From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:18 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#38736 <38736@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#38736 <38736@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 26.3; ellipsis in `*Messages*', doc of `format' etc. Reply-To: bug#38736 <38736@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 09:38:18 +0000 retitle 38736 26.3; ellipsis in `*Messages*', doc of `format' etc. reassign 38736 emacs submitter 38736 Drew Adams severity 38736 minor thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 24 16:03:04 2019 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2019 21:03:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53115 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ijrKZ-0004Yv-Vp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 16:03:04 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:44914) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ijrKX-0004Ym-U3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2019-08-05; bh=fEUwRnS1o20/vgjuOBg0XGbDmoqFyWqb1sAZPi7LuLo=; b=Yj5kPOSgSrau05GDdusRdosY3zy7lscv75awXQhFixHGUwA+hQT2J9QPM2SdXSzJHPX/ xbCufnua9D3Gv3hrryIxg7ybDwK3jXnnN7VStEyXRu2k8YeNCBafq48L2QnDyuSQLbvD BYkq+5m2rQW4/KfoK87P4Lt868zj7F34mAMa7eeNd2kKy0VFaoiyepf9/YPwUrnyp3x9 kZRQ2vDiL1n+1lxJYQ/SkFM4XSHnjl4pUCY6C0EAXcPa8cX5K1m6dcqezAweC0rFAIG0 aqxHVoEKl4156xnjIZnQuO1zEPVYRPVw0jFuHidOcBl74k7CM2ervC63IJo8uQS2qAoH wQ== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2x1bbpw044-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 21:02:57 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xBOKwKgl040131 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 21:02:57 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2x37tedrh0-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 21:02:57 +0000 Received: from abhmp0012.oracle.com (abhmp0012.oracle.com [141.146.116.18]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id xBOL2tNQ029092 for ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 21:02:56 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <006e6244-dd0a-46a8-8c61-36744b3216de@default> Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 13:02:55 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 26.3; ellipsis in `*Messages*', doc of `format' etc. X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4939.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9481 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=1 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1912240185 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9481 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1912240185 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.78 X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) The doc string of `format' doesn't tell you anything about control by `print-level', `print-length', etc. Please consider adding such info. Consider trying to figure out, when looking at a message in `*Messages*', why a long list value shows ellipsis ("..."), instead of showing all the elements. You try `C-h f message', which says nothing about this. The most it does is provide a bunch of details about the formatting intermediary `format-message', imposed since Emacs 25. Are details about %, `, and ' so important for `message' that they merit a paragraph, but `print-level' and `print-length' are not so important? (What's more: the doc string for `message' goes into more detail than=20 the one for `format-message', which doesn't even mention %, even though the former tells you to refer to the latter "for details".) Following the `format-message' link, you still get no clue about this, but you then follow a link for `format'. There you still get no clue about it, but you see that %S uses `prin1'. Following the `prin1' link you finally find out that you can control `message's use of ellipsis using `print-length' and `print-level'. Users shouldn't have to go through all of that (and that even assumes that they are able to guess that following just that thread might get=20 them somewhere useful). What's true for `message' is also true for `error', etc. At least the doc of `format' - and probably its often-used callers, such as `message' - should specifically mention these "print"-controlling (really just formatting) variables. In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2019-08-29 Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.17763 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 25 09:35:00 2019 Received: (at 38736) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Dec 2019 14:35:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53417 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ik7ka-0000xx-7L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 09:35:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37782) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ik7kY-0000xl-Tf for 38736@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 09:34:59 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:59706) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ik7kT-0005Pc-B9; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 09:34:53 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4904 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ik7kS-0002Kp-Ht; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 09:34:52 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 16:34:41 +0200 Message-Id: <83pngcv5ha.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <006e6244-dd0a-46a8-8c61-36744b3216de@default> (message from Drew Adams on Tue, 24 Dec 2019 13:02:55 -0800 (PST)) Subject: Re: bug#38736: 26.3; ellipsis in `*Messages*', doc of `format' etc. References: <006e6244-dd0a-46a8-8c61-36744b3216de@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38736 Cc: 38736@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 13:02:55 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > > The doc string of `format' doesn't tell you anything about control by > `print-level', `print-length', etc. Please consider adding such info. > > Consider trying to figure out, when looking at a message in > `*Messages*', why a long list value shows ellipsis ("..."), instead of > showing all the elements. You try `C-h f message', which says nothing > about this. The most it does is provide a bunch of details about the > formatting intermediary `format-message', imposed since Emacs 25. How did you get the ellipsis in *Messages*? I'm guessing you invoked 'eval', because this is a feature of 'eval'. So looking for the information in the doc string of 'message' is a somewhat strange place. The doc string of 'eval' does mention the variables which control when the ellipsis is produced. > Following the `format-message' link, you still get no clue about this, > but you then follow a link for `format'. There you still get no clue > about it, but you see that %S uses `prin1'. > > Following the `prin1' link you finally find out that you can control > `message's use of ellipsis using `print-length' and `print-level'. > > Users shouldn't have to go through all of that (and that even assumes > that they are able to guess that following just that thread might get > them somewhere useful). > > What's true for `message' is also true for `error', etc. At least the > doc of `format' - and probably its often-used callers, such as `message' > - should specifically mention these "print"-controlling (really just > formatting) variables. I don't think it's reasonable to ask to have this low-level stuff bubble up to such high levels, which are quite far from the features which are affected by these variables. %S is not a frequently used format, so describing what prin1 does in the doc strings of 'message' etc. just for its sake doesn't seem like a good idea to me. OTOH, I'd expect users who use %S to know already about the ellipsis and how to control it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 25 11:45:05 2019 Received: (at 38736) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Dec 2019 16:45:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54640 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ik9mS-0004Jt-S6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 11:45:05 -0500 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:45376) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ik9mQ-0004J2-JK for 38736@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 11:45:03 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xBPGiAMP033833; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 16:44:56 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2019-08-05; bh=AeXsL7xYl7as4roh3yMm4zUz8ygwxHaO2649Z3+vS2k=; b=aqYLSje73Od8LHxSYOdOk7vQq1himaXPeoqVVEbAYt2xMru7XbqU66geGNBV9Jm++3DF /1FnFmC7zYrgPY1CBTrcSiQ3yHD8aMJVQh2QWf4gYv+iZVqedbNN7vD0XKcmSG3tHLuw PGheGs6gjpLYVGO/MubK3mAyX68EHp4W+QD4T+UzfeZbU8OywFcurfUjUm3vz4M8M5Rl a0JlUYHtERNkod7V9HpP5qwf6SjogG361cGYipimGrHTR8+0N48A7X5ybCCz6OUeHO4N SW107gHegv14JKWgoLA2sp93tLryOx3hRgrui3sCnpqiXo2LhqOlYhu2ISDEttVCZ3+v bQ== Received: from userp3030.oracle.com (userp3030.oracle.com [156.151.31.80]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2x1c1qykyg-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 25 Dec 2019 16:44:56 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xBPGhxn1027642; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 16:44:56 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2x3brevw6f-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 25 Dec 2019 16:44:55 +0000 Received: from abhmp0011.oracle.com (abhmp0011.oracle.com [141.146.116.17]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id xBPGiscD007580; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 16:44:55 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <32378b4e-d158-48d5-a48c-7afde59f5d32@default> Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 08:44:53 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: RE: bug#38736: 26.3; ellipsis in `*Messages*', doc of `format' etc. References: <<006e6244-dd0a-46a8-8c61-36744b3216de@default>> <<83pngcv5ha.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83pngcv5ha.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4939.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9481 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1912250143 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9481 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1912250143 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38736 Cc: 38736@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > Consider trying to figure out, when looking at a message in > > `*Messages*', why a long list value shows ellipsis ("..."),=20 > > instead of showing all the elements. >=20 > How did you get the ellipsis in *Messages*? By a call (message "Result: %S" result), where the value of `result' is a long list. > I'm guessing you invoked 'eval', because this is a > feature of 'eval'. So looking for the information > in the doc string of 'message' is a somewhat strange > place. `message', like other functions, evaluates its args. And `format' for %S ends up using `prin1'. Help-wise, to get from `message' and `...' to `print-length' is a long haul. > > Following the `format-message' link, you still get no clue about > > this, but you then follow a link for `format'. There you still > > get no clue about it, but you see that %S uses `prin1'. > > > > Following the `prin1' link you finally find out that you can control > > `message's use of ellipsis using `print-length' and `print-level'. > > > > Users shouldn't have to go through all of that (and that even assumes > > that they are able to guess that following just that thread might get > > them somewhere useful). > > > > What's true for `message' is also true for `error', etc. At least > > the doc of `format' - and probably its often-used callers, such as > > `message' - should specifically mention these "print"-controlling > > (really just formatting) variables. >=20 > I don't think it's reasonable to ask to have this low-level stuff > bubble up to such high levels, which are quite far from the features > which are affected by these variables. It's not lower-level than are the details currently included about %, `, and '. =20 If it's enough for the `message' doc to just refer to `format-message' for `print-length' (eventually, after following links), then it should be enough for that doc to just refer to `format-message' for the info about %, `, and ', no? And as mentioned, % is not even mentioned in the doc for `format-message'. Why is it more important to mention % in the "higher-level" function `message' than in `format-message'? > %S is not a frequently used format, Why do you think so? It's perhaps the most common formatting string when using `message' for debugging etc., which I think is a common use case. %S is the most general formatting string, accepting any Lisp object. > I'd expect users who use %S to know already > about the ellipsis and how to control it. IOW, you expect users of `message' - which is pretty much everyone who uses Elisp - to know that. Well, I use `message' and `%S' a lot, yet I had to track it down, exactly as reported: `message' > `format-message' > `format' > %S > `prin1' > `print-length' Using %S with `message' likely doesn't give you `...' often. When it does, you can want to ask Emacs how to control that. Currently you have to dig deeply to find out. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 25 12:23:31 2019 Received: (at 38736-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Dec 2019 17:23:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54674 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ikANf-0005E2-3V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 12:23:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:60777) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ikANd-0005Dp-7L for 38736-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 12:23:29 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33886) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ikANX-00023F-TJ; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 12:23:23 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3545 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ikANW-0007rb-Jn; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 12:23:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 19:23:13 +0200 Message-Id: <83d0ccuxoe.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <32378b4e-d158-48d5-a48c-7afde59f5d32@default> (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 25 Dec 2019 08:44:53 -0800 (PST)) Subject: Re: bug#38736: 26.3; ellipsis in `*Messages*', doc of `format' etc. References: <<006e6244-dd0a-46a8-8c61-36744b3216de@default>> <<83pngcv5ha.fsf@gnu.org>> <32378b4e-d158-48d5-a48c-7afde59f5d32@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38736-done Cc: 38736-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 08:44:53 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 38736@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > Consider trying to figure out, when looking at a message in > > > `*Messages*', why a long list value shows ellipsis ("..."), > > > instead of showing all the elements. > > > > How did you get the ellipsis in *Messages*? > > By a call (message "Result: %S" result), where the > value of `result' is a long list. That's not a "call", that's evaluation. And using %S is a prerequisite, AFAIK; you won't get the ellipsis with other formats. Like I said: eval's doc string documents this feature, you just looked for the documentation in the wrong place (and still found it, albeit through a long path). So I see nothing to be done here, and I'm closing this bug report. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 25 15:55:06 2019 Received: (at 38736-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Dec 2019 20:55:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54704 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ikDgP-0001nr-N6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 15:55:06 -0500 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:32892) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ikDgN-0001n5-ME for 38736-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 15:55:04 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xBPKnNRP171234; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 20:54:57 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2019-08-05; bh=WQeOgeJKGMFwGbKl4JMZo/8bAh6Knc8H9/eBUOgwjO8=; b=aBHCkpC1cSN71wI1U+Tu6Pi7ecWOcKeXFJDivMZ8OMkDpVQtH9/qq1zyZ9p7LuxYweBq q3l7rd5K+esXEfxt8oRlgL7/Jp1fDO9pYFBpasYW2d4upKtKP0fb1THC6gi6aFn0H7c4 EwRkQTZfCfug4dWK1okllQ5imgS2pYQr9NrWS8bHvRPazMf59Xw7UP5XSjnjf04e9CqY TtZ/2IgRiMf6yPJO3c887Ivew9xto18Vm5Eiseel5RZeOj8H3BUSQGkSyhHV0nbcn9SA p1tZI1pT2ansN8fqiN8Aej2LyCyxVDXrX4civyAcZIUIo5Xr3nETnAqLKuv3uljLfjor Mg== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2x1c1qyvv2-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 25 Dec 2019 20:54:57 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xBPKm8A6101934; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 20:54:56 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2x37tfcwcu-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 25 Dec 2019 20:54:56 +0000 Received: from abhmp0017.oracle.com (abhmp0017.oracle.com [141.146.116.23]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id xBPKstO3025427; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 20:54:56 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4a9b955a-ac97-41d9-a373-fc37b37581a4@default> Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 12:54:54 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: RE: bug#38736: 26.3; ellipsis in `*Messages*', doc of `format' etc. References: <<<006e6244-dd0a-46a8-8c61-36744b3216de@default>>> <<<83pngcv5ha.fsf@gnu.org>>> <<32378b4e-d158-48d5-a48c-7afde59f5d32@default>> <<83d0ccuxoe.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83d0ccuxoe.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4939.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9481 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1912250182 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9481 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1912250182 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38736-done Cc: 38736-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > > How did you get the ellipsis in *Messages*? > > > > By a call (message "Result: %S" result), where > > the value of `result' is a long list. >=20 > That's not a "call", that's evaluation. Huh? It's in code, in a function body. But of course, code (source/byte-compiled) is evaluated (interpreted, executed, whatever term you prefer). Executing that code means evaluating that sexp, yes. And? It's not clear what hairs you are trying to split, here. > And using %S is a prerequisite, AFAIK; you won't > get the ellipsis with other formats. Correct, which is why I said (message "%S"), and not just calling `message'. > Like I said: eval's doc string documents this > feature, I see nothing in the doc string of `eval' that tells you `%S' in the `message' format string is controlled by `print-length'. Or even anything close to it. eval is a built-in function in 'C source code'. (eval FORM &optional LEXICAL) Evaluate FORM and return its value. If LEXICAL is t, evaluate using lexical scoping. LEXICAL can also be an actual lexical environment, in the form of an alist mapping symbols to their value. Pointing to `eval' here seems like a very red herring. > you just looked for the documentation in the > wrong place `C-h f eval' is the right place? How so? How does it help? > (and still found it, albeit through a long path). Exactly what I reported. A long road to get to info about a commonly used construct. (Or do you still maintain that %S is rarely used with `message'?) And note that if you try to find it in the Elisp manual, starting with `message' (node `Displaying Messages') and linking to node `Formatting Strings', then what you find for %S is this: '%S' Replace the specification with the printed representation of the object, made with quoting (that is, using 'prin1'-*note Output Functions::). Thus, strings are enclosed in '"' characters, and '\' characters appear where necessary before special characters. Then you need to follow the `Output Functions' link to read about `prin1'. Again, several links to follow. Even in `Formatting Strings' it would make sense to not give the impression that `prin1' is only about "quoting". "quoting (that is, using `prin1'" `prin1's use of variables `print-length' etc. have nothing to do with "quoting". > So I see nothing to be done here, and I'm > closing this bug report. Too bad, once again. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 25 22:24:24 2019 Received: (at 38736) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Dec 2019 03:24:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54807 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ikJlA-000883-3a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 22:24:24 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:38875) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ikJl7-00087m-RS for 38736@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 22:24:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1577330646; bh=XpZS9j4vDdfgkQnDjUvOfLg2XZ2T8vJ6OtOxIMAG9EI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=DpbUGUc+qSoK7fPrSwhJu9TcFKLelVHMwoQCmaIbSzkbrlXslpO1ItmwzRvXg075B kHl2V6i/gNLpRxh+/BM9OSZMH1WGmcrsqkwLnn3KIx/VYZCnL8kQJwRrKx7BjYfjHF TSv+eD4w/ERDSUnnVCKfA24ZgOcSOm81IjxmC+g8= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([188.107.138.210]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb004 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M2IuS-1jaDQ22n8W-00s4mH; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 04:24:06 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen To: 38736@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#38736: 26.3; ellipsis in `*Messages*', doc of `format' etc. References: <006e6244-dd0a-46a8-8c61-36744b3216de@default>> <83pngcv5ha.fsf@gnu.org>> <32378b4e-d158-48d5-a48c-7afde59f5d32@default> <83d0ccuxoe.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 04:24:07 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83d0ccuxoe.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 25 Dec 2019 19:23:13 +0200") Message-ID: <877e2j22i0.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:hXML2WUwKRQK3PgHSpr2s0ft4kDLuQudh91pwnL1DWOqwUqTiJ9 M7ESiMhRDjets6vFo5SvBePJUl/StMMgjtyg85u/gK24nKgVqThvh0pHagIhrmltmu+9zVR plg27RAN3PcspeC4UdFcex3WcJs3o7VbpG0tMOONsdZzcNyotJlSgsFeM0g39w8GE2uk5FO 3SQfyOZRbAgGpYjCiCbyQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:DnARC+Lk3qU=:UHMCnuVLlhbe56Q9To4uzl R07I/QUi+8sNzGFXYgvoOx/KtooYvd5d0Fuh0VDPaz8U+h5LyUyigAWy6ONzr9Rpk1Ahux7yw Ienc3aih3ca0I5spsSL1VVAOz+C8OoV68gTwyGGCO6ObbGjeiLwwI/axXZYSG2GbSCkgYW1+1 UsFvrFdwbqpSGMpPTOI4NBTis2t8EmWytIC7vkFYPzeiaIv4KZFDWPeQt0/CFHVxscFkMtcZV bBWOvCNgT9g7+AJU5iBIFtsCRkDhpBHG6ZWMhJG2OP7sCGzfHV8uVaPDSW3ET90JScQzCEIL4 rrPqkBbSAe+3s9bobC51u1/d2ZicHVka4W0izIa91VUZQCt04N2xxCoq5fjsJkt1Azu//KCMS LHUWBFXv2EPYdXSzmMNB17y8Ozwf+2ACapvSAoVPBoM1k5YSXnZnB1s75JToO9PVoJAhnTTtv v2FRA0TrYX930ZvBKzJp/3B6Nh4wxK61q8k2fHgGIboaUm8uo2QRz+F3jGrniuUWW84lylVem Xn4fO0TYRwDMfxGp6T0nzhv5jIM6sKu5tCju10ixhNqpZQezfE5wq/4cgNfdVo8SVPatuZ6th LVaQiU4Bg6GiCoGZYRlC1HCPxRmuhI6AWHGNz01ZC5LoRpBWmmtpLiBjM2hMky4itneAkXIid uiRHbfkpqvUolzugMWrrUTteu3HUy9XxqRjehDHkvkwElS9Hdmksp8322tBVEsAqzD9/Ooi24 enh9y4f4MEYSTyOgETn5DwJ447Og6KZljWTkDi4N2/CbuU71Y8TmmzQCk0INXu4ljr7ulTZKC 0QZigfd23X4wEiuZq7rOPCqpL17ca2Ey+ewlKaoHEmANW8WlYrXLXvUSV7/yPuMd/pggQ2tkn JytYLD8f101vqeqo9CMSyjzvcgLIX9Z9zoBhjn5fjYNMbKlUz9fEKIxreZ9kMdrRZKDpYV+Nn sR++c1TQ140lC701ASNa1ZTRRASs8hkHPzp3rsH6d0ZIw5KxbXBOcAlzHvmEOK+6iHQuaTCcM jQO+cH2S1Z/5GG40ymkvCk6KoQLbYWtGm9KCtlzLSeg+qOeX1qtVtZKyKAQyvGYZL8ZqRlqHp BsPG7HpxcYBDI9D+qcJ/u3SE58uiTudvGfBmBhQ+rRo7faTRsfL8qdn9QAz2NfiLNKM5kiRXT TT2LGnIr3FaVxnm/blKAO/A0VtG795LIL7D+ngoyadw8Hz8TaHi8R0gNmDlDFsgtTHvl85aPJ e48E3bAJ7c4hMRSvnMOHKiIcNSUr4CC1aKqL5gZi0i+HfgqflrOO0r7forqU= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38736 Cc: eliz@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Like I said: eval's doc string documents this feature I don't understand that comment either, did you mean `prin1'? > you just looked for the documentation in the wrong place (and still > found it, albeit through a long path). So I see nothing to be done > here, and I'm closing this bug report. I can agree that what we have is acceptable. But in this sentence in the docstring of `message': "The first argument is a format control string [...]" "format" could get quoted so that it gets transformed into a link to the `format' help page - right? Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 25 22:28:43 2019 Received: (at 38736) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Dec 2019 03:28:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54811 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ikJpL-0008Ei-K7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 22:28:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43899) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ikJpJ-0008EM-FD for 38736@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 22:28:41 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:38794) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ikJpE-0002Tw-52; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 22:28:36 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4616 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ikJpC-0006Y8-RI; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 22:28:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 05:28:25 +0200 Message-Id: <838smzvk86.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <4a9b955a-ac97-41d9-a373-fc37b37581a4@default> (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 25 Dec 2019 12:54:54 -0800 (PST)) Subject: Re: bug#38736: 26.3; ellipsis in `*Messages*', doc of `format' etc. References: <<<006e6244-dd0a-46a8-8c61-36744b3216de@default>>> <<<83pngcv5ha.fsf@gnu.org>>> <<32378b4e-d158-48d5-a48c-7afde59f5d32@default>> <<83d0ccuxoe.fsf@gnu.org>> <4a9b955a-ac97-41d9-a373-fc37b37581a4@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38736 Cc: 38736@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 12:54:54 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 38736-done@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Like I said: eval's doc string documents this > > feature, > > I see nothing in the doc string of `eval' that > tells you `%S' in the `message' format string is > controlled by `print-length'. Or even anything > close to it. Sorry, I meant eval-expression, what is run by M-:. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 26 11:23:47 2019 Received: (at 38736) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Dec 2019 16:23:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56136 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ikVvP-0004zV-94 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 11:23:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53021) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ikVvM-0004zI-5E for 38736@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 11:23:45 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45610) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ikVvG-0006lb-G7; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 11:23:38 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2708 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ikVvF-0002na-Ts; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 11:23:38 -0500 Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 18:23:34 +0200 Message-Id: <83imm3qcmx.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-reply-to: <877e2j22i0.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Thu, 26 Dec 2019 04:24:07 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#38736: 26.3; ellipsis in `*Messages*', doc of `format' etc. References: <006e6244-dd0a-46a8-8c61-36744b3216de@default>> <83pngcv5ha.fsf@gnu.org>> <32378b4e-d158-48d5-a48c-7afde59f5d32@default> <83d0ccuxoe.fsf@gnu.org> <877e2j22i0.fsf@web.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38736 Cc: 38736@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: eliz@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com > Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 04:24:07 +0100 > > But in this sentence in the docstring of `message': > > "The first argument is a format control string [...]" > > "format" could get quoted so that it gets transformed into a link to the > `format' help page - right? No, because that "format" is not a reference to 'format' the function. There's a link to 'format-message' a little bit below that, so I think we are fine on that front. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 26 12:49:56 2019 Received: (at 38736) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Dec 2019 17:49:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56200 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ikXGl-0007Dj-MT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 12:49:56 -0500 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:33232) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ikXGk-0007DR-DL for 38736@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 12:49:54 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xBQHiBiq190199; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:49:48 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2019-08-05; bh=SaNhqi9cmCQOl10qkIz7RzR1v2P/cUcOtX/b6hevCFw=; b=UcFioLgKpVcrMRc+BF/hn9+4iqhOoN7lqzqoMbL5QsuzowRAPSJLjD45wGCpVWT3eEDb mb1O9Yu3Nlk+LLsOK4iPMP4IipiGom1xQwcPegMF7LkHCNz9+W1glk9J2aQLAi8pdys4 5/B3H7L+7LNpKV5jNqlg/1Pv7FafgtcdWv/4AZ66bCndRgvtF6432Bfy34P972nNrlnf KH/lGlk1ZdCDLGcvHMFlt2Uqe8b5OWwg5kSskMtub/NAhLp5pZIsj/ybaQOe3aidcMor 6TUejBBUCEPYHMPP2qStaiVQ+vINTbbUol9AiDiBuB0USvDUOx60As7tBwgIg2IlD2Nd xg== Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2x1c1r2r8m-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:49:48 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xBQHiBDo164843; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:49:47 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2x3nn7mk4j-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:49:47 +0000 Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id xBQHnk54015790; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 17:49:46 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 09:49:45 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: RE: bug#38736: 26.3; ellipsis in `*Messages*', doc of `format' etc. References: <<<<006e6244-dd0a-46a8-8c61-36744b3216de@default>>>> <<<<83pngcv5ha.fsf@gnu.org>>>> <<<32378b4e-d158-48d5-a48c-7afde59f5d32@default>>> <<<83d0ccuxoe.fsf@gnu.org>>> <<4a9b955a-ac97-41d9-a373-fc37b37581a4@default>> <<838smzvk86.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<838smzvk86.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4939.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9482 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1912260162 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9482 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1912260162 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38736 Cc: 38736@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > > Like I said: eval's doc string documents this > > > feature, > > > > I see nothing in the doc string of `eval' that > > tells you `%S' in the `message' format string is > > controlled by `print-length'. Or even anything > > close to it. >=20 > Sorry, I meant eval-expression, what is run by M-:. FWIW, I made it clear that I did not use `eval-expression' (`M-:): >>> How did you get the ellipsis in *Messages*? >> >> By a call (message "Result: %S" result), >> where the value of `result' is a long list. And when you then said that (message "Result: %S" result) is "not a call, that's evaluation", I replied that it was used "in code, in a function body." The general point is that a user who wants to know about the behavior of `message', in particular for a format string with %S (but not limited to that), now needs to dig deep into a chain of doc strings or manual links. `message', like `format', is very commonly used. And (I think) %S may be the most commonly used %-sequence with `message'. We now clutter the doc of `message' with info about ` and ', and to link to the doc for `format-message'. That further complicates trying to understand `message' behavior. The `message' doc even has this gratuitous text now: To display STRING without special treatment, use (message "%s" STRING). There's no STRING in the function signature. There's nothing special about a STRING arg, and %s doesn't just print a STRING as a string - it prints anything as a string. Parameter ARGS isn't even described by name. It's OK that we say that "the rest are data to be formatted...". But, especially because of that sentence about STRING data, it's not made sufficiently clear that the "data", are Lisp objects of any kind. If you really want to have a statement about using %s to produce string output then just say that. Don't show a call to `message' where the second arg is STRING - that's misleading. Here's my suggestion, at this point. But perhaps we can do better - I don't have all the answers. 1. Say that the ARGS are Lisp objects of any kind. 2. Say that ARGS are handled by `format-message', (alas) and the result is shown as a message. 3. Users can follow the `format-message' link to get all the formatting info they need. 4. Don't mention `, ', or %. That doesn't help without more info; it's just noise. 5. If you _do_ show an example using % then use %S, and point out that it uses `prin1'. (Maybe even say that `prin1' is controlled by variables such as `print-level'.) #3 is a step back from my initial suggestion for trying to shorten the journey to info about the `prin1' variables. #5 might mitigate #3. I don't have a perfect solution, at this point. It's _really_ too bad that we had to introduce `format-message'. Going from `message' doc to `format-message' doc works against usability and understanding. As opposed to `format', the `format-message' doc talks only about the new "quoting" hoops. It forces you to move to the `format' doc to get the %-sequences info you really need, to make use of `message' in the most common ways. The "quoting" stuff should be the last, not the first, thing you read when trying to understand `message' and the like. (And `format-message' is specifically for messaging.) It would be better - if we're forced to send people to `format-message' first - if its doc string contained all of the info that's in the `format' doc, and it added the "quoting" stuff only at the end. Better, IOW, for users coming from `message' and the like to get the main format-control info (%-sequences) first. As it stands now, the cart ("quoting") is put before the horse (%-sequences), when trying to understand `message' and the like. I know that we don't want to just duplicate all the `format' doc. That's not great. But `message' is a high-level access point for using format control strings, and to get to the important info about those, you now have to get past the unhelpful, noisy doc of `format-message'. If a user stops at that doc, and doesn't plow forward to the `format' doc, then the most important messages about `message' will not get through. [This would have been avoided as a problem if `message' had not been co-opted to use `format-message', i.e., if we had instead just added a separate function, e.g., `message-with-quote-munging', which used `format-message'. Alas, that ship has sailed.] From unknown Mon Aug 18 02:38:18 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 12:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator