From unknown Wed Jun 18 00:25:34 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#38360 <38360@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#38360 <38360@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Retroarch might violate FSDG Reply-To: bug#38360 <38360@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 07:25:34 +0000 retitle 38360 Retroarch might violate FSDG reassign 38360 guix submitter 38360 Nicol=C3=B2 Balzarotti severity 38360 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 25 07:56:01 2019 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2019 12:56:01 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47820 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iZDuK-0005ST-IH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 07:56:00 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:49370) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iZDqd-0005JQ-9x for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 07:52:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51029) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iYsfU-0002px-D6 for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 09:15:17 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE,URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iYsfT-0006Wa-3p for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 09:15:16 -0500 Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]:40064) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iYsfS-0006WA-TQ for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 09:15:15 -0500 Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id b26so11327612ion.7 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 06:15:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=OuMwMEkvjXzA9DgB9ibkkgOxTUTmrn8MqKzCbdIln9s=; b=T0W48ugN60I3AUNERxihQEk7sA6s4mEikEmv6YkgY4GZ7uyD5KOGDusgk60DmQOHd8 /TA6C46ng3nBRKlk1Uhd3B89/TMn7CT85y/l6he0uU6X7d7Wm0Ln/4IleG77PE6aAdIP UPiEEb2lZXQdq05u95L2yZFY6awLCaKu3ZA/vjZm0nf5q3qUKjhldCQ9jAsXE2usUl7l KtYTFxKHHx3yTP7WKl8Gh3ueaJPcS6uGGlqsOskvYCdFOQEgTr2Gdn+KM0VCCO1rbPqS 5MixtTZu2y/BYzcJKeTo+W+r6IN7IJQcpvX0Hq0k5aaQeXaB/aIgeriFm+WuApaY3dDs 8Kxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=OuMwMEkvjXzA9DgB9ibkkgOxTUTmrn8MqKzCbdIln9s=; b=qQK7FftQoG69XilMSNLJqpx4VRHF7lkX3vqq3ez1Q/1m0ExJsUurFp5dTUz1/AxcJe KzS3bNc4KVsDM2unHZi44P7vwPP8yEyKHN5WrVHFAGPWXib9fEX7QtRMosa4ZZKJ97jx 5SjeuOAN6wM1FfsRSmDio/X8uLse0WILDcYsMxIFfTqCSkVIxKoa0jpBs93/UO/9GRd9 FoV0tVz2khmVXiq88pBkEnKptM6wsTABoPGOXLXcPZ7ggtFvi7QNaWLuHRNALNnVoRS1 wDRiSqMNiWxSHXZMtqR2oes6tdSJ1Wmb39h45LLXnwxyHBMvHfGQiTmXBQV9rnB2gHR4 8iNA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXBQ0ivzyRba2Lt2lOwLp44LcSe412GOgRZkLWiQE3EPZNDarKq hGSOXzoU3vbhH3cwmM+ZMvtEzp/Cz3kz13WcN/i82w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw/lhfOetzFJCtf4yTh+3QQpzywQwIczPEd5pEifBBKf+NBCSz82YLtth5B5uPhQ5dfoDM2V9aBXixNCBdmJlc= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9913:: with SMTP id x19mr16572507iol.46.1574604913404; Sun, 24 Nov 2019 06:15:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: =?UTF-8?Q?Nicol=C3=B2_Balzarotti?= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 15:15:01 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Retroarch might violate FSDG To: bug-guix@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000866e930598184635" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) --000000000000866e930598184635 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello guix! How I reported today on the IRC #guix channel: We might have a problem on how retroarch is packaged. I've never used it, tried just now. There's the "core download" section where it downloads "$core.so.zip". Those are .so files: .config/retroarch/cores/atari800_libretro.so: file format elf64-x86-64. I think we should either compile them and ship them or remove the download section or something. Also, when downloading cores there are no license info nckx provided this [1] as a useful link. It seems that some of the plugins are available for non-commercial projects only (so not compatible with the GPLv3, used by retroarch). It is something we should investigate and address, both for licensing issues and for safety (and because we do not want to ship precompiled binaries). Thanks, Nicol=C3=B2 [1] https://www.libretro.com/index.php/retroarch-license-violations --000000000000866e930598184635 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello guix!

How I reported t= oday on the IRC #guix channel:

We might have a problem on how retroarch is packaged. I've = never used it, tried just now. There's the "core download" se= ction where it downloads "$core.so.zip". Those are .so files: .co= nfig/retroarch/cores/atari800_libretro.so:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 file for= mat elf64-x86-64.
I think we should ei= ther compile them and ship them or remove the download section or something= .
Also, when downloading cores there a= re no license info

nckx provided this [1] as a= useful link. It seems that some of the plugins are available for non-comme= rcial projects only (so not compatible with the GPLv3, used by retroarch).<= /div>

It is something we should investigate and address,= both for licensing issues and for safety (and because we do not want to sh= ip precompiled binaries).

--000000000000866e930598184635-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 26 05:34:13 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2019 10:34:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50613 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iZYAe-00084a-SD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 05:34:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50992) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iZYAd-00084O-CP for 38360@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 05:34:11 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:53969) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iZYAY-0006w0-7Q; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 05:34:06 -0500 Received: from [2001:660:6102:320:e120:2c8f:8909:cdfe] (port=35844 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1iZYAX-0006L4-Nn; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 05:34:06 -0500 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: =?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=B2?= Balzarotti Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch might violate FSDG References: X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: 6 Frimaire an 228 de la =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=A9volution?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:34:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: (=?utf-8?Q?=22Nicol=C3=B2?= Balzarotti"'s message of "Sun, 24 Nov 2019 15:15:01 +0100") Message-ID: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 Cc: 38360@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Hello, Nicol=C3=B2 Balzarotti skribis: > We might have a problem on how retroarch is packaged. I've never used it, > tried just now. There's the "core download" section where it downloads > "$core.so.zip". Those are .so files: > .config/retroarch/cores/atari800_libretro.so: file format elf64-x86-6= 4. > I think we should either compile them and ship them or remove the download > section or something. We should definitely remove all binary files from the =E2=80=9Csource=E2=80= =9D tarballs. > Also, when downloading cores there are no license info That should be investigated, indeed, possibly looking at what Debian is doing. > nckx provided this [1] as a useful link. It seems that some of the plugins > are available for non-commercial projects only (so not compatible with the > GPLv3, used by retroarch). We don=E2=80=99t provide those plugins though, do we? Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 26 18:27:09 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2019 23:27:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53181 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iZkEf-00023U-JH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:27:09 -0500 Received: from mail-il1-f180.google.com ([209.85.166.180]:40611) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iZkEc-00022y-I1 for 38360@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:27:07 -0500 Received: by mail-il1-f180.google.com with SMTP id v17so15412316ilg.7 for <38360@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 15:27:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5lFBFfGi9jwtv/nK5DpE7AM7t7cSBY8Iyd0vKSVjY9k=; b=tbFTRx4wfwl3e5nwLQm26C4jVfZr7yv6tgTeQx9ToIAfijiC+42nzP4oKg6B8/0VsK Uys+vTzImTgY1hMbuKE9u7RmBN7d5qjAUiztXKPf2yQh1cIWtzHN9P/yRfgENwKSOntB KpsoF+rIGSlvRUAnLkoRSF8Wur2ZK+EqpQLzbwbRsiuxd6Y2MdHPCUF48E/g9opE5Os7 oXrqSekfpP97ujXlaNyQJTwg/32bpajxjWp3qoebWfRsB/fH2f3WoUth7193NezrvH6s +warUPkNfuNBkiPu5cIpVtlcv1JnFwsG95E1yNLqEcuJ7Dznt/6WqFSEGdXLTRFvauye y9IA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5lFBFfGi9jwtv/nK5DpE7AM7t7cSBY8Iyd0vKSVjY9k=; b=X9lMvRGSletGuBL+XbXK4ClTKES+2m/WcGIKoS7zrsqXPcLH+/61TUzE+0WDdG3FxO uIKfqyxXl6R/AfyyVvwIRVIeD6VD6/cgaE0peWBYfhVahDjATOYH2YcR07U8srUlkqmm viVonp4QKNojucRAxcQ3nURXhWuRqZxc5HtqQ21oBPVj7TLawzPOCNWLVuw8R2VikFrb cGwHT3tRJl1W60smNiGjnlR5QlHYZqK95xcI6luOVxnSnKZTtq4jXjneYImU9m6A2Z+w iN8ncEB/QvF8NS9Hzf4DmJ1tegrf0iKhy4XoodlHkToDtaxRnIPuIO7Hi3uiOpj0eIkE dG8w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU+e/3pgbtvoow6fnHZ9ThaehxcB3qbJ1qouIu5Ne8WntHZnij5 BpodTvhvnGtdEoskJ7xFMcBJfVzHB0bNXUB/mBGTkQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxmDiP4vhKNSIqbNg1PqsKYi4FsznCp+P2tiPABF9CngdRfCKMJNJl6T7mQ96PwjE2WPJ5JzlUyUQtyFLa0qy4= X-Received: by 2002:a92:39c7:: with SMTP id h68mr19480193ilf.46.1574810820775; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 15:27:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Nicol=C3=B2_Balzarotti?= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 00:26:48 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch might violate FSDG To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008f96c005984837d1" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 Cc: 38360@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0000000000008f96c005984837d1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ludo, thanks for your response. We don't provide them _directly_, but when loading the program the first option is "Load core". Then, first option again, is "Download core". Here you have a list of "proprietary" .so.zip downloads. Retroarch, as far as I understand, is encouraging the download of those programs, with no licensing information (see [1]). I don't know if this is ok or if we can patch it (hiding the "Download core" menu maybe?). Debian _does_ provide (from their package manager) some o the cores [2], two of them with the non-free tag. If we patch retroarch to hide the download menu, to make it functional we should also package some free cores. Thoughts? Thanks again, Nicol=C3=B2 [1] https://docs.libretro.com/guides/download-cores/ [2] https://packages.debian.org/stretch/games/ Il giorno mar 26 nov 2019 alle ore 11:34 Ludovic Court=C3=A8s ha scritto: > Hello, > > Nicol=C3=B2 Balzarotti skribis: > > > We might have a problem on how retroarch is packaged. I've never used i= t, > > tried just now. There's the "core download" section where it downloads > > "$core.so.zip". Those are .so files: > > .config/retroarch/cores/atari800_libretro.so: file format > elf64-x86-64. > > I think we should either compile them and ship them or remove the > download > > section or something. > > We should definitely remove all binary files from the =E2=80=9Csource=E2= =80=9D tarballs. > > > Also, when downloading cores there are no license info > > That should be investigated, indeed, possibly looking at what Debian is > doing. > > > nckx provided this [1] as a useful link. It seems that some of the > plugins > > are available for non-commercial projects only (so not compatible with > the > > GPLv3, used by retroarch). > > We don=E2=80=99t provide those plugins though, do we? > > Thanks, > Ludo=E2=80=99. > --0000000000008f96c005984837d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ludo, thanks for your response.

We don't provide them _directly_, but when loading the program t= he first option is "Load core". Then, first option again, is &quo= t;Download core". Here you have a list of "proprietary" .so.= zip downloads. Retroarch, as far as I understand, is encouraging the downlo= ad of those programs, with no licensing information (see [1]).=C2=A0 I don&= #39;t know if this is ok or if we can patch it (hiding the "Download c= ore" menu maybe?).

Debian _does_ provide (fro= m their package manager) some o the cores [2], two of them with the non-fre= e tag.
If we patch retroarch to hide the download menu, to make i= t functional we should also package some free cores.

Thoughts?

Thanks again,
Nicol=C3=B2



Il giorno mar 26 nov 2019 alle ore 11:34 Ludovic Court=C3= =A8s <ludo@gnu.org= > ha scritto:
Hello,

Nicol=C3=B2 Balzarotti <anothersms@gmail.com> skribis:

> We might have a problem on how retroarch is packaged. I've never u= sed it,
> tried just now. There's the "core download" section wher= e it downloads
> "$core.so.zip". Those are .so files:
> .config/retroarch/cores/atari800_libretro.so:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0file = format elf64-x86-64.
> I think we should either compile them and ship them or remove the down= load
> section or something.

We should definitely remove all binary files from the =E2=80=9Csource=E2=80= =9D tarballs.

> Also, when downloading cores there are no license info

That should be investigated, indeed, possibly looking at what Debian is
doing.

> nckx provided this [1] as a useful link. It seems that some of the plu= gins
> are available for non-commercial projects only (so not compatible with= the
> GPLv3, used by retroarch).

We don=E2=80=99t provide those plugins though, do we?

Thanks,
Ludo=E2=80=99.
--0000000000008f96c005984837d1-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 26 21:09:33 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Nov 2019 02:09:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53250 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iZmlp-00085c-C4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:09:33 -0500 Received: from mail-pf1-f182.google.com ([209.85.210.182]:38934) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iZmln-00085M-A3 for 38360@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:09:32 -0500 Received: by mail-pf1-f182.google.com with SMTP id x28so10164261pfo.6 for <38360@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:09:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:date :mime-version:user-agent:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SdZfZQ2+wOQtxNVzJckMIAU1Z2yWSA/oxjM/J0kkx5c=; b=NgtUfR3LzeL/EQTCvHlKoZn8VJe+bgg01R2bhhk1gHFpCUoP9mA/tio9r2exyWLboP +QvjcdO/ZFgyn6Ht3pVT9q7gSq3aO9NmZI8DbZh7mY/El7znyU7UegSGO4kg53RLHxx2 TZ6T4dYeWa5h09L+ancKgQSQDs2V0RxCLAURJ1sB21MIDjDR/qwPjPo3DmMQJLea5Cqo 9OAFTx6zm5ke7hvq5foWjh0wTap/DQxNyotgppkfU68xOzejQ9xyBFWjSzUIKakidSKg kohUVcDivUbPyAYm0rorjVSslAz3G8jjC5UBXdw1X5pwiPgQVQm1/cHHOH+4km5x1GE1 FdiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:in-reply-to :references:date:mime-version:user-agent:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SdZfZQ2+wOQtxNVzJckMIAU1Z2yWSA/oxjM/J0kkx5c=; b=iN+hPUJb1YWcoB7xyMDbeK1XMG4N0PNOofNKldB5CkPX6d7sh8RU0pmQVhN7GNgOJ3 3Yar3cVu43dy7Q6G8gLOofkxoOTSOaMT6HjGboH14axjlnQJWFEyFXzc5lejMp0diOqY fz2oBkmfdmOZ16mTUA42cWId9nRy47nNMb3DpgOxpOfLhCRhzZ+bRV+/8Py6MT4JsMnj aNfInYWeH/aEFzklJWgBY36uR5spAEMTosejuywKmKneUNa5RULkURoLdadFZ3U5UweI 0bkPBEeoieHfIEu5tEmHhKgBRqyHUncOSoZO67PsSOvCV1Q5/TYNZVyKedP36XFB+NCP ceEw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVlND/StcHIbMX4JhlCgHQHpwRAN2nsDI6WlB5v16qH7JtBQoBJ KqgK2n3ATlfCBRNSdfVvk9k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxVeu8CPbxYkiR2luanzm/O7eWIrJd/68e/cV6Z/k1BpZpUTeqV8ZZMm0JfqpQMRqxzzxqR0A== X-Received: by 2002:a63:5104:: with SMTP id f4mr1975367pgb.192.1574820565514; Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from piranhaplant.local ([199.68.53.171]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id o8sm3705561pjs.6.2019.11.26.18.09.24 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:09:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch might violate FSDG From: Jesse Gibbons To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Nicol=F2?= Balzarotti , Ludovic =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Court=E8s?= In-Reply-To: References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:09:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Evolution 3.30.5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 Cc: 38360@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On Wed, 2019-11-27 at 00:26 +0100, Nicolò Balzarotti wrote: > Hi Ludo, thanks for your response. > > We don't provide them _directly_, but when loading the program the first > option is "Load core". Then, first option again, is "Download core". Here > you have a list of "proprietary" .so.zip downloads. Retroarch, as far as I > understand, is encouraging the download of those programs, with no > licensing information (see [1]). I don't know if this is ok or if we can > patch it (hiding the "Download core" menu maybe?). > > Debian _does_ provide (from their package manager) some o the cores [2], > two of them with the non-free tag. I can confirm that snes9x is nonfree because it is only for non-commercial use. We should at least patch that out before the cores are available. I don't know about the other one. Since retroarch offers a third-party repository to download nonfree shared libraries, we should blacklist it in order for GuixSD to remain FSDG compliant. > If we patch retroarch to hide the download menu, to make it functional we > should also package some free cores. I don't know how retroarch works. What else would we need to patch out of or into it so it recognizes the packaged cores? > > Thoughts? 1. I think I can (eventually) compile an alist of cores, source locations, licenses, and descriptions, but I won't be able to do that until December. Anyone want to beat me to it? 2. After we have an alist for each of these cores, we can quickly generate some code to start packaging them, hopefully all at once. It will probably be faster than adding them on demand. I'm guessing we would want them in emulators.scm correct? 3. When we have some cores packaged, we can work on making retroarch recognize them and not try to download its own binaries. I propose this order because I don't think I'm alone in wanting to keep retroarch usable during this process, and it will be easier to adapt retroarch after we have some cores packaged. > Thanks again, > Nicolò > > > [1] https://docs.libretro.com/guides/download-cores/ > [2] https://packages.debian.org/stretch/games/ > > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 27 15:48:37 2019 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Nov 2019 20:48:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56267 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ia4Em-0006Sr-RG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 15:48:37 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:39855) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ia4El-0006Sk-Ok for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 15:48:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56857) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ia4Ek-0003kQ-Gz for bug-guix@gnu.org; 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Wed, 27 Nov 2019 21:48:14 +0100 References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> User-agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.1 From: Arne Babenhauserheide To: bug-guix@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch might violate FSDG In-reply-to: Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 21:48:10 +0100 Message-ID: <877e3lkpv9.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:3IsH0t7m8CQ7hBn6iRRpNQESrPs9a7s/vkQtEPs/5aSc1c7H2Ji VpateyNbdIWOabMB6arPTzQclAckcTc4ZS5LoLavcpjbBt8mNB/34kuoWySWJjeuQm6cbc6 NUQbBZq8YZiGqWyH7qx6GQ0fWQK8mykOpP3uHEusGRT7XzeNXFxMyChuUiM3wNYqpUK5KsW Ohbvqz8jqQfY/4/vqFmVw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:znUFHeBWNQI=:pfrIIMNd6gNTvoTdnKI6K8 gw81yp6Vr5WjVbyf3PsmCUocJGVjEg3vsjOCF+gdkw4hhZCSX/KJgtPVbHDvL4Oj6TC7X0nGU 1U5dMaS4DPp9FtcPmpZqgZ89s8z0zrH4AJMVCA7cW8VXZz2AJzH+zj1kT8ZhiQcd93SsTFsuk d6jl+sO8Ha1JZi2jCmHBEgZl/Rg1w02tGPwDz5nVtEKo92HOGP3Js5hUbDhokIF8fVwau7Dvy f0D99kATs8zcYDtSDqUZ6e51EfXDkmHhl50nO+C4hZXkQ0ElbuA/ZHWR9x7YsnlxAwp3Vel9U IbjnDzwuBCsm5g1FI5u7fEIUNGXgAQtuGCPNtqMZfSOuEjANxaRTsUslCyWB95roJCEVSIpmP I1Ni1N4B45XwrWErTRka1cWpxo8aPG4fs9wW+1EdMZ8AGC8AS4RlHnrV1uThZtqKLdBtZWzP5 7COmgPgTUQGo6wcwQI5j9tWyrPQMhTlTIS3gHk0hWr6lgy4YsvZaQlegq2AmNfYPEbAIXHuoc NaNsWeuvszrorq2du1OjMn3okH7Se3dgeDGtCeo/z8qyDYFdKWZqXeQkVm6CLd+1254x4cs/m ZS/mWDJ5+NB15MD8ItiF1Vd+aAqsZ5M3KLez7tNhIcjGw5SD4GF57l2cPq55zS6gb9pXbXYyk 5JaPmBneZnk6arBifgMblszquCr0xQU9Pg4ppv/zHW9F/zB1P89/2eKQKGbSavxZsRPigb42W B9FwYs4XWAPh5Nq7mRe/GJ0BbUhf3a3whv5mYVzMhSNrP5JymLPuV43urjwe+dzvXbrN1UAay hRI3mGcGlByK6Lw6Fzaury+5bi4DWjMNiDO6sH1k82GCP+6YUfBQ1Cu6SCQEW5842v79S/CD+ Ahy5aXn4uMa+m9mJcy4bxeUb9KGmFu9beaR5NA8vshlUX4tl/sr/TquxTn0Ws3OlyFdaRLfim 7xqc3tOaVP/CgA5Vi1oU3VFDYCTcsgvyiIW1A2vcgbU4gmvywmaxf22kHxfejfQzpUbLZB3F3 KBd4YCR9n13qLuqwz/TeCHK1kluMXhwXV0zOCW3pxxOn8jz8s+rywJFK2HPK9C+B+OZrgPGvt 0tAFmKgp8FAfGbL86BLZiMKzyDe0dxHNWCl+3PNHzD/VmhwjlR2jntI+KOCJO+KiCcuhW/TiO BVJv0jTC0qbCunFLKMsBDToqpLFMmljkyubRY0bv6lK9l5OJ6GeQFzBYGaQQIX7v9Z2khq8Pe Vw6OYB1/z31EpnMUP5P74KSQR135dBaZIl5Ercw== X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 212.227.17.11 X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= , 38360@debbugs.gnu.org, =?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=B2?= Balzarotti X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jesse Gibbons writes: > On Wed, 2019-11-27 at 00:26 +0100, Nicol=C3=B2 Balzarotti wrote: > I can confirm that snes9x is nonfree because it is only for non-commercial > use. We should at least patch that out before the cores are available. I > don't know about the other one. Aren=E2=80=99t we overblocking here? This is not a case of a program restri= cted to push someone into proprietary software, but a case of a program restricted to not-for-profit for everybody. It is a similar case as allowing to ship GPLv3 software in a ROM without the option to modify it, as long as no one is able to modify it on that medium, including the propagator. In the case of snes9x no one is able to monetize the software, including the creators, because many people have a stake in the non-commercial clause, but the software is freely modifiable and you can share it non-commercially. It is also not advertised (I just tried) but simply one in a long list of possible cores. A very long list. And you have to actively do the online-lookup. We=E2=80=99re not restricting software which displays non-free online comics either. Installing the fastest and most compatible free software cores by default (pre-installed) would minimize the effect of cores bound to non-commercial use being available online without restricting the users in using RetroArch =E2=80=94 and it would make retroarch more convenient to= use. Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl3e4Q0ACgkQE++NRSQD w+tXZA/9Fiq1OKyVcI73WoIGtJevr0+gCWQp9WUQ29y45FTQTt8g7owpnH8YduO8 SZzO9Uh18Cn8F/Xg55Iu65Rm/CfeSO/pJbUxHh4S4lWxoP7mw/TSsKNPew93G4++ z50T4CdH8WOH0kbbYtkAgRvb19kaTUku/JQ9dFP0oSKfPF+sQRX0XHWRjOLdhOP1 A9btJwWYmE+lZa06TKgbQWYtkDY9e4/EjPGOILF/qPNOKR98fL7u4Ljd0QhcybmD 9HZkOeIw1lqrcmspCICm0KxNYCqXsS0azidgHXbF2/A++/jSYoAKkKRPQZYqf0G4 qttPngQB3o0hmaIiVJpxnEycjk0lS78DrIxfVY3Th3QFoVew3/+LODyG4lKsEsgL edZVEkijwD4bxn/QAkEmEnSdZDK6NAIINIv1fxVL8KxJqDdERLuEzxwNniPTzO5B UyacOTRumuCQzW8IIOK86Hzi72RpM+OqAPPvB9RN3dHJj+KJOiWsnSiV83fiVSU2 ZyesKSuYI68Ter22GYatHJ6bWmgAXSUhy+4CuE/7ehMD6FUAtQaey7psCGUR9C+I a6bGuRA8jcwbokQvDALSoCynxSFuwviQxPIzHX012/ueCkrXGR7gsuOMVe+Ql6g+ mxKYV8pXwQKU13CuU9Wr+lTU1//iGkqjpDEkVzoTwAKWIjMsDLaIswQBAQgAHRYh BN0ovebZh1yrzkqLHdzPDbMLwQVIBQJd3uENAAoJENzPDbMLwQVI6OkD/A01/aMJ faW+qFVUIlnM7DIdniYtGHwjtK72pRHtVBn8W+G40oV57h1IPowux/8PpBqsZ9zJ 3HlJ3jXh7PiHNrLTVulJlhiOJp8qijuaF+fo1bTzKmDczI05HjsVLWz+h7K//Yyh I7VpEgXhKygS6UIixr4La43r7fOSuj/gYQwq =L675 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 27 19:02:37 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Nov 2019 00:02:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56397 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ia7GW-0004vk-U3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:02:37 -0500 Received: from tobias.gr ([80.241.217.52]:47796) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ia7GS-0004vW-Kp for 38360@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:02:35 -0500 Received: by tobias.gr (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 1f2a2b6e for <38360@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 00:02:28 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=tobias.gr; h=from:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type; s=2018; i=me@tobias.gr; bh=j7Qu1JRzk4muO1EXlkxFhd gD+VhwsyzTHUzyEpeeops=; b=n9y+QsrEn4aTFnMJmpn0UxDBSQuzArRWqENF6a uwFzNZf0iFkVIcpQ134z8MIfEpmmszqIz429iU6j8qGUt/DFPIHJgxKwVo+C0bsr mlr4N5I6sOzWfmzhddbaAwPKsAKrYXdPC6fVlnuLzPGAeLLDFQPisLDZZ6Ocf8GH NmgTflr6M42CT3U1N5LdQNxTNGO4+SFpo/Xv1KwFxP6UUyBQd204vLukvWHK92+h r50I+Ny2yWui7w6QvsacyWtuoxdgsLIYrCP7uhJs9PnmGkidDhdJs7U7/WwNAVoo DdVxCHTswWjMDatJIM3wZtRAK+8ajUzMn6nJgY9+LpdOdr8A== Received: by submission.tobias.gr (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id fddbc49d (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO) for <38360@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 00:02:27 +0000 (UTC) From: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice To: 38360@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch does violate FSDG References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> <877e3lkpv9.fsf@web.de> In-reply-to: <877e3lkpv9.fsf@web.de> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 01:02:26 +0100 Message-ID: <874kyoamwd.fsf@nckx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guix, This is not about Schr=C3=B6dinger's proprietary-until-proven-innocent=20 binary. The Updater includes at least two cores explicitly marked=20 as non-free in Debian: libretro-genesisplusgx libretro-snes9x Disabling the Updater seems like an open & shut case to me. This is a shame, because I think these non-commercial clauses are=20 silly and legally void. Core authors can't place arbitrary=20 restrictions on derivative works of a GPL3 project.=20 Unfortunately, that obvious fact is for a court to point out, and=20 until then we must act as if it makes any sense. Arne, to address your last point first: Arne Babenhauserheide =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > It is also not advertised (I just tried) but simply one in a=20 > long list > of possible cores. A very long list. And you have to actively do=20 > the > online-lookup. For the purpose of this (FSDG) discussion, that's exactly what=20 =E2=80=98advertised=E2=80=99 means. I install Retroarch with Guix. When I run Retroarch, it prods me=20 to (literally) =E2=80=98use the Updater if available=E2=80=99. When I do t= hat, I=20 can select from many cores, at least two of them non-free. There is no way for me to know this important fact; I have to type=20 the name of the core into a search engine and dig, possibly deep=20 (not everyone knows the awesome power of a Debian copyright file=20 :-). You're not required to agree with any of the above, but Guix must. > We=E2=80=99re not restricting software which displays non-free online=20 > comics > either. Indeed, that would be against our stated goal of user freedom. Comics aren't software so don't count, but take Linux-Libre: the=20 fact that it refuses to load non-free firmware supplied by the=20 user is a *bug*, and even upstream acknowleges this. IceCat is=20 another obvious example. Same with Retroarch: if the user has a non-free core Guix's=20 Retroarch must, IMPO, run it. The difference is that at no point do Linux-Libre or IceCat ask me=20 to =E2=80=98visit our cool firmware shoppe!=E2=80=99. Indeed, the FF =E2= =80=98Get New=20 Add-ons=E2=80=99 button that directly advertises non-free software is=20 disabled for that reason. > Aren=E2=80=99t we overblocking here? This is not a case of a program=20 > restricted > to push someone into proprietary software, but a case of a=20 > program > restricted to not-for-profit for everybody. It's just as bad for the same reason. Like proprietary licences,=20 this one restricts redistribution *and* use of the software: =E2=80=9CPermission to use, copy, modify and/or distribute Snes9x in=20 both binary and source form, for non-commercial purposes, is hereby granted=20 without fee [=E2=80=A6] Snes9x is freeware for PERSONAL USE only.=E2=80=9D That violates a fundamental software freedom (#0: the freedom to=20 run the software as you wish, for any purpose). Contrast this with the GPL, which places zero restrictions on use=20 =E2=80=94 I don't even have to share the software or my improvements with=20 anyone! > It is a similar case as allowing to ship GPLv3 software in a ROM=20 > without > the option to modify it, as long as no one is able to modify it=20 > on that > medium, including the propagator. I don't see any similarities. With any GPL3 software, I am always=20 allowed to copy the software and do with it what I want, no matter=20 the underlying storage at some point in time. Kind regards, T (not a lawyer but talks to them at parties when no one else=20 will) G-R --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEfo+u0AlEeO9y5k0W2Imw8BjFSTwFAl3fDpIACgkQ2Imw8BjF STzObhAAiEAVdk7LQO4jyErEniolP6KtHHiXisr477gOaO8i9ek5EDcDRjdIWnMi X9fLfROiSuThCODfJiYQE8JAc0DoESAmLDwPvwK+GAQBNbX2zZegRFyLwOYBF5cX 5sk56FgvslxNuKRHRxhuIPyy3abGUQf0yeW6o3RWSor5UhtC//hiNIBqdQVDjseQ 874ZrTAxq/IzkEflnOppYFXHHhJQGDZYQtfhhje0/DlVXWel4+udDQN7Dm8mkFSh 9MPllrLsBIl1yUSHcXqHzD/7eUvXUJF3mveEbc+kbYBz/xHaP5pYBFmA3SjprWeF j6i8ZUT3om15cXsYTMXgYaxFM/Nlkb6zmuQk41MiXO5ocQhNDYtvohLw3FGREM3o 5vRmmmRVcSsAdXM5r4Fx2pTm0ABlO+sUOeFbT5UjDi6wWQw3IzJCfYWnkK3rK5hy 4MEQlDjXcu0osLI0/CHnd5d+LeIvwA226EPWwNXDdXwVp3gYEpok6s0r0408nyhp 9A9GvTOK+MscSNxHvK3F3FJgqmptLxNCR/uxInIJZyvOaKn1rSpO7xEQn6KI4xed mJ4ao+pLxdhPCvtUYCWSJgH4Dn0D1bqEi8Fxu8WsgMe7DyvBkM6ytAsBS47Ggsrw lbu692IZBvR/W531ehfp2d56f/Ey/gyGJL3Sj1ysF4LioiqznCc= =g7+F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 27 19:35:35 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Nov 2019 00:35:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56438 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ia7mQ-0005oa-TJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:35:35 -0500 Received: from mail-il1-f174.google.com ([209.85.166.174]:39025) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ia7mO-0005oL-UY for 38360@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:35:33 -0500 Received: by mail-il1-f174.google.com with SMTP id a7so22652929ild.6 for <38360@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 16:35:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hb49NF8olWbob5ngFp2JQbvIpLDHshjZjk6plRC2zwU=; b=YyrrwUWUCkLDgrojd40PGCuBGneTE/oGdBND8TQU9rB0ZZDW2U4cM6r0mFQGo+TLmz Ft0cX/+T2FdI2oaLQz580mWa6dYHpFe3IA1bar37ZD1ZJSw2nUfndROwbFjTBv3EkL+n XzkUM5Oh3/gIYDg09AYl9Xh+uVRX54jbF6Nz+FXpcsKliKDVAyb7mnk4qQF9kMvEWJ/c WY/Iv0Yiqot+FiMTVWw/hwF+YfqwfATKowIXAEtSTQZM+N24hm/H63Y876bn7SvUfTgi sWfvjR8cNEu3v7fiLYYudII+UcFENlr1S4pjpG/NisvZt2FPgMU7akkmteCV2MCjDoci WxDA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hb49NF8olWbob5ngFp2JQbvIpLDHshjZjk6plRC2zwU=; b=p3Iku5gfpgCajC6fTZTPB5P+ixNPCFvbcn70sO9wpHI26BEyJtChXj4olsHTTQRWJy QHaX6gtfcRxPTrLanCOYmepyabpYLgQTpH9f/eD4eJf0swUTLxjMZrBWgU/h8SSh251a qUwj/3I0QJqz+ULmrGxoa15bJFhfBMvm6wwFnGXVLVCh0Le6HqQBN3gQVAsF+dMOREmF y0qknc5HJM9QVaiE2UrrB05WoVt0f4ZLa2taLqGns1Ncw3DzFay3d1wvXnfZ528EBC9d BKCKzrseYzv9OKn2wRvIyhhM0CCxYf3pV+Jy9/NXgSkB2FHp78fU8M7Z4ap5XVxMRcCM IU8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXGQjFkDrUN5p2dPC8fALPek423oWxZupFTQUGYJK9x2dLDQG1A bIVX0Qoa/uBWqj6fMD8vJkgTtlml/X5HCix5wWw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxCtqE7ZnveMM8lnvylI6tr5osfVtokDoQXS8HC/IK5EPzSQgB8ALi92XTQL4w1/UvxK7gvCbS/3Knvu8l28x0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:cd3:: with SMTP id c19mr48083518ilj.266.1574901327251; Wed, 27 Nov 2019 16:35:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> <877e3lkpv9.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <877e3lkpv9.fsf@web.de> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Nicol=C3=B2_Balzarotti?= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 01:35:15 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch might violate FSDG To: Arne Babenhauserheide Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002aef0505985d4a37" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= , bug-guix@gnu.org, 38360@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0000000000002aef0505985d4a37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Il giorno mer 27 nov 2019 alle ore 21:48 Arne Babenhauserheide < arne_bab@web.de> ha scritto: > > Jesse Gibbons writes: > > On Wed, 2019-11-27 at 00:26 +0100, Nicol=C3=B2 Balzarotti wrote: > > I can confirm that snes9x is nonfree because it is only for > non-commercial > > use. We should at least patch that out before the cores are available. = I > > don't know about the other one. > > Aren=E2=80=99t we overblocking here? This is not a case of a program rest= ricted > to push someone into proprietary software, but a case of a program > restricted to not-for-profit for everybody. > This is, by (some) definition, non free. > It is a similar case as allowing to ship GPLv3 software in a ROM without > the option to modify it, as long as no one is able to modify it on that > medium, including the propagator. > > In the case of snes9x no one is able to monetize the software, including > the creators, because many people have a stake in the non-commercial > clause, but the software is freely modifiable and you can share it > non-commercially. > > It is also not advertised (I just tried) but simply one in a long list > of possible cores. A very long list. And you have to actively do the > online-lookup. > > We=E2=80=99re not restricting software which displays non-free online com= ics > either. > Comics aren't software. Free as in Freedom can apply only to software, AFAI= K > Installing the fastest and most compatible free software cores by > default (pre-installed) would minimize the effect of cores bound to > non-commercial use being available online without restricting the users > in using RetroArch =E2=80=94 and it would make retroarch more convenient = to use. > If I understand correctly (i.e. shipping free cores with our retroarch distribution, while still allowing non-free software download from the software), I half-way agree with you. However, IMO, we should not encourage the use of non free software, at all. Those non-free cores available in one click, and a user might not even know that 1. s/he is downloading some kind of software and 2. that this software is non-free (no license details). I was upset in discovering that I downloaded a non-free core, and I realized just because of the ".so.zip" name. If upstream they change the name to "core.zip", future users might not even understand what they are doing. Also, it might even happen that they will share non-opensource plugins in the future. I don't know and I don't think it is fair. Finally, in a purely reproducible interest, having random software downloaded is just bad. Let me know what do you think, Nicol=C3=B2 > > Best wishes, > Arne > -- > Unpolitisch sein > hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein > ohne es zu merken > --0000000000002aef0505985d4a37 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Il giorno mer 27 nov 2019 alle ore 21:48 Arne= Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@web.de> ha scritto:
jgibbons2357@gmail.com> writes:
> On Wed, 2019-11-27 at 00:26 +0100, Nicol=C3=B2 Balzarotti wrote:
> I can confirm that snes9x is nonfree because it is only for non-commer= cial
> use. We should at least patch that out before the cores are available.= I
> don't know about the other one.

Aren=E2=80=99t we overblocking here? This is not a case of a program restri= cted
to push someone into proprietary software, but a case of a program
restricted to not-for-profit for everybody.
This is, b= y (some) definition, non free.


It is a similar case as allowing to ship GPLv3 software in a ROM without the option to modify it, as long as no one is able to modify it on that
medium, including the propagator.

In the case of snes9x no one is able to monetize the software, including the creators, because many people have a stake in the non-commercial
clause, but the software is freely modifiable and you can share it
non-commercially.

It is also not advertised (I just tried) but simply one in a long list
of possible cores. A very long list. And you have to actively do the
online-lookup.

We=E2=80=99re not restricting software which displays non-free online comic= s
either.
Comics aren't software. Free as in Freedom= can apply only to software, AFAIK


Installing the fastest and most compatible free software cores by
default (pre-installed) would minimize the effect of cores bound to
non-commercial use being available online without restricting the users
in using RetroArch =E2=80=94 and it would make retroarch more convenient to= use.
=C2=A0
If I understand correctly (i.e.= shipping free cores with our retroarch distribution, while still allowing = non-free software download from the software), I half-way agree with you. H= owever, IMO, we should not encourage the use of non free software, at all. = Those non-free cores available in one click, and a user might not even know= that 1. s/he is downloading some kind of software and 2. that this softwar= e is non-free (no license details). I was upset in discovering that I downl= oaded a non-free core, and I realized just because of the ".so.zip&quo= t; name. If upstream they change the name to "core.zip", future u= sers might not even understand what they are doing. Also, it might even hap= pen that they will share non-opensource plugins in the future. I don't = know and I don't think it is fair.
Finally, in a purely repro= ducible interest, having random software downloaded is just bad.
=

Let me know what do you think,
Nicol=C3=B2

Best wishes,
Arne
--
Unpolitisch sein
hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein
ohne es zu merken
--0000000000002aef0505985d4a37-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 28 03:06:15 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Nov 2019 08:06:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56555 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iaEoZ-00027R-Gd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 03:06:15 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:60187) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iaEoS-000278-SQ for 38360@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 03:06:12 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1574928359; bh=8dMkEMg4V1E3+CkrpG1LUCyscTb/pSm3YDXJnWyWKP8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=pFnIdmqO1s2uLKf4FvsfJFk2GN2i12wetxwjOh2jkaLqv8l9DuMlUY2AZsl/87MB1 iuVQ2NuzBKiYA8CkzFeq8dDwDz9ZxtzSf+FQoRuD6TJzhfElezo5yDOozbe1dS/Ig1 irw2R6Y5dth9T5Lb6zy/dzllfmmFtlBNAB3MUT5s= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from fluss ([80.136.28.233]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb103 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M8Qtq-1heXYa3k4w-00w0lc; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:05:59 +0100 References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> <877e3lkpv9.fsf@web.de> User-agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.1 From: Arne Babenhauserheide To: =?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=B2?= Balzarotti Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch might violate FSDG In-reply-to: Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:05:51 +0100 Message-ID: <87eexs2zog.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:UVhFGsxdHLe5ix3uPHobwYL35Zm2P/wid6SORNzu5VyQp0WhNQ3 vSMGYMVKIEhc2gbqV3NhXV7gLSK1WvLSc0ui4w1XP71DuwXAvnQ+ePKAYgllFxeJV+e2vCH Pi+nFpzS/QIWARmE+V8meNDwSzfOjoN1APpBHBVD57+Pu44RlBUnjeLV5QGazydheoWgRUI FcHZfbln/sXz9k0r7NaUA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:dkCKttzoJDg=:gJY5sj4fthO1wMmNV/RmgE tvG2pmoddbbqrKkymNC+6+8HEYrkTXURvwuGDbZVfdZivEw42SgwOcXVaEe211c6g7wjJx+7V 0LqB1X66kD4201iIf0rtmYs1z/wYxsDfseM5aiwRnSth9ygIfKajAPsoDv+ReGEux2WQ4k19G OHSkQjIST25/t/cRUoXEHTPBzI35VLcgiom3unRALuDnJSUAnr/YWqlxazoRTGtJri9VbRe7M zd5BudpRTWeXaWubk7g/0AsWWWcP6SEpmATBcS2CL3Cq+dMkkejdBM1dCE9QQC8QPLta7LHgu NSTYMjEcZ+pwWd9XAiBlBY261pYN9pywtr516Kl+VsWi7+2DXE/1w66zDT+YWt3ZP5yHNSzU1 Rm55v0xAxhwOtL56hDLXYPCBz3TCb53k1Rg+sJzu39Nsy2Z8BfdU1xElcXotXkaAJXz9LS7un 6fqaNJItKfng99hOxzrJsAhrOyGkDZ+Mxs+xZTyvKl7tTWgLPfFpvoJTAoHvMYfAR97QeavYN 18r8IM+UC89T++TpQN0noVIlCQtQ0GS+vuaqlxjie/8rK/2lsfKjx4MapI7cWxV1iP9/z77Ms ro8yaMTf16Xumr70oRFxxbKioph38cnjHRHhxfa4PpHvJURIlGMz7NbRx0hcfFIFpuvk0myDd tR39pM2S2tCYx5h/APKq3+jnvc1owl8MaeZYw0HCIxwyLraYwn1GHjYrF8FS63Z9kHUQPsoIK spS18gpiuA0sCUv1gANS4EXk/SgyDMUX4E1T7DX7svLJR0eNZ99Pc5VoUbc+IaJdRPLEhfQIH 3qJKbXl/tZRRTmFg9OLFWgIvMRps+Bw3iFUICcbkl8ThbpJilQOWiMBhe8AH0jRePlnCdzXh3 vUE66+WQ6id9k2QbtBHgx5jWxq1pGKPYnC1RtReSreNGvzujCER7auWoR4Os+CKJiyQngraO+ 4l6RFSl4k4A6IwVc/uKscTr/4hXhDn89T9XF6DPn1q5GYIrlIU1dn7bQCj9a/kh0Wv560NdNG o1M3WvYTYOIRvEmSFi4oJjLHir2RRiE4d6NIzMlOFPmejQM+Kyo+CuTSY/hjcwbFtLIBDZwLI omk7mjaU7A2Nf8Ffq47gz0nNwbjbzupPFaU3sKjpE00ck2Q8K73VwH9XeB58ztwSesX9gfdvx GcAZGEfU6eAOaA6XFzqb8vJr30ZiMnFHRxgJ7IKDpG+7xp/t+xyJGf7hCX74xMLZY1B4AdDv5 M1nurj4sLjmhecTaT3DbtWsrEW4yWKr/sZ7XfVQ== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 Cc: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= , bug-guix@gnu.org, 38360@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nicol=C3=B2 Balzarotti writes: >> Aren=E2=80=99t we overblocking here? This is not a case of a program res= tricted >> to push someone into proprietary software, but a case of a program >> restricted to not-for-profit for everybody. >> > This is, by (some) definition, non free. Yes. >> It is a similar case as allowing to ship GPLv3 software in a ROM without >> the option to modify it, as long as no one is able to modify it on that >> medium, including the propagator. >> > >> In the case of snes9x no one is able to monetize the software, including >> the creators, because many people have a stake in the non-commercial >> clause, but the software is freely modifiable and you can share it >> non-commercially. >> >> It is also not advertised (I just tried) but simply one in a long list >> of possible cores. A very long list. And you have to actively do the >> online-lookup. >> >> We=E2=80=99re not restricting software which displays non-free online co= mics >> either. >> > Comics aren't software. Free as in Freedom can apply only to software, AF= AIK It can apply to non-software, see for example the Wikipedia and Stackoverflow. I experience that regularly since I=E2=80=99m writing a GPL-licensed roleplaying book: it uses graphics from Battle For Wesnoth, under GPL, and getting cc by-sa GPL-compatible was a major pain point for many years -> https://www.draketo.de/english/free-software/by-sa-gpl >> Installing the fastest and most compatible free software cores by >> default (pre-installed) would minimize the effect of cores bound to >> non-commercial use being available online without restricting the users >> in using RetroArch =E2=80=94 and it would make retroarch more convenient= to use. > > If I understand correctly (i.e. shipping free cores with our retroarch > distribution, while still allowing non-free software download from the > software), I half-way agree with you. However, IMO, we should not encoura= ge > the use of non free software, at all. Those non-free cores available in o= ne > click, and a user might not even know that 1. s/he is downloading some ki= nd > of software and 2. that this software is non-free (no license details). Looking at the interface *if you have some cores installed* it first presents those cores and only afterwards says "download core". And for available cores there=E2=80=99s actually a license entry (but that currently says N/A =E2=80=94 which looks like a bug to me). So while there is no license in the listing, you are presented with the license before running a core. > I was upset in discovering that I downloaded a non-free core, and I > realized just because of the ".so.zip" name. If upstream they change > the name to "core.zip", future users might not even understand what > they are doing. The .so file ending is already something that takes domain knowledge to recognize. But not from the domain of the program: The domain of the program are emulators and roms. For these "this uses a core for the specified hardware" is pretty clear. > Finally, in a purely reproducible interest, having random software > downloaded is just bad. I agree in principle but not in practice, because we also ship npm, pip, gem, package.el, cargo, maven, =E2=80=A6 Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl3ff+EACgkQE++NRSQD w+sO6g//UJXvp1rtiQf0AjIEJ1+MLqK1z8vVUvKMwpdoo2/x+T8U/Uz/iiKH9+TF wWx+nEaPogJ19rLtSgxpVCn9WGqijdRY21KWT/AdKMhxqY6Wc1E+PKvswfpCfNtR 2D2XJhYdUckQCCWgee8myli9mazC8mrj2tHTDpmKE24pVgv0A0ltCOpwDZIvsJk6 U/pf2GCAcB5dnblVD0nvQleqkDufkLzsY8y6Aj4oIeQJZ/3pClmlXkZpZlBgHM1V BhbJT0Hq7OrqYiUvjKW00/wIv9NAbBnXuAE6oXb9cJQlU5q9BL72cBEuQCWk5xTz K7sVCpjDLQETCyQFf3LrOTATNkr0MFrmFGBDRxx6smxwohBsmTcPnVYNhbl42kt8 C+cXv3jkTXqd5CvzRBkjErd0J2fpjiPxl0zH4b2hD0R9W5gJkc0JzTJAxKVWG+ML B3JNreEzho3Ei2igoMw20RJwZu1aRCEcWMmeoMZUwra4bAK8b6UdmRcpDlW9LzPW ZodGOVGxNwzcj2rhJJwiRjIiSkZK80O5BGZPVor+D+sVv09fJm655UH6yBBxoIUx RKotVfCnvPwuiINq0LLKAHCZwEKRV6zV/6t7jIflRwaDjQM9LBmhQa7BvoRUZGLN 5dQuF21npeYRjNiFT1G7IjyQWa4PijPe84+D3GrmX2b0wt3zM+yIswQBAQgAHRYh BN0ovebZh1yrzkqLHdzPDbMLwQVIBQJd33/lAAoJENzPDbMLwQVI0DwD/jV0GXmY o/GWZF3C5FUJ7F8xI8+hyUa+oCXUVrJVgMy3WGM3UEEWPyg1CLvFH9H8PNG8u71D 0t/sLbX8QO1dp/WqWEZRofGOik/03m7Z6dTBtbJf+5CTmeFnIK7LVca+JVfO3QG0 ODUoX/krdRiSeRi5MpcqZFJtWKYrV5z7sG/V =V33r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 28 05:07:20 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 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Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:06:53 +0100 References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> <877e3lkpv9.fsf@web.de> <874kyoamwd.fsf@nckx> User-agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.1 From: Arne Babenhauserheide To: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch does violate FSDG In-reply-to: <874kyoamwd.fsf@nckx> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:06:44 +0100 Message-ID: <87d0dc2u2z.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:nLgKt4GyLSnTyXLAswv4j6qv7Y/wwNURwx9kBcxvlJSI7kJRg54 EAdjelbWKvjDrXLUkw0Fmbjm6xkvL3KwS2VCa7kMTSN/eVtPPifw6bnNWWx3HCONFN2ikkQ MBddQOyVZaicnzOnWUARZ19QrAsRAS+UzI80sFBqihukNCRltVhjvvD8yAN6oUOQHUXkl/C esE1kJskkLNcQnB6Bh53w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:LQThAvBl3Mg=:J1ZKE/ULSZjqHgqoNDD7ik jqibGmH1dvcP1cPlxRuEIYhpBNLWWJ976VA27NWIdKbhsNh6oFjdrT07XcdCqmIQLTEq7y07K x/7+NAZM6Cg7jB/yLrKwNbGw8cbI9JW9BmeBFyme/12Fwq7uCibHUpc2XZ++hQj0PWAq5XkuS D/flEpjzAQC0YuYIXCDMAxYF9qXXKgY39ABFZ7TkSW8kPcvlVXLvh6WOQzKywkZJFa/34/QUr eTLF4e3t0w/4GHE1tktOsfRh5BJaPfnP6wOYLL21jQbO/wV7JEiH2QGEFFR8xBoqr4FPxvlfz vU7cUJzZeZ/lqx755WiWUD6ajfvWOs++timl7NdAR628Hz3K9PsadNp0vbQECv5g8dynmGB6V 00Ci/gM6ehIkmfF4TiVPahwfk8sIYCJRaIdu+ya5S+3MjDfcRouwcJPsCz99/3xu467rXHCRD uvVTWTLCbwUAoeNzuWZSpoywqBSKwALlAjyQC0Lu+B48A1U2RDddu8pokv1ye/3kxMyB0cpZd ipL8ZRYZbhMZm7Z+jbvWjP8ijFMAkpIjdoOtVbCDfQKxhR1+sIYiROyIDplq6uJnUvlSEyQ4R BFMdDfDhH0v75nAAEeQXk9Bl22XQnXm2Dd+PyFfML9KbX/fWwL4HDJoulMZXLhMc+pQh7jdkv pMMG5dhIomcQg674gB1RPf43YSopH+N7Iy9yhIuQ4Qh2eCma6LAQMzQoek5xMAHpTt4b8X7xz bAAbgocWYhSHdmoPF+9EQVIjwHWeCjvXl8pxtOXdx2elQCbdGAIF6UvBkxbN9q+l31IR9Nf3P W6aA1+m7CrkjAlH8tt0x/AA2/1nfbFIh+XvFq6p3de4i/RlC2CQFSCUFVIrEIKkH6QD5JBw7a awQ1Hwpkqt61A0rPBpJ043YUJ8dUTkHJhYqJZdJf+yo9TQkFlxk2DSJS47EJezPs7mjJ5Ip3S oCgLORz8aYT3yZ5GkKMVMpdVOGpfZvgww6B2a09M6Yy8lq8tazFra3BmbrFuHRcTOca3ML7Jo wOKghp9drp6hZXd4LyVMKK2DeK58YL4Xp8xkJa7pE0eZsKDYaqpYL2TaKE9XZEpsdcNssupLF NqDolAxmqJDfQeYm6hQ/vfMehgwV91362cOe51h3cLz09gM+5Qqxnp/Q0WXtd9GwrYvPSuAyw JW5Dxj/eMtt4BOCAu9ksmSbmJzoKibmhEdUd0n39Kf8YxmEyFNOSCOVEinPbVfT1be3gzCKSO M4flTmBxIiexmCxwwD2Y2q/R6xBLtdR7dKpwZ/Q== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 Cc: 38360@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tobias Geerinckx-Rice via Bug reports for GNU Guix write= s: > Guix, > > This is not about Schr=C3=B6dinger's proprietary-until-proven-innocent > binary. The Updater includes at least two cores explicitly marked as > non-free in Debian: > > libretro-genesisplusgx > libretro-snes9x In non-free because they are non-commercial, not because they treacherous to users. This is a distinction the FSF used to make until 2010 but dropped since the= n: https://web.archive.org/web/20100126044451/http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ca= tegories.html#semi-freeSoftware > Disabling the Updater seems like an open & shut case to me. > > This is a shame, because I think these non-commercial clauses are > silly and legally void. Core authors can't place arbitrary > restrictions on derivative works of a GPL3 project. Unfortunately, > that obvious fact is for a court to point out, and until then we must > act as if it makes any sense. Retroarch is not a derivative work of the cores. There is an API-layer between both. This is similar to a PDF which can place restrictions on what I can do with a PDF-viewer *while viewing that PDF*. For example I=E2=80=99m not all= owed to charge money for displaying a PDF for which I don=E2=80=99t have commerc= ial use rights. (since PDFs can have Javascript embedded, this even applies when we have a strict discussion about programs) > Arne, to address your last point first: > > Arne Babenhauserheide =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A >> It is also not advertised (I just tried) but simply one in a long >> list of possible cores. A very long list. And you have to actively do >> the online-lookup. > > For the purpose of this (FSDG) discussion, that's exactly what > =E2=80=98advertised=E2=80=99 means. > > I install Retroarch with Guix. When I run Retroarch, it prods me to > (literally) =E2=80=98use the Updater if available=E2=80=99. When I do th= at, I can > select from many cores, at least two of them non-free. > There is no way for me to know this important fact; I have to type the > name of the core into a search engine and dig, possibly deep (not > everyone knows the awesome power of a Debian copyright file :-). Look at what happens when you have at least one core installed: It shows you the core with a line for the license (but that says N/A for snes9x, which is likely a bug). If we pre-install free cores, then these are what will be shown first. And different from browser-add-ons, they are not run until you start them =E2=80=94 before which you see the license (barring the N/A bug). > You're not required to agree with any of the above, but Guix must. If the license-info line is fixed, then not: You are then clearly informed of the license *before* you run the core. >> We=E2=80=99re not restricting software which displays non-free online co= mics >> either. > > Indeed, that would be against our stated goal of user freedom. > > Comics aren't software so don't count I disagree, but that=E2=80=99s a personal opinion which is not mainstream i= n GNU. >> Aren=E2=80=99t we overblocking here? This is not a case of a program >> restricted >> to push someone into proprietary software, but a case of a program >> restricted to not-for-profit for everybody. > > It's just as bad for the same reason. It is not *just as* bad. If I can choose between a closed-source-likely-spies-on-you-and-you-cannot-do-anything-about-it tool and a you-can-see-and-fix-everything-but-noone-can-earn-money-with-it tool, the latter is clearly better. Not sufficiently good for inclusion in a free distribution, but in my opinion also not bad enough to censor from lists. > That violates a fundamental software freedom (#0: the freedom to run > the software as you wish, for any purpose). > > Contrast this with the GPL, which places zero restrictions on use =E2=80= =94 I > don't even have to share the software or my improvements with anyone! This is not true for the AGPL, because that places the restriction that you have to provide the source you=E2=80=99re running. That=E2=80=99s a restriction I like, because it prevents circumvention of t= he GPL, but it is a restriction. The non-commercial clause for emulators was added because otherwise they would have been struck down. >> It is a similar case as allowing to ship GPLv3 software in a ROM >> without >> the option to modify it, as long as no one is able to modify it on >> that >> medium, including the propagator. > > I don't see any similarities. With any GPL3 software, I am always > allowed to copy the software and do with it what I want, no matter the > underlying storage at some point in time. In that case you cannot in practice do with it what you want, because you cannot run a modified version on your device. The important distinction is, that the creator cannot do so either. And this is the symmetry which is also preserved with the non-commercial cores. I=E2=80=99m not arguing to include snes9x in Guix, just that this isn=E2=80= =99t a case where redaction of information is needed =E2=80=94 if we package the free c= ores. Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl3fnDYACgkQE++NRSQD w+t6ZQ//Z+usI3AyMBrCzo4siAR5tNe1r0VNVHkVeZoUwBFft3K5uprYNAjXT9uc Fo5oIBziDdupWq9CdY1ABcKDHtbckr9a5KrIUk6U/K0ld/MhGphQKk44HDf5uNYa oN5t66uIJ4tGyhUFMI3ENC7vJ1g1LRUru8CSH6EzY2AHDZjnkVgHgOrPpgkvxMdh 5loC7URVz9/ZdNEIUWeVuHPe9bKKTmlT4lTIib9VYx6htXhNt5UlQWxTOK9wY7J3 Q99Kga0d8dBlQNp8b5ErcATUeyJCAXztkM6BlU7yU8iDX3+TV5uRgNZ1APb2jON4 X+EdSQiid+7qol15MS+QXoslxxuodhuCPRD7wpgOJd4n/29uP8Dr3ebp6X4XM51q sFsAZevx5tSzgGZ5by+kCjDZOw83pBKk9gJaKIsH+E9lH7cDJlC5WEEdrB7NCL08 g9liuubyZnGCW6DBaiTUc4rSsWb80kmwS2p1UxxR4iaM0eV6XTfhEfscNtg63jU0 3WEubApqGY6X4xXtESeLKk8rZ03PeRCW3bZmpULrADqEcQ4wJZxENX7JSKxNeHgS 02QTKTCN0nj8lgLNrFqryjno6Y2RW1e4Vyf+bUzQpVGUQLy0X/kdnueNJB5VBOtt nKa5ibA2Opw/Pz/wPfAYpN+27pQEVVDmhjqSs/uXyd5GBitiO0KIswQBAQgAHRYh BN0ovebZh1yrzkqLHdzPDbMLwQVIBQJd35w3AAoJENzPDbMLwQVIN98D/1m4tr8y r5NjG27uayzjMU6WHI+98e+hbAPsG3HBnTeeyaSwO9nhTicwmoTJD0/zS7hO+2t+ oRPN45wqFuYlwIU/Ploi+QRVPKziaEwL+lBZBCudISZR6DJppi9KSIN4SZLCKnyS TbkOYR4CYbAkUk/KeRWYgpHkM5c0ipJBhxja =sjyx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 28 11:28:08 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Nov 2019 16:28:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59035 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iaMeG-0005dw-2S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:28:08 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46681) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iaMeD-0005dR-Qq for 38360@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:28:06 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:44856) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iaMe7-0000xJ-Gr; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:28:00 -0500 Received: from [2001:660:6102:320:e120:2c8f:8909:cdfe] (port=38412 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1iaMe4-0007O4-AZ; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:27:56 -0500 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: =?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=B2?= Balzarotti Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch might violate FSDG References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: 8 Frimaire an 228 de la =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=A9volution?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 17:27:53 +0100 In-Reply-To: (=?utf-8?Q?=22Nicol=C3=B2?= Balzarotti"'s message of "Wed, 27 Nov 2019 00:26:48 +0100") Message-ID: <87zhggt186.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 Cc: 38360@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) Hi Nicol=C3=B2, Nicol=C3=B2 Balzarotti skribis: > We don't provide them _directly_, but when loading the program the first > option is "Load core". Then, first option again, is "Download core". Here > you have a list of "proprietary" .so.zip downloads. Retroarch, as far as I > understand, is encouraging the download of those programs, with no > licensing information (see [1]). I don't know if this is ok or if we can > patch it (hiding the "Download core" menu maybe?). Oh, that sounds pretty bad. In my view, it=E2=80=99s a problem: 1. from a user freedom viewpoint, because the user might unwillingly find themselves downloading non-free code, and thus Guix is not fulfilling its mission; 2. from a security and engineering viewpoint, because we certainly don=E2=80=99t want users to run code from arbitrary binaries downloaded from the net. I think it definitely needs to be fixed. > Debian _does_ provide (from their package manager) some o the cores [2], > two of them with the non-free tag. > If we patch retroarch to hide the download menu, to make it functional we > should also package some free cores. That sounds like a plan. Would you be able to help with that? Hopefully there are patches we can take from Debian, no? If nobody can work on it in a timely fashion, I would propose to remove retroarch until someone can do this work. WDYT? Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 28 14:24:39 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Nov 2019 19:24:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59160 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iaPP4-0001QH-Uo for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 14:24:39 -0500 Received: from tobias.gr ([80.241.217.52]:49364) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iaPP1-0001Q4-Gm for 38360@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 14:24:37 -0500 Received: by tobias.gr (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 8dacf39f; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 19:24:32 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=tobias.gr; h=from:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type; s=2018; i=me@tobias.gr; bh=1Y95KUvLxpGU/FogPGUjQo Qf9VPCSYKG/cXPOfgba20=; b=S02BkEMZlNBCy2PAEqaDHJmByubuiT0Z9FY2mb +Ijh8ZKxrW8N2LRbQJsaZtFCYR0Fq0z28ol7giHSC8BFDn97oWJ+xgA4hGEjSLuA kUUivf1ddyA30trH8MttWJHQDZkNIA53tKAJmM4PWW5Z4xjN1P5Pg1fmPzzWaZeJ gv4n+suriCefeTO460rlHSnabODtcTcrpg6iLNEzGnkheWKhqSOfTZtta9MWgxPo ujOvPL7O1HCcYEawHKFE4Y9a9mydiLBSWkYOOOCLYQctpIesYhfmQjYZYcb1jBDr XfSeI45rx7LqHfxmk7NbKflDWSqvRjc8gfXxbV2RsIO+s0ag== Received: by submission.tobias.gr (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id cbf91d9d (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Thu, 28 Nov 2019 19:24:32 +0000 (UTC) From: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice To: =?utf-8?Q?Nicol=C3=B2?= Balzarotti , 38360@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch might violate FSDG References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhggt186.fsf@gnu.org> In-reply-to: <87zhggt186.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 20:24:31 +0100 Message-ID: <87wobj953k.fsf@nckx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ludovic Court=C3=A8s =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > Would you be able to help with that? Hopefully there are=20 > patches we can > take from Debian, no? > > If nobody can work on it in a timely fashion, I would propose to=20 > remove > retroarch until someone can do this work. I'm looking into this now. Kind regards, T G-R --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEfo+u0AlEeO9y5k0W2Imw8BjFSTwFAl3gHu8ACgkQ2Imw8BjF STzrFg/+Kimsqar5StqMvnQCbhTliEwmjLLOBBeJYkqWiGZ8RmH3fCI+JYRb01rp XZ5s9n+5Ndmydy406DgYAKLZdGEOdHPpcYb8b2iuqiwcGWZl90Ah6RTjPU0idJIw ERhh9xBGSktPEOanshZtkBvHvJ2quTbeRwfKAK+kC5buTExxVteErAsiTNznKLwj Kvj8d8RmQDywwZ/2oRmx7KPv7/jWxAJ4iF7ncx/nWKFtpLwdQR94nF9A3AF9xkRc nFNs1AOYFXXIbnyIjFag2yfw7doCtAlXhc56XMkoQUD3O9bRoNPTe4nCYmwSmaCD s5g7SORHYLoIxKmaUD1c2/BlaukOcmmEueP6xTsQsRF1tLmd5AGuJICFjRyD6pxX Vq+o/gejJLhjwJx7f8MP6Wm/eGDW2VDhHPtAwmIzbs3adpNMWhmy9CL5IINtZNPW 9qsjz+iJTviRgwPxqtnR+XEzcu+wodsVX2ZhAuvCOT1qFkSxwyhHfaSxaTyXElZf kBfbhHqAA4LJ44UBQCmHSelJlv/QUEGGC3wkyrhwwvQwnH4zMKKpaFGRU9akdwei CrC+RjYIYwvzGsF65qGQ+8prm3N72x4X4SykIHs/n7Nj/RLRVzwnFY2JwItUZ4Jw pyTRmplCgMJuUAeWrpIJQ7y2WfoAE8LQLmQda3f+CL22V5NSjTE= =hLDk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 29 10:22:06 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Nov 2019 15:22:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33427 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iai5u-0003GY-Do for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 10:22:06 -0500 Received: from tobias.gr ([80.241.217.52]:33098) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iai5r-0003G4-Ff for 38360@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 10:22:05 -0500 Received: by tobias.gr (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id baaba060 for <38360@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 15:21:59 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=tobias.gr; h=from:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type; s=2018; i=me@tobias.gr; bh=cUZxgu9b2OhNfR71QZrpfb HHpfVYLC78ZnUGhOPVJ2U=; b=logiKNtGyRhLsmg1dlwAurBmohjwUfeNzasubp loU2Om41eZ7In8BrVc8ZGfhs28Z2Il4fawsTzE/SLnMbZ/Fw1G9WRV9zbvdHn430 ijpo7KFpeUOuzlE76IPk2rhvcggAFOVpBsFGK4cz0vyUkV9xxwcT4O7+2UuYU2nY lsjaGXTXWS+PcTSmKqxtrFYwzcw4IovX9Bn/W8nT/iE6rr6fGg+vrFdkqDQ28ljP LEbGmC9zL0BBPU/tTpEV7IOjAQJvgCqcsR6rj7hZ98Qj1/DbkHU0CkhQ8chkfKPX hsrB4et/9sgl1292lp/kXFVfhzbM4mRX4L0pm0IUqupUMfww== Received: by submission.tobias.gr (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id fda3a55a (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO) for <38360@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 15:21:59 +0000 (UTC) From: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice To: 38360@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch might violate FSDG References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhggt186.fsf@gnu.org> <87wobj953k.fsf@nckx> In-reply-to: <87wobj953k.fsf@nckx> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 16:21:57 +0100 Message-ID: <87h82m908a.fsf@nckx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tobias Geerinckx-Rice =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > I'm looking into this now. So I've installed Retroarch on Debian. They patch[0] it to hide the Updater by default but it's trivial=20 to re=C3=ABnable (tested): $ echo 'menu_show_core_updater =3D "false"' >> \ ~/.config/retroarch/retroarch.cfg This does not appease me. I'm implementing more incisive=20 measures. Thoughts? Am I an anti-choice extremist? Kind regards, T G-R [0]:=20 https://sources.debian.org/patches/retroarch/1.7.3+dfsg1-1/01_config.patch/ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEfo+u0AlEeO9y5k0W2Imw8BjFSTwFAl3hN5UACgkQ2Imw8BjF STyKoRAAj0CnClfOqY89pCQSSd4wqZACoP3yzZCDkHAq36YGNCsliQifU8AkkqE1 7P5x+SLu9rjuEwzUFwhhNRx3m9tZl/KpCD3CD/BDaMPaCiKKgqxQWFoq9UQQKzt8 /e1z9xb94iDS7sguO3v5amVG0Z5tzl6Spp5D+huMjdWqjlpPj1n0THKwcnNDua4N pKEwljsfNtq4DtRKu7COFmOg7EZi2InPppzRU9UaAdsGQPlAUgRP10nEeds5smcm L8iweuub2D1NtImfeDav/wnfh5k0A5LNQy/P25IUz0CBPU4GTu+M4/XfxPZpbmoO lE/bUMiC6J60Kmw9ofsrkmL6f44FRyjFS677YXHKgFtXwXxX1l5FSy4vXF3nMZ7e cv5N+CHxv0azDxpWX07Co5/IgL3aMPjlwoGiVzZ2hNTT27osIAKsp7u3FlYrIvf7 sPeRft4ZwoIOd2LjjFcr6zKxRRYkn6pM8fxqpFME2HnkGQwqgzCW2+po+1I+ZjH3 1Tm5qyRr4YEi6wc9FEyo/cP40CoZX3/J/vDN6gQHKZHmnRCAjtQz4qHHfd999n0H b/Ki6KdKfbtoUJmUV0iDOU7NRGSycuOqjhg9P5b7cfTxUjuI5XNDSbmb/So6K+qS 50FjglHwKyzoc3GCMK9OOELvKB/q9eSmcQg5zlH0WgkarVQRRz8= =ffBx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 29 10:24:52 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 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Fri, 29 Nov 2019 15:24:47 +0000 (UTC) From: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice To: 38360@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch might violate FSDG References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhggt186.fsf@gnu.org> <87wobj953k.fsf@nckx> <87h82m908a.fsf@nckx> In-reply-to: <87h82m908a.fsf@nckx> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 16:24:46 +0100 Message-ID: <87fti6903l.fsf@nckx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tobias Geerinckx-Rice via Bug reports for GNU Guix =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC= =9A > $ echo 'menu_show_core_updater =3D "false"' ^^^^^ "true", of course=E2=80=A6 Kind regards, T G-R --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tobias Geerinckx-Rice via Bug reports for GNU Guix write= s: > They patch[0] it to hide the Updater by default but it's trivial to > re=C3=ABnable (tested): > > $ echo 'menu_show_core_updater =3D "false"' >> \ > ~/.config/retroarch/retroarch.cfg > > This does not appease me. I'm implementing more incisive measures. > > Thoughts? Am I an anti-choice extremist? I do not like to put people into boxes. I can judge actions, not people. Implementing more extreme measures than changing the default uses practical power against users. It limits user freedom. As committer to Guix you are in a position of power over users. You can use that position to liberate them from shackles, or you can use it to limit their freedom. When I look into ethical decisions, I need a basic goal. The mission of GNU is "to promote computer user freedom". This is too vague to use on its own to check an action, therefore I=E2=80=99m using the more actionabe mission of the Hurd: =E2=80=9COur mission is to create a general-purpose kernel suitable for the= GNU operating system, which is viable for everyday use, and gives users and programs as much control over their computing environment as possible.=E2= =80=9C Giving programs as much control over their environment is not relevant to the discussion (it is only relevant for a kernel with the assumption that the program acts on behalf of the user). For this ethical check I=E2=80=99ll therefore simplify the mission to: =E2=80=9COur mission is to give users as much control over their computing environment as possible.=E2=80=9C Does it give users as much control over their computing environment as possible if you make it harder for them to re-enable the updater? By making it harder, you limit the number of people who can take the decision to re-activate the updater, therefore fewer people have the practical freedom to do so, though they can still do so in theory. But using a license like the GPL is all about practical Freedom. If we were only talking about theoretical freedom, then any binary blob (without DRM) would give as much freedom as an AGPL program. Game modders have been demonstrating that for decades. Therefore theoretical freedom does not suffice: The goal must be practical freedom. The freedom to hack as easily as possible. Giving as many people as possible the freedom to change the operation of as many parts of the system as possible. Implementing measures to limit user freedom beyond choosing defaults that ensure that they do not accidentally fall into a trap they do not see goes against that. It limits the practical freedom of users. As committer to Guix you have practical power over every Guix user. When you use that power, it is your responsibility to further their freedom, not to create new chains. That would be consistent with the mission to give users as much control over their computing environment as possible. Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl3hQcwACgkQE++NRSQD w+tnfQ//aXarehFIyf4jxB/0SaVAbxWAzjCRjOvXrI2aNjfsqYbP7Kt79GRYCKnW r42Z852Q3c11uLA9hXlGEzS7LRECEjs7YRIeRcwEfudnug3TUyJmIa33TUOXA7sC jM+DKyZJDHkmlgNlC6Zwe38KzT5J5tAhhnj/8wiQMtvri7i9NBETrFAxuD3IgB2o aRDAUP114y6/7a6NvsyerWSxrh2fCHe64aqX408No9vOrS6aDTcgBuXlUR6eNLrQ 4dwrLjLltppz9LITo9oYZkF/zbiaeWOS/W7yQT9ya5Iey5BL4ftn/zmiPvrsMLxi y4K8bZSRI9ogC37OVB5yl4or2fl3jYW6AYQ8GT/G1O++H7BlmcozAgut9d1rxID3 nDZVg0gvO50fG6mXU7ieWFX/LrzSjzbf62HJ7dMCtbwWD8GEyjhPJ/kusVwaeOud qwZMbJWQKHFWqKwoQsJ/v949to9aItRpTps4cspBdW/nbn79pXAPwVDjKiLGUFBD lW8nJ2jOVrkHg02qb0CM1U7blYCisGkGI4Di+BV4lbcNO3SUJgmA6Lvs3UUZ/YaW MI3Ek3tcIJRt4LJkO1QrbSmaChdsEddZuV6UFbs1b+MLKJAQ5l6Q27WIzgKwAcEF fqPeoCc0ji0AgoBnCh25jTPuOS6/Fh4BmYKD5T1C/8y8g5OSgo2IswQBAQgAHRYh BN0ovebZh1yrzkqLHdzPDbMLwQVIBQJd4UHMAAoJENzPDbMLwQVIoVkD/iUXR+Kn SX4YUHf63k+kdAOXFKO4xCvLFfRwFa7JXvpkQc7LlwW2dpXc4gXTeR0vuHkguf0m sAT4wZM21Pt0/zV8N4GlziCEIj9La9gMLQp4ay+IYwFph3J3ZareqVpMC6Gn/9rQ m6Q0ZfuL+GCOfR0n6kAx57Pe9Lnf+VlCQ7yI =SiZv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 29 15:15:19 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Nov 2019 20:15:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33608 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iamfa-00023q-Be for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 15:15:19 -0500 Received: from tobias.gr ([80.241.217.52]:44896) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iamfT-00023X-MI for 38360@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 15:15:12 -0500 Received: by tobias.gr (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 77bcbafb for <38360@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 20:15:04 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=tobias.gr; h=from:to :subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=2018; i=me@tobias.gr; bh=KvLJqALzznV5ZrhNL/ge5cbzyhwdunBFPSKIr3IsF/c=; b=QZHKuNYjTkeA qJjVM0g53t6LNnbEQQvRESPuD4HXofXPqOagTo9Qwuliwu/aJNExHfwHRm9J1tUb UDOLbgG8tSZh4tlx2aFg1aw8Atb6IFsY0r9XALTCLORCJPwyfRpXOiR6sgzXkzET Fc2h0L3LfxvmQhbP1eaSzY6CpWtSfs7IBC0X6v7X+E1gH+ONBNJIhNAAm6bUikgD OG60Pkzc3DQ9cxeQMg9T7jlcf/9wr+i5W+vgAFKaTn0WhvXRRzV8xJs8jFaHoO+F OWrxBJy+ElVuunTn+h5QOQcu53jweBEha9gy0td3MxkwtHFZVGa6OBYKZlU8ImAJ 6/TxXE3mXA== Received: by submission.tobias.gr (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 482cf008 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256:NO) for <38360@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 20:15:04 +0000 (UTC) From: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice To: 38360@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: [PATCH] gnu: retroarch: Disable Online Updater [FSDG fix]. Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 21:14:39 +0100 Message-Id: <20191129201439.3668-1-me@tobias.gr> X-Mailer: git-send-email 2.23.0 In-Reply-To: <87h82m908a.fsf@nckx> References: <87h82m908a.fsf@nckx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Addresses . * gnu/packages/emulators.scm (retroarch)[source]: Add patch and snippet. * packages/patches/retroarch-disable-online-updater.patch: New file. * gnu/local.mk (dist_patch_DATA): Add it. --- gnu/local.mk | 1 + gnu/packages/emulators.scm | 17 +++++++++++++++-- .../retroarch-disable-online-updater.patch | 19 +++++++++++++++++++ 3 files changed, 35 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-) create mode 100644 gnu/packages/patches/retroarch-disable-online-updater.patch diff --git a/gnu/local.mk b/gnu/local.mk index 88b0f98aa0..b0036a52a0 100644 --- a/gnu/local.mk +++ b/gnu/local.mk @@ -1330,6 +1330,7 @@ dist_patch_DATA = \ %D%/packages/patches/rpcbind-CVE-2017-8779.patch \ %D%/packages/patches/rtags-separate-rct.patch \ %D%/packages/patches/racket-store-checksum-override.patch \ + %D%/packages/patches/retroarch-disable-online-updater.patch \ %D%/packages/patches/ruby-rubygems-276-for-ruby24.patch \ %D%/packages/patches/ruby-rack-ignore-failing-test.patch \ %D%/packages/patches/ruby-safe-yaml-add-require-time.patch \ diff --git a/gnu/packages/emulators.scm b/gnu/packages/emulators.scm index 7d3f7f019c..e622d2df4d 100644 --- a/gnu/packages/emulators.scm +++ b/gnu/packages/emulators.scm @@ -1062,7 +1062,18 @@ emulation community. It provides highly accurate emulation.") (commit (string-append "v" version)))) (file-name (git-file-name name version)) (sha256 - (base32 "0y7rcpz7psf8k3agsrq277jdm651vbnn9xpqvmj2in1a786idya7")))) + (base32 "0y7rcpz7psf8k3agsrq277jdm651vbnn9xpqvmj2in1a786idya7")) + (patches + (search-patches "retroarch-disable-online-updater.patch")) + (modules '((guix build utils))) + (snippet + '(begin + ;; Don't suggest using the Online Updater if available: it never + ;; is. This disables translation of this particular message. + (substitute* (find-files "menu/drivers" "\\.c$") + (("msg_hash_to_str\\(MSG_MISSING_ASSETS\\)") + "\"Warning: Missing assets, go get some\"")) + #t)))) (build-system gnu-build-system) (arguments `(#:tests? #f ; no tests @@ -1074,7 +1085,7 @@ emulation community. It provides highly accurate emulation.") (etc (string-append out "/etc")) (vulkan (assoc-ref inputs "vulkan-loader")) (wayland-protocols (assoc-ref inputs "wayland-protocols"))) - ;; Hard-code the path to libvulkan.so. + ;; Hard-code some store file names. (substitute* "gfx/common/vulkan_common.c" (("libvulkan.so") (string-append vulkan "/lib/libvulkan.so"))) (substitute* "gfx/common/wayland/generate_wayland_protos.sh" @@ -1082,10 +1093,12 @@ emulation community. It provides highly accurate emulation.") (string-append wayland-protocols "/share/wayland-protocols"))) (substitute* "qb/qb.libs.sh" (("/bin/true") (which "true"))) + ;; Use shared zlib. (substitute* '("libretro-common/file/archive_file_zlib.c" "libretro-common/streams/trans_stream_zlib.c") (("") "")) + ;; The configure script does not yet accept the extra arguments ;; (like ‘CONFIG_SHELL=’) passed by the default configure phase. (invoke diff --git a/gnu/packages/patches/retroarch-disable-online-updater.patch b/gnu/packages/patches/retroarch-disable-online-updater.patch new file mode 100644 index 0000000000..99af848f6a --- /dev/null +++ b/gnu/packages/patches/retroarch-disable-online-updater.patch @@ -0,0 +1,19 @@ +diff -Naur retroarch.a/menu/menu_setting.c retroarch.c/menu/menu_setting.c +--- retroarch.a/menu/menu_setting.c 1970-01-01 01:00:01.000000000 +0100 ++++ retroarch.c/menu/menu_setting.c 2019-11-29 18:13:05.999578841 +0100 +@@ -7292,6 +7292,7 @@ + &subgroup_info, + parent_group); + ++ /* + CONFIG_ACTION( + list, list_info, + MENU_ENUM_LABEL_ONLINE_UPDATER, +@@ -7299,6 +7300,7 @@ + &group_info, + &subgroup_info, + parent_group); ++ */ + #endif + + CONFIG_ACTION( -- 2.23.0 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 29 23:26:06 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Nov 2019 04:26:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33724 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iauKc-0008GX-Go for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 23:26:06 -0500 Received: from world.peace.net ([64.112.178.59]:35318) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iauKa-0008GG-Ni for 38360@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 23:26:05 -0500 Received: from mhw by world.peace.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iauKY-0004M0-6i; Fri, 29 Nov 2019 23:26:02 -0500 From: Mark H Weaver To: Arne Babenhauserheide Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch does violate FSDG References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> <877e3lkpv9.fsf@web.de> <874kyoamwd.fsf@nckx> <87d0dc2u2z.fsf@web.de> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 23:24:49 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87d0dc2u2z.fsf@web.de> (Arne Babenhauserheide's message of "Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:06:44 +0100") Message-ID: <87wobi3s9f.fsf@netris.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 Cc: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice , 38360@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Arne, Arne Babenhauserheide writes: > Tobias Geerinckx-Rice via Bug reports for GNU Guix wri= tes: > >> Guix, >> >> This is not about Schr=C3=B6dinger's proprietary-until-proven-innocent >> binary. The Updater includes at least two cores explicitly marked as >> non-free in Debian: >> >> libretro-genesisplusgx >> libretro-snes9x > > In non-free because they are non-commercial, not because they > treacherous to users. Your words "In non-free because they are non-commercial" are unclear. I guess you meant to say "They are in non-free because they prohibit commercial use". Is that right? > This is a distinction the FSF used to make until 2010 but dropped since t= hen: > https://web.archive.org/web/20100126044451/http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/= categories.html#semi-freeSoftware What distinction do you think was dropped by the FSF since 2010? If you're suggesting that the Free Software Definition was changed in 2010 to allow programs that prohibit commercial use, you are certainly mistaken. The current Free Software Definition states: =E2=80=9CFree software=E2=80=9D does not mean =E2=80=9Cnoncommercial=E2= =80=9D. A free program must be available for commercial use, commercial development, and commercial distribution. Commercial development of free software is no longer unusual; such free commercial software is very important. You may have paid money to get copies of free software, or you may have obtained copies at no charge. But regardless of how you got your copies, you always have the freedom to copy and change the software, even to sell copies. Moreover, the GNU FSDG states: A free system distribution must not steer users towards obtaining any nonfree information for practical use, or encourage them to do so. where "information for practical use" is defined as: =E2=80=9CInformation for practical use=E2=80=9D includes software, docume= ntation, fonts, and other data that has direct functional applications. It does not include artistic works that have an aesthetic (rather than functional) purpose, or statements of opinion or judgment. >> Disabling the Updater seems like an open & shut case to me. Agreed. Thanks, Mark From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 30 07:11:23 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Nov 2019 12:11:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33815 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ib1at-0004bm-Eb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 07:11:23 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:33447) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ib1ar-0004bR-0E for 38360@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 07:11:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1575115852; bh=T5GgjOzqyo+Uzm6b///VP53PH3i+T0VLIRHLjALTET0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=U805Lnzf3PU2HEQWfo8cjl+QP7yhbI9xzzPSHvpkOOJrc9Ji8RaucUjHI6hOgmzcq btkh5ptVp3n9QwYMbxKzkE9RC9zZ46h7M/bdwhwlFdoSuZKl4Ra0l6qNdaotVkkiH6 31UwyM2MXeZCHh2gvqL4A55N3MOmKyNXct6W6CG4= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from fluss ([80.136.28.233]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb102 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LgpJ4-1hy88w0L9q-00oHCz; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 13:10:52 +0100 References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> <877e3lkpv9.fsf@web.de> <874kyoamwd.fsf@nckx> <87d0dc2u2z.fsf@web.de> <87wobi3s9f.fsf@netris.org> User-agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.1 From: Arne Babenhauserheide To: Mark H Weaver Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch does violate FSDG In-reply-to: <87wobi3s9f.fsf@netris.org> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 13:10:46 +0100 Message-ID: <87zhgdr2d5.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:2xmieEI+KR50aGPcmfeMSMvrrLPMLRtT3cCdxkBtevP06GbBp1N l9xgUzvt3MN3dYaIYI8E/tINtEj0zQ3l4w2RIm9tLa+h10EimDGh/IIiKiu4u9qTMaitnUu 0fDoueEduLHn1ffGlCP6K2O8t4jEgbuI3gcQO/FYATvvUNjhcmVc2hulrQGPXLMf753Q2jK idNS+nEsYLP4uVelT4K8Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:dmvH9nNV3fU=:0GFa05/P+1T4mW2P5vWuwF HxnBGIjjZmAcJBc8QPT+6J60C/TxYiVYd5QESc6y9lShVGXIsbJAQUFXQjhD3fNW0RVRPOoGI E88QMrKpQd1HWsPR85opbL5gSy//tdCVFPG1BxX1kdhleHFh6KVCC4yTApzd7GLBN5LjEwLpU MopjHClXAG6xF+Q9rcrv9lLorsyhBmPVm4x9UQcsJtq9N835PxyHro63HQwapHZ0q78+vulvO ksKtOQ0BLaB3EF6YkR3YkQRoDEY/uuNyjhRE/nv5NCLClw/BfbdBT9QS3iuxJWRAewwbkMflg o1LKbb34dFe7eAvheK5CLZSawmTSOBpMBiW1I47YT/cU45npfy6+1isZ9+wqUv+x20INL4ttG BgzXc8wiEGxzPsqlVlQZLowT4niiInqym0Y+pd3S66u5fZxqPA2vpL2gHSNVIS1YDj2gMllJI XWbbqyRJjMkr+9hjeTFscJZAdsdFbCqXKhT13ZDzC03palfY1ryf5Ft9HQxI/4jdAAEyjC/Q9 737j/StPi62JDhLpndAiIeAUqmpGvh8bqcDv90j1x1z1BdQtHQ1R/tJOZ52dqcQmby5sq0qgI sWxB5Zw5ouy5VzAjQotT7NKV1cJmoHNuVmCzlrZKqNDGrRrgOI2W9xGFm0tLXEKTq6mGzpOIm 9UF1KDBpK1v6W0zlm6c+QtxpEoxlx30T3zzVlQdNbLcpaMC1NNAHWQ2py9fz2wEkh7QzPQLZJ eprmBlF4OYq4+RziUiKA0mjG3PV418vHZxuesrs2syn40fEssudhI3XVVuWBFuRFdfsGTf0Nl BwruQWn5aZZGZRQBexzVt0sce3QRqtKx/0tnEEC8Lhq870nSdCf0SumSAvCSes0ndtB6/dUep ZIjM61ANkKuUaojOuHLXa+A8EjKhuClCNv0KpB9OBisL3IrKyS23uZsB2jO06rnN0gm8U1V8s pPxOL/o++KBMUAVoYbrK5AGfJffz74QI2qF4CaLxjruF5qZxgv2uO/KihHyAOnGxeQ2BwXbmK RFBXbLIfUJFjHb4MKTzOgffIjSxdjPWo3Flvigo5ukjZ/5QJMMJh609o+k8HdFLpAdLRBtDjg iHaL9vLzO4w+VY6jh/eQmTsaOpqIVRUve+X+4vXIUJLH1SM1py0LESX+j6mWx9kkY4wbwz2df dpEtWzLpr6TpzpnTgfD8aL2qgz7WSlKXebCUeDkjakenDtVAW8+BCkgzf+yd3Gv8Vl/YnzQfu R0uclR9Xti5AoWhgc4ALQ31lavP4SLNp7x5GwmA== X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 Cc: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice , 38360@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark H Weaver writes: > Hi Arne, > > Arne Babenhauserheide writes: > >> Tobias Geerinckx-Rice via Bug reports for GNU Guix wr= ites: >> >>> Guix, >>> >>> This is not about Schr=C3=B6dinger's proprietary-until-proven-innocent >>> binary. The Updater includes at least two cores explicitly marked as >>> non-free in Debian: >>> >>> libretro-genesisplusgx >>> libretro-snes9x >> >> In non-free because they are non-commercial, not because they >> treacherous to users. > > Your words "In non-free because they are non-commercial" are unclear. > I guess you meant to say "They are in non-free because they prohibit > commercial use". Is that right? Yes. More exactly: They are in non-free, because they prohibit commercial use, not because they are treacherous to users. Most proprietary programs are treacherous because they give their creators power over their users. This is not the case for these cores. >> This is a distinction the FSF used to make until 2010 but dropped since = then: >> https://web.archive.org/web/20100126044451/http://www.gnu.org/philosophy= /categories.html#semi-freeSoftware > > What distinction do you think was dropped by the FSF since 2010? The distinction that was dropped is that non-commercial software which provides the source and allows non-commercial use, changing and sharing is less problematic that closed-source software. The distinction to call that software semi-free. > If you're suggesting that the Free Software Definition was changed in > 2010 to allow programs that prohibit commercial use, you are certainly > mistaken. I=E2=80=99m not suggesting that. I=E2=80=99m saying that before 2010 it had= a friendlier stance towards this non-commercial software. I don=E2=80=99t know why that was changed, but I would assume that people a= bused non-commercial licensing to trick people into using software for which they would have to pay to use commercially. But this is not the case here: The non-commercial cores do not offer an option to pay for commercial rights. They are non-commercial because this used to be the only way how you could release them without being sued by Nintento, Sega, Sony & co. > Moreover, the GNU FSDG states: > > A free system distribution must not steer users towards obtaining any > nonfree information for practical use, or encourage them to do so. Now the question is whether allowing them to obtain such information is encouragement or steering towards. I agree that if there are no cores packaged, so users are forced to use the online list to run retroarch at all is steering. However when this is not the easiest way to use retroarch, it is no longer steering them towards that. And if there are cores available, retroarch presents the cores first, along with license information (or at least it should display license information, since there=E2=80=99s already a license-line shown). > where "information for practical use" is defined as: > > =E2=80=9CInformation for practical use=E2=80=9D includes software, docu= mentation, > fonts, and other data that has direct functional applications. It > does not include artistic works that have an aesthetic (rather than > functional) purpose, or statements of opinion or judgment. > > I disagree with this, because I consider aestetics and and statements of opinion or judgement as functional, too. They function on the mind instead of computers, but they do function. This is why what I write is copyleft licensed where I have that option. But that=E2=80=99s another discussion. For what I=E2=80=99m saying in practice, see my other longer email. Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl3iXEgACgkQE++NRSQD w+sS1BAAivKLdXaFg8tjoA6n8vKU9bLiTXAYcboXaGtwq5p4mBQKAaox+4wUn2ny Z6DuusuE7jfpROdzSRTOWbyRwdX0vrpt/kQQfEzGDq3uWyf/UwLjr8fDXOo8KLOq /HymMYgCJXY7oOruGGv8bppRrX/C9t2uX7BUKLREDYVS0ShD2s+a2bkDABOoaLQK jXU8i/H7VW4BW0HSN5zBtJSWZ59Mdnwwi0rOCdGEj+W3qkuELhK3b0BbFoT80xtQ QwiWgiUzc2b7o7CXWhrfwUG2mTYEuxji/QrzRK7TitcJ2/ua5AYlXlWI9UjC+0IE YkIXqmKoLuit179I7n3TOyAefujZNgzOJmaecWF37vkBp0q3k0hmeuqg6NBFogoJ av04o/cAugpNwg/X8KWR0L8S3OckqO2XwyThn63iF+gKI97pg6iroFtU1rbk9+Kt HzGcFNIByCK00adyrn+AKberVm4zwJklxnXgopAJFug0DjkjlKdFYbtTZwX3rMwu e6ZmC8AElPWSB3Vz6yG08cLRwstMgpoNlcnBMKjwTdT5BjJhRN9VXKpsIXBuJnve UhKTUJ9VucgjI6+01Cqz1/JjNNUxidJ2IXDBOZ6w91Tjb1CplCdZHWr5Fk1keBbG 4WnEFzIIGXLwBViUQXbE7umGs/OHVI2IIoe0cyjDhRp3pBQY1u6IswQBAQgAHRYh BN0ovebZh1yrzkqLHdzPDbMLwQVIBQJd4lxJAAoJENzPDbMLwQVIPJQD/2iERxgn jHYr0/rbzADCc61ebYDmrWRWw8SIT0CewHMsfgyDlOkTUQWudiHM5/lrtXsxnlaA LvRc1Z4kx0Eung+D/v9pAnipLNyOavy8XnotuCrX5LcB4Sj44oDxcYsrGyo/lwUT K3FyA/mpLQ9kdUSXw0XHvEZqIEcmnHPTpjPl =xm3s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 30 16:20:20 2019 Received: (at 38360-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Nov 2019 21:20:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35189 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ibAA8-0004WS-4h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 16:20:20 -0500 Received: from tobias.gr ([80.241.217.52]:37092) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ibAA3-0004WA-MB for 38360-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 16:20:18 -0500 Received: by tobias.gr (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 8355f633 for <38360-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 21:20:13 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=tobias.gr; h=from:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type; s=2018; i=me@tobias.gr; bh=L0m02Chth8p0VAKqwLnAJK 4jhvLse1x8p9rEc7s/Ee4=; b=iArvp0vqIWST5ikylYynJo0Ru9rGIWKYhns2rS qw/AZqdXMjdv+UiTNiaAM4FFiI9PCB//MyxQmxliW+btVDrnr6pDd/xW7U6IIlan CKUgeqXdcp3ZlnWue+5kUjiCs9zafsMrnKJwpRBg2kqIYgj/eAlYj5OFFaRD5h91 ZDpnAD0Ci2t0kbuJamSJR7Gw7UNrYosIM15xDb1dUaducZLBG2woL4IlLLd/wUgn yo6REcNB82oCM1od41uYn/FPx8GTyrNmc5oraPIsRWanvqVFWLbrKyO1T6ACncyG nz3bRwI9o7Ef6KcNc84G2QsJSgCdepYhBYRLK+3yMI3ZabtQ== Received: by submission.tobias.gr (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id dadd4a64 (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO) for <38360-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 21:20:13 +0000 (UTC) From: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice To: 38360-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#38360: [PATCH] gnu: retroarch: Disable Online Updater [FSDG fix]. References: <87h82m908a.fsf@nckx> <20191129201439.3668-1-me@tobias.gr> In-reply-to: <20191129201439.3668-1-me@tobias.gr> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 22:20:12 +0100 Message-ID: <87a78dnjsj.fsf@nckx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nicol=C3=B2, Guix, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice via Bug reports for GNU Guix =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC= =9A > * gnu/packages/emulators.scm (retroarch)[source]: Add patch and=20 > snippet. > * packages/patches/retroarch-disable-online-updater.patch: New=20 > file. > * gnu/local.mk (dist_patch_DATA): Add it. That patch was incomplete, but I've pushed a similar fix as=20 775497549c6114ebdce57e787c94d5fedc368e49. I'm marking this as done. Let me know if there's anything I=20 missed. Kind regards, T G-R --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEfo+u0AlEeO9y5k0W2Imw8BjFSTwFAl3i3QwACgkQ2Imw8BjF STwgNA//drIs5qL3DyDZdszdcQYjVE1Tg+X/3wNwc5EZSwHSG92pO1TMr2k7LTwC gOj/TbUImvwUDu5G3S9WwyhYUauXqhEx8cq99VYOgxUXdyMBY7DrnWkm0R8lPvLF pBGTZrAtfKfvwWLGleRTMmm4I5NZya+FUKuhYF3/8cfVCBKAv3tJppSGpVgS8oGt stACQDRC2LE24H+GVFe5EyMTrMmK24GXhjnNFprJrORUvyJl1fcTaRmWFRDav4OB 8JzuZysmDUntQ5x2AbxgQR2orJixhAEIitv10QuCsGvfqhOpRrpkfWTtogkHKhte sJrdFv0Dyd/GHk5oXcebfHv2NhUjwD2yWQEPETZbI82CR/hv4hzC5rzbM2h5RQD0 GO4U7fUz9fx3OR5dhd9zhKALAZ8SuXpUc/vmBI8H1d+/sQzu8wSRSzq3RS0ygn5Z m2484B3eyPLi6c1M+NuP8yXdoK+aZDRZn03yxg3m9tHustxCYS9nZYnjCH9c7zV6 p4TUuRALM4gkyA20klKQvZ8MarqW5Kom53hltvjCaT3XxJRZEkkIsPEfr/snzZio WEw7EPYJ0u1SgnpLg42YebDfCmLpEI/ykgRagd/v1Xc7yvoJ8tm2rxpalDLXszPO pw3km85qEdBMv4+o8ODlHlkI0574W3izQhVWUNyfh74IJKDfvFY= =C4JJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 30 16:58:27 2019 Received: (at 38360) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Nov 2019 21:58:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35219 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ibAl1-0005b1-4t for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 16:58:27 -0500 Received: from tobias.gr ([80.241.217.52]:38374) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ibAkz-0005ao-2B for 38360@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 16:58:25 -0500 Received: by tobias.gr (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id c8c2eb82 for <38360@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 21:58:18 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=tobias.gr; h=from:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type; s=2018; i=me@tobias.gr; bh=E+YskCjEMEU7j8waN1D/XM XKVckX9xeCzP0KIoB8rOg=; b=OMYX6s9FGwr4u2euZVB7MWyqDzBGlRpR3SPSen u/ntxlxU4HE9xVlzGl0ZOmSZZuEfqMMD8GIsHioxfX6Di+Wq0AIBNsUXTN07+tfM 8sc0p1tfshyPTKKEopFsVVUef+fMZGNAJ+Z4xSaA/AIJJQ0DEyr1sXBWmfifcD24 pa/t1ARKWXyR1enc7T/sn104TFnpK9kLC3qF+kc/JMDSVQm0Q/HQS9wMKOAJRW7s VDoKyVccHtNa4EibKrPG7yOaOCQZWr+q/ccrQopueqaTMTpdbgMPkKr38p+Tbluc MJtMEEzjYPgnyjCNovZ5V2xhXm3fMYKK4/glhDfHqptu0ycg== Received: by submission.tobias.gr (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id efb33aaa (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO) for <38360@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 21:58:18 +0000 (UTC) From: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice To: 38360@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#38360: Retroarch might violate FSDG References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> <877e3lkpv9.fsf@web.de> In-reply-to: <877e3lkpv9.fsf@web.de> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 22:58:17 +0100 Message-ID: <877e3hni12.fsf@nckx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38360 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Arne, Arne Babenhauserheide =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > Aren=E2=80=99t we overblocking here? As of current master: very likely :-( Regardless of (y)our opinions on commerce and freedom, downloading=20 executables that violate GNU's own Free Software Distribution=20 Guidelines is simply not an option. However, it's very likely that I've now disabled more than=20 strictly necessary. Kind regards, T G-R --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEfo+u0AlEeO9y5k0W2Imw8BjFSTwFAl3i5fkACgkQ2Imw8BjF STxi2A/+PKZnSV8Z25QVq6nBiwNs70BRTe4nK35Naslr0rfmfPRyD5SuOAUOHR9N 4980E8RMGiuKM22jl2NjwB2FXz4Gs4psaDwxzAfICvgC5qR7OEJAZ4rnnanF3ict Re3vdFOxBOPVsHf7FSFlXLq5Nkvpo/NqBo2VVZQrYSLt8IF+ih/wznFYjjh0stdw bejR9t5Iqwc7pVfAARjJ+MtWCh8tBNQwkhFfSLaQL+28DhzYVs5GQhMguRljNRUX WvP7lOppSHnQmMo12FqkeUkJ2ka9sqgGEaH9D2g54iJcl/XQiHsoRHC9jgpHFclH 8J0gHvTadtVTfSNqN/j9nKCOU+glD7TfhKai3WN6H8QjsiJhqGWXmYh7nWRGMB7y IB8wXmdXblUuEz12VvcboSZRHErpO6AZoPT5s/Bf8IpnTJ+SA8r+q38PLEuEe5FA R2WulHy2lPt50kRqAyqEF3bEYp8ggSasFDSSlflEt4GIg1p/ENhEhrmm3UX5fiya 27qZWZ1ePn83nDs4B5c0oaWlO2N4c1AygzERAhpg/eQ9vRp1mGs1uMrR+gzoCI8/ dQ4e5WWD2u8JUUZSV9RZROclOg8NaHq+C2Vh0WbdvjuouHUuXrd8FkuIK55L1qvU /6Jc/Fl4q3JU7vd4tfLalDuGxhqB92bKiYbTqSf+i7TfS167pKE= =9zyD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From unknown Wed Jun 18 00:25:34 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. 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