From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 06 13:39:23 2019 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Sep 2019 17:39:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37331 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i6ICh-0007G5-Bi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 13:39:23 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:39486) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i6ICg-0007Fy-B6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 13:39:22 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48598) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1i6ICf-0001Q1-6s for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 13:39:22 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FREEMAIL_FROM, SPOOFED_FREEMAIL autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i6ICe-0007m5-5c for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 13:39:21 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-x331.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::331]:36163) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i6ICd-0007lG-93 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 13:39:20 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-x331.google.com with SMTP id p13so8016970wmh.1 for ; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 10:39:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:subject:to:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ijPo440yvxG3TXbyrG6hwdspSnAYUWwcHXnvqJ9GNgM=; b=PX0YMV6rvakAUvjw5auaIRCTi5y3CDgSLEGMbDGz3+Sqx7s+cRL+68CmUmtJ7jogkX LfUDyRLYLMhrHQE0NoJsrX5mb5f51gABnrjxpCpouJFJyBGM5XPXR82w8QSlNH90G/Uy PfzY/KDCLxWzjI/Ai9lfTNWJveV+/OxPTTgj4JKFg2CajviApxvG5XKAXzeLkgc98Ebh vkKBfoFew7MqXzlI+1TnaCI7rIuHn0VxnjjndgRBo67JQM1xmCGBwVZoxYBDANuVVaKS g2UIOXDMtUxmmIVRz5cTrnoVuxMoELfGvxwY5hqnJVj27BdXaR1crvK0SdVqaO78eXF3 Wg6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ijPo440yvxG3TXbyrG6hwdspSnAYUWwcHXnvqJ9GNgM=; b=cbbdIsTkVALY7h0LSTlnpW5fefS7BrqNjVkx2vPEz6EmASkhFxx/59h4v7ZnudXvH+ xoD5odDM+1j6FxOViczH6xTdPbEoAa/MRFvTxFLyWujBveiNUBB88kWXRT7yVNEsB0vD 2qm734gaLVg6DI/0z4VB0Dd29Ed0ARcb4NvD2rj1ewH6jTuQtzxYs1LjuZLR0mYNby9q 4r6RGE7Ua+2jrmBB80Um70y0+gb7Obr7HKZuFz3IkwXhPmoap/awSp8Zan1tER6Tr/to MNYTqzz0TudSx+42iSFKUAvCZCjoSoPecoJ0g1RAKMRSCVtuWZ/lykuLmFspzs+eQp3B AJKw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVrHwKKeZvWYp+i8FFRsb7KNZ31Gcc7jtngphiv2mFLjkoo+JYW a/oRJHmV/XugyP9KrqGLo1DycGc/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxqMuHZSC4wgjVQc74AG+M0MWzDT2Wo8KGKwsryi8g6xTqIsCqTKgp4U/nT5MGzYtjYA7Cn8Q== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:2056:: with SMTP id p22mr7590127wmg.159.1567791557712; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 10:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2a00:f41:1c74:5201:35a8:ac6e:7139:5105? ([2a00:f41:1c74:5201:35a8:ac6e:7139:5105]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m62sm9749042wmm.35.2019.09.06.10.39.16 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Sep 2019 10:39:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Sebastian Urban Subject: Simplifying access to built-in tutorial To: Bug GNU Emacs Message-ID: <871696bc-745c-91d1-00cf-9e97291b6ae8@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 19:39:13 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::331 X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Hello, I would like to present an idea of simplifying tutorial access, which is described below. 1. Change 'help-with-tutorial' to act like 'help-with-tutorial-spec-language' by default. 2. Remove 'help-with-tutorial-spec-language'. 3. Change "Emacs Tutorial" in "Help" menu to "Emacs Tutorial...". - The "(choose language)" part won't be needed, because there will be no other tutorial entry, so even unsure people will have to choose "Emacs Tutorial..." (dots because of additional choice in the next step, convention?). 4. Remove "Emacs Tutorial (choose language)..." from "Help" menu. 5. Remove key binding to Tutorial, i.e. 'C-h t', as it won't be needed. - In the "Emacs manual" (Preface) there is "To run the tutorial, start Emacs and type C-h t." The problem is people may not know what 'C-h t' means, it's explained later in point "1.2 The Echo Area". So it will be easier to tell them to go to menu bar, which is by default in both GUI and TUI Emacs, and click "Help" and then "Emacs Tutorial...", which is why key binding is not needed any more. Of course this sentence will change to something like: "To run the tutorial, start Emacs and click `Help' in Menu Bar, then `Emacs Tutorial...' and choose language." 6. Update "Emacs manual" in like 3 places (search for "tutorial"). 7. Optionally list of languages could use native languages names instead of English names, e.g. "Deutsch" or "Deutsch (German)" or "Deutsch (GER)" instead of "German". - Unfortunately I'm not sure how well it would work with e.g. Chinese characters (slower loading time, because of the fonts). Also I don't know whether these names are defined in Emacs or are they read from the file name. If the former - redefine, if the latter - alias, i.e. Deutsch would point to file German? In the end access will be more streamlined. If someone wants tutorial in his native or different language - it doesn't matter. The path is the same - no additional code (and menu entries), no guessing language environment, etc. As a bonus, one more free key to bind to something useful, will be available. S. U. GNU Emacs 26.2 (build 1, i686-w64-mingw32) of 2019-04-13 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 06 14:18:25 2019 Received: (at 37327) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Sep 2019 18:18:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37348 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i6IoT-0008La-5S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 14:18:25 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47969) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i6IoP-0008LL-Uu for 37327@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 14:18:22 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45367) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i6IoK-0007yC-S2; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 14:18:16 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4122 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1i6IoK-0004ZU-AR; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 14:18:16 -0400 Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 21:18:16 +0300 Message-Id: <83v9u55lw7.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Sebastian Urban In-reply-to: <871696bc-745c-91d1-00cf-9e97291b6ae8@gmail.com> (message from Sebastian Urban on Fri, 6 Sep 2019 19:39:13 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#37327: Simplifying access to built-in tutorial References: <871696bc-745c-91d1-00cf-9e97291b6ae8@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37327 Cc: 37327@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Sebastian Urban > Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 19:39:13 +0200 > > I would like to present an idea of simplifying tutorial access, which > is described below. > > 1. Change 'help-with-tutorial' to act like > 'help-with-tutorial-spec-language' by default. > > 2. Remove 'help-with-tutorial-spec-language'. I don't think I like this, not at this time, anyway. English is still the main language for learning to use Emacs; the tutorials in other languages are mainly for people who have difficulties in understanding English to the degree that it gets in their way of learning Emacs. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 06 15:03:33 2019 Received: (at 37327) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Sep 2019 19:03:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37359 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i6JW8-00017o-PO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 15:03:33 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59946) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i6JW6-00017Y-Qz for 37327@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 15:03:31 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45995) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i6JW1-0007kF-G9; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 15:03:25 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2879 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1i6JW0-0003iK-9j; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 15:03:25 -0400 Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 22:03:23 +0300 Message-Id: <83tv9p5jt0.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: mrsebastianurban@gmail.com In-reply-to: <83v9u55lw7.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Fri, 06 Sep 2019 21:18:16 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#37327: Simplifying access to built-in tutorial References: <871696bc-745c-91d1-00cf-9e97291b6ae8@gmail.com> <83v9u55lw7.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37327 Cc: 37327@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 21:18:16 +0300 > From: Eli Zaretskii > Cc: 37327@debbugs.gnu.org > > English is still the main language for learning to use Emacs; the > tutorials in other languages are mainly for people who have > difficulties in understanding English to the degree that it gets in > their way of learning Emacs. Also, and perhaps more importantly, the English version of the tutorial is maintained by the Emacs developers, so is always up to date; whereas the translations are updated by translators if and when they become available, and so could potentially become outdated for some periods of time. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 07 05:20:49 2019 Received: (at 37327) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Sep 2019 09:20:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37524 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i6Wtl-000168-LW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 05:20:49 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f47.google.com ([209.85.221.47]:43479) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i6Wti-00015u-TN for 37327@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 05:20:47 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f47.google.com with SMTP id q17so4153277wrx.10 for <37327@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 02:20:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ew2NMsW+2WHjI19G5OoxIaqjA/e2oHnX8apDlD8ayH4=; b=uqP4T5QNIJlnJWfnXnSPf+6yBzU0lo3kOupSDAzG/5pYx0aq8lJNSw/ObQumHNpqZ0 kZmplUtkLbwAsZcIaFPjMhcu5lSzW+++6KfmagzfQnRofBkla6ya3JoenzYZfzJRssGf AhABMGKUufnGLWOnWfkYg0sEO+dsaXEK+ZJ+1+VYMGYI5ZfZyl/hv/E4XBYrgMDwj872 U7DilpqauZexa/0Sqkh80pSYcXSuKt7QqH5pwQdxbD0F+ryIu7hAD0WS2QY1T3ynkdVi z7Oes3+hymeYcjajjeDLpGW7nGW8n8Pn+o/kZOTHSHdkFULsPz/Q8PaUEuKDhkXJvDpZ cgGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ew2NMsW+2WHjI19G5OoxIaqjA/e2oHnX8apDlD8ayH4=; b=WTlxf7VKJECKZ3GRC4jU5GwkC1w1w1VFwuc/7SySbWV5U7OeWy5cXHrLJkXB/UPHtA J3Hg+BEAeMuA/1GVt67rp4uhBKGebAZJIB2X2L+yvPwRRl/5dkzrYBrXVerJcvvexUb+ U/tJzW4aHni9MgD1wNZIrvrC/YTf1uuWTpNc4yoN/UK6M6Wkdnrupg7zUhBjlhe9AshO vrod9cX79rgZ4WJETt9CL/HTrs/kTLesISRUc1oviw2Prk7vyEw0jse5uO0VEoyoptUi t/LV6o3A2Lc3AVPvIzXOMcMJNKmWFmDciKMV5Htd+qTsaDYTEGt1xIubo+4wWVeeH8W+ jbnw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU4OK8OKc5hGx0lLGQFyxGop0LE0784Y9mRQhsSy0X4FndHC9w6 ESFYWGPACCIMc3MEEa+Dg+9fe5yL X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzY8tzD0rqUKt7r2x/Lrmc1DpZOAES/EcYRdNQ+cfYp3GdfGRqEtaDw82fLNDcoGb5WaS4uow== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4e89:: with SMTP id e9mr9779808wru.48.1567848041186; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 02:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2a00:f41:18c5:b1d8:181b:3c1b:459c:5ae2? ([2a00:f41:18c5:b1d8:181b:3c1b:459c:5ae2]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e20sm13301037wrc.34.2019.09.07.02.20.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 07 Sep 2019 02:20:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Sebastian Urban Subject: Re: bug#37327: Simplifying access to built-in tutorial To: Eli Zaretskii References: <871696bc-745c-91d1-00cf-9e97291b6ae8@gmail.com> <83v9u55lw7.fsf@gnu.org> <83tv9p5jt0.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <11180519-e0ba-fa2d-0a17-60512bebc357@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 11:20:39 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83tv9p5jt0.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37327 Cc: 37327@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> English is still the main language for learning to use Emacs; the >> tutorials in other languages are mainly for people who have >> difficulties in understanding English (...) > > (...) more importantly, the English version (...) is maintained by > the Emacs developers, so is always up to date; (...) the > translations are updated by translators if and when they become > available, and so could potentially become outdated (...) 1. English version is still among languages. Additionally you could change its name to "English (default)" or "English (official)" to emphasize that it is recommended one. You could even add it as default argument - "Language (default English):". 2. If English version is the recommended way, then why 'C-h t' loads by default version that corresponds with user language environment, i.e. if I type it I get Polish version? If English version is most up-to-date it should be loaded by default no matter what (I think Emacs 25.2 behaved this way), and then the rest should be optional and only available through 'help-with-tutorial-spec-language'. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 07 06:25:46 2019 Received: (at 37327) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Sep 2019 10:25:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37559 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i6Xuc-0002lE-FN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 06:25:46 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39485) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i6Xua-0002kv-DG for 37327@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 06:25:44 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:57379) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i6XuM-0007KR-9Q; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 06:25:34 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3495 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1i6XuK-0007aK-HC; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 06:25:30 -0400 Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 13:25:28 +0300 Message-Id: <838sr05ron.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Sebastian Urban In-reply-to: <11180519-e0ba-fa2d-0a17-60512bebc357@gmail.com> (message from Sebastian Urban on Sat, 7 Sep 2019 11:20:39 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#37327: Simplifying access to built-in tutorial References: <871696bc-745c-91d1-00cf-9e97291b6ae8@gmail.com> <83v9u55lw7.fsf@gnu.org> <83tv9p5jt0.fsf@gnu.org> <11180519-e0ba-fa2d-0a17-60512bebc357@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37327 Cc: 37327@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Sebastian Urban > Cc: 37327@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 11:20:39 +0200 > > 1. English version is still among languages. But the user will have to select a language anyway, which is one more potentially annoying op. > 2. If English version is the recommended way, then why 'C-h t' loads > by default version that corresponds with user language environment, > i.e. if I type it I get Polish version? If Arguably, a bug. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 07 17:31:33 2019 Received: (at 37327) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Sep 2019 21:31:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38177 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i6iIv-0005NB-IH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 17:31:33 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f48.google.com ([209.85.128.48]:50439) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i6iIt-0005Gc-RS for 37327@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 17:31:32 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f48.google.com with SMTP id c10so9830755wmc.0 for <37327@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 14:31:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5e8en6Okers8ZPJtRg6Tw1gwpBXdQh92CTR/OnI/0CQ=; b=KbGyfMPLnRCiz+XZgILmIwjyd3SIBkbZHSN435LKm8BeA82vWsX4tb3FXLncfZSTw/ yihrAacq2s8IEg7N3R7p5dCfYeneo1O6iMtnpZLnenhpOFEmFQOQuCkIIRAz+z1ItV7+ cwSbqFS6RzeOkDLx8Q052ECLbLGh8hOD8Ymhn5ifyXCMtUpHWIOuDwSij81e4H6bx0gi g/iAR84q+MH0RZ+x3kgorCh6/zdO/A5rhr7vL+Po7HVoaiU6sPFuHlBlDpEH2Q6LeeFL 91/oBrf1na3CorbbjUtm2wTqFB0+JsBc/bAqP8OwrXDoPHpX1jS0Nv3kdKPJCU4Ro1QQ BLmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5e8en6Okers8ZPJtRg6Tw1gwpBXdQh92CTR/OnI/0CQ=; b=mXg4L6pKz90HMK0hrHSHsvNugeY/K6zitnSM8CpFiXuBVeXrVqdo+P0ox3Y1/18oPB dYdcuh6SDStAf5AD2XzStRpVa+CBv5gJszuxdj/idK3c8eV9ict/7t39WJLb6EDirUrk k/xFptnuHzQnZUU5sfN5WQ6UmqqBqmEFf7B+Lw0KKIvArPnZ7P3j+S4zyuXt6nyMEcie QvqgwnkRm6NsqON6uMCTv7jxXAFXlXapuSrJoQLjSt8YDulf4Yg4kGVTX5aoQNgJroRH TeSI4pnwbGQdSNTCZ/i7qixeUpt8NR6OGFLGY3xNuGcSQc8wU8owuiJ6VS5rKEXHJTad Xulg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWZrkIs19XFOsYWTkTDyGAlTy/PdpiUWMqfhJU+b2sDZ+4Er6MG 1GyXSIgpPt2m95D0UfUX8exTDMENBssTf3er X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxNuxonxzd5g7gCeoDGQsGOBR7aQ4m8AJpCmRGwIiGgLLWByeHoh4iBFgiMYR4QKForVyIJIg== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:7a11:: with SMTP id v17mr13245941wmc.39.1567891885831; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 14:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2a00:f41:1cae:b041:90df:5475:6184:6e6? ([2a00:f41:1cae:b041:90df:5475:6184:6e6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k6sm19948156wrg.0.2019.09.07.14.31.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 07 Sep 2019 14:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#37327: Simplifying access to built-in tutorial To: Eli Zaretskii References: <871696bc-745c-91d1-00cf-9e97291b6ae8@gmail.com> <83v9u55lw7.fsf@gnu.org> <83tv9p5jt0.fsf@gnu.org> <11180519-e0ba-fa2d-0a17-60512bebc357@gmail.com> <838sr05ron.fsf@gnu.org> From: Sebastian Urban Message-ID: <9eca2c14-cee4-9c79-9afc-0ae463970ad6@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 21:31:21 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <838sr05ron.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37327 Cc: 37327@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > But the user will have to select a language anyway, which is one more > potentially annoying op. We are talking about beginners and activity that'll be done... once? I cannot find a reason why clicking "Emacs Tutorial..." then selecting language (including English) would be annoying - it will be, in case of "Language (default English):", typing RET. I do find it logical: 1st - select tutorial, 2nd - select language. Plain and simple. >> 2. If English version is the recommended way, then why 'C-h t' loads >> by default version that corresponds with user language environment, >> i.e. if I type it I get Polish version? If > > Arguably, a bug. Well, I'll wait and see where this thread will go, before I submit another bug report. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 22 17:00:21 2021 Received: (at 37327) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2021 21:00:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51853 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT9Lp-0003iV-3U for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:00:21 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:34082) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT9Lk-0003i3-Dh for 37327@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:00:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=qrmUE0HS/ECYw2hjGicWNrKNBBIzRKljLBIJTGOuKzs=; b=juheQEA5sqYvZhdmroMuIiqfrT ThlsKyp73aAzTy/K8uT8ed8JwJ7IyRwDUhCmWvgwABNhIHP6wbvTh4w0CDgZhQeCr6S+gPY8wfz/W 5vwMKflNINMAxS5AlQlUIz0KPmb4Q8sttifreRFQN9GzaYJvkekNG8693vPosS0WMv+o=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mT9LY-0007GV-Go; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:00:08 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#37327: Simplifying access to built-in tutorial References: <871696bc-745c-91d1-00cf-9e97291b6ae8@gmail.com> <83v9u55lw7.fsf@gnu.org> X-Now-Playing: Don Armando's 2nd Avenue Band's _Don Armando's 2nd Avenue Band_: "Deputy of Love" Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:00:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83v9u55lw7.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 06 Sep 2019 21:18:16 +0300") Message-ID: <87pmt0s4vh.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: > I don't think I like this, not at this time, anyway. English is still > the main language for learning to use Emacs; the tutorials in other > languages are mainly for people who have difficulties in [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37327 Cc: Sebastian Urban , 37327@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: > I don't think I like this, not at this time, anyway. English is still > the main language for learning to use Emacs; the tutorials in other > languages are mainly for people who have difficulties in understanding > English to the degree that it gets in their way of learning Emacs. I think the conclusion here is that we don't want to change this, so I'm closing this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Sep 22 17:00:24 2021 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2021 21:00:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51855 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT9Ls-0003ij-A8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:00:24 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:34098) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mT9Lo-0003iA-AH for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:00:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=yStO1ulnmDW7Btc5y7aMAHWnvKVpleWqf8GfKNLaDeI=; b=Q0oEW/BaACCHTb7vImVouiz/u+ LBrH+m2fz2NRiAI3ouqWLgm8jlhZaZt1yWi5mjM826qmFQb3ZVNphKaQrjgitmTuF8ONRU1+871oy GzJrF6h+MkEdA1L2UpgnealOQ13ZZ6/BfktHKGgoPGIjYoH6pN8OYz9j3pr8DJnpBjgk=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=elva) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mT9Le-0007Ga-Mq for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:00:14 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:00:10 +0200 Message-Id: <87o88ks4v9.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #37327 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 37327 wontfix close 37327 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tags 37327 wontfix close 37327 quit From unknown Mon Aug 18 15:38:44 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 11:24:06 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator