From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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Mon, 30 Dec 2019 05:27:55 +0000 X-Readdle-Message-ID: 9501a8fa-9ac4-48ee-8054-622e9d8b9d41@Spark X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <9501a8fa-9ac4-48ee-8054-622e9d8b9d41@Spark> X-TMN: [OsZAkqQcYnvVUySN8/jB8g7oP62oyYDc] X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 46 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: b827796a-0775-4b92-fc0a-08d78ce9063f X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: SG2APC01HT179: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: q1QexVLeUbhuwXHF3IDRpbWT5GBSUfprw6QzWI5RBQj4c5CQir5G+hB1w8mgd7ZVBAj5V+IbzHQhzpwM1nJu4V+YRKkuxqpMRNzyyf8wgqeC362xTVWiH5yOh1QwwqUOI28zIZU/zwnaCSW+4I3emw5BvEtYn2t6RtFr4oCrqCW7PF8xDdghTcqcf/WA/S2lWxL/Vwn8jPB03zLRBX6EUj05L8NHoEvNx68/sS9GZhk= X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b827796a-0775-4b92-fc0a-08d78ce9063f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Dec 2019 05:27:55.8568 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SG2APC01HT179 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Windows 7 or 8 [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 40.92.254.62 X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) --5e098ad5_26f324ba_4379 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I think the web worker is a good design for GUI applications such as web = browser. The workers do heavy work and provide the results to the UI thre= ad. The UI thread only displays the result and responds to user input eve= nts which makes good user responsiveness. The web workers run in other context. They=C2=A0can=E2=80=99t access data= in the UI thread. They can only communicate with the UI thread by callin= g some limited APIs. See:=C2=A0https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web=5FWorkers=5F= API/Using=5Fweb=5Fworkers --5e098ad5_26f324ba_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
I think the web worker is a good design for GUI applicati= ons such as web browser. The workers do heavy work and provide the results = to the UI thread. The UI thread only displays the result and responds to us= er input events which makes good user responsiveness.

The web workers run in other context. They c= an=E2=80=99t access data in the UI thread. They can only communicate with t= he UI thread by calling some limited APIs.

--5e098ad5_26f324ba_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 15:24:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157771942211208 (code B ref 38807); Mon, 30 Dec 2019 15:24:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2019 15:23:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33209 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ilwtS-0002ui-Em for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 10:23:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33143) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ilwtR-0002uV-6x for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 10:23:41 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:35444) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ilwtL-0000zU-Pm; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 10:23:35 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3848 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ilwtL-0003Ht-7i; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 10:23:35 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 17:23:42 +0200 Message-Id: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:27:44 +0800) References: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:27:44 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > > I think the web worker is a good design for GUI applications such as web browser. The workers do heavy > work and provide the results to the UI thread. The UI thread only displays the result and responds to user > input events which makes good user responsiveness. > > The web workers run in other context. They can’t access data in the UI thread. They can only communicate > with the UI thread by calling some limited APIs. We have threads in Emacs, so you could start by using them, no? From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Dmitry Gutov Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 15:41:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157772045812880 (code B ref 38807); Mon, 30 Dec 2019 15:41:03 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2019 15:40:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33242 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ilxA9-0003Lg-W0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 10:40:58 -0500 Received: from mail-lj1-f175.google.com ([209.85.208.175]:38051) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ilxA8-0003LU-TU for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 10:40:57 -0500 Received: by mail-lj1-f175.google.com with SMTP id w1so11692299ljh.5 for <38807@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 07:40:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6lermEihTt39gyI0/6Q9rkdxcnXdyMEEzXLCsRFzHw4=; b=VD10K4yhJB7+INQCrSbYOKcZqaMJP/klOOFP4KQkvBNF5bXVXq61+QiAE0UIsNr+Tb mJfkCSiR4OTQ8gTeUZzZiC8ai3x4fZl8q+IoHisD26XbPUQIa/rGM1k8SThe+z7r49+X QFbv0uW3phWuk3HFgrrlh+p9xaT3or6bTRbi3c01/rq2DUB6vnRAqDv2E313z3gF+FaB iYOKOOI4/8VGJHiNraktIxlznJEv79KuC7at6fCdk1ncjHPjpycC2R1I1BVPvGx+Q8Ir yCery8D93Mpvk1PrMaRFOlgSxL4h1lGJB8HyzqNqfT98T2HJO7+fqJCXR/aVf3xtlqbg xVVQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=6lermEihTt39gyI0/6Q9rkdxcnXdyMEEzXLCsRFzHw4=; b=WHgV7L4xuGDqchVXa1hEfc78mfgado4omYV/mEEwwwix84duOsXK/AneiYZgm9NL7l Hk/Xxmw3K+b47iIGa9FLGTxcr/dYFq7zf8PknQQTme6SZKdWTVUic49YKUNvXELM4eIU 1IrHhn1mkmQc/rG46Wuoi7kl7/eJkwQAvrvq1VNB7eAEBHvJf5aoM44FsPTAXIgECB+q b3usRHDSOQoK+Po08I5MMp2uxnVRVV/1JhSmYtXUncfNkmoluZMrdxW/Phu7tpsu6t5f lmp9qB2DfXrgospHEQPlsXhtPJ6x281Ba1csNhtf917mRI9AiAGtBFGdR02qLQT2fl78 49ZA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVX13MyKLGlSYu05PkuAGLnD08phI4OljaBJKI7SYSoObx1L7TQ r/quy+ElrL8dEpIGLJxfa7F2DhgKq6Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwuluhjU2p3K4kAR+SAmgNTOEH+sAtCxTzm31f7mxmOHkqPw3ELaxBXnj9WnnVEguvTu+aG5g== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:910b:: with SMTP id m11mr39175614ljg.213.1577720450605; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 07:40:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.142] ([178.252.127.239]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id r15sm5201227ljh.11.2019.12.30.07.40.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 30 Dec 2019 07:40:49 -0800 (PST) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: <48d683e5-e0ec-2cbf-c8db-ad41cfc553e1@yandex.ru> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 18:40:49 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: On 30.12.2019 17:23, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > We have threads in Emacs, so you could start by using them, no? The main point of Web Workers is that they run in parallel to the main thread. So the bit about not being able to access "data in the UI thread" is about no need for synchronization, I suppose. Content analysis details: (1.8 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 1.5 RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB RBL: SORBS: sender is an abusable web server [178.252.127.239 listed in dnsbl.sorbs.net] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (dgutov[at]yandex.ru) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record 0.2 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at https://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.208.175 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 RBL: Average reputation (+2) [209.85.208.175 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) On 30.12.2019 17:23, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > We have threads in Emacs, so you could start by using them, no? The main point of Web Workers is that they run in parallel to the main thread. So the bit about not being able to access "data in the UI thread" is about no need for synchronization, I suppose. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 16:27:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Dmitry Gutov Cc: netjune@outlook.com, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157772318817507 (code B ref 38807); Mon, 30 Dec 2019 16:27:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2019 16:26:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33286 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ilxsB-0004YJ-La for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:26:27 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40967) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ilxsA-0004Y8-I0 for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:26:26 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:37114) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ilxs4-0006j4-JJ; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:26:20 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3893 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ilxs3-0004GR-NC; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:26:20 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 18:26:27 +0200 Message-Id: <835zhxn5jg.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <48d683e5-e0ec-2cbf-c8db-ad41cfc553e1@yandex.ru> (message from Dmitry Gutov on Mon, 30 Dec 2019 18:40:49 +0300) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <48d683e5-e0ec-2cbf-c8db-ad41cfc553e1@yandex.ru> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Dmitry Gutov > Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 18:40:49 +0300 > > On 30.12.2019 17:23, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > We have threads in Emacs, so you could start by using them, no? > > The main point of Web Workers is that they run in parallel to the main > thread. This reminds me of an old joke: when a shop owner was approached by an employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's start with one, and then gradually arrive at 5. More to the point, I did say "you could start", didn't I? From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Michael Albinus Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 18:32:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: HaiJun Zhang , 38807@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157773069629820 (code B ref 38807); Mon, 30 Dec 2019 18:32:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2019 18:31:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33378 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ilzpH-0007ku-UP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:31:36 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:57403) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ilzpG-0007kf-Nv for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:31:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1577730687; bh=Qa7PD/Sot3tuB8oUmiDFk2Xlv8unzgFlbMUAyeM+XR4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=NXi9XH9CGOYmiR8riGt6Qy5sWiV3yu5lE9zKdKAKYzev+poUmwgdFX62h/TVmkxcM AZno5T/3MZVKmiJOhFym5qGpZPn/vj3yXVoV+gFkTk7S5soLEfgzIv2Owzh8UuD3Us RwcLRvCrGzCIyybucxfH94qUMuNoMLEjZDNNzv6k= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from detlef.gmx.de ([212.86.59.161]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MrhQ6-1jZgdO3rfA-00niz8; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:31:27 +0100 From: Michael Albinus References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:31:26 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 30 Dec 2019 17:23:42 +0200") Message-ID: <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:jH+u7QkwjTWAGrBnfyN4XzC8uq6fK/P+tXw7M3P3DIbgTSt/Zmi v8qe0Lpf+JQ7gOIerGiwK6tBGW8nBS9QIkSZ6rb3+qZ10HYSYjweDHRoVmnT2B+rRmnobEH 7FrYrj+aGr2I+QpqQXAeODTtHQK+RTre8SKMJhGrvfhNo4CXmcAgF+NkCOSF+Wr+Iste7NO jB6iW9cbkcCJ+Dc+9D+Yw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:b2su1htjnuM=:5v4Q5uM5CbFabdNzMCxKWL EDiFous/keTBmpAhO1H1DVpUHgRWjUjzg0Hkk5aK8e2Xzic3/qJmwuNApzQxdrV1K+dGDT2TR gcRMNOWbJHVAUHKbo/nJwiMmCOsviMA4zwvomNKPiNrJSRvSej4mlFb8hZnHW1rAimng8J+/b 8eoEE6A4ROhgkFx8xcJQQOatEeGaKJX1zm20C99+bC916YgvMUoR63qaGBdi0n+1TgwcAdztZ um7+uagrVd4o5GSMnQo4oZ1zVjmZMQQocEuMFd5SG1bup4XmTLCZS8Pc+lvYWNPOLVMz7Zwxf IvxQnLuGIzCJe/3G88g7Z1HjQ7hNyzxxlFyhvxFdMv45l1KOO2Pf3asLndXhYHu2wY5ILuxk0 OGniFBwX4ppM9fCfNjQhhG+sVchYTNMM+qNIYKSiPPN8FtiZaJfS75Hhq+8+9gj7DLOh2tHj5 gHxu+0NfgGtd3otvh4DgmPaxGD7FGR9v6Rnsxx/effah43C++9mLDN2Mr97s/p+ySxpB5QDyP 0F7xlhgF6iI8a3qIlmZSaZS/vVnWuPerYiUFAhIOwFB7XabgwCMzAV5B5yXBbuMoLdONA6jBV m3uxiXEMRhzut78g+nNQh2JuT0BhiDn+CXO41l3JDpy/6tlJyYLt3daMKzI2+eLiOEeIQpZGj CXJ/FzMHGEvfzhqkEtRRtxJ8RFF9WkNlKKGfw0nck8+9RU9KO+8ChMiwBrrfI1W5s3RkbhgZi UJnXWgxO9qrzYZeIYsXQ5839EqsoER/Hw0Tr5CyyMwreigwkSjzSi1EeLZ9p2fcETFu9TEzFO +yyGOcL6udZxcYxPKF+94TS9+oxk76ZYHgW/zpT8cDYAzvikDzxSYy8G8lUfjk+D2rquzzvgq 3BI15M5DWaxm2j6urysNxsqi4CyN6bKcUdus1vvKts5vUHSCz9qGuHouu+yk6HX1VIcw3qAcj +g3ZkZCm9MtB8nBDO0JtmGvaNS9KT4gaFCUBkPH5jL77vlV6mndOnqoEDeivUYY7+MPHw+SYR 1V4KzeIdPI0MP+O+mKeAHLmPtmBzyN31LOln65NC8M+2uL5Nupe+9oms04R7aJ6D0TvqWim6p KV/kQ88HKQjuMM/eV6CIpYDn4ndZ9/NrVG1KOda2v8YRrnUn8wZn28sGsiZjBsqe/gOqMf+tH lQUX79Zut2ljAP0Qgka+fX2h/6NW61Ekk5g/SxHY+EVyeg5aZ89JcXg6eaNfuiBcEk03lw7S+ Ani7HKKl8OWLYCXCGFZ/OzU3wynNPf9yj8PhRYlzMARTzLRjsIYY14a7Aubk= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:27:44 +0800 >> From: HaiJun Zhang >>=20 >> I think the web worker is a good design for GUI applications such as >> web browser. The workers do heavy >> work and provide the results to the UI thread. The UI thread only >> displays the result and responds to user >> input events which makes good user responsiveness.=20 >>=20 >> The web workers run in other context. They can=E2=80=99t access data in = the >> UI thread. They can only communicate >> with the UI thread by calling some limited APIs. > > We have threads in Emacs, so you could start by using them, no? The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we don't have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea. Best regards, Michael. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:20:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Albinus Cc: netjune@outlook.com, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.15777335922099 (code B ref 38807); Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:20:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2019 19:19:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33416 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1im0a0-0000Xn-CA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 14:19:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35804) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1im0Zx-0000XX-MW for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 14:19:51 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:39800) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1im0Zs-00027V-7e; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 14:19:44 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2968 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1im0Zr-0006x5-N6; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 14:19:44 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 21:19:50 +0200 Message-Id: <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> (message from Michael Albinus on Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:31:26 +0100) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Albinus > Cc: HaiJun Zhang , 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:31:26 +0100 > > The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we don't > have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea. We do have that on MS-Windows. Except that you'll be surprised how much of "UI" in Emacs cannot be done in a separate thread, mainly because the Lisp machine is under such complete control of what the UI does, and you cannot run several instances of the Lisp machine simultaneously and asynchronously. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:23:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: michael.albinus@gmx.de Cc: netjune@outlook.com, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.15777337752481 (code B ref 38807); Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:23:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2019 19:22:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33420 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1im0cw-0000dx-Qt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 14:22:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41601) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1im0cu-0000de-U7 for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 14:22:53 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:39843) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1im0cp-00053M-E9; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 14:22:47 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3157 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1im0co-0007DI-K3; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 14:22:47 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 21:22:54 +0200 Message-Id: <83zhf9lisx.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Mon, 30 Dec 2019 21:19:50 +0200) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 21:19:50 +0200 > From: Eli Zaretskii > Cc: netjune@outlook.com, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > because the Lisp machine is under such complete control of what the UI > does This might confuse. What I meant is that the Lisp machine controls a lot of what the UI does, not the other way around (of course). From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: HaiJun Zhang Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 00:41:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Albinus , Eli Zaretskii Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157775283029727 (code B ref 38807); Tue, 31 Dec 2019 00:41:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Dec 2019 00:40:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33629 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1im5aI-0007jP-5G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:40:30 -0500 Received: from mail-oln040092253059.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.253.59]:6103 helo=APC01-SG2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1im5aF-0007j9-6B for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:40:29 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM3:19=EF=BC=8CEli Za= retskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > =46rom: Michael Albinus > > Cc: HaiJun Zhang , 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org > > Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:31:26 +0100 > > > > The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we do= n't > > have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea. > > We do have that on MS-Windows. Except that you'll be surprised how > much of =22UI=22 in Emacs cannot be done in a separate thread, mainly > because the Lisp machine is under such complete control of what the UI > does, and you cannot run several instances of the Lisp machine > simultaneously and asynchronously. What about the following idea: 1. Make the current lisp machine be customized which has two profiles: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + full featured: as the current running lisp machine in ema= cs =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + subset one: without all UI functions 2. Run the full featured one as emacs does now. It acts as the master lis= p machine(for UI only), which behave like the UI thread(process) in the w= eb browser. 3. Run some subset ones for workers. Workers are started by the master li= sp machine. Workers can send messages to the master machine by calling so= me APIs. The messages are copied to the master lisp machine, so GCs don=E2= =80=99t need to work across machines. 4. Provide some APIs for them to communicate with each other. --5e0a98ec_2e48f044_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6= =97=A5 +0800 AM3:19=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
From: Michael Albinus = <michael.albinus@gmx.de>
Cc: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@outlook.com>, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:31:26 +0100

The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we don't have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.

We do have that on MS-Windows. Except that you'll be surprised how
much of "UI" in Emacs cannot be done in a separate thread, mainly=
because the Lisp machine is under such complete control of what the UI
does, and you cannot run several instances of the Lisp machine
simultaneously and asynchronously. 

What about the following idea:
1. Make the current lisp machine be customized which has two profiles:=
    + full featured: as the current running lisp machine= in emacs
    + subset one: without all UI functions
2. Run the full featured one as emacs does now. It acts as the master = lisp machine(for UI only), which behave like the UI thread(process) in the = web browser.
3. Run some subset ones for workers. Workers are started by the master= lisp machine. Workers can send messages to the master machine by calling s= ome APIs. The messages are copied to the master lisp machine, so GCs don=E2= =80=99t need to work across machines.
4. Provide some APIs for them to communicate with each other.

--5e0a98ec_2e48f044_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 16:37:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157781016714080 (code B ref 38807); Tue, 31 Dec 2019 16:37:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Dec 2019 16:36:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35040 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imKV4-0003f1-KL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:36:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:48190) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imKV3-0003eZ-9K for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:36:05 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:51699) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1imKUx-00014J-Kz; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:35:59 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1304 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1imKUl-0007fq-Dg; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 11:35:57 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 18:35:57 +0200 Message-Id: <83lfqslafm.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Tue, 31 Dec 2019 08:40:06 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 08:40:06 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > We do have that on MS-Windows. Except that you'll be surprised how > much of "UI" in Emacs cannot be done in a separate thread, mainly > because the Lisp machine is under such complete control of what the UI > does, and you cannot run several instances of the Lisp machine > simultaneously and asynchronously. > > What about the following idea: > 1. Make the current lisp machine be customized which has two profiles: > + full featured: as the current running lisp machine in emacs > + subset one: without all UI functions > 2. Run the full featured one as emacs does now. It acts as the master lisp machine(for UI only), which behave > like the UI thread(process) in the web browser. > 3. Run some subset ones for workers. Workers are started by the master lisp machine. Workers can send > messages to the master machine by calling some APIs. The messages are copied to the master lisp > machine, so GCs don’t need to work across machines. > 4. Provide some APIs for them to communicate with each other. The Lisp interpreter already sort-of "queues" display changes, because it only changes Lisp data structures, and then the display engine references those data structures at display time. So those data structures serve as a kind-of "queue", since redisplay runs when Emacs is idle (i.e., the last Lisp command completed its job). But the problem is in the other direction: it's not that Lisp somehow "drives" the UI, it's that the UI frequently calls into Lisp as part of its job. The simplest example is mode-line format: it includes references to variables, and can also include :eval forms that call the interpreter. Your idea in fact means to have several isolated Lisp machines in the same process. But how can we do something like that without a very radical redesign of Emacs, when so many things in Emacs are implicitly part of the global state? Buffers, global variables, windows, frames--all those are global resources, and every thread will want to access them. Emacs was not designed to allow that. Your idea can be implemented with two processes, though. And there is already a package called emacs-async which does that: https://github.com/jwiegley/emacs-async The disadvantage is that it is cumbersome to share data between the two instances of Emacs, and large amounts of data will make that inefficient. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:36=EF=BC=8CEli Zar= etskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > The Lisp interpreter already sort-of =22queues=22 display changes, beca= use > it only changes Lisp data structures, and then the display engine > references those data structures at display time. So those data > structures serve as a kind-of =22queue=22, since redisplay runs when Em= acs > is idle (i.e., the last Lisp command completed its job). > > But the problem is in the other direction: it's not that Lisp somehow > =22drives=22 the UI, it's that the UI frequently calls into Lisp as par= t > of its job. The simplest example is mode-line format: it includes > references to variables, and can also include :eval forms that call > the interpreter. > It is much clearer to me now. We can keep them all as the UI thread. > Your idea in fact means to have several isolated Lisp machines in the > same process. But how can we do something like that without a very > radical redesign of Emacs, when so many things in Emacs are implicitly > part of the global state=3F Buffers, global variables, windows, > frames--all those are global resources, and every thread will want to > access them. Emacs was not designed to allow that. > All those global resources are not accessible by workers. Workers can onl= y access network, file system and other non-global resources. They only d= o the following things: 1. retrieve content from network, parse the data, and send the result(lis= p data) to the UI thread to present it 2. communicate with subprocesses, parse the data from subprocesses, and s= end the result to the UI thread 3. do file indexing and send the index result to the UI thread 4. do other heavy work like mathematicl calculation and deep learning, se= nd the result to the UI thread Let the UI thread do as less work as possible. > Your idea can be implemented with two processes, though. And there is > already a package called emacs-async which does that: > > https://github.com/jwiegley/emacs-async > I knew this package. It is a good idea. Modern web browsers also use sepa= rate processes to render page content(one or more pages per process). The= y design specific IPC to let the worker processes to communicate with the= main(UI) process. They have good performance and good user responsivenes= s. I think emacs is much like web browsers. Both render large text content a= nd care user responsiveness. We can learn from them. > The disadvantage is that it is cumbersome to share data between the > two instances of Emacs, and large amounts of data will make that > inefficient. We may design an IPC for their=C2=A0communication. --5e0c0b19_5451cf49_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97= =A5 +0800 AM12:36=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
The Lisp interpreter a= lready sort-of "queues" display changes, because
it only changes Lisp data structures, and then the display engine
references those data structures at display time. So those data
structures serve as a kind-of "queue", since redisplay runs when = Emacs
is idle (i.e., the last Lisp command completed its job).

But the problem is in the other direction: it's not that Lisp somehow
"drives" the UI, it's that the UI frequently calls into Lisp as p= art
of its job. The simplest example is mode-line format: it includes
references to variables, and can also include :eval forms that call
the interpreter.


It is much clearer to me now. We can keep them all as the UI thread.

Your idea in fact mean= s to have several isolated Lisp machines in the
same process. But how can we do something like that without a very
radical redesign of Emacs, when so many things in Emacs are implicitly
part of the global state? Buffers, global variables, windows,
frames--all those are global resources, and every thread will want to
access them. Emacs was not designed to allow that.


All those global resources are not accessible by workers.= Workers can only access network, file system and other non-global resource= s. They only do the following things:
1. retrieve content from network, parse the data, and sen= d the result(lisp data) to the UI thread to present it
2. communicate with subprocesses, parse the data from sub= processes, and send the result to the UI thread
3. do file indexing and send the index result to the UI t= hread
4. do other heavy work like mathematicl calculation and d= eep learning, send the result to the UI thread

Let the UI thread do as less work as possible.


Your idea can be imple= mented with two processes, though. And there is
already a package called emacs-async which does that:

https://github.com/jwiegley/emacs-async


I knew this package. It is a good idea. Modern web browsers also use separa= te processes to render page content(one or more pages per process). They de= sign specific IPC to let the worker processes to communicate with the main(= UI) process. They have good performance and good user responsiveness. =

I think emacs is much like web browsers. Both render larg= e text content and care user responsiveness. We can learn from them.

The disadvantage is th= at it is cumbersome to share data between the
two instances of Emacs, and large amounts of data will make that
inefficient. 

We may design an IPC for their communication.

--5e0c0b19_5451cf49_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8830=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM11:40=EF=BC=8CDmitr= y Gutov =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > On 30.12.2019 17:23, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > We have threads in Emacs, so you could start by using them, no=3F > > The main point of Web Workers is that they run in parallel to the main > thread. > > So the bit about not being able to access =22data in the UI thread=22 i= s > about no need for synchronization, I suppose. Yes. That is what I mean. They can do heavy work without pausing user inp= ut. --5e0c0cb6_368db37e_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8830=E6= =97=A5 +0800 PM11:40=EF=BC=8CDmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>=EF= =BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
On 30.12.2019 17:23, E= li Zaretskii wrote:
We have threads in Ema= cs, so you could start by using them, no?

The main point of Web Workers is that they run in parallel to the main
thread.

So the bit about not being able to access "data in the UI thread"= is
about no need for synchronization, I suppose. 

Yes. That is what I mean. They can do heavy work without pausing user = input.

--5e0c0cb6_368db37e_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM2:31=EF=BC=8CMichae= l Albinus =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we don'= t > have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea. > We can even keep all in emacs currently as the =E2=80=9CUI thread=E2=80=9D= and run another lisp machine for a worker. --5e0c0f03_7e448de9_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6= =97=A5 +0800 AM2:31=EF=BC=8CMichael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de&= gt;=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we don't have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.


We can even keep all in emacs currently as the =E2=80=9CUI thread=E2=80=9Da= nd run another lisp machine for a worker.

--5e0c0f03_7e448de9_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:26=EF=BC=8CEli Z= aretskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > This reminds me of an old joke: when a shop owner was approached by an > employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's start > with one, and then gradually arrive at 5. > > More to the point, I did say =E2=80=9Cyou could start=22, didn't I=3F I can=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you explain it=3F --5e0c0ffe_cbe5be9_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6= =97=A5 +0800 AM12:26=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC= =8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
This reminds me of an = old joke: when a shop owner was approached by an
employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's start
with one, and then gradually arrive at 5.

More to the point, I did say =E2=80=9Cyou could start", didn't I? = ;

I can=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you explain it?
--5e0c0ffe_cbe5be9_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 03:38:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157784986523938 (code B ref 38807); Wed, 01 Jan 2020 03:38:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jan 2020 03:37:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35424 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imUpM-0006E2-TQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 22:37:45 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33562) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imUpL-0006Dm-30 for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 22:37:43 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:59493) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1imUpE-0006sy-LJ; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 22:37:36 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1851 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1imUpD-0001Dc-JH; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 22:37:36 -0500 Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 05:37:48 +0200 Message-Id: <8336czlucz.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:20:25 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <48d683e5-e0ec-2cbf-c8db-ad41cfc553e1@yandex.ru> <835zhxn5jg.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:20:25 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > 在 2019年12月31日 +0800 AM12:26，Eli Zaretskii ，写道： > > This reminds me of an old joke: when a shop owner was approached by an > employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's start > with one, and then gradually arrive at 5. > > More to the point, I did say “you could start", didn't I? > > I can’t understand this. Can you explain it? Whatever application you have in mind, try implementing it using what we already have regarding Lisp threads, and see if the limitations Michael mentioned are really so grave. It could be that for some applications what we have is good enough. And if not, you will collect some experience and understand better what additional features do you need. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: HaiJun Zhang Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 03:49:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Albinus , Eli Zaretskii , arthur miller Cc: "38807@debbugs.gnu.org" <38807@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157785049425188 (code B ref 38807); Wed, 01 Jan 2020 03:49:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jan 2020 03:48:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35441 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imUzS-0006Y9-LG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 22:48:14 -0500 Received: from mail-oln040092254061.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.254.61]:15904 helo=APC01-PU1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imUzO-0006XW-Qx for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline My understanding of the display flow: 1. an event comes which causes redisplay 2. the display engine prepares the glyph matrix 3. convert the glyph matrix to bitmap and display it I think lots of work are in 2. During the work in 2, the display code nee= ds to access many resources in lisp machine and even may eval lisp forms.= The resources it accesses are too wildcard, so that we can't copy the re= sources to it and put them to queue. =46or multi-threading, we need a glo= bal lock. =E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM9:39=EF=BC=8Carthur= miller =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > Cool idea. > > I have a question.=C2=A0 Is it even necessary for lisp machine to contr= ol UI=3F > > Couldn't lisp machine post its =22ui events=22 to a some kind of render= queue and maybe input queue, instead of drawing and handling stuff immed= iately in an OS window=3F That could decouple drawing from the rest and c= ould open for some other interesting stuff when it comes for rendering. > > I don't know maybe another thread for input queue. Probably too much wo= rk and I really don't know if that would be possible with Emacs architect= ure, at least as of current. > > I mean does lisp machine really need to know where it draws=3F It could= as well just =22draw=22 some events to a queue which could be rendered a= way in different passes, by different threads and so on. > > Skickat fr=C3=A5n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. > > > > -------- Originalmeddelande -------- > =46r=C3=A5n: HaiJun Zhang > Datum: 2019-12-31 01:42 (GMT+01:00) > Till: Michael Albinus , Eli Zaretskii > Kopia: 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org > =C3=84mne: bug=2338807: =5B=46eature request=5D: Support lisp workers l= ike web workers. > > =E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM3:19=EF=BC=8CEli = Zaretskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > > =46rom: Michael Albinus > > > Cc: HaiJun Zhang , 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org > > > Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:31:26 +0100 > > > > > > The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we = don't > > > have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea. > > > > We do have that on MS-Windows. Except that you'll be surprised how > > much of =22UI=22 in Emacs cannot be done in a separate thread, mainly= > > because the Lisp machine is under such complete control of what the U= I > > does, and you cannot run several instances of the Lisp machine > > simultaneously and asynchronously. > > What about the following idea: > 1. Make the current lisp machine be customized which has two profiles: > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + full featured: as the current running lisp machine in e= macs > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + subset one: without all UI functions > 2. Run the full featured one as emacs does now. It acts as the master l= isp machine(for UI only), which behave like the UI thread(process) in the= web browser. > 3. Run some subset ones for workers. Workers are started by the master = lisp machine. Workers can send messages to the master machine by calling = some APIs. The messages are copied to the master lisp machine, so GCs don= =E2=80=99t need to work across machines. > 4. Provide some APIs for them to communicate with each other. > --5e0c166b_697d2d2_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
My understanding of the display flow:
1. an event comes which causes redisplay
2. the display engine prepares the glyph matrix
3. convert the glyph matrix to bitmap and display= it

I think lots of work are in 2. During the work in= 2, the display code needs to access many resources in lisp machine and eve= n may eval lisp forms. The resources it accesses are too wildcard, so that = we can't copy the resources to it and put them to queue. For multi-threadin= g, we need a global lock.

=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM9:39=EF= =BC=8Carthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81= =93=EF=BC=9A
Cool idea.

I have a question.  Is it even necessary for lisp ma= chine to control UI?

Couldn't lisp machine post its "ui events" to a= some kind of render queue and maybe input queue, instead of drawing and ha= ndling stuff immediately in an OS window? That could decouple drawing from = the rest and could open for some other interesting stuff when it comes for = rendering. 

I don't know maybe another thread for input queue. Probab= ly too much work and I really don't know if that would be possible with Ema= cs architecture, at least as of current. 

I mean does lisp machine really need to know where it dra= ws? It could as well just "draw" some events to a queue which cou= ld be rendered away in different passes, by different threads and so on.

Skickat fr=C3=A5n = min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.



-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Fr=C3=A5n: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@outlook.com>
Datum: 2019-12-31 01:42 (GMT+01:00)
Till: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de>, Eli Zaretskii &l= t;eliz@gnu.org>
Kopia: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org
=C3=84mne: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web= workers.

=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6= =97=A5 +0800 AM3:19=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
From: Michael Albinus = <michael.albinus@gmx.de>
Cc: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@outlook.com>, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:31:26 +0100

The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we don't have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.

We do have that on MS-Windows. Except that you'll be surprised how
much of "UI" in Emacs cannot be done in a separate thread, mainly=
because the Lisp machine is under such complete control of what the UI
does, and you cannot run several instances of the Lisp machine
simultaneously and asynchronously. 

What about the following idea:
1. Make the current lisp machine be customized which has two profiles:=
    + full featured: as the current running lisp machine= in emacs
    + subset one: without all UI functions
2. Run the full featured one as emacs does now. It acts as the master = lisp machine(for UI only), which behave like the UI thread(process) in the = web browser.
3. Run some subset ones for workers. Workers are started by the master= lisp machine. Workers can send messages to the master machine by calling s= ome APIs. The messages are copied to the master lisp machine, so GCs don=E2= =80=99t need to work across machines.
4. Provide some APIs for them to communicate with each other.

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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline OK. I got it. One example is lsp-mode for dart language. One completion result is 10000= lines. And emacs doesn=E2=80=99t respond for about 3=7E4s. This experien= ce kept me away from lsp-mode for half a year. =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM11:37=EF=BC=8CEli Zar= etskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:20:25 +0800 > > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang > > Cc: 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org > > > > =E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:26=EF=BC=8CE= li Zaretskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > > > This reminds me of an old joke: when a shop owner was approached by a= n > > employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's star= t > > with one, and then gradually arrive at 5. > > > > More to the point, I did say =E2=80=9Cyou could start=22, didn't I=3F= > > > > I can=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you explain it=3F > > Whatever application you have in mind, try implementing it using what > we already have regarding Lisp threads, and see if the limitations > Michael mentioned are really so grave. It could be that for some > applications what we have is good enough. And if not, you will > collect some experience and understand better what additional features > do you need. --5e0c18c6_8f8b73f_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
OK. I got it.
One example is lsp-mode for dart language. One completion= result is 10000 lines. And emacs doesn=E2=80=99t respond for about 3~4s. T= his experience kept me away from lsp-mode for half a year.
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97= =A5 +0800 AM11:37=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 = 11:20:25 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@outlook.com>
Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org

=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:26=EF=BC=8CEli= Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

This reminds me of an old joke: when a shop owner was approached by an
employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's start
with one, and then gradually arrive at 5.

More to the point, I did say =E2=80=9Cyou could start", didn't I?

I can=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you explain it?

Whatever application you have in mind, try implementing it using what
we already have regarding Lisp threads, and see if the limitations
Michael mentioned are really so grave. It could be that for some
applications what we have is good enough. And if not, you will
collect some experience and understand better what additional features
do you need.
--5e0c18c6_8f8b73f_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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Wed, 1 Jan 2020 04:02:45 +0000 X-Readdle-Message-ID: 9452e46a-5c62-437e-babc-f96779ef407a@Spark X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <9452e46a-5c62-437e-babc-f96779ef407a@Spark> X-TMN: [DW0LlUEJ16j1nzyQHCTnWHb0ra651Ztj] X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 48 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 9b31e73c-025e-4a7e-2b06-08d78e6f7575 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: PU1APC01HT082: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: GIrqSYCvlH2BQwPmsTnGDUm27izAelGoyeAqIHl+c/SG7LvLMAZabj4c59owvJkPcdZyuvRCYwH5mgda3mzz9MexVVIdsyvVk7T4fWyu1GvmeNEf+rqJqKUpyRTah7Mka6p4KRXJeEvsCCWZo+P+q7uX4frP3rySRcY8k/mSJ/WjtiJsArYn0Gm2FdVb88VT X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9b31e73c-025e-4a7e-2b06-08d78e6f7575 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jan 2020 04:02:46.1900 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PU1APC01HT082 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --5e0c19e1_20f4bdad_4379 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsiveness= . As far as I known, the extensions of VSCode runs in separate process. =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM11:57=EF=BC=8CHaiJun = Zhang =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > OK. I got it. > One example is lsp-mode for dart language. One completion result is 100= 00 lines. And emacs doesn=E2=80=99t respond for about 3=7E4s. This experi= ence kept me away from lsp-mode for half a year. > =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM11:37=EF=BC=8CEli Z= aretskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:20:25 +0800 > > > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang > > > Cc: 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org > > > > > > =E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:26=EF=BC=8C= Eli Zaretskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > > > > > This reminds me of an old joke: when a shop owner was approached by= an > > > employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's st= art > > > with one, and then gradually arrive at 5. > > > > > > More to the point, I did say =E2=80=9Cyou could start=22, didn't I=3F= > > > > > > I can=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you explain it=3F > > > > Whatever application you have in mind, try implementing it using what= > > we already have regarding Lisp threads, and see if the limitations > > Michael mentioned are really so grave. It could be that for some > > applications what we have is good enough. And if not, you will > > collect some experience and understand better what additional feature= s > > do you need. --5e0c19e1_20f4bdad_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good use= r responsiveness. As far as I known, the extensions of VSCode runs in separ= ate process.
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97= =A5 +0800 AM11:57=EF=BC=8CHaiJun Zhang <netjune@outlook.com>=EF= =BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
OK. I got it.
One example is lsp-mode for dart language. One completion= result is 10000 lines. And emacs doesn=E2=80=99t respond for about 3~4s. T= his experience kept me away from lsp-mode for half a year.
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97= =A5 +0800 AM11:37=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 = 11:20:25 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@outlook.com>
Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org

=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:26=EF=BC=8CEli= Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

This reminds me of an old joke: when a shop owner was approached by an
employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's start
with one, and then gradually arrive at 5.

More to the point, I did say =E2=80=9Cyou could start", didn't I?

I can=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you explain it?

Whatever application you have in mind, try implementing it using what
we already have regarding Lisp threads, and see if the limitations
Michael mentioned are really so grave. It could be that for some
applications what we have is good enough. And if not, you will
collect some experience and understand better what additional features
do you need.
--5e0c19e1_20f4bdad_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Michael Albinus Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 09:15:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 38807@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157787009415184 (code B ref 38807); Wed, 01 Jan 2020 09:15:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jan 2020 09:14:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35617 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ima5e-0003wq-Ku for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 04:14:54 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.18]:49485) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ima5b-0003wc-VV for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 04:14:53 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1577870083; bh=5frByy/K8kl8UCTrb7eAOI/KSE0eDJ7jSVMqBPJnuvk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=DpcGmmZBy6Ik6UX+CDEgjW+O6alzP2lHIYRAy2H82BXaIfPoiambZQNUu1tOpwpHc 5WF9SjmMgis9sIxPFXndodeks22j7h8SEGolA+Fnotsc95egvw/ped4AkH3qMzsGyj DR6NtsEDUE2juE1hTI/QTY0nswJJ1D3jT1araMlo= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from detlef.gmx.de ([212.86.59.161]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MS3mz-1jBVVI2cn5-00TTom; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 10:14:43 +0100 From: Michael Albinus References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 10:14:42 +0100 In-Reply-To: (HaiJun Zhang's message of "Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:16:13 +0800") Message-ID: <878smrtu65.fsf@gmx.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:s3jN35efVEk7BzC27aDiW6Z4Kf/5PrTC77eUpYpjtqWv6O9YkAX +oxbQpjKKupE9DlY/uVvTga0+LHc4FhWO9rijyqOjnS5i1MTsU7txi+GBrlb/rMYclZCdmI pV6Rr701KAqwOg9XMORDzwMqEx47YH7cK/kNBWflzuZwzysTY9dvZ63n/a3oMPmZZrrTCKq c5NzynYbl0DK+71+N8Lcw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:vxTTWhv1tFk=:8yn9gWoQuWuFbJDLDbzQP3 SSn2yvsD//LoZ+dx2j5l1WZPZ0RO1CcALWqfSNhIsLb39VIXip/Xc5cILwRISea1SiZxi2U2/ muOhAIoou+UUk7RH3WYYoYplXJ9sz/NG1Al9z7FzzsF+Si8KgFCG/ywoPXe0Cpv+gSRZJhcS1 3t5K1a/5rfOMnaIYvmQxFCf0+QsQJq+pv9CDkzYDdyrI6kKEog4dM8xhO/KixekUTzKohpeNY qRcx+C5ORVaJV/fWE6ZbIAlea1gfvSKGMEKGNe1QIpoUapQnoj6xTKnUo87WeR8kic+KXvwvI n93KPO7DGY3INu7aguzsFRYupx+jOCTVmyaE7r5WJUfR0cBkIBmlFB0YG95bBZETUmYoOxG4e 69Lcqi4Vz7vOAAqgQDgi+dObLdAQTiDKMPk4Kmls9LW3GBKIkM0N9LCD1LruTJqpYE3ojieey 8W1ZwhvbsltwKRuPe8kM2HY2L+DVibrOT4P9tGbibOOjdunTHfH+Mmnk+F2Ik2i8bWiSQmrep PHfteBv0Jcm13sO01OQ60T42wSMvryygBCyLLRir90gFBEqJuZf8pAtS2u0Cw2QCVO2JtZx1u 7RzntqQSeq1Oidl75UpknGe1jJopTBNuvamtwdFAF9iqp49NEIdkv/8j1UEo+xX++Hu3GUNU3 bhr/hi2TgFXq+SdNeKfg9vNNlDTU4BigZf7jdQFA7oSRiCLw9UeyRlnr7j4aIxo94JeLi1yg0 9txqBleCGZIHSln4Jqbl454e5yONe47wwgRDPb1Y6x900CLc0wNw0o5TTph/SMiT/USijg1+b Jk5lO7PkC9qQVc1tlms3XkCyJbhLastaBhRhxZetdDvemW1Qt2ChNzy9NsvOAXP3wclLwUn9h M0IqDsR5iDBAg3snRJ/YCE2jNQoIMz/JT3zb09bRNm10d8G1saEKhzm7/H0HDG7uS4y4XwSVH mRXFUOMvzPewGbMx6CUEcBIkhcQrNpXmTrmHBJhtDPSKg2tSvMkfeFOV7uTjzsKQL5sRCB6jB KJtmlBaQLjokCUyGDMHx4eBg64rDiMDy1uXj4rankDZQsRypmGmaAlkysSP1jd58cPwEPPc+1 Fj+fnkMLWcsDfL+vWVVvbfTTBzlXK9wrO8gZiao75ECC7hk2P0s2xFijfKmDCIe/9JJuoe5bP sXRuENR0lJrISSOEg1qdM8RX/5Bl7BST7AfvgpU13XaSvSl8xQj+d8QrTCx+LZIqOs0uNqjkR Mp5SVk5ft5loTAqT7yn9Hgh4CVsDLI8bp62Y0UxfDJuaiHYluAh1FslyA3F4= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) HaiJun Zhang writes: > The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we > don't > have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea. > > We can even keep all in emacs currently as the =E2=80=9CUI thread=E2=80= =9Dand run > another lisp machine for a worker.=20 I'm not expecting to get a UI thread with all glories it is specified for web workers. I would already be happy if we could find a solution for supporting user input in a threaded package, as it is discussed in bug#25214 and bug#32426. Best regards, Michael. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. References: In-Reply-To: Resent-From: arthur miller Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 14:53:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang , Eli Zaretskii , Michael Albinus Cc: "38807@debbugs.gnu.org" <38807@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157789035129666 (code B ref 38807); Wed, 01 Jan 2020 14:53:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jan 2020 14:52:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36365 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imfMN-0007iQ-HN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 09:52:31 -0500 Received: from mail-oln040092067045.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.67.45]:3369 helo=EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imfMK-0007i7-R4 for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 09:52:30 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=PPS8jfVcAEEEh31jOut3WMzFikcYu6n5DmX48pPNuPYA0lKMLJYqByVdcBDr7cZoXaZpRehWZSxoJZJ0MFcBHO2X8Mm+eMyBXrVpZks5vLxj7gfmPq1RvjfLmBtlNm5UpLsdd1GhMfHJcr5kP8sndXRSzRg2+YFoQTcdo7zZSVn73OwhawdULSO6gxQ1h0rf+1+vRyu7ieGpkApjfUPyh4n2R4dKXigVKE5o0SoF885acoSvaBinqG6m7MjwWguEKS/RwdgCznSutLg2pGzmA591iKDT3aXKY1dfUmzIn5jimYD8rlMYxg5E4d3i/wbFLVrcaX+u27jNZzdqy1tFiA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=47s797ss8CCH2IMlZiSA6DhnReTKH51SbVNm9lFV+qY=; b=UoB5cFU6ZmQJxNiGO45NoKcWuuCZarP/WrD4+z+RYcRB/j4xc1VC3hVqsloujbhrZe9FG4x+P57r3b7jf/aIgZ9XaYrzgKW6mH+8euojvVjDuc9Ki2403D0JCMRSffKJ8PXxmQAJlM6BwB0CYZXEF5ITpzKWHQpPtaIen82zwxIj5yyIVblBZ9k+9QcHSC/ZxBlV/6Zj4wP8/jYyaC2Tu0If0Wtw49FR2uzqsdr9VR68ReullQ7SrUjLsnP7hokgPQEXu2aEsn2P5fgL1XTyeM3O65+Q0yZYVWYsdrJBiSM8nOqGuiFtmvNcXu0XDvsq3hFs+L0Vki3CEB+J+3/iOQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=47s797ss8CCH2IMlZiSA6DhnReTKH51SbVNm9lFV+qY=; b=gC9HyVuBnlXc3Ads20k2j/vwVec91qSeLzJjuPc/FrO+fy8tOjT0JVWZKo1wI1BIQ7DsLw9WC9g8JfVVWBg08sEoG8VX27ci51B+XHCm65SBjNfdhoU95IorQqtb2HBWPrEX9nH+5zUBB6CfHH2HSrQdQPG6QLALEqND3K7upCclvfG3o0pGPhc7YUE5rG6tapLexq6CDF8nye5jLzs6jIBKJBpvCZGzpNiap4dUt1Ix5Fdsxpg8sbH8gZ4dV1aNyqlVa5shuqnyV072hUpVCjOr1oRyDUPZilZL23HAngEDhhKHV/OF4EZJqocozLvsFHLh0fpShu/u6lM/mJXZdw== Received: from AM5EUR02FT025.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.51) by AM5EUR02HT054.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.9.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2602.11; Wed, 1 Jan 2020 14:52:22 +0000 Received: from VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.152.8.57) by AM5EUR02FT025.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.110) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2602.11 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 1 Jan 2020 14:52:22 +0000 Received: from VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::35f2:9ea2:efd6:1d46]) by VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::35f2:9ea2:efd6:1d46%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2602.012; Wed, 1 Jan 2020 14:52:22 +0000 From: arthur miller Thread-Topic: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 15:33:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.15778927541916 (code B ref 38807); Wed, 01 Jan 2020 15:33:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jan 2020 15:32:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37388 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imfz5-0000Un-1e for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 10:32:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39745) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imfz3-0000UZ-SB for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 10:32:30 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:37499) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1imfyy-00073f-7Q; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 10:32:24 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1323 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1imfyx-0008V7-IC; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 10:32:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 17:32:37 +0200 Message-Id: <83y2urjip6.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Wed, 1 Jan 2020 12:02:35 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <48d683e5-e0ec-2cbf-c8db-ad41cfc553e1@yandex.ru> <835zhxn5jg.fsf@gnu.org> <8336czlucz.fsf@gnu.org> <39f1e59e-08db-4862-98db-c31c3bcbab06@Spark> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 12:02:35 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsiveness. As far as I known, the > extensions of VSCode runs in separate process. Can you even remotely compare the degree of control the VSCode extension language can have on the UI, with what Emacs gives you? From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 16:22:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.15778956726724 (code B ref 38807); Wed, 01 Jan 2020 16:22:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jan 2020 16:21:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37434 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imgkC-0001kO-Gb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 11:21:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33851) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imgkA-0001k6-6Q for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 11:21:11 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:37994) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1imgk4-0001rv-50; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 11:21:04 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4323 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1imgk3-0000KJ-Ga; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 11:21:03 -0500 Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 18:21:16 +0200 Message-Id: <83r20jjgg3.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Wed, 1 Jan 2020 10:59:31 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfqslafm.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 10:59:31 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > Your idea in fact means to have several isolated Lisp machines in the > same process. But how can we do something like that without a very > radical redesign of Emacs, when so many things in Emacs are implicitly > part of the global state? Buffers, global variables, windows, > frames--all those are global resources, and every thread will want to > access them. Emacs was not designed to allow that. > > All those global resources are not accessible by workers. Workers can only access network, file system and > other non-global resources. They only do the following things: > 1. retrieve content from network, parse the data, and send the result(lisp data) to the UI thread to present it > 2. communicate with subprocesses, parse the data from subprocesses, and send the result to the UI thread > 3. do file indexing and send the index result to the UI thread > 4. do other heavy work like mathematicl calculation and deep learning, send the result to the UI thread Then these threads cannot really run Lisp at all, nor even directly affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data. We already have that available: you can write a module which Emacs can load, and that module can then start any number of threads doing any calculations or network communications you want. See emacs-module.h. > The disadvantage is that it is cumbersome to share data between the > two instances of Emacs, and large amounts of data will make that > inefficient. > > We may design an IPC for their communication. For some data structures, yes. But buffer text and long strings are problematic, because the text can be very large. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 16:24:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de, arthur.miller@live.com Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.15778958037027 (code B ref 38807); Wed, 01 Jan 2020 16:24:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jan 2020 16:23:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37450 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imgmJ-0001pH-H8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 11:23:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36801) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1imgmH-0001p1-9H for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 11:23:22 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:38040) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1imgmB-0007SM-MB; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 11:23:15 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4457 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1imgmB-0000Vc-1D; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 11:23:15 -0500 Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 18:23:29 +0200 Message-Id: <83png3jgce.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:47:49 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:47:49 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: "38807@debbugs.gnu.org" <38807@debbugs.gnu.org> > > My understanding of the display flow: > 1. an event comes which causes redisplay More often than not, it is not an event, but a command that changes Lisp data (buffer text, overlays, text properties, position of point, new or deleted windows, etc.). > 2. the display engine prepares the glyph matrix > 3. convert the glyph matrix to bitmap and display it > > I think lots of work are in 2. Actually, 3 is also a lot of work. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM10:52=EF=BC=8Carthur = miller =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > > We can even keep all in emacs currently as > > the =E2=80=9CUI thread=E2=80=9Dand run another lisp machine > for a w= orker. > > Isn=E2=80=99t emasc-server/emacsclient already already that=3F Yes and no. The emacsclient do too less work to be a worker. Ratio of the= ir work is 10:1=3F I would it to be 1:10=3F Workers should do most heavy = work. --5e0e9dbd_5953172f_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM10:52=EF=BC=8Carthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com>= =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

> We can even keep all in= emacs currently as 
> the =E2=80=9CUI thread= =E2=80=9Dand run another lisp machine > for a worker.

Isn=E2=80=99t emasc-server/emacsclient already already th= at? 

Yes and no. The emacsclient do too less work to be a worker. Ratio of = their work is 10:1? I would it to be 1:10? Workers should do most heavy wor= k.

--5e0e9dbd_5953172f_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM11:32=EF=BC=8CEli Zar= etskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 12:02:35 +0800 > > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang > > Cc: dgutov=40yandex.ru, 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org > > > > While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsive= ness. As far as I known, the > > extensions of VSCode runs in separate process. > > Can you even remotely compare the degree of control the VSCode > extension language can have on the UI, with what Emacs gives you=3F I will try to do it when I have time. --5e0ea18f_44380727_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM11:32=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 = 12:02:35 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@outlook.com>
Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org

While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsiveness. = As far as I known, the
extensions of VSCode runs in separate process.

Can you even remotely compare the degree of control the VSCode
extension language can have on the UI, with what Emacs gives you? 
=


I will try to do it when I have time.

--5e0ea18f_44380727_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM5:14=EF=BC=8CMichael = Albinus =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > HaiJun Zhang writes: > > > The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we > > don't > > have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea. > > > > We can even keep all in emacs currently as the =E2=80=9CUI thread=E2=80= =9Dand run > > another lisp machine for a worker. > > I'm not expecting to get a UI thread with all glories it is specified > for web workers. I would already be happy if we could find a solution > for supporting user input in a threaded package, as it is discussed in > bug=2325214 and bug=2332426. > > Best regards, Michael. The threading support introduced in emacs 26 is cool. But it is too compl= ex when every thread can control UI and interact with user. While the web= worker model is much simpler. --5e0eac91_71482545_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM5:14=EF=BC=8CMichael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de>= =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
HaiJun Zhang <netju= ne@outlook.com> writes:

The point seems to be = that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we
don't
have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.

We can even keep all in emacs currently as the =E2=80=9CUI thread=E2=80=9Da= nd run
another lisp machine for a worker.

I'm not expecting to get a UI thread with all glories it is specified
for web workers. I would already be happy if we could find a solution
for supporting user input in a threaded package, as it is discussed in
bug#25214 and bug#32426.

Best regards, Michael. 

The threading support introduced in emacs 26 is cool. But it is too co= mplex when every thread can control UI and interact with user. While the we= b worker model is much simpler.

--5e0eac91_71482545_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:21=EF=BC=8CEli Zar= etskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > Then these threads cannot really run Lisp at all, nor even directly > affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads > that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data. Is it because there are many global resources in infrastructure of networ= k and filesystem functions=3F > We > already have that available: you can write a module which Emacs can > load, and that module can then start any number of threads doing any > calculations or network communications you want. See emacs-module.h. > Yes. Is there an efficient way for threads in module to communicate with = emacs core=3F It is used for threads to send result data to emacs core. T= he only thing I known is sending signals to emacs which is not too=C2=A0e= fficient. I would like emacs core to create an event queue for modules an= d modules can send events to the queue. Then it is possible to run guile in a module and write guile programs the= re. > > The disadvantage is that it is cumbersome to share data between the > > two instances of Emacs, and large amounts of data will make that > > inefficient. > > > > We may design an IPC for their communication. > > =46or some data structures, yes. But buffer text and long strings are > problematic, because the text can be very large. Yes. I don=E2=80=99t known how web browsers do this. Their web pages are = rendered by different processes and then displayed in the same window. --5e0eb298_5204a191_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97= =A5 +0800 AM12:21=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
Then these threads can= not really run Lisp at all, nor even directly
affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads
that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data.  

Is it because there are many global resources in infrastr= ucture of network and filesystem functions? 

We
already have that available: you can write a module which Emacs can
load, and that module can then start any number of threads doing any
calculations or network communications you want. See emacs-module.h.


Yes. Is there an efficient way for threads in module to c= ommunicate with emacs core? It is used for threads to send result data to e= macs core. The only thing I known is sending signals to emacs which is not = too efficient. I= would like emacs core to create an event queue for modules and modules can= send events to the queue.

Then it is possible to run guile in a module and = write guile programs there.


The disadvantage is th= at it is cumbersome to share data between the
two instances of Emacs, and large amounts of data will make that
inefficient.

We may design an IPC for their communication.

For some data structures, yes. But buffer text and long strings are
problematic, because the text can be very large. 

Yes. I don=E2=80=99t known how web browsers do this. Their web pages are re= ndered by different processes and then displayed in the same window.



--5e0eb298_5204a191_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:21=EF=BC=8CEli Zar= etskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > Then these threads cannot really run Lisp at all, nor even directly > affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads > that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data. =46or web worker, they have different contexts. The following is from MDN= (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web=5FWorkers=5FAPI/Usi= ng=5Fweb=5Fworkers): workers run in another global context that is different from the current=C2= =A0window. Thus, using the=C2=A0windowshortcut to get the current global = scope (instead of=C2=A0self) within a=C2=A0Worker=C2=A0will return an err= or. The worker context is represented by a=C2=A0DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope=C2= =A0object in the case of dedicated workers (standard workers that are uti= lized by a single script; shared workers use=C2=A0SharedWorkerGlobalScope= ). A dedicated worker is only accessible from the script that first spawn= ed it, whereas shared workers can be accessed from multiple scripts. --5e0eb658_622d8102_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97= =A5 +0800 AM12:21=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

Then these threads cannot really run Lisp at all, nor even directly
affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads
that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data.  
=

For web worker, they have different contexts. The following is from MD= N(https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_= Workers_API/Using_web_workers):

workers run in another global context = that is different from the current windowshortcut to get the current global scope (instead of&n= bsp;self) within a=  Worker will return an error.

The worker context is represented by a=  DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope = object in the case of dedicated workers (standard workers that are utilized= by a single script; shared workers use SharedWorkerGlobalScope). A dedicated worker is only = accessible from the script that first spawned it, whereas shared workers ca= n be accessed from multiple scripts.


--5e0eb658_622d8102_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:23=EF=BC=8CEli Zar= etskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:47:49 +0800 > > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang > > Cc: =2238807=40debbugs.gnu.org=22 <38807=40debbugs.gnu.org> > > > > My understanding of the display flow: > > 1. an event comes which causes redisplay > > More often than not, it is not an event, but a command that changes > Lisp data (buffer text, overlays, text properties, position of point, > new or deleted windows, etc.). > Thanks for your explanation. > > 2. the display engine prepares the glyph matrix > > 3. convert the glyph matrix to bitmap and display it > > > > I think lots of work are in 2. > > Actually, 3 is also a lot of work. Then 3 can be done in a separate thread from 2 and 1=3F --5e0eb8f5_20f88ea6_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97= =A5 +0800 AM12:23=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 = 11:47:49 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@outlook.com>
Cc: "38807@debbugs.gnu.org" <38807@debbugs.gnu.org>

My understanding of the display flow:
1. an event comes which causes redisplay

More often than not, it is not an event, but a command that changes
Lisp data (buffer text, overlays, text properties, position of point,
new or deleted windows, etc.).


Thanks for your explanation. 

2. the display engine = prepares the glyph matrix
3. convert the glyph matrix to bitmap and display it

I think lots of work are in 2.

Actually, 3 is also a lot of work. 

Then 3 can be done in a separate thread from 2 and 1?

--5e0eb8f5_20f88ea6_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 06:00:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157803115623984 (code B ref 38807); Fri, 03 Jan 2020 06:00:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jan 2020 05:59:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40333 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inFzQ-0006Em-AC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 00:59:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34941) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inFzP-0006EZ-4q for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 00:59:15 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:42669) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1inFzJ-0004Ia-JY; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 00:59:09 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2563 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1inFzI-0004Cj-8P; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 00:59:08 -0500 Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 07:59:05 +0200 Message-Id: <83r20hhyhi.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Fri, 3 Jan 2020 10:52:59 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <878smrtu65.fsf@gmx.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 10:52:59 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > The threading support introduced in emacs 26 is cool. But it is too complex when every thread can control UI > and interact with user. While the web worker model is much simpler. How do you write a useful Lisp application for a thread if you have no way of displaying any messages? Besides, some low-level APIs you'd use in any Lisp will display messages even if your code doesn't. So some solution for user interaction from threads is still needed, or else the thread system will not be useful for writing Lisp programs. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 06:03:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157803138024394 (code B ref 38807); Fri, 03 Jan 2020 06:03:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jan 2020 06:03:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40337 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inG31-0006LO-QH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 01:03:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39862) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inG30-0006LB-Ml for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 01:02:59 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:42739) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1inG2u-0004ds-TT; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 01:02:52 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2792 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1inG2u-0005SD-55; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 01:02:52 -0500 Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 08:02:51 +0200 Message-Id: <83png1hyb8.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Fri, 3 Jan 2020 11:18:42 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfqslafm.fsf@gnu.org> <83r20jjgg3.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 11:18:42 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > Then these threads cannot really run Lisp at all, nor even directly > affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads > that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data. > > Is it because there are many global resources in infrastructure of network and filesystem functions? Yes. Every variable you want to reference is either global or local to some buffer, for example. Just look at any Lisp application in Emacs and try to analyze its dependence on the global state, and you will immediately see the problem. > Is there an efficient way for threads in module to communicate with emacs core? It is used for threads to > send result data to emacs core. The only thing I known is sending signals to emacs which is not too efficient. > I would like emacs core to create an event queue for modules and modules can send events to the queue. There are ways of communications (e.g., you can call any Emacs function), but if more is needed, we can add that. Some design is necessary, though, to identify what else is needed and why. > Yes. I don’t known how web browsers do this. Their web pages are rendered by different processes and then > displayed in the same window. Shared memory? From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 06:07:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de, arthur.miller@live.com Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157803161324726 (code B ref 38807); Fri, 03 Jan 2020 06:07:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jan 2020 06:06:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40341 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inG6k-0006Qg-CL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 01:06:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:57172) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inG6i-0006QU-CN for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 01:06:48 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:42773) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1inG6c-00083d-ET; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 01:06:42 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3022 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1inG6b-0000YL-Py; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 01:06:42 -0500 Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 08:06:40 +0200 Message-Id: <83o8vlhy4v.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Fri, 3 Jan 2020 11:45:51 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> <83png3jgce.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 11:45:51 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, arthur.miller@live.com, > 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > 2. the display engine prepares the glyph matrix > 3. convert the glyph matrix to bitmap and display it > > I think lots of work are in 2. > > Actually, 3 is also a lot of work. > > Then 3 can be done in a separate thread from 2 and 1? How would that help? Until 3 is done, the user doesn't see the display updated. And if you think 3 doesn't touch any Lisp, then thats not true, just see how many times you find "Lisp_Object" in, say, xterm.c. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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Resent-From: arthur miller Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:39:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang , Eli Zaretskii Cc: "38807@debbugs.gnu.org" <38807@debbugs.gnu.org>, "dgutov@yandex.ru" Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.15780586938830 (code B ref 38807); Fri, 03 Jan 2020 13:39:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jan 2020 13:38:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40497 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inN9V-0002II-Lw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 08:38:13 -0500 Received: from mail-oln040092066054.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.66.54]:2382 helo=EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inN9U-0002I5-Ay for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 08:38:09 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=RC3ZsUhtp4zQNSO+1IBix4mDryVdes0OglJJ0JQZcyth984M+1ty4zz6sMoLY8mdHDvesJDUpUdZslWhupWT6EVtbeoy8ECzm5RqxRsVS809FJu0+2pysU+tBHHjyYpgaa9b8xZxGWTYUNamrnzzDaEO3pj/FLj0AfEVapbRK+JiIs2ymQFd6Tjt73j4Rbsi43X5r1NfMXa/TrRyXWAcQ0KaNgi3aZF3a8ZiwR9JaT7tl7LK0VKjx83x+52ocljQDcHJxbUTOvpkWcwuiO/iL61n/iJraJ77FYJRIB1EFMVpJFwpl57pmeQrgkMQYEfiOtDedeBR6M1YEgmy45EHpg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=cb5Ycnx8RtdP7d6NWyhBYcsAJoRfxlPUQIajtrQf+QY=; b=B0anOn14/JU+Et1XLFGI9KEnkCYdRATXAj4t1YiVt3XK/tgWj2YHF6icjKTrrnH+9ju1HXMDnEzDchkaNKvHavCcq2nBMJOENJ2M4uiTxuO+gEHpxvercd46+EAPL4B7vGI4fi+zFVu2S4iXBb2BLHX3wHNiV3gc+5sXxzxxbmlilSLwbUa0c4HobqXRkhqyNqRXARlSKhLuTfe2lspuGYK/uIhol4mlx8Fa8J9VKqn+cpsmvSddta3yKAY7xG2EcTToiDy8NX6P0g3e2sCk5BRUbAgEBPnPxFIMK9d0tXq1p7LQtyyLtReO2NOwmT4NodtwNSP1xCWewHTJGKCOEw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=cb5Ycnx8RtdP7d6NWyhBYcsAJoRfxlPUQIajtrQf+QY=; b=Re4itTrmmAx63hQvBZB6gy9e9htUwnjZKb/QyABXAH/dJHXu+t8SNsvuvsTY2J0k212r3tQJofXW9Y89i3bV+NMLDMCagtv4M3wdA5P8YxELbJxffACINrJaCKAu8w9YuBxGAjzRnRWigGG6evNv/+s+q8sRPl2xzULfY+YkhrYkvNk6UGR+lcAc+Nx90YWJeRlRdxLJuqTqo+YTDmhiHNXyZ8PumGRAt+w0f6d5UR+UUj2kOfMYBT1tnmpphRtGxI2L9YllWKbv1rgGd4nU+BGKmmMOscIKD2lbiQmJpgGuPDnFCEPBE0wU3p5ZNrQirNLlGGV91oWM0kBY5jPoeQ== Received: from DB5EUR01FT016.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.4.52) by DB5EUR01HT243.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.5.235) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2602.11; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 13:38:01 +0000 Received: from VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.152.4.51) by DB5EUR01FT016.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.4.255) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2602.11 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 13:38:01 +0000 Received: from VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::35f2:9ea2:efd6:1d46]) by VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::35f2:9ea2:efd6:1d46%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2602.012; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 13:38:01 +0000 From: arthur miller Thread-Topic: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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Resent-From: arthur miller Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 14:12:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang , Eli Zaretskii Cc: "38807@debbugs.gnu.org" <38807@debbugs.gnu.org>, "michael.albinus@gmx.de" Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157806067511863 (code B ref 38807); Fri, 03 Jan 2020 14:12:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jan 2020 14:11:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40508 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inNfR-00035B-QN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 09:11:14 -0500 Received: from mail-oln040092064099.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.64.99]:44650 helo=EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inNfO-00034e-QM for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 09:11:08 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=e2aWnpGPq/fO6JdRG5d6rz2WhhH41F5E7hvQPJBUt5wa9KmTHeC+5/GIz7hn1GWrHFr61IO0KUu9dQEVKErGLTfmeka438E+nEdpxW8TeC9GRjI5mEbpmh2dB20kqFlP12j7kCaWA4/sct8iuYGaHH162FHxepJrWwAlYdcf4QDnHscZobQsBT/rm3LFR8cnlEz3bkK/Qhgb8S5uASjQKNQObN+HO/3JDHBAsMc01nKGtr+w1DeUeyJ+MZeCwYv0DKu+UJ0gu8DgJRCzkUH8lHIbsPMwR8aX8GxNEz+KSGbbZ/3uc+wsC9UVduum+aXik52mxRJqc0p7uU1p7fMBHQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=UKd+qHExJenaF+wJUcNIWoNG4M1LrOKYBtvHqxGDi8U=; b=BMTWC+oO+sXUP9cq02U4s1uwkMY3D8AT0dTyN3OKLhITnoIqQ8NZ6j5FcH0jx3ccitqGy7vIWDCl/723FAVWh4Jp48p/gltPMl9XpZCGL3+1y6bGS2SoP2VhDVOANSixN4Gce54kBj2KJeQZf3hq+IEMJB+Uzlh/tAkAaTq4gU3TiIW5prqGy2AWIW+jdB3svzAYZY4k+6RpPjnCLEOUpDu9jbt+QIbIGUU+i/l2XyUd3n3+8gCy9lIoNGTW2GR1Mv0t8tsy9wguHHtWjDKHRKRwJBbp4zZZduBYgFo/b2vfWoNyOyKU3/BsxCQcjo5UR9lubFxtqD4qU8h5oQ3oXw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=UKd+qHExJenaF+wJUcNIWoNG4M1LrOKYBtvHqxGDi8U=; b=BZu+FpeNXmo2oWSYbdWQdOnl18urzNM7UqymfhfnKxzyUGLfwJ4hzOG6PEUPVQ9YMqRi8BSxxJYtCjRBPh6wdVL38M+0uxIVBmrE1F68mnkCLNu2QvN56r1tZgm30AgIy8qcSNGvF3xuBYEl5tNGfbIpfj+kxGkL43FttjzAFBSYvBAPsjCQw5NjIybHHPkGxz/Jz6JghEIdrSK9Z6LTo0OneirqHQDWLigv2bkE/tpe6E3I5zAEzohkL4SpjNCiyAgU5vdlHF2zW58rLeEnSbtcy2oEs5unaLX7JmJJcbdZXb/LXsEdXB5ET2iNm8uOKiLMPXNyUhqvahVoc9y46w== Received: from HE1EUR01FT018.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.55) by HE1EUR01HT162.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.1.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2602.11; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 14:10:59 +0000 Received: from VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.152.0.55) by HE1EUR01FT018.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.175) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2602.11 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 14:10:59 +0000 Received: from VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::35f2:9ea2:efd6:1d46]) by VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::35f2:9ea2:efd6:1d46%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2602.012; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 14:10:58 +0000 From: arthur miller Thread-Topic: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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References: In-Reply-To: Resent-From: arthur miller Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 14:20:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , HaiJun Zhang Cc: "38807@debbugs.gnu.org" <38807@debbugs.gnu.org>, "michael.albinus@gmx.de" Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157806118912634 (code B ref 38807); Fri, 03 Jan 2020 14:20:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jan 2020 14:19:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40520 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inNnp-0003Hi-8R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 09:19:49 -0500 Received: from mail-oln040092065109.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.65.109]:53315 helo=EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inNnn-0003HU-BH for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 09:19:47 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=YnYIcGQXxc5NLMqWqap2y8FURQoOgucTuAuxHTW+n9SIHCcbw3DksYXdl5rpxl24nxmJsgyeVuzRhYLmmC9v2VzPK9uv8naRu5VlARMtp5JSCIgDF6bju+t490Rt/obJQjYkbvpIXCKklE8WYGbzq+4rg6d05JtqJAvuekBccfPS3Iu5ni/9pJrAAotgnGnlQXfJA2boI+oKfhF1JqKhk4TPWtRUliLEUgPLNuvYZem8zVjzO4v4DMk3hImf0Do3u1T5r5K/ltkkQvk8CAkQ+RkT77Ez2/cnh8yqC2mJMkgrBL5OiyRfa8HqCv+SYPSMmMKD6/agNUMQlkfgfa7LpQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=N/2msxsM9BKH2X+DmYfFoeqqdAMuELyErS8rsiYm/9s=; b=gQcgIQgTRVCsU4jpEOoVHRKoCTJOiPOlzdHvc3j+R0y6QB4QgD+HO+0POKN3qlWHgU657g390JrPgK+89Xw139E4MnwW6wA3hJLIl6Mb1aFdUMJeJYY8aFh0vTuyImHD4il6C6vhO8llLAEun+P16hOi4bxDE4uqoaDfTE7WXSiVg9RBL98H52nVteq9rIO/l3BHZzmVqfzBUqhk6s/cFDEebW74mfoaTfvssrZcBwfbiCmGmbxrPO9K2ueOxnGyv97fqHyAPTkWnRlj9sUpB3OWXb3OTyc84LIKQtgXDYkAS/+BZ98y/jeywxZ6Fqvic1vNYezYalO0/GD/jpvT8A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=N/2msxsM9BKH2X+DmYfFoeqqdAMuELyErS8rsiYm/9s=; b=kSl+3wfhXmlUPOwTI1SMPeVmdaLtEQu9BFjUgFZQLhcQysf/TCDfMUqZOdkqTMX251tY3XaUjcIlA43y4f5zakk+cVJwPY3FDr3RiaaQ6izySyaU6lDyLgxNVRv13Ct/aj9ttszA7NqsxPbCeg7FFBCnkmJv9hoZQRfmMujmsE6PsVeUMwwJk47BYFm3HcEWwE3sGqs09PJq12P/I6a3isCgj4HQ8w3p3Iy5OvrnGgAHp7DOEsgFq39H+Wd1WQwMnx4lXx7igBIMOt0Gv3ab/rw5IA59Waz4d/AuxN1FMlq9fASkE6qTaWyYLKIRH7rRJRfij7fB7lOKIu3bGYIu0g== Received: from HE1EUR01FT018.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.59) by HE1EUR01HT181.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.1.133) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2602.11; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 14:19:40 +0000 Received: from VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.152.0.55) by HE1EUR01FT018.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.175) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2602.11 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 14:19:40 +0000 Received: from VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::35f2:9ea2:efd6:1d46]) by VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::35f2:9ea2:efd6:1d46%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2602.012; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 14:19:40 +0000 From: arthur miller Thread-Topic: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 14:27:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: arthur miller Cc: netjune@outlook.com, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157806161413272 (code B ref 38807); Fri, 03 Jan 2020 14:27:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jan 2020 14:26:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40524 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inNug-0003Ry-1Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 09:26:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42561) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inNue-0003Rk-3x for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 09:26:52 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:59641) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1inNuY-0002lP-48; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 09:26:46 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2325 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1inNuW-0003Wv-RR; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 09:26:45 -0500 Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 16:26:43 +0200 Message-Id: <834kxcipjw.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from arthur miller on Fri, 3 Jan 2020 13:35:49 +0000) References: , X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: arthur miller > CC: "38807@debbugs.gnu.org" <38807@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 13:35:49 +0000 > > I mean that emacsclient is sort of rendering thread while Emacs server is sort of hard working part. No, it isn't. emacsclient just sends a command to Emacs telling it to visit a file and display it in a frame. All the rendering is done by the "server", i.e. Emacs itself. > I have honestly never looked at the code for server/client so I don't know how separation is done. It's easy to see that by reading server.el. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 14:40:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: arthur miller Cc: netjune@outlook.com, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157806237914466 (code B ref 38807); Fri, 03 Jan 2020 14:40:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jan 2020 14:39:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40534 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inO71-0003lF-Gp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 09:39:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33643) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inO6y-0003ky-VC for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 09:39:37 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:59929) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1inO6s-000072-On; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 09:39:30 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3093 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1inO6q-0007FR-Sz; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 09:39:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 16:39:27 +0200 Message-Id: <8336cwioyo.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from arthur miller on Fri, 3 Jan 2020 14:19:40 +0000) References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: arthur miller > CC: "michael.albinus@gmx.de" , "38807@debbugs.gnu.org" > <38807@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 14:19:40 +0000 > > > Then 3 can be done in a separate thread from 2 and 1? > > > How would that help? Until 3 is done, the user doesn't see the > > Couldn't prepare and converting to bitmap, inclusive rendering the bitmap bo done in a separate thread from > displaying the same? We don't really generate a bitmap, it's an inaccurate description of what the terminal-specific backend of the display engine does. And if you change it to generate a bitmap, then doing so is most of the work, and it needs to consult Lisp data, at least in its current incarnation. So proposing that this runs in a separate thread still doesn't solve the problem of separating some significant workload from Lisp, that is something that needs to be designed. > Of course, displaying can not be done until previous work has finished, so I don't know if Emacs could > interleave the work with something else useful? In general, it is not useful to have a display system that doesn't update the screen in near-real time. If you ever tried editing via a slow remote connection, you know what I mean. So display must happen very soon after the command which triggers it finishes, or users will complain. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: arthur miller Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 15:16:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: "netjune@outlook.com" , "38807@debbugs.gnu.org" <38807@debbugs.gnu.org>, "michael.albinus@gmx.de" Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157806450718381 (code B ref 38807); Fri, 03 Jan 2020 15:16:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jan 2020 15:15:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41283 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inOfH-0004mM-By for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 10:15:07 -0500 Received: from mail-oln040092066090.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.66.90]:1667 helo=EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1inOfF-0004lZ-0z for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 10:15:02 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=e8GdGQGl31KYdBVQ2fHTmyWSLy1vCOa6oqfII08rgaOqZuOFt7SMIAA5K+vFn5RqTykaUmZvZbH2xPtNqDIrUMegYOyhl9I5nzuvudnVAwKG38tEzcCecsMoJK1qCbUvNSDgXzxeeByk3m+UfMAFF92oeGMlBnj38rsC+SIGXbk8UEZfQLBnNurzGpGxVC8llDDBD0YH+bn0Ky2gk2KNdcy2oFULe+/w4YozEULkik4e9oLqaskQHmTUThKezf1DEzOXEks92w1A/vH+/bEHDpXQ6b34BQfOpr/uwpnjavYZI2aGJNdFRX5wpJ9ODaTBRZiu+3bJcLBvLXzkzPcHpQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=AESnoYVnFQFkJMRv4Cfc2nxTPKKOOmjTDt10dgnM/4Y=; b=Z79t1ndAUejS4NrFuUMOktHKYP08XDem2ZbePciZRclYh35b7wWHdg4DQhPdynUNmo2rYJ1NBTb7U4TnHc/vNB2zOzx47/iOY/vKvO8ssT5mUc+CfF9zkVY/1urwiIhcT+PvmTJl7G4hmg3I6pguCMnIQQiNDXsWH083a3LJHTRJw7IA79mNifH3/XTfW3w+jx5SOL5ofwAfAUwqUmEvxAODE4iWLEF4Y+ZzoLUFB0K7ApCnBIvnPxccdvXzxmx1mv7dcBn9UernRMHiaQVIegOuy7DsfJBPekLWHrN5qEbCkS2kv++o/CF6Ja+Qn9v9nIBdobA0mZcuGpTTa920eQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=AESnoYVnFQFkJMRv4Cfc2nxTPKKOOmjTDt10dgnM/4Y=; b=JC4ElH/hFr+NNsnD/3JbzR4CNcH08cfJg6JJJ2gEPmaUH8gNoXTJhYgA5F2ID/aXIKdeapudmASbaEiVSSlRJIBwNxrveZR98GBldt+x3uKy5LzUuY3gvJyUyVu0ZIOvvpKZuQ6Aftcx8iC+EP339PI157DXn1NZVixreOxZ4t90M7146c6/a047o7Cuf1KDvdUdpOAlr3m4HbqiTG/IPNHfbtvTuyyVqDXhfHBTLB9cJvGtUiq2T5HsvKpfWtFViVVZydoEsilNpFsUCtQw5RKMIg5Kjn99ARbJPdsabj7ggnviphSk2n2XTj5ZzAvPxnpAa5nO3F6TsQOhSkfpsA== Received: from DB5EUR01FT008.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.4.52) by DB5EUR01HT081.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.5.203) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2602.11; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 15:14:54 +0000 Received: from VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.152.4.60) by DB5EUR01FT008.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.4.96) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2602.11 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 15:14:54 +0000 Received: from VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::35f2:9ea2:efd6:1d46]) by VI1P194MB0429.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::35f2:9ea2:efd6:1d46%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2602.012; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 15:14:53 +0000 From: arthur miller Thread-Topic: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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Ok, thx f=F6r the info. I didnt know lyckas implemented. Will take a l= ook at server.el. Skickat fr=E5n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. -------- Originalmeddelande -------- Fr=E5n: Eli Zaretskii Datum: 2020-01-03 15:26 (GMT+01:00) Till: arthur miller Kopia: netjune@outlook.com, michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org =C4mne: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web wor= kers. > From: arthur miller > CC: "38807@debbugs.gnu.org" <38807@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 13:35:49 +0000 > > I mean that emacsclient is sort of rendering thread while Emacs server is= sort of hard working part. No, it isn't. emacsclient just sends a command to Emacs telling it to visit a file and display it in a frame. All the rendering is done by the "server", i.e. Emacs itself. > I have honestly never looked at the code for server/client so I don't kno= w how separation is done. It's easy to see that by reading server.el. --_000_VI1P194MB0429FCDE82DC4F01333039AE96230VI1P194MB0429EURP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Aha. Ok, thx f=F6r the info. I didnt know lyckas implemen= ted. Will take a look at server.el.



Skickat fr=E5n min= Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.



-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Fr=E5n: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Datum: 2020-01-03 15:26 (GMT+01:00)
Till: arthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com>
Kopia: netjune@outlook.com, michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.= org
=C4mne: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like we= b workers.

> From: arthur miller <arthur.miller@live.co= m>
> CC: "38807@debbugs.gnu.org" <38807@debbugs.gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 13:35:49 +0000
>
> I mean that emacsclient is sort of rendering thread while Emacs server= is sort of hard working part.

No, it isn't.  emacsclient just sends a command to Emacs telling it to=
visit a file and display it in a frame.  All the rendering is done by<= br> the "server", i.e. Emacs itself.

> I have honestly never looked at the code for server/client so I don't = know how separation is done.

It's easy to see that by reading server.el.
 --_000_VI1P194MB0429FCDE82DC4F01333039AE96230VI1P194MB0429EURP_-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM1:59=EF=BC=8CEli Zare= tskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > How do you write a useful Lisp application for a thread if you have no > way of displaying any messages=3F Workers are background workers. They don=E2=80=99t display messages direc= tly. They post the error messages to the UI part of the lisp application.= =46or a lisp application such as an email client, it is splitted to two p= arts: the UI part and the worker part. The UI part may has two callbacks(= or event handlers): 1. on=5Fnew=5Femail 2. on=5Ferror If the worker fetches an email successfully, it sends an event to the UI = part and the on=5Fnew=5Femail callback of the UI part will be called. If = the worker fails, it sends an error to the UI part and the on=5Ferror cal= lback will be called. The on=5Ferror callback can display the error messa= ge to user. --5e102078_5d5ce761_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM1:59=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5= =86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

How do you write a useful Lisp application for a thread if you have no
way of displaying any messages?  

Workers are background workers. They don=E2=80=99t displa= y messages directly. They post the error messages to the UI part of the lis= p application.

For a lisp application such as an email client, it is spl= itted to two parts: the UI part and the worker part. The UI part may has tw= o callbacks(or event handlers):
1. on_new_email
2. on_error

If the worker fetches an email successfully, it sends an = event to the UI part and the on_new_email callback of the UI part will be c= alled. If the worker fails, it sends an error to the UI part and the on_err= or callback will be called. The on_error callback can display the error mes= sage to user.


--5e102078_5d5ce761_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM2:02=EF=BC=8CEli Zare= tskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > There are ways of communications (e.g., you can call any Emacs > function), Can threads in modules call Emacs functions=3F If yes, it is powerful. --5e102205_1a54d7bc_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM2:02=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5= =86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
There are ways of comm= unications (e.g., you can call any Emacs
function),  

Can threads in modules call Emacs functions? If yes, it is powerful.


--5e102205_1a54d7bc_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM2:06=EF=BC=8CEli Zare= tskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > How would that help=3F Until 3 is done, the user doesn't see the > display updated. And if you think 3 doesn't touch any Lisp, then > thats not true, just see how many times you find =22Lisp=5FObject=22 in= , > say, xterm.c. > OK. This branch of the discussion is for =40arthur=C2=A0miller. If 3 can=E2=80=99t be done in separate thread, then we can keep them all = as the =E2=80=9CUI thread=22. And let it do as less work as possible by s= plitting some of work to background workers. Then better user responsiven= ess is possible. --5e1026f9_3e5e582b_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM2:06=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5= =86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
How would that help? U= ntil 3 is done, the user doesn't see the
display updated. And if you think 3 doesn't touch any Lisp, then
thats not true, just see how many times you find "Lisp_Object" in= ,
say, xterm.c.

OK. This branch of the discussion is for @arthur miller.

If 3 can=E2=80=99t be done in separate thread, then we can keep them all as= the =E2=80=9CUI thread". And let it do as less work as possible by sp= litting some of work to background workers. Then better user responsiveness= is possible.


--5e1026f9_3e5e582b_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM2:02=EF=BC=8CEli Zare= tskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > There are ways of communications (e.g., you can call any Emacs > function), but if more is needed, we can add that. Some design is > necessary, though, to identify what else is needed and why. > There is discussion related with this.=C2=A0https://emacs-china.org/t/lsp= -mode/11238/36 --5e1028ea_3bd615eb_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM2:02=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5= =86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

There are ways of communications (e.g., you can call any Emacs
function), but if more is needed, we can add that. Some design is
necessary, though, to identify what else is needed and why.


There is discussion related with this. https://emacs-china.org/t/lsp-mode/11238/36

--5e1028ea_3bd615eb_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM9:38=EF=BC=8Carthur m= iller =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > This issue on their github might help you to start in right direction := -): > > > https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/1833 > > I don't if things changed since 2017 though. > > Skickat fr=C3=A5n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. > It is what I want to find. Thank you very much. --5e1029aa_58df53b_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM9:38=EF=BC=8Carthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com>= =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
This issue on their github might help you to start in rig= ht direction :-):


https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/1833

I don't if things changed since 2017 though.

Skickat fr=C3=A5n = min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.
 

It is what I want to find. Thank you very much.

--5e1029aa_58df53b_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Workers don=E2=80=99t have to be in dedicated native threads. It is decid= ed by the lisp machine if they are run in a lisp machine. =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM10:11=EF=BC=8Carthur = miller =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > As a concept, I am not sure a thread is the best solution to implement = for a high level scripting runtime as Emacs lisp. Thread is a relatively = primitive concept and leaves a lot to=C2=A0 applications programmer to de= cide and manage. In concurrent programming a thread is OK-ish concept, bu= t it might not be the best for truly parallel problem solving. > > Creating more threads than there are physical cpus creates overhead tha= t might eat up benefits of parallelism. It=C2=A0 also forces a programmer= to think in terms of machine, scheduling, synchronization etc. It can be= more effective and more lisp-ish to think in terms of tasks and let the = core manage the threads and scheduling on it's own. > > Tasks let us think about the work we wish to perform and not how to per= form it. It lets runtime create number of worker threads and schedule the= m automatically instead of forcing programmers to join, synchronize etc > > As a concept a web worker is just a worker thread introduced as idea in= various single threaded gui toolkits long ago. Java's Swing popularized = worker threads heavily back in days, and I don't remember if M=46C also m= ade a deal of those before Swing or after. > > Anyway, these were just ordinary threads,=C2=A0 doing some work, like p= opulating big lists and similar, nothing special. However back in days th= reads were cheap. Everything run on one CPU, and threaded programming was= mostly what we today call concurrent programming. > > Since Swing and Mfc were big things, we have got multi core CPUs as mai= nstream and threads have got much more expensive to create and communicat= e with. Java threads back at days where super cheap to create. I am not s= ure how expensive are posix threads on different cpus, but I know that wi= n32 threads are quite expensive/slow. =46or a small work it might be more= expensive to process it in separate thread. > > Tasks can be mapped on entire thread or put into a queue for physical t= hreads to pick them up. Thus I think tasks might be more suited for say a= n input queue or render queue and similar. > > If I remember well, certain version of DirectX used to process input in= separate thread, which they abandoned in some later version. However I s= topped to work with dx years ago, before dx10 come out, so I don't know h= ow they do nowadays. > > > Skickat fr=C3=A5n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. > > > > -------- Originalmeddelande -------- > =46r=C3=A5n: HaiJun Zhang > Datum: 2020-01-03 04:36 (GMT+01:00) > Till: Eli Zaretskii > Kopia: 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus=40gmx.de > =C3=84mne: bug=2338807: =5B=46eature request=5D: Support lisp workers l= ike web workers. > > =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:21=EF=BC=8CEli Z= aretskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > > > Then these threads cannot really run Lisp at all, nor even directly > > affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads > > that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data. > > =46or web worker, they have different contexts. The following is from M= DN(https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web=5FWorkers=5FAPI/U= sing=5Fweb=5Fworkers): > > workers run in another global context that is different from the curren= t=C2=A0window. Thus, using the=C2=A0windowshortcut to get the current glo= bal scope (instead of=C2=A0self) within a=C2=A0Worker=C2=A0will return an= error. > The worker context is represented by a=C2=A0DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope=C2= =A0object in the case of dedicated workers (standard workers that are uti= lized by a single script; shared workers use=C2=A0SharedWorkerGlobalScope= ). A dedicated worker is only accessible from the script that first spawn= ed it, whereas shared workers can be accessed from multiple scripts. > --5e1033bb_6f0939f8_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Workers don=E2=80=99t have to be in dedicated native thre= ads. It is decided by the lisp machine if they are run in a lisp machine.

=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 += 0800 PM10:11=EF=BC=8Carthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
As a concept, I am not sure a thread is the best solution= to implement for a high level scripting runtime as Emacs lisp. Thread is a= relatively primitive concept and leaves a lot to  applications progra= mmer to decide and manage. In concurrent programming a thread is OK-ish con= cept, but it might not be the best for truly parallel problem solving.

Creating more threads than there are physical cpus create= s overhead that might eat up benefits of parallelism. It  also forces = a programmer to think in terms of machine, scheduling, synchronization etc.= It can be more effective and more lisp-ish to think in terms of tasks and = let the core manage the threads and scheduling on it's own.

Tasks let us think about the work we wish to perform and = not how to perform it. It lets runtime create number of worker threads and = schedule them automatically instead of forcing programmers to join, synchro= nize etc

As a concept a web worker is just a worker thread introdu= ced as idea in various single threaded gui toolkits long ago. Java's Swing = popularized worker threads heavily back in days, and I don't remember if MF= C also made a deal of those before Swing or after.

Anyway, these were just ordinary threads,  doing som= e work, like populating big lists and similar, nothing special. However bac= k in days threads were cheap. Everything run on one CPU, and threaded progr= amming was mostly what we today call concurrent programming. 

Since Swing and Mfc were big things, we have got multi co= re CPUs as mainstream and threads have got much more expensive to create an= d communicate with. Java threads back at days where super cheap to create. = I am not sure how expensive are posix threads on different cpus, but I know= that win32 threads are quite expensive/slow. For a small work it might be = more expensive to process it in separate thread. 

Tasks can be mapped on entire thread or put into a queue = for physical threads to pick them up. Thus I think tasks might be more suit= ed for say an input queue or render queue and similar. 

If I remember well, certain version of DirectX used to pr= ocess input in separate thread, which they abandoned in some later version.= However I stopped to work with dx years ago, before dx10 come out, so I do= n't know how they do nowadays. 


Skickat fr=C3=A5n = min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.



-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Fr=C3=A5n: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@outlook.com>
Datum: 2020-01-03 04:36 (GMT+01:00)
Till: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Kopia: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de
=C3=84mne: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web= workers.

=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97= =A5 +0800 AM12:21=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

Then these threads cannot really run Lisp at all, nor even directly
affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads
that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data.  
=

For web worker, they have different contexts. The following is from MD= N(https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_= Workers_API/Using_web_workers):

workers= run in another global context that is different from the current window. Thus, using the window= shortcut to get the current global scope (instead of self) within a Worker will return an error.

The wor= ker context is represented by a DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope&= nbsp;object in the case of dedicated workers (standard workers that are uti= lized by a single script; shared workers use SharedWork= erGlobalScope). A dedicated worker is only accessible from the s= cript that first spawned it, whereas shared workers can be accessed from mu= ltiple scripts.


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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I extracted some text from the VSCode extension development guide. Hope y= ou can get an overview first. The extension host: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Extension host is a Node.js process in VS Code responsible for loading an= d running extensions. Although you don't need to worry about the Extensio= n Host when you are writing extensions, it is still useful to know what t= he Extension Host does to your extension. URL: https://code.visualstudio.com/api/advanced-topics/extension-host Extension Manifest: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Every Visual Studio Code extension needs a manifest file package.json at = the root of the extension directory structure. URL: https://code.visualstudio.com/api/references/extension-manifest Contribute Points: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Contribution Points are a set of JSON declarations that you make in the c= ontributes field of the package.json Extension Manifest. Your extension r= egisters Contribution Points to extend various functionalities within Vis= ual Studio Code. Here is a list of all available Contribution Points: configuration configurationDefaults commands menus keybindings languages debuggers breakpoints grammars themes snippets jsonValidation views viewsContainers problemMatchers problemPatterns taskDefinitions colors typescriptServerPlugins resourceLabel=46ormatters URL: https://code.visualstudio.com/api/references/contribution-points Extending Workbench: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =22Workbench=22 refers to the overall Visual Studio Code UI that encompas= ses the following UI components: Title Bar Activity Bar Side Bar Panel Editor Group Status Bar VS Code provides various APIs that allow you to add your own components t= o the Workbench. URL: https://code.visualstudio.com/api/extension-capabilities/extending-w= orkbench =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM11:32=EF=BC=8CEli Zar= etskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 12:02:35 +0800 > > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang > > Cc: dgutov=40yandex.ru, 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org > > > > While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsive= ness. As far as I known, the > > extensions of VSCode runs in separate process. > > Can you even remotely compare the degree of control the VSCode > extension language can have on the UI, with what Emacs gives you=3F --5e1048b0_6385489e_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
I extracted some text from the VSCode extension developme= nt guide. Hope you can get an overview first.


The extension host:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Extension host is a Node.js process in VS Code responsible for loading and = running extensions. Although you don't need to worry about the Extension Ho= st when you are writing extensions, it is still useful to know what the Ext= ension Host does to your extension.

URL: https://code.visualstudio.com/api/advanced-topics/extension-host=


Extension Manifest:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Every Visual Studio Code extension needs a manifest file package.json at th= e root of the extension directory structure.

URL: https://code.visualstudio.com/api/references/extension-manifest

Contribute Points:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Contribution Points are a set of JSON declarations that you make in the con= tributes field of the package.json Extension Manifest. Your extension regis= ters Contribution Points to extend various functionalities within Visual St= udio Code. Here is a list of all available Contribution Points:

configuration
configurationDefaults
commands
menus
keybindings
languages
debuggers
breakpoints
grammars
themes
snippets
jsonValidation
views
viewsContainers
problemMatchers
problemPatterns
taskDefinitions
colors
typescriptServerPlugins
resourceLabelFormatters

URL: https://code.visualstudio.com/api/references/contribution-points=


Extending Workbench:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
"Workbench" refers to the overall Visual Studio Code UI that enco= mpasses the following UI components:

Title Bar
Activity Bar
Side Bar
Panel
Editor Group
Status Bar

VS Code provides various APIs that allow you to add your own components to = the Workbench.

URL: https://code.visualstudio.com/api/extension-capabilities= /extending-workbench

=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM11:32=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 = 12:02:35 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@outlook.com>
Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org

While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsiveness. = As far as I known, the
extensions of VSCode runs in separate process.

Can you even remotely compare the degree of control the VSCode
extension language can have on the UI, with what Emacs gives you?
--5e1048b0_6385489e_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 09:00:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157812839230269 (code B ref 38807); Sat, 04 Jan 2020 09:00:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jan 2020 08:59:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42444 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1infHk-0007s9-3w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 03:59:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51601) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1infHi-0007rw-5h for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 03:59:50 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49639) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1infHc-0001aH-1Q; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 03:59:44 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2441 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1infHb-00038R-E5; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 03:59:43 -0500 Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 10:59:45 +0200 Message-Id: <83k167ha0u.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:19:46 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <878smrtu65.fsf@gmx.de> <83r20hhyhi.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:19:46 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > How do you write a useful Lisp application for a thread if you have no > way of displaying any messages? > > Workers are background workers. They don’t display messages directly. They post the error messages to the > UI part of the lisp application. How would that work? We don't have any such message queues in Emacs, and no machinery to display them, nor for telling the user which job reported the message. And again, some low-level Lisp functions issue messages when they like that, out of the application's control. What do you do with those? > For a lisp application such as an email client, it is splitted to two parts: the UI part and the worker part. The UI > part may has two callbacks(or event handlers): > 1. on_new_email > 2. on_error > > If the worker fetches an email successfully, it sends an event to the UI part and the on_new_email callback of > the UI part will be called. If the worker fails, it sends an error to the UI part and the on_error callback will be > called. The on_error callback can display the error message to user. I'm saying that fetching email doesn't need any Lisp, it can be done in C. And if so, you don't need Lisp-level threads at all. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 09:01:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157812844930461 (code B ref 38807); Sat, 04 Jan 2020 09:01:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jan 2020 09:00:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42448 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1infIf-0007vF-Er for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 04:00:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54228) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1infId-0007v2-Cn for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 04:00:47 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49677) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1infIX-0005pP-Uu; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 04:00:42 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2496 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1infIR-0004cu-8k; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 04:00:40 -0500 Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 11:00:37 +0200 Message-Id: <83imlrh9ze.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:26:24 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfqslafm.fsf@gnu.org> <83r20jjgg3.fsf@gnu.org> <83png1hyb8.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:26:24 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > There are ways of communications (e.g., you can call any Emacs > function), > > Can threads in modules call Emacs functions? Yes. It's in the docs, please read about modules in the ELisp manual. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 09:08:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157812885231035 (code B ref 38807); Sat, 04 Jan 2020 09:08:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jan 2020 09:07:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42452 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1infP7-00084R-5y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 04:07:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42714) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1infP5-00084F-HW for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 04:07:28 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49744) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1infOz-0004C0-Ge; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 04:07:21 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2908 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1infOy-00007i-UH; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 04:07:21 -0500 Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 11:07:22 +0200 Message-Id: <83h81bh9o5.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Sat, 4 Jan 2020 16:11:23 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <48d683e5-e0ec-2cbf-c8db-ad41cfc553e1@yandex.ru> <835zhxn5jg.fsf@gnu.org> <8336czlucz.fsf@gnu.org> <39f1e59e-08db-4862-98db-c31c3bcbab06@Spark> <83y2urjip6.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 16:11:23 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > I extracted some text from the VSCode extension development guide. Hope you can get an overview first. Where does it say how to cause VSCode display an equivalent to an image or an overlay string over some text in a buffer? From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline The UI extension is in =E2=80=9CExtending Workbench=E2=80=9D. Extension examples: 1. add icon buttons on the title menu bar(like toolbar) 2. add icon buttons on the status bar 3. add items to any existing menu or add new context menu 4. add an outline view to show symbol list(like imenu with a list view), = and add a context menu for the symbols in the list 5. add an virtual filesystem view to show files from a ftp server and ope= n files in it 6. call any command in the VSCode and get the result. The command may be = a file chooser dialog. 7. call any command registered by other extensions and get the result 8. register commands for user to use. The command is implemented in the e= xtension with typescript(like javescript). The command can be run by user= with Ctrl-P(like M-x in emacs) or can be called by other extensions(like= in 7). 9. create a webview and show it like an opened file. It can be used to pr= eview markdown. 10. add key bindings 11. create an slot in log panel and output logs to it. 12. display notifications(like the tooltip window in emacs) 13. show progress 14. get opened file list or get the active file =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM11:32=EF=BC=8CEli Zar= etskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 12:02:35 +0800 > > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang > > Cc: dgutov=40yandex.ru, 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org > > > > While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsive= ness. As far as I known, the > > extensions of VSCode runs in separate process. > > Can you even remotely compare the degree of control the VSCode > extension language can have on the UI, with what Emacs gives you=3F --5e10568c_7924ca0a_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
The UI extension is in =E2=80=9CExtending Workbench=E2=80= =9D.

Extension examples:
1. add icon buttons on the title menu bar(like toolbar)
2. add icon buttons on the status bar
3. add items to any existing menu or add new context menu
4. add an outline view to show symbol list(like imenu with a list view= ), and add a context menu for the symbols in the list
5. add an virtual filesystem view to show files from a ftp server and = open files in it
6. call any command in the VSCode and get the result. The command may = be a file chooser dialog.
7. call any command registered by other extensions and get the result<= /div>
8. register commands for user to use. The command is implemented in th= e extension with typescript(like javescript). The command can be run by use= r with Ctrl-P(like M-x in emacs) or can be called by other extensions(like = in 7).
9. create a webview and show it like an opened file. It can be used to= preview markdown.
10. add key bindings
11. create an slot in log panel and output logs to it.
12. display notifications(like the tooltip window in emacs)
13. show progress
14. get opened file list or get the active file


=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM11:32=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 = 12:02:35 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@outlook.com>
Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org

While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsiveness. = As far as I known, the
extensions of VSCode runs in separate process.

Can you even remotely compare the degree of control the VSCode
extension language can have on the UI, with what Emacs gives you?
--5e10568c_7924ca0a_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=884=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM4:59=EF=BC=8CEli Zare= tskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > How would that work=3F We don't have any such message queues in Emacs, > and no machinery to display them, nor for telling the user which job > reported the message. Some APIs need to be added for communication use. The UI part of the emai= l client known what happens and will tell the user. > And again, some low-level Lisp functions issue messages when they like > that, out of the application's control. What do you do with those=3F > The lisp machine need to be modified for running workers. When running wo= rkers, It may save the messages to a log file. > I'm saying that fetching email doesn't need any Lisp, it can be done > in C. And if so, you don=E2=80=99t need Lisp-level threads at all. Many emacs hackers may prefer lisp to C. Writing lisp is faster than C. A= nd compiling C is not an easy =C2=A0thing for many users. --5e105be3_3b2125a3_4379 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=884=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM4:59=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5= =86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
How would that work? W= e don't have any such message queues in Emacs,
and no machinery to display them, nor for telling the user which job
reported the message.

Some APIs need to be added for communication use. The UI = part of the email client known what happens and will tell the user. 
And again, some low-le= vel Lisp functions issue messages when they like
that, out of the application's control. What do you do with those?


The lisp machine need to be modified for running workers.= When running workers, It may save the messages to a log file.

I'm saying that fetchi= ng email doesn't need any Lisp, it can be done
in C. And if so, you don=E2=80=99t need Lisp-level threads at all. 

Many emacs hackers may prefer lisp to C. Writing lisp is faster than C. And= compiling C is not an easy
 thing for many users.

--5e105be3_3b2125a3_4379-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 09:52:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.15781314982584 (code B ref 38807); Sat, 04 Jan 2020 09:52:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jan 2020 09:51:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42495 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ing5q-0000fc-3L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 04:51:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44532) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ing5o-0000fN-69 for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 04:51:36 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:50229) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ing5h-0002ss-BQ; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 04:51:29 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1649 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ing5g-0005rQ-IW; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 04:51:29 -0500 Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 11:51:30 +0200 Message-Id: <83blrjh7ml.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Sat, 4 Jan 2020 17:33:18 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <878smrtu65.fsf@gmx.de> <83r20hhyhi.fsf@gnu.org> <83k167ha0u.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 17:33:18 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > How would that work? We don't have any such message queues in Emacs, > and no machinery to display them, nor for telling the user which job > reported the message. > > Some APIs need to be added for communication use. The UI part of the email client known what happens and > will tell the user. Sorry, such general and vague suggestions aren't useful. You need to propose specific changes that are consistent with how Emacs is designed and implemented. You need to describe those new APIs, and you need to tell how will they be used by the existing code that displays messages in the echo area. It goes without saying that an editor different from Emacs could be designed from scratch to support multi-threading between the UI and the processing engine. The issues at hand are (a) would such an editor be as powerful and flexible as Emacs, in terms of letting the programs written in the extension language control what is being displayed and where; and (b) would it be possible to add such threading to Emacs as it is now without completely redesigning how it processes input events and how it displays messages to the user. So any proposals in that direction must be more concrete and directly related to how Emacs works now, otherwise this will not be a discussion of any practical interest for Emacs development. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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Mon, 6 Jan 2020 05:08:36 +0000 X-Readdle-Message-ID: 15c45e6d-2b21-4c88-962e-0d033ebf6e7e@Spark X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <15c45e6d-2b21-4c88-962e-0d033ebf6e7e@Spark> X-TMN: [pmi7WOKQDp1EBJ4tIWjXV93dyThsZQZk] X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 48 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 75cd23ee-147f-452e-ecff-08d792667d21 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: SG2APC01HT216: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: IuTZxMp++wzxGecMQv0G7Oz5qiIQoDm3etzOi1Iw5WaMF3/chStkmzg4j9DoA+zca3Z6LNSakdzTrN+iUrna4NLKEOxfZhlNzZDAQD5EbL3wvBi79ozHqvswXwZrZ6Yi04f3T8zayHP7veyCVwGkUwLtnhqaNtknttoI7FDuDxyl5IXgE9HvYsCC7c38j4a+ X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 75cd23ee-147f-452e-ecff-08d792667d21 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jan 2020 05:08:38.5565 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SG2APC01HT216 X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --5e12c0d1_153ea438_b145 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=884=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM5:51=EF=BC=8CEli Zare= tskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 17:33:18 +0800 > > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang > > Cc: michael.albinus=40gmx.de, 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org > > > > How would that work=3F We don't have any such message queues in Emacs= , > > and no machinery to display them, nor for telling the user which job > > reported the message. > > > > Some APIs need to be added for communication use. The UI part of the = email client known what happens and > > will tell the user. > > Sorry, such general and vague suggestions aren't useful. You need to > propose specific changes that are consistent with how Emacs is > designed and implemented. You need to describe those new APIs, and > you need to tell how will they be used by the existing code that > displays messages in the echo area. On the UI part, create a worker like this: =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxxx=E2=80=94=E2=80= =94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 fetch=5Fmail=5Fworker =3D new Worker(xxx) fetch=5Fmail=5Fworker.onmessage =3D function (msg) =7B =C2=A0 =C2=A0 // display the new mail =7D; fetch=5Fmail=5Fworker.onerror =3D function (error) =7B =C2=A0 =C2=A0 message(=E2=80=9Cfetch mail error: %s=E2=80=9D, error) =7D; fetch=5Fmail=5Fworker.start() =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxxx=E2=80=94=E2=80= =94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 On the worker part, fetch emails and post messages or error: =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxxx=E2=80=94=E2=80= =94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94- while(true) =7B =C2=A0 =C2=A0 error =3D fetch=5Fnext=5Fmail(&msg) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if error =21=3D nil =7B =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0post=5Ferror(error) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0break =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =7D =C2=A0 =C2=A0 post=5Fmessage(msg) =7D =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxxx=E2=80=94=E2=80= =94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94- > It goes without saying that an editor different from Emacs could be > designed from scratch to support multi-threading between the UI and > the processing engine. The issues at hand are (a) would such an > editor be as powerful and flexible as Emacs, in terms of letting the > programs written in the extension language control what is being > displayed and where; and (b) would it be possible to add such > threading to Emacs as it is now without completely redesigning how it > processes input events and how it displays messages to the user. > > So any proposals in that direction must be more concrete and directly > related to how Emacs works now, otherwise this will not be a > discussion of any practical interest for Emacs development. I don=E2=80=99t known if the above code is=C2=A0concrete. --5e12c0d1_153ea438_b145 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=884=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM5:51=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5= =86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 = 17:33:18 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@outlook.com>
Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org

How would that work? We don't have any such message queues in Emacs,
and no machinery to display them, nor for telling the user which job
reported the message.

Some APIs need to be added for communication use. The UI part of the email = client known what happens and
will tell the user.

Sorry, such general and vague suggestions aren't useful. You need to
propose specific changes that are consistent with how Emacs is
designed and implemented. You need to describe those new APIs, and
you need to tell how will they be used by the existing code that
displays messages in the echo area.

On the UI part, create a worker like this:
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxx= x=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94
fetch_mail_worker =3D new Worker(xxx)

fetch_mail_worker.onmessage =3D function (msg) {
    // display the new mail
};

fetch_mail_worker.onerror =3D function (error) {
    message(=E2=80=9Cfetch mail error: %s=E2=80= =9D, error)
};

fetch_mail_worker.start()
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxx= x=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

On the worker part, fetch emails and post messages or err= or:
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxx= x=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94-
while(true) {
    error =3D fetch_next_mail(&msg)
    if error !=3D nil {
       post_error(error)
       break
    }

    post_message(msg)
}
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxx= x=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94-

It goes without saying= that an editor different from Emacs could be
designed from scratch to support multi-threading between the UI and
the processing engine. The issues at hand are (a) would such an
editor be as powerful and flexible as Emacs, in terms of letting the
programs written in the extension language control what is being
displayed and where; and (b) would it be possible to add such
threading to Emacs as it is now without completely redesigning how it
processes input events and how it displays messages to the user.

So any proposals in that direction must be more concrete and directly
related to how Emacs works now, otherwise this will not be a
discussion of any practical interest for Emacs development. 

I don=E2=80=99t known if the above code is concrete.

--5e12c0d1_153ea438_b145-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 16:08:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.157832683126560 (code B ref 38807); Mon, 06 Jan 2020 16:08:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jan 2020 16:07:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46550 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ioUuM-0006uK-Nz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Jan 2020 11:07:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47972) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ioUuL-0006u5-Cm for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Jan 2020 11:07:09 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:57084) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ioUuF-00084z-Uw; Mon, 06 Jan 2020 11:07:03 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1575 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ioUuF-0007h2-48; Mon, 06 Jan 2020 11:07:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 18:07:12 +0200 Message-Id: <83tv58efgv.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Mon, 6 Jan 2020 13:08:28 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <878smrtu65.fsf@gmx.de> <83r20hhyhi.fsf@gnu.org> <83k167ha0u.fsf@gnu.org> <83blrjh7ml.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 13:08:28 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > Sorry, such general and vague suggestions aren't useful. You need to > propose specific changes that are consistent with how Emacs is > designed and implemented. You need to describe those new APIs, and > you need to tell how will they be used by the existing code that > displays messages in the echo area. > > On the UI part, create a worker like this: > ——————xxxx—————— > fetch_mail_worker = new Worker(xxx) > > fetch_mail_worker.onmessage = function (msg) { > // display the new mail > }; > > fetch_mail_worker.onerror = function (error) { > message(“fetch mail error: %s”, error) > }; > > fetch_mail_worker.start() > ——————xxxx——————— > > On the worker part, fetch emails and post messages or error: > ——————xxxx———————- > while(true) { > error = fetch_next_mail(&msg) > if error != nil { > post_error(error) > break > } > > post_message(msg) > } > ——————xxxx———————- This is very abstract. I hoped you could describe this in terms of relevant Emacs APIs and features. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: HaiJun Zhang Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 02:26:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.158475750414493 (code B ref 38807); Sat, 21 Mar 2020 02:26:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Mar 2020 02:25:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45859 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jFTor-0003lG-1r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 22:25:04 -0400 Received: from mail-oln040092255063.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.255.63]:22112 helo=APC01-HK2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jFTon-0003l2-Bq for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 22:24:58 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=884=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM5:00=EF=BC=8CEli Zare= tskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:26:24 +0800 > > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang > > Cc: michael.albinus=40gmx.de, 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org > > > > There are ways of communications (e.g., you can call any Emacs > > function), > > > > Can threads in modules call Emacs functions=3F > > Yes. It=E2=80=99s in the docs, please read about modules in the ELisp m= anual. I known module code can call emacs functions. But is it true for threads = in module=3F See this:=C2=A0https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode/issues/676=23issueco= mment-476700911 > That means if a native-code thread is to be run in parallel with the UI= thread, it can never access an=C2=A0Env. --5e757aed_79838cb2_6dce Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=884=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM5:00=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5= =86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 = 13:26:24 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@outlook.com>
Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org

There are ways of communications (e.g., you can call any Emacs
function),

Can threads in modules call Emacs functions?

Yes. It=E2=80=99s in the docs, please read about modules in the ELisp manua= l. 

I known module code can call emacs functions. But is it t= rue for threads in module?

See this: https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode/issues/676#iss= uecomment-476700911

> That means if a native-code thread is to be run = in parallel with the UI thread, it can never access an Env. 

--5e757aed_79838cb2_6dce-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:17:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.158477860017744 (code B ref 38807); Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:17:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Mar 2020 08:16:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45898 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jFZJ7-0004c3-1i for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 04:16:40 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56259) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jFZJ5-0004bo-5i for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 04:16:35 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:42238) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jFZIz-0005Tk-8D; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 04:16:29 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4179 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jFZIy-0004Fx-Qi; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 04:16:29 -0400 Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:16:28 +0200 Message-Id: <83d096dswz.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:24:37 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfqslafm.fsf@gnu.org> <83r20jjgg3.fsf@gnu.org> <83png1hyb8.fsf@gnu.org> <83imlrh9ze.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:24:37 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > I known module code can call emacs functions. But is it true for threads in module? Since the Lisp interpreter is non-reentrant, this is not possible. > See this: https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode/issues/676#issuecomment-476700911 > > That means if a native-code thread is to be run in parallel with the UI thread, it can never access an Env. Yes, but so what? You can still do work in the module threads, then send the accumulated results to emacs from the main thread. Again, this is all too abstract. A useful discussion would have many more details regarding the job that needs to be done and the bottle-necks that need to be distributed to threads running in parallel. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8821=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM4:16=EF=BC=8CEli Zar= etskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > Yes, but so what=3F You can still do work in the module threads, then > send the accumulated results to emacs from the main thread. > Many users complain the lag of lsp-mode(lsp client for emacs). I=E2=80=99= m also suffering from it, while the lsp works much better in vim and VSCo= de. There are too many json messages in communication between emacs(lsp clien= t) and lsp server. In that discussion, =C2=A0some people want to parse the json messages in = a module thread and prepare lisp data for emacs to use. But it is not pos= sible because of the limit. If json messages are parsed in module thread and saved as c struct data(n= ot lisp data), they have to be translated to lisp data before emacs use. = The translation which should be done in emacs thread cost too much cpu, w= hich make the parallel parsing of json messages not very useful. Is it possible to parse json messages and prepare data struct for pdumper= , and translate the data to lisp using pdumper=3F What about the performa= nse comparing with the above=3F --5e76bb7d_6a5ee64_6dce Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8821=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM4:16=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5= =86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

Yes, but so what? You can still do work in the module threads, then
send the accumulated results to emacs from the main thread.


Many users complain the lag of lsp-mode(lsp client for em= acs). I=E2=80=99m also suffering from it, while the lsp works much better i= n vim and VSCode.
There are too many json messages in communication between= emacs(lsp client) and lsp server. 

In that discussion,  some people want to par= se the json messages in a module thread and prepare lisp data for emacs to = use. But it is not possible because of the limit.

If json messages are parsed in module thread and saved as= c struct data(not lisp data), they have to be translated to lisp data befo= re emacs use. The translation which should be done in emacs thread cost too= much cpu, which make the parallel parsing of json messages not very useful= .

Is it possible to parse json messages and prepare data st= ruct for pdumper, and translate the data to lisp using pdumper? What about = the performanse comparing with the above?

--5e76bb7d_6a5ee64_6dce-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 14:33:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.15848875282138 (code B ref 38807); Sun, 22 Mar 2020 14:33:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Mar 2020 14:32:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50816 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jG1e4-0000YP-0C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 10:32:08 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:45089) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jG1e2-0000Xs-3u for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 10:32:06 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:34461) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jG1dw-0003KG-Ag; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 10:32:00 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4582 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jG1dv-0005Ef-4Y; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 10:32:00 -0400 Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 16:32:01 +0200 Message-Id: <83lfnscvfi.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Sun, 22 Mar 2020 09:12:23 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfqslafm.fsf@gnu.org> <83r20jjgg3.fsf@gnu.org> <83png1hyb8.fsf@gnu.org> <83imlrh9ze.fsf@gnu.org> <83d096dswz.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 09:12:23 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > > Yes, but so what? You can still do work in the module threads, then > send the accumulated results to emacs from the main thread. > > Many users complain the lag of lsp-mode(lsp client for emacs). I’m also suffering from it, while the lsp works > much better in vim and VSCode. > There are too many json messages in communication between emacs(lsp client) and lsp server. > > In that discussion, some people want to parse the json messages in a module thread and prepare lisp data > for emacs to use. But it is not possible because of the limit. Suppose a module thread will be able to parse JSON: what would the main (a.k.a. "Lisp") thread of Emacs do while the module thread is working? Doesn't it need to wait for the parsed data anyhow? > If json messages are parsed in module thread and saved as c struct data(not lisp data), they have to be > translated to lisp data before emacs use. The translation which should be done in emacs thread cost too > much cpu, which make the parallel parsing of json messages not very useful. You are saying that the translation is costly, but did someone actually measure that and verify that it's indeed costly? And if someone did, where can I see the results in sufficient level of detail to understand what part(s) of parsing JSON are the bottleneck? > Is it possible to parse json messages and prepare data struct for pdumper, and translate the data to lisp > using pdumper? What about the performanse comparing with the above? I don't think I understand what does pdumper have to do with this issue. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: HaiJun Zhang Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 04:24:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de, yyoncho@gmail.com Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.15850238016382 (code B ref 38807); Tue, 24 Mar 2020 04:24:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Mar 2020 04:23:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53775 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jGb61-0001es-7b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 00:23:21 -0400 Received: from mail-oln040092254104.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.254.104]:41952 helo=APC01-PU1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jGb5y-0001eb-H8 for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8822=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM10:32=EF=BC=8CEli Za= retskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > Suppose a module thread will be able to parse JSON: what would the > main (a.k.a. =22Lisp=22) thread of Emacs do while the module thread is > working=3F Doesn=E2=80=99t it need to wait for the parsed data anyhow=3F= > They don=E2=80=99t known each other. It will be good if module thread can= post message to lisp thread. It will be better if module thread can send= lisp data within the message to lisp thread. > > > If json messages are parsed in module thread and saved as c struct da= ta(not lisp data), they have to be > > translated to lisp data before emacs use. The translation which shoul= d be done in emacs thread cost too > > much cpu, which make the parallel parsing of json messages not very u= seful. > > You are saying that the translation is costly, but did someone > actually measure that and verify that it's indeed costly=3F And if > someone did, where can I see the results in sufficient level of detail > to understand what part(s) of parsing JSON are the bottleneck=3F > I have talked with the author of lsp-mode. I think their team have done s= ome work on this. =40yyoncho=C2=A0Can you join the discussion=3F > > Is it possible to parse json messages and prepare data struct for pdu= mper, and translate the data to lisp > > using pdumper=3F What about the performanse comparing with the above=3F= > > I don't think I understand what does pdumper have to do with this > issue. My understanding is that pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp data.= Maybe we can prepare data with its format and let it deserialize them. --5e798b26_3fc32e20_6dce Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8822=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM10:32=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

Suppose a module thread will be able to parse JSON: what would the
main (a.k.a. "Lisp") thread of Emacs do while the module thread i= s
working? Doesn=E2=80=99t it need to wait for the parsed data anyhow?


They don=E2=80=99t known each other. It will be good if m= odule thread can post message to lisp thread. It will be better if module t= hread can send lisp data within the message to lisp thread. 



If json messages are p= arsed in module thread and saved as c struct data(not lisp data), they have= to be
translated to lisp data before emacs use. The translation which should be d= one in emacs thread cost too
much cpu, which make the parallel parsing of json messages not very useful.=

You are saying that the translation is costly, but did someone
actually measure that and verify that it's indeed costly? And if
someone did, where can I see the results in sufficient level of detail
to understand what part(s) of parsing JSON are the bottleneck?


I have talked with the author of lsp-mode. I think their = team have done some work on this.

@yyoncho Can you join the= discussion?



Is it possible to pars= e json messages and prepare data struct for pdumper, and translate the data= to lisp
using pdumper? What about the performanse comparing with the above?

I don't think I understand what does pdumper have to do with this
issue. 

My understanding is that pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp da= ta. Maybe we can prepare data with its format and let it deserialize them.<= /div>

--5e798b26_3fc32e20_6dce-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 14:41:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de, yyoncho@gmail.com Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.158506080722272 (code B ref 38807); Tue, 24 Mar 2020 14:41:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Mar 2020 14:40:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55421 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jGkis-0005nA-LX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 10:40:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44315) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jGkir-0005mW-Q8 for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 10:40:06 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:48181) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jGkim-0006n3-7t; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 10:40:00 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1787 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jGkil-0005bL-NV; Tue, 24 Mar 2020 10:40:00 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 16:40:07 +0200 Message-Id: <831rphbyuw.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Tue, 24 Mar 2020 12:22:57 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfqslafm.fsf@gnu.org> <83r20jjgg3.fsf@gnu.org> <83png1hyb8.fsf@gnu.org> <83imlrh9ze.fsf@gnu.org> <83d096dswz.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfnscvfi.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 12:22:57 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, yyoncho@gmail.com > > Suppose a module thread will be able to parse JSON: what would the > main (a.k.a. "Lisp") thread of Emacs do while the module thread is > working? Doesn’t it need to wait for the parsed data anyhow? > > They don’t known each other. I'm not sure I understand the response. Let me repeat the question: while the module thread parses JSON, will the main thread wait for it, or will it do something else? Can you describe how this would work using some use case where lsp-mode is used, like for completing on program symbols? > It will be good if module thread can post message to lisp thread. It will be > better if module thread can send lisp data within the message to lisp thread. Posting messages is possible by writing to a pipe. But I don't think I understand what you mean by "send Lisp data" -- how (in what form) can Lisp data be sent? > I don't think I understand what does pdumper have to do with this > issue. > > My understanding is that pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp data. Maybe we can prepare data with its > format and let it deserialize them. But we already do that: the libjansson library "serializes" the data, and we then deserialize it in Emacs as we get the data from the library. That deserialization is what takes the time you are trying to make shorter. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Ivan Yonchovski Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:45:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.158515469429294 (code B ref 38807); Wed, 25 Mar 2020 16:45:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Mar 2020 16:44:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57669 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jH99C-0007cQ-GZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:44:54 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-f175.google.com ([209.85.208.175]:40039) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jH99B-0007cE-7X for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 12:44:54 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-f175.google.com with SMTP id 19so3197187ljj.7 for <38807@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 09:44:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=17plhFQIaQEvuumIaqDW8e3DFRKc6YmBcKgOI8zdA6Q=; b=u6Nzb5hjd86XQffC5Ulac9c9Huz33F0ihfmMpbuOsU4wl+2GD/y4ks1CZ5G0hBX9Xt j1qNTog+1HT+5AvUN7qf/JUvvPlz9egNyaRwGKJ320ckJnJMeIZpGUmjMgwLFCcWZ7Rq zw178bZyxWYWNFLzjuodnAXTYtfVKkxo8Pn+DGiwJ5B9XUgvk8JYqsx7qO9WvXA2rLlV rZOEGkH4s0qnwCYBJcGr6/s+m4HQykurxhddXX5+2a8JGjFzFSVizDkMBsuKGlXnZQbp h/4Gq/IKgzw2F3niZb87E8bBCpIB20iImextBY+ue9oivIIDYYQpmeS7weGrgJcyTPSU 8tsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject :in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=17plhFQIaQEvuumIaqDW8e3DFRKc6YmBcKgOI8zdA6Q=; b=kEKYbx4zzsTnQb6WrH5JzUBLdiHMzaNNxvX+/UiG6oS2UlGNIZ+4tFA3Qt90dir+5P 9NllqNEq+6Pn9/gzK20TqIrPzUN7waZ2OGGDBSi5PCjFLzaj/bcv6lvEJrbfF+E6zO/w A6HX6eS5ZGbq1m9dNvyEQXL91T/WsGQLpLXVYjBQ/1eFEPkfJXTepz0aS00yOVK4yvC4 TvKy2ZSMthVynhP0dbwXE5aSnWt94qW1o6J5+OkekIXN56HPV2VKJaVmNMel1lefjldq dLdqDis6RedwI9RoYqKN1CMYMvnSYisHLt4MzZ1t0d0kPSUn9A/ROm1nXnsU8tmeh6Br qymA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZADqESL9FTK4v1JPGoKTW7PA5o4fjqP+zXUEeB2L3vKitpoOkW s6Q+AXz1x+qudTxuxEZP+6ocys1s X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vtxj6WvKsAWFd4ICZNemSYDO6mp7n4HCx/wAJ8rtgm8bkP2kWgwG/u5pKq7UF6N29n/I+Zp8g== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:978d:: with SMTP id y13mr2476878lji.293.1585154686675; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 09:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kyoncho-H87-D3H ([2a00:4802:28d:1200:f55d:a928:6b5c:8e30]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v9sm12266709ljv.82.2020.03.25.09.44.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 25 Mar 2020 09:44:45 -0700 (PDT) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfqslafm.fsf@gnu.org> <83r20jjgg3.fsf@gnu.org> <83png1hyb8.fsf@gnu.org> <83imlrh9ze.fsf@gnu.org> <83d096dswz.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfnscvfi.fsf@gnu.org> User-agent: mu4e 1.3.7; emacs 27.0.60 From: Ivan Yonchovski In-reply-to: Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:44:44 +0200 Message-ID: <87ftdwmlj7.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) HaiJun Zhang writes: >> > If json messages are parsed in module thread and saved as c struct data(not lisp data), they have to be >> > translated to lisp data before emacs use. The translation which should be done in emacs thread cost too >> > much cpu, which make the parallel parsing of json messages not very useful. >> >> You are saying that the translation is costly, but did someone >> actually measure that and verify that it's indeed costly? And if >> someone did, where can I see the results in sufficient level of detail >> to understand what part(s) of parsing JSON are the bottleneck? >> > > I have talked with the author of lsp-mode. I think their team have done some work on this. > @yyoncho Can you join the discussion? IIRC the bottleneck was the utf conversions (there was similar issue in native json parsing as well). I havent tested the dynamic module parser after the latest optimizations. Back then I tested also with the conversion code disabled and it still was relatively slow compared to the native json parsing even before the native joson parsing fixes. HaiJun Zhang, it will be good if you can report the performance issues you have with lsp-mode. You may follow the guide in the https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode#performance . Thanks, Ivan From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:06:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Ivan Yonchovski Cc: netjune@outlook.com, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.158515592831437 (code B ref 38807); Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:06:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Mar 2020 17:05:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57675 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jH9T6-0008Az-72 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 13:05:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41941) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jH9T4-0008Ak-Ib for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 13:05:27 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:44172) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jH9Sz-0006nD-5H; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 13:05:21 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3460 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jH9Sx-0000KN-Op; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 13:05:20 -0400 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 19:05:17 +0200 Message-Id: <83h7yc9xgy.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <87ftdwmlj7.fsf@gmail.com> (message from Ivan Yonchovski on Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:44:44 +0200) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfqslafm.fsf@gnu.org> <83r20jjgg3.fsf@gnu.org> <83png1hyb8.fsf@gnu.org> <83imlrh9ze.fsf@gnu.org> <83d096dswz.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfnscvfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87ftdwmlj7.fsf@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > From: Ivan Yonchovski > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:44:44 +0200 > > IIRC the bottleneck was the utf conversions That should be all but gone now, then. Right? From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Ivan Yonchovski Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:23:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: netjune@outlook.com, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.1585156930747 (code B ref 38807); Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:23:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Mar 2020 17:22:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57695 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jH9jG-0000Bz-7P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 13:22:10 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-f169.google.com ([209.85.208.169]:37105) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jH9jD-0000Bj-Tj for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 13:22:08 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-f169.google.com with SMTP id r24so3376911ljd.4 for <38807@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:22:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=al4IheA9g44nk5tmJXFiksx/epoxpg/ZJ34kA0jCVB0=; b=pFJqe5BUzfQj+sXXWNw6nXMWeLG7RCWTneJiwHGzmHsmUqq/TR2kFJvkviSjWvBUBT jDrxqNPdeudhJ2Z8pB8ak0Ffh4XBbJlzdgqMJcBzgrbvdgpeEaQEhDN6LqudGmF7zz67 qdzY0k9W8d9YyU7tlW/aJNH2yZMLuqEmCPqohQL8vygvx7AD/uWgSynJSuxWSexKfAj0 pzxTwT0x3aaz4cftVsK2ialWmcQoCVVqkSCAKvgT5g5ZWneoD4oa0FijOdP+f0yxXNOR rQ1fkKeQ4EsY91EC5FF0ZJy2uz+/Nt0lQRCdwJ0dUyRG/XHFnPlNNZ83Ibsu3QMf5gYb V0tA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject :in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=al4IheA9g44nk5tmJXFiksx/epoxpg/ZJ34kA0jCVB0=; b=td10JZMm5mSXEXqb70at+/jTdZV4CowTLZvrI5VtKWRKwvoYUC8C+9dKnaQ/F+7+ZQ lZ8/vAt2L5IOTp4g+z/0KRsXN6ABnVQSTkAQ0JL3nZHG9PhKQS2kBLeQbLndMEBOHyn3 oDw8t6kg5G/6vD+1axIv6gEKsVIQ3trfYvgKWHIY1DZ8YGSOxz8fRrtduBAXufZuuvtJ 4lj6JK/Rz1q4PNBKnhj5tZ6ykNXmbJ2JAo/bNObwF2ocdgzErlLJMdJXw8BYQYMHAat6 coZUxc0ZgSSwAapU5vz2Hok9KNBeDnu7UvhQISwXTmmbgBA8LJivRc/6XW65vukZh/4m 6KcA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZ38qSQdL0Fw7mTZzZovyyV3y5BWT7k/oxwOyQvEbNayoxGd6Va /zcg9V3xWtigf9rTAMErytnYwJzEXtA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIMhRSyT/PDKlKIjbFzqEWrTeF2V5nYD7D8akH0s1KeKHxJ/ZfRCNrHi85xrg2pLwagUYjE4Q== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8652:: with SMTP id i18mr2673772ljj.265.1585156921589; Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kyoncho-H87-D3H ([2a00:4802:28d:1200:f55d:a928:6b5c:8e30]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b198sm5843666lfg.11.2020.03.25.10.22.00 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:22:00 -0700 (PDT) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfqslafm.fsf@gnu.org> <83r20jjgg3.fsf@gnu.org> <83png1hyb8.fsf@gnu.org> <83imlrh9ze.fsf@gnu.org> <83d096dswz.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfnscvfi.fsf@gnu.org> <87ftdwmlj7.fsf@gmail.com> <83h7yc9xgy.fsf@gnu.org> User-agent: mu4e 1.3.7; emacs 27.0.60 From: Ivan Yonchovski In-reply-to: <83h7yc9xgy.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 19:21:59 +0200 Message-ID: <87d090mjt4.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Ivan Yonchovski >> Cc: Eli Zaretskii , michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:44:44 +0200 >> >> IIRC the bottleneck was the utf conversions > > That should be all but gone now, then. Right? Probably yes. I haven't tested it since ATM json parsing is fast enough or at least we haven't received a bug report about performance. Also, the dynamic module solution will be slower since it will perform more work than the native json so there is no point to invest effort into that. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM10:40=EF=BC=8CEli Za= retskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > I'm not sure I understand the response. Let me repeat the question: > while the module thread parses JSON, will the main thread wait for it, > or will it do something else=3F Can you describe how this would work > using some use case where lsp-mode is used, like for completing on > program symbols=3F > 1. After user inputs a char, lsp-mode call the module api to setup a comp= letion task. The task has a task id. The lsp-mode saves the task id as th= e current task and bind a callback function to it. It then returns. 2. The module create a task and adds it to its task queue. 3. The worker thread in the module fetches the task from task queue and e= xecutes it. It builds the json-rpc request and sends it to the lsp server= . And then it waits for the reply from the lsp server. 4. The worker receives the reply from lsp server. It parses the json mess= age and builds the completion result to a list(in lisp). 5. The worker thread posts a message to emacs. The message includes the t= ask id and the completion result. 6. Emacs receives the message and dispatches it to lsp-mode (by calling a= function in lsp-mode). The function checks that it is the result of the=C2= =A0completion=C2=A0ask and call the task callback function which will pop= ups a menu to display the completion items. > > It will be good if module thread can post message to lisp thread. It = will be > > better if module thread can send lisp data within the message to lisp= thread. > > Posting messages is possible by writing to a pipe. But I don't think > I understand what you mean by =22send Lisp data=22 -- how (in what form= ) > can Lisp data be sent=3F > It =C2=A0can be the above completion list, a point to a lisp object which= can be passed to emacs to for lsp-mode to use. > > I don't think I understand what does pdumper have to do with this > > issue. > > > > My understanding is that pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp d= ata. Maybe we can prepare data with its > > format and let it deserialize them. > > But we already do that: the libjansson library =22serializes=22 the dat= a, > and we then deserialize it in Emacs as we get the data from the > library. That deserialization is what takes the time you are trying > to make shorter. Before lsp-mode, I used completion tools like irony-mode for c/c++ and go= code for golang. They work very smoothly. Now I have used lsp-mode with emacs-27 or emacs master for several weeks.= It doesn=E2=80=99t work as smoothly as the above tools. It lags. I added some debug messages to lsp-mode and see that there are too many(a= bout 10=7E30) json messages arrived after I input every char. Emacs has t= o parse and process all of them on every key pressing. =46or the old completion tools, there are only one or two json messages a= rrived on every key pressing. Maybe it is the problem of the lsp server. But it is hard to modify them.= --5e7cb02e_550b8808_6dce Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8824=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM10:40=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

I'm not sure I understand the response. Let me repeat the question:
while the module thread parses JSON, will the main thread wait for it,
or will it do something else? Can you describe how this would work
using some use case where lsp-mode is used, like for completing on
program symbols?


  1. After user inputs a char, lsp-mode call the module api t= o setup a completion task. The task has a task id. The lsp-mode saves the t= ask id as the current task and bind a callback function to it. It then retu= rns.
  2. The module create a task and adds it to its task queue.
  3. The worker thread in the module fetches the task from task queue and ex= ecutes it. It builds the json-rpc request and sends it to the lsp server. A= nd then it waits for the reply from the lsp server.
  4. The worker receives the reply from lsp server. It parses the json messa= ge and builds the completion result to a list(in lisp).
  5. The worker thread posts a message to emacs. The message includes the ta= sk id and the completion result.
  6. Emacs receives the message and dispatches it to lsp-mode (by calling a = function in lsp-mode). The function checks that it is the result of the&nbs= p;completion ask = and call the task callback function which will popups a menu to display the= completion items.

It will be good if mod= ule thread can post message to lisp thread. It will be
better if module thread can send lisp data within the message to lisp threa= d.

Posting messages is possible by writing to a pipe. But I don't think
I understand what you mean by "send Lisp data" -- how (in what fo= rm)
can Lisp data be sent?


It  can be the above completion list, a point to a l= isp object which can be passed to emacs to for lsp-mode to use. 

I don't think I unders= tand what does pdumper have to do with this
issue.

My understanding is that pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp data. M= aybe we can prepare data with its
format and let it deserialize them.

But we already do that: the libjansson library "serializes" the d= ata,
and we then deserialize it in Emacs as we get the data from the
library. That deserialization is what takes the time you are trying
to make shorter. 

Before lsp-mode, I used completion tools like irony-mode for c/c+&= #43; and gocode for golang. They work very smoothly.

Now I have used lsp-mode with emacs-27 or emacs master fo= r several weeks. It doesn=E2=80=99t work as smoothly as the above tools. It= lags.

I added some debug messages to lsp-mode and see that ther= e are too many(about 10~30) json messages arrived after I input every char.= Emacs has to parse and process all of them on every key pressing.

For the old completion tools, there are only one or two j= son messages arrived on every key pressing.

Maybe it is the problem of the lsp server. But it is hard= to modify them.

--5e7cb02e_550b8808_6dce-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:44=EF=BC=8CIvan Y= onchovski =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > HaiJun Zhang writes: > > > > > If json messages are parsed in module thread and saved as c struc= t data(not lisp data), they have to be > > > > translated to lisp data before emacs use. The translation which s= hould be done in emacs thread cost too > > > > much cpu, which make the parallel parsing of json messages not ve= ry useful. > > > > > > You are saying that the translation is costly, but did someone > > > actually measure that and verify that it's indeed costly=3F And if > > > someone did, where can I see the results in sufficient level of det= ail > > > to understand what part(s) of parsing JSON are the bottleneck=3F > > > > > > > I have talked with the author of lsp-mode. I think their team have do= ne some work on this. > > =40yyoncho Can you join the discussion=3F > > IIRC the bottleneck was the utf conversions (there was similar issue in= > native json parsing as well). I havent tested the dynamic module parser= > after the latest optimizations. Back then I tested also with the > conversion code disabled and it still was relatively slow compared to > the native json parsing even before the native joson parsing fixes. > > HaiJun Zhang, it will be good if you can report the performance issues > you have with lsp-mode. You may follow the guide in the > https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode=23performance . > > > Thanks, > Ivan OK. I will do it when I have time. --5e7cb2d9_34dfbc00_6dce Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8826=E6=97= =A5 +0800 AM12:44=EF=BC=8CIvan Yonchovski <yyoncho@gmail.com>=EF= =BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

HaiJun Zhang writes:

If json messages are p= arsed in module thread and saved as c struct data(not lisp data), they have= to be
translated to lisp data before emacs use. The translation which should be d= one in emacs thread cost too
much cpu, which make the parallel parsing of json messages not very useful.=

You are saying that the translation is costly, but did someone
actually measure that and verify that it's indeed costly? And if
someone did, where can I see the results in sufficient level of detail
to understand what part(s) of parsing JSON are the bottleneck?


I have talked with the author of lsp-mode. I think their team have done som= e work on this.
@yyoncho Can you join the discussion?

IIRC the bottleneck was the utf conversions (there was similar issue in
native json parsing as well). I havent tested the dynamic module parser
after the latest optimizations. Back then I tested also with the
conversion code disabled and it still was relatively slow compared to
the native json parsing even before the native joson parsing fixes.

HaiJun Zhang, it will be good if you can report the performance issues
you have with lsp-mode. You may follow the guide in the
https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode#performance .


Thanks,
Ivan 


OK. I will do it when I have time.

--5e7cb2d9_34dfbc00_6dce-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 14:45:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de, yyoncho@gmail.com Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.158523390122583 (code B ref 38807); Thu, 26 Mar 2020 14:45:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Mar 2020 14:45:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59484 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jHTki-0005sB-UR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 10:45:01 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59204) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jHTkg-0005ru-Nj for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 10:44:59 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:35829) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jHTkb-0002Vq-57; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 10:44:53 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2789 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jHTka-0006Jx-HV; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 10:44:52 -0400 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:44:50 +0200 Message-Id: <837dz79nvh.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: (message from HaiJun Zhang on Thu, 26 Mar 2020 21:37:39 +0800) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfqslafm.fsf@gnu.org> <83r20jjgg3.fsf@gnu.org> <83png1hyb8.fsf@gnu.org> <83imlrh9ze.fsf@gnu.org> <83d096dswz.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfnscvfi.fsf@gnu.org> <831rphbyuw.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 21:37:39 +0800 > From: HaiJun Zhang > Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, yyoncho@gmail.com > > I'm not sure I understand the response. Let me repeat the question: > while the module thread parses JSON, will the main thread wait for it, > or will it do something else? Can you describe how this would work > using some use case where lsp-mode is used, like for completing on > program symbols? > > 1 After user inputs a char, lsp-mode call the module api to setup a completion task. The task has a task id. > The lsp-mode saves the task id as the current task and bind a callback function to it. It then returns. > 2 The module create a task and adds it to its task queue. > 3 The worker thread in the module fetches the task from task queue and executes it. It builds the json-rpc > request and sends it to the lsp server. And then it waits for the reply from the lsp server. > 4 The worker receives the reply from lsp server. It parses the json message and builds the completion > result to a list(in lisp). > 5 The worker thread posts a message to emacs. The message includes the task id and the completion > result. > 6 Emacs receives the message and dispatches it to lsp-mode (by calling a function in lsp-mode). The > function checks that it is the result of the completion ask and call the task callback function which will > popups a menu to display the completion items. If the above describes what happens when the user requests completion, then I deduce that the user waits for the entire process you described to finish, because the user cannot continue without seeing the completion candidates, and those are only available after item 6 above is done. Since the user waits for this job to finish anyway, why does it help to run some of this processing in a separate thread? > It will be good if module thread can post message to lisp thread. It will be > better if module thread can send lisp data within the message to lisp thread. > > Posting messages is possible by writing to a pipe. But I don't think > I understand what you mean by "send Lisp data" -- how (in what form) > can Lisp data be sent? > > It can be the above completion list, a point to a lisp object which can be passed to emacs to for lsp-mode to > use. A Lisp object that is not stored in the data structures maintained by alloc.c is not really a Lisp object that has a meaning for Emacs, I think. > My understanding is that pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp data. Maybe we can prepare > data with its > format and let it deserialize them. > > But we already do that: the libjansson library "serializes" the data, > and we then deserialize it in Emacs as we get the data from the > library. That deserialization is what takes the time you are trying > to make shorter. > > Before lsp-mode, I used completion tools like irony-mode for c/c++ and gocode for golang. They work very > smoothly. > > Now I have used lsp-mode with emacs-27 or emacs master for several weeks. It doesn’t work as smoothly > as the above tools. It lags. > > I added some debug messages to lsp-mode and see that there are too many(about 10~30) json messages > arrived after I input every char. Emacs has to parse and process all of them on every key pressing. > > For the old completion tools, there are only one or two json messages arrived on every key pressing. > > Maybe it is the problem of the lsp server. But it is hard to modify them. I don't think I understand how this is related to the serialization issue and the pdumper. From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Ivan Yonchovski Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:16:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: HaiJun Zhang , 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@gmx.de Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.158524650820231 (code B ref 38807); Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:16:02 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Mar 2020 18:15:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60167 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jHX24-0005GF-LZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 14:15:08 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-f48.google.com ([209.85.167.48]:34639) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jHX23-0005Ff-JE for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 14:15:07 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-f48.google.com with SMTP id e7so5708818lfq.1 for <38807@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 11:15:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=QJujqNrmlirb1LBU19psDAH+w34jaaFt9gRFNPR6ti8=; b=gJ22pGAQV+y4awK2ezgL3vv2jHBosKyqKD/VFI0+U0kw73kkYUC6XhxyZuvYccAx2Q ms1jLTUnaHfuwR6z7oHXqCS5AjHBwbNeNOY+39OrkrgnYPZjT4tmex+Y6cCJWiy4YPsI jOU4HeIMjga7k+Bbg7O6T8Ijje5UVTzMTG9gu1I+FAPNJ+k66rPtsLRVptAeBgYElyDs 8brKt/szb2qBBB6PX253SQmdVH0AgBNa2DTFMbskk41uXCNNYF9SUvMsoouvxrzDpX04 LUa3v3oZy5YSNahxdZuTOBZLhkV/EcbAs4SNEiB9jwGWe6h/oqFXTennwMumPHyXmoCY hedQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject :in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=QJujqNrmlirb1LBU19psDAH+w34jaaFt9gRFNPR6ti8=; b=cOw4mLg5Y3QMBGhlsABCAvtrv31y5LYyGHXc1owZvuoGuaVGDEXtYYZAEiHHb2XbRx 2BkJT8GMkMkA5KMtHFaPQ82f+HRFnNMUc4w0hor2f5d+Dx5i8Ga/uxmdCKCdeaTCrDTx MhCTbzYcGfEKdHRZiihiHVXuIpNwTAX59pBzO6leL0bubkrlkS2OWOMYH8VuQFjHAlfi jUDorztwYhOQv4FfrQthmHVokjutt4RG09qEpHk9LF6GiD152h2tqgvdsrUFYwQd9s9V U1wgoAWo23l+suR+Hat3WQPRWwQddiwwGNG9IZpI2QFAdog7v72nBChhK/90tgeGhJ7K 4RSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3X1JiUOVrMz1grwEW7I7ev/DUZHDPhLdPNDqsIrw6Yky0MNtNm FZidqgNBIGj4+c6VmpuPHbrnV+YMBcU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vvG6rFy27MSErdE7d2jawYcqw4rFYsOuzsLANj7chdy3Dh2QW4SWNTCK82hgfo7gHnSv1p6uA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:31d5:: with SMTP id j21mr6648079lfe.23.1585246501222; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 11:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kyoncho-H87-D3H ([2a00:4802:28d:1200:3c39:d732:372b:ad0a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y20sm1862627ljd.35.2020.03.26.11.14.59 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 26 Mar 2020 11:15:00 -0700 (PDT) References: <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@gnu.org> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@gmx.de> <831rslmxih.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfqslafm.fsf@gnu.org> <83r20jjgg3.fsf@gnu.org> <83png1hyb8.fsf@gnu.org> <83imlrh9ze.fsf@gnu.org> <83d096dswz.fsf@gnu.org> <83lfnscvfi.fsf@gnu.org> <831rphbyuw.fsf@gnu.org> <837dz79nvh.fsf@gnu.org> User-agent: mu4e 1.3.7; emacs 27.0.60 From: Ivan Yonchovski In-reply-to: <837dz79nvh.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:14:58 +0200 Message-ID: <87v9mrkmot.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Since the user waits for this job to finish anyway, why does it help > to run some of this processing in a separate thread? The user might not want to wait for the completion but he/she might want to continue to type while the parsing is taking place. The effect is that the typing feels slugish. IME with latest native json parsing this is no longer the case for lsp-mode. With my limited understanding of emacs internals I see 2 potential solutions to allow writing of "lisp workers". 1. Start second(or multiple) elisp interpreter in the emacs process which has thread local copy of all of the global data(buffers, data allocation, etc). It may or may not have a gui attached to it. In addition to that, introduce primitives for moving elisp datastructure from the background thread to the main UI thread and vice versa eventually by coping the original structure to avoid bugs. 2. Make the functions that create elisp datastructures threadsafe(or some sane subset) and expose them to the dynamic modules. Thanks, Ivan From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM10:44=EF=BC=8CEli Za= retskii =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 21:37:39 +0800 > > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang > > Cc: michael.albinus=40gmx.de, 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org, yyoncho=40gmai= l.com > > > > I'm not sure I understand the response. Let me repeat the question: > > while the module thread parses JSON, will the main thread wait for it= , > > or will it do something else=3F Can you describe how this would work > > using some use case where lsp-mode is used, like for completing on > > program symbols=3F > > > > 1 After user inputs a char, lsp-mode call the module api to setup a c= ompletion task. The task has a task id. > > The lsp-mode saves the task id as the current task and bind a callbac= k function to it. It then returns. > > 2 The module create a task and adds it to its task queue. > > 3 The worker thread in the module fetches the task from task queue an= d executes it. It builds the json-rpc > > request and sends it to the lsp server. And then it waits for the rep= ly from the lsp server. > > 4 The worker receives the reply from lsp server. It parses the json m= essage and builds the completion > > result to a list(in lisp). > > 5 The worker thread posts a message to emacs. The message includes th= e task id and the completion > > result. > > 6 Emacs receives the message and dispatches it to lsp-mode (by callin= g a function in lsp-mode). The > > function checks that it is the result of the completion ask and call = the task callback function which will > > popups a menu to display the completion items. > > If the above describes what happens when the user requests completion, > then I deduce that the user waits for the entire process you described > to finish, because the user cannot continue without seeing the > completion candidates, and those are only available after item 6 above > is done. > It doesn=E2=80=99t need to wait. When it needs completion, it setup a tas= k with a task id. If the completion result doesn=E2=80=99t arrive before = user input next char. It doesn=E2=80=99t display completion menu. And aft= er user input another =C2=A0char it setup another task with a new task id= and the old task id is retired now.=C2=A0Then if the completion result f= or the old task arrives, it just discards it. It only displays completion= menu when the completion result for the current valid task arrives. Or when lsp add a new completion task to module, the module will know tha= t the old task is cancelled. And it will not send the old completion resu= lt to emacs. This will save more power. > Since the user waits for this job to finish anyway, why does it help > to run some of this processing in a separate thread=3F > > > It will be good if module thread can post message to lisp thread. It = will be > > better if module thread can send lisp data within the message to lisp= thread. > > > > Posting messages is possible by writing to a pipe. But I don't think > > I understand what you mean by =22send Lisp data=22 -- how (in what fo= rm) > > can Lisp data be sent=3F > > > > It can be the above completion list, a point to a lisp object which c= an be passed to emacs to for lsp-mode to > > use. > > A Lisp object that is not stored in the data structures maintained by > alloc.c is not really a Lisp object that has a meaning for Emacs, I > think. > It will be great if emacs support this. > > My understanding is that pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp d= ata. Maybe we can prepare > > data with its > > format and let it deserialize them. > > > > But we already do that: the libjansson library =22serializes=22 the d= ata, > > and we then deserialize it in Emacs as we get the data from the > > library. That deserialization is what takes the time you are trying > > to make shorter. > > > > Before lsp-mode, I used completion tools like irony-mode for c/c++ an= d gocode for golang. They work very > > smoothly. > > > > Now I have used lsp-mode with emacs-27 or emacs master for several we= eks. It doesn=E2=80=99t work as smoothly > > as the above tools. It lags. > > > > I added some debug messages to lsp-mode and see that there are too ma= ny(about 10=7E30) json messages > > arrived after I input every char. Emacs has to parse and process all = of them on every key pressing. > > > > =46or the old completion tools, there are only one or two json messag= es arrived on every key pressing. > > > > Maybe it is the problem of the lsp server. But it is hard to modify t= hem. > > I don't think I understand how this is related to the serialization > issue and the pdumper. Because the most of the above json messages is empty diagnostic messages.= I think lsp-mode will do nothing with them except parsing them. I need p= rofiling it. Many people says that lsp in vim works smoothly. I don=E2=80=99t know if = it supports same features with lsp in emacs. I will try it and compare th= em. --5e8003ff_3f8b0cbf_6dce Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8826=E6=97= =A5 +0800 PM10:44=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C= =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020= 21:37:39 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@outlook.com>
Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, 38807@debbugs.gnu.org, yyoncho@gmail.com

I'm not sure I understand the response. Let me repeat the question:
while the module thread parses JSON, will the main thread wait for it,
or will it do something else? Can you describe how this would work
using some use case where lsp-mode is used, like for completing on
program symbols?

1 After user inputs a char, lsp-mode call the module api to setup a complet= ion task. The task has a task id.
The lsp-mode saves the task id as the current task and bind a callback func= tion to it. It then returns.
2 The module create a task and adds it to its task queue.
3 The worker thread in the module fetches the task from task queue and exec= utes it. It builds the json-rpc
request and sends it to the lsp server. And then it waits for the reply fro= m the lsp server.
4 The worker receives the reply from lsp server. It parses the json message= and builds the completion
result to a list(in lisp).
5 The worker thread posts a message to emacs. The message includes the task= id and the completion
result.
6 Emacs receives the message and dispatches it to lsp-mode (by calling a fu= nction in lsp-mode). The
function checks that it is the result of the completion ask and call the ta= sk callback function which will
popups a menu to display the completion items.

If the above describes what happens when the user requests completion,
then I deduce that the user waits for the entire process you described
to finish, because the user cannot continue without seeing the
completion candidates, and those are only available after item 6 above
is done.


It doesn=E2=80=99t need to wait. When it needs completion= , it setup a task with a task id. If the completion result doesn=E2=80=99t = arrive before user input next char. It doesn=E2=80=99t display completion m= enu. And after user input another  char it setup another task with a n= ew task id and the old task id is retired now. Then if the com= pletion result for the old task arrives, it just discards it. It only displ= ays completion menu when the completion result for the current valid task a= rrives. 

Or when lsp add a new completion task to module, the module will know that = the old task is cancelled. And it will not send the old completion result t= o emacs. This will save more power.

Since the user waits f= or this job to finish anyway, why does it help
to run some of this processing in a separate thread?

It will be good if mod= ule thread can post message to lisp thread. It will be
better if module thread can send lisp data within the message to lisp threa= d.

Posting messages is possible by writing to a pipe. But I don't think
I understand what you mean by "send Lisp data" -- how (in what fo= rm)
can Lisp data be sent?

It can be the above completion list, a point to a lisp object which can be = passed to emacs to for lsp-mode to
use.

A Lisp object that is not stored in the data structures maintained by
alloc.c is not really a Lisp object that has a meaning for Emacs, I
think.


It will be great if emacs support this.

My understanding is th= at pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp data. Maybe we can prepare data with its
format and let it deserialize them.

But we already do that: the libjansson library "serializes" the d= ata,
and we then deserialize it in Emacs as we get the data from the
library. That deserialization is what takes the time you are trying
to make shorter.

Before lsp-mode, I used completion tools like irony-mode for c/c++ = and gocode for golang. They work very
smoothly.

Now I have used lsp-mode with emacs-27 or emacs master for several weeks. I= t doesn=E2=80=99t work as smoothly
as the above tools. It lags.

I added some debug messages to lsp-mode and see that there are too many(abo= ut 10~30) json messages
arrived after I input every char. Emacs has to parse and process all of the= m on every key pressing.

For the old completion tools, there are only one or two json messages arriv= ed on every key pressing.

Maybe it is the problem of the lsp server. But it is hard to modify them.

I don't think I understand how this is related to the serialization
issue and the pdumper. 

Because the most of the above json messages is empty diag= nostic messages. I think lsp-mode will do nothing with them except parsing = them. I need profiling it.

Many people says that lsp in vim works smoothly. I don=E2= =80=99t know if it supports same features with lsp in emacs. I will try it = and compare them.

--5e8003ff_3f8b0cbf_6dce-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8827=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM2:15=EF=BC=8CIvan Yo= nchovski =EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Since the user waits for this job to finish anyway, why does it help > > to run some of this processing in a separate thread=3F > > The user might not want to wait for the completion but he/she might wan= t > to continue to type while the parsing is taking place. The effect is > that the typing feels slugish. IME with latest native json parsing this= > is no longer the case for lsp-mode. > > > With my limited understanding of emacs internals I see 2 potential > solutions to allow writing of =22lisp workers=22. > > 1. Start second(or multiple) elisp interpreter in the emacs process > which has thread local copy of all of the global data(buffers, data > allocation, etc). It may or may not have a gui attached to it. In > addition to that, introduce primitives for moving elisp datastructure > from the background thread to the main UI thread and vice versa > eventually by coping the original structure to avoid bugs. > I=E2=80=99d like not expose any global data to them. Even the data alloca= tion can be standalone. Then they pass lisp object by coping as you said.= > 2. Make the functions that create elisp datastructures threadsafe(or > some sane subset) and expose them to the dynamic modules. > > Thanks, > Ivan --5e800af4_4b683d0d_6dce Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8827=E6=97= =A5 +0800 AM2:15=EF=BC=8CIvan Yonchovski <yyoncho@gmail.com>=EF= =BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A

Eli Zaretskii writes:

Since the user waits f= or this job to finish anyway, why does it help
to run some of this processing in a separate thread?

The user might not want to wait for the completion but he/she might want to continue to type while the parsing is taking place. The effect is
that the typing feels slugish. IME with latest native json parsing this
is no longer the case for lsp-mode.


With my limited understanding of emacs internals I see 2 potential
solutions to allow writing of "lisp workers".

1. Start second(or multiple) elisp interpreter in the emacs process
which has thread local copy of all of the global data(buffers, data
allocation, etc). It may or may not have a gui attached to it. In
addition to that, introduce primitives for moving elisp datastructure
from the background thread to the main UI thread and vice versa
eventually by coping the original structure to avoid bugs.


I=E2=80=99d like not expose any global data to them. Even= the data allocation can be standalone. Then they pass lisp object by copin= g as you said.

2. Make the functions = that create elisp datastructures threadsafe(or
some sane subset) and expose them to the dynamic modules.

Thanks,
Ivan
--5e800af4_4b683d0d_6dce-- From unknown Wed Jul 30 13:11:05 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers. Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 12:33:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38807 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: HaiJun Zhang Cc: 38807@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 38807-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38807.16513219517582 (code B ref 38807); Sat, 30 Apr 2022 12:33:01 +0000 Received: (at 38807) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2022 12:32:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56080 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nkmH1-0001y3-DN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2022 08:32:31 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:47830) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nkmGz-0001sU-Ay for 38807@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2022 08:32:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=29tb0Ae4QESqsWCEmXBcp3q0kXvF84yLOpknfRTpdx0=; b=Qukm03BOluwOj8EqYxQJlryWFi HNf/9IuS6yGlr028125IyEFF2yp5duFHccNRd6gqM2pd7vj1pajllkaABbU4AgRg86QTgAhCzjXT5 0TZGEuJrn97pR8Qlo64/Mdc3N95QHMDMvi7HtjeHoOAJ/2J+EtAXTnnFGo3O+7EIJ5rk=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nkmGq-0007tt-An; Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:32:22 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: X-Now-Playing: New Order's _Technique_: "Run" Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:32:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: (HaiJun Zhang's message of "Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:27:44 +0800") Message-ID: <87a6c23g6l.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: HaiJun Zhang writes: > I think the web worker is a good design for GUI applications such as > web browser. The workers do heavy work and provide the results to the > UI thread. The UI thread only displays the result and r [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) HaiJun Zhang writes: > I think the web worker is a good design for GUI applications such as > web browser. The workers do heavy work and provide the results to the > UI thread. The UI thread only displays the result and responds to user > input events which makes good user responsiveness. (I'm going through old bug reports that unfortunately weren't resolved at the time.) I think it's an interesting idea, but it's pretty high level, I don't think there's anything actionable here as a bug report, so I'm closing it. (This sort of this is better suited for discussion on emacs-devel.) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 30 08:32:37 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2022 12:32:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56083 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nkmH6-00022L-ON for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2022 08:32:36 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:47844) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nkmH5-0001xE-5U for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2022 08:32:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=5S+ZJGfdqsdkle7ePNjXbS05u03lT3L8+3Qy+gXzqFY=; b=XxI+Ld4zpUffawuqDvIJqHAw+a YdKmxhaTYPhgZ9RRg1iPVTZfZMOHxUv2K7AQPR0TOUkVfNf0sBB8f++5PZMYFv2khmKRaLEgZ2xzm mgNMsbivyCZ1lTWXlU8YpFtnlguh04j7UOFAn1KciXjfFk4iDJoqrVRqYfEXoGCKRxhY=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nkmGx-0007uA-Dd for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:32:29 +0200 Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:32:24 +0200 Message-Id: <878rrm3g6f.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #38807 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 38807 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 38807 quit