From rgm@gnu.org Mon Jul 20 11:29:41 2009 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 20 Jul 2009 18:29:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.5 required=4.0 tests=AWL,FOURLA,X_DEBBUGS_NO_ACK autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6KITbMw025991 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:29:38 -0700 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MSxcG-0004A2-5z for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:29:36 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MSxc9-00041r-BE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:29:34 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=56144 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MSxc7-00040r-Cd for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:29:27 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:54116) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MSxc6-0006va-K1 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:29:26 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MSxTw-0003wu-Uv; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:21:00 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation X-Spook: Bush Wired Aldergrove SCUD missile Jyllandsposten jihad X-Ran: -@WJH/xjnCEH&-t]5ho]O%R]/'Q8\k}SG"PQLHE?'(t0c$Fvr&WB-#o'gON.[sgoc}M@,. X-Hue: yellow X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:21:00 -0400 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) In GNU Emacs 23.0.96.1 on GNU/Linux: emacs -Q C-h v x-select-enable-clipboard x-select-enable-clipboard is a variable defined in `x-win.el'. Its value is nil Documentation: Non-nil means cutting and pasting uses the clipboard. This is the default on this system, since MS-Windows does not support other types of selections. I guess this is because term/pc-win.elc is now in SOME_MACHINE_LISP in src/Makefile.in. (It was not there in Emacs 22.) Similarly, from ns-win.el, we get the following in GNU/Linux under X: x-display-name: The name of the Nextstep display on which Emacs was started. x-setup-function-keys: Set up function Keys for Nextstep for frame FRAME. x-select-text: Put TEXT, a string, on the pasteboard. x-colors: The list of colors defined in non-PANTONE color files. xw-defined-colors: Return a list of colors supported for a particular frame. The argument FRAME specifies which frame to try. The value may be different for frames on different Nextstep displays. From eliz@gnu.org Mon Jul 20 11:57:07 2009 Received: (at 3888) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 20 Jul 2009 18:57:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 required=4.0 tests=AWL,FOURLA,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_NIX1 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mtaout5.012.net.il (mtaout5.012.net.il [84.95.2.13]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6KIv0H1030921 for <3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 11:57:01 -0700 Received: from conversion-daemon.i_mtaout5.012.net.il by i_mtaout5.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) id <0KN300C00GJ0A000@i_mtaout5.012.net.il> for 3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:56:39 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.246.110]) by i_mtaout5.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) with ESMTPA id <0KN3004Z5GMEJ9H0@i_mtaout5.012.net.il>; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:56:39 +0300 (IDT) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 21:56:38 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#3888: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Glenn Morris , 3888@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii Message-id: <83tz17npy1.fsf@gnu.org> References: > From: Glenn Morris > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:21:00 -0400 > Cc: > > > In GNU Emacs 23.0.96.1 on GNU/Linux: > > emacs -Q > C-h v x-select-enable-clipboard > > x-select-enable-clipboard is a variable defined in `x-win.el'. > Its value is nil > > Documentation: > Non-nil means cutting and pasting uses the clipboard. > This is the default on this system, since MS-Windows does not > support other types of selections. > > I guess this is because term/pc-win.elc is now in SOME_MACHINE_LISP in > src/Makefile.in. (It was not there in Emacs 22.) None of the *-win.elc files was in SOME_MACHINE_LISP in Emacs 22, which is why documentation of several important functions and variables were not in etc/DOC. But there were other platform-specific files in SOME_MACHINE_LISP: dos-fns.elc, w32-fns.elc, vmsproc.elc, etc. So the problem is not new. > Similarly, from ns-win.el, we get the following in GNU/Linux under X: > > x-display-name: > The name of the Nextstep display on which Emacs was started. > > x-setup-function-keys: > Set up function Keys for Nextstep for frame FRAME. > > x-select-text: > Put TEXT, a string, on the pasteboard. > > x-colors: > The list of colors defined in non-PANTONE color files. > > xw-defined-colors: > Return a list of colors supported for a particular frame. > The argument FRAME specifies which frame to try. > The value may be different for frames on different Nextstep displays. Similarly (but for slightly different reasons), in the Windows port: x-set-selection is a compiled Lisp function in `w32-fns.el'. (x-set-selection type data) Not documented. and the same for x-get-selection and x-selection-owner, even though there's a doc string for all of these in the X-specific files. I think this calls for some infrastructure that is currently missing: how to define a platform-specific implementation of an API without clobbering the doc string for other platforms. Maybe some markup in the doc string that would allow to have platform-specific parts there? From cyd@stupidchicken.com Mon Jul 20 14:10:53 2009 Received: (at 3888) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 20 Jul 2009 21:10:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from pantheon-po38.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po38.its.yale.edu [130.132.50.97]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6KLAnba022462 for <3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:10:50 -0700 Received: from furry (dhcp128036014244.central.yale.edu [128.36.14.244]) (authenticated bits=0) by pantheon-po38.its.yale.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6KLAh5w009462 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:10:43 -0400 Received: by furry (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BD503C056; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:25:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Chong Yidong To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: Glenn Morris , 3888@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#3888: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:25:38 -0400 Message-ID: <87ws63gkzh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-YaleITSMailFilter: Version 1.2c (attachment(s) not renamed) > > I guess this is because term/pc-win.elc is now in SOME_MACHINE_LISP in > > src/Makefile.in. (It was not there in Emacs 22.) > > None of the *-win.elc files was in SOME_MACHINE_LISP in Emacs 22, > which is why documentation of several important functions and > variables were not in etc/DOC. But there were other platform-specific > files in SOME_MACHINE_LISP: dos-fns.elc, w32-fns.elc, vmsproc.elc, > etc. So the problem is not new. > > I think this calls for some infrastructure that is currently missing: > how to define a platform-specific implementation of an API without > clobbering the doc string for other platforms. Maybe some markup in > the doc string that would allow to have platform-specific parts there? I think, as a temporary solution, we should make the docstrings of all the affected functions and variables the same. If necessary, they can say somehthing like, "On Windows, this does X. On Nexstep, this does Y", and so on. From cyd@stupidchicken.com Mon Jul 20 14:33:39 2009 Received: (at 3888) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 20 Jul 2009 21:33:40 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER,RERE autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from pantheon-po44.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po44.its.yale.edu [130.132.50.78]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6KLXYQl026142 for <3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:33:35 -0700 Received: from furry (dhcp128036014244.central.yale.edu [128.36.14.244]) (authenticated bits=0) by pantheon-po44.its.yale.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6KLXSOq021546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:33:28 -0400 Received: by furry (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BFCBFC056; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:33:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Chong Yidong To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: Glenn Morris , 3888@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: Re: bug#3888: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:33:28 -0400 Message-ID: <874ot79h07.fsf@stupidchicken.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-YaleITSMailFilter: Version 1.2c (attachment(s) not renamed) As a work-around, I changed the affected doc-strings so that the different versions all say the same thing. Eli, could you check if this works OK on Windows? Right now, this change is only on the branch. I'll check this into the trunk, at a later date, only if we can't come up with a better solution. From eliz@gnu.org Mon Jul 20 20:12:25 2009 Received: (at 3888) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 21 Jul 2009 03:12:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.1 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mtaout3.012.net.il (mtaout3.012.net.il [84.95.2.7]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6L3CL3q018775 for <3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 20:12:22 -0700 Received: from conversion-daemon.i_mtaout3.012.net.il by i_mtaout3.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) id <0KN4006003EA5H00@i_mtaout3.012.net.il> for 3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 06:12:14 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.246.110]) by i_mtaout3.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) with ESMTPA id <0KN400AZA3KDS6V0@i_mtaout3.012.net.il>; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 06:12:14 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 06:12:13 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#3888: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation In-reply-to: <87ws63gkzh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Chong Yidong Cc: rgm@gnu.org, 3888@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii Message-id: <83ljmiohki.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87ws63gkzh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> > From: Chong Yidong > Cc: Glenn Morris , 3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:25:38 -0400 > > I think, as a temporary solution, we should make the docstrings of all > the affected functions and variables the same. This would also need a change in make-docfile, to warn about duplicate, but different doc strings for the same symbol. Otherwise, the doc strings will diverge again after a while. From monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Tue Jul 21 09:18:37 2009 Received: (at 3888) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 21 Jul 2009 16:18:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts13.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.34]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6LGIWWu025065 for <3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 09:18:34 -0700 Received: from toip5.srvr.bell.ca ([209.226.175.88]) by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.13 201-253-122-130-113-20050324) with ESMTP id <20090721161828.KXLR27263.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@toip5.srvr.bell.ca> for <3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:18:28 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AsgEAN+CZUpBXrWz/2dsb2JhbACBUdFIhAwFgiI Received: from bas1-montreal02-1096725939.dsl.bell.ca (HELO ceviche.home) ([65.94.181.179]) by toip5.srvr.bell.ca with ESMTP; 21 Jul 2009 12:23:29 -0400 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id B83B5B41BF; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:18:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Chong Yidong Cc: 3888@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#3888: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation Message-ID: References: <87ws63gkzh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:18:27 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87ws63gkzh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> (Chong Yidong's message of "Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:25:38 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.94 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I think, as a temporary solution, we should make the docstrings of all > the affected functions and variables the same. If necessary, they can > say somehthing like, "On Windows, this does X. On Nexstep, this does > Y", and so on. That sounds OK as a quick temporary solution. The longer-term solution is to say that such variables defined in various places are bugs. I.e. the definition should be moved to a common file. Stefan From eliz@gnu.org Tue Jul 21 11:30:57 2009 Received: (at 3888) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 21 Jul 2009 18:30:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_NIX1 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mtaout3.012.net.il (mtaout3.012.net.il [84.95.2.7]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6LIUqoQ016657 for <3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:30:53 -0700 Received: from conversion-daemon.i_mtaout3.012.net.il by i_mtaout3.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) id <0KN500F009V91S00@i_mtaout3.012.net.il> for 3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:30:46 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.246.110]) by i_mtaout3.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) with ESMTPA id <0KN500LXHA39O752@i_mtaout3.012.net.il>; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:30:46 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:30:45 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#3888: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Stefan Monnier Cc: cyd@stupidchicken.com, 3888@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii Message-id: <8363dl6g8a.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87ws63gkzh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> > From: Stefan Monnier > Cc: 3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, Eli Zaretskii > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:18:27 -0400 > > > I think, as a temporary solution, we should make the docstrings of all > > the affected functions and variables the same. If necessary, they can > > say somehthing like, "On Windows, this does X. On Nexstep, this does > > Y", and so on. > > That sounds OK as a quick temporary solution. The longer-term solution > is to say that such variables defined in various places are bugs. > I.e. the definition should be moved to a common file. Sorry, I don't follow. Each instance of the definitions of these identically-named symbols is a different platform-specific implementation of the same API. Sometimes, one implementation is in C, the other in Lisp. How can they be moved to the same file? What am I missing? From eliz@gnu.org Tue Jul 21 12:00:04 2009 Received: (at 3888) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 21 Jul 2009 19:00:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.0 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mtaout2.012.net.il (mtaout2.012.net.il [84.95.2.4]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6LIxx5X021288 for <3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:00:00 -0700 Received: from conversion-daemon.i_mtaout2.012.net.il by i_mtaout2.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) id <0KN500700B6PUP00@i_mtaout2.012.net.il> for 3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:59:53 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.246.110]) by i_mtaout2.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) with ESMTPA id <0KN5003CEBFSSS40@i_mtaout2.012.net.il>; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:59:53 +0300 (IDT) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:59:52 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#3888: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation In-reply-to: <874ot79h07.fsf@stupidchicken.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Chong Yidong Cc: rgm@gnu.org, 3888@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii Message-id: <834ot56evr.fsf@gnu.org> References: <874ot79h07.fsf@stupidchicken.com> > From: Chong Yidong > Cc: Glenn Morris , 3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:33:28 -0400 > > As a work-around, I changed the affected doc-strings so that the > different versions all say the same thing. Eli, could you check if this > works OK on Windows? It works on Windows, thanks. However: . the doc string of x-select-enable-clipboard: (defcustom x-select-enable-clipboard t "Non-nil means cutting and pasting uses the clipboard. -This is in addition to the primary selection." +This is in addition to, but in preference to, the primary selection." should IMO say that on Windows this is the default, and perhaps also that primary selection is not accessible to other programs there. . the doc string of x-colors: (defvar x-colors (mapcar 'car msdos-color-values) - "The list of colors available on a PC display under MS-DOS.") + "List of available colors for graphical frames. +For X, the list comes from the `rgb.txt' file,v 10.41 94/02/20. +For Nextstep, this is a list of non-PANTONE colors returned by +the operating system.") incorrectly says that these are colors for graphical frames, which the MS-DOS display isn't. . you didn't add doc strings to x-set-selection and x-get-selection on w32-fns.el -- was that on purpose? From monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Wed Jul 22 11:33:01 2009 Received: (at 3888) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 22 Jul 2009 18:33:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.pppoe.ca [206.248.154.182]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6MIWuBu008298 for <3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:32:58 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: As4EAML3ZkpFpZx3/2dsb2JhbACBUdJchA4FgiKEYg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,248,1246852800"; d="scan'208";a="42019334" Received: from 69-165-156-119.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.165.156.119]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 22 Jul 2009 14:32:50 -0400 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 3EED084A3; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:32:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: cyd@stupidchicken.com, 3888@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#3888: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation Message-ID: References: <87ws63gkzh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <8363dl6g8a.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:32:49 -0400 In-Reply-To: <8363dl6g8a.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:30:45 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.94 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > I think, as a temporary solution, we should make the docstrings of all >> > the affected functions and variables the same. If necessary, they can >> > say somehthing like, "On Windows, this does X. On Nexstep, this does >> > Y", and so on. >> >> That sounds OK as a quick temporary solution. The longer-term solution >> is to say that such variables defined in various places are bugs. >> I.e. the definition should be moved to a common file. > Sorry, I don't follow. Each instance of the definitions of these > identically-named symbols is a different platform-specific > implementation of the same API. Sometimes, one implementation is in > C, the other in Lisp. How can they be moved to the same file? A defvar can trivially be moved from Lisp to C. I don't see any obstacle here. As for functions, it's even easier since you can rename one of the two from `foo' to `foo-internal' or somesuch and move some code from one to the other. We've already done such things for lote and lots of functions. There's no technical problem here. Stefan From eliz@gnu.org Wed Jul 22 11:46:20 2009 Received: (at 3888) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 22 Jul 2009 18:46:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.0 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mtaout7.012.net.il (mtaout7.012.net.il [84.95.2.19]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6MIkEOE010572 for <3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:46:16 -0700 Received: from conversion-daemon.i-mtaout7.012.net.il by i-mtaout7.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0KN700C0055JVL00@i-mtaout7.012.net.il> for 3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:45:52 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.240.193]) by i-mtaout7.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0KN7001UZ5GF8GC0@i-mtaout7.012.net.il>; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:45:52 +0300 (IDT) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:45:51 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#3888: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Stefan Monnier Cc: cyd@stupidchicken.com, 3888@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii Message-id: <83r5w84kv4.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87ws63gkzh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <8363dl6g8a.fsf@gnu.org> > From: Stefan Monnier > Cc: cyd@stupidchicken.com, 3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com > Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:32:49 -0400 > > A defvar can trivially be moved from Lisp to C. I don't see any > obstacle here. As for functions, it's even easier since you can rename > one of the two from `foo' to `foo-internal' or somesuch and move some > code from one to the other. We've already done such things for lote and > lots of functions. There's no technical problem here. No technical problems, but experience teaches me that these solutions don't hold in practice, i.e. new non-internal functions that overload others pop up with time. Also, the `foo-internal' trick does not solve the problem of the doc string that needs to say something platform-specific without bothering too much the users of other platforms. Finally, there's (an admittedly very specific and quite rare) problem of ls-lisp and its ilk that overload the default implementation with something utterly different, and whose doc string _must_ be very different if we want it to be useful. I tried to think of an infrastructure that would solve all these use-cases in a relatively elegant way that would not become a maintenance burden. From monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Wed Jul 22 19:43:58 2009 Received: (at 3888) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 23 Jul 2009 02:43:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, MURPHY_SEX_L4 autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.teksavvy.com [206.248.154.182]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6N2hrhR027394 for <3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:43:55 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AtcEAMdrZ0pFpZx3/2dsb2JhbACBUdB/hA0FgiKEYg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.43,250,1246852800"; d="scan'208";a="42038735" Received: from 69-165-156-119.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO ceviche.home) ([69.165.156.119]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 22 Jul 2009 22:43:46 -0400 Received: by ceviche.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 65C1DB40C5; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:43:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Stefan Monnier To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: cyd@stupidchicken.com, 3888@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#3888: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation Message-ID: References: <87ws63gkzh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <8363dl6g8a.fsf@gnu.org> <83r5w84kv4.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:43:47 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83r5w84kv4.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 22 Jul 2009 21:45:51 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.94 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > No technical problems, but experience teaches me that these solutions > don't hold in practice, i.e. new non-internal functions that overload > others pop up with time. Yes, clearly, this solution is of the form "let's try and impose this discipline on ourselves in the future". But it's not like we usually shy away from coding conventions. > Also, the `foo-internal' trick does not solve the problem of the doc > string that needs to say something platform-specific without bothering > too much the users of other platforms. That is a docstring problem that needs to be addressed with good use of language and judgement. There's no silver bullet for this one. > Finally, there's (an admittedly very specific and quite rare) problem > of ls-lisp and its ilk that overload the default implementation with > something utterly different, and whose doc string _must_ be very > different if we want it to be useful. Yes, but again it's not difficult to find a way to do it right, e.g. by having a shared function whose docstring hyperlinks to the two possible implementation alternatives and their respective docstrings. We've done it already and can do it again. > I tried to think of an infrastructure that would solve all these > use-cases in a relatively elegant way that would not become a > maintenance burden. That would be swell, but my proposal is a lot more modest. Stefan From eliz@gnu.org Fri Jul 24 09:35:46 2009 Received: (at 3888-done) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 24 Jul 2009 16:35:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.0 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mtaout6.012.net.il (mtaout6.012.net.il [84.95.2.16]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6OGZfFo000935 for <3888-done@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:35:43 -0700 Received: from conversion-daemon.i-mtaout6.012.net.il by i-mtaout6.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0KNA00100OK78G00@i-mtaout6.012.net.il> for 3888-done@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:35:35 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.234.6]) by i-mtaout6.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0KNA000YVORAENG0@i-mtaout6.012.net.il>; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:35:35 +0300 (IDT) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:35:35 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#3888: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation In-reply-to: <834ot56evr.fsf@gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: 3888-done@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: cyd@stupidchicken.com Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii Message-id: <83k51y3up4.fsf@gnu.org> References: <874ot79h07.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <834ot56evr.fsf@gnu.org> > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:59:52 +0300 > From: Eli Zaretskii > Cc: 3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com > > > From: Chong Yidong > > Cc: Glenn Morris , 3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com > > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:33:28 -0400 > > > > As a work-around, I changed the affected doc-strings so that the > > different versions all say the same thing. Eli, could you check if this > > works OK on Windows? > > It works on Windows, thanks. > > However: > > . the doc string of x-select-enable-clipboard: > > (defcustom x-select-enable-clipboard t > "Non-nil means cutting and pasting uses the clipboard. > -This is in addition to the primary selection." > +This is in addition to, but in preference to, the primary selection." > > should IMO say that on Windows this is the default, and perhaps > also that primary selection is not accessible to other programs > there. > > . the doc string of x-colors: > > (defvar x-colors (mapcar 'car msdos-color-values) > - "The list of colors available on a PC display under MS-DOS.") > + "List of available colors for graphical frames. > +For X, the list comes from the `rgb.txt' file,v 10.41 94/02/20. > +For Nextstep, this is a list of non-PANTONE colors returned by > +the operating system.") > > incorrectly says that these are colors for graphical frames, which > the MS-DOS display isn't. > > . you didn't add doc strings to x-set-selection and x-get-selection > on w32-fns.el -- was that on purpose? I fixed all these problems on the branch now. From cyd@stupidchicken.com Fri Jul 24 09:50:12 2009 Received: (at 3888-done) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 24 Jul 2009 16:50:13 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from pantheon-po41.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po41.its.yale.edu [130.132.50.98]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6OGo8Hg003253 for <3888-done@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 09:50:09 -0700 Received: from furry (dhcp128036014244.central.yale.edu [128.36.14.244]) (authenticated bits=0) by pantheon-po41.its.yale.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n6OGnxQk023122 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:50:00 -0400 Received: by furry (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8F7E3C056; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:49:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Chong Yidong To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 3888-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#3888: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation References: <874ot79h07.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <834ot56evr.fsf@gnu.org> <83k51y3up4.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:49:58 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83k51y3up4.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:35:35 +0300") Message-ID: <87my6u10w9.fsf@stupidchicken.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.96 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-YaleITSMailFilter: Version 1.2c (attachment(s) not renamed) Eli Zaretskii writes: > I fixed all these problems on the branch now. Thanks. From rgm@gnu.org Fri Jul 24 10:41:25 2009 Received: (at 3888) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 24 Jul 2009 17:41:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.0 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, X_DEBBUGS_NO_ACK autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6OHfKkx012753 for <3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:41:21 -0700 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MUOli-0001KJ-Q9; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:41:18 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#3888: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation References: <83k51y3up4.fsf@gnu.org> cc: 3888@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spook: BATF enigma monarchist SEAL Team 6 FSF Albright BROMURE X-Ran: 7P12J,1`5C_Pm\O(p&"D[0GZ8nHv>?3S~&oMx9Mzp\*O(45?A6m]@(iQmrb>1';ZimS@B` X-Hue: black X-Attribution: GM X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:41:18 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Emacs bug Tracking System's message of "Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:40:06 +0000") Message-ID: <5wab2u9dxd.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Emacs bug Tracking System wrote: > I fixed all these problems on the branch now. Thanks; but since there is no automatic syncing from branch to trunk (AFAIK), someone needs to remember to find a better a solution for the trunk, or copy these doc fixes there. It might therefore be an idea to leave this bug open. From eliz@gnu.org Sat Jul 25 02:32:38 2009 Received: (at 3888-done) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 25 Jul 2009 09:32:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.3 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mtaout1.012.net.il (mtaout1.012.net.il [84.95.2.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n6P9WXB1012743 for <3888-done@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 25 Jul 2009 02:32:35 -0700 Received: from conversion-daemon.i-mtaout1.012.net.il by i-mtaout1.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0KNB00N00ZM02200@i-mtaout1.012.net.il> for 3888-done@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:32:26 +0300 (IDT) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.137.58]) by i-mtaout1.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0KNB00I78ZU2NO10@i-mtaout1.012.net.il>; Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:32:26 +0300 (IDT) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:32:26 +0300 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#3888: Some variables get the wrong, platform-specific, documentation In-reply-to: <5wab2u9dxd.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Glenn Morris Cc: 3888-done@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii Message-id: <83bpn93y6t.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83k51y3up4.fsf@gnu.org> <5wab2u9dxd.fsf_-_@fencepost.gnu.org> > From: Glenn Morris > cc: 3888@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com > Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:41:18 -0400 > > Emacs bug Tracking System wrote: > > > I fixed all these problems on the branch now. > > Thanks; but since there is no automatic syncing from branch to trunk > (AFAIK), someone needs to remember to find a better a solution for the > trunk, or copy these doc fixes there. It might therefore be an idea to > leave this bug open. I moved these fixes to the trunk. From unknown Mon Aug 18 18:00:06 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 14:24:12 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # A New Hope # A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away # something happened. # # Magically this resulted in the following # action being taken, but this fake control # message doesn't tell you why it happened # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator