From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jan 26 12:03:19 2020 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Jan 2020 17:03:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57349 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ivlJf-0000VO-0o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:03:19 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:49593) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ivlJe-0000VG-08 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:03:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38196) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ivlJc-0002SM-TS for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:03:17 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FREEMAIL_FROM, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ivlJb-0006lr-VP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:03:16 -0500 Received: from mail-qk1-x72c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c]:34011) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ivlJa-0006kI-IX for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:03:14 -0500 Received: by mail-qk1-x72c.google.com with SMTP id d10so7400198qke.1 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 09:03:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=moxC+feZ/KUTKcv2Np3Ig+Rj0OcnJ0XAJ/6EJ7yqQuo=; b=spOp0c6xdYkS6iQw3Zu4Xf4phNMimmKBuZ4vuPBGF4nbHg9YjnISxHjh15ZR6J6+iT K2lCVjrhb8B0apLMAn0e2AZehHSmZZt3n+igXDyAXfvC6wMOY5Aop0ckFeJUPBJYL/0R q0dlOIDykfWGIa/lX3OBt6PkTvDiuOaU2CBKpYKBRUSOkGFy6meRo7pgBOZwHQr5Q+a6 ToDl0dsoJRzSJh4P3sDtgK3oaWsO5VWRZrdifCjSbwH5PDwsxk4cEaqKRswkneyel1/C C+buoAN1tVfnA52jZawBnqb1ObEeIsLbYhjdTs2KUYM92G6ZifZfGFOCNhXb2tniQmfQ 3ihw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=moxC+feZ/KUTKcv2Np3Ig+Rj0OcnJ0XAJ/6EJ7yqQuo=; b=I3+6z82kDYNHvPU8xZ1e3BabiY2BKUBKZtk0OESSqjQRKcH8eRj35tsyfk1f+vv7/Y /OO0ywpmwtGoBAwoXisxOZ+GnzfjeTuKOg2eKogRL9T447AVR89bxmanzM2qJv8X0gJi +8jtTmgzrIgeO01IGOdshG6PirZPOjdC9okvfYUp+/c3E12DkvA3JJ5CERKSzRTlOBjM VyO1NrDmzitVLc5AO4WyTg2OK++4rHgxgp11PvOj/9RQt9Wk9Lo6OuGvF1Y1t7/2q4J3 NcveMEuiLtPDelau75p6BsFJOv49kap9LxQc5+qmOEgnxSASjBX4xLoh1GL+oZ3wqToJ ++gg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVLKkzDA2OakB3RNzy7C9VHgGzGGG5K5/FG4ctk6zOCDIi1v04G Er4vQdeWyziofbxssQj4btO1XSpq X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwpKvaoM9JONVrj+u1As+FTAJMmve9hGDvR9dZxpon82TKHmruyJdSor2BpqrgyCTUYXCTQtg== X-Received: by 2002:a37:7005:: with SMTP id l5mr12631767qkc.334.1580058193458; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 09:03:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from lumet.home (pool-108-26-232-211.bstnma.fios.verizon.net. [108.26.232.211]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r66sm7777723qkd.125.2020.01.26.09.03.12 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 26 Jan 2020 09:03:12 -0800 (PST) From: Howard Melman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: 26.3; kbd-help property is undocumented Message-Id: <3E9F2FF0-FCD7-4406-8AFE-4A5F7C79353D@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:03:12 -0500 To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) The docstring for `help-at-pt-string' mentions a `kbd-help' property, but this property is not mentioned in either the emacs or elisp manuals. The commentary to help-at-pt.el mentions that it is a new property though it's not clear how new and it doesn't seem to be used in the rest of emacs 26 lisp source.=20 In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.2.0, NS appkit-1671.20 = Version 10.14.3 (Build 18D109)) of 2019-09-02 built on builder10-14.porkrind.org --=20 Howard From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 31 09:04:44 2020 Received: (at 39295) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Jan 2020 14:04:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36720 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ixWua-0001TW-Do for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:04:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:60072) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ixWuZ-0001TJ-7n for 39295@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:04:43 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45878) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ixWuU-0003Aj-58; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:04:38 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4717 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ixWuT-0005Dz-31; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:04:37 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 16:04:15 +0200 Message-Id: <83a763lo2o.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Howard Melman In-reply-to: <3E9F2FF0-FCD7-4406-8AFE-4A5F7C79353D@gmail.com> (message from Howard Melman on Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:03:12 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#39295: 26.3; kbd-help property is undocumented References: <3E9F2FF0-FCD7-4406-8AFE-4A5F7C79353D@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 39295 Cc: 39295@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > From: Howard Melman > Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 12:03:12 -0500 > > The docstring for `help-at-pt-string' mentions a `kbd-help' > property, but this property is not mentioned in either the > emacs or elisp manuals. > > The commentary to help-at-pt.el mentions that it is a new > property though it's not clear how new and it doesn't seem > to be used in the rest of emacs 26 lisp source. It indeed is unused, so I'm not sure it should be documented at this time. As for "new": the help-at-pt.el file was added to Emacs 17 years ago, and its original version already included support for this property. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 31 12:11:24 2020 Received: (at 39295) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Jan 2020 17:11:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37992 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ixZpE-0006Kj-Bp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:11:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49564) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ixZpC-0006KX-DM for 39295@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:11:22 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49298) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ixZp4-0002Ve-PQ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:11:15 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4389 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ixZow-0008JM-HW; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:11:12 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 19:10:47 +0200 Message-Id: <83wo97k0vc.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Howard Melman In-reply-to: (message from Howard Melman on Fri, 31 Jan 2020 11:10:26 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#39295: 26.3; kbd-help property is undocumented References: <3E9F2FF0-FCD7-4406-8AFE-4A5F7C79353D@gmail.com> <83a763lo2o.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 39295 Cc: 39295@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > From: Howard Melman > Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 11:10:26 -0500 [Please keep the bug address on the CC list.] > > It indeed is unused, so I'm not sure it should be documented at this > > time. As for "new": the help-at-pt.el file was added to Emacs 17 > > years ago, and its original version already included support for this > > property. > > Perhaps it should be deprecated? Without documentation it's unlikely to be used. It is documented in the doc strings, isn't it? > It would be nice if some place described it as unused (and perhaps as unused for a very long time). Unused in Emacs itself doesn't mean no one out there uses it. A feature that is unused doesn't do any harm. > Since the code will use it, it should remain in the docstring. If you don't want to add it to the manual then may I suggest at a least a comment in the code saying so and what its intent was, perhaps in the package commentary, would be useful. Not every feature is documented in the manual, only the important ones are. And I'm not sure I see the utility of stating in comments that we don't document this in the manual: we don't say that about all the other features not mentioned in the manual. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 31 12:23:55 2020 Received: (at 39295) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Jan 2020 17:23:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38016 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ixa1K-0006eo-SR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:23:55 -0500 Received: from mail-qt1-f175.google.com ([209.85.160.175]:46787) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ixa1J-0006eb-5g for 39295@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:23:53 -0500 Received: by mail-qt1-f175.google.com with SMTP id e25so5938881qtr.13 for <39295@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:23:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ne+c9/MJe8TCvr2n0TQxcMRd4z8PU0M1XigmEtVvgxI=; b=IYKGZwA/8tFdHer5N50oGLJZ7QrllVY9IzIUKnP6BYotk5uwzeJJlbDwgiwL11GTX8 rC/3GzMgZREp2eedwgpN4X9IvEt+Eiguy7FAkIrRj1O5vOatqZIACPdTTBSKPDqnoC29 f45125onGneciiHV64LCT1Hwl7MxgbnG9ILa9AA9x/2ACKJQSRo1bkDPlsL3GIbEZE8W i5n4zhNsep2lxxom8JMVfnuiFJdRymbJtRuop24N9UhXiI2QsY9QTPegz+H6eC5beEgc POVDlYMepJ1gtHILqQKkScyAbBYjbJzYW3luoOQbhZ8kEkMww1Bi+la5XxOZ7q66MoZZ M2Wg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ne+c9/MJe8TCvr2n0TQxcMRd4z8PU0M1XigmEtVvgxI=; b=QG1vFgb6RuQR7N5HP7DE6WBG+cGmSMX1YPGLy/m5yYPALQtP8TuqGSpZotO0ywq+mk Jtcn7atlhGqxQDICZuRfHv2XmYhmsufZGUET0FWeRuqKpU9LnqKQaUFKJSQxpq4hdAxo dquu9oMmSZF3C7qgq0cHS4rSRgOMWdEs4kUzuIc+9cuMj+KtirpPRHbriBv5zeLeNXMW KWhmrLk52+N5vBSvk5HbG/TbEXzD74xvIsdMtUUZQv9nyY3pKaayuWQgHc/2cKYmnh6Z hbJz1ujBmb3PybAHHJxzta0vawXdisue0VDxCedu86jCwnuMpg74DjEZCLT/RshqWkx/ jmPA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWZFjIqWLIwSiae2WR5b/S833rpRPHDotl/BJDjJt6HektskJIL MUe0lf1GM6zjvOvKOYm70EY6qN8i X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyph2C4mbdI6tm+zID5a1uHuoLiAFU6vcBYA0HPLFrbBF8wBXS5e0x7vbkpqhH2aqiwu0JYZw== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:340c:: with SMTP id u12mr11759432qtb.257.1580491427471; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:23:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lumet.home (pool-108-26-232-211.bstnma.fios.verizon.net. [108.26.232.211]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v4sm4667154qkj.64.2020.01.31.09.23.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:23:46 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: bug#39295: 26.3; kbd-help property is undocumented From: Howard Melman In-Reply-To: <83wo97k0vc.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:23:45 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3E9F2FF0-FCD7-4406-8AFE-4A5F7C79353D@gmail.com> <83a763lo2o.fsf@gnu.org> <83wo97k0vc.fsf@gnu.org> To: Eli Zaretskii X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 39295 Cc: 39295@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > On Jan 31, 2020, at 12:10 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >=20 >> From: Howard Melman >> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 11:10:26 -0500 >=20 > [Please keep the bug address on the CC list.] >=20 >>> It indeed is unused, so I'm not sure it should be documented at this >>> time. As for "new": the help-at-pt.el file was added to Emacs 17 >>> years ago, and its original version already included support for = this >>> property. >>=20 >> Perhaps it should be deprecated? Without documentation it's unlikely = to be used. >=20 > It is documented in the doc strings, isn't it? >=20 >> It would be nice if some place described it as unused (and perhaps as = unused for a very long time).=20 >=20 > Unused in Emacs itself doesn't mean no one out there uses it. A > feature that is unused doesn't do any harm. Well, just a little complexity. I've now forgotten what I was tracking = down that led me to this code but it was an additional property I had to = figure out if it was relevant to what I was looking for. >> Since the code will use it, it should remain in the docstring. If you = don't want to add it to the manual then may I suggest at a least a = comment in the code saying so and what its intent was, perhaps in the = package commentary, would be useful. >=20 > Not every feature is documented in the manual, only the important ones > are. And I'm not sure I see the utility of stating in comments that > we don't document this in the manual: we don't say that about all the > other features not mentioned in the manual. I think some place should describe when code should use kbd-help as = opposed to help-echo.=20 The elisp manual section "Properties with Special Meanings" is = incomplete without it. If it doesn't deserve a description there, then I = do think a comment differentiating it from help-echo (even to say it's = rarely used) would help. Howard= From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 31 14:25:18 2020 Received: (at 39295) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Jan 2020 19:25:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38101 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ixbuo-00037C-Ge for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:25:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42746) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ixbun-000370-6r for 39295@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:25:17 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:52060) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ixbui-0004Fl-1x; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:25:12 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4556 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ixbuh-0007TV-7C; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:25:11 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:24:51 +0200 Message-Id: <83mua3junw.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Howard Melman In-reply-to: (message from Howard Melman on Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:23:45 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#39295: 26.3; kbd-help property is undocumented References: <3E9F2FF0-FCD7-4406-8AFE-4A5F7C79353D@gmail.com> <83a763lo2o.fsf@gnu.org> <83wo97k0vc.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 39295 Cc: 39295@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > From: Howard Melman > Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:23:45 -0500 > Cc: 39295@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Not every feature is documented in the manual, only the important ones > > are. And I'm not sure I see the utility of stating in comments that > > we don't document this in the manual: we don't say that about all the > > other features not mentioned in the manual. > > I think some place should describe when code should use kbd-help as opposed to help-echo. I see it explained in the doc string of help-at-pt-display-when-idle, and also in some other doc strings in help-at-pt.el. > The elisp manual section "Properties with Special Meanings" is incomplete without it. It doesn't try to be complete. Eventually, one needs to read the doc strings of the features one wants to use. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 03 14:31:52 2020 Received: (at 39295) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Feb 2020 19:31:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42224 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iyhRo-0005fn-62 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 03 Feb 2020 14:31:52 -0500 Received: from mail-qk1-f171.google.com ([209.85.222.171]:42658) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iyhRm-0005fW-Kl for 39295@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 03 Feb 2020 14:31:51 -0500 Received: by mail-qk1-f171.google.com with SMTP id q15so15391042qke.9 for <39295@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 03 Feb 2020 11:31:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=KcuntsGMfDSpp9cZKQTJyAsbT+8wO2xcGzd17uNAL9w=; b=j0B6uN0pR+7tH53qr8NMS9454e+MxXO/WYwnt9SqQn8sMiYyRg1YU4oa1WMvwgQFz+ dpo2GJT4dO9ieXCSlFCZu1qK4mt63bXxcVAK57MbOZramF0lVefCWlThQA1oq4Vr4hga nxN0ATf5iBEwbGmeWwuKPLe2q6N8w40y2ZWemPV4WIFEigwacS2hRuvHpkpUyPV6OObo wwFC+XGT4yLNtDORS6WySxNeTLDXRx0cFl/+sdvtlMnJLx+9ADjbrkg5e1oFkOnYPzl7 NpCsDvjAqAyzs6f4A20R7Cx1S09BaW8/ING/b8yyIIvsp//Efb0zfduEYZ090undmAvJ /ZmQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=KcuntsGMfDSpp9cZKQTJyAsbT+8wO2xcGzd17uNAL9w=; b=RwyDUtMX/kaOGU96nV66fBJ8wfxQjn8z/De22FWC47TmWhd5Yt6nd65hHy7Q1GNv5o 8Zz7N2eIK02IwhY1cDg094J+FkEQwcbifFVPobXRGh/OOMeYp6mzi7cr3o/p9Ldi/j+h WsmFB1/o5XFbdhg3rN4lKnFIwWViL1bmlcDi/NellBoijfBgfNd3J/MpOAwoTNB6XTVV aWEbiP5pSUyPtPbLbdC9bfeFbfOt6LG1llIJT2eCWmEWKIax1smcA+9Jicbq1ArRAStI MBikwgisQseGDypcDxcqffwet5rM20Q0bpw+0Gb+FeQ1F7bwz/0VKf51ZlCGX7FK/4tX Y1Nw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUBlhz/Ja65MbFBmZ93gstrYs6582EauP5gZbbYDQIzCUDZwdqv RLNNT8aLLYIWLO6WHB4Zzx8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyFAahukVAXlkulVvnjF0Ka0cUZu98S6J8fWgTGVQxAKnB6pie70dOiayd3djP9Nvv3Xyj+EA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:9cc:: with SMTP id y12mr3960103qky.446.1580758304955; Mon, 03 Feb 2020 11:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from lumet.home (pool-108-26-232-211.bstnma.fios.verizon.net. [108.26.232.211]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 69sm9727385qkk.106.2020.02.03.11.31.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 03 Feb 2020 11:31:44 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: bug#39295: 26.3; kbd-help property is undocumented From: Howard Melman In-Reply-To: <83mua3junw.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2020 14:31:43 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <214636B1-8157-4797-93E0-3647FB7614FC@gmail.com> References: <3E9F2FF0-FCD7-4406-8AFE-4A5F7C79353D@gmail.com> <83a763lo2o.fsf@gnu.org> <83wo97k0vc.fsf@gnu.org> <83mua3junw.fsf@gnu.org> To: Eli Zaretskii X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 39295 Cc: 39295@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Jan 31, 2020, at 2:24 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > From: Howard Melman >>=20 >>> Not every feature is documented in the manual, only the important = ones >>> are. And I'm not sure I see the utility of stating in comments that >>> we don't document this in the manual: we don't say that about all = the >>> other features not mentioned in the manual. >>=20 >> I think some place should describe when code should use kbd-help as = opposed to help-echo.=20 >=20 > I see it explained in the doc string of help-at-pt-display-when-idle, > and also in some other doc strings in help-at-pt.el. I now see it in the :doc strings of that option. Specifically the lines: = "The text printed from the `help-echo' property is often only relevant = when using the mouse." and "The presence of a `kbd-help' property = guarantees that non mouse specific help is available." That's all the = information I wanted. I still think if those were in the defcustom's docstring or a comment it = would have been easier to find, but you're correct, it is in the code = and if I had been more careful in reading all 13 occurrences I would = have seen it. >> The elisp manual section "Properties with Special Meanings" is = incomplete without it. >=20 > It doesn't try to be complete. Eventually, one needs to read the doc > strings of the features one wants to use. That's a fine stance to take, though I interpret the first paragraph of = the "Properties with Special Meanings" section as saying it is = attempting to be complete. Here is a table of text property names that have special built-in meanings. The following sections list a few additional special = property names that control filling and property inheritance. All other = names have no standard meaning, and you can use them as you like. Howard= From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Aug 21 10:34:25 2020 Received: (at 39295) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Aug 2020 14:34:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47985 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k987d-0008Ih-JY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 10:34:25 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:45170) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k987c-0008IQ-5K for 39295@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 10:34:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ZipJiMYFJWm3esSW2rO7Vz+2MQDeDeNEDPP1oMO+Y5g=; b=NOPiaPB0+RKUzz+R8GW7wj+3Si LeEE4Vabl6sclyU6GSXtXot6Xa9B8CgMKBJDMIGMmED6I6FYnq8wQr84Ij5SbEArXOgLqMtI1htMS RejOtNr4r68kkj2kXpagg/dusKK+ihT2M+SXtznbaKibum7zpsFBMfRlMC/i16L4AjUg=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1k987R-00067P-Sz; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:34:17 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Howard Melman Subject: Re: bug#39295: 26.3; kbd-help property is undocumented References: <3E9F2FF0-FCD7-4406-8AFE-4A5F7C79353D@gmail.com> <83a763lo2o.fsf@gnu.org> <83wo97k0vc.fsf@gnu.org> <83mua3junw.fsf@gnu.org> <214636B1-8157-4797-93E0-3647FB7614FC@gmail.com> X-Now-Playing: Boris's _Love_: "Evol" Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:34:12 +0200 In-Reply-To: <214636B1-8157-4797-93E0-3647FB7614FC@gmail.com> (Howard Melman's message of "Mon, 3 Feb 2020 14:31:43 -0500") Message-ID: <87a6yo2hln.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Howard Melman writes: > I now see it in the :doc strings of that option. Specifically the > lines: "The text printed from the `help-echo' property is often only > relevant when using the mouse." and "The presence of a `kbd [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 39295 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 39295@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Howard Melman writes: > I now see it in the :doc strings of that option. Specifically the > lines: "The text printed from the `help-echo' property is often only > relevant when using the mouse." and "The presence of a `kbd-help' > property guarantees that non mouse specific help is available." That's > all the information I wanted. > > I still think if those were in the defcustom's docstring or a comment > it would have been easier to find, Makes sense to me. I've now made the suggested adjustment in Emacs 28. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Aug 21 10:34:32 2020 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Aug 2020 14:34:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47988 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k987j-0008J5-QB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 10:34:32 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:45190) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k987i-0008If-9V for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 10:34:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=a34kzs4H6xi5moIktAMvxbbXlCQR/drS99oA7W9CsBU=; b=pocJtECblyETkBOxfQJ7awD2on TzbJKLFjo6NAMSPFFFJjNNOwfGDJq6RZH/UUr3scYro3AzETAsml83vaENR/qA4zI9KKx6Tw8UeSW LxR6t0xwy0osayUtQeQgtnlx2DhCsmhvYIcdMZw3WYQ9yV2wWUVPeCe+i0SeCg6Ld/Hw=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1k987a-00067j-GA for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:34:24 +0200 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:34:21 +0200 Message-Id: <878se82hle.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #39295 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 39295 fixed close 39295 28.1 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 39295 fixed close 39295 28.1 quit From unknown Mon Aug 11 18:15:27 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2020 11:24:10 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator