From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jul 28 02:08:55 2019 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jul 2019 06:08:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45652 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrcMZ-0005tC-An for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 02:08:55 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:35896) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrcMW-0005t4-Sa for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 02:08:54 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36480) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrcMV-0008K5-U6 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 02:08:52 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hrcMU-0004XT-S9 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 02:08:51 -0400 Received: from fmfe26.onbox.hu ([46.107.16.231]:19963 helo=web-out.onbox.hu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hrcMU-0004Dy-99 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 02:08:50 -0400 X-fm-smtp-source: yes Received: from localhost (localhost [94.21.75.83]) by web-out.onbox.hu (Postfix) with SMTP id 45xC7D0RPCz7B7 for ; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 08:08:39 +0200 (CEST) From: ndame Message-ID: Subject: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4831_1758910365.1564293830666" To: "bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" X-AccountId: 57978162 X-Originating-Ip: 94.21.75.83 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 08:08:39 +0200 (CEST) X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: 0 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrkeekgdduudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdcuhfftgffgofetkffnnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhephffkufggtgfvihffsegrtdersgdttddunecuhfhrohhmpehnuggrmhgvuceovghmrggtshhushgvrhesfhhrvggvmhgrihhlrdhhuheqnecukfhppeelgedrvddurdejhedrkeefnecurfgrrhgrmhephhgvlhhopedpihhnvghtpeelgedrvddurdejhedrkeefpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepvghmrggtshhushgvrhesfhhrvggvmhgrihhlrdhhuhdprhgtphhtthhopegsuhhgqdhgnhhuqdgvmhgrtghssehgnhhurdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=simple/relaxed; t=1564294120; s=20181004; d=freemail.hu; h=From:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type:To:Date; l=1119; bh=1M0UAvuOQR/qNyPMohXuXfNHp0L8sZ7rsEU/HpSKCh0=; b=d7PyuSqYYD28ZcwE4VTzLjeha1ACMFXlD1+EOdmoNAJA/bYXtVdBZv7UZpXCR0Ah FjcYMC1rnJVPcsYKEOwA6idF7P/chiE9IEUW51XML31PUUEr6rH19Qc9POtMQzHa0XU FWaMuUWrVnIzZexLK/sBLY+L3WSByy1QTKyFh6KAcCoodZRNlyyH35XxRj8nUXaVtvv ePchrDJal2fQzzXmOIIanm5UtrYuRjMMvgjqNu4yabSN1KjjivkFLHm+2LQC2VS/fQB Sk1VhPq1jtlHiyLh0uZzF7rQiuX8CiGvg3aInGkyTVVbG1U3QYjcUI43nJ9W07JJgI4 8oQBc03yZw== X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 9.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 46.107.16.231 X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) ------=_Part_4831_1758910365.1564293830666 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When doing a C-h v the Help buffer shows the value of the variable and also its documentation. Bind the currently unused key 'e' to edit the variable's value, maybe in a separate popup buffer if the value is complex. E.g. the user presses e, the value pops up rendered in editable lisp format, the user edits it in place, presses C-c C-c and the variable is set to the new value. ------=_Part_4831_1758910365.1564293830666 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When doing a C-h v the Help buffer shows the value of the variable and also
its documentation.

Bind the currently unused key 'e' to edit the variable's value, maybe in a separate popup
buffer if the value is complex. E.g. the user presses e, the value pops up rendered in
editable lisp format, the user edits it in place, presses C-c C-c and the variable is set
to the new value. ------=_Part_4831_1758910365.1564293830666-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jul 28 12:51:39 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jul 2019 16:51:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47067 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrmOZ-0005jY-FN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 12:51:39 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:47936) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrmOY-0005jI-8b for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 12:51:38 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x6SGmufw109409; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 16:51:30 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=DRtPNmLtX8zWY5ItBaftjef0v0FBecQjdxsSeDMyWr8=; b=sBcJZ5hBwVVXZpkZSsCIETaUtbTLWlakEckCELzo6y/ZRXZeKhn3KHs+dJUBFIlBHg8U kUrCNhaIRDvoQzZOgitl38L1FUS9AKiBlR19+RfYzYigOOf3CfVlVHOQIh77tiYfbryH gjL+FNNNvTfnGRfBYFQoURyBoG0W7UisMasVgXm1GIUs4HEZGI52i8BbeOPzCebgfgp3 7sc94EpCy7VRPCv7yzgFcz6SCJRe5tAmxQ2sks0imBB/gpIGbr8T4SD+kun+ibh2pCPp b9W4+ekgNFFcpI+Ns/EoSvvo41RRJZL+xCNMNELuM9CvcU9XxRicJhBY2WjfNfbW1TNm nA== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2u0f8qkq7m-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 28 Jul 2019 16:51:30 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x6SGmxbG082577; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 16:51:29 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2u0ee3g4yf-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 28 Jul 2019 16:51:29 +0000 Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id x6SGpSIP007930; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 16:51:29 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <5bc15f7a-d0aa-47fd-b8be-9f6892673063@default> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 09:51:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: ndame , 36826@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4873.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9332 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=875 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1906280000 definitions=main-1907280211 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9332 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=929 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1906280000 definitions=main-1907280211 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > When doing a C-h v the Help buffer shows > the value of the variable and also its documentation. > > Bind the currently unused key 'e' to edit the > variable's value, maybe in a separate popup > buffer if the value is complex. E.g. the user > presses e, the value pops up rendered in > editable lisp format, the user edits it in place, > presses C-c C-c and the variable is set > to the new value. I would say this isn't really needed or that helpful. (Just one opinion.) 1. If the variable is a user option then: a. `*Help*' already shows a link to the Customize buffer, which is the proper place to change the value (and possibly save it). b. With the cursor on the option name in `*Help*', `M-x set-variable' defaults to the option name. 2. If the variable is not a user option, it may be buffer-local. Does the user want to set the value in the current buffer or set the default value of the variable? The behavior is different. 3. It's not hard to use `M-: (setq ...)' or `M-: (setq-default ...)' to set the new value. And it's not hard to copy the current value to the `setq(-default)' sexp and edit it there. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jul 28 13:54:08 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jul 2019 17:54:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47092 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrnN2-0007Wp-Cb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 13:54:08 -0400 Received: from fmfe13.onbox.hu ([46.107.16.206]:13013 helo=web-out.onbox.hu) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrnMz-0007WE-6v for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 13:54:06 -0400 X-fm-smtp-source: yes Received: from localhost (localhost [195.38.106.209]) by web-out.onbox.hu (Postfix) with SMTP id 45xVn15jK9z52L; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:53:57 +0200 (CEST) From: ndame To: Drew Adams , "36826@debbugs.gnu.org" <36826@debbugs.gnu.org> Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5bc15f7a-d0aa-47fd-b8be-9f6892673063@default> References: <5bc15f7a-d0aa-47fd-b8be-9f6892673063@default> Subject: Re: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_13950_1393962933.1564336200686" X-AccountId: 57978162 X-Originating-Ip: 195.38.106.209 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 19:53:57 +0200 (CEST) X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: -100 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrkeelgdduvddtucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpucfhtffggffotefknfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephffvkfgjfhfugggtihffsegrtdersgdttddunecuhfhrohhmpehnuggrmhgvuceovghmrggtshhushgvrhesfhhrvggvmhgrihhlrdhhuheqnecukfhppeduleehrdefkedruddtiedrvddtleenucfrrghrrghmpehhvghloheppdhinhgvthepudelhedrfeekrddutdeirddvtdelpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepvghmrggtshhushgvrhesfhhrvggvmhgrihhlrdhhuhdprhgtphhtthhopegurhgvfidrrggurghmshesohhrrggtlhgvrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=simple/relaxed; t=1564336438; s=20181004; d=freemail.hu; h=From:To:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Date; l=2199; bh=A66t/lf3hB160VAORp/+qse9M3wQ2NeAur+bMPmbvgA=; b=d4q92VEhPiJXaSsc7SCcWlOv/KFlgnQM5Oq8ZOkGCPwdpqd0bQxojvtD+lcRl6v1 Neu/ZCn3loEisDHr4bjrbSs8SC27u116yaUUlCYu8EaC2FzzCsdbU5po2ZXDb1KzSAP TJXpuO193NwsEYl7pFlv+OGcCxseTjercIXZBEnvei5OFEwj/mt/jFs6n9VvURcQYWm IUPlHv5Eo/S/AlhVWEb5MsnpSpsrmW/+ZBR16SUt7Wgz2Z/YPNc4gxkGriwWYmu+/me /MQrBHob7SzAn7icBVVWaSPxitrOjarNCAd66wBZMmdKbsaJjR6DhSqMc08SYkLPttg TGhs84Oz7g== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------=_Part_13950_1393962933.1564336200686 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I would say this isn't really needed or that helpful. Well, I say it's needed and helpful. :) Not necessarily for basic users, they can use customize, but for advanced u= sers who know lisp well and prefer setting the values themselves, instead of navigat= ing customize. I check variable values all the time and I often want to change them, and i= t's bothersome to copy the name and the value, when emacs could do it for me. A human shou= ld not do what a computer can do automatically and in this case it's pretty easy for = the computer to read the value and set the variable to it. It could even copy the settin= g afterwards in lisp form to the=C2=A0 kill-ring in case the user wants to further experime= nt with it, or copy the setting to the init file. If a variable has a buffer local value then it can ask if I want to set the= local or global value. =C2=A0 ------=_Part_13950_1393962933.1564336200686 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would say this isn't really needed or that helpful.

Well, I say it's needed and helpful. :)

Not necessarily for basic users, they can use customize, but for advanced users who
know lisp well and prefer setting the values themselves, instead of navigating customize.

I check variable values all the time and I often want to change them, and it's bothersome
to copy the name and the value, when emacs could do it for me. A human should not do
what a computer can do automatically and in this case it's pretty easy for the computer
to read the value and set the variable to it. It could even copy the setting afterwards in
lisp form to the  kill-ring in case the user wants to further experiment with it, or copy
the setting to the init file.

If a variable has a buffer local value then it can ask if I want to set the local or global value.

  ------=_Part_13950_1393962933.1564336200686-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jul 28 14:01:20 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Jul 2019 18:01:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47096 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrnU0-0007ll-8D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 14:01:20 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:59340) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrnTy-0007lX-HN for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 14:01:18 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=stories) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hrnTs-0006Sr-AG; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 20:01:16 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: ndame Subject: Re: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 20:01:12 +0200 In-Reply-To: (ndame's message of "Sun, 28 Jul 2019 08:08:39 +0200 (CEST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: ndame writes: > Bind the currently unused key 'e' to edit the variable's value, maybe > in a separate popup buffer if the value is complex. E.g. the user > presses e, the value pops up rendered in editable lisp for [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: 36826@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ndame writes: > Bind the currently unused key 'e' to edit the variable's value, maybe > in a separate popup buffer if the value is complex. E.g. the user > presses e, the value pops up rendered in editable lisp format, the > user edits it in place, presses C-c C-c and the variable is set to the > new value. I think this sounds useful. I'm often rooting around not quite sure what variable I'm looking for in the help buffers, and trying different values, and having a command to make this faster would be nice. There's `customize-variable', but I... just don't like it. (And besides, not all variables are customisable...) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 29 00:00:19 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jul 2019 04:00:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47504 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrwpf-000705-C9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:00:19 -0400 Received: from mail-io1-f52.google.com ([209.85.166.52]:40654) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrwpc-0006zm-Ez for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:00:17 -0400 Received: by mail-io1-f52.google.com with SMTP id h6so30479246iom.7 for <36826@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 21:00:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tcd-ie.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=35myEXZ0WHzU36+lSd2OWWfKDA2tOH7Nqs+ckobCSNc=; b=FQ5++YPCBoZftH3dOg/4TORskdBVArohu1FqPH6npHvuJm/M5kb9WgH0pXDP5trpiq Kd8fGmKart/fbrD1hJReIyd9cppR0OwwqpVe14L12gIhpQHhktEoscfpPQWsLoQD8sf3 Aw27Vdu9w7+1zM8VD1kgmpv8S/1iHs9lJeDuYVSorKyZ9hmq0G2oqbwVj3e86zxjKWxO fAL1T0hWq9byW7/UQpvqI3s6/06SR7JBotxPW19d68Tb4vFnaB8dd7KffHo9bxKfUmBg y9+RDMZd/g5OY5kHYVOj6k5s4sjS3bFCUNsA+g/FPVAAerm1wbvyABrdOQWQa4CH9+WY HFJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=35myEXZ0WHzU36+lSd2OWWfKDA2tOH7Nqs+ckobCSNc=; b=CKKyWMhYs65ZAVqmVyM0RZEQhHII9Z/qhR/bADl6kqetJqjDFwSEBu7YTK7szDkOm2 9PKMwxvUH2L46YLrEjvnnms13bV/WbxuveU1MArLMX+Xu/BcWYyScfc7VErc1CC3Uln3 mFpC9y6/2kF7EmoyWyyDAiTOJ1qvtMht0xX3BE1y0dLQN0PTonEWZUL1M7k5ZJfF3jPq d+dSy9Om1DGbUJgCYdgf0Q51uMlCcZhB0IREMBTrKSVKtmCR/V2oHxvqLpB7Ju0G7TXC 883INMGbTmjj5YtQKKJFy49bNknuuanTFu5zrou4mIoViogO+Pd91Jfm5hbv9fJ5fu6R JkAg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXCKNlcmSpceGcT1gHErLk7dOyxR2nY12uuEnyGiQPvS6BhgxQQ RUbP9nMlsAv9lbnaUpXmQyNL2A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyx+rxJMUmD6E4FLZKLVnr+7VOvK6uFHYlEJwdsOx7rvbkWN5HIQTV4qqpZkDrqJWBdG9w8+Q== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8e08:: with SMTP id e8mr20210071iod.139.1564372810630; Sun, 28 Jul 2019 21:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([82.141.252.177]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f17sm58098070ioc.2.2019.07.28.21.00.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 28 Jul 2019 21:00:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 05:00:07 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 28 Jul 2019 20:01:12 +0200") Message-ID: <87v9vljxrs.fsf@tcd.ie> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: ndame , 36826@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > ndame writes: > >> Bind the currently unused key 'e' to edit the variable's value, maybe >> in a separate popup buffer if the value is complex. E.g. the user >> presses e, the value pops up rendered in editable lisp format, the >> user edits it in place, presses C-c C-c and the variable is set to the >> new value. > > I think this sounds useful. I'm often rooting around not quite sure > what variable I'm looking for in the help buffers, and trying different > values, and having a command to make this faster would be nice. There's > `customize-variable', but I... just don't like it. (And besides, not > all variables are customisable...) There's also M-x set-variable, which inserts the current value of the variable when you type M-n. Perhaps all that's needed is for set-variable to also detect the variable described in the current *Help* buffer, and offer it as one of the default variables to set, following the value of variable-at-point (which is the current default). -- Basil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 29 00:28:53 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jul 2019 04:28:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47510 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrxHH-0007dy-1H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:28:53 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:35095) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrxHE-0007dk-KY for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:28:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1564374519; bh=Epq48QGocLP4rSsno+k2rjxYOcq1BpeIf5QaGOPg9jg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Qzrdmjn+3ZjDs9dWpJMPW9WNTMpt0QtvgB25OmTHRRadLS+wIvsiPg5tBD3ivQsC4 iBsrlOt4gw7Fmd7fGYsINmixTvxHR87iwzn+6WeuUJ0D6LQ9qr37ZRZcE/AtpKhrCa ZQph5OJHw6s5h9F87UjFzafw49ZaVXPNZcsTTYps= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.208.178.242]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb001 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MPGym-1hnXQF0bhI-004Pyd; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 06:28:39 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: Re: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 06:28:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 28 Jul 2019 20:01:12 +0200") Message-ID: <87a7cx4g7f.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:DJ7tQ/Y0WDEPX/hSYp8+hvsuclMFFLc55eLbgPIFW0BQHTpRVsc 3cEnPjEMFXcknWjVA4Yyf119nohdplnM0LRjKWk/ItcDNvDKl4sE5NGjf9ueoPruK7R+wUL yF4IdZOcr1tuIPvKjJVuhe7lRk0F9u63AP/wA4V8LAQckoUz0TDilDHAIsBsUAz5fhdJ8Q3 BCqJu0+aep9dVfeR2aQVg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:DSrr8AY3f8I=:vJB25w3P3+oEthTS40Y45a /IjAmltxEiFOA2H7Vng06Edp2ZlfqPWxVfbCHTjhGfsxFdJD3Xuo3PpKiW6n5LLbC81EA9qC8 FDKF475dLwo41HF1UULu0WsWMzMv5B5Mq725ElgSmxo6MdkFtdHh2LawuugfC2io8U5hUO7vD LCkDvxeUaC1Mg9rLT0qQZ7mPuYqE74vfb6ALmUuqmrBmlqnniqC9HdSAcKVpQZvnz86OzsIEm /g1jLWRjXpcI8lDu3B6m46kgquk3p+Jq0Pd33/Ip/IMiiWt0bmh9RQ9AlMWlBeCDdISYKI+SU rSt6kRWYsFbLMzITvpq5A6RgH8Re7g4gxZDwMWGpmpNvYcDM96VV/xCMhmwpVVqJ2PKvEdGSy sOzQV7Xir6dzxDTwSH/01HEksP4d8rtdReQsrgyTkTTwN7UgzGnwok9K4FqFOOBWnVmL8CYcZ LA/89ghGvkif0/8+s9dLEgCBR0tPAzEpyilTYl7HcuIf9EXjKz093Tpkmgilvc7ADgkuZldsv JprKN6ay1JqzbpJhYS0xDDpdBq7MOmP7muxU/ndfq1N1gzy8zd1KVgixKDtm4DJA6AQrkwZHB IUKuxltUqGcaeX9LZhznfF37AJ5r0pKeJWOBrBez1hMK0BraoUmvTQ/cDCxYMEM6chpUgI/MH 5X64o4fX8cZQaOWHgOGsKuKiAiSky30Sn5/gBS6+Hi7LfzyBxlgUk0Rlpu3xnNHAtLB8os695 3amj6KwX+5vTOj34TbRD7R1llgizBTgqk/K59nyHLrEiiGzLYYUKC72TFxJIbtoTkSXPn6ibz SWFu3wBwdml6M7eCg9NusExQfFeyPu4aDWSxbkr3I1WrGW6HZ8tx8MXWkA6Ab3UKldyHHgXrw 2KLXSQqfukkG+/UWmJAJtIY3snUwUj1d0bOYO1YVlZlsJ7w4ohWQMybl42kBUqf9Bpm+0bbnI yMg6YaIt88gVTGB9LFCnj+JfcWBa0uH7OJ1pJ6fTCgtxpVNIti6Pd9UhgtQ5OmAZ/Cc7yoH87 5ZuumBAzokEI1S5o/nDdf2KFpB8I4jJMXTNEf59azTvG5Bu6GYZGk0yXlQiAKEHLCcPMydKo0 G7BtW6jxRbVCeOniEfu5qDX6wl2tfm853lq X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: ndame , 36826@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > I think this sounds useful. I'm often rooting around not quite sure > what variable I'm looking for in the help buffers, and trying > different values, and having a command to make this faster would be > nice. There's `customize-variable', but I... just don't like it. > (And besides, not all variables are customisable...) There are also some downsides: - Changing variables might break Emacs if you are not knowing what you are doing. Customize at least has some safety checks. Users might not expect that clicking on the button and changing values might have dangerous consequences. Likewise, Emacs might change or modify the value and users wonder why their setting had been "rejected". With other words: it is potentially dangerous and might confuse users. - It is no fun for variables with complicated values, like large lists of lists. Just a minibuffer prompt would not be nice. Here you probably still would use scratch or so. And even in the situation you described, I would prefer having an expression in scratch, edit and eval it, compared to clicking a button in the help buffer and edit in the mb or a popup buffer. - There are nitpicks which may complicate doing what at first sounds simple, e.g. what if the value includes things were printing and reading comes into play? E.g. buffers: they have a print syntax, but it's not a read syntax. Objects may be replaced by equal objects (e.g. lists will be recreated) which might confuse Emacs. There is buffer local vs. global bindings of variables (and hooks), etc. But my main point is the question if we should really invite the typical user, which is not an Emacs developer (ok, here I'm not really sure if I'm right) to change variables on the fly, or if it's not better if these users are directed to customize, and the others use just M-: or ielm or what they use now. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 29 00:35:47 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jul 2019 04:35:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47516 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrxNy-0007pV-Mk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:35:46 -0400 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:38872) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrxNw-0007pI-GS for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:35:45 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x6T4Y3lM141157; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 04:35:38 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=NkLf2zdn0WOVuAJLGQDTREkpEMLvCKcP7Jhth+Ynks4=; b=J96vFyonER0gC294BR13wvw/EcDX1RCNzrWiR6inFuD7L1uCsZ35jBsHJkgrpqU7loLK viF99dzmrpiJqbuGSFIJ8y9WwMfsrlS/s/V+DsOaLguvBZbmYrU8XUPhBdfunay5IYYl x/65ILs5cvxTqbxYm2z7CmxYglV0G9K+9mP8DVhikpCZ8aXgAZF5AT72jttcGfLjFSk6 jGEaEkjFiJuvy2zalqkHr7KikUEuQ3reiyMJJn29Pj24iDjOtEc5iLtDyczJuq9xAf3g w8zAmwSTmaxGVP0CMy1ZRoC851PzIgAqIgkBYosbnzboEDTqIWoNOZlJ0cBLPG724v91 nQ== Received: from userp3030.oracle.com (userp3030.oracle.com [156.151.31.80]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2u0e1tcy3u-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 29 Jul 2019 04:35:38 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x6T4XMiW108198; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 04:35:37 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2u0bqt91x2-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 29 Jul 2019 04:35:37 +0000 Received: from abhmp0018.oracle.com (abhmp0018.oracle.com [141.146.116.24]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id x6T4ZXS6003190; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 04:35:34 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <717c1376-ac78-4ff8-84a2-5c9a64ba16f3@default> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 21:35:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" , Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: RE: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: <87v9vljxrs.fsf@tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <87v9vljxrs.fsf@tcd.ie> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4873.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9332 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1906280000 definitions=main-1907290055 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9332 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1906280000 definitions=main-1907290055 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: ndame , 36826@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > I think this sounds useful. I'm often rooting around not quite sure > > what variable I'm looking for in the help buffers, and trying > > different values, and having a command to make this faster would be nic= e. > > There's `customize-variable', but I... just don't like it. (And besid= es, > > not all variables are customisable...) >=20 > There's also M-x set-variable, which inserts the current value of the > variable when you type M-n. Perhaps all that's needed is for > set-variable to also detect the variable described in the current > *Help* > buffer, and offer it as one of the default variables to set, following > the value of variable-at-point (which is the current default). I mentioned `set-variable'. But it is only for user options. (And there is already a link to Customize for the variable being described.) And there's `M-: (setq...)`. But for that what's missing is the ability to insert buffer text (e.g. a variable name at point) into the minibuffer. (See the discussion in bug #36525 about that.) And see discussions in emacs-devel: 2017, "custom-set-variables considered harmful", 2011, "set-variable and defcustom", 2010, "`set-variable' should use :set", 2007, "customize-set-(value|variable)", 2007, "apropos commands for commands, user options, all functions, all vari= ables". From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 29 00:46:23 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jul 2019 04:46:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47539 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrxYF-00085S-DR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:46:23 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:40450) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrxYD-00085C-2Q for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:46:21 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x6T4cQbX149788; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 04:46:14 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=eayGCwFLvTJmOcHqL62VQ9zmHA/IBKstLySunAi0pNc=; b=Bwti8gmXLwtkgPB2jOlbfO9Sd19Lo67z7bmMXE0lANHgunt0BZ++pwMXtyRn31uDGYWK jtN/tqjbSqAHcrYDWS1ybctXjnBj3MH3K9erGjjipnUe4+Ycts6Y3BEYx/UFblfPdHe8 Jlnrl4Lc231ABxSqAHDQF4iTi0rrw+tYNQzNxcFb+rxRwsfSChEvo6daQIFpsD+nOQQJ qwZVb145z/I5KgZCqcOV1KvKm1C7uXwqOAUERiWYXz4XOJ4FcBCEt9MOxsn3nNK/cutR BRMObIl4vw+vjENIE47ekPt4y7poRP1n6pleTwkIRQIPOTRrP1HxqZKngdEbOEd/jKwo 9g== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2u0f8qmt77-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 29 Jul 2019 04:46:14 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x6T4ceEv039551; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 04:46:13 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2u0xv7acr3-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 29 Jul 2019 04:46:13 +0000 Received: from abhmp0018.oracle.com (abhmp0018.oracle.com [141.146.116.24]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id x6T4kAei031047; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 04:46:11 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <0bdfe581-6ea9-4802-9864-4cfe0bd5591a@default> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 21:46:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Michael Heerdegen , Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: RE: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: <87a7cx4g7f.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <87a7cx4g7f.fsf@web.de> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4873.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9332 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1906280000 definitions=main-1907290056 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9332 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1906280000 definitions=main-1907290056 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: ndame , 36826@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > I think this sounds useful. I'm often rooting around not quite sure > > what variable I'm looking for in the help buffers, and trying > > different values, and having a command to make this faster would be > > nice. There's `customize-variable', but I... just don't like it. > > (And besides, not all variables are customisable...) > > There are also some downsides: >=20 > - Changing variables might break Emacs if you are not knowing what you > are doing. Customize at least has some safety checks. Users might not > expect that clicking on the button and changing values might have > dangerous consequences. Likewise, Emacs might change or modify the > value and users wonder why their setting had been "rejected". With > other words: it is potentially dangerous and might confuse users. >=20 > - It is no fun for variables with complicated values, like large lists > of lists. Just a minibuffer prompt would not be nice. Here you > probably still would use scratch or so. And even in the situation you > described, I would prefer having an expression in scratch, edit and > eval it, compared to clicking a button in the help buffer and edit > in the mb or a popup buffer. >=20 > - There are nitpicks which may complicate doing what at first sounds > simple, e.g. what if the value includes things w[h]ere printing and > reading comes into play? E.g. buffers: they have a print syntax, > but it's not a read syntax. Objects may be replaced by equal objects > (e.g. lists will be recreated) which might confuse Emacs. There is > buffer local vs. global bindings of variables (and hooks), etc. >=20 > But my main point is the question if we should really invite the > typical user, which is not an Emacs developer (ok, here I'm not > really sure if I'm right) to change variables on the fly, or if > it's not better if these users are directed to customize, and the > others use just M-: or ielm or what they use now. All good points, I think. And I'm not convinced of the problem the proposed solution tries to solve. But maybe I don't have a good idea of what the problem is. FWIW, I don't think I ever find myself "rooting around not quite sure what variable I'm looking for in the help buffers, and trying different values". But maybe I don't really know what Lars meant by that. Is that about wanting better apropos features, to find the right variable? How about an example of such rooting around? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 29 00:57:40 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jul 2019 04:57:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47544 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrxjA-0008Kk-Iz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:57:40 -0400 Received: from fmfe31.onbox.hu ([46.107.16.236]:23646 helo=web-out.onbox.hu) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hrxj7-0008KU-8w for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 00:57:38 -0400 X-fm-smtp-source: yes Received: from localhost (localhost [94.21.144.65]) by web-out.onbox.hu (Postfix) with SMTP id 45xnVf0QyxzZLG; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 06:57:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 04:38:25 +0000 (GMT) From: ndame To: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Michael Heerdegen Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87a7cx4g7f.fsf@web.de> References: <87a7cx4g7f.fsf@web.de> Subject: Re: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_10080_96023940.1564375105246" X-AccountId: 57978162 X-Originating-Ip: 94.21.144.65 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: -100 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrledtgdekkecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdcuhfftgffgofetkffnnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvkfgjfhfugggtihesrgdtregstddtudenucfhrhhomhepnhgurghmvgcuoegvmhgrtghsuhhsvghrsehfrhgvvghmrghilhdrhhhuqeenucfkphepleegrddvuddrudeggedrieehnecurfgrrhgrmhephhgvlhhopedpihhnvghtpeelgedrvddurddugeegrdeihedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegvmhgrtghsuhhsvghrsehfrhgvvghmrghilhdrhhhupdhrtghpthhtoheplhgrrhhsihesghhnuhhsrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=simple/relaxed; t=1564376250; s=20181004; d=freemail.hu; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type; l=4935; bh=iO7dPrcL58e6HBKsXQ/BjfVLwFxY6S+nf1cZjFiTXwo=; b=OeTEWadEN4+0FDTX1QrClDwjM22PR+d0ist3vbL7XlfPeDSvJHDyszTNmnrHlnV5 4SNE5kTyOdU8H+cxJNMX+TYJWObnu7zcKP+JZ7cj8R4mQbR9r1pdz9njNvG4eU4eoVU LDoZwvRBVIYAY2XJklSbIv6fe8bO8n2UzjI9PLQP9nlT+caRH3dD4Xy6F4pIPkl+W+a gI4+zJiS9FOGOW4dU4AVfrKNbQ4GAgIrOo1WM03F0gDHan7PsRqlX6WX8pVS1tSJhnv oAUUaHro0ZiWBdT4sb7vzGbNB4myu8cETiSEG1TWMHjjm/0EXcjbb043pNkpl3y3JtF 6C5NGDvGvA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: "36826@debbugs.gnu.org" <36826@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) ------=_Part_10080_96023940.1564375105246 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > - It is no fun for variables with complicated values, like large lists of lists. Just a minibuffer prompt would not be nice. That's why I mentioned popup buffers for complicated values. It could be especially useful for variables with complicated values like nested=C2= =A0 lists. You just press e, a buffer pops up with the value, so you don't have to manually copy it to scratch, etc. you can tweak it in place quickly and set it with C-c C-c > Here you probably still would use scratch or so. And even in the situatio= n you > described, I would prefer having an expression in scratch, edit and eval > it, compared to clicking a button in the help buffer and edit in the mb >or a popup buffer. A related idea is that we could have the key c bound to copy as elisp. So y= ou=C2=A0 want to tweak a variable. You press c and the lisp form of setting the=C2= =A0 variable (setq varname ....current value...) is copied to the kill ring whi= ch you can tweak in=C2=A0 scratch. This could trivially do the tedious work of copying the variable's name and= =C2=A0 value manually. > - There are nitpicks which may complicate doing what at first sounds > simple, e.g. what if the value includes things were printing and reading > comes into play?=C2=A0 E.g. buffers: they have a print syntax, but it's n= ot a > read syntax. We are talking about variables which the user sets from lisp. Variables containing buffer objects are not such. For these the feature could=C2=A0 throw an error saying the variable cannot be changed manually. > But my main point is the question if we should really invite the typical user, which is not an Emacs developer (ok, here I'm not really sure if I'm right) to change variables on the fly, I don't know what you mean by emacs developer (core developer?), but the typical emacs user tends to learn lisp, so he can extend and mold the editor to his needs. Such a user inspects variables, changes them, copies code to the init file etc. This feature targets those users who=C2= =A0 are beyond customize, able to use lisp and tweak variables and other things often in emacs. =C2=A0 ------=_Part_10080_96023940.1564375105246 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > - It is no fun for variables with complicated values, like large lists
of lists. Just a minibuffer prompt would not be nice.

That's why I mentioned popup buffers for complicated values. It could
be especially useful for variables with complicated values like nested 
lists. You just press e, a buffer pops up with the value, so you don't have
to manually copy it to scratch, etc. you can tweak it in place quickly and
set it with C-c C-c

> Here you probably still would use scratch or so. And even in the situation you
> described, I would prefer having an expression in scratch, edit and eval
> it, compared to clicking a button in the help buffer and edit in the mb
>or a popup buffer.

A related idea is that we could have the key c bound to copy as elisp. So you 
want to tweak a variable. You press c and the lisp form of setting the 
variable (setq varname ....current value...) is copied to the kill ring which you can tweak in 
scratch.

This could trivially do the tedious work of copying the variable's name and 
value manually.



> - There are nitpicks which may complicate doing what at first sounds
> simple, e.g. what if the value includes things were printing and reading
> comes into play?  E.g. buffers: they have a print syntax, but it's not a
> read syntax.

We are talking about variables which the user sets from lisp. Variables
containing buffer objects are not such. For these the feature could 
throw an error saying the variable cannot be changed manually.

> But my main point is the question if we should really invite the typical
user, which is not an Emacs developer (ok, here I'm not really sure if
I'm right) to change variables on the fly,

I don't know what you mean by emacs developer (core developer?), but
the typical emacs user tends to learn lisp, so he can extend and mold
the editor to his needs. Such a user inspects variables, changes them,
copies code to the init file etc. This feature targets those users who 
are beyond customize, able to use lisp and tweak variables and other
things often in emacs.
  ------=_Part_10080_96023940.1564375105246-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 29 09:55:45 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jul 2019 13:55:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48846 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hs67t-00078v-Gk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 09:55:45 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:44120) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hs67r-00078n-HV for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 09:55:44 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=stories) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hs67n-0002ZQ-AL; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 15:55:41 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" Subject: Re: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: <87v9vljxrs.fsf@tcd.ie> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAAGFBMVEXoDwD+XQD+VQD+QwD+ lwT+TAD+OAD+awKIWcxFAAACcklEQVQ4jW1TQW4bMQzkKXeqNXQWDcHnLiG9wEDOlsD4GlSwet5i AX2/o7XbpEkEY9fgkBpyOEvb+b/zvI41uNh/0of44BCLHHt7B2zjeQx2tbaU+43eJY8VcbHc23Fe 9SBB2DmOtWrvTXHVeIRxS5RoyAeQUTG2f4CJmOZZYOkHjeftDNYVrFrtZRZ01XKlMTaEVw4c0Yvu QH65ehr7+c3sijZT1Z61uNNGvM58Fo+rdKmaVRP7dSPh4RgIc+yKCsC34DdU8GBxIQRXkdy09ZzC GGcS71EiwQmGSwr2qtcdCH4VJxc8akqIt6wntAoAt0OiVSr61zrn8+iTXCxewCASNZnOCRNCg4LI 2LsKUrVY1taSMHsqIbAbcmD5ltErxNW2SPQELfyKLbiAdkuFurlLcifi4udwBSutfdllT1IPngy9 CrtDMFMzqxnIYrKRLSVWzIcmLLkdKRbDRjHPHla/8upO7DHRUiATgHq9K49dDT+fkJUhYtICpSAJ SynCK56gRUUyWCDEiytiJgU9WBHnz2QJAdMSIIlOjcvBPBxCqQi81FKxpHZBsnOBJ9Bsegb6Wa0L 5ImGeWE2UiuxwRgZu0iogAar3wFNsefW5071EgTU2BMAaH2cnmy/5HCcvsZvmhMAcqfJNNUENcF+ 2SsMyFwnbrtVLzDMzn2mCAkN2dOEcprxMXagwZAYEF7r2YQDPpI7kG+p1NzAg69lqiXhDvQb5kNT oO9wCbqVOwfMlLU/Dng0Fd4H7G/n8b+lOeFfgOiJiPrrjmAtG71F6fF6hRXjdyTRx/PUlL/T5zg9 dazqc3hSlZP/GrDrIP0SWbY/XrkPcDa+1HsAAAAASUVORK5CYII= Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 15:55:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87v9vljxrs.fsf@tcd.ie> (Basil L. Contovounesios's message of "Mon, 29 Jul 2019 05:00:07 +0100") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: "Basil L. Contovounesios" writes: > There's also M-x set-variable, which inserts the current value of the > variable when you type M-n. Oh, nice. I didn't know that. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: ndame , 36826@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) "Basil L. Contovounesios" writes: > There's also M-x set-variable, which inserts the current value of the > variable when you type M-n. Oh, nice. I didn't know that. > Perhaps all that's needed is for set-variable to also detect the > variable described in the current *Help* buffer, and offer it as one > of the default variables to set, following the value of > variable-at-point (which is the current default). Yes, or bind `e' to a command that would call `set-variable' with the variable under point? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 29 10:19:03 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jul 2019 14:19:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48868 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hs6UR-0001O3-FW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:19:03 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:58780) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hs6UQ-0001NZ-2h for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:19:02 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x6TEDbCL126042; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 14:18:56 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=Gf6CYCbwpEvQwHo3+lmo/jQ/FjwpY9WdAJ3WgmqCVpU=; b=Ib7I8MyioGDkjTDNaun9gdXZsmEFWIs++iR0PA0XO+zSbZHNzRkFgRf6RDcrSfVs4GWZ dxEeRUX/TuY6ioy8vKH9LUGScs0LYcQK0WIEXfLS8p7dVQKCnQNGmwOFFsstNmWxL+hl VPYO/Iih4/PsOs9rnf9bAkgpoIKzZt1ISSUbhCalRUyt/V7J+x99oU5gOSlgWoIj/uhK HBM4IsbkQh9+U7ne/7gePAEPDqVJJGayRHtLBqQ8DGnJOCgH/+PVJP0AX/drQf7b2K8K zwMLqwBmOpJHHbSikQUnivRvd119Np+hPMgvCyc9YnTZA5mbU2cNJ6FXw41YPrkxPnsz gA== Received: from userp3020.oracle.com (userp3020.oracle.com [156.151.31.79]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2u0ejp7pmm-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 29 Jul 2019 14:18:55 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x6TEHSp3083583; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 14:18:55 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2u0dxq0etr-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 29 Jul 2019 14:18:54 +0000 Received: from abhmp0012.oracle.com (abhmp0012.oracle.com [141.146.116.18]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id x6TEIoh6011332; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 14:18:52 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <6614a4e7-fa2e-4f39-8890-d6c13e88dd7a@default> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 07:18:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Lars Ingebrigtsen , "Basil L. Contovounesios" Subject: RE: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: <87v9vljxrs.fsf@tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4873.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9333 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=921 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1906280000 definitions=main-1907290164 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9333 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=974 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1906280000 definitions=main-1907290163 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: ndame , 36826@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) See the older discussions I pointed to previously for why command `customize-set-variable' is generally preferable to command `set-variable'. (Or compare their doc and behavior.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 29 10:22:36 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jul 2019 14:22:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48876 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hs6Xs-0001Tc-AV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:22:36 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44519) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hs6Xq-0001TO-22 for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:22:34 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:44665) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hs6Xj-0002ls-Vr; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:22:28 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4080 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hs6Xj-0005Vl-71; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:22:27 -0400 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 17:22:14 +0300 Message-Id: <83v9vkkjjd.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: ndame In-reply-to: (message from ndame on Mon, 29 Jul 2019 04:38:25 +0000 (GMT)) Subject: Re: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: <87a7cx4g7f.fsf@web.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, larsi@gnus.org, 36826@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 04:38:25 +0000 (GMT) > From: ndame > Cc: "36826@debbugs.gnu.org" <36826@debbugs.gnu.org> > > > - It is no fun for variables with complicated values, like large lists > of lists. Just a minibuffer prompt would not be nice. > > That's why I mentioned popup buffers for complicated values. It could > be especially useful for variables with complicated values like nested > lists. You just press e, a buffer pops up with the value, so you don't have > to manually copy it to scratch, etc. you can tweak it in place quickly and > set it with C-c C-c Would invoking Customize with 'e' fix most of the problems? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 29 14:16:24 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Jul 2019 18:16:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49097 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsAC7-0002bs-TK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 14:16:24 -0400 Received: from bird.elm.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.212.17]:35051) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsAC1-0002bb-5T for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 14:16:17 -0400 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jurta@jurta.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DCC750276C; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 18:16:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-29-186.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.29.186]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7D0B7502B04; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 18:16:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jurta@jurta.org Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.17.5); Mon, 29 Jul 2019 18:16:16 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|jurta@jurta.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Hysterical-Plucky: 4d3833902e6c9c36_1564424175983_1927471557 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1564424175982:3342548233 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1564424175982 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E398883083; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 11:16:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=linkov.net; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :content-type; s=linkov.net; bh=b8YLEQosrTtabUiNtLjgCkz6arM=; b= FKa5o6k3kMV7D4n3/GZyRyaCWxFMvdHlpA1qplxoFeEfEvI7ORH3IrxC8+EfFeip QjbAM8oWIUbYxsG/59j/q92OLtfh6fqHeFIW/9Y8hhZZhldHXLhVJ3oVnN259zLg Z1Jf2ifSKTw2S4ICZ1XDe+n/th+Aanhsr6SgELiNAsY= Received: from mail.jurta.org (m91-129-103-76.cust.tele2.ee [91.129.103.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jurta@jurta.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 386F28307F; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 11:16:05 -0700 (PDT) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a43 From: Juri Linkov To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer Organization: LINKOV.NET References: <87v9vljxrs.fsf@tcd.ie> <717c1376-ac78-4ff8-84a2-5c9a64ba16f3@default> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 21:15:18 +0300 In-Reply-To: <717c1376-ac78-4ff8-84a2-5c9a64ba16f3@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 28 Jul 2019 21:35:32 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87a7cxf8sh.fsf@mail.linkov.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrledugdduvdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpffftgfetoffjqffuvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephffvufhofhffjgfkfgggtgesthdtredttdertdenucfhrhhomheplfhurhhiucfnihhnkhhovhcuoehjuhhriheslhhinhhkohhvrdhnvghtqeenucfkphepledurdduvdelrddutdefrdejieenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghlohepmhgrihhlrdhjuhhrthgrrdhorhhgpdhinhgvthepledurdduvdelrddutdefrdejiedprhgvthhurhhnqdhprghthheplfhurhhiucfnihhnkhhovhcuoehjuhhriheslhhinhhkohhvrdhnvghtqedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehjuhhriheslhhinhhkohhvrdhnvghtpdhnrhgtphhtthhopegurhgvfidrrggurghmshesohhrrggtlhgvrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgepud X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: "Basil L. Contovounesios" , Lars Ingebrigtsen , ndame , 36826@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > I mentioned `set-variable'. But it is only for user options. I use such advice to workaround this restriction: ;; Allow set-variable to set all variables, not only customizable ones: (advice-add 'set-variable :around (lambda (orig-fun &rest args) (interactive (lambda (spec) (cl-letf (((symbol-function 'custom-variable-p) (lambda (v) (and (symbolp v) (boundp v))))) (advice-eval-interactive-spec spec)))) (cl-flet ((custom-variable-p (v) t)) (apply orig-fun args))) '((name . override-custom-variable))) But I agree with Michael this should be allowed only to developers. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 29 20:59:57 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jul 2019 00:59:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49366 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsGUe-0001nV-TR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 20:59:57 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:52521) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsGUd-0001n5-CN for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 20:59:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1564448382; bh=bpWVJUVFCc3nCikAXunfge9aQUyQRkMlhUEMtC4F4RQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=DVpgbkdDZs9zgUzWQgWDT9OJg311qqRsWp/pSE8ufw2AKPh7/AaqzX3v7+9qljb8y onFTBYkNW+Tg9abbAKWRYpCn60xsOU1K3PryMorbEwmezzs/IvcFodzodDdoi8T2NH ghHm3SmIf7jUtHIeXPhYKMc7xjFKrGw4fBjxp9LQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.208.178.242]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb103 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M1X9B-1igWn90QQL-00tSn6; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 02:59:42 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: ndame Subject: Re: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: <87a7cx4g7f.fsf@web.de> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 02:59:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: (ndame's message of "Mon, 29 Jul 2019 04:38:25 +0000 (GMT)") Message-ID: <87o91ccp6s.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:L9MMlo6+IDWrXnzjsnbmL1fu1syzc3mEYLv8F8wMYO5ySMUeczp OdA/fw04Lhj5nlqshW1JP5H1txsqQU4782USxHp8VjzS2alrBsBMDk0UJjqb0zvKX0d4yDM DMJ7PVP1e6n60vweIbvc5g3+LnlV7KJiQQ5LZpNiq3pJiixDIsFpNiiZ5/fkyu4Z4aZCRWT 9ynT9JEdRwQHdQlF7GT4w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:PSN0rn3UM1I=:jZzL5prMEI+IryTdTrPgO1 LC90UeY4Tx0PPS1cZEgCJODAHvclmAIuIbOD30+GSe11/NrmPP21Aff/8Axac7H+oqmlM4BNK hI+DOereWwtjKh/s0U2a+kgPTIIRi82rolHCI/oN4rqX9gg1BL491xyMGceO+R7HK5p4CpAyf +bQxWf6ts5wXx44O0V5s4bqVemZMnpfOjeXQoPVm85Rq+MITcXRLmII3Jd2lpjrwAPVtotqDR Tvs4t9T9aAj8acgh4VZCtKU+wJ8xuLOvzX+ZTDE0CMjX0fc7Sxzok9Uwi7tSzplT1iMXqAvSl EOS2Rj61s+g9bRqSUQNpp7q5dXmDTdN33CxMjQQguALXk5Ou6nCOI+2GjjFllhMqUFi6c+cb6 siLo79n7VCjHW1sVg8UlQMALcfKHmroeZBybs82Lzk45Zyw1i+vCzUlQ7qWZZjFX2c5W31Zfe SBgfQRQzjM7UrTHwW7CGW3vcGjvDKsNyR9Xee1gz/wd/ASsXdkWj6WwdxefHsF2FXj10jx2Kz XV7tv/h5CRaKji/A1cqIkzgO4hfK1hsbsCEm/3FwSOQp9Qo3HRFiEWYdj42ql4y6nPfREjuNf VNzugLHRYezO8II4HD7UXhQqfU4uQuEemtzKTTT3//XvyTNzWp1L47GFtPJ7zwMGB8On8Fqg8 lguE6TPHeALfDHYtm6QYhuVhTj+KhEqSNFcp+1CuhEACCv9W7pG29FBi6E3SopW8Mib5HWpq0 TexbhgE9ngEvXCSb2J9uIS968x2AbwQ0zvkC3N6yRBdp4zmmbLWUrdGvJg1jOOl2gk3T+Q1Fp bleE+KiGidOHtRimKKJk3qoWV/rLbQ7F2oL2AFWVXTg6XoIP6oEleVZsPankvDLJ8na2+sxAm zX2CLAC7XIsYTKFtm62h30kkTVfU01oi9qdB4SR/FzC5BPej54D2KDcbIorwJ5xnoJ4ZO8pnt 45TjUqqZSefAp6dKz+xI8RCuSrdHfeWm4SdaWt6D3htm0POEWt56VpXIWs+yEPH42Xl9sVZKA OK92DVAfm6/AaxP2hDx9Z4zALQM5qsLMTZFKQEWYCzfgW6IsPHMiVY8cNrqiBXrcbQkYphQE3 fl0eEG4jSY2bWgSU5EvHeDUz/5ZDIB88zPU Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , "36826@debbugs.gnu.org" <36826@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) ndame writes: > A related idea is that we could have the key c bound to copy as > elisp. So you want to tweak a variable. You press c and the lisp form > of setting the variable (setq varname ....current value...) is copied > to the kill ring which you can tweak in scratch. It's convenient, but also a small gain: copy the variable to scratch, hit C-u C-x C-e, and you already have most of this. Takes two seconds or so to type all that to have the complete setq form. > We are talking about variables which the user sets from lisp. Variables > containing buffer objects are not such. For these the feature could > throw an error saying the variable cannot be changed manually. Could be done. Note that already variables whose values contain functions could throw this error. > > But my main point is the question if we should really invite the typic= al > > user, which is not an Emacs developer (ok, here I'm not really sure if > > I'm right) to change variables on the fly, > I don't know what you mean by emacs developer (core developer?), but > the typical emacs user tends to learn lisp, so he can extend and mold > the editor to his needs. Such a user inspects variables, changes them, > copies code to the init file etc. This feature targets those users who > are beyond customize, able to use lisp and tweak variables and other > things often in emacs. Doing so is quite often a mistake. Some variables should not be set outside of customize. Other variables, especially list valued variables we spoke about, often need to be value modified instead of set. And for variables with atom values, the gain is small. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jul 29 22:43:58 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jul 2019 02:43:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49385 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsI7K-0004Wc-2g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 22:43:58 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:41276) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsI7H-0004WM-Es for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 22:43:56 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x6U2hb85085792; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 02:43:49 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=iACncnnIRYZnaMpZebQfPYuQPg0cFftL5cvZX47Ybyo=; b=pYo8kTMfmXXydLX97dWQCBCHETcg37sVi8kLOreavK4xnk4PfSgmh5KBGczAlnmzEczz va3MtuxXp7bjGMSFnfw/T+MgywuXDtaaxFyfvfTZlF2fg5HrY4ip1IYWTH1sRkgDlGHX NQRF6w+J5T0pBZfQ3JmQ/IPwsEKgI1+HvoxwBnECP/3r840ZL7BrjGfeIAB9UxoMEgkX XwyutxSlWLr5E0wedwdZoC7pOW7Ut8WKmnnMIj4eUDzeNW/X4U1B6PLCg3YJHqpWJgH1 fVFrqHZc6yBSZHAS3OOQig8Y3/ha5+S6TQKFTTloHx+pFZQi0/PuAO9eMdQAWERVprjs gw== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2u0f8qu72n-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 30 Jul 2019 02:43:48 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x6U2grtC153368; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 02:43:48 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2u0xv7v9q4-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 30 Jul 2019 02:43:48 +0000 Received: from abhmp0015.oracle.com (abhmp0015.oracle.com [141.146.116.21]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id x6U2hk01032118; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 02:43:46 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 19:43:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Michael Heerdegen , ndame Subject: RE: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: <87a7cx4g7f.fsf@web.de> <87o91ccp6s.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <87o91ccp6s.fsf@web.de> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4873.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9333 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=957 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1906280000 definitions=main-1907300026 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9333 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1906280000 definitions=main-1907300026 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , 36826@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) In addition to what Michael said, I'll add this, for those who think Customize is not for Lispers or is otherwise beneath them. If you customize a list-valued option, such as `default-frame-alist', and you use `M-x customize-option' on it, menu `State' lets you choose `Show Saved Lisp expression', which does what it says: replaces the `INS' and `DEL' entries of `Parameter' and `Value' with, well the alist as a Lisp sexp. Edit that there, or edit it elsewhere. IOW, `customize-option' gives you more along the lines of what was requested than does `customize-set-variable'. But yes, `customize-set-variable' should at least give you the current value using `M-n'. Given that value, even a complex one, you could edit it in the minibuffer. (`set-variable' does make the current value available as the default (`M-n') for editing. In other respects `customize-set-variable' is preferable to `set-variable'.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 30 00:07:30 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jul 2019 04:07:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49395 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsJQA-0006hm-Js for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 00:07:30 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:51051) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsJQ7-0006hQ-Ks for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 00:07:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1564459329; bh=b27Q3/gu09+mk7MlN/dXcn1ORkw9EMwV4Slu6b56W5Q=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=ZXchRyYC+gWYDy/uAs+v3IvqoWyVpiPfYEmNFXgM0E8ZWXP9NjCqVkiesh03ZuyZq Qcsu9wQ0Wep0iftvMzqg9aeM8cawc+8iH+ieDV4J/FOlwMjd+wmtZhchCACUJdlKEj IWoQgLQd0h6YCxvpPiPNY7Ce40YwceoNXAy8UG/k= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.208.178.242]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb103 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MfYj1-1i2RXW0Rzf-00P3om; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 06:02:09 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: <87a7cx4g7f.fsf@web.de> <87o91ccp6s.fsf@web.de> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 06:02:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 29 Jul 2019 19:43:45 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <8736iocgqp.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:QdUsjDXZTu6P4RZr9dC/p9dX+dmjNpUm1X7vMVwGuiTWzOYayig H1KyjwKf7Q5Vp4AQua86Da7RGzHM0HrhXDkPUGaobd0qZhAvBF69GGzeYWU/Dn62/ffGeAm cA6l7IfyDPxdekmE+BO9q+BnXw0nXf/KqkN6k/eIbNg+kXOU/DwzXNufWLnTGNc2nk63+V2 mA4n6GGFNYFxfLr85iBng== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:W3l/pY3rxwY=:KwK3UWv6UMQmBOylQDhdIs +FJ+MORayG+BsNJbtwHWoTtKnje3+ndfTVogzvdm16vu6HVUUBowsnKK9zuEIuTM5/6mYdmOg /UxkPRrWEuXrQzNeCVSj0xcdidO/BNsfPbhm+r4QZ//hTIdkHDJx7uBf/ObsCWVWKqvO60RMV 49d220rg8lMAKYrsE7GAXeg08HUbemTB2ZEjGC+Jj7DicbrkZ/vx7NHxgrQfo2dX3Hvd2o3uJ s5XsgTUt7AXSBtbQ+wlsRU4qLDpPS7DaA6/zhF/sVQk9/ow4ITjsIZw+5jrtMtog5Gwsf4KxJ Du4b8LFo/ktt6CMk+V/BeO4UpNGGuWyaTJ1i7MklFcYDDMNmsHlR0dXUuCSmO4ljTGfujF6DA TOHSV+Z+82BquKNyJg+IB4g20r8QkzoNawTsB0En3Dw+u7aoLTZ2YJvq9p5mIskwQUvyqIzR1 sRpsPNAw7+wXB5Kgzfujw1T5rYwdAgDMIE4ko+b6rvp5LN0d88vqUh7RbXVOvHeLm/nlSs3dw r8vqWqBXpdJRte/6YNh8YH31dcWwlnNKiDmJ3vopE45KbWLv3Q6MXhiEdbD/PpGK9uPKc+yAW 8Y9BmYIfcYHlcfpFJicoidESJj1tgYfg+sKKclz+HtCFvdfPW+AmNVDaHDopVs/qDviaoUe3v 4MnkYfsCikXy/N9C7Wo6dXWMGHvzw4QcdfYxvNQWIUoBcDXCE3MW5GzgiXJD6oj5jKJhof99k KqUvvO7CeXXHXzg74xkiYdzcjVzl4n7thazartD4xQDDT72CdSWgBOmZQKH1FEIDXq7NTrmmS BLTDwBD2Pfdmil9qM6FyE7BU1U6XB46sOO3WdjSA5Fb/HGWDO96oN5d/QmvpvreE6UW68+SzP Ap8GDf/TlP5QF9KJ/iYnMz9dhXcQWGqG2oSYtoqx6kPsGriR/+iPoXJxA431JHLjkUQM/OsOG eiejl5m09UO7AywWK//zEib92+jwvDLsAbYGKeYW1s+VAPzcphpR5wdSMAEr4rtU3gz5M/HDZ aV59DlFeKFksdRj4MUJkMKXTz/asXsNMMLIbB3fu/mKbnDnxt2QcfphiLQbaPytaeSJwbKPjy YCJvT6BdKGcpDLgkhMU6d6l4AkgmpQBokdv X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , ndame , 36826@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > > (`set-variable' does make the current value available > as the default (`M-n') for editing. In other respects > `customize-set-variable' is preferable to `set-variable'.) AFAICT: doesn't `customize-set-variable' prefill the minibuffer with the current value? Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 30 14:53:42 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jul 2019 18:53:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51176 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsXFm-0007xA-Ko for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 14:53:42 -0400 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:59718) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsXFl-0007wr-80 for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 14:53:41 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x6UINvQO123509; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 18:53:34 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=BVsd+PzXx9/ARZvQwSQ9xmqXZ4EU7t39zK8SyR5I61I=; b=XE7gsunNKlgYTzeAo8xMJh2w8AUSzsapfTwbVl0lKEl0FoMefC61lP2fSodF6LkAfYyv KudyQyIFm4S+g0NNj05sseCwLeUzF6qJnU/IAHPvg8U4gOeh9ZPmqjEDf8dg7OzquT/u 4P/FCxD2hF2HGuRYX26UfiLQCTn8i/Ye9SYvLjOjDLezwqWv2t2FNvpykjaNww8oH10w GqpAiRKeaszFkoqAH7lc2atmOnLKo8axEpaaIekSFqyESw8jx5ZL81VEJWe7mpFnafTC 7t69UO+A/jZijDURUVKoM2hqGVXA2+4vCp+zhVQBZk6zLv5TyG2aOBvPbHdKtSRN/To9 ow== Received: from userp3030.oracle.com (userp3030.oracle.com [156.151.31.80]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2u0e1trk5c-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 30 Jul 2019 18:53:34 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x6UIr7KG033981; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 18:53:34 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2u0bqubd7d-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 30 Jul 2019 18:53:34 +0000 Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id x6UIrUHW019493; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 18:53:30 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1aefceef-b0ae-4788-9734-80eb3fbbf7b3@default> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 11:53:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Michael Heerdegen Subject: RE: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: <87a7cx4g7f.fsf@web.de> <87o91ccp6s.fsf@web.de> <8736iocgqp.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <8736iocgqp.fsf@web.de> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4873.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9334 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=687 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1906280000 definitions=main-1907300192 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9334 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=744 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1906280000 definitions=main-1907300191 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , ndame , 36826@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > (`set-variable' does make the current value available > > as the default (`M-n') for editing. In other respects > > `customize-set-variable' is preferable to `set-variable'.) >=20 > AFAICT: doesn't `customize-set-variable' prefill the minibuffer with > the current value? Seems to depend. For `fill-column', yes. For `default-frame-alist' no. You get a hint at the beginning of the prompt: "[repeat]", but you have no idea what to repeat, no completion, etc. You don't get the current value, as a complex list etc., AFAICT. (I haven't checked the code, to see what it really does.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jul 30 17:32:43 2019 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Jul 2019 21:32:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51310 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsZjf-0004NA-IB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 17:32:43 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:36729) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsZjd-0004Mv-T2 for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 17:32:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1564522338; bh=dbdYo4dntNUi9YlesDKHIzJGCRf204mKtxW5LEbhdDE=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=g4RZ6M87A1zeW7PD4/lxy+MiF/N9qaODDvDnRs0ozI0eeg+Bvt4G07zKl8v6si4g5 qRWrn3LLu+xzNiwJkxD70/Lfo/VuMPQsbakG8kHBi3Fudd/Kl5NzmKgCfowpCky0jV LMRspObhJlx6402Gjz8fDhVgR7MD+Lv6P/pd9Qhc= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.208.178.242]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb101 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MbQGO-1hc8m62qMm-00Ijec; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 23:32:18 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: <87a7cx4g7f.fsf@web.de> <87o91ccp6s.fsf@web.de> <8736iocgqp.fsf@web.de> <1aefceef-b0ae-4788-9734-80eb3fbbf7b3@default> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 23:32:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1aefceef-b0ae-4788-9734-80eb3fbbf7b3@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 30 Jul 2019 11:53:29 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <871ry7tdi9.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:2bM3P4XZscP+NyDuIZEtbL/zKJk3Vz5gnKftf1iWdNWskID1mz+ LGZRAYefErOq3JpnF/qUXLuLLdW96AaztjqCxCqgfNOI2/tQITl5MEoeeq6RWBzQgjWiUhU 39U6XpYbvMCK7WQ7FJkB27WVF+wgPNg846oOO7XUK0pClCiq5SHfCbzFbLq+nie0TUkshCU NomQ5JApqi0aTy+2YZ3Dw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:vqQtUIQDoRU=:Gedc8pJU82R/sqOoM22HuK eYfWgLkw/YBxuZfWxeeeiqjmcQXfR2Q618P2dKLF5cEw5NMHczYRTAt4yLCw3SSi92t+qCvBH +yXc8t7SBr3ZxqmM82CW+l1by0DzRPdOF11kvjLicGGfUnhU2djeaOB5SS0ZEjp9s1vzNvSQd 0jk59MirW99W6I2f5Z2VC8KRNe8S2wMDE+WUFZQtJF7ONQqfCDDNoNTI0G3RdrILZ/+Qux7WN VQ33Pa/ilRfS4JYscQVI7T4XpOq0Grv3VMD1BVIsmeEjJzXeBFhGjw0ga7NdO3ouW32z+0RGk x3U2nwdxwA17TcfMo2wKV4xHUcdlw1Uq1WNuBHLyWYz/JUnBQCCKh8bIlirfblL57QLv274rj UMVf2YBDTHhQHePnnseaFjw3HHk75bWCgO0GjWZMY/kIC9pXAS+Nb5zYacLAsDvFhfiKa8Y50 CfV5a3Ib7fLEisS5+Tbqp2OQqweBD92PMTM1OG0nfC8LcMfagJvrkxtzuOMkaPfudEQ7uY8dw HLCXVOnjJFt9+VFu5RxFD7zbKNPzg3teuloj1mUXmLU6GYOLBRzUUizB+xHwn4FPRqnWSQNkV OJolhUV1b89aUEze+LZ7hyzNTIsXTYxmHAqWdJkbCVx83E+S/htzUM5TSYlCf1GhejvcS8jop jcto/L9Dg3HA9w+MO7v8J+cecI3XNabCz7w55z0DwJKmAzS9DK+bAgnDQxBI6Um/pbwuszK48 Y6kwEKifZbWLbqxMbm0k/K/KPwVpGz6/Uv7W2X+alYRHRnnbCpPkqhL+re+qiSrObelKiA/Fu VmgbqaHYJHC94yFIRCfQGHWgoXdI8eC59D/O3/qpdputmUtRBoQVyKHnj6zOaulPtbu85SuSj iZ8rZ52kyxf/85Xpg5+cHKVPogc71ldCN+tDR6z6kZIB76GoCGsxttL865gZyNWjZDSJXSmge 65DrZKgipcIsf0hFair//ui64MGrBkD3IyCHTrzS8+X/K6L0gKd9u2a3ZQ4gONALacP3/7k91 5uUUYx+OIEmhAVDB9maETJ0xWxqNFSXjtbWodmDDtP9YF1zvC/pu4jMC8ZAJQXLj4UO39fjDr y3QVhYwktDpzoRlTDp9PH48kloeEGaJiyz4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , ndame , 36826@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > > > (`set-variable' does make the current value available > > > as the default (`M-n') for editing. In other respects > > > `customize-set-variable' is preferable to `set-variable'.) > > > > AFAICT: doesn't `customize-set-variable' prefill the minibuffer with > > the current value? > > Seems to depend. For `fill-column', yes. For > `default-frame-alist' no. You get a hint at > the beginning of the prompt: "[repeat]", but > you have no idea what to repeat, no completion, > etc. You don't get the current value, as a > complex list etc., AFAICT. Oh, indeed. At the end, in this case the :prompt-value spec of the default widget is used (the repeat widget which is used here inherits it), which is the quite simple `widget-default-prompt-value'. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 17 13:00:50 2022 Received: (at 36826) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2022 17:00:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37039 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ng8GY-0001fF-Nt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:00:50 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:44568) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ng8GW-0001f1-RK for 36826@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:00:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=IwPpJb2VrvgKi7Vbjui6OqhUekyA96hap64V9Popp3A=; b=I0Lt1ijcM8VrY5eapF0HXlrnMc /1iHEd+ZQb/ri0j77fTKG3SoTyZZk2qVJ5sHx+COBv2YSHuaW7iqvxFjK9JzPfNsGWni0BsUWtrk4 m6b3w3t0B75esS6CarV/8V3KEU5lEwnLRNRcb08cs6Zw5nEiwbDP31VpsT0p6dEQr9aA=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ng8GL-0007vQ-FJ; Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:00:42 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: ndame Subject: Re: bug#36826: 26.1; request: add variable value editing feature to the *Help* buffer References: Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:00:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 28 Jul 2019 20:01:12 +0200") Message-ID: <87czhfabm3.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > I think this sounds useful. I'm often rooting around not quite sure > what variable I'm looking for in the help buffers, and trying different > values, and having a command to make this faster would [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36826 Cc: 36826@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > I think this sounds useful. I'm often rooting around not quite sure > what variable I'm looking for in the help buffers, and trying different > values, and having a command to make this faster would be nice. I've now added this to Emacs 29 -- doubly disabled by default, to discourage casual users from using it. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 17 13:00:56 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2022 17:00:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37042 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ng8Gd-0001fW-Th for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:00:56 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:44582) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ng8Gc-0001f7-1B for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Apr 2022 13:00:54 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=LqqPeOFc0pY8Oxujd0L5GfuLa6qz3YuCKYfY18njBtw=; b=ImVzqNMOF7RqCLrbiUNU0Vi85s f5E9MrBdYu3DoGXyTWmUG6I9a5oepTvkH65B+tkZaZnehA9Tkr1hGLgiw3AfyGmKwWHUZoaDjO0E+ +22Rehp5edumHXdqkI+cVybVOD4i6oT7bzT4ta/EfrMxrJsps54hotRF6DK8k0B3FJeo=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ng8GT-0007vY-Bu for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:00:47 +0200 Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 19:00:44 +0200 Message-Id: <87bkwzablv.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #36826 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 36826 29.1 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 36826 29.1 quit From unknown Sat Aug 16 13:51:16 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 11:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator