From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" Resent-From: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: rms@gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:04:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: rms@gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-Xcc: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.157689018722199 (code B ref -1); Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:04:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2019 01:03:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47466 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iiTAh-0005lz-E7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 20:03:07 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:50724) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iiTAg-0005ls-CW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 20:03:06 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59797) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iiTAe-0002wj-Rt for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 20:03:05 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iiTAc-0007zO-F2 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 20:03:04 -0500 Received: from cheetah.birch.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.209.34]:52677) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iiTAb-0007kt-PN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 20:03:02 -0500 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F4CF580CFF for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:02:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a55.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-83-39.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.83.39]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D0B20580900 for ; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:02:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a55.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:02:59 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Harmony-Keen: 1e5beaef0cd51a07_1576890179061_430835781 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1576890179061:2009894018 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1576890179061 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a55.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a55.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 878A47F521 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 17:02:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=jidanni.org; h=from:to :subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s= jidanni.org; bh=tHtS8OT+DVQdSLIldoXome/lWmA=; b=bS9vLIn8j1SDt8wB x0pmik6SbzTJSP6/2x1YnbVCtJTpNdcLsW8xqm7UyRLOE0cQ6mUPLnSe3WV02zCf am1cXJMVTclh0m9e4XIeGvIPeDbzIUvTAiHM0lUK36DwaGnwh/Hrg4yAwq5EKv39 0hnGYcktBQehHorFLERQCIBvYAA= Received: from jidanni.org (1-170-82-239.dynamic-ip.hinet.net [1.170.82.239]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jidanni@jidanni.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a55.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2CEF27F520 for ; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 17:02:52 -0800 (PST) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a55 From: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 08:02:23 +0800 Message-ID: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: 0 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrvddugedgvdehucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpffftgfetoffjqffuvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefhvffufffkgggtsehttdertddttdejnecuhfhrohhmpejnnjjnucffrghnucflrggtohgsshhonhcuoehjihgurghnnhhisehjihgurghnnhhirdhorhhgqeenucfkphepuddrudejtddrkedvrddvfeelnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphdphhgvlhhopehjihgurghnnhhirdhorhhgpdhinhgvthepuddrudejtddrkedvrddvfeelpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpeeprehuthhfqdekreeureehiehmpfehnfhiheehsgevkeerpecuffgrnhculfgrtghosghsohhnuceojhhiuggrnhhnihesjhhiuggrnhhnihdrohhrgheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepjhhiuggrnhhnihesjhhiuggrnhhnihdrohhrghdpnhhrtghpthhtohepsghughdqghhnuhdqvghmrggtshesghhnuhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 23.83.209.34 X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) Here's a problem that I think illustrates a departure from Dr. Stallman's original goals (which include to keep the user "in the know", "in control.") Let's say the user wants to make the font bigger. In emacs he goes into the menu bar and picks "Options" > "Set Default Font", makes it bigger, and then chooses "Save Options", which pastes some "custom-set" code into his .emacs file that even contains a warning "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up", meaning for the rest of his life he should just play it safe and stick with the menus. It might as well just paste some compiled bytecode in there. There isn't even any good old fashioned setq versions the user could learn with and expand left around in any temporary buffer. Nor is there any decompiler command provided. From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" Resent-From: Phil Sainty Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 06:35:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson , 38696@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 38696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38696.157691008920309 (code B ref 38696); Sat, 21 Dec 2019 06:35:02 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2019 06:34:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47561 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iiYLh-0005HV-0S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:34:49 -0500 Received: from smtp-1.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.34]:35611) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iiYLf-0005HL-2C for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:34:48 -0500 Received: from [116.251.203.246] (port=31390 helo=[192.168.20.103]) by smtp-1.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iiYLb-0001dV-KK; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 19:34:43 +1300 References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> From: Phil Sainty Message-ID: <6416dc64-18a6-8c2f-f147-18ba19ad5b7e@orcon.net.nz> Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 19:34:43 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-GeoIP: NZ X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 21/12/19 1:02 PM, 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson wrote: > that even contains a warning "If you edit it by hand, you could mess > it up", meaning for the rest of his life he should just play it safe > and stick with the menus. It neither says (nor even hints) that this will be the case "for the rest of [your] life". I think it implies that it's possible to avoid messing it up, provided that you know what you're doing; which in turn suggests that you might learn how to do that. Like everything else in Emacs, you can use the documentation and code in order to gain that understanding, if you choose to. For those who choose not to, the warning serves a valuable purpose. -Phil From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" In-Reply-To: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Resent-From: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 08:13:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Phil Sainty Cc: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 38696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38696.157691593728857 (code B ref 38696); Sat, 21 Dec 2019 08:13:02 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2019 08:12:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47594 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iiZs1-0007VN-98 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 03:12:17 -0500 Received: from camel.birch.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.209.29]:40264) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iiZrz-0007VF-FF for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 03:12:16 -0500 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6FC8C1728; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 08:12:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a71.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-91-164.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.91.164]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 699FD8C1A3D; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 08:12:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a71.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Sat, 21 Dec 2019 08:12:13 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Left-Towering: 18792c9a72c70d97_1576915933654_2062186843 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1576915933654:361854703 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1576915933654 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a71.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a71.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2145583178; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 00:12:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=jidanni.org; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=jidanni.org; bh=9CaZoIgif8WkcpFjR/82kiiEpSE=; b=P5v3kzoadcXyl U7r0xsoJl37b/nx3iVGlQ44YB98dzu/MHZv3ZNkI74oP+uQdBNeocQXHwkz3MYsr +wJJNgx8OPZpEXLuJH5q6THFu+q57deg0Zudkm+0jbEF4xxI3ei8qZmUlS/l+kbL kBBrI/PxQ+BnPuR5Hl5jiov2Ex0Kx4= Received: from jidanni.org (114-41-22-70.dynamic-ip.hinet.net [114.41.22.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jidanni@jidanni.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a71.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 585A78318B; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 00:12:09 -0800 (PST) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a71 From: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <6416dc64-18a6-8c2f-f147-18ba19ad5b7e@orcon.net.nz> Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 16:12:05 +0800 Message-ID: <87a77mw10q.8.fsf@jidanni.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrvddugedgudduudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpefhvffufhffkfggtgesthdtredttddtjeenucfhrhhomhepnjjnnjcuffgrnhculfgrtghosghsohhnuceojhhiuggrnhhnihesjhhiuggrnhhnihdrohhrgheqnecukfhppeduudegrdeguddrvddvrdejtdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghlohepjhhiuggrnhhnihdrohhrghdpihhnvghtpeduudegrdeguddrvddvrdejtddprhgvthhurhhnqdhprghthheppeeruhhtfhdqkeerueerheeimhfphefnihehhegsveekreepucffrghnucflrggtohgsshhonhcuoehjihgurghnnhhisehjihgurghnnhhirdhorhhgqedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehjihgurghnnhhisehjihgurghnnhhirdhorhhgpdhnrhgtphhtthhopehrmhhssehgnhhurdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) No. It could offer: "Would you like instead some simple lisp that you can modify by hand later? Even if it might not be as efficient?" Or it could just add the simple lisp version in a comment below its "custom-set" version without asking the user. Or it could document a decompiler. From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 19:09:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A7=C2=A9=C2=8D=C3=A4=C2=B8=C2=B9=C3=A5=C2=B0=C2=BC?= Dan Jacobson Cc: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 38696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38696.15769553386754 (code B ref 38696); Sat, 21 Dec 2019 19:09:01 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2019 19:08:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48774 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iik7W-0001ks-6Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 14:08:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:45381) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iik7U-0001kf-N2 for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 14:08:57 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33191) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iik7P-0000Ik-62; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 14:08:51 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1iik7O-0008MZ-7O; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 14:08:50 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 14:08:50 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Let's say the user wants to make the font bigger. > In emacs he goes into the menu bar and picks "Options" > "Set > Default Font", makes it bigger, and then chooses "Save Options", which > pastes some "custom-set" code into his .emacs file > that even contains a warning "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up", > meaning for the rest of his life he should just play it safe and stick > with the menus. Would you please show us what this looks like? -- Dr Richard Stallman Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" In-Reply-To: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Resent-From: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 00:37:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Richard Stallman Cc: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 38696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38696.1576974972878 (code B ref 38696); Sun, 22 Dec 2019 00:37:01 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Dec 2019 00:36:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48950 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iipE8-0000E1-WD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 19:36:12 -0500 Received: from bongo.elm.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.212.21]:42353) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iipE3-0000Dp-90 for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 19:36:07 -0500 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ED0B140DB3; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 00:36:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a52.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-83-39.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.83.39]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8B759140E94; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 00:36:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a52.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Sun, 22 Dec 2019 00:36:02 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Bitter-Juvenile: 54a179c56638d6d6_1576974961973_3885775549 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1576974961973:207448782 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1576974961973 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a52.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a52.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD567F181; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 16:35:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=jidanni.org; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=jidanni.org; bh=DFn2wFZp/B6wiMCcOKW5uvUWFog=; b=l1iRVAjkhOvgE q8EM00utsrZK7CPotq9i+yH7adoWNF3giGzDT/JWn57OjpEePGWQZj5Wp46WxsUu pElEDXp+5rBQXMISy5daMQsu2KdgMTTvQ29LeX75iFF5454fBJePnhY8yWcEOgJ0 CReDBQ250eFvLicUmAxijNxSljgSCA= Received: from jidanni.org (1-170-80-182.dynamic-ip.hinet.net [1.170.80.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jidanni@jidanni.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a52.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AF13C7F0E4; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 16:35:58 -0800 (PST) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a52 From: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 08:35:54 +0800 Message-ID: <87fthdurh1.5.fsf@jidanni.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: 0 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrvdduiedgvdduucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpffftgfetoffjqffuvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefhvffufhffkfggtgesthdtredttddtjeenucfhrhhomhepnjjnnjcuffgrnhculfgrtghosghsohhnuceojhhiuggrnhhnihesjhhiuggrnhhnihdrohhrgheqnecukfhppedurddujedtrdektddrudekvdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghlohepjhhiuggrnhhnihdrohhrghdpihhnvghtpedurddujedtrdektddrudekvddprhgvthhurhhnqdhprghthheppeeruhhtfhdqkeerueerheeimhfphefnihehhegsveekreepucffrghnucflrggtohgsshhonhcuoehjihgurghnnhhisehjihgurghnnhhirdhorhhgqedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehjihgurghnnhhisehjihgurghnnhhirdhorhhgpdhnrhgtphhtthhopeefkeeileeiseguvggssghughhsrdhgnhhurdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> "RMS" == Richard Stallman writes: RMS> Would you please show us what this looks like? $ cat .emacs (custom-set-variables ;; custom-set-variables was added by Custom. ;; If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up, so be careful. ;; Your init file should contain only one such instance. ;; If there is more than one, they won't work right. ) (custom-set-faces ;; custom-set-faces was added by Custom. ;; If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up, so be careful. ;; Your init file should contain only one such instance. ;; If there is more than one, they won't work right. '(default ((t (:family "DejaVu Sans Mono" :foundry "PfEd" :slant normal :weight normal :height 218 :width normal))))) There is no way offered to "decompile" this into something that all those Emacs manuals talk about when introducing how to edit your .emacs file. The user is no longer in full control, but must maintain it via an interface (the menus.) From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> In-Reply-To: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Resent-From: arthur miller Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 03:36:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson , Richard Stallman Cc: "38696@debbugs.gnu.org" <38696@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 38696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38696.157698573016838 (code B ref 38696); Sun, 22 Dec 2019 03:36:01 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Dec 2019 03:35:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48998 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iis1h-0004NV-U8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 22:35:30 -0500 Received: from mail-oln040092073037.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.73.37]:18673 helo=EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iis1f-0004NH-Qx for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; 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Sun, 22 Dec 2019 17:06:01 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Dec 2019 17:05:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50170 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ij4fh-0001Te-N3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 12:05:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56079) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ij4ff-0001TR-3o for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 12:05:36 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45714) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ij4fZ-0004PK-Kc; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 12:05:29 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1551 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ij4fH-00034O-Po; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 12:05:15 -0500 Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:04:52 +0200 Message-Id: <837e2oz3yj.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <87fthdurh1.5.fsf@jidanni.org> References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <87fthdurh1.5.fsf@jidanni.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson > > Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 08:35:54 +0800 > Cc: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org > > >>>>> "RMS" == Richard Stallman writes: > > RMS> Would you please show us what this looks like? > > $ cat .emacs > (custom-set-variables > ;; custom-set-variables was added by Custom. > ;; If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up, so be careful. > ;; Your init file should contain only one such instance. > ;; If there is more than one, they won't work right. > ) > (custom-set-faces > ;; custom-set-faces was added by Custom. > ;; If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up, so be careful. > ;; Your init file should contain only one such instance. > ;; If there is more than one, they won't work right. > '(default ((t (:family "DejaVu Sans Mono" :foundry "PfEd" :slant normal :weight normal :height 218 :width normal))))) > > There is no way offered to "decompile" this into something that all > those Emacs manuals talk about when introducing how to edit your .emacs > file. custom-set-variables and custom-set-faces are documented in the ELisp manual, so, while the note about caution is in order (because not every user knows Lisp), there's nothing magical about the above, no more than some use of setq. > The user is no longer in full control, but must maintain it via an > interface (the menus.) Only if the user chooses not to be in control. From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 17:51:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: arthur miller , =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson , Richard Stallman Cc: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 38696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38696.157703700417981 (code B ref 38696); Sun, 22 Dec 2019 17:51:02 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Dec 2019 17:50:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50207 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ij5Mh-0004fx-Nl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 12:50:04 -0500 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:52476) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ij5Mf-0004fM-Cs for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 12:50:02 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xBMHnt1k139725; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 17:49:55 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2019-08-05; bh=c9O2D35SRar+oL3R8pDbwW/sD5AvLroKQ9J3hMkL0FA=; b=VAl+edp+5jOw/dv0cpV6+kan90/PVeJZocsEoZNDtxOsWb2Azx7YaE8ce0GILyTKP/Vt Ey+WF5ynxMfsHsYXFlDxBDKvs4ST65t4z9tdWkbSky43JBGXZ4PP/VyP5pHUP8keXgVq my1qTdplBg/QnV6o5UFwckPlYx8T1mzeVl9z3OZ4udYtpYolmh4GtwUgVbczvrDuRFCV 0UrERVwFiWCDvj8DugvIx/cv7q26/zCgzv4n3O+KwcP9BXdpbamFUKt2nGmABAl9ZqWB q+Zq/2Zckz095p6z4v+mDrEema+eaCM/EmzFwW4xHg/I96FPXfKAoqiIVLb6uA1Wz3Ha TQ== Received: from userp3030.oracle.com (userp3030.oracle.com [156.151.31.80]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2x1attbv7c-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 22 Dec 2019 17:49:55 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xBMHmKgG191871; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 17:49:55 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2x1vv76ght-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 22 Dec 2019 17:49:54 +0000 Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id xBMHnqTP017389; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 17:49:52 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 09:49:51 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4939.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9479 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1912220162 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9479 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1912220162 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) >> The user is no longer in full control, but must >> maintain it via an interface (the menus.) > > Actually it says "you should be careful". It does > not says you should never edit it. I don't think > you have reason to edit it by hand, especially if > you redirect customize saves to different file > then your init, but you certainly can if you wish > (and know what you are doing). The most important message about this, for users, is to let them know that this code is inserted and _updated (overwritten) automatically_. That's the _reason_ we warn users not to edit it. It's not so much because their edits might mess something up. It's that they need to be aware that editing it competes with automatic updating. If you edit it then you are fighting against Customize. If you edit it, and if you never use Customize (and no code you use ever uses Customize code), then, yes, the only potential problem is that you can mess things up for your future Emacs sessions. But that's not the likeliest scenario. The real, more likely problem is that you make a change to this code and later Customize overwrites your change - and you might not be aware of that. IMO, that's what this inserted comment is really about: letting you know that the code is updated automatically, and manual and automatic updating don't mix well - each can overwrite the other. =20 -------- Originalmeddelande -------- Fr=C3=A5n: =E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC Dan Jacobson = =20 Datum: 2019-12-22 01:37 (GMT+01:00)=20 Till: Richard Stallman =20 Kopia: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org=20 =C3=84mne: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up"=20 >>>>> "RMS" =3D=3D Richard Stallman writes: RMS> Would you please show us what this looks like? $ cat .emacs (custom-set-variables =C2=A0;; custom-set-variables was added by Custom. =C2=A0;; If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up, so be careful. =C2=A0;; Your init file should contain only one such instance. =C2=A0;; If there is more than one, they won't work right. =C2=A0) (custom-set-faces =C2=A0;; custom-set-faces was added by Custom. =C2=A0;; If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up, so be careful. =C2=A0;; Your init file should contain only one such instance. =C2=A0;; If there is more than one, they won't work right. =C2=A0'(default ((t (:family "DejaVu Sans Mono" :foundry "PfEd" :slant norm= al :weight normal :height 218 :width normal))))) There is no way offered to "decompile" this into something that all those Emacs manuals talk about when introducing how to edit your .emacs file. The user is no longer in full control, but must maintain it via an interface (the menus.) From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" In-Reply-To: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Resent-From: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 00:37:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman , arthur miller Received: via spool by 38696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38696.15770614076195 (code B ref 38696); Mon, 23 Dec 2019 00:37:01 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Dec 2019 00:36:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50383 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ijBiJ-0001br-EF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:36:47 -0500 Received: from bongo.elm.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.212.21]:55914) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ijBiH-0001bi-Cz for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:36:46 -0500 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C16AE0D5C; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 00:36:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a46.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-83-39.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.83.39]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B2BA8E0C3B; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 00:36:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a46.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Mon, 23 Dec 2019 00:36:44 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Attack-Cellar: 7c156167602509d3_1577061403970_3006186620 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1577061403969:1832552080 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1577061403969 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a46.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a46.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B364C80056; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 16:36:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=jidanni.org; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=jidanni.org; bh=RYwUzecsmsmD/vjlsKQx7UMgzj4=; b=khkYEvkuO4/JO B8MEOG5SByisd8eB0EIYAeH4FkU9S3ScvVIEf6557GJkytKgCuoAjbO4m3fZdMJg PdlCf3nC4w/M+P+bBkbbCfrYQAZDBOplB59uZ3PS+8E9PjvloUIRKRHFdHEzSD+H 6rZe7+RmsPPB9zSYA9EtOT5Zq9YM8w= Received: from jidanni.org (36-234-70-200.dynamic-ip.hinet.net [36.234.70.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jidanni@jidanni.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a46.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9C52C8005A; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 16:36:36 -0800 (PST) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a46 From: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 08:36:32 +0800 Message-ID: <87sglbg9nz.5.fsf@jidanni.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrvdduledgvdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpffftgfetoffjqffuvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephffvufhffffkgggtsehttdertddttdejnecuhfhrohhmpejnnjjnucffrghnucflrggtohgsshhonhcuoehjihgurghnnhhisehjihgurghnnhhirdhorhhgqeenucfkphepfeeirddvfeegrdejtddrvddttdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghlohepjhhiuggrnhhnihdrohhrghdpihhnvghtpeefiedrvdefgedrjedtrddvtddtpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpeeprehuthhfqdekreeureehiehmpfehnfhiheehsgevkeerpecuffgrnhculfgrtghosghsohhnuceojhhiuggrnhhnihesjhhiuggrnhhnihdrohhrgheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepjhhiuggrnhhnihesjhhiuggrnhhnihdrohhrghdpnhhrtghpthhtohepfeekieelieesuggvsggsuhhgshdrghhnuhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Warning or not, same .emacs file or not, the user still cannot touch it. Sure he can. But then for the rest of his life he had better not do any such saves from any menus. From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 02:59:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=A7=C2=A9=C2=8D=C3=A4=C2=B8=C2=B9=C3=A5=C2=B0=C2=BC?= Dan Jacobson Cc: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 38696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38696.157706989719809 (code B ref 38696); Mon, 23 Dec 2019 02:59:02 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Dec 2019 02:58:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50416 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ijDvF-00059R-CU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 21:58:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49716) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ijDvD-00059E-Kx for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 21:58:15 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:50749) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ijDv7-0003wM-Sn; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 21:58:09 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ijDv6-0007VM-Cx; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 21:58:08 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: <87fthdurh1.5.fsf@jidanni.org> References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <87fthdurh1.5.fsf@jidanni.org> Message-Id: Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 21:58:08 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > (custom-set-faces > ;; custom-set-faces was added by Custom. > ;; If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up, so be careful. > ;; Your init file should contain only one such instance. > ;; If there is more than one, they won't work right. > '(default ((t (:family "DejaVu Sans Mono" :foundry "PfEd" :slant normal :weight normal :height 218 :width normal))))) > There is no way offered to "decompile" this into something that all > those Emacs manuals talk about when introducing how to edit your .emacs > file. It isn't Lisp code. It is just data, and the bulk of it is a plist that is pretty obvious to edit. It would be useful to explain the three outer levels of list structure. A couple of lines of comment can explain that. -- Dr Richard Stallman Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" In-Reply-To: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Resent-From: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 03:30:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Richard Stallman Cc: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 38696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38696.157707176422766 (code B ref 38696); Mon, 23 Dec 2019 03:30:02 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Dec 2019 03:29:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50434 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ijEPL-0005v7-PC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 22:29:24 -0500 Received: from bongo.elm.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.212.21]:2821) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ijEPJ-0005uz-Jz for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 22:29:22 -0500 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 818D42C1AE2; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 03:29:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-87-40.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.87.40]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 129F82C1A7E; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 03:29:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Mon, 23 Dec 2019 03:29:20 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Chief-Eyes: 7c079c2f2c0a352f_1577071760285_611756189 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1577071760285:2088118591 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1577071760285 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A37A83326; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:29:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=jidanni.org; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=jidanni.org; bh=pcII7yyN4TXJPnR6VhB7EcCGv1Y=; b=JTldLjoAnGjgQ 9FT8k2aOh2sO7GI+38Qvhmx09+9xGdQqao/ZpWpuKcnakFX+/icuOlEMuKR5T8qk 2DQhe8Iu+2y+kAOjh0EEPtS23xBTb2AtS3bubQe51kp5vOD6Y/oAmNlOwSnoZVqC Cc/gqpGfvIgnQ5xd9xqFr4+HD/y8z4= Received: from jidanni.org (36-234-70-200.dynamic-ip.hinet.net [36.234.70.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jidanni@jidanni.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 871AA8331D; Sun, 22 Dec 2019 19:29:14 -0800 (PST) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a47 From: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <87fthdurh1.5.fsf@jidanni.org> Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 11:29:10 +0800 Message-ID: <87zhfjwwhl.5.fsf@jidanni.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: 0 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrvdduledgheejucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpffftgfetoffjqffuvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefhvffufhffkfggtgesthdtredttddtjeenucfhrhhomhepnjjnnjcuffgrnhculfgrtghosghsohhnuceojhhiuggrnhhnihesjhhiuggrnhhnihdrohhrgheqnecukfhppeefiedrvdefgedrjedtrddvtddtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphdphhgvlhhopehjihgurghnnhhirdhorhhgpdhinhgvthepfeeirddvfeegrdejtddrvddttddprhgvthhurhhnqdhprghthheppeeruhhtfhdqkeerueerheeimhfphefnihehhegsveekreepucffrghnucflrggtohgsshhonhcuoehjihgurghnnhhisehjihgurghnnhhirdhorhhgqedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehjihgurghnnhhisehjihgurghnnhhirdhorhhgpdhnrhgtphhtthhopeefkeeileeiseguvggssghughhsrdhgnhhurdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) You would also need to tell them how to clone it to a new variable that would be safe from competition the next time they use such menus. And emacs would need to know about this new variable, in order to run items attached to it. From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 04:14:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org, arthur.miller@live.com, jidanni@jidanni.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 38696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38696.157716083723159 (code B ref 38696); Tue, 24 Dec 2019 04:14:02 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2019 04:13:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51897 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ijba1-00061T-Bq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 23:13:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50899) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ijbZy-00061G-Tx for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 23:13:55 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:39074) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ijbZt-0005c3-3C; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 23:13:49 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ijbZr-0000XT-GX; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 23:13:47 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 22 Dec 2019 09:49:51 -0800 (PST)) References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 23:13:47 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > But that's not the likeliest scenario. The real, > more likely problem is that you make a change to > this code and later Customize overwrites your > change - and you might not be aware of that. We could make Customize detect hand-editing by looking at the value in .emacs and determining that it doesn't have a format Customize could ever write? Or we could the comment say, "If you want to edit this value by hand, delete this comment." Customize could interpret the absence of that comment as meaning the value has been hand-edited. Either way, Customize could then report a problem and offer a choice of (1) deleting the value in the file, or (2) quitting. -- Dr Richard Stallman Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 16:09:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: rms@gnu.org Cc: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org, arthur.miller@live.com, jidanni@jidanni.org Received: via spool by 38696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38696.15772037041173 (code B ref 38696); Tue, 24 Dec 2019 16:09:02 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2019 16:08:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52982 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ijmjQ-0000Ir-Gb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 11:08:24 -0500 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:41802) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ijmjO-0000Id-T7 for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 11:08:23 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xBOG3uIe062547; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 16:08:16 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2019-08-05; bh=a9VIiMbVdG96uf0NFobdAhUMzk/xmVY1zm007e7er8E=; b=TF8d+oAxQFob4bOKYDUNuHziWOz+10fo1N8bCEb/ARnqucH8ybv0IzW/gyLfEt2rUJSh kw7nzzo4u99g0odxUbHFlrLSwm0DJ3k0H0ghdfFwkxJl/F4LOdRfmrM6i1GkvjILLln2 /cWKForVu40Kyq+bw8ptmCs42r4ishneP8lxYOC0cqMWA0ssB/H3QwB1R7JvNEb3AgHd XHCDGKMHCfdtKuikdLUNZLULP/RjKa7FepRvt2wF0IMTMq/dQsJK/l1HUxLXRRRb1TR0 qO15JqNaiP9watGAWA2XxESADFZ5Hwb91LwxptFdKYc2dwc2QW4W6Y7o8HmmNeQ+COXe /w== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2x1c1qv6qh-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 24 Dec 2019 16:08:16 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xBOFxU06128582; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 16:08:16 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2x37te6bsy-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 24 Dec 2019 16:08:15 +0000 Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id xBOG8CeO021943; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 16:08:13 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <71ad22c1-0af2-4428-8d64-22e21f4b2a7b@default> Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 08:08:11 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4939.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9481 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=1 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1912240139 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9481 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=1 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1912240140 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > But that's not the likeliest scenario. The real, > > more likely problem is that you make a change to > > this code and later Customize overwrites your > > change - and you might not be aware of that. >=20 > We could make Customize detect hand-editing by looking at the value > in .emacs and determining that it doesn't have a format Customize > could ever write? >=20 > Or we could the comment say, "If you want to edit this value by hand, > delete this comment." Customize could interpret the absence of > that comment as meaning the value has been hand-edited. >=20 > Either way, Customize could then report a problem and offer a choice > of (1) deleting the value in the file, or (2) quitting. I guess you're proposing that, if a user edits what Customize puts in a user file (`custom-file' or init file), then Customize could/should try to detect that that has occurred. And then Customize could/should ask the user how to handle that situation. A priori that sounds complicated, and maybe error prone, to me. But maybe it's worth considering. My suggestion would be to just change the comment wording a bit, to make clear that future use of Customize might overwrite any manual changes you make to that code. IOW, state that clearly as a major reason _why_ you're advised not to edit the code. And as others have pointed out, future Customize use might not always be obvious, interactive use of `M-x customize-*' commands. --- I'd also suggest that the inserted comment, and the Emacs docs more generally, would do well to suggest/advise that users use `custom-file', to keep Customize-generated code separate from their init files. That's a good idea in general, IMO, and it would go a long way toward avoiding the problem of users editing such code, i.e., of users and Customize stomping on each other. --- I'd even suggest that if `custom-file' is undefined then Customize should immediately ask a user to define it, instead of just silently writing to a user's init file. At least, that could be done if Customize could be sure there's not already any Customize code in the init file. But if an init file already has some Customize code, then such a dialog becomes more delicate. Customize might need to just advise moving such existing code to the new `custom-file'. Or if, as you suggest, it could detect its own code then it could offer to move any such that's in the init file to a `custom-file'. From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 02:38:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org, arthur.miller@live.com, jidanni@jidanni.org Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 38696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38696.157724144424481 (code B ref 38696); Wed, 25 Dec 2019 02:38:01 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Dec 2019 02:37:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53206 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ijwY7-0006Mm-P7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 21:37:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36318) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ijwY6-0006MZ-7d for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 21:37:22 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:53839) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ijwY0-0005E0-Gn; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 21:37:16 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ijwXy-00040G-MJ; Tue, 24 Dec 2019 21:37:14 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman In-Reply-To: <71ad22c1-0af2-4428-8d64-22e21f4b2a7b@default> (message from Drew Adams on Tue, 24 Dec 2019 08:08:11 -0800 (PST)) References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <71ad22c1-0af2-4428-8d64-22e21f4b2a7b@default> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 21:37:14 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > A priori that sounds complicated, and maybe error > prone, to me. But maybe it's worth considering. I am not trying to insist. > My suggestion would be to just change the comment > wording a bit, to make clear that future use of > Customize might overwrite any manual changes you > make to that code. IOW, state that clearly as a > major reason _why_ you're advised not to edit the > code. I agree that would be an improvement. > I'd even suggest that if `custom-file' is > undefined then Customize should immediately ask > a user to define it, instead of just silently > writing to a user's init file. I think that would make Emacs usage a little more complicated for lots of users, and only a few would benefit. -- Dr Richard Stallman Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" In-Reply-To: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Resent-From: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 01:05:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Richard Stallman Cc: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org, arthur.miller@live.com, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 38696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38696.157732224812081 (code B ref 38696); Thu, 26 Dec 2019 01:05:02 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Dec 2019 01:04:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54789 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ikHZQ-00038n-Bv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 20:04:08 -0500 Received: from chocolate.birch.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.209.35]:6401) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ikHZO-00038b-3D for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 20:04:07 -0500 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B085A0165; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 01:04:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a27.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-196-67.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.196.67]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 04DC15A0231; Thu, 26 Dec 2019 01:04:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a27.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Thu, 26 Dec 2019 01:04:04 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Versed-Continue: 36f629045cf67bd1_1577322244270_3861164723 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1577322244270:2882414864 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1577322244270 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a27.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a27.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E4080138; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 17:03:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=jidanni.org; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=jidanni.org; bh=fvAK50TcjeW92P9SQeAmKwK7g/w=; b=OPjk0XcjbFtvv hOIPWE5+JTvNUSeor9rsm9veP4LLkJguvbVb+UPyhbDQEHcDXzwnGF6FhwbwnGJB h29grVPj8vv4BIxaLB+tIsyyIpO5UEhbCGyl5aY7hKcOrz/7mnvSv67SdSNNJh3m ckGmIZSZlLzsU3q5VQu8cP+IgGdtcU= Received: from jidanni.org (36-234-70-48.dynamic-ip.hinet.net [36.234.70.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jidanni@jidanni.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a27.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 08EE48014A; Wed, 25 Dec 2019 17:03:56 -0800 (PST) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a27 From: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <71ad22c1-0af2-4428-8d64-22e21f4b2a7b@default> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 09:03:52 +0800 Message-ID: <87k16joq2v.8.fsf@jidanni.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrvddvhedgvdekucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpffftgfetoffjqffuvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephffvufhffffkgggtsehttdertddttdejnecuhfhrohhmpejnnjjnucffrghnucflrggtohgsshhonhcuoehjihgurghnnhhisehjihgurghnnhhirdhorhhgqeenucfkphepfeeirddvfeegrdejtddrgeeknecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphdphhgvlhhopehjihgurghnnhhirdhorhhgpdhinhgvthepfeeirddvfeegrdejtddrgeekpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpeeprehuthhfqdekreeureehiehmpfehnfhiheehsgevkeerpecuffgrnhculfgrtghosghsohhnuceojhhiuggrnhhnihesjhhiuggrnhhnihdrohhrgheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepjhhiuggrnhhnihesjhhiuggrnhhnihdrohhrghdpnhhrtghpthhtoheprghrthhhuhhrrdhmihhllhgvrheslhhivhgvrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Actually the comment should say ;; Like it? Well perhaps you might want a version of it that you can ;; maintain by hand! Just use "M-x customize-decustomize" on that region of ;; code to get a human-friendly-readable version that you can instead ;; enhance on your own without needing menus to maintain it! (Or customize-decompile, or customize-deobfuscate or whatever.) From unknown Wed Sep 10 06:21:14 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#38696: "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it up" Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 10:17:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 38696 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson Cc: 38696@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org Received: via spool by 38696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B38696.159670900027927 (code B ref 38696); Thu, 06 Aug 2020 10:17:02 +0000 Received: (at 38696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Aug 2020 10:16:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53221 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k3cwy-0007G7-Ki for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Aug 2020 06:16:40 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:52084) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k3cww-0007AK-6Y for 38696@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Aug 2020 06:16:39 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID :In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=d84E0oHAVxbURIXtYlE/DC/hzfb+WhSTa5SbsgCNs48=; b=Fsr+tS7Uf3ZRcF8Wr/SfXPDe8E abl9Sw/K9zzCwmGPQHtZmDxxOONRkqh5tNJuqMgevaJZZH5bmgjadhzLmNV7mMrU7bSM3Uv/wwodu gCuhwhyz+JDIGXbVr3JMkgQ6XQu3X/+k8xViEiba7tg61eP2KINYeHqBlxinHYLPO/2E=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1k3cwn-0000Bf-K2; Thu, 06 Aug 2020 12:16:32 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 12:16:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87eewyr1f4.8.fsf@jidanni.org> ("=?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson"'s message of "Sat, 21 Dec 2019 08:02:23 +0800") Message-ID: <87r1skdqpv.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC?= Dan Jacobson writes: > Let's say the user wants to make the font bigger. > In emacs he goes into the menu bar and picks "Options" > "Set > Default Font", makes it bigger, and then chooses "Save Options", which > pastes so [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) =E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC Dan Jacobson writes: > Let's say the user wants to make the font bigger. > In emacs he goes into the menu bar and picks "Options" > "Set > Default Font", makes it bigger, and then chooses "Save Options", which > pastes some "custom-set" code into his .emacs file > that even contains a warning "If you edit it by hand, you could mess it u= p", > meaning for the rest of his life he should just play it safe and stick > with the menus. I think the consensus here was that it's fine the way it is, so I'm closing this bug report. --=20 (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 06 06:16:47 2020 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Aug 2020 10:16:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53224 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k3cx4-0007LD-TN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Aug 2020 06:16:47 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:52098) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k3cx2-0007Ez-M1 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Aug 2020 06:16:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=/eX/FGldKMmvHZpPHal0/Ega/FQCRF6uM/7dsXa6xN0=; b=Jz7JPaEoEXbwebBYh2ZhvilTFz sI/hcHqvDAaHo2g8FdV8QmbOJk4PJajtoFMzL3seBk9BwLiBc6kaWJrKPJMuLTVKbCtYIUZidSYg3 QFcTFa76+ohuDtFTgod9xqRRNwGqYtncOHHR1ERFvFY1m3KP0FeRl3uQksFrjDp9VKcY=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1k3cwu-0000Bm-W1 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 06 Aug 2020 12:16:39 +0200 Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 12:16:35 +0200 Message-Id: <87pn84dqpo.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #38696 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 38696 wontfix close 38696 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 38696 wontfix close 38696 quit