9p6 1hUWbvEgzjPA9CAx4XDQxQnNV84RO2Ydgl5qK90awdT2iDKnKxHJ3tDy3bZd+kpixFs2 w0zQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5CdjpwHg0akNOKPYxAZVBC/fBhTl6iZfT6OTU9uOnC0=; b=ruR+SlsCDXWKMCRxhcfrS/oIp4SI+iNzonm2xKVDyuO/HQZWHOUAkWiVOjq4sJxkhi 5DIz9S4a0R24lNHFkd13Y1L5SG8BmaZPjIzhOUjOKZHjSy0a5hXPNNTu0jPgOf6TDbTI hezktQgNP+mxcp+yEyldIyoDHnUx96/1bgTtTFg/t9USBLFk5rdDk7nkOO+tueDyhoJP kjJy15kM2muirKAJ4Tkh5/c3VOYVgHBwy8IlGv9iFUP7Ri3CxzQgUahjBt0LdVpLHn7S 5pLWN+ykZIsuuKMJxzxx5mfXETtBW1v5qG9iCSP0K5Ed41wQWHXFnX0MagIPWQUYOa+G 8uJA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Puag0GOUagofr/jTMHPzFSdvrufvNh8w/x2nv5A5UClBCbkX63Wj MjC97BUxBCtSOkjtWNYsIHFNS7d/XK7BbVGihll4oKgg X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKrMUkf/r6YBUhes2t8NHRGNu55+x+igjxv5nXT3qnoLdta0cU5x4kjeuzIL3aE+8cQoYiBw/Lq8UQwZq/jNyw= X-Received: by 2002:a37:96c4:: with SMTP id y187mr20795382qkd.126.1589283315465; Tue, 12 May 2020 04:35:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <87mu6dcz8v.fsf@gnu.org> <5652466.lOV4Wx5bFT@cherry> In-Reply-To: <5652466.lOV4Wx5bFT@cherry> From: zimoun Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 13:35:04 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: To: Tom Zander Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 11:55, Tom Zander via Bug reports for GNU Guix wrote: > the bugreport is a usability bug which stems from the fact that the command > line parser behaves differently from every single other commandline parser > average people like me have ever used. > > A near 100% of the command line tools on your Gnu/Linux box will behave > differently than guix does now. > > C apps using libc, python apps using their parser, even C++ apps using the Qt > commandline classes, all are generally compatible with regards to behavior. > > Only Guix is different. Could you provide concrete examples? Other than "guix package"? And other than short-option with optional argument? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 12 09:03:36 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2020 13:03:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54541 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYUZJ-0007Mf-17 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 09:03:36 -0400 Received: from mail-qt1-f175.google.com ([209.85.160.175]:35401) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYUZH-0007MR-2X for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 09:03:31 -0400 Received: by mail-qt1-f175.google.com with SMTP id x8so10801521qtr.2 for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 12 May 2020 06:03:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=JHDIHVTlqc4ijzORcdVJZSXIK0VSQL2BVm5GyRQUD6M=; b=NEiXKKMt7Ng4tsv58XTxumJo/2LJXHWJlnmfJwSsVKCQn8lK4iDSAZ/76RYOrI1Oe9 Zjqk+5fbu+UhwkKDhhMp2bn3QKld3pSbOO1P6G3kuSObuLo2dpUx1RxkZps4n11K9GrM e+XAIHzFHFvT+1Ih8Ej5p3Rnig1D3qIoXJba/zwWvztsnlE8mQ/Kzv+ZiGdKlmg8YZmd e9f8uf8SLA9ibqtsAWC15lUU20m/b+HEOMiXuUP+p1ViCRRtU0YNytyu+NdzFOKy40o5 fldjN59Fz8D0RKdYQVHnxcGcm8WJBuA2vbLPCnsmOHwRAz2sneCZxzvJBISELLeTp2ow 3dxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=JHDIHVTlqc4ijzORcdVJZSXIK0VSQL2BVm5GyRQUD6M=; b=Jyi/D+XhTyzuaPARMme0q4wvZwtPCfv/VGOoy9ipTs3aOPasAESvCYMpkT6jaFT8eS MNNZzvoEIwHu+7CtcuKWrpFBGbZ7Aj2kpmC1V3dWuy3Z5e94zrBS0wRAlffQySu6fGEC 6Gd7vaKkZvJEMiXtlhGTnqU8npNaPQO5mv/ZNis8P6jWGR8YEdDHltvYH3JlHbzUlOyJ ZLk+tgLFwYIM1MZfzTuPmyHxbS2NTI4A69xmwWncQRtXhDeNLxlf85sXIYgAcmkLXRcc 2v2yL0sWRMz9QupFSKbIQfa0g1B/MBrZ9m5BxeZisJMYq0sT2I0zmxBlJmd2T4yId2EA 1oeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaXZ0YhZLHghe921J0kSvrw5WfaYZ1lp2eCuSPowjAwpb8tZGrB fP0ztZVP0iV6P750ka30QPge5Oz0XaaBvs5x+oujHY2I X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypI2ilctpUh3XYQmEfwurmNkv5XAZ2TL00oYSo1vHLxNVvYE6eJNrSfJM8GOCijds5M3cp2XPgRtFD1GJPxJYos= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5047:: with SMTP id h7mr16915721qtm.186.1589288605292; Tue, 12 May 2020 06:03:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: zimoun Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 15:03:14 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: proposal for 'process-actions' To: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= , Tom X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi again, :-) On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 12:38, zimoun wrote: > > We=E2=80=99ll need to check exactly what will behave differently. If t= he tests > > don=E2=80=99t catch anything, I think we=E2=80=99re fine. Most likely,= we=E2=80=99re talking > > about corner cases like =E2=80=98-S x -d y=E2=80=99, which probably ver= y few people > > tried. > > Ok, on this light, let first point the corner cases. The only corner cases are the '%actions' (roll-back, delete-generation, switch-generation). There are processed in reversed order as they appear on the command-line -- because 'for-each' and 'assoc-ref'. However, the transaction plan is always the same: step0 process %actions step1 remove step2 install step3 manifest Therefore, I propose to split the 'for-each' on '%actions' into fixed steps, such as the transaction always happens using this plan: 1. roll-back 2. switch-generation 3. delete-generation 4. remove 5. install 6 manifest On one hand, it reduces the "power" of combining '-S', '-d' and '--roll-back'. On the other hand, it enforces commutativity which is somehow what we want a transaction to be. If yes, I can come up with a patch. All the best, simon From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 12 09:59:04 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2020 13:59:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56279 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYVR2-0002s3-ES for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 09:59:04 -0400 Received: from mail-qk1-f194.google.com ([209.85.222.194]:41360) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYVR1-0002rW-2R for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 09:59:03 -0400 Received: by mail-qk1-f194.google.com with SMTP id n14so13607736qke.8 for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 12 May 2020 06:59:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lmEn2u/A9MguYT7fxcXYp5LnhNCo2Vy3DU97M+dWY/E=; b=VRpnugIerY25U1rqYSSVY9L6dVg3JXH+NpYSE+X5hHPjsg/aA/7zKIzyHAWTzKAumQ a0MFfHYGWSXd952+5U5o+67euuiMsqGk1PXbpaq+3vtZl5poFNIxGJxLxRLODryjxOjT yShDquAw6hPq3WjdT6UQvEL/t3p4IpD0aUUSlt/90rkRyqFg+h5bWcWuZpwc7r30s/IO yoovYhzpT0ESZqeb5vzCgw92DWUv4CQJfQAW8vTmwJ+gsblCWoW2FpJ9lQHSWsRH7WgI IyNCavDDmluHYfVipH5eduKcbrpZpjP2b2yJVEfdDEv1zjiGR/C5cCDRURHJXMjsm0Qx duAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lmEn2u/A9MguYT7fxcXYp5LnhNCo2Vy3DU97M+dWY/E=; b=g67+aJnlwaKLCpxCZBysruAlLBFQak+cdC5cwxNJe7tzzd2XJxmMuHjKWVrrEgek/d 59ie+nMIk5CnIQYmqybn/QfjIUYdoV+3W5EXPOIa+Dbvjyipor6ZZztNSAyNbeMgVw46 4EwOXn5yB2U5+4Rd66adQJwTKjqPRbv0kVjw+R39ZdANG3yZXP4kWezbOTfmWpbXbqzc 6H2tRxIYAmaWzlOqV7jdAY/jJwGUtspD3LY6lVgOsYJ3KV28OlvkIcHRsUk6lL94VllB 2TrdJfhsnWtW3ku5wK+A+IcRvTnaCap94WBP+t8nhd+K4qQoueFE9ilqNF2qPO8C4Twh 9dNA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZRN4bUwECoKKwy7vxM5pBFXBHAvo3O+bpCLXRvR/QYvJbey5Qc y6hpCPgajlQGPbUavGfY3F5AD7n+wDLV1oEpjCY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLcumgOsMt6afJsUoSBlYuXFvRAmmu970g2R9jpJ7RT7/G9v0nrQGfKr8wAQfMYzpSfLaKz6PPYwjpT1GFZbBc= X-Received: by 2002:a37:4e05:: with SMTP id c5mr20963424qkb.232.1589291937401; Tue, 12 May 2020 06:58:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <3827671.e9J7NaK4W3@peach> <87mu6dcz8v.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <87mu6dcz8v.fsf@gnu.org> From: zimoun Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 15:58:45 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org, Tom X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 10:51, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: > Nothing new here, and everything is properly documented. Using optional argument with short-option names is unusual, AFAIK. And for sure, there is an ambiguity; as we are seeing here. :-) However, the only mention of that is in the commentaries of srfi-37. --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- ;;; `required-arg?' and `optional-arg?' are mutually exclusive ;;; booleans and indicate whether an argument must be or may be ;;; provided. Besides the obvious, this affects semantics of ;;; short-options, as short-options with a required or optional ;;; argument cannot be followed by other short options in the same ;;; program-arguments string, as they will be interpreted collectively ;;; as the option's argument. --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guile.git/tree/module/srfi/srfi-37.scm#n51 Well, using short-option with optional-argument is not recommended by POSIX, neither GNU (if I understand well) https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007904975/basedefs/xbd_chap12.html#ta= g_12_02 https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Argument-Syntax.html Therefore, it deserves to document it, IMHO. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 12 10:10:49 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2020 14:10:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56288 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYVcP-0003BX-3R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 10:10:49 -0400 Received: from mail-qt1-f178.google.com ([209.85.160.178]:38340) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYVcN-0003BJ-SH for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 10:10:48 -0400 Received: by mail-qt1-f178.google.com with SMTP id i68so11115886qtb.5 for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 12 May 2020 07:10:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9bEyOdaoG9dko3NhgTL3olohXlBFwadnWDj+c8cInFc=; b=SWZrOmgGWddQ+RfT8PU9DTa6dMJ9hQn7+UnlZM7XbFJ9Tm6Mneszx1m+0WPPkWSKgP O+YHge4XelUi+FMZjwZWl/IZGkEl1rhVsyT8s8O6Lmw0osiMiqORGkiNYnZH5RQs/FEi 33VsmwxGsLGFLwtx678kEB98icbzysoHwj1WtDdm/yVatTrVxO7qn48t05XETeISN6LE fwXAhDbTKZJ1BmQul0fnLUyy9R1GPbAiolsPw4b/k2wUZu6Xi7LV86xFIpefiqG1aD+O teNN1jtiMbWSxsX7KoVfmabyxgBUcN9IzUVSSuYKs1vM1LLi/j5PaDytWo/x3rLhj1xh sc5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9bEyOdaoG9dko3NhgTL3olohXlBFwadnWDj+c8cInFc=; b=pGC85CqOdIwS1ooJZJoGX90NHaSR/E8DB/VTcKu1cEN1n4e0kZYwupIX0cyHABurTG MRLwuNSI5n7FUMgtnD0kzxBQCeJHLQdPRhcvziaPQQTdLkqlPNS+wU23ejtnefm1iDSF P+anfdwQ4woQTq6fO+X7ux0uQttAE8rLHIXnUqGB0yHYvwX2OByLrN1ZWJHI94EvblX4 b0iBQBDxOLZS20iZVAPurrQxmfVNv3U7Igvzvsjm+cS1ETPzm62DnGAGClNsoH/dcPir dwwxESaBqt+kMVTzWSRafYRCE/yuiYs4WxdZT48brGHNKskdh5MDd7LqHhHaftsdgFDA QW1g== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYy3kIw4pqY7YR/IjDQcx3zYbLK8PauKLx3Hlqspij3KzctUcpO UmuQUqOgwGbKCR7yfbUgdqK/2we6K9aX0VvgZKU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLCiSORZHl0pJMGtSvxrn/GaYMak459LsT7anL/82rYYIQQ1V4+D0R/MlQkC83mzku1+4sRs/QtN7uXgSI+SbM= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5047:: with SMTP id h7mr17255076qtm.186.1589292641918; Tue, 12 May 2020 07:10:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <87mu6dcz8v.fsf@gnu.org> <5652466.lOV4Wx5bFT@cherry> In-Reply-To: <5652466.lOV4Wx5bFT@cherry> From: zimoun Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 16:10:29 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: To: Tom Zander Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Dear Tom, On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 11:55, Tom Zander via Bug reports for GNU Guix wrote: [...] > C apps using libc, python apps using their parser, even C++ apps using the Qt > commandline classes, all are generally compatible with regards to behavior. > > Only Guix is different. Please could you indicate me command-line tools where short-option with optional-argument is possible. Because if there is one, I could have inspiration to know how it resolves the ambiguity. > > However (srfi srfi-37) does it as we see it now. Fixing it would mean > > implementing a different option parser. > > Then fix that parser. It is inconsistent with the rest of the world and as long > as it is end-user-facing this inconsistency is a usability bug. A rather > massive one, I might say as this is about as core to the user-interaction of > the platform as it can get. The parser is not inconsistent with the rest of the world. Or please indicate with concrete examples what is wrong. The issue is that Guix uses a bad practise: option with optional-argument with both short and long name. It is a mistake to provide the short-name for such case. Thank you for the report. Now all this is clearer for me and I do not think it is a fixable bug. All the best, simon From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 12 12:23:26 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2020 16:23:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56392 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYXgj-0006eq-Lu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 12:23:25 -0400 Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([95.128.36.40]:32554) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYXgh-0006eZ-K9 for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 12:23:25 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by ext-mx-out003.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B8840788; Tue, 12 May 2020 18:23:17 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freedommail.ch; h=content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:date:date :subject:subject:from:from:received:received:received; s= dkim20160331; t=1589300595; x=1591114996; bh=NDY7VFbqFLuQjJaaRA/ pE5vMABTmYa1/KMDUkEVC7Uk=; b=IFLuAVGE0FK+1/ByykioEOaCOYKYd26LNEn zTChAUn6a/CIKAfKjaX9aCPUs9r7LXg24bDLGdOWJXDMvpMIBeIx1gnwFxb6D5+f 7hH4GOsAPrboXhC7qO63K9lGiuvl7Jg3hv6mbQ4eoYWBKBxWk/G2hUOK9C/Ubejh 34wATDnjQVQjwDI48Ud9Ztx5WFdQpkuWq8Xy8mocndZu37DIGAYvYzD4soNntn82 6PzIyfSy2WtjntZwDMFfVwcaw8uJKuseRDaxbiS3UR0da8z4vj7tUJ9ANvJFdS3H 6upcbuSSt/PUf4cDYDz6ZTwogvHUfanMUZ/3e/oDVnhcN4ZUfvqUDQfdxSBU9A0F nURvdbj+lX/poi4GKQe8UBB5BthcxJPFjqayS/DWLJJcLXxF/IaWgRSm6D3iutSP QmAYvc+fRbpa0b2kM1IeMrc2tkkOSiRZo+eCrQOl5kXz3/o/2Sk4kFJLJxLxsCRV 0hQcUwbxNcfIkFacUOqf6y7qVmphWOsJG5BSpw6MhEIi08OAwcRPMY0sjn9EccRY M+lpXAIf6mLbUIHFEDn4cTcQNrZM23EsDF/lAUST1A9pC3PU8PbhgUNn+VrvppiL 13zUY05pftzamIJ9ogoapUGjVvpBnvDZIo4TMqBYRrcja+rM10pdjKZkjMUcJl5p QvTnBJNU= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mykolab.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-10 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ext-mx-out003.mykolab.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A6TLwrCPSl2N; Tue, 12 May 2020 18:23:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from int-mx002.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.13.2]) by ext-mx-out003.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAE6A40589; Tue, 12 May 2020 18:23:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ext-subm002.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.6.2]) by int-mx002.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6880E2366; Tue, 12 May 2020 18:23:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Tom Zander To: zimoun Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 18:23:13 +0200 Message-ID: <1804825.CQOukoFCf9@cherry> In-Reply-To: References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <5652466.lOV4Wx5bFT@cherry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On dinsdag 12 mei 2020 13:35:04 CEST zimoun wrote: > On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 11:55, Tom Zander via Bug reports for GNU Guix > > wrote: > > the bugreport is a usability bug which stems from the fact that the > > command > > line parser behaves differently from every single other commandline parser > > average people like me have ever used. > > > > A near 100% of the command line tools on your Gnu/Linux box will behave > > differently than guix does now. > > > > C apps using libc, python apps using their parser, even C++ apps using the > > Qt commandline classes, all are generally compatible with regards to > > behavior. > > > > Only Guix is different. > > Could you provide concrete examples? Other than "guix package"? > And other than short-option with optional argument? This report lists two items. Indeed the short options are a good one. It is unheard of to have an alias not be an alias but behave differently. It also can't be said to be documented as the --help output does not actually state this. I only learned this difference today :-) The other is the ordering of arguments being parsed unpredictable. The usecase given was the `-d 1 -S 2` arguments (see earlier emails for details). > Please could you indicate me command-line tools where short-option > with optional-argument is possible. > Because if there is one, I could have inspiration to know how it > resolves the ambiguity. The design of the short options is that it is an alias. Identical to the software regardless of what the user typed. So you get 'cut --field 1' or 'cut -f1' or 'cut -f 1' or 'cut -f=1'. All identical. The important part here is that each _option_ is written separately, with a leading dash. When you talk about flags you can group them. `mv -vufi` is again identical to `mv -v -u -f -i`. But this is irrelevant to your question because, as stated, this is about _flags_, not option. You asked for an example; see `git commit -S`. From the manpage: -S[], --gpg-sign[=] > The issue is that Guix uses a bad practise: option with optional-argument > with both short and long name. It is a mistake to provide the short-name > for such case. It looks like the parser could be improved by preferring to see any argument with leading dash as a option when it **might** be an argument. So; if you type -`guix package -l --help` then your parser **first** finds all the items with leading dashes and second it tries to find out if there is an argument for the `-l`. In this case I expect the help to be shown. This is widely seen as a solution. Users can still use items with leading dashes by using two commonly used tricks. The -l=a type of construction allows the argument to be anything. Including it having a leading dash. Second is the double-dash argument that stops words leading with dashes being parsed as options. For instance; grep -- -v * the -v is parsed as an actual string and not an option because it follows the double dashes. > Now all this is clearer for me and I do not think it is a fixable bug. It is, just follow the suggestion from me and from zimoun: any command-line- argument that starts with a dash should be preferred to be an option. Only in a second phase do you try to match anything to (optional) options. As stated, the rest of the world does this, please check out the various examples I gave here to confirm that others have solved it and it may be possible to solve it for guix too. -- Tom Zander From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 12 12:26:30 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2020 16:26:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56397 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYXji-0006jx-7n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 12:26:30 -0400 Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([95.128.36.42]:62114) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYXjg-0006jj-SM for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 12:26:29 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by ext-mx-out002.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D97E9FC; Tue, 12 May 2020 18:26:23 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freedommail.ch; h=content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:date:date :subject:subject:from:from:received:received:received; s= dkim20160331; t=1589300782; x=1591115183; bh=PwTCfacKVy8prSvlS10 swCulu60doj6oG7FsFPCe7ig=; b=OCYvFkoXO/A18CNxaqX92t8h7KpSJ+cGKtv ZtyikF16vjjhCAjGUKvqwTuhUiOOUelMrxK9EalnoGl9y7d14DS/HWdFt1Gz9/wQ OvbDm/9b88PC83wj+c5DK5ORXwk/OOJPlyMMUT1CZlauYhLZS/jICZW/FsW5PaF/ N3jOl25XGGcEbX2ue9vqquNwx/2TfG/Ewhnag66GPCyzefaEMdJvk6L7FssBi/MM VEvDLT5/ENXTY24hdBTY3JJBvCJzQ+jSa1YeLTTKY2MuulJ3YB1WTOOv9Zfg4pmg bBwIRJySXnb6qpFdOOAixayOkHbDDbtrG8uLh8w5GIEFEmZCw0NDY+XDxGlhHXQZ aTa7g1U0mB5JxKpDxnF+6CFciQaC+5+F/DoGZzN41cJK7m1XVoUc1RfABZOQippV ama9WqLAoLjCpQfupLRbx3/0p0cv6xC0K0d2LcOdIQGn1eQzCj1wV8KkzRfem2Kx GhweHAGFjyPH98FBvGLBLqQMgzjPWH9cvXbZjrEqkl/SuUhtvc1pRVrGPUbW45+B GQE5EKjaM+R5eZpdUxVRwAwp47pt/OrzflLM1nDNAIg4kC1z0G4nyjMnZhpPgjYR CWmkbHxMpYrL3PCcJ4RmvIPsdvENqDSEzqrYjpNxA+abX4t30G7dYkuxVIWvEEL5 5Xlln1t4= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mykolab.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-10 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ext-mx-out002.mykolab.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ha9YUL3g0UH9; Tue, 12 May 2020 18:26:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from int-mx003.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.13.3]) by ext-mx-out002.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C238D40C; Tue, 12 May 2020 18:26:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ext-subm001.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.6.1]) by int-mx003.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B621B55; Tue, 12 May 2020 18:26:22 +0200 (CEST) From: Tom Zander To: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org, zimoun Subject: Re: proposal for 'process-actions' Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 18:26:20 +0200 Message-ID: <2468105.Lt9SDvczpP@cherry> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: Ludovic =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Court=E8s?= X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On dinsdag 12 mei 2020 15:03:14 CEST zimoun wrote: > If yes, I can come up with a patch. I think that would be much improved, yes. -- Tom Zander From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 12 14:08:52 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2020 18:08:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56480 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYZKl-00034P-TP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 14:08:52 -0400 Received: from mail-qt1-f169.google.com ([209.85.160.169]:42099) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYZKk-00034C-1h for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 14:08:50 -0400 Received: by mail-qt1-f169.google.com with SMTP id x12so11894801qts.9 for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 12 May 2020 11:08:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pF5zYgaQ5M3r5xolYm/CH9Dz6fMhxYbeQi8wsNVLJpc=; b=edBdBQBIxdurZLS447l1wGjTkQzBN8ViwnYw95lHGBRc6vzSpYfDXd/dbK9ewi3YIy l8wgjuRmmG6gpv1KFPmCpptdO4u3x7oXL8/lgo6wtecq8kBXaZ2/ykanRpCe41tFbKKr RP8hA8GRFlxRicZj15WL9SmWdVt6tVDNsn8HFsLu7Ivr2DdeOKWDaxBC0zCsgq73azSJ WG+W8ZZW2vLCug4lSLQVXdwRy7GybvzZ6XeFRZDOU9s9qKwCgToF5Z0MWYPwQiBzxhvQ IzPBHCmKK2NbXeIj/n4jOiZ5VS4Sh7EwxOpZON+nlLXvRhQHlcuF/jGpHaroYp81GZH7 fLGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pF5zYgaQ5M3r5xolYm/CH9Dz6fMhxYbeQi8wsNVLJpc=; b=p9H2uTeDIf7leSyLGyDNq/nlWdU/03523IF8SDn2XKKTTqnMUem30xxWP+RcS6xeED seAv8SqFY3OhTZzU55evOBS9p//2QDPhnFodctpQqjkcLbPVlqYb8CAqRuRLp86ThdRb XyGCGyhFdcpfk8SX/ZcvmzRIGkIUXRm59owzrdinh4YDkdYW5ZiX7uCp2ryHCwOVYScy 1Gt6uSennwWdStkcpKPiWe91DILdJ3Ou0uaPO+lqmLm1dVE57ZcyuVcPB6t3Z/XAkNeJ 1V0erivhAKUY2EroyHZKclsZ1Ygm4LffGXSIPP5ToYParwl13N0e4xXe3V8xIRP98ZUV QqiA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaflKnRuonKQvwbFGpP9/CPKNnzuSmf8BIz8PPPcw47rLaVbJW2 dA49ED02knVXz6jhKhE6eh4bZZWXD6xIVJ+jpb7F3lMI X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypI8qYOx1QKS/jRXOCddZhTr49svoe3Cq6SYQz0m7e6zvvs4Em1YlvV99U1sChiUkv9SYcPEqNX7vl9Eb1Pmkcg= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2db0:: with SMTP id p45mr20735487qta.354.1589306924154; Tue, 12 May 2020 11:08:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <5652466.lOV4Wx5bFT@cherry> <1804825.CQOukoFCf9@cherry> In-Reply-To: <1804825.CQOukoFCf9@cherry> From: zimoun Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 20:08:32 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: To: Tom Zander Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Dear Tom, On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 18:23, Tom Zander wrote: > The other is the ordering of arguments being parsed unpredictable. > The usecase given was the `-d 1 -S 2` arguments (see earlier emails for > details). Fix for that coming soon. :-) Thank you for the report. > > Please could you indicate me command-line tools where short-option > > with optional-argument is possible. > > Because if there is one, I could have inspiration to know how it > > resolves the ambiguity. > > The design of the short options is that it is an alias. Identical to the > software regardless of what the user typed. Yes. But AFAIU, it is hard -- not impossible -- to detect what is an argument or what is another option in the case of optional argument in the short-name form. Because it leads to ambiguous parsing. > So you get 'cut --field 1' or 'cut -f1' or 'cut -f 1' or 'cut -f=3D1'. > All identical. > The important part here is that each _option_ is written separately, with= a > leading dash. And try "cut -f -d' '", it raises the error "cut: invalid field value =E2= =80=98d =E2=80=99". All short-name and long-name are ``equivalent`` when they do not require any argument -- for example with cut: -s, --only-delimited -- *_or_* they require one argument -- for example: -f, --fields=3DLIST. But there is an ambiguity for optional argument. How do you detect if the argument is provided or not? With the long-name, it is done with the character '=3D'. For short-name, it is ambiguous. Imagine that "guix package" has in addition to '-S' the option '-2' meaning verbosity to level 2 (--verbosity=3D2). Then what is the meaning of: guix package -S -2 ? Is it equivalent to + --switch-generation=3D-2 or + --switch-generation --verbose=3D2 ? > You asked for an example; see `git commit -S`. From the manpage: > > -S[], --gpg-sign[=3D] Thank you for the example. Let me show you that it raises an issue too because it is not so "simple". :-) --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- mv ~/.gnupg ~/.gnupg.bak gpg --gen-key gpg --list-keys mkdir -p /tmp/foo touch /tmp/foo/bar git -C /tmp/foo init git -C /tmp/foo/ add bar git commit -S -m 'init' error: gpg failed to sign the data fatal: failed to write commit object git -C /tmp/foo commit -S 4417B7AADBEFFBEBE4C201271A6DD2B6218BF4B3 -m 'init= ' error: pathspec '4417B7AADBEFFBEBE4C201271A6DD2B6218BF4B3' did not match any file(s) known to git git -C /tmp/foo commit --gpg-sig=3D4417B7AADBEFFBEBE4C201271A6DD2B6218BF4B3 -m 'init' [master (root-commit) f4df0ff] init 1 file changed, 0 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-) create mode 100644 bar git config --global user.signingkey 4417B7AADBEFFBEBE4C201271A6DD2B6218BF4B= 3 echo ok > /tmp/foo/bar git -C /tmp/foo commit -S -am 'bis' [master 639c41e] bis 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+) --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- Maybe Git manual is lying. ;-) > > The issue is that Guix uses a bad practise: option with optional-argume= nt > > with both short and long name. It is a mistake to provide the short-n= ame > > for such case. > > It looks like the parser could be improved by preferring to see any argum= ent > with leading dash as a option when it **might** be an argument. It does not work for the general case as you describe. It is not so simple= . :-) Because '-d -1' means '--delete-generation=3D-1' and not '--delete-generati= on -1'. So considering the situation '-d -X', the parser needs to guess if '-X' is the argument of the option '-d' or if it is another option. Yes, it is possible but it is not so easy -- nor impossible -- because what does it means '-S -2d'? + --switch-generation=3D-2d or + --switch-generation --verbosity=3D2 --delete-generation >From my knowledge, all that is solved by the rule: no short option with optional argument. > So; if you type -`guix package -l --help` then your parser **first** find= s all > the items with leading dashes and second it tries to find out if there is= an > argument for the `-l`. > In this case I expect the help to be shown. > > This is widely seen as a solution. > Users can still use items with leading dashes by using two commonly used > tricks. > The -l=3Da type of construction allows the argument to be anything. Inclu= ding it > having a leading dash. > > Second is the double-dash argument that stops words leading with dashes b= eing > parsed as options. > For instance; grep -- -v * > the -v is parsed as an actual string and not an option because it follow= s the > double dashes. You miss the point, I believe. The issue of *any* parser is only for the "flag" with optional argument in their short-name form. Because, as I explained above, the syntax for such cases is ambiguous. Otherwise, the parser really behaves as you expect! > > Now all this is clearer for me and I do not think it is a fixable bug. > > It is, just follow the suggestion from me and from zimoun: any command-li= ne- > argument that starts with a dash should be preferred to be an option. Onl= y in > a second phase do you try to match anything to (optional) options. You are referring these lines [1] from me, right? --8<---------------cut here---------------start-------------->8--- srfi-37 should consider that if an argument starts with dash, then it is not an argument and turn it into an option. --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- I thought that and then I tried to fix it in the Guile implementation of SRFI-37 [2] and I learned [3] that it is not so simple, as I explained to you above. [1] http://issues.guix.gnu.org/40549#7 [2] http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guile.git/tree/module/srfi/srfi-37.scm [3] http://issues.guix.gnu.org/40549#10 > As stated, the rest of the world does this, please check out the various > examples I gave here to confirm that others have solved it and it may be > possible to solve it for guix too. Please consider that some people here are long standing GNU hackers. :-) So they might be the same ones that implemented the "rest of the world" too= . ;-) All the best, simon From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 12 16:19:34 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2020 20:19:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56572 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYbNF-0006TP-QU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 16:19:34 -0400 Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([95.128.36.41]:40038) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYbND-0006TB-Mh for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 16:19:32 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by ext-mx-out001.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC95AEE; Tue, 12 May 2020 22:19:25 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freedommail.ch; h=content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:date:date :subject:subject:from:from:received:received:received; s= dkim20160331; t=1589314764; x=1591129165; bh=VtLsPWcOvp+kKbXyf6T 91E7jjkcBwu52o8xNYVtkulM=; b=cHfmZ6lFEDXNt5/TW2bNVpAFPdInt51zYpX NJeu5stSQbQl17fBu7d/DUP9JYwk/XSplC25mNuexKb1m23ZAx6lEAUjAekf/rgK 56S2r/Q9AmYzwY5a4of13ilrZSoNu6M20fiMf1OvUa/AeawUXlD1EfxKouhpgv7G b5jWwyHi2Z+5Pe5Z1JhzG7MUHpJ+AxtdbCUhMCFDHY1mLRgZVZQAvDBqz+S6WLTq 7Q3kfD72mvmnTmw/HjkG/XDSpFeRYTCA9LBuOjlBpIgThUiJznZE4jHkXuUHSJQ6 UjRXTQZrLxe10F7V6+MKTHQ1qi5tQIDMiJu8Jm3pnCZf8/62ACjVsyJvi/QOtaJp /iauqk6MCqdjLFyc4nUXkBlxl44wLDnqrCn+KbDlSkfbK3nyxqbTspI5hHy9ZiI4 n8b0IXH3/zNiGtC7+SlUWwjR3WTCtrYpzuQpcHy4w5kzxPsr8b9lhaP/MTAqaCdN QsMEhrj4oNe7LMZwSzvbXANuvbm5yyuYh3pdg12M50GFQaG6l6J4aqplH2jwM3xe imKm0jcSsKkQLMU0112xPfqjs0j/oBAZP81QBsfI/SemCX2571nIC384uFx7EYEJ HhyO4QuWX3Pzk47jZHoMmOeMNxijJRLP5AkwSMq6S8u0BO1pZz4c4FA94vPZIDjB HtPK+V5c= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mykolab.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-10 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ext-mx-out001.mykolab.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bRDvjQnHnPzf; Tue, 12 May 2020 22:19:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from int-mx002.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.13.2]) by ext-mx-out001.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 545A212F; Tue, 12 May 2020 22:19:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ext-subm003.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.6.3]) by int-mx002.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F33D4380B; Tue, 12 May 2020 22:19:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Tom Zander To: zimoun Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 22:19:22 +0200 Message-ID: <5565734.MhkbZ0Pkbq@cherry> In-Reply-To: References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <1804825.CQOukoFCf9@cherry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On dinsdag 12 mei 2020 20:08:32 CEST zimoun wrote: > > The design of the short options is that it is an alias. Identical to the > > software regardless of what the user typed. >=20 > Yes. But AFAIU, it is hard -- not impossible -- to detect what is an > argument or what is another option in the case of optional argument in > the short-name form. Because it leads to ambiguous parsing. The solution here is to be consistent with the way that others do this. =46or those cases that you highlight the consistent solution elsewhere is=20 something you can apply here too. This follows the rule of the least surpri= se. =20 > And try "cut -f -d' '", it raises the error "cut: invalid field value =E2= =80=98d =E2=80=99". that is because -f has a required argument. As such I agree with your examp= le,=20 but ignore it because it is not relevant to our discussion. It is not an=20 optional short option. =20 > All short-name and long-name are ``equivalent`` when they do not > require any argument -- for example with cut: -s, --only-delimited -- > *_or_* they require one argument -- for example: -f, --fields=3DLIST. They are expected to always be equivalent. It would not be logical to have = the=20 short one as an alias if they are not equivalent. > But there is an ambiguity for optional argument. How do you detect if > the argument is provided or not? > With the long-name, it is done with the character '=3D'. > For short-name, it is ambiguous. Imagine that "guix package" has in The point here is that there exist rules that others use, to remove this=20 ambiguity. I'm trying to explain them to you to allow guix to behave the sa= me. I agree its tricky, the good thing is that it has been solved before. =46or instance you can provide an argument to short options without spaces = too: You can write `cut -f1 -d:`. > addition to '-S' the option '-2' meaning verbosity to level 2 > (--verbosity=3D2). Then what is the meaning of: >=20 > guix package -S -2 If the user meant the "-2" argument to be an argument to the -S option, the= y=20 would have to write (again, following the rules used by most software) as: echo "test" > -bla ls -I \-bla or, to comment on your specific example. In git you don't use the dash to h= ave=20 a negative, they use a different char. The tilde. Or dotdotdot. (think: ran= ge) git show HEAD~ git diff ...master > Is it equivalent to > + --switch-generation=3D-2 > or > + --switch-generation --verbose=3D2 In most software you would interpret any argument that starts with a dash a= s=20 an option. For consistency sake you would thus interpret your example as th= e=20 latter option. The user can specify what they mean, but preferably you pick your syntax=20 better to avoid the -2 in the example you gave :) > > You asked for an example; see `git commit -S`. From the manpage: > > -S[], --gpg-sign[=3D] >=20 > Thank you for the example. Let me show you that it raises an issue > too because it is not so "simple". :-) Easier example then: from the 'ls(1)' manpage: -I, --ignore=3DPATTERN seems git is trying to be smart. =20 > > It looks like the parser could be improved by preferring to see any > > argument with leading dash as a option when it **might** be an argument. >=20 > It does not work for the general case as you describe. It is not so simp= le. > :-) Because '-d -1' means '--delete-generation=3D-1' and not > '--delete-generation -1'. The point is consistency. The point is not to reinvent the wheel that have been invented so many=20 times... A command line parser is a known thing that you can, and should,=20 mirror how others do things. So, sure, "-d -1" does not give you what you want. BUT it is consistent with =2D-delete -1. This is the point the exercise. The basic premise is that the short version= is=20 an alias for the long version. Yes, you have to be aware of how to format things, how the rules apply. But= =20 this is the entire point: people should be able to learn it once. And not=20 again for guix because we thought something else worked better... > From my knowledge, all that is solved by the rule: no short option > with optional argument. Sure, you can do that. You'll probably annoy of a lot of people if you remove the thing they=20 use a lot :) Even 'ls' uses optional short arguments (--ignore). So I'm not sure I agree= =20 with your line of reasoning. > > So; if you type -`guix package -l --help` then your parser **first** fi= nds > > all the items with leading dashes and second it tries to find out if > > there is an argument for the `-l`. > > In this case I expect the help to be shown. > >=20 > > This is widely seen as a solution. > > Users can still use items with leading dashes by using two commonly used > > tricks. > > The -l=3Da type of construction allows the argument to be anything. > > Including it having a leading dash. > >=20 > > Second is the double-dash argument that stops words leading with dashes > > being parsed as options. > >=20 > > For instance; grep -- -v * > >=20 > > the -v is parsed as an actual string and not an option because it foll= ows > > the double dashes. >=20 > You miss the point, I believe. > The issue of *any* parser is only for the "flag" with optional > argument in their short-name form. > Because, as I explained above, the syntax for such cases is ambiguous. I'm going to have to disagree with you: this is software. You can **decide*= *=20 the rule and thus decide the parsing. Making the idea that it is ambiguous= =20 false. The rules I explained remove the ambiguity. It makes it extremely cl= ear=20 what happens. And that -S -2 example has a very clear behavior. The point of this bugreport is that my suggestion is that the behavior shou= ld=20 be changed to follow what most other software does. Doing; ls -I -v clearly understands that '-v' is not to be used as an optional argument. The reason, as far as I can tell, is that it does not fit as another argume= nt. The actual design of the arguments needs a bit of finesse, I agree. The '-d= -2'=20 example is really not the best UI design. Avoidance is best. Yes, usage of 'guix package [option] is stupid because it generates a lot o= f=20 cornercases here. Ideally it would be guix package list [options]. In general I do agree that your solution of dropping all optional short=20 arguments would be the best solution. They are extremely rare elsewhere. It would be a bit of a bigger project to make a nice UI without them, thoug= h. Please keep as the hard rule that the short version is an ALIAS to the long= =20 version. =2D-=20 Tom Zander From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 12 17:39:09 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2020 21:39:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56716 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYccH-0002Kt-FH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 17:39:09 -0400 Received: from mail-qk1-f195.google.com ([209.85.222.195]:42644) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYccF-0002Kf-Ni for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 May 2020 17:39:08 -0400 Received: by mail-qk1-f195.google.com with SMTP id b188so15277581qkd.9 for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 12 May 2020 14:39:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8+dRCjOSwW3STRioOUX52mkxCTBqOmn7BiGvSRlmU6o=; b=cvehMKHeL/Z20M2gBpWKhCmqQo0fGUWnCRwdBrBfaN9HuFsdLguCvz9AuLsiunT21V WOt1/nWJYJ0VnSfYPvpb6XLrPhjLce1IFUcsUrUvu5Z5Yv8KhsBBzq4xtmq0L9mLBeKn dga2kYcTCufOikIEJ2S3v7nMlBCFdlubTz6cAMn3tRSs+PXHTGBmJQ4v8phSQbjNyvDz v4TuQioN1fdcbKHIMWv3uM+1iMzumFk/yGl0pcQlIQmL/tZ9Ec5i3Mn2dm6N4WZNeZeN iiNmv1/MGKwlmDA1chiZ9/uthymFHrBMvT8dQv7BKvyxcBxDhT/RNYEpmtLggAhkWILG WssQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8+dRCjOSwW3STRioOUX52mkxCTBqOmn7BiGvSRlmU6o=; b=MM2HLiGYrR8eNY8wPJqlU2vA8ccFxs343KrdXbTPNxBPfkwOInoy2R7k1A304Ezrh2 pLnOxjfNKV3Owu7QBmctEymiVYRiJlTdrLUpeGg42wh/0g4Q5SXcuazyeVvGeSewbKWJ yd3gaSsToBiTC7rxWSyQ1nGnkKqjZ7M4D+HoLhDlIyL2OyRz6rq//3SEHjk7TOXmL2J9 uQm9TJHPeDkjfIfRqqZsHWV5xLpKa7cUgjYEHy6FtAnVC+5/P/OUoycd89WDo8knuKWz q3EXgeXRQXm4JwTzOaZpBJJeLzGejurfBvTdt7uyNh0IA0WCblqmET8oHxnVAj+naM9y Q02Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuY+e9fD3qy+C9aFywf7XtxOx1p4Vb7KGsJy6Gboz4Mbyh97KTlu Gx9SLzAFMxW6gsOzTk1X99ebir/HhMCKiPOOsRO+tc+Y X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypILMgOYcKhkKvvRpohqDzRJz0hIjeSqzhe/d55fS2xWi8pxcj9iOnbnWX6POTJILHpp8plOmHrloK3k4y5Q+qg= X-Received: by 2002:a37:4e05:: with SMTP id c5mr22966291qkb.232.1589319542075; Tue, 12 May 2020 14:39:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <1804825.CQOukoFCf9@cherry> <5565734.MhkbZ0Pkbq@cherry> In-Reply-To: <5565734.MhkbZ0Pkbq@cherry> From: zimoun Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 23:38:50 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: To: Tom Zander Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 22:19, Tom Zander wrote: > They are expected to always be equivalent. It would not be logical to have the > short one as an alias if they are not equivalent. I agree. Note that you cannot have short-name with optional argument or you have to break a rule; see below. > > > You asked for an example; see `git commit -S`. From the manpage: > > > -S[], --gpg-sign[=] > > > > Thank you for the example. Let me show you that it raises an issue > > too because it is not so "simple". :-) > > Easier example then: from the 'ls(1)' manpage: > -I, --ignore=PATTERN No. `ls -I -l` is not doing the right behaviour, i.e., the flag '-l' is not applied. PATTERN is not optional. > seems git is trying to be smart. Git resolves the ambiguity by removing the form '-S keyid'. Other said, (1) '-Skeyid' uses keyid as argument (2) '-S keyid' fails as I showed you. (3) '-S' fallbacks to the default (see .gitconfig) Back to Guix, using the same strategy means: (1) guix package -d8 -p /path/to/profile (2) guix package -d 8 -p /path/to/profile # fails (3) guix pacakge -d -p /path/to/profile # delete all the generations except the current one The three cases cannot all works. You have to choose two cases. Currently Guix uses (1) and (2); and (3) fails. Git uses (1) and (3); and (2) fails. You have right by remarking that the "git-way" seems more consistent when flipping the options. However they are less consistent in regard with option requiring one argument. git commit -S4417B7 -m 'init' I do not have a strong opinion on the topic. Even if I am often annoyed by "guix package -I -p /path/to/profile". > The point is not to reinvent the wheel that have been invented so many > times... A command line parser is a known thing that you can, and should, > mirror how others do things. Are you aware of the wheel? :-) https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-37/srfi-37.html https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Argument-Syntax.html https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007904975/basedefs/xbd_chap12.html#tag_12_02 > Even 'ls' uses optional short arguments (--ignore). So I'm not sure I agree > with your line of reasoning. No, the argument of '--ignore' is not optional. At least with the GNU version from coreutils 8.30. Note the options with optional argument (--color and --hyperlink) do not have a short-name form. > Doing; > ls -I -v > clearly understands that '-v' is not to be used as an optional argument. > The reason, as far as I can tell, is that it does not fit as another argument. You have wrong. Compare ls -I -l ls -l -I ls -I '' -l Because Guix uses SRFI-37 to parse command-line arguments and this will not change, IMHO, the question asked on guile-devel is the one explained above about the 3 cases. All the best, simon From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 13 02:22:28 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 May 2020 06:22:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57172 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYkmh-0008Ei-T4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 02:22:28 -0400 Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([95.128.36.41]:47802) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYkmf-0008EN-EJ for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 02:22:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by ext-mx-out001.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 147376FA; Wed, 13 May 2020 08:22:19 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freedommail.ch; h=content-type:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:date:date :subject:subject:from:from:received:received:received; s= dkim20160331; t=1589350938; x=1591165339; bh=O4t2pueh/tyjAVg4tRa RJXE1TEWnPhiM64LXa4Le+g4=; b=HFh7t4q+Zp4/vs0zwZsQfjZS+6bCn3RfZ0D jyWhiy+DnBH6aLcFSbYvSM5bA54yDeK756N65oSHHVJSrjF/OSJGiXbq4rJASmIQ lhABUGfcJQc/l3aOEW96Rn9ncKvhFQwf6/wLaeisc73676ZjmH8mjYb8Dcj7wBE9 g/joRmqu8776iYWhOtCf5a9YT1Nb+pdR9Um/rjP+GRjE07DWFp9J0vsbVFf+uWu3 osZ2Gm7XRpVirgBpSsBd73UgwQAlvoy6ongegafSdo1d2/6P0dmL8rd7ykSFVQof +9p4zbxFSgBX6VP0SWYhNItNBbi/3FFyHo5RRkaJUxDSKFeUgROMX5KZ354HpSWH D8Haxmr8r4YScCIWXAqmxB/Vi4QVNvoIAE9wACMKJFEWdrdL/u3pmTqlLY4Y9fwQ vgo0ORogmta07x/+UeQuArUm4497u5P5sQ5pQ2w5zA+eXL/yqa/weEsg7k5qgZSX 1ozj8lrFEhLOvsOhv14ZZtMhv8oSyEF5Td2rX5qu1xD8OX5nP4q92QZe8Cr55s2E mFlrVDg2mmOYgT2YKQZmAjXkc1Ce3mCbiUN1M68AHS6OQ3XpzxYRBlWKjs1pWW8e ei1RJrZ2Yal7zyYim4s+9CNASDIPV2TIs0eMohf1ZKEY7J8zv32QquqCXkB+y1N3 s85B8yPo= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mykolab.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-10 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mx.kolabnow.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ext-mx-out001.mykolab.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hAG75t2pWeAO; Wed, 13 May 2020 08:22:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from int-mx003.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.13.3]) by ext-mx-out001.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 559D965E; Wed, 13 May 2020 08:22:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ext-subm002.mykolab.com (unknown [10.9.6.2]) by int-mx003.mykolab.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2C86B0F; Wed, 13 May 2020 08:22:17 +0200 (CEST) From: Tom Zander To: zimoun Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 08:22:16 +0200 Message-ID: <5420431.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> In-Reply-To: References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <5565734.MhkbZ0Pkbq@cherry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) It looks like I was wrong on the ls example, more importantly, it seems we all agree that short options with optional arguments are messy, at best. I think the best course of action is to take a look at the guix command line design and find a way to move away from depending on them. Maybe some iterative change its approach. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 13 12:32:38 2020 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 May 2020 16:32:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59205 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYuJC-0007Xo-3z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 12:32:38 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:52638) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYuJA-0007Xg-Rj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 12:32:37 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47884) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYuJA-0003X3-I3 for bug-guix@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 12:32:36 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:33631) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYuJ9-0001xJ-Gd for bug-guix@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 12:32:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1589387545; bh=NGQdy241E+WbTB9hE4YWdEop8ltYByQW69ImUQF1u74=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=Ry7Gqg3/QOcFEFiYN4X69n79be09Lfdl4o3TE+yvTWDYgvU0ci1AVKIuFDUWZ9IhP PLZmMYDgKUH17siIUJmkNAJONQHd/MfA4tQxqrwzeIQfo+CHk3tbrtEImPOh/hYEnI qwRZ2pdHZpw5ZjRL5sKek4xHmTngRc4CZtJbx/oc= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from fluss ([84.165.26.28]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MvKbj-1jHmzg2Xsv-00rGCw; Wed, 13 May 2020 18:32:25 +0200 References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <1804825.CQOukoFCf9@cherry> <5565734.MhkbZ0Pkbq@cherry> User-agent: mu4e 1.4.4; emacs 26.3 From: Arne Babenhauserheide To: Tom Zander Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: In-reply-to: <5565734.MhkbZ0Pkbq@cherry> Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 18:32:24 +0200 Message-ID: <87zhabx0br.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:EJYpS4NETSpwQik03hBtXIr0rLUDbIME33PNgE/uKW0MwFiVU3E ntISJOKTneYvbrnrzSK3Bxvx52w7/iHbYVXDOUiq7FL5CtYOFGm8AuZZR1i3LXkooMDc+p/ j3ROCMuQXlMKuyhWZgBQkNcqc6nkkQtwSU11Q8UuS5tvQ3S8tGPXraZmy98p5jk2TVEY6bu WcVF7tCZgAODOedeNcs2w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:pH4y4pzaEDI=:luKev7ru86wU7xuuoTml8h ms+tvglhLx5JKwxGbfdspZMM6k2U1Sb9LnHWg8zjNm6SGTd+FJoESOmNJvby1It9RN5SGxvfO YMZ8aW0KMLiVk6vespjpUmMPW5cIcTsBrHxACkMGPiMxmRHvNZWL1Co8Do0EQNbqzUihm+cXi 8lrq8lmgONxqZge/+bZZbSj2VhGcL22EphHwyM4fOsMhQAd6kCT/rrGmTGrazIsAarRZ84AbG QW40OYd1Vxw7uC4fjENb8kouXfcHkS4C+7dDoMgBnYJqLQ6siEPv+1d35Kvb7mbWfq45csAiM thTsZIVftrqftIUEihD5+Qmqba6sNddJLqN4dff/DGYpnHHWmbqRGNKMbLrHyd5wIpKTnAzHV MdlffvdyVa359+tFZWxPyec1loj6HirH1wKKognQdKNXLgSTqiNKktTvbC+N3u/yG6zM3MsVF FwY+lBq6avRNpvFVSkmB7i5YRGZKwaHvmK/juAfeaBCVSSCVymYQnqWRiRt4fZs2YwAxURUz/ dzXgJU1aQnVV+SiLr4va9bkng2z55I7XjMeWgpYBqagJJS0cWhfa/QLiQkfaf4i5RgXrc+8xa 7Y5et+KjjISoCtXnSj1ox55FsTAoH26RhdIls3dHpmVPWVpZztrgWxcVDieQoGny271E/UBFP JI2M0t5gk7xEoTnOi2O4H2gJ1D1eLSg45JKOUs8binvT0hJS+NGIcKQysVnlT0n3cSU4axMND m6VkaI1wHI/U+pBbyeUAjQ9Kz2A0ttTIF+mFmEHUB/MgfDhsefIHHXGGmhBZWQd8wdIRJjHTD U78yqnOp7HivevMnwt6ffLfLez5omcb0Z4KZFBucmcKa3C3CRQFeNXN/6w6YCHPnoCYuZwiE6 Bzj2gqWXhMV4M7jBD9AGsQeI0gWFxfNLcDGDI/zrKehuyx+VRsWCPIJKD5gg7KA7daXjFO2Ab j/G/kZIPz/wStcjJfEIPxW76iNCzdCNpXg0W09XYcA3aCKANlqYoNVAsOFG0VFMNEbhKF9kZn cvZTH/XRMu4jZN+aLMpUKv5ujsn6/hEKiNnjoAh/H+m2fxIfozEMoZnpB8Yn4UgnBQO1BqJqe K8p85XThnp/J9pV7HDo2pcUcltwV5MtLQqbWP2aHhsUMt4YKWX3+NIp22txXeo02kC92ugQBn pVOU07OCGtHipMQXdlIvkYR8W40f58ceEOYvLnm7ynHfR9VuT8ULOLiBqBVehfsNxJrfnh/N7 AmSdsdmkHrXV1lIkO Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.11; envelope-from=arne_bab@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/13 12:32:34 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org, bug-guix@gnu.org, zimoun X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) Tom Zander via Bug reports for GNU Guix writes: >> > You asked for an example; see `git commit -S`. From the manpage: >> > -S[], --gpg-sign[=3D] >>=20 >> Thank you for the example. Let me show you that it raises an issue >> too because it is not so "simple". :-) > > Easier example then: from the 'ls(1)' manpage: > -I, --ignore=3DPATTERN > > seems git is trying to be smart. Yes =E2=80=94 and in that it often annoys me. Anytime I use -S I worry about the interpretation of arguments, because it already bit me a few times. Git is a counter-example: It=E2=80=99s commandline is as unintuitive as it = can get without being an unfinished prototype. And there really isn=E2=80=99t as much consistency in tools as you state. Many tools interpret --foo bar as ((foo bar)), while others only accept --foo=3Dbar as ((foo bar)) and treat --foo bar as ((foo #t) bar). Some tools only accept options before positional arguments, while others allow you to intersperse both. Some tools use named arguments without dash (dd). GNU tools often differ from BSD tools by allowing options after positional arguments and treating --foo bar as (foo bar). And please don=E2=80=99t do radical changes on guix package. That would bre= ak the workflow of every slightly longer term guix user. Best wishes, Arne --=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 13 14:02:22 2020 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 May 2020 18:02:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59462 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYvi1-0003Nr-KR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 14:02:22 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:46974) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYvhz-0003LV-3l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 14:02:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35046) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYvhy-0007MM-RS for bug-guix@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 14:02:18 -0400 Received: from mail-qt1-x82c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::82c]:45275) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYvhv-0007P9-M7 for bug-guix@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 14:02:18 -0400 Received: by mail-qt1-x82c.google.com with SMTP id j2so536472qtr.12 for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 11:02:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PanJAsMsg1Bzc8/9CrMtESnLTe2HiRJQuudpVdVkbXc=; b=KgkUG4trllimdcHe7jIVoe4LzP7RTvEwjM977tikxOalv46JKNpb4HSRMs/dcV7c41 cTLpYtNJSLBkSG/O6vYaKevJ9yWyjZ3WnMkoy2DlDKwfjSHLIyo5OOiF1tQwdptoJI7G 9zrlRoVLo8w/7JcQcYifZyt3dLOwzVMiOVWtzoS6WU70z+uRT9HyYLEvKOnCNphFrP5d Sb9ObaQeN5ffvewflygkvli5YWnsq+es29/Uttc5oagPDpHIcW8isOWnPL6rnklqQkPf KHQAP6WZGxZbugXxzADT9Kqz/02hnK8nmy4zSHTM0HW7yNvLd0u44sjywCAaiJELruMk KJHQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PanJAsMsg1Bzc8/9CrMtESnLTe2HiRJQuudpVdVkbXc=; b=lXYgMVJuo9kNNCEdWx25TMtAzDAsUzJ5v1Z0zfp2wukh6kmOtvxRoB5LAQFnHlJloH j6lLyq8GBmRTzc4Mj3sVNNPKFeRDwRtR7UdlThdT6FGWtc5XkBvUAKsQ1xzSwphEyK1H M3Kacb1muxImsmvt4k6XVKWUA2la8MXlyUSTDeS/V2zJGlqFz5l1zObOwheclqSjEQOf +hAm8DWYiiMUmWRdpE5OTvySMGjUvPaSnQdJJ6Zb2O/K4EbBV8gnmfJxDlRZPbn5+Kiy h8D9JEpTKJjTrH9vRfSzn8OrAymniYCOHEajQks5FpE069RBIRMSOzqZpo3hgv51OCMI htFA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532loasNHJDJ1UpPg/JB+8ovDpbLCx2wdkZryjwVneJZptCNrlfn I5rw1QwsmVCqxBsJ1gH5LTm843VT80fIFEsF5TmzFg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyPEVtUWw4uPWihRtNjgE0CjW7V5z9HbuDonAWAAJulP/idSF/H9MDZrcf/U7Wh0rK/Ur2DZWHpotYBdCqBB/Y= X-Received: by 2002:aed:2d44:: with SMTP id h62mr309688qtd.217.1589392934588; Wed, 13 May 2020 11:02:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <1804825.CQOukoFCf9@cherry> <5565734.MhkbZ0Pkbq@cherry> <87zhabx0br.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <87zhabx0br.fsf@web.de> From: zimoun Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 20:02:03 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: To: Arne Babenhauserheide Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::82c; envelope-from=zimon.toutoune@gmail.com; helo=mail-qt1-x82c.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org, Tom Zander , bug-guix@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Dear Arne, On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 18:32, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote= : > And please don=E2=80=99t do radical changes on guix package. That would b= reak > the workflow of every slightly longer term guix user. I do not want to do radical changes. The parser of the command-line is SRFI-37. So it is documented and the command-line follows guide lines that will not change. The change I am asking for is only the short-name option with optional argument. In such case the optional argument is not optional. Other said, the issue is rooted in a bad practise and, AFAIK, Guix does not follow what other GNU tools follow: no short-name with optional argument. And the Guile implementation of SRFI-37 says that the semantic of short-name with optional argument leads to an issue. But now, it is here so what do we do? In the end, there is annoyance. And the goal is to discuss what could be changed to reduce the annoyance, on all sides. For example, I am always annoyed by: guix package -I -p /tmp/profile It would like it works. And to do so, I accept that "guix package -I regexp -p /tmp/profile" does not anymore and would be replaced by "guix package -Iregexp -p /tmp/profile" which already works (as specified by SRFI-37). Today, the Guix manual is lying because the optional argument for short-name is *not* optional depending on its position. And that leads to surprise: guix package -I -p /tmp/profile # fails guix package -p /tmp/profile -I # works And this is really really annoying! It is hard to understand why such different behaviour. Instead of what I am proposing, what do you suggest? Best regards, simon From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 13 14:54:01 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 May 2020 18:54:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59538 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYwW1-0004qQ-CL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 14:54:01 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:36851) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jYwVz-0004qC-EE for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 14:54:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1589396031; bh=RwD2BgS0RkYgcgFBFm4HHED+BpQrJS8KKphYjjLfizE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=mIZpxP1zVWZz/g8uQ0jTpTupaG1/EVMrDDMmE25McrX/qrW0Sz/pzfL9exSrLskah hsyGHuxq9LJajd10862tadEYZrPUSVqn9PF26OrDKZB5bkxVnpPA7KNvRogP1vgFmm 1zVOlXjSckT71xKwYe3FPUlfbQWyyTjB4k9bQT0o= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from fluss ([84.165.26.28]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mmymz-1iqqW82Gtb-00jwA8; Wed, 13 May 2020 20:53:51 +0200 References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <1804825.CQOukoFCf9@cherry> <5565734.MhkbZ0Pkbq@cherry> <87zhabx0br.fsf@web.de> User-agent: mu4e 1.4.4; emacs 26.3 From: Arne Babenhauserheide To: zimoun Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: In-reply-to: Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 20:53:50 +0200 Message-ID: <87o8qrwts1.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:KBfDMFHHJCGLtwBbecf6ZME+8qBnXiszeco0RlRZyxgA3wurZEx 9JHrb4mLoyNKq86mUdjBH1+QJhGdwXoYw+Xuual6rLwQQfNKlTxWNDEHRpVW8C4I+xcvfai CJ6VhvGGgnUDrW4o0eT2RzBNAR9NIrvyxUpYEoqaQz16seGKRsj0d7j8SN9VcVILujF1YpE ReH9PgxJ9JBLkj0QDjYbQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:4c2TI15ZC8g=:UwL3scTSetW6npCyPX8Pe7 HcLxFPVYkhGRMHe02k6lLBM2gO7/pZsYkAdfdxqsqrFIT9x/nBVEgyk9ddwq/GYhORPbYsaiO VIBWN2OdKHpL75N1szIsy9mcsn2krkkG0Jc/mX226oYBHvT7oTKe/rZEtAMdh5fuPLB8eiQ4B bwYCuiVX5bfJhhMvAjup6hzbMGnJeV8nflrg1OgvWQOPKfkozE3T0Heuyr8ihnl30iX9/ZnRQ 6hDzKYRRhFJog5eUSS9RSByZcDUlZn3cCqDVfECQzXeg5HRTAS4zN2/I1vM1DHX+Bj3rRWkCR V1Xl3ObJZCsqqmhH5swADwjfPYrwEH8UmgVI38N+lMEeNH59172GuyZtQXP9mV3rA+26hzfpb YyHKgQ531eIGx4Xw6thvqC8b457RYUGqEnQhuWxeu7ZkXMe7YDgn6Ma3KY6ehIsqSR4VHRt0Q 4LytwKwqZhO8Ot1vyFLSZZpXY6neW2ctLAY0yVHk300aBaC40gvGQjwddIC7v9CTuvMBdF4Uk 4taPmsjzQU7EjkF6RUQj12B3rRLM1a2ye37+PGvy9ELW35CHudfsUdTIbGCG57qypm1YrLRS0 mZfI04pd11PUpYaakfmdmNNR8X+RMsAT5iDDEJhRlPr0NePkm/PNdDwphL6mV3L2/HRUjliUu bB39AD1cU5xpRz56ZorV5/n+9gMxcnxqnepLffYa9AtE2ZvBU930MBtvaYgLjCYyAsf3RvuS8 ML7p2qb/xxAMrOtWJTcqO1UajV4aX9YbO8RIQe/YBWkpFiK8GZeAjG4pQoO5Rk6bX0jRm0VNn Z1dqsGdLWo+7iNmin1yXfIvSfxG0PPgFvB+3Ql13rm3r9OtXwnmG+jboV7kjKkUs24FBzzjpA 0cwxspBFx1JUIkYm9YTaRFgPOIAqdMKQy2kPkGrS0k8LrTyahQeVZaVKiu9oGsbyo+gSdeOmf LCgOiOWfVA5Hg0Y9sApD4AG/O7KgGTgNBI1zDpYfSU4NJ5wldvEliKmtDXG0YhYTXUeXQfoYF spzO//Y8L7v0QMqqV1B6RAy3Rfls82wCA8NV3t3Oaxp3/KPzZxqNBUoEqb4zLrvfZKrmdaOCt Uw9gcsbRBGq5gr32SWdiuXCexawSQ6WJkjAlJHT4Wl2mmLoi1CvWujxXPvLfGPN1E356pSZYT okGek0b7A7/nK4oxHll9RIbH85ejnGmvzZQ+uEVUNQlZf7KR3k9+clM6mkQbRYYShjwQd4rgB /Vhhwvh/H3kfCAmFq X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org, Tom Zander , bug-guix@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Dear zimoun, zimoun writes: > It would like it works. And to do so, I accept that "guix package -I > regexp -p /tmp/profile" does not anymore and would be replaced by > "guix package -Iregexp -p /tmp/profile" which already works (as > specified by SRFI-37). Wow, this surprised me. I expected guix package -Iregexp to be equivalent to guix package -I -r -e -g -e -x -p which is how getopt long works in the shell. > Today, the Guix manual is lying because the optional argument for > short-name is *not* optional depending on its position. And that > leads to surprise: > > guix package -I -p /tmp/profile # fails > guix package -p /tmp/profile -I # works > > And this is really really annoying! It is hard to understand why such > different behaviour. Yes, this seems annoying. > Instead of what I am proposing, what do you suggest? What I would suggets would break -Iregexp and as such deviate from SRFI-37, so it wouldn=E2=80=99t be optimal. It would first need another SRFI so it=E2=80=99s no shortterm fix :-) The commandline handling I want is this: https://www.draketo.de/english/free-software/shell-argument-parsing But I don=E2=80=99t yet have a good way to do it in Guile. Best wishes, Arne --=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 14 04:15:57 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 May 2020 08:15:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60131 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ925-0003tS-F1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 04:15:57 -0400 Received: from flashner.co.il ([178.62.234.194]:52806) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ924-0003t5-1g for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 04:15:56 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [188.120.128.132]) by flashner.co.il (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 65E5D4018D; Thu, 14 May 2020 08:15:49 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 11:15:16 +0300 From: Efraim Flashner To: zimoun Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: Message-ID: <20200514081516.GN918@E5400> References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <3827671.e9J7NaK4W3@peach> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RtGa12sjXv8gVUZO" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x41AAE7DCCA3D8351 X-PGP-Key: https://flashner.co.il/~efraim/efraim_flashner.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: A28B F40C 3E55 1372 662D 14F7 41AA E7DC CA3D 8351 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --RtGa12sjXv8gVUZO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:28:50AM +0200, zimoun wrote: > On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 at 21:52, Tom via Bug reports for GNU Guix > wrote: > > > > To add detail here: > > > > Doing `guix package -d 18 -S 17` actually works. > > > > This gives me the impression that the order of arguments is relevant to= the > > processing of them. >=20 > It is known and cumbersome: a feature? ;-) >=20 > Other examples: >=20 > guix package -I -A # does nothing > guix package -A -I # list available >=20 >=20 > > Another, similar, example is: > > > > guix package -l --profile=3Da > > > > this doesn't work. But the most curious thing is that this does: > > > > guix package --list-installed --profile=3Da >=20 > It is worse than that. >=20 > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > # OK > guix package --list-generations -p /path/to/profile > guix package --list-installed -p /path/to/profile >=20 > # KO > guix package -l -p /path/to/profile > guix package -I -p /path/to/profile >=20 > # OK > guix package -p /path/to/profile -l > guix package -p /path/to/profile -I >=20 > # KO > guix package -l --profile=3D/path/to/profile >=20 > # Do nothing > guix package -I --profile=3D/path/to/profile >=20 > # OK > guix package -l --profile=3D/path/to/profile -l > guix package -I --profile=3D/path/to/profile -I > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- >=20 >=20 > Well, it seems there is a bug. :-) >=20 > Back to the first examples: >=20 > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > # Do something > guix package --list-installed -A >=20 > # Do nothing > guix package -I -A > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- >=20 >=20 > Thanks for reporting. >=20 > All the best, > simon >=20 To add to this: $ guix package -p profile1 -p profile2 -I | wc -l 91 $ guix package -p profile2 -p profile1 -I | wc -l 12 --=20 Efraim Flashner =D7=90=D7=A4=D7=A8=D7=99=D7=9D = =D7=A4=D7=9C=D7=A9=D7=A0=D7=A8 GPG key =3D A28B F40C 3E55 1372 662D 14F7 41AA E7DC CA3D 8351 Confidentiality cannot be guaranteed on emails sent or received unencrypted --RtGa12sjXv8gVUZO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Thu, 14 May 2020 02:08:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <1804825.CQOukoFCf9@cherry> <5565734.MhkbZ0Pkbq@cherry> <87zhabx0br.fsf@web.de> <87o8qrwts1.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <87o8qrwts1.fsf@web.de> From: zimoun Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 11:08:04 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: To: Arne Babenhauserheide Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f; envelope-from=zimon.toutoune@gmail.com; helo=mail-qt1-x82f.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org, Tom Zander , bug-guix@gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Dear Arne, On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 20:53, Arne Babenhauserheide wrote= : > zimoun writes: > > It would like it works. And to do so, I accept that "guix package -I > > regexp -p /tmp/profile" does not anymore and would be replaced by > > "guix package -Iregexp -p /tmp/profile" which already works (as > > specified by SRFI-37). > > Wow, this surprised me. I expected > > guix package -Iregexp > > to be equivalent to > > guix package -I -r -e -g -e -x -p > > which is how getopt long works in the shell. I am not familiar with getopt but I think getopt does what the POSIX specif= ies. Your expectation is legitimate when all the flags does not require a mandatory argument. For example, ls -artl but it is not true when one of the flags requires one mandatory argument, for example, ls -aIrtl then 'rtl' is seen as the argument of the option '-I, --ignore=3D'. Well, the correct is: ls -aI '' -rtl And the specification e.g., [1], says that "ls -aI'' -rtl" should too; as for example "cut -f1 -d" and "cut -f 1 -d" both are allowed. I should misread but all that perfectly works and is clearly specified by SRFI-37. What is missing is the corner case: how to deal with short-name option with optional argument? There is 2 incompatible rules as I try to explain here [2]. The choice of the Guile implementation leads to break the permutation rule for the short-name with optional argument and maintain consistency with the space between flag and argument. Another choice is to break the consistency with the space between flag and argument and so it does not break the permutation rule; as Tom mentioned with the Git example of '-S[], --gpg-sign[=3D]'. The issue is that the semantic of short-name of optional argument is ambiguous considering all the other rules. [1] https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Argument-Syntax.html [2] http://issues.guix.gnu.org/40549#16 > > Instead of what I am proposing, what do you suggest? > > What I would suggets would break -Iregexp and as such deviate from > SRFI-37, so it wouldn=E2=80=99t be optimal. Just to note that the Guile implementation of SRFI-37 is "aware" of this corner case as it is mentioned in their commentary, already said here [3]. :-) http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guile.git/tree/module/srfi/srfi-37.scm#n51 [3] http://issues.guix.gnu.org/40549#10 > It would first need another SRFI so it=E2=80=99s no shortterm fix :-) >From my point of view, different fixes are possible depending on what we accept to break (here for "guix package" and probably similar cases with other subcommand exist): - nothing =3D> improve the manual - remove the short-name -u, -l, -d, -I, -A - remove the argument for the short-name and keep it for the long-name onl= y. - remove '-X value' and allow only -'Xvalue' for X in {u, l, d, I, A} =3D> new / amend SRFI-37 - other that my imagination is missing Well, I have asked advices on guile-user [4]. I do not know if the issue could be seen as a bug of SRFI-37. [4] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-user/2020-05/msg00034.html > The commandline handling I want is this: > https://www.draketo.de/english/free-software/shell-argument-parsing Thank you for the link. For my understanding -- even after reading the stackoverflow link -- your handling does not address the short-name with optional argument. Does it mean you consider that should not happen? Best regards, simon From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 14 05:14:16 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 May 2020 09:14:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60232 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ9wW-0007jf-4G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 05:14:16 -0400 Received: from mail-qk1-f169.google.com ([209.85.222.169]:41311) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jZ9wT-0007jR-H5 for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 05:14:14 -0400 Received: by mail-qk1-f169.google.com with SMTP id n14so2260972qke.8 for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 14 May 2020 02:14:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FyatmplctIwGhkYzF7WesIp6kpx319JwGSFOwPNCaVk=; b=gZ7dGJcYqEUloGSsGlU2mqu69+b4YEOJp7DkPB9+1oN24IIA6UuoCqcvqV9srND16g 4MBOVcWWnWzM1Vy/tPxrzAggR5RHNwlFvXFlXtBgzpTMESdYl3dF13ryYsb3xEFkpfBd ICqFNyTmBNRXTTS2ngH9weG5r59tS6FfHJ6sb7auY4R8UZd3sm9aWS+jKShLPHhLjqUP hpKcsHKKRukuJBaoQxIwK9agi31EzXSfrVoDrxZQ9DPxsgnzCogs5Cy0mxZEQMw66AGX fTSvMw7OCFzACx+ZdWwz3fBYHm61XaxUgkaA1o0Tg1nvQkd/Xnz7xjVSukNykEZW7ZmL /bvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FyatmplctIwGhkYzF7WesIp6kpx319JwGSFOwPNCaVk=; b=EoT9uLDKdyiKlEL3YVVbkMrhx/EGz7JOvSYV3yn0E5FTPF059AxsZmtgGbBgkzEVrP miVSC13XfixHAgP5lqP/ifGotTQmWIZHaqblCm1nzku9l7ZBWX/etHBEYi47PK0gdBri mHVt+LJlmcBwSGb9ExYWYs91fRCcxBJelhpc5bxml3JaeaOkhKFRCP6D8ddJG3+PuuDy Fp0qWpvuuA76ZiiXD3G1minDmFvfgJHabwjhsXDeOO8yfFZo/3xuCYMPtsn7mHp98pFQ C8qycTYnOJpdUzNfUkW830uZZ0rpRVaoVlvs0tV4jtUG0uZtAUoQEb/kfHm/XyyQCKLH 720g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ddETKIB3R/hERj8373bOq/ZfiNjv8UuELDC+pM4LSZvyTrN/r KebH+2bcYsKFHjiz1YphTwbLrXrdF19a6j91txloxlwH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx7wlsMYXBcEPMqR96Pchv4ZbR/26P98hBEm1vrwbh/zg3NQ7U55tZ0XKnMvexdPo6Wj9ylLDklnsrvDTf1HWw= X-Received: by 2002:a37:9a95:: with SMTP id c143mr3423759qke.201.1589447648108; Thu, 14 May 2020 02:14:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <3827671.e9J7NaK4W3@peach> <20200514081516.GN918@E5400> In-Reply-To: <20200514081516.GN918@E5400> From: zimoun Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 11:13:56 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#40549: More usability issues: To: Efraim Flashner Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Efraim, On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 10:15, Efraim Flashner wrote: > $ guix package -p profile1 -p profile2 -I | wc -l > 91 > $ guix package -p profile2 -p profile1 -I | wc -l > 12 I bet: $ guix package -p profile1 -I | wc -l 91 $ guix package -p profile2 -I | wc -l 12 Well, thank you for the report. Cheers, simon From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 14 10:25:57 2020 Received: (at 40549) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 May 2020 14:25:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34354 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jZEo8-0005LO-St for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 10:25:57 -0400 Received: from mail-qv1-f45.google.com ([209.85.219.45]:43967) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jZEo8-0005L7-2e for 40549@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 May 2020 10:25:56 -0400 Received: by mail-qv1-f45.google.com with SMTP id p4so863783qvr.10 for <40549@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 14 May 2020 07:25:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RtgaxJ4qWoMIL2vEmGDvYa3pKxOqqjZYhAsjuNCfz/Q=; b=EMidpQxb7VCDgL+eser9IwBamj11yZe4Je0v4lsnJNsVcOC8U+w4yaSevo5OR4Sq0x tumZH2gMhv0/xsb1l4H+jYQxc/Uo+FpJlD/XqoYZea++6hI5MC7CPiNklHHHSgDbZI2b M3CRyZkauPdho2wvOoz6Nk7hosUblP9bHnOyhDThZrcAdXvv+GrFQuH83A53UVa5M8KE fBUDEOwzUY1LMvHR7Hjjr4QEnQlbu1w4gLRoJiiC4grs0SPprRWeXZUsdtdPPIJW3H1a 3nMB09DtRewjvkM/s4rExqMTSsp5GBCLQ6QmPiDOCVW1Re7XQSUetD2nVOXNOspQcDYp lEPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RtgaxJ4qWoMIL2vEmGDvYa3pKxOqqjZYhAsjuNCfz/Q=; b=OxjD/dGUuiESLtYL6y6Yt46p6fNhZB/IdkbIwvBEFQ0OomM5BW1Rz1iocUuUa9iFxK gmS86oEsKGVoBb0cbkcXMdnmF4RZGx9yHkSuH8OntY17hXC1VKab0wjJtI3XcJLTcemH I+KQFMhkyFpk+ktWzPPFXwp56h+nwnJOj3MwbgbaHiK2enHuaZQol19YFvC9sIex9d3S 2Vsn2OE7fP63sFMEYvHqcieSDPcPUoFQ+BW5BC/DwDW1M36gWTH1bPbNiBlorrIBvEUs 2YGVvlOEA8ItQSYdbp/J/Fg501FYcxAD04Omjq0/+BwWI8q9Qt0tSYg+F9aESp9ToYMc wv2w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533WYeKJh+yEvAI7rGwtPNTUVJuI4UD3yycF6iXi/kl4TxerXCCZ Cr41n0Pv608pPbDoSGcRaUzz2NVoCah3KJjb2ss= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy9MYskQcfF6YgVKrpXMyJic3EuESuxVNAuKxuDiEJ+y+atMlewaBZzBIfmrTGhz2wSx2c8Zw6rd0bsINtVa2E= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4c92:: with SMTP id bs18mr5113972qvb.67.1589466350455; Thu, 14 May 2020 07:25:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> <3827671.e9J7NaK4W3@peach> <20200514081516.GN918@E5400> In-Reply-To: <20200514081516.GN918@E5400> From: zimoun Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 16:25:39 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Fix -p profile -p profile -I To: Efraim Flashner Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549 Cc: 40549@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 10:15, Efraim Flashner wrote: > $ guix package -p profile1 -p profile2 -I | wc -l > 91 > $ guix package -p profile2 -p profile1 -I | wc -l > 12 Just to let you know that a fix is proposed there [1]. [1] http://issues.guix.gnu.org/issue/41260 All the best, simon From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 08 08:49:26 2021 Received: (at 40549-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Sep 2021 12:49:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58875 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mNx14-0001xP-5d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 08:49:26 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f48.google.com ([209.85.221.48]:33741) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mNx12-0001x7-4B for 40549-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 08:49:25 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f48.google.com with SMTP id t18so3210900wrb.0 for <40549-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 05:49:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GeCMgKWWQHDzPsiEQ/5xYdLcqw/ew25QPYaEioXu9ec=; b=HJJkrzFetTqDFNUtimqew0sDjM7VIl4NdVQFKdwJjaixaoclPICEjRGo5JABni9nTC yU0p3wMk3LHaYZdIYhtrti5mv8M6EoCuP7rJjOMY/rzGfJVmqW3g4bAi5QSwFZEVT1Qu NOpmkI3opE+uDNdccJ4q/m/BzzxF0YUxx9e4P+r7JGBzu6lznLAwodySN7qL86I83CGP LGAo0SKTNfjrHX2+72MQSAGKXp9CowNsGT2KDPgJfyBx6UZrb0cii0/OjxtwL2cR6AjN puemUMRp3LUHVASKfjEpykwYYSy/M1Skh86YMhHJYH1lrNYd0vavFoFZNQ9ZF+YJSskK Qhmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GeCMgKWWQHDzPsiEQ/5xYdLcqw/ew25QPYaEioXu9ec=; b=5rppyBLF+RvEzNGcxVbTwelBeNVnDGm1nky3eEfdNYoByJQRmtTUNr2evZpptKIciD YfXVdpTHBARYkG94h9wpJbpOEvyw46VuxJXTOvc404B7/hxkV3qoMMjK0PbtRCDKbfn7 JeEpRX0TeR0fxXa1gPeRk3dpbAE0R8SDRoLoMMnzUcFhfg+AxmZnzcgLSbOk4WeWE1fO WpSBltMNg1GCznzZf4o/zs3rTEdx5wul1nq/Q8xhNqHhfm7NSW5AcbS7NwgCBmRr+yu+ VnKUVpYI4WTh76yoCWYmSAhqvNsCBqfMxvLfT8EEgCIeF8CD7Bb/xgY+jruk9T5YzL5c KUAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530kg1+HWF0IDojaYSuhjHUS8KlGYitPCg4+Jll4FRQneU+otOA8 bMeK8qL1s4TNHOrhI5x111dSWd+iNEQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyrnu2Vwj//0uuZnuXZfihpekhsfUf3+a9s4IWs2hpxLORU7TmFlyUMzTzTZ6o5BJ5TjRMiYQ== X-Received: by 2002:adf:de8a:: with SMTP id w10mr3367041wrl.413.1631105357999; Wed, 08 Sep 2021 05:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jack-Precision-7820-Tower ([193.48.40.117]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n66sm2064899wmn.2.2021.09.08.05.49.17 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 08 Sep 2021 05:49:17 -0700 (PDT) From: zimoun To: Tom Zander Subject: Re: bug#40549: [usability] revert last generation References: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 14:49:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: <6171889.DvuYhMxLoT@cherry> (Tom Zander's message of "Sat, 11 Apr 2020 11:23:52 +0200") Message-ID: <861r5z2px2.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 40549-done Cc: 40549-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi, Thanks for the report. Because you reported 2 issues: a) one about the order of =E2=80=99%actions=E2=80=99 processing b) one about short-name with optional argument I prefer to close this bug and track the issues into 2 separated numbers, i.e., a) see #50472 b) see #50473 because it eases the actionable steps to fix them. All the best, simon From unknown Sun Jun 22 11:41:14 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 11:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator