From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 02 02:13:03 2019 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2019 06:13:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57440 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i4faJ-0007EX-ES for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 02:13:03 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:43387) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i4faH-0007EE-MJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 02:13:02 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46898) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1i4faG-0006BW-5l for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 02:13:01 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i4faE-0000Yq-K5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 02:12:59 -0400 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:39977) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i4faD-0008UA-Fw for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 02:12:58 -0400 Received: from protected.rcdrun.com ([::ffff:31.223.149.110]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 00000000000320ED.000000005D6CB2C7.00002B53; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 23:12:22 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1001) by protected.rcdrun.com with local id 00000000000C0FB7.000000005D6CB2C5.00005554; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 08:12:21 +0200 From: Jean Louis To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 27.0.50; Menus "About GNU" and "GNU and Freedom" to be made offline X-Hashcash: 1:20:190902:bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org::3ZYaYLOFGl1AvcPb:00000000000000000000000000000000000000001o/B Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 08:12:19 +0200 Message-ID: <864l1vw7jw.fsf@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 217.170.207.13 X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) Under the Help menu, the last one, {C-h g} or "About GNU" is made as a link to https://www.gnu.org/gnu/thegnuproject.html just as it is within the page "About Emacs" in the line: "GNU and Freedom" (hyperlink) - Why we developed GNU Emacs and the GNU system. >From a view point of user located in Western developed countries, this may be alright, as many are simply used to Internet availability. Internet is not available in majority of this world. Students in East Africa, Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Rwanda, they use computers so often without any Internet connection. With the Emasc installed, they will simply miss to understand "About GNU" and "GNU and Freedom" titles as Internet is not opening. As that article is pretty much static, and Emacs being pretty much software for offline usage, I think that all menu items and such offline information shall stay offline. Within the offline page "About GNU" or "GNU and Freedom" one could place a link for the user to visit the online page if necessary. Thus keeping online links in the offline menu of Emacs editor is not appropriate, as it will not give information to those users without Internet. In GNU Emacs 27.0.50 (build 4, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, Xaw3d scroll bars) of 2019-08-31 built on protected.rcdrun.com Repository revision: 172b99a43ab60dac29eb09231246793a1ab32343 Repository branch: master Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11906000 System Description: Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre Recent messages: For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a. mwheel-scroll: End of buffer [3 times] mwheel-scroll: Beginning of buffer [2 times] Contacting host: www.gnu.org:443 uncompressing publicsuffix.txt.gz...done Mark set delete-backward-char: Text is read-only [2 times] user-error: Beginning of history; no preceding item Configured using: 'configure --prefix=/package/text/emacs-2019-08-31 --with-modules --without-gpm --with-x-toolkit=lucid PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/home/data1/protected/GNUstep/Library/Libraries/pkgconfig:/usr/lib/pkgconfig' Configured features: XAW3D XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG SOUND DBUS GSETTINGS GLIB NOTIFY INOTIFY ACL GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE HARFBUZZ M17N_FLT LIBOTF XFT ZLIB TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS LUCID X11 XDBE XIM MODULES THREADS JSON PDUMPER LCMS2 GMP Important settings: value of $LC_ALL: de_DE.UTF-8 value of $LANG: de_DE.UTF-8 locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix Major mode: Fundamental Minor modes in effect: tooltip-mode: t global-eldoc-mode: t electric-indent-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t tool-bar-mode: t menu-bar-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t blink-cursor-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t buffer-read-only: t line-number-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t Load-path shadows: None found. Features: (shadow sort hashcash mail-extr emacsbug message dired dired-loaddefs rfc822 mml mml-sec epa derived epg epg-config mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail jka-compr cl-extra help-mode gnutls network-stream url-http mail-parse rfc2231 url-gw nsm rmc url-cache url-auth eww easymenu mm-url gnus nnheader gnus-util rmail rmail-loaddefs rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mail-utils wid-edit mm-util mail-prsvr thingatpt url-queue url url-proxy url-privacy url-expand url-methods url-history url-cookie url-domsuf url-util url-parse auth-source cl-seq eieio eieio-core cl-macs eieio-loaddefs password-cache json map url-vars mailcap shr text-property-search puny svg xml seq byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile cconv dom format-spec time-date subr-x cl-loaddefs cl-lib browse-url tooltip eldoc electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel term/x-win x-win term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode elisp-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core term/tty-colors frame cl-generic cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite charscript charprop case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray minibuffer cl-preloaded nadvice loaddefs button faces cus-face macroexp files text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbind inotify lcms2 dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting x-toolkit x multi-tty make-network-process emacs) Memory information: ((conses 16 139046 8792) (symbols 48 9912 1) (strings 32 40188 2623) (string-bytes 1 1137589) (vectors 16 15715) (vector-slots 8 242378 10698) (floats 8 55 82) (intervals 56 16881 190) (buffers 992 14)) -- Thanks, Jean Louis From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 02 19:43:21 2019 Received: (at 37267) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2019 23:43:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59078 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i4vyj-0001lH-6D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 19:43:21 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47511) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i4vye-0001kr-LC for 37267@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 19:43:19 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:42973) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i4vyZ-00082T-8r; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 19:43:11 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1i4vyW-0007JK-ET; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 19:43:08 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: Jean Louis Subject: Re: bug#37267: 27.0.50; Menus "About GNU" and "GNU and Freedom" to be made offline References: <864l1vw7jw.fsf@protected.rcdrun.com> X-Spook: Chobetsu NOC domestic disruption Coast Guard Dateline X-Ran: Q2^wi@RBlxsEzJjJyCQ[}VeGfX2bu},&Oe-|aN{^gb%lp:N(T\WloD[UE;Y()&?tbl![X@ X-Hue: magenta X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 19:43:07 -0400 In-Reply-To: <864l1vw7jw.fsf@protected.rcdrun.com> (Jean Louis's message of "Mon, 02 Sep 2019 08:12:19 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37267 Cc: 37267@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) We made the opposite decision 5+ years ago, ref eg 00156f9549. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 02 19:43:30 2019 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2019 23:43:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59081 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i4vys-0001li-Fd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 19:43:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47539) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i4vyr-0001lT-Es for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 19:43:29 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:42975) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i4vym-0008Bm-9b for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 19:43:24 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1i4vyl-0007Mi-Lo for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 19:43:24 -0400 Subject: control message for bug 37267 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.99.98) Message-Id: From: Glenn Morris Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 19:43:23 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tag 37267 wontfix From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 03 00:56:29 2019 Received: (at 37267) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Sep 2019 04:56:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59177 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i50rk-00049N-UH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 00:56:29 -0400 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:53421) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i50rj-00049A-2k for 37267@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 00:56:27 -0400 Received: from protected.rcdrun.com ([::ffff:31.223.149.154]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 00000000000320E7.000000005D6DF274.000017F6; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 21:56:20 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1001) by protected.rcdrun.com with local id 00000000000C0FB7.000000005D6DF272.000051D2; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 06:56:18 +0200 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 06:56:18 +0200 From: Jean Louis To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: bug#37267: 27.0.50; Menus About GNU and GNU and Freedom to be made offline Message-ID: <20190903045618.GA20783@protected.rcdrun.com> References: <864l1vw7jw.fsf@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37267 Cc: 37267@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Glenn Morris [2019-09-03 01:43]: > > We made the opposite decision 5+ years ago, ref eg 00156f9549. Sure somebody made such decision in past. Is that to keep up with the ever changing online page? I think that Emacs version is changing more often then the referenced pages. And I am thinking for dissemination of the message that is referenced by those URLs, in fact I am worried for that, as I know from first hand that so many students do not have access to Internet. At least not always and not from every computer. I also know they use Emacs from relation with some of those students in East Africa. Speaking just out of personal experience. I can see that those files were removed out of the offline distribution: * etc/CENSORSHIP, etc/GNU, etc/LINUX-GNU, etc/THE-GNU-PROJECT, etc/WHY-FREE: This happened, so it seems to me, out of the idea that everybody has Internet. It would be more beneficial would it stay in the distribution, and that menus are offline available. Or that menus would point to online links only when there is Internet available, that could be double option. Files like GNU-PROJECT and those others, they need not be Emacs specific to be with the Emacs, there is nothing wrong it it. It is spreading free software idea. Does the removal of those files point to some statistics that files were not contributive to free software idea? I remember myself reading similar files in /etc back in 1999 and "getting the idea", and I did not find it on Internet neither looked for it on Internet. Think about what is beneficial to spread the message of free software. Even if you made decision in past, you can still make new decision in present. Jean From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 03 01:35:40 2019 Received: (at 37267) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Sep 2019 05:35:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59189 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i51Tf-0005Is-Lv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 01:35:40 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40429) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i51Td-0005Id-KQ for 37267@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 01:35:38 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:47035) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i51TV-0000Sz-Ug; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 01:35:30 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1i51TV-0006or-2r; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 01:35:29 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Jean Louis In-Reply-To: <864l1vw7jw.fsf@protected.rcdrun.com> (message from Jean Louis on Mon, 02 Sep 2019 08:12:19 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#37267: 27.0.50; Menus "About GNU" and "GNU and Freedom" to be made offline References: <864l1vw7jw.fsf@protected.rcdrun.com> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2019 01:35:29 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37267 Cc: 37267@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] We used to include copies of such articles in /etc. I removed them, thinking that it was better to refer to the web. I wanted to remove something from the Emacs distro that I thought was superfluous. Based on what you've just said, maybe we should include copies of the most important articles in the Emacs distribution, as before. Perhaps we should also include https://gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html and https://gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 03 02:01:36 2019 Received: (at 37267) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Sep 2019 06:01:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59224 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i51sm-0005v0-Da for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 02:01:36 -0400 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:45385) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i51sk-0005un-8Y for 37267@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 02:01:35 -0400 Received: from protected.rcdrun.com ([::ffff:31.223.149.154]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 00000000000320F4.000000005D6E01B8.00001D69; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 23:01:28 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1001) by protected.rcdrun.com with local id 00000000000C0FB7.000000005D6E01B7.0000554B; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 08:01:27 +0200 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 08:01:27 +0200 From: Jean Louis To: Richard Stallman Subject: Re: bug#37267: 27.0.50; Menus About GNU and GNU and Freedom to be made offline Message-ID: <20190903060126.GA21659@protected.rcdrun.com> References: <864l1vw7jw.fsf@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37267 Cc: 37267@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Richard Stallman [2019-09-03 07:36]: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > We used to include copies of such articles in /etc. > I removed them, thinking that it was better to refer to the web. > I wanted to remove something from the Emacs distro that I > thought was superfluous. > > Based on what you've just said, maybe we should include > copies of the most important articles in the Emacs distribution, > as before. > > Perhaps we should also include > https://gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html > and https://gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html. Please think of the time when Emacs was distributed on CD, or diskette, people did not have Internet. It was for many a line to find out about the free software. All those distributions and dissemination of free software was targetting mostly developed countries. I remember in Germany 1997-1998, it was hard to obtain the set of GNU CDs, and even then, just few of them were available in the major library, and quickly sold. Today in Western countries, more or less, free software has got it place and position in space and time, and it is politically recognized within European Union, well known in North Americas and I would say to good degree in South Americas. If I think just of 3 countries in East Africa, Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania, that is already about 150 million people, about little less than half of the US population, and free software is almost unknown. Yes, many people have smart phones there, but Internet is expensive for many students, and they have no possibility to access those menus with Internet links. Emacs is still mainly offline editor, thus offline Help and "About GNU" shall give the offline resource, not online resource. And if online resource is important, than one can make 2 menus, one online, one offline. The menu item "About GNU" points to https://www.gnu.org/gnu/thegnuproject.html I consider "The GNU Project" important for those professors in universities which could be the driving force to convert all university into free software and understand how it can impact all the country. >From Western viewpoint, maybe every school has access to Internet, but that is not so. Universities in East Africa often do not have their fixed phone lines, unspoken from Internet lines, and may be far deep in the jungle where no fixed Internet line comes in. Busitema[1] university is just after the Busitema forest[2], resources are scarce in the area, student live in campus and live on little money. If we think of people who do not have Internet, at least not all the time, we shall provide them with offline articles, such as "About GNU" in the main Emacs menu, under Help, which is major one to understand the roots of free software. We should look from viewpoint of those new areas in the world where nobody knows about free software, where proprietary is not dominant, we could rather say "almost absolute". Jean Footnotes: [1] http://www.busitema.ac.ug [2] https://ugandatourismcenter.com/place/busitema-forest/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 13 08:26:36 2019 Received: (at 37267) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2019 12:26:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44504 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i8keq-0004U7-DO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 08:26:36 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f174.google.com ([209.85.210.174]:33381) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i8ken-0004Tu-Si for 37267@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 08:26:34 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f174.google.com with SMTP id q10so17995036pfl.0 for <37267@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 05:26:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=shok+fHaKLvBF/vEkyTqr/cwTBFTu/RIZDVorF7FKq0=; b=R+R5RCBO97Z07QZ46J/slOPdjLrbT70+PD5BW7zg7wewe/SnsUzT7Gc1a6orMc4SX0 GyXo7/WDZs9AlxlufZnWh0P0eFauJOGuVs/zON8SGB88zC7In8szcsZVhTQYs1oIfPIc s+cUd3tw+rhrI9c1JfS2K2UDCVdIDgxnBsci1/AHh7M2ARr1AnYfYsrw/7wn43b4H4xG yhYk9Nq6Dh/QZ1LLfEW2Cq7UEkXLZDzb5pCKCtyAXsXiqnIOVAlnjuS7dvFNoWXn0vi1 3b1LXOYrSJPi9THQ1H5jFfrbvXKQ8aGzVrqr1kP694+3dOWWZCpkw6Bw58EbLIiqP6e+ Lz6w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWGDoF/vc9EgiYvrnraq5eZaR6xD8expwH3WcRqu/xMhJQ5ZMb5 LfruLcuf6eZ09uYVnbBd5Q0FG6Z4A156oBFPHn4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxQ2aN0rsMjohPWhzmPuSt2Z2VPHISXHgvVPxh8sAMWko1kTQwpJ9QzPttyntH0+sX4+IB7k3Nz1G4/ClYls24= X-Received: by 2002:a63:69c1:: with SMTP id e184mr41214595pgc.198.1568377588155; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 05:26:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <864l1vw7jw.fsf@protected.rcdrun.com> In-Reply-To: From: Stefan Kangas Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 14:26:17 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#37267: 27.0.50; Menus "About GNU" and "GNU and Freedom" to be made offline To: Richard Stallman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37267 Cc: 37267@debbugs.gnu.org, Jean Louis X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Richard Stallman : > We used to include copies of such articles in /etc. > I removed them, thinking that it was better to refer to the web. > I wanted to remove something from the Emacs distro that I > thought was superfluous. > > Based on what you've just said, maybe we should include > copies of the most important articles in the Emacs distribution, > as before. > > Perhaps we should also include > https://gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html > and https://gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html. I think that makes sense. Are there any objections to removing the wontfix tag? Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 16 01:53:48 2019 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Sep 2019 05:53:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49052 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i9jxL-00070i-N1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 01:53:47 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f177.google.com ([209.85.210.177]:43797) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i9jxK-00070W-Av for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 01:53:46 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f177.google.com with SMTP id a2so3268788pfo.10 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 22:53:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=vgc2Nimzyj02k5i/Y9NZZc3RvL7QQ4cgrUs7IGyg+0E=; b=XNgK2wmCoDgT43w/F9+NPfD5HyeYgNOqvftN7KSninzmENJrLrcnTC7WCNXMFHHo2a 52WtZ/yoWoQfJAERyASh9H6xiVEUupSCBJAtcD9tWBUpcnC7/u4wAJvON9DHLEBl4tL/ Pww3xLiWRn8G6jmtadzgrCkSGKyBUMloH/oopwo/9b5CL7tVeBWk8MOCb+pJ1dzbhfEZ Gk9gl+ooI2VO27su2A9DGTpwhjMaifqDoBOa8gTdvYqAlyX1H6XEyzyctJUtzkAvhBE2 LcbX3I3Gm2/GVmnTo1nn1lJvosmxdEF67yuU8ATjCXyW7eyJUEsqhkZeS0AJS6j8629L rGZw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVP4iRnyjQ+mUpmqV2Hd4Fnn4ot8LUAh2y79jxDCCdGMED7kxch h4z8PcAqICh2T5tFupKw69oZ26+ZMQu3IrQ+oCW8xVHkXs0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzNg0IUDuQ6Y9CDZaVJX0AAhGwhVEnjfehRJEIranep2lfQqNSiVuAusaiLYbT9GlXOszwD919bODvFz3FI3Hs= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8005:: with SMTP id j5mr69426179pfi.50.1568613220301; Sun, 15 Sep 2019 22:53:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Stefan Kangas Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 07:53:29 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: bug#37267: 27.0.50; Menus "About GNU" and "GNU and Freedom" to be made offline To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) tags 37267 - wontfix close From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 16 21:17:59 2019 Received: (at 37267) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2019 01:17:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51402 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iA27z-0003k7-57 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 21:17:59 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53537) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iA27w-0003jt-T0 for 37267@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 21:17:57 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:60060) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iA27r-0001SE-Mz; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 21:17:51 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1iA27n-0007iw-UL; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 21:17:48 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#37267: 27.0.50; Menus "About GNU" and "GNU and Freedom" to be made offline References: <864l1vw7jw.fsf@protected.rcdrun.com> X-Spook: enigma Disaster medical assistance team Methamphetamine X-Ran: nTD5\H#/hehJT*ws&/3 (Stefan Kangas's message of "Fri, 13 Sep 2019 14:26:17 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37267 Cc: 37267@debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman , Jean Louis X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Kangas wrote: >> Perhaps we should also include >> https://gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html >> and https://gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html. > > I think that makes sense. Are there any objections to removing the > wontfix tag? Yes, why should Emacs have to distribute these files (after no objections to a 5-year removal process), as opposed to any other GNU project? Why not make a separate project collecting said docs and encourage GNU/Linux distributions to make it a binary dependency (or suggested package) for all GNU packages? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 17 01:31:06 2019 Received: (at 37267) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2019 05:31:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51483 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iA64v-0003io-Ie for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 01:31:06 -0400 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:43725) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iA64s-0003iK-GY for 37267@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 01:31:03 -0400 Received: from protected.rcdrun.com ([::ffff:31.223.149.84]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 000000000006E35F.000000005D806F90.00004288; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 22:30:56 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1001) by protected.rcdrun.com with local id 00000000000C18DC.000000005D806F8E.00002D17; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 07:30:54 +0200 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 07:30:54 +0200 From: Jean Louis To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: bug#37267: 27.0.50; Menus About GNU and GNU and Freedom to be made offline Message-ID: <20190917053054.GL22470@protected.rcdrun.com> References: <864l1vw7jw.fsf@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37267 Cc: 37267@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas , Richard Stallman X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) * Glenn Morris [2019-09-17 03:18]: > Stefan Kangas wrote: > > >> Perhaps we should also include > >> https://gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html > >> and https://gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html. > > > > I think that makes sense. Are there any objections to removing the > > wontfix tag? > > Yes, why should Emacs have to distribute these files (after no > objections to a 5-year removal process), as opposed to any other GNU project? > > Why not make a separate project collecting said docs and encourage > GNU/Linux distributions to make it a binary dependency (or suggested > package) for all GNU packages? Emacs is probably main GNU package, it is popular and helps in disseminating the information about GNU project since its beginning. I am sure that is why those files like "About GNU" are included in the Emacs, as it is main prominent and very necessary GNU package, there were not so many software programs in the beginning, software like Emacs was used to disseminate GNU information, and I hope it remains so forever. This bug was to change menu from the online URL to the static text to be displayed within Emacs, that contains the online URL, for reasons that majority of this world still does not have proper Internet connection and thus menu item remains not accessible. It relates to last menu item in Help menu "About GNU" (the URL) so that the text "About GNU" can be shown within Emacs and without online connection. It is little different subject which files shall be distributed with the Emacs distribution. Those files make it quite informative and have brought number of users to GNU project, there are jokes and other informational files in Emacs distribution. Jean From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 17 02:27:48 2019 Received: (at 37267) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Sep 2019 06:27:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51534 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iA6xo-0005LS-Jm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:27:48 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58309) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iA6xl-0005L7-Vi for 37267@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:27:46 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:36155) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iA6xg-0006CA-O4; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:27:40 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1iA6xd-0005f5-Om; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:27:37 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Glenn Morris In-Reply-To: (message from Glenn Morris on Mon, 16 Sep 2019 21:17:47 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#37267: 27.0.50; Menus "About GNU" and "GNU and Freedom" to be made offline References: <864l1vw7jw.fsf@protected.rcdrun.com> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:27:37 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37267 Cc: 37267@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se, bugs@gnu.support X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Yes, why should Emacs have to distribute these files (after no > objections to a 5-year removal process), as opposed to any other GNU project? It is not a matter of "have to". It is useful and costs very little. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 10 02:41:37 2022 Received: (at 37267) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2022 07:41:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53626 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nI45B-00026L-0L for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 02:41:37 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:44980) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nI458-000262-HL for 37267@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 02:41:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=FLNYAlt3FYCuQ/CGL1uISoQ1SOeJ78HEKGtlEZKjS/U=; b=snFde70nwocB551VyxWr669g2j Ed2AJclgw7QyktQCSkcN+P/Zo096XMFqq/gTBCMsT5JjA1QHpK651e9s5y6eId/MC2J2jyinxbl8E pXNefJh79h96Gss8mCvvmkWFrJwi5iCovYKYusDElfZ32mVwfeEMBFgQ8WgUflv8Uc8E=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=giant) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nI44y-00042g-Rv; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 08:41:27 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Glenn Morris Subject: Re: bug#37267: 27.0.50; Menus "About GNU" and "GNU and Freedom" to be made offline References: <864l1vw7jw.fsf@protected.rcdrun.com> X-Now-Playing: Melanie de Biasio's _No Deal remixed_: "No Deal (Seven Davis Jr Remix)" Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 08:41:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Glenn Morris's message of "Mon, 16 Sep 2019 21:17:47 -0400") Message-ID: <87k0e3cgnx.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Glenn Morris writes: > Yes, why should Emacs have to distribute these files (after no > objections to a 5-year removal process), as opposed to any other GNU project? I don't think there's much point in including these files in the Emacs distribution -- they're general, and having them in a central place is makes more sense. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37267 Cc: 37267@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas , Richard Stallman , Jean Louis X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Glenn Morris writes: > Yes, why should Emacs have to distribute these files (after no > objections to a 5-year removal process), as opposed to any other GNU project? I don't think there's much point in including these files in the Emacs distribution -- they're general, and having them in a central place is makes more sense. So I'm closing this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 10 02:41:42 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2022 07:41:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53629 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nI45G-00026e-7O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 02:41:42 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:44992) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nI45E-00026D-6g for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 02:41:40 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=b1mWoa9dRQaCH2D5ja/wuvi+RqsHX2+2A2JKurECxac=; b=mbGsDXOSxd5vXkuG1Zt+U3AlxL mYdNWu6mJ5RXYWZZCP9rJRoa1ZZcQ8AvXhJYsKYjLAmAPlywwGrZmDVYvGJRBavo2O+FvrdpzrvFQ osM4TAd41hG/OJwQuaaY4xLiia76hplINvSes7CrtXpFZZg0Bm1CuGxtKpWgRw4xTK/0=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=giant) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nI455-00042q-Q5 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 08:41:34 +0100 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 08:41:31 +0100 Message-Id: <87iltncgno.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #37267 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. 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Content preview: tags 37267 wontfix close 37267 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tags 37267 wontfix close 37267 quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 10 03:55:43 2022 Received: (at 37267) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2022 08:55:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53901 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nI5Et-0007YO-6d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 03:55:43 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:38687) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nI5Er-0007Y7-3n for 37267@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 03:55:41 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.239.6.75]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000067F38.000000006204D305.00002017; Thu, 10 Feb 2022 01:55:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2022 11:52:00 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: bug#37267: 27.0.50; Menus "About GNU" and "GNU and Freedom" to be made offline Message-ID: References: <864l1vw7jw.fsf@protected.rcdrun.com> <87k0e3cgnx.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87k0e3cgnx.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Mutt/2.1.5+104 (cd3a5c8) (2022-01-09) X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: * Lars Ingebrigtsen [2022-02-10 10:41]: > Glenn Morris writes: > > > Yes, why should Emacs have to distribute these files (after no > > objections to a 5-year removal pr [...] Content analysis details: (2.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 2.6 RCVD_IN_SBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus SBL [197.239.6.75 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE No description available. X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37267 Cc: Glenn Morris , 37267@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas , Richard Stallman X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: * Lars Ingebrigtsen [2022-02-10 10:41]: > Glenn Morris writes: > > > Yes, why should Emacs have to distribute these files (after no > > objections to a 5-year removal pr [...] Content analysis details: (1.6 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 2.6 RCVD_IN_SBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus SBL [197.239.6.75 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE No description available. -1.0 MAILING_LIST_MULTI Multiple indicators imply a widely-seen list manager * Lars Ingebrigtsen [2022-02-10 10:41]: > Glenn Morris writes: > > > Yes, why should Emacs have to distribute these files (after no > > objections to a 5-year removal process), as opposed to any other GNU project? > > I don't think there's much point in including these files in the Emacs > distribution -- they're general, and having them in a central place is > makes more sense. You are developer of Emacs in developed country. From your viewpoint it is easy to forget that majority of this world does not have Internet access and they are unable to access "central place" which implies it is place on Internet. I am in under-developed countries on projects. Reason for the request is that distribution of Emacs and GNU is going on in these countries by means of DVD ROMs, and not by means of Internet. Same is for movies, they are purchased as DVD ROMs, rather than downloaded as about 99.9% of people do not have a fixed Internet access, they use it over their mobile connection provided they do have a smart phone and know how to connect to computer. Majority of those people earn less than 80 dollars per month and don't pay for Internet access. Those students here use GNU/Linux but not necessarily have Internet, they make their reports, works, etc. If I just speak of one country here, that is about 45 millions of people, if I speak of 3 countries in East Africa there are 150 millions of people, and there is 54 countries on the African continent. Then there are countries such as those in Central and South America, and Asian countries. We use here Internet cafes, something that you may not be able to find in your country easily as of today. They disappeared from developed countries. Majority of the world is much less developed and have difficulties to access Internet including to download easy any software they want. This statement may be much contrary to what you perceive of the world. Travel around and get acquainted. But computer users do pay for their software on DVD ROMs and that is how GNU/Linux is installed. If you only assume you are developing Emacs for developed countries, you have got a valid point. I would deem such development rather discriminatory and not helpful from teaching viewpoint. If you put those files inside of Emacs, waste number of people will get access to learn about GNU and free software. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 11 22:57:41 2022 Received: (at 37267) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2022 03:57:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33086 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nIjXY-0002Ve-NP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2022 22:57:40 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42666) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nIjXW-0002VR-Nr for 37267@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2022 22:57:39 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=51104 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nIjXQ-00028j-SL; Fri, 11 Feb 2022 22:57:32 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=ncIGlfErDSIm9hcRLjmoFbBnG0jTS2ZgCHE1xFp7Vfg=; b=rDD6Rswsaj1h x0DL05o6ukq8YoaC/BCVEM9TuJtAayI7fZ1ZrQEpnmr0DoFdC3O5LgRpWCKN0AAPqjpucsSSKviaT Kwp8wbvXr0GMlFuaOwenkfMQ3Idz91qazmqpc2upNhLoAESflTn7i6btmU31hybHbfb8jP0423yID lZ4Pz6Dxp5xOnPb6jHNehRXAg3z7WA8/XOHKDdtkJeWZgQ+2PVN5/jgHyuCxbOAM5ipE2Vcqqh8ys go3RfMIm1jTtrg2Q5YMr4RtFNJYmLsznOGnRlm5LrOhldDDJ63JCXfBlSZWL4GVIlkIyaHNZP4Z8w WIy/bpGnEUA4YU975uDPaw==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nIjXQ-0005CN-8A; Fri, 11 Feb 2022 22:57:32 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Jean Louis In-Reply-To: (message from Jean Louis on Thu, 10 Feb 2022 11:52:00 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#37267: 27.0.50; Menus "About GNU" and "GNU and Freedom" to be made offline References: <864l1vw7jw.fsf@protected.rcdrun.com> <87k0e3cgnx.fsf@gnus.org> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 22:57:32 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37267 Cc: rgm@gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org, stefan@marxist.se, 37267@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] I originally put those articles into GNU Emacs because GNU Emacs was the only thing that the GNU Project distributed. Over the years, more general articles about GNU were added. Then, in the 2000s, we figured that we may as well refer to these articles on www.gnu.org. In principle, we can use either method or both at once. It's not an ethical question, just a practical one. But now that we see there are potentially many people who would benefit from included copies -- and that this would substantially spread awareness of GNU -- I think we should include them. It takes very little maintenance work. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Sat Jun 21 03:30:02 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 12:24:09 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator