From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 11 20:15:20 2019 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2019 01:15:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56174 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iUKm7-0004fV-VK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:15:20 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:48994) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iUKm5-0004fN-T0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:15:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58012) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iUKm4-0007QS-JP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:15:17 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iUKm3-0001iE-3D for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:15:16 -0500 Received: from gerbil.ash.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.222.67]:52802) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iUKm2-0001eP-AV for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:15:15 -0500 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D725E2033; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 01:15:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-92-150.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.92.150]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 887A95E1B2C; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 01:15:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a63.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Tue, 12 Nov 2019 01:15:08 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Slimy-Bubble: 3354d71b1c1115fd_1573521308785_1557486196 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1573521308785:1902269461 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1573521308785 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4909695F0B; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 17:15:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=jidanni.org; h=from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=jidanni.org; bh=Qecy1xdK2Le+8gwxR9 HQAPAbwE0=; b=MbbzKiKTFjtVADPSfztNf+4FalF/kZl5LxxVBdCe001ZH+nPr9 rezV2uDiWTUBQceJp41ILfrzO2IUErJrFjAprljWi4fPkDwiosY0CkhpaU8oiUEw 4XLEBRfiKjxdiQCD8HIzWn+F6klgjDqNUvf30x+bNplAC08+VPgJE319A= Received: from jidanni.org (114-46-62-142.dynamic-ip.hinet.net [114.46.62.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jidanni@jidanni.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 50E4495EFC; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 17:15:02 -0800 (PST) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a63 From: =?utf-8?B?56mN5Li55bC8?= Dan Jacobson To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: describe-variable: Also tell user *where* variable was changed Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:14:58 +0800 Message-ID: <87pnhxyjxp.8.fsf@jidanni.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 23.83.222.67 X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: yamaoka@jpl.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) ^H v w3m-command w3m-command is a variable defined in =E2=80=98w3m.el=E2=80=99. Its value is "/usr/bin/w3m" Original value was nil User thinks: Hmmm, it was changed I see. Where did the change happen? Did it get changed in w3m.el? But that's where it was first defined. So it wouldn't have happened there. He looks in .emacs . Wait, he doesn't even have a .emacs. He gives up. So you only tell him half the story. Either record at least the last place a variable was changed. Or don't tell him it was changed. emacs-version "26.3" . Yes, if he changed in by hand in his *scratch* buffer etc., even say that= too. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 11 20:19:13 2019 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2019 01:19:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56184 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iUKpr-0004lt-0A for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:19:13 -0500 Received: from host.gofardesign.uk ([208.79.239.190]:33590) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iUKpo-0004lg-0p for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:19:10 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=marxist.se; s=default; h=Subject:From:To:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Message-ID:Cc:MIME-Version :Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=+IlVT9Q2j8T/+C5iVfwISUvE5H/c+oVvomtTiE8J094=; b=evAGDzTqaQLjxZRQD3Ud96wG1l hZEmKz61nTXaZUqOki8Igo1khEg0UXemtl2Bs/X6Gk6mziLcAiu+TVDYDqXRkxNKJn60nQipoIovB Twz+0UawSwRxYkCQzAs5Mp9TK2yzYGWyqAi1FBH/bJJK54kZ9MX+pViDobm1nXG8rdfY=; Received: from h-70-69.a785.priv.bahnhof.se ([155.4.70.69]:37764 helo=localhost) by host.gofardesign.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iUKph-0003bP-NN for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 19:19:02 -0600 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 02:18:59 +0100 To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Stefan Kangas Subject: control message for bug #29495 X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.gofardesign.uk X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - debbugs.gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - marxist.se X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: host.gofardesign.uk: authenticated_id: stefan@marxist.se X-Authenticated-Sender: host.gofardesign.uk: stefan@marxist.se X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) forcemerge 29495 38173 quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 11 21:28:38 2019 Received: (at 38173) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2019 02:28:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56210 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iULv4-0008O7-JT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 21:28:38 -0500 Received: from cow.ash.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.222.41]:36603) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iULv2-0008Nw-5B for 38173@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 21:28:37 -0500 X-Sender-Id: tih5qno0ow|x-authuser|yamaoka@hampton.hostforweb.net Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4368C6A1CBC; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 02:28:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from hampton.hostforweb.net (100-96-92-150.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.92.150]) (Authenticated sender: tih5qno0ow) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 74F1C6A1E1E; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 02:28:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: tih5qno0ow|x-authuser|yamaoka@hampton.hostforweb.net Received: from hampton.hostforweb.net ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [172.245.115.217]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Tue, 12 Nov 2019 02:28:32 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: tih5qno0ow|x-authuser|yamaoka@hampton.hostforweb.net X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: tih5qno0ow X-Shade-Spill: 7f31a52f2579797a_1573525711913_1452323204 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1573525711913:3298293844 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1573525711913 Received: from s70.gtokyofl21.vectant.ne.jp ([202.215.75.70]:60000 helo=localhost) by hampton.hostforweb.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1iULup-00F7Bf-1j; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:28:24 -0600 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 11:28:20 +0900 Message-ID: From: Katsumi Yamaoka To: =?utf-8?B?56mN5Li55bC8?= Dan Jacobson Subject: Re: bug#38173: describe-variable: Also tell user *where* variable was changed References: <87pnhxyjxp.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Organization: Emacsen advocacy group X-Face: #kKnN,xUnmKia.'[pp`; Omh}odZK)?7wQSl"4o04=EixTF+V[""w~iNbM9ZL+.b*_CxUmFk B#Fu[*?MZZH@IkN:!"\w%I_zt>[$nm7nQosZ<3eu; B:$Q_:p!',P.c0-_Cy[dz4oIpw0ESA^D*1Lw= L&i*6&( User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (x86_64-pc-cygwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:SoKQXJoFsNkRL9iXXToi2lDgiqI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 X-AuthUser: yamaoka@hampton.hostforweb.net X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38173 Cc: 38173@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:14:58 +0800, =E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC Dan Jacobso= n wrote: > ^H v w3m-command > w3m-command is a variable defined in =E2=80=98w3m.el=E2=80=99. > Its value is "/usr/bin/w3m" > Original value was nil Please read the doc string for the reason why it is changed. > User thinks: > Hmmm, it was changed I see. > Where did the change happen? > Did it get changed in w3m.el? But that's where it was first defined. So > it wouldn't have happened there. w3m.el does it. I don't know why the original author designed it so to be changed from the default nil to a reasonable value instead of making it default to it. Anyway it will be changed if and only if it was nil initially; you can set it as you like. > He looks in .emacs . Wait, he doesn't even have a .emacs. > He gives up. > So you only tell him half the story. > Either record at least the last place a variable was changed. > Or don't tell him it was changed. > emacs-version "26.3" . > Yes, if he changed in by hand in his *scratch* buffer etc., even say that= too. I think it is very useful for debugging if I can see what changed it and when it was changed, though I also think it would cost. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 11 21:46:54 2019 Received: (at 38173) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2019 02:46:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56215 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iUMCi-0000Pb-6m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 21:46:53 -0500 Received: from caracal.ash.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.222.30]:5745) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iUMBT-0000NE-Lv for 38173@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 21:46:49 -0500 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D04B580D59; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 02:45:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-8-64.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.8.64]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 23E93580FF7; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 02:45:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a89.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Tue, 12 Nov 2019 02:45:31 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Trail-Society: 4918562f73132cd0_1573526731361_2135196822 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1573526731361:3171338360 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1573526731361 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D43BE80EB5; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 18:45:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=jidanni.org; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=jidanni.org; bh=GnlEt606hhwZl7yyNZ WPyM9EYHg=; b=n7I21tnxMsNhikq5XBK11mWcuFd09ZIqGiDIC1VMm42yH+b7/D bzas5mgcyNBKIhpKt0I1g+pCN/2pRhkkcBXjgNKtmRY/g8EfiNc28vaik+DwpHe+ ekcmsBLbilDlcKCmj5u++iBmk1sJMvDjnItYmMFvPG6q0q46ITGVb6xUQ= Received: from jidanni.org (114-46-62-142.dynamic-ip.hinet.net [114.46.62.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jidanni@jidanni.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5B09B80E98; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 18:45:25 -0800 (PST) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a89 From: =?utf-8?B?56mN5Li55bC8?= Dan Jacobson To: Katsumi Yamaoka Subject: Re: bug#38173: describe-variable: Also tell user *where* variable was changed References: <87pnhxyjxp.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 10:45:21 +0800 Message-ID: <878solyfr2.8.fsf@jidanni.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38173 Cc: 38173@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) OK, here is another example read-buffer-completion-ignore-case is a variable defined in =E2=80=98= C source code=E2=80=99. Its value is t Original value was nil It's like telling users "you transferred $123 from your bank account" but not telling users who they transferred it to. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 12 18:10:44 2019 Received: (at 38173) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2019 23:10:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58605 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iUfJ6-0000gq-JH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:10:44 -0500 Received: from smtp-1.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.34]:55867) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iUfJ5-0000gh-0Y for 38173@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:10:43 -0500 Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=55122 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-1.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iUfIz-0001CJ-Qi; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 12:10:37 +1300 Received: from wlgwil-nat-office.catalyst.net.nz ([202.78.240.7]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Wed, 13 Nov 2019 12:10:37 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 12:10:37 +1300 From: Phil Sainty To: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC_Dan_Jacobson?= Subject: Re: bug#38173: describe-variable: Also tell user *where* variable was changed In-Reply-To: <878solyfr2.8.fsf@jidanni.org> References: <87pnhxyjxp.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <878solyfr2.8.fsf@jidanni.org> Message-ID: <9a2ece93c5474cdd68e6f7253408dba8@webmail.orcon.net.nz> X-Sender: psainty@orcon.net.nz User-Agent: Orcon Webmail X-GeoIP: -- X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38173 Cc: Katsumi Yamaoka , 38173@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 2019-11-12 15:45, 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson wrote: > It's like telling users "you transferred $123 from your bank > account" but not telling users who they transferred it to. That's pretty crucial information for a bank transfer. Not so much for every arbitrary variable change (and I think you'd need to be making an incredible number of bank transactions for the analogy to hold up :) Logging every change of every variable made during the execution of a computer program might carry a noticeable cost, vs the absolutely tiny number of cases where the logged information would ever be inspected, so it's not obvious that this would be worthwhile on the whole? However, since 26.1 you can do this yourself on a case-by-case basis when you wish to investigate some particular situation. See: C-h f add-variable-watcher and remove-variable-watcher, and commands M-x [cancel-]debug-on-variable-change Some extremely basic logging without invoking the debugger might be something like: (defun var-watcher-backtrace (symbol newval operation where) "Used with `add-variable-watcher' to log details to *Messages*." (let ((frames (backtrace-frames))) (message "%S %S %S %S %S" symbol newval operation where (pp-to-string frames)))) (add-variable-watcher 'foo 'var-watcher-backtrace) I suppose the variable watcher mechanism could check another variable to decide whether to do the sort of "global watching" being requested here. Then users could turn the behaviour on if desired. -Phil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 12 18:28:22 2019 Received: (at 38173) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2019 23:28:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58620 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iUfaA-00016K-6P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:28:22 -0500 Received: from bisque.elm.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.212.18]:18706) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iUfa6-00016A-Kz for 38173@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:28:19 -0500 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 485653C08C1; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 23:28:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-6-183.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.6.183]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7658B3C0E00; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 23:28:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a87.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Tue, 12 Nov 2019 23:28:17 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Spot-Shrill: 7077b45f5fc713a9_1573601296730_3293917495 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1573601296730:2564479555 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1573601296730 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E9082C55; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 15:28:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=jidanni.org; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=jidanni.org; bh=+/c8QgbyxeqsNlYiK/Dj8fu8A7M=; b=WJDizdzpDJqnU DjZcN4Uzahdvt5cLUYJ0rFFEy3V2yFvoME7zeMFLmm9v3lnHY+ziqkOTxFEr/H8Q pxDAjudfW2PPSbJ8NW9URW5XNJXOntQh1LUrC5bcFdNVUmzxCMgQf314p0MEEYjs zO/APIlLRVPeytlj0aDquERKX8c4us= Received: from jidanni.org (114-41-29-7.dynamic-ip.hinet.net [114.41.29.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jidanni@jidanni.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5ADF482C4E; Tue, 12 Nov 2019 15:28:10 -0800 (PST) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a87 From: =?utf-8?B?56mN5Li55bC8?= Dan Jacobson To: Phil Sainty Subject: Re: bug#38173: describe-variable: Also tell user *where* variable was changed References: <87pnhxyjxp.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <878solyfr2.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <9a2ece93c5474cdd68e6f7253408dba8@webmail.orcon.net.nz> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 07:28:05 +0800 Message-ID: <87pnhwsmii.5.fsf@jidanni.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38173 Cc: Katsumi Yamaoka , 38173@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) (OK, it's like telling the user your current balance is $0, your original balance is $1000, and throwing out even the final record of what happened. At least don't tell him his original balance then.) Gasp, that var-watcher stuff is so complicated. How about: At the beginning of the user's .emacs: (setq tracked-variables LIST_OF_TRACKED_VARIABLES) And then if he later does describe-variable on one of them, he gets all the places and values that variable was set. The tracked-variables docsrting should warn: this is for debugging use only, and adds a burden... From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 13 04:19:37 2019 Received: (at 38173) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Nov 2019 09:19:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58836 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iUooL-0007C2-7K for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 04:19:37 -0500 Received: from smtp-1.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.34]:51129) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iUooI-0007Bs-Fa for 38173@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 04:19:35 -0500 Received: from [116.251.203.175] (port=64384 helo=[192.168.20.103]) by smtp-1.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iUoo9-0001yu-Ok; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 22:19:25 +1300 Subject: Re: bug#38173: describe-variable: Also tell user *where* variable was changed To: =?UTF-8?B?56mN5Li55bC8IERhbiBKYWNvYnNvbg==?= References: <87pnhxyjxp.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <878solyfr2.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <9a2ece93c5474cdd68e6f7253408dba8@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87pnhwsmii.5.fsf@jidanni.org> From: Phil Sainty Message-ID: <69ffb0e3-4616-4147-4888-cc2889694bb5@orcon.net.nz> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 22:19:25 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87pnhwsmii.5.fsf@jidanni.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-GeoIP: NZ X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38173 Cc: Katsumi Yamaoka , 38173@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 13/11/19 12:28 PM, 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson wrote: > Gasp, that var-watcher stuff is so complicated. Which bit? If you've unfamiliar with elisp then it possibly seems complicated, but if/when you learn some more about the language then I think you'll find that it's a very straightforward piece of code. The only bit that wasn't directly derived from the documentation at C-h f add-variable-watcher was the use of `backtrace-frames' (and pretty-printing that with `pp-to-string'). And the M-x debug-on-variable-change command isn't complicated at all, and would quite likely show you what you want to see. You just need to know debugger command 'c' to continue, 'q' to quit, and the M-x cancel-debug-on-variable-change command when you're all done. > How about: > At the beginning of the user's .emacs: > (setq tracked-variables LIST_OF_TRACKED_VARIABLES) Well for specific lists you could do something along the lines that I suggested, just for all variables in your list. I'm somewhat inclined to suggest that IF something like this was done, a global switch would make more sense. It still might not have the effect you wanted, though -- it's possible to change the apparent / user-facing value of some variables without changing the *actual* value of the variable at all. This is because of the internal structure of lists in lisp. A list variable points at a cons cell, and so long as it remains pointing at a given cons the variable has the same value; but this doesn't prevent the list (which is a chain of cons cells) from being altered. e.g. (defvar foo '(a b c)) => foo foo => (a b c) (debug-on-variable-change 'foo) => nil (setcar foo 'd) => d [no debugger was invoked] foo => (d b c) (setq foo (cdr foo)) Debugger entered--setting foo to (b c): (debug--implement-debug-watch foo (b c) set nil) (setq foo (cdr foo)) ... If you have some reference (maybe even a different variable) pointing into that list, you can change the list without Emacs ever seeing a change to the original variable. (This doesn't always happen, but it certainly *can* happen, and it might lead to you thinking that the proposed feature wasn't working, even if it was working as well as it could be expected to.) I think it's an interesting idea, which would be pretty neat if it could be made to work; but I don't know if it's practical, and I'm dubious that it could be comprehensive enough for your liking. -Phil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 13 10:07:09 2019 Received: (at 38173) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Nov 2019 15:07:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59964 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iUuEf-0004nY-3y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:07:09 -0500 Received: from cheetah.birch.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.209.34]:38293) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iUuEc-0004nN-Tg for 38173@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:07:07 -0500 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A737419B6; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 15:07:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-92-150.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.92.150]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D5549741958; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 15:07:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a66.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Wed, 13 Nov 2019 15:07:05 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|jidanni@jidanni.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Reaction-Abaft: 487a8dea26b316f0_1573657625106_3616227029 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1573657625106:4107388458 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1573657625106 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BBAF7EFD5; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 07:07:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=jidanni.org; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s=jidanni.org; bh=zrpkgPFlDBwbOS/3S/W589tXMiU=; b=UxJYt/qQI3y/v OFxktbnQnE9oraAbjnY7y0PfhQiOoMPGKwJQxq5NChIhZN0Lpb9n/ycW7oplnvy6 7hJ3fBQEANAe6DuVIBQpA8jsSGPoeXIVDyaa8RqCtjkHl/ND09faB8XL5rtzvGuq dImDiOHGptChGhOsULbehDEX4HA0Xk= Received: from jidanni.org (1-170-86-165.dynamic-ip.hinet.net [1.170.86.165]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jidanni@jidanni.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 89439A2379; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 07:07:02 -0800 (PST) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a66 From: =?utf-8?B?56mN5Li55bC8?= Dan Jacobson To: Phil Sainty Subject: Re: bug#38173: describe-variable: Also tell user *where* variable was changed References: <87pnhxyjxp.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <878solyfr2.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <9a2ece93c5474cdd68e6f7253408dba8@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87pnhwsmii.5.fsf@jidanni.org> <69ffb0e3-4616-4147-4888-cc2889694bb5@orcon.net.nz> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 23:06:57 +0800 Message-ID: <87v9rnx1bi.5.fsf@jidanni.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38173 Cc: Katsumi Yamaoka , 38173@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) This all has to be at the knowledge level of the user who has put his first setq in his first .emacs file. He uses describe-variable and is told some 3rd party has changed the variable too and wants to know who. PS> I'm somewhat inclined to suggest that IF something like this was PS> done, a global switch would make more sense. Indeed, the describe-variable docstring could mention: "if you want more details, set "global-variable-tracking" to t, and restart emacs. But note it will slow down emacs, so only use for debugging." PS> It still might not have the effect you wanted, though -- it's PS> possible to change the apparent / user-facing value of some variables PS> without changing the *actual* value of the variable at all. This is PS> because of the internal structure of lists in lisp... Sounds like a security / coverup risk. Maybe with the expensive global-variable-tracking turned on, describe-variable could double check for such tampering upon looking up a variable. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 13 17:56:47 2019 Received: (at 38173) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Nov 2019 22:56:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60437 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iV1Z9-00053B-8F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 17:56:47 -0500 Received: from smtp-4.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.59]:53845) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iV1Z6-000531-RE for 38173@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Nov 2019 17:56:46 -0500 Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=39003 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-4.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iV1Z1-0002og-M7; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 11:56:39 +1300 Received: from wlgwil-nat-office.catalyst.net.nz ([202.78.240.7]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Thu, 14 Nov 2019 11:56:39 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 11:56:39 +1300 From: Phil Sainty To: =?UTF-8?Q?=E7=A9=8D=E4=B8=B9=E5=B0=BC_Dan_Jacobson?= Subject: Re: bug#38173: describe-variable: Also tell user *where* variable was changed In-Reply-To: <87v9rnx1bi.5.fsf@jidanni.org> References: <87pnhxyjxp.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <878solyfr2.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <9a2ece93c5474cdd68e6f7253408dba8@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87pnhwsmii.5.fsf@jidanni.org> <69ffb0e3-4616-4147-4888-cc2889694bb5@orcon.net.nz> <87v9rnx1bi.5.fsf@jidanni.org> Message-ID: X-Sender: psainty@orcon.net.nz User-Agent: Orcon Webmail X-GeoIP: -- X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38173 Cc: Katsumi Yamaoka , 38173@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 2019-11-14 04:06, 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson wrote: > PS> It still might not have the effect you wanted, though -- it's > PS> possible to change the apparent / user-facing value of some > variables > PS> without changing the *actual* value of the variable at all. This > is > PS> because of the internal structure of lists in lisp... > > Sounds like a security / coverup risk. Maybe with the expensive > global-variable-tracking turned on, describe-variable could double > check > for such tampering upon looking up a variable. It's not "tampering". It's just the fundamental nature of lists in lisp (all dialects of lisp, AFAIK). You're only seeing it as a concern in the context of a feature which doesn't exist. It would, I think, be *dramatically* (perhaps prohibitively) more expensive to perform that kind of checking. This could no longer be done by the variable-watcher mechanism. In principle, every time ANY lisp object was modified at all, Emacs would need to check to see whether the object (pre- modification) was a value -- or a nested sub-component, to any arbitrary depth, of a value -- of ANY variable in the system, so that it could register that the change affected the user-facing value of that variable. -Phil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 14 01:28:14 2019 Received: (at 38173) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Nov 2019 06:28:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60774 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iV8c2-0007Rt-4Z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 01:28:14 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:50234) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iV8bx-0007RY-6J for 38173@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 01:28:10 -0500 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iV8bo-00014E-Mv; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 07:28:03 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Phil Sainty Subject: Re: bug#38173: describe-variable: Also tell user *where* variable was changed References: <87pnhxyjxp.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <878solyfr2.8.fsf@jidanni.org> <9a2ece93c5474cdd68e6f7253408dba8@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <87pnhwsmii.5.fsf@jidanni.org> <69ffb0e3-4616-4147-4888-cc2889694bb5@orcon.net.nz> <87v9rnx1bi.5.fsf@jidanni.org> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 07:27:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Phil Sainty's message of "Thu, 14 Nov 2019 11:56:39 +1300") Message-ID: <871rubotu8.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Phil Sainty writes: > It would, I think, be *dramatically* (perhaps prohibitively) more > expensive to perform that kind of checking. Yes, I think it's unrealistic (to put it mildly) to add something like this to Emacs, so I'm closing this bug report. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: ingebrigtsen.no] -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38173 Cc: Katsumi Yamaoka , 38173@debbugs.gnu.org, =?utf-8?B?56mN5Li55bC8?= Dan Jacobson X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Phil Sainty writes: > It would, I think, be *dramatically* (perhaps prohibitively) more > expensive to perform that kind of checking. Yes, I think it's unrealistic (to put it mildly) to add something like this to Emacs, so I'm closing this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 14 01:28:18 2019 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Nov 2019 06:28:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60777 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iV8c3-0007S7-Ve for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 01:28:18 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:50248) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iV8c2-0007Rg-5V for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 01:28:14 -0500 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iV8bu-00014O-Lp for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Nov 2019 07:28:08 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 07:28:05 +0100 Message-Id: <87zhgznf9m.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #38173 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 38173 wontfix close 38173 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 38173 wontfix close 38173 quit From unknown Sun Jun 22 03:57:37 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:24:08 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator