From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 09:38:03 2019 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 13:38:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53625 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ho6bi-0000nh-Eg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:38:03 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:60271) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ho2K9-0004T3-Od for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 05:03:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34106) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ho2K8-0006wG-Aw for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 05:03:37 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ho2K6-0004ki-Ai for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 05:03:36 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:43208) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ho2K4-0004Vh-Pl for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 05:03:34 -0400 Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80E4D1B9321 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 02:03:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: 097142780589F55512C02A625D7AE723081E34FB278DB4507F93EE4754ECE01A Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1B00B223490 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 02:03:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Alessi To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:03:10 +0200 Message-ID: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 198.252.153.129 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:38:00 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) As of 2016, the latest versions of Unicode (as of 2016) have now formally deprecated and removed the vowel+oxia combinations from the Greek extended range, leaving only the vowel+tonos from the basic Greek and Coptic range. As a result of this deprecation, the sixteen characters found in greek.el (Quail package for inputting Greek) that use extended codepoints should be replaced with those that use basic codepoints. All affected characters can be found here: --> https://wiki.digitalclassicist.org/Greek_Unicode_duplicated_vowels#Affected= _characters Although most Unicode Greek fonts display both versions identically, in some cases, not using basic codepoints can break advanced features such as alternate forms in Greek script. To take an example, if some feature is supposed to distinguish between regular and `curly' *beta* (=CE=B2/=CF= =90) so as to print the `curly' shape if the *beta* is found in medial position, the substitution will succeed in =CE=B2=CE=AC=CF=81=CE=B2=CE=B1=CF=81=CE=BF= =CF=82, but fail in =CE=BB=CE=AC=CE=B2=CF=81=CE=BF=CF=82 just because of the extended codepoint of =CE=AC that is used by `greek.el`. Best, Robert --------------------------------------------------------------- In GNU Emacs 25.3.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.12) of 2018-05-26 built on wsc_andre Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11906000 System Description: Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre Configured using: 'configure --prefix=3D/usr --sysconfdir=3D/etc --libexecdir=3D/usr/lib --localstatedir=3D/var --with-x-toolkit=3Dgtk3 --with-xft --with-modules 'CFLAGS=3D-march=3Dx86-64 -mtune=3Dgeneric -O2 -pipe -fstack-protector-str= ong -fno-plt' CPPFLAGS=3D-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=3D2 LDFLAGS=3D-Wl,-O1,--sort-common,--as-needed,-z,relro,-z,now' Configured features: XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG IMAGEMAGICK SOUND GPM DBUS GCONF GSETTINGS NOTIFY ACL GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE M17N_FLT LIBOTF XFT ZLIB TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 MODULES Important settings: value of $LANG: fr_FR.UTF-8 value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=3Dibus locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix Major mode: Fundamental Minor modes in effect: global-linum-mode: t tooltip-mode: t global-eldoc-mode: t electric-indent-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t tool-bar-mode: t menu-bar-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t blink-cursor-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t buffer-read-only: t line-number-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t Recent messages: Loading linum...done For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a. 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Thu, 18 Jul 2019 07:54:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Pluim To: Robert Alessi Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Gmane-Reply-To-List: yes Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:54:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> (Robert Alessi's message of "Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:03:10 +0200") Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:03:10 +0200, Robert Alessi said: Robert> As of 2016, the latest versions of Unicode (as of 2016) have now Robert> formally deprecated and removed the vowel+oxia combinations from the Robert> Greek extended range, leaving only the vowel+tonos from the basic Greek Robert> and Coptic range. Robert> As a result of this deprecation, the sixteen characters found in Robert> greek.el (Quail package for inputting Greek) that use extended Robert> codepoints should be replaced with those that use basic codepoints. All Robert> affected characters can be found here: --> Robert> https://wiki.digitalclassicist.org/Greek_Unicode_duplicated_vowels#Affected_characters I took a look at greek.el, that shouldn't be difficult. What about GREEK OXIA vs GREEK TONOS as standalone characters? Should we replace the former with the latter? Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 14:02:04 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 18:02:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54639 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoAjD-0003km-56 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:02:03 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:39346) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoAH2-0002zD-D7 for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:32:57 -0400 Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A85701A0E73; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 10:32:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: 06BAA563C6BD3DE5C976FBA98927499F669D72F977DDC68DC36CDB6259CB0148 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6958A220E29; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 10:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:32:52 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Robert Pluim Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:02:02 -0400 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 04:54:45PM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: > >>>>> On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:03:10 +0200, Robert Alessi said: > > Robert> As of 2016, the latest versions of Unicode (as of 2016) have now > Robert> formally deprecated and removed the vowel+oxia combinations from the > Robert> Greek extended range, leaving only the vowel+tonos from the basic Greek > Robert> and Coptic range. > > Robert> As a result of this deprecation, the sixteen characters found in > Robert> greek.el (Quail package for inputting Greek) that use extended > Robert> codepoints should be replaced with those that use basic codepoints. All > Robert> affected characters can be found here: > --> > Robert> https://wiki.digitalclassicist.org/Greek_Unicode_duplicated_vowels#Affected_characters > > I took a look at greek.el, that shouldn't be difficult. What about > GREEK OXIA vs GREEK TONOS as standalone characters? Should we replace > the former with the latter? Very well spotted. Actually, the latter is the right one—that is: Greek Tonos, U+0384—while the former, Greek Oxia (U+1FFD) belongs to the group that was deprecated. So it is the other way round: keep the former, and make the latter go. Thank you, Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 14:06:23 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 18:06:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54647 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoAnP-0003to-LG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:06:23 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f44.google.com ([209.85.128.44]:50561) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoAnN-0003tX-9k for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:06:22 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f44.google.com with SMTP id v15so26501581wml.0 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:06:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iKlhEfFb2+1+UpaH6xGK6t4LO1rW3ChpHeay2HrJWi4=; b=EHFpgtI+H8uTAvNz9EKrn6jFCsfu6vnNuCA1Jyxc8R2X5123JZt2KxoureFUiUwb1f M/CZYdq0A6rChJQRbLmg5eKC9a7qxao8D4D7BpSMVBoaj9S+t73SKLhIXOkbYAzg/1t3 oiLlrgy4MQVATNPS0yKL23inax/q1TKiqo1RpNp/uBS0QVamfZsLBwxKKeGuj1TNcetI Nqxqatm+a646NfkMX9t4tTs/LBz+Pe1g9PPJVXSJo7juYov2dE3bJ8f7XxzDsgK/YTN7 8hVidrE5YWRJpDTxTWupUJZXa1IadggpHjh8Cs5TtMB+ByD98tXS1gIUuc6TwWCfxD7N CAfw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iKlhEfFb2+1+UpaH6xGK6t4LO1rW3ChpHeay2HrJWi4=; b=ufOSXdMLFQ4tLatFO/cjRDRUyOxMyLhjW1XGY7uSjA7sTvX8Eu2OBfMf3m4wE0RyRc XVrwW5SDKBw2mxSclCubM4xmkiEHwvCksM14zLiIMC+BCnwVhRNR/XeZzdzhlpAi5+JE BFS78IijNsL0lQPjZewhKfjvTakikf+d3dN5N1jml0Cc2fXOtABLQQehJYQdeR7H2/LX rOdlD0IAXR3ucygnXJ/mMhADO1VgAXCS9/43N6sekfxQalM64qGnB2idBKv7uwksC/IP qFhP92eOgRI0yoCj+iVv4g7cCuoIyisRkogcTggYiOI0iFYxJOkfq6xvZbDydh9aI1OM G/ag== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVLPWg5Pl45DJkCwxc4RfBDLJcqUbGMB9gSodRruZk/hb37UBeI ewuYeIukvCAfAQsYDMeEg8DAZgwr X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwkyKFgA6vgXezwqF4dYJgoSdVFqYMHOPMTQs6THzruWNT3a1qADXzD8v5etHj1qUd/X61+/A== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:c90f:: with SMTP id f15mr11639349wmb.98.1563473174879; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rpluim-mac ([2a01:e34:ecfc:a860:654d:cd3a:755a:ad29]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p7sm10832960wrs.6.2019.07.18.11.06.13 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:06:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Pluim To: Robert Alessi Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 20:06:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> (Robert Alessi's message of "Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:32:52 +0200") Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:32:52 +0200, Robert Alessi said: >> I took a look at greek.el, that shouldn't be difficult. What about >> GREEK OXIA vs GREEK TONOS as standalone characters? Should we replace >> the former with the latter? Robert> Very well spotted. Actually, the latter is the right one=E2=80= =94that is: ^^^^^^ Robert> Greek Tonos, U+0384=E2=80=94while the former, Greek Oxia (U+1FF= D) belongs to Robert> the group that was deprecated. So it is the other way round: k= eep the Robert> former, and make the latter go. ^^^^^^ Now I=CA=BCm confused :-) Currently greek.el input methods insert \u1ffd, rather than \u0384. Which one do you want? Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 14:16:45 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 18:16:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54658 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoAxR-0004Ap-1b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:16:45 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f65.google.com ([209.85.221.65]:46668) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoAxO-0004AY-Hh for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:16:43 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f65.google.com with SMTP id z1so29679263wru.13 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:16:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tcd-ie.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ITgr50owweyCq+Q6J7HZZPqOBY7owRrTZ7Ba1l8kRuE=; b=jx6T4fvdwT/vqcO1IPyyL4Qm1wumgu1Pf+Y807uv7BhM4NtcuAE21UwZ0k89a1ezQR ZAsxsYEaE70JPqeVY+I4OqoJn7jafRTaia4d2xWUogsOhY1t+l8NVlkBBHuzbwBVd2/j 0u6bVk+khscnu+tL6ZDO+dSpGPnLJgkvG2R27k3ODoubJKzxX2WIjj8bzTlPXY9ZhqWg AhGGeR5Nfqde6MWPIZwutpKftoF8sj03J2H7zlrbBKvJTJ4ff/FyZV2HUlWSd9+E1ppi danlJqI8oJ7D9MNzv1LQEbyMDWBLO5hwughDsDyu13Kt6DkSBYe3oo8iHLaKWB0oU1C3 c4Bw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ITgr50owweyCq+Q6J7HZZPqOBY7owRrTZ7Ba1l8kRuE=; b=s8GPHIVm/y6hp796/DC9xKrekdJK5vnvaqOdVJnK4dCGJZ/s6nihwCSsHURV+dQFL1 PHEeF8t4kS9nbkKfPPZ9E71Q93XdzzOW0/Bi2lEu9NMjipHflsaUxFdCyikebt2tPXH/ 4q09sevgMyEoBa4UP1iNdn5me69IgSwjRpbPs3NcOEOmPR6p5Lltm3al44e/CQHuOZjQ F5NaTOYK06XHFmnachJyj1D7IGW2xbIouPTO/q2FIiaBpZXXOd8OH+waMyKWMpKdVeWg BhKr6Lj5l3Dy2BFre59UBMtY+WaFN5xuYn3KiZGJM0CYSGXshmmXSVZnObTdtR6qTkhk yGpA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXcFahMyxqQGVZWoVIb4Y9Uge7ltvziKQZoUF2qFhxWOBLhkU2g 3M5BlwzoM5Nck2C1Ss8yNVAPLBxwM7M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwic8ikRsdzBK1KM8fDSByT03cyoHVuvAIJbWyYp0xZtAHiiYRgAlNl0ag/oqINUfKLvaBLTg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:e841:: with SMTP id d1mr51714688wrn.204.1563473796790; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2a02:8084:20e2:c380:1f68:7ff5:120d:64e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u186sm43565997wmu.26.2019.07.18.11.16.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:16:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" To: Robert Alessi Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:16:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> (Robert Alessi's message of "Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:03:10 +0200") Message-ID: <87lfwv2oot.fsf@tcd.ie> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Robert Alessi writes: > As of 2016, the latest versions of Unicode (as of 2016) have now > formally deprecated and removed the vowel+oxia combinations from the > Greek extended range, leaving only the vowel+tonos from the basic Greek > and Coptic range. Where is the deprecation documented? What do you mean by "removed"? AFAIK all of the "deprecated" codepoints are still part of the latest Unicode standard[1]. > As a result of this deprecation, the sixteen characters found in > greek.el (Quail package for inputting Greek) that use extended > codepoints should be replaced with those that use basic codepoints. I'm not opposed to such a simple search+replace[2], but I'm no expert on these matters (so please bear with me), and I wonder what effects, if any, such a change may have. AFAICT all occurrences of the "deprecated" codepoints in greek.el appear in classical Greek input methods, not the modern Greek input methods greek or greek-postfix. Would users of the classical input methods ever want to explicitly use the oxia, not tonos, variants? What confuses me is that, AIUI, the "deprecated" codepoints should decompose to their Greek and Coptic counterparts[3]. How does Quail interplay with Unicode normalisation? [1]: https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1F00.pdf [2]: Indeed, I've seen people trip over this discrepancy, but I forgot to follow up on this: https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/43927/15748 [3]: http://www.unicode.org/charts/normalization/ > All affected characters can be found here: --> > https://wiki.digitalclassicist.org/Greek_Unicode_duplicated_vowels#Affect= ed_characters > > Although most Unicode Greek fonts display both versions identically, in > some cases, not using basic codepoints can break advanced features such > as alternate forms in Greek script. To take an example, if some feature > is supposed to distinguish between regular and `curly' *beta* (=CE=B2/=CF= =90) so > as to print the `curly' shape if the *beta* is found in medial position, > the substitution will succeed in =CE=B2=CE=AC=CF=81=CE=B2=CE=B1=CF=81=CE= =BF=CF=82, but fail in =CE=BB=CE=AC=CE=B2=CF=81=CE=BF=CF=82 just > because of the extended codepoint of =CE=AC that is used by `greek.el`. How does the use of oxia instead of tonos on the alpha affect the substitution of the beta? Thanks, --=20 Basil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 14:16:51 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 18:16:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54661 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoAxV-0004B6-Ds for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:16:49 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f65.google.com ([209.85.128.65]:55947) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoAxT-0004Ah-Ak for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:16:48 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f65.google.com with SMTP id a15so26485656wmj.5 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:16:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tcd-ie.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=Vbsmdk9UswfuAq+v2k5kNpNIj6uISPVLTZuo7ZppH4s=; b=vztb4ud3QN/FrJwEZ23MGDhBTcYH9BDugL+pt+HDgGN6+bc6Gg7+lkcoJHajcYY291 PRd87TVuzgq7B5RrIC3WHvccIFsoqddcP5ZYPuYGYrSMxqTiLYbrPN38adr9grqZUqKw hvtteZGiBdYTmsoUGy6BSJErfFWWI/aimVO9TbyBSBaK3/0v0+g4sEdFGcjivl0VPGl8 Vn34uBzs78PZxE7x17ws3AavyXUfdg6azJScBWXr2sdAO4JRyqN7YClrOW0JoXT3JS4D 7aEKR/mBnO3LTlSYh6C0v2hBU4QOnFlhlU6SsO0Vic37qqDPCU0+fEzdmoW3iusVfPn+ E/HA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=Vbsmdk9UswfuAq+v2k5kNpNIj6uISPVLTZuo7ZppH4s=; b=VMILLrDRuqTqlKf7EvaNfKaxsWGtePsI9LhC09aa3ivT0NMKZ+ZzKSsUzaYF5kQzV+ 6T9yYekZShTSFh6izcKogHfh5yb+j1HiXhfH+T1yq6zzyVay4j2vhIl1bvIRUqDFyz1Q CCGrNJVAmLbkB3Mcji03ZanfQQby3c24gBItcJL7guvQavIeGhDuWgIjJalU8yuKXVPJ YNIZ5TXOLNvDYjvetY9vDUFUdVaYGSVH7rKn2Fh9cPq2GkiHc7kr+ZfjS2xkRrXhBgAP QVtmvetIVA6CeK4le7gFHWRJq0rGkLAwjOfI0lIrs7/EAe6GKuHRV5frGCRfcNcL59zs 0g1A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWzMx/k96eolKfDjz1YNcGspb174IG0szcuGXEV+Xi38X/nisYF FY7N32RQCRrWpIao9OwVt3Ra7A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx1Jd98tVzTsvLETL5smmV74G4eDTbLYx6hctZbGnCwIcjBDS1IUyDb7vaXJqa2b5OoOUf6Xw== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:b706:: with SMTP id h6mr42322859wmf.119.1563473801631; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2a02:8084:20e2:c380:1f68:7ff5:120d:64e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s25sm21857345wmc.21.2019.07.18.11.16.40 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:16:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" To: Robert Alessi Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:16:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Robert Pluim's message of "Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:54:45 +0200") Message-ID: <87k1cf2ooo.fsf@tcd.ie> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Robert Pluim writes: >>>>>> On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:03:10 +0200, Robert Alessi said: > > Robert> As of 2016, the latest versions of Unicode (as of 2016) have now > Robert> formally deprecated and removed the vowel+oxia combinations from the > Robert> Greek extended range, leaving only the vowel+tonos from the basic Greek > Robert> and Coptic range. > > Robert> As a result of this deprecation, the sixteen characters found in > Robert> greek.el (Quail package for inputting Greek) that use extended > Robert> codepoints should be replaced with those that use basic codepoints. All > Robert> affected characters can be found here: > --> > Robert> https://wiki.digitalclassicist.org/Greek_Unicode_duplicated_vowels#Affected_characters > > I took a look at greek.el, that shouldn't be difficult. Indeed, it's just a simple search+replace: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/x-diff; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline; filename=0001-Replace-Greek-vowel-oxia-with-vowel-tonos-in-Quail.patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From 1e7e52b25d70f827644e179f2c921adda31306fc Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 15:52:33 +0100 Subject: [PATCH] Replace Greek vowel+oxia with vowel+tonos in Quail * lisp/leim/quail/greek.el (greek-mizuochi, greek-babel) (greek-ibycus4): * lisp/leim/quail/rfc1345.el (rfc1345): Replace vowel+oxia characters from the Greek Extended block with their equivalent vowel+tonos characters from the Greek and Coptic block (bug#36717). --- lisp/leim/quail/greek.el | 82 +++++++++++++++++++------------------- lisp/leim/quail/rfc1345.el | 30 +++++++------- 2 files changed, 56 insertions(+), 56 deletions(-) diff --git a/lisp/leim/quail/greek.el b/lisp/leim/quail/greek.el index 66a17a29f5..e5d3100390 100644 --- a/lisp/leim/quail/greek.el +++ b/lisp/leim/quail/greek.el @@ -264,7 +264,7 @@ "greek-mizuochi" =20 ("i`" ?=E1=BC=B1) ("iV" ?=E1=BC=B1) ("i'" ?=E1=BC=B0) ("iv" ?=E1=BC=B0) - ("i/" ?=E1=BD=B7) + ("i/" ?=CE=AF) ("i`/" ?=E1=BC=B5) ("iV/" ?=E1=BC=B5) ("i/`" ?=E1=BC=B5) ("i/V" ?=E1=BC= =B5) ("i'/" ?=E1=BC=B4) ("iv/" ?=E1=BC=B4) ("i/'" ?=E1=BC=B4) ("i/v" ?=E1=BC= =B4) ("i?" ?=E1=BD=B6) @@ -276,7 +276,7 @@ "greek-mizuochi" ("i'^" ?=E1=BC=B6) ("i'\\" ?=E1=BC=B6) ("iv^" ?=E1=BC=B6) ("iv\\" ?=E1= =BC=B6) ("i^'" ?=E1=BC=B6) ("i\\'" ?=E1=BC=B6) ("i^v" ?=E1=BC=B6) ("i\\v" ?=E1= =BC=B6) ("i\"" ?=CF=8A) - ("i/\"" ?=E1=BF=93) ("i\"/" ?=E1=BF=93) + ("i/\"" ?=CE=90) ("i\"/" ?=CE=90) ("i?\"" ?=E1=BF=92) ("i\"?" ?=E1=BF=92) =20 ("^`" ?=E1=BF=9F) ("^V" ?=E1=BF=9F) ("\\`" ?=E1=BF=9F) ("\\V" ?=E1=BF= =9F) @@ -292,7 +292,7 @@ "greek-mizuochi" =20 ("e`" ?=E1=BC=91) ("eV" ?=E1=BC=91) ("e'" ?=E1=BC=90) ("ev" ?=E1=BC=90) - ("e/" ?=E1=BD=B3) + ("e/" ?=CE=AD) ("e/`" ?=E1=BC=95) ("e/V" ?=E1=BC=95) ("e`/" ?=E1=BC=95) ("eV/" ?=E1=BC= =95) ("e/'" ?=E1=BC=94) ("e/v" ?=E1=BC=94) ("e'/" ?=E1=BC=94) ("ev/" ?=E1=BC= =94) ("e?" ?=E1=BD=B2) @@ -301,7 +301,7 @@ "greek-mizuochi" =20 ("a`" ?=E1=BC=81) ("aV" ?=E1=BC=81) ("a'" ?=E1=BC=80) ("av" ?=E1=BC=80) - ("a/" ?=E1=BD=B1) + ("a/" ?=CE=AC) ("a/`" ?=E1=BC=85) ("a/V" ?=E1=BC=85) ("a`/" ?=E1=BC=85) ("aV/" ?=E1=BC= =85) ("a/'" ?=E1=BC=84) ("a/v" ?=E1=BC=84) ("a'/" ?=E1=BC=84) ("av/" ?=E1=BC= =84) ("a?" ?=E1=BD=B0) @@ -332,7 +332,7 @@ "greek-mizuochi" =20 ("h`" ?=E1=BC=A1) ("hV" ?=E1=BC=A1) ("h'" ?=E1=BC=A0) ("hv" ?=E1=BC=A0) - ("h/" ?=E1=BD=B5) + ("h/" ?=CE=AE) ("h/`" ?=E1=BC=A5) ("h/V" ?=E1=BC=A5) ("h`/" ?=E1=BC=A5) ("hV/" ?=E1=BC= =A5) ("h/'" ?=E1=BC=A4) ("h/v" ?=E1=BC=A4) ("h'/" ?=E1=BC=A4) ("hv/" ?=E1=BC= =A4) ("h?" ?=E1=BD=B4) @@ -362,7 +362,7 @@ "greek-mizuochi" =20 ("o`" ?=E1=BD=81) ("oV" ?=E1=BD=81) ("o'" ?=E1=BD=80) ("ov" ?=E1=BD=80) - ("o/" ?=E1=BD=B9) + ("o/" ?=CF=8C) ("o/`" ?=E1=BD=85) ("o/V" ?=E1=BD=85) ("o`/" ?=E1=BD=85) ("oV/" ?=E1=BD= =85) ("o/'" ?=E1=BD=84) ("o/v" ?=E1=BD=84) ("o'/" ?=E1=BD=84) ("ov/" ?=E1=BD= =84) ("o?" ?=E1=BD=B8) @@ -371,7 +371,7 @@ "greek-mizuochi" =20 ("u`" ?=E1=BD=91) ("uV" ?=E1=BD=91) ("u'" ?=E1=BD=90) ("uv" ?=E1=BD=90) - ("u/" ?=E1=BD=BB) + ("u/" ?=CF=8D) ("u/`" ?=E1=BD=95) ("u/V" ?=E1=BD=95) ("u`/" ?=E1=BD=95) ("uV/" ?=E1=BD= =95) ("u/'" ?=E1=BD=94) ("u/v" ?=E1=BD=94) ("u'/" ?=E1=BD=94) ("uv/" ?=E1=BD= =94) ("u?" ?=E1=BD=BA) @@ -383,12 +383,12 @@ "greek-mizuochi" ("u^'" ?=E1=BD=96) ("u^v" ?=E1=BD=96) ("u\\'" ?=E1=BD=96) ("u\\v" ?=E1= =BD=96) ("u'^" ?=E1=BD=96) ("uv^" ?=E1=BD=96) ("u'\\" ?=E1=BD=96) ("uv\\" ?=E1= =BD=96) ("u\"" ?=CF=8B) - ("u\"/" ?=E1=BF=A3) ("u/\"" ?=E1=BF=A3) + ("u\"/" ?=CE=B0) ("u/\"" ?=CE=B0) ("u\"?" ?=E1=BF=A2) ("u?\"" ?=E1=BF=A2) =20 ("w`" ?=E1=BD=A1) ("wV" ?=E1=BD=A1) ("w'" ?=E1=BD=A0) ("wv" ?=E1=BD=A0) - ("w/" ?=E1=BD=BD) + ("w/" ?=CF=8E) ("w/`" ?=E1=BD=A5) ("w/V" ?=E1=BD=A5) ("w`/" ?=E1=BD=A5) ("wV/" ?=E1=BD= =A5) ("w/'" ?=E1=BD=A4) ("w/v" ?=E1=BD=A4) ("w'/" ?=E1=BD=A4) ("wv/" ?=E1=BD= =A4) ("w?" ?=E1=BD=BC) @@ -551,7 +551,7 @@ "greek-babel" =20 ("i" ?=E1=BC=B0) - ("'i" ?=E1=BD=B7) + ("'i" ?=CE=AF) ("<'i" ?=E1=BC=B5) (">'i" ?=E1=BC=B4) ("`i" ?=E1=BD=B6) @@ -561,12 +561,12 @@ "greek-babel" ("<~i" ?=E1=BC=B7) (">~i" ?=E1=BC=B6) ("\"i" ?=CF=8A) - ("\"'i" ?=E1=BF=93) + ("\"'i" ?=CE=90) ("\"`i" ?=E1=BF=92) =20 ("I" ?=E1=BC=B8) - ("'I" ?=E1=BF=9B) + ("'I" ?=CE=8A) ("<'I" ?=E1=BC=BD) (">'I" ?=E1=BC=BC) ("`I" ?=E1=BF=9A) @@ -587,7 +587,7 @@ "greek-babel" =20 ("e" ?=E1=BC=90) - ("'e" ?=E1=BD=B3) + ("'e" ?=CE=AD) ("<'e" ?=E1=BC=95) (">'e" ?=E1=BC=94) ("`e" ?=E1=BD=B2) @@ -596,7 +596,7 @@ "greek-babel" =20 ("E" ?=E1=BC=98) - ("'E" ?=E1=BF=89) + ("'E" ?=CE=88) ("<'E" ?=E1=BC=9D) (">'E" ?=E1=BC=9C) ("`E" ?=E1=BF=88) @@ -605,7 +605,7 @@ "greek-babel" =20 ("a" ?=E1=BC=80) - ("'a" ?=E1=BD=B1) + ("'a" ?=CE=AC) ("<'a" ?=E1=BC=85) (">'a" ?=E1=BC=84) ("`a" ?=E1=BD=B0) @@ -617,7 +617,7 @@ "greek-babel" =20 ("A" ?=E1=BC=88) - ("'A" ?=E1=BE=BB) + ("'A" ?=CE=86) ("<'A" ?=E1=BC=8D) (">'A" ?=E1=BC=8C) ("`A" ?=E1=BE=BA) @@ -654,7 +654,7 @@ "greek-babel" =20 ("h" ?=E1=BC=A0) - ("'h" ?=E1=BD=B5) + ("'h" ?=CE=AE) ("<'h" ?=E1=BC=A5) (">'h" ?=E1=BC=A4) ("`h" ?=E1=BD=B4) @@ -666,7 +666,7 @@ "greek-babel" =20 ("H" ?=E1=BC=A8) - ("'H" ?=E1=BF=8B) + ("'H" ?=CE=89) ("<'H" ?=E1=BC=AD) (">'H" ?=E1=BC=AC) ("`H" ?=E1=BF=8A) @@ -700,7 +700,7 @@ "greek-babel" =20 ("o" ?=E1=BD=80) - ("'o" ?=E1=BD=B9) + ("'o" ?=CF=8C) ("<'o" ?=E1=BD=85) (">'o" ?=E1=BD=84) ("`o" ?=E1=BD=B8) @@ -709,7 +709,7 @@ "greek-babel" =20 ("O" ?=E1=BD=88) - ("'O" ?=E1=BF=B9) + ("'O" ?=CE=8C) ("<'O" ?=E1=BD=8D) (">'O" ?=E1=BD=8C) ("`O" ?=E1=BF=B8) @@ -718,7 +718,7 @@ "greek-babel" =20 ("u" ?=E1=BD=90) - ("'u" ?=E1=BD=BB) + ("'u" ?=CF=8D) ("<'u" ?=E1=BD=95) (">'u" ?=E1=BD=94) ("`u" ?=E1=BD=BA) @@ -728,11 +728,11 @@ "greek-babel" ("<~u" ?=E1=BD=97) (">~u" ?=E1=BD=96) ("\"u" ?=CF=8B) - ("\"'u" ?=E1=BF=A3) + ("\"'u" ?=CE=B0) ("`\"u" ?=E1=BF=A2) =20 ("w" ?=E1=BD=A0) - ("'w" ?=E1=BD=BD) + ("'w" ?=CF=8E) ("<'w" ?=E1=BD=A5) (">'w" ?=E1=BD=A4) ("`w" ?=E1=BD=BC) @@ -753,7 +753,7 @@ "greek-babel" =20 ("W" ?=E1=BD=A8) - ("'W" ?=E1=BF=BB) + ("'W" ?=CE=8F) ("<'W" ?=E1=BD=AD) (">'W" ?=E1=BD=AC) ("`W" ?=E1=BF=BA) @@ -992,19 +992,19 @@ "greek-ibycus4" ("(=3DW" ?=E1=BD=AF) =20 ("a`" ?=E1=BD=B0) - ("a'" ?=E1=BD=B1) + ("a'" ?=CE=AC) ("e`" ?=E1=BD=B2) - ("e'" ?=E1=BD=B3) + ("e'" ?=CE=AD) ("h`" ?=E1=BD=B4) - ("h'" ?=E1=BD=B5) + ("h'" ?=CE=AE) ("i`" ?=E1=BD=B6) - ("i'" ?=E1=BD=B7) + ("i'" ?=CE=AF) ("o`" ?=E1=BD=B8) - ("o'" ?=E1=BD=B9) + ("o'" ?=CF=8C) ("u`" ?=E1=BD=BA) - ("u'" ?=E1=BD=BB) + ("u'" ?=CF=8D) ("w`" ?=E1=BD=BC) - ("w'" ?=E1=BD=BD) + ("w'" ?=CF=8E) =20 ("a)|" ?=E1=BE=80) ("a(|" ?=E1=BE=81) @@ -1067,7 +1067,7 @@ "greek-ibycus4" ("a=3D|" ?=E1=BE=B7) =20 ("`A" ?=E1=BE=BA) - ("'A" ?=E1=BE=BB) + ("'A" ?=CE=86) ("A|" ?=E1=BE=BC) =20 (")" ?=E1=BE=BF) ; #x1fbf ; psili @@ -1081,10 +1081,10 @@ "greek-ibycus4" ("h=3D|" ?=E1=BF=87) =20 ("`E" ?=E1=BF=88) - ("'E" ?=E1=BF=89) + ("'E" ?=CE=88) =20 ("`H" ?=E1=BF=8A) - ("'H" ?=E1=BF=8B) + ("'H" ?=CE=89) ("H|" ?=E1=BF=8C) =20 (")`" ?=E1=BF=8D) ; #x1fcd @@ -1092,19 +1092,19 @@ "greek-ibycus4" (")=3D" ?=E1=BF=8F) ; #x1fcf =20 ("i+`" ?=E1=BF=92) - ("i+'" ?=E1=BF=93) + ("i+'" ?=CE=90) ("i=3D" ?=E1=BF=96) ("i+=3D" ?=E1=BF=97) =20 ("`I" ?=E1=BF=9A) - ("'I" ?=E1=BF=9B) + ("'I" ?=CE=8A) =20 ("(`" ?=E1=BF=9D) ; #x1fdd ("('" ?=E1=BF=9E) ; #x1fde ("(=3D" ?=E1=BF=9F) ; #x1fdf =20 ("u+`" ?=E1=BF=A2) - ("u+'" ?=E1=BF=A3) + ("u+'" ?=CE=B0) =20 ("r)" ?=E1=BF=A4) ("r(" ?=E1=BF=A5) @@ -1113,7 +1113,7 @@ "greek-ibycus4" ("u+=3D" ?=E1=BF=A7) =20 ("`U" ?=E1=BF=AA) - ("'U" ?=E1=BF=AB) + ("'U" ?=CE=8E) =20 ("`R" ?=E1=BF=AC) =20 @@ -1128,10 +1128,10 @@ "greek-ibycus4" ("w=3D|" ?=E1=BF=B7) =20 ("`O" ?=E1=BF=B8) - ("'O" ?=E1=BF=B9) + ("'O" ?=CE=8C) =20 ("`W" ?=E1=BF=BA) - ("'W" ?=E1=BF=BB) + ("'W" ?=CE=8F) ("W|" ?=E1=BF=BC) =20 ("'" ?=E1=BF=BD) ; #x1ffd ; oxia diff --git a/lisp/leim/quail/rfc1345.el b/lisp/leim/quail/rfc1345.el index da1a453a9c..c08fa398c0 100644 --- a/lisp/leim/quail/rfc1345.el +++ b/lisp/leim/quail/rfc1345.el @@ -35,7 +35,7 @@ nil t nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil t) =20 (quail-define-rules -;; There doesn't seem to be any point in including ASCII. + ;; There doesn't seem to be any point in including ASCII. ("&PA" ?\200) ("&HO" ?\201) ("&BH" ?\202) @@ -928,19 +928,19 @@ ("&W*," ?=E1=BD=A8) ("&W*;" ?=E1=BD=A9) ("&a*!" ?=E1=BD=B0) - ("&a*'" ?=E1=BD=B1) + ("&a*'" ?=CE=AC) ("&e*!" ?=E1=BD=B2) - ("&e*'" ?=E1=BD=B3) + ("&e*'" ?=CE=AD) ("&y*!" ?=E1=BD=B4) - ("&y*'" ?=E1=BD=B5) + ("&y*'" ?=CE=AE) ("&i*!" ?=E1=BD=B6) - ("&i*'" ?=E1=BD=B7) + ("&i*'" ?=CE=AF) ("&o*!" ?=E1=BD=B8) - ("&o*'" ?=E1=BD=B9) + ("&o*'" ?=CF=8C) ("&u*!" ?=E1=BD=BA) - ("&u*'" ?=E1=BD=BB) + ("&u*'" ?=CF=8D) ("&w*!" ?=E1=BD=BC) - ("&w*'" ?=E1=BD=BD) + ("&w*'" ?=CF=8E) ("&a*(" ?=E1=BE=B0) ("&a*-" ?=E1=BE=B1) ("&a*j" ?=E1=BE=B3) @@ -948,7 +948,7 @@ ("&A*(" ?=E1=BE=B8) ("&A*-" ?=E1=BE=B9) ("&A*!" ?=E1=BE=BA) - ("&A*'" ?=E1=BE=BB) + ("&A*'" ?=CE=86) ("&A*J" ?=E1=BE=BC) ("&)*" ?=E1=BE=BD) ("&J3" ?=E1=BE=BE) @@ -957,9 +957,9 @@ ("&?:" ?=E1=BF=81) ("&y*j" ?=E1=BF=83) ("&y*?" ?=E1=BF=86) - ("&E*'" ?=E1=BF=89) + ("&E*'" ?=CE=88) ("&Y*!" ?=E1=BF=8A) - ("&Y*'" ?=E1=BF=8B) + ("&Y*'" ?=CE=89) ("&Y*J" ?=E1=BF=8C) ("&,!" ?=E1=BF=8D) ("&,'" ?=E1=BF=8E) @@ -970,7 +970,7 @@ ("&I*(" ?=E1=BF=98) ("&I*-" ?=E1=BF=99) ("&I*!" ?=E1=BF=9A) - ("&I*'" ?=E1=BF=9B) + ("&I*'" ?=CE=8A) ("&;!" ?=E1=BF=9D) ("&;'" ?=E1=BF=9E) ("&?;" ?=E1=BF=9F) @@ -982,7 +982,7 @@ ("&U*(" ?=E1=BF=A8) ("&U*-" ?=E1=BF=A9) ("&U*!" ?=E1=BF=AA) - ("&U*'" ?=E1=BF=AB) + ("&U*'" ?=CE=8E) ("&R*;" ?=E1=BF=AC) ("&!:" ?=E1=BF=AD) ("&:'" ?=E1=BF=AE) @@ -990,9 +990,9 @@ ("&w*j" ?=E1=BF=B3) ("&w*?" ?=E1=BF=B6) ("&O*!" ?=E1=BF=B8) - ("&O*'" ?=E1=BF=B9) + ("&O*'" ?=CE=8C) ("&W*!" ?=E1=BF=BA) - ("&W*'" ?=E1=BF=BB) + ("&W*'" ?=CE=8F) ("&W*J" ?=E1=BF=BC) ("&/*" ?=E1=BF=BD) ("&;;" ?=E1=BF=BE) --=20 2.20.1 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain > What about GREEK OXIA vs GREEK TONOS as standalone characters? Should > we replace the former with the latter? I'm not sure; see my other message. AFAIK vowels composed with oxia decompose to their tonos counterparts, but not so oxia itself. I'm still confused as to what Quail should do with these equivalences. Should it always use the simplest possible composition? Thanks, -- Basil --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 14:19:13 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 18:19:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54666 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoAzp-0004Fh-6X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:19:13 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f65.google.com ([209.85.128.65]:35171) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoAzn-0004FU-Jl for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:19:11 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f65.google.com with SMTP id l2so26632226wmg.0 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:19:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tcd-ie.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oh4oUg/fda7W0BG9ULNbLjWTDJk627rIAdJHOgK0NkE=; b=uYcaku6r1DDgWx2FzH38yOUXl2mYPZeQzW+X7uoUD2VXCT+NtkyoxR+3Mc2KlrIHkm rKK8IECvYswt4EerbDiTzRrQCNBNmGOmwyQw27TPHe5wiTq/JGhXF1RAC0y9pTgbtdF3 Z++bvQPXHTi/zARp1AxAuKE4y0f9575nZ0G2GwaqxjUa404u8l77PCLR3zuCF8ZBqSXf afvcC8WxLDCU+e6/Wg1PJXVcm89eUdVScgEmrsX5MRzHUu1f9Gt7ndiMZTELQU0RYwlU D4WJarMI/CCdYD1BX9sCNojusbyes6LHht42Gpf7nGTC4qOMUCxV4Fboy2goWEGPC6lJ 1dmA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oh4oUg/fda7W0BG9ULNbLjWTDJk627rIAdJHOgK0NkE=; b=oJxE60Vilb34f5jTwWy1/TOcxqAXxjlsf3GRw2pbNoimFN0LZggn72kbhA4TbW+rCe sXEg/1tyBDT8/pwgRoXMeSim0gmP/mzfQ6s++D5EFTdwZvN5XdFA8Yk8OdyBw/1EW15Q uIdbFW49zYRAUlP5mi+3WEp7dYqqScpIM5oN6mjSZlMGc1VdeHwEzM8haMfmyVXhfesl tH+2JuegNMKNv4GOz0Eac/qUmdSwlSr7d2JVfX/wly6661rvlXQlaFB7cWJtqhQ5xWu4 zuufM2yoj6aFeGxFF8ZI+YBEGhfxVXBWxIO5Jtk7pw2Wo9VBZ4cTIVD6wQpzRpqIGa1f YDyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVgwd0xVQi2Tr/T9/e7o+mt0at7RyltduH/YR1+MKfMgPLHCXEX 0zIF5aN56RE0O2mk1Xnq/l+pgA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzRzR0dPa7qZ6wgmvRPTkTbOEv5Db3/Ovvx4VayX4svZj6mf60izRCT390RVoLeGTr7Homkog== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c4d2:: with SMTP id g18mr43791394wmk.79.1563473946043; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2a02:8084:20e2:c380:1f68:7ff5:120d:64e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s2sm22790865wmj.33.2019.07.18.11.19.05 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:19:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" To: Robert Alessi Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:19:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> (Robert Alessi's message of "Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:32:52 +0200") Message-ID: <87blxr2okn.fsf@tcd.ie> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: Robert Pluim , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Robert Alessi writes: > On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 04:54:45PM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: >> >>>>> On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:03:10 +0200, Robert Alessi said: >>=20 >> Robert> As of 2016, the latest versions of Unicode (as of 2016) have= now >> Robert> formally deprecated and removed the vowel+oxia combinations = from the >> Robert> Greek extended range, leaving only the vowel+tonos from the = basic Greek >> Robert> and Coptic range. >>=20 >> Robert> As a result of this deprecation, the sixteen characters foun= d in >> Robert> greek.el (Quail package for inputting Greek) that use extend= ed >> Robert> codepoints should be replaced with those that use basic code= points. All >> Robert> affected characters can be found here: >> -->=20 >> Robert> https://wiki.digitalclassicist.org/Greek_Unicode_duplicated_= vowels#Affected_characters >>=20 >> I took a look at greek.el, that shouldn't be difficult. What about >> GREEK OXIA vs GREEK TONOS as standalone characters? Should we replace >> the former with the latter? > > Very well spotted. Actually, the latter is the right one=E2=80=94that is: > Greek Tonos, U+0384=E2=80=94while the former, Greek Oxia (U+1FFD) belongs= to > the group that was deprecated. So it is the other way round: keep the > former, and make the latter go. AFAICT the link you provided does not say anything about oxia the standalone character. I'm still interested in seeing some documentation on this deprecation that is not from digitalclassicist.org. Thanks, --=20 Basil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 14:47:07 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 18:47:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54685 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoBQp-00050K-31 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:47:07 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:37838) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoBQn-00050B-1f for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:47:05 -0400 Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51B751B93A8; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:47:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: 6588FF86C98149666FE194BEA071584B72ABB67A3720044F08035B54178F503F Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9C2AE1203CB; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 20:47:00 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Robert Pluim Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 08:06:13PM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: > >>>>> On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:32:52 +0200, Robert Alessi said: > Robert> Very well spotted. Actually, the latter is the right one—that is: > ^^^^^^ > Robert> Greek Tonos, U+0384—while the former, Greek Oxia (U+1FFD) belongs to > Robert> the group that was deprecated. So it is the other way round: keep the > Robert> former, and make the latter go. > ^^^^^^ > > Now Iʼm confused :-) > > Currently greek.el input methods insert \u1ffd, rather than > \u0384. Which one do you want? That is not entirely true, I daresay, for I did find a couple of \u0384 in this file. But I got confused at some point in my previous email! What I meant is: keep Greek Tonos (\u0384), and replace Greek Oxia with Greek Tonos. Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 14:47:52 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 18:47:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54694 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoBRX-00051h-IF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:47:51 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f48.google.com ([209.85.128.48]:50369) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoBRV-00051Q-3r for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:47:49 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f48.google.com with SMTP id v15so26597259wml.0 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:47:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:mail-copies-to:gmane-reply-to-list :date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lP+Avh0J1Cuo/dh/OKWttCuKnX0HPDTJKNuKeBQpiF0=; b=cVNW5RyuC+DxhxI+AETvgBLDKpcLHsFu6Zee/m/KQ4+e4G5425gNPj1xgcBn08vskf ffB9rJPoLSrG50xjxIr5KrtM7Zqvhe/TQ/Mn3l4aJzlbcKhrNpPvZJf8pxDARzT+OtwR eVzaEowAGb1g/Kd3KjaE1qEboczgCk/UA+Hjoo+Ey6FMz6mpGUDKkLQYgp8SheR0BmFW QS6AZGZMzjsMC69xvADefVrCMyKgRk5c1AerzkuKaZtsD+PlQh/VgCCnw7KnXcuFfi8h On0hRxxzwjU27ATy++Qj0h3cm1C5fwDCP1+0Qvct4tulwsgpajiI+U8q3mY7SxcD4NY/ IHSQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:mail-copies-to :gmane-reply-to-list:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lP+Avh0J1Cuo/dh/OKWttCuKnX0HPDTJKNuKeBQpiF0=; b=U+BvVGLebt8gOT9r50nEplpW2lT+9VFjMr2Z+r12wgR989w51jKna96vHab+uxzUPR SPWOJ/i1N1xAvWZMPcXpcgo5HZGWVknj8G3nNCk9ZBx9NBcwlSqFcgnj1I56RQT1UXmi FlSr8KV/m4fd/IKpyjngxggqQlbrUVZTmHx11B4XmK1NuQcWp6zBsH26S2NhF4iExdlx fo559MKsIxysIinMaYPjuZga4CSKTJppuusAT4Y9fLKHEws2+I2qqNUE6cW7mNCxZNVV MVpDSyDPY3QrJLAKWRVekuL6n4q86Gxti6sYo5doGQUgSEuxKTiOV0Jn5MrT/B29xl45 fbVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUM6+C5sypmvSPUNXWOd5fvngkujayrQK4D809OQTPJ3UmTvFzE FcZxxWceNsHDgqlqIyBLRoUC6kfp X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz02c+yXBnadm3gTCtsVZT+kbo4vbnt8bYXFMMbbagosOTfvqGnJ90n4bLR/MirKrXkf5XGoQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:6c01:: with SMTP id h1mr43287884wmc.30.1563475662616; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rpluim-mac ([2a01:e34:ecfc:a860:654d:cd3a:755a:ad29]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x20sm55274037wrg.10.2019.07.18.11.47.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:47:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Pluim To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87k1cf2ooo.fsf@tcd.ie> X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Gmane-Reply-To-List: yes Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 20:47:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87k1cf2ooo.fsf@tcd.ie> (Basil L. Contovounesios's message of "Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:16:39 +0100") Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org, Robert Alessi X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:16:39 +0100, "Basil L. Contovounesios" said: >> What about GREEK OXIA vs GREEK TONOS as standalone characters? Should >> we replace the former with the latter? Basil> I'm not sure; see my other message. AFAIK vowels composed with = oxia Basil> decompose to their tonos counterparts, but not so oxia itself. = I'm Basil> still confused as to what Quail should do with these equivalence= s. Basil> Should it always use the simplest possible composition? I=CA=BCm not sure either. Neither are combining characters, so I doubt it matters, but consistency probably calls for tonos rather than oxia (although we can also arrange for both to be available). Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 14:57:28 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 18:57:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54703 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoBaq-0005GS-01 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:57:28 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f47.google.com ([209.85.128.47]:37205) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoBao-0005GD-KU for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:57:27 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f47.google.com with SMTP id f17so26696160wme.2 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:57:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Dv2b3Ckxm66R3vTkqokQ9f+Ujg4vGqIA9G1+XVmx4lU=; b=Sg0ZSgmc0QDYFqAaG80/qeozlkyKnQBKTwnDE0kg0GY/XNSGpLEGn7WJgrPHHey5KK UVnT6ShJsDjOTuH25/XtcqmA6vq2WL+uEzvnVQJRrvwWeMqd0+4lMEsZ9kHHl+jX+qtV H/tG/fosmy2LTMg4vjxusWPaAeLelscRatfGsuO8mNztb6xRIAr2pr0ukcwUv/1vXShR rbXWE5b8P2YgTkaWCnG548TzWBiiXb0oBn1OQ0pRSep2Fa5ONCcmuI8UyPn94qG+et1l 72v4UKlhQ9KkKmmQfGj4+ivkvBRIqawcvBRijYVwaAXqg3xSRbuGi0nLRAhIpZYn5r6R YDiw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Dv2b3Ckxm66R3vTkqokQ9f+Ujg4vGqIA9G1+XVmx4lU=; b=i9bvW5c6YPcgs1THBzH79mrfkIkCuLhR/nRsaqCnzv6lkVsfCy8eRN2BkEiXoVbdiy 2WUVnslCzad7Nb1PQxivKHu7TXGOXOOxqzmAaThA8duYtWdWe9dRh2SvODUUlcKxvfUy z8s7A9qS+1G5n3zNzlIIDL+QQlzrMHXXOmOmAmcUgjg9xLHnJsbNSInaDqfJSWrbQF07 37eyuUwy4NtEsRAsMAFAwgXbdhN1Dmh/I08MAVavdkk+cCssDks0KHsHvNDv5ih57i6v P8VOj24nkMtHgZ0Yp3zh+hpC+53IjVfjlulRNaemaXhBX1fsbKHRI2kCeYO5EqrUzOeY UJSg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVz+wVSo2QMiebNTRffUDiG0fzvsKJz8NMVqCS/BgjZ4RnZy+dA o/Cu+WWaNwSm9QcYtiOddvDOBTML X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwy5BBYE3oeFEo31VY9PmMb4pJK3349AkwvpImrpTqzAShBRJSriD85ok783wcenC/MmYyKsQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:a7ca:: with SMTP id q193mr46552394wme.150.1563476240224; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rpluim-mac ([2a01:e34:ecfc:a860:654d:cd3a:755a:ad29]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i13sm26413732wrr.73.2019.07.18.11.57.18 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:57:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Pluim To: Robert Alessi Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 20:57:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> (Robert Alessi's message of "Thu, 18 Jul 2019 20:47:00 +0200") Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 20:47:00 +0200, Robert Alessi said: Robert> On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 08:06:13PM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: >> >>>>> On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:32:52 +0200, Robert Alessi said: Robert> Very well spotted. Actually, the latter is the right one=E2=80= =94that is: >> ^^^^^^ Robert> Greek Tonos, U+0384=E2=80=94while the former, Greek Oxia (U+1FF= D) belongs to Robert> the group that was deprecated. So it is the other way round: k= eep the Robert> former, and make the latter go. >> ^^^^^^ >>=20 >> Now I=CA=BCm confused :-) >>=20 >> Currently greek.el input methods insert \u1ffd, rather than >> \u0384. Which one do you want? Robert> That is not entirely true, I daresay, for I did find a couple of Robert> \u0384 in this file. Indeed, some of the methods already had a way to insert tonos. Robert> But I got confused at some point in my previous Robert> email! What I meant is: keep Greek Tonos (\u0384), and replace= Greek Robert> Oxia with Greek Tonos. But those methods that have tonos are for 'modern' greek, whereas the ones that have oxia are for classical greek, as Basil pointed out, so perhaps there=CA=BCs no need to change anything (unless there=CA=BCs an edi= ct from the Unicode people that tonos must be used even when writing classical greek). Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 18:18:17 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 22:18:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54750 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoEjB-00023n-8o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:18:17 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:48566) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoEj8-00023f-RK for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:18:15 -0400 Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DB7A1A11FF; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:23:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: EDF4501EE9584AB4F848A1540F345DEC29AF935A06FC8CEDCAD1DF93F3B0DA57 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 34A1012052C; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 22:23:16 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190718202316.GD4886@robertalessi.net> References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87k1cf2ooo.fsf@tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87k1cf2ooo.fsf@tcd.ie> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 07:16:39PM +0100, Basil L. Contovounesios wrote: > > > > I took a look at greek.el, that shouldn't be difficult. > > Indeed, it's just a simple search+replace: > Yes, but let us hold on until we have something solid to lean on. Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 18:39:19 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 22:39:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54795 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoF3X-0002cH-Kr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:39:19 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f67.google.com ([209.85.221.67]:36730) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoF3V-0002c3-BQ for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:39:17 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f67.google.com with SMTP id n4so30363720wrs.3 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 15:39:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tcd-ie.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5jlYxeCDOa23fkcpw94Rd6322SsBSX9Wiyh0/gUhSyE=; b=t476Zjdstlp1UFAMaTvZ6mgnWF0wtJG52E2sqXcwP6gEwvLCpNO3AgxWOQm67YwjMk p5DMrzz4s+P3Beo0nT7t6s99ZHrmfsoOuMwl7rXQK6jQd93hGOHWfkFzmjb+P3g6u/iw rw7Af8zRgv/2/hZrs+k1P9477pn8s+f8mfoJklYicWUjplGC4DDtaaUAV+dI5IEIh372 apVAqtI5ubKbDQbCsIUBKAosxiE5N2XEdGMbVK3Bi/4hbCpqzTaSQ5z0FWAiLpyisXmb BOEBTx54SFqkZW8+Kz7i7JaJojBsedKMnR49t9iQqkmaKMe3t9H5H9TyNbigYEUkV76Y sSUw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5jlYxeCDOa23fkcpw94Rd6322SsBSX9Wiyh0/gUhSyE=; b=YKLOZG5F4a6cX9+aDnQKfwspc6Bsl7tO8n0zQBHuBJjj8PQan1xReB+P5q3LL/4OKG pVz++nMQj1djIShV/u19bNGsjmcJn8OdNYAlTPQkp6hR0G5GJDlXBfnBJd8pSZqIm49R dDGqXStnGIBiDxkwwyW7a0on38VyCxo1SwrKFlp0KHs4IQGpkxbJekBy9S926MTtmvGW CuCH35LSwLIcl1JbVlinJEYY7hnm2JSbteNTazUqVQbojOMvcCntFzaBmJQo+2XvYnFb d0VmyMbGC4Guy5lFCOTfHn37sc/GRZ1a9KupID1PLYUuJopkYXB7ADlxniqyrb5hNFQl answ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWFt+ULiHCFt0vp3LwC5DNkKlJZMqas3inj/QoP8R0NwHg41s3f uAcJOia/V27669fGquFHzHc6fA93jsk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwuO279RCKyUuInmZt9T+jQNXKUkQPWkO7FhS6lJMdR0GFLPFj8dAI528A1VnhR5XXsw4nNSA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:ea82:: with SMTP id s2mr45912135wrm.91.1563483140990; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2a02:8084:20e2:c380:92bd:1bfd:38fc:fae2]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n14sm47765013wra.75.2019.07.18.13.52.20 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:52:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" To: Robert Alessi Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <87blxr2okn.fsf@tcd.ie> <20190718201948.GC4886@robertalessi.net> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 21:52:19 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20190718201948.GC4886@robertalessi.net> (Robert Alessi's message of "Thu, 18 Jul 2019 22:19:48 +0200") Message-ID: <87ftn312ws.fsf@tcd.ie> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: Robert Pluim , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Robert Alessi writes: > On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 07:19:04PM +0100, Basil L. Contovounesios wrote: >> Robert Alessi writes: >> > Very well spotted. Actually, the latter is the right one=E2=80=94that= is: >> > Greek Tonos, U+0384=E2=80=94while the former, Greek Oxia (U+1FFD) belo= ngs to >> > the group that was deprecated. So it is the other way round: keep the >> > former, and make the latter go. >>=20 >> AFAICT the link you provided does not say anything about oxia the >> standalone character. > > You are perfectly right. If it were up to me I would recommend to > keep all those characters that were considered as duplicates. I quote > here from this page[^1]: > > A false distinction was introduced to Unicode between the oxia > (acute) and tonos, resulting in wrongly duplicated code > points. See Greek Unicode duplicated vowels for a full > discussion. > > So strictly speaking, oxia alone is not yet removed from Unicode. [Are characters ever removed from Unicode?] > But as alpha, epsilon, eta, iota, omicron upsilon omega with oxia were > allegedly deprecated *and removed* from the Greek extended range, I > would say that oxia alone does not have much to live. Without being a Unicode expert, I doubt these vowel compositions or the oxia itself are going anywhere. The only question is whether it is safe and/or encouraged to replace oxia with tonos in all contexts, regardless of whether classical or modern, and how Quail might do this. At least, that's what I'm wondering. > [^1]: https://wiki.digitalclassicist.org/Unicode_for_ancient_languages >>=20 >> I'm still interested in seeing some documentation on this deprecation >> that is not from digitalclassicist.org. > > That, according to digitalclassicist.org, of course. I will try to > see if I find anything of relevance on unicode.org and report back. Thanks for looking into this! --=20 Basil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 18:53:17 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 22:53:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54816 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoFH3-0002zB-Ew for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:53:17 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:56548) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoFH0-0002z1-Tj for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:53:15 -0400 Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95E181A28BB; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:14:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: 537C76813FD9188D3EDAFD5EAEAE2FA20CBDDF60B44C67E7788D268284BD666B Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5392F1207CA; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 22:14:44 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Robert Pluim Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190718201444.GB4886@robertalessi.net> References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 08:57:16PM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: > > But those methods that have tonos are for 'modern' greek, whereas the > ones that have oxia are for classical greek, as Basil pointed out, so > perhaps thereʼs no need to change anything (unless thereʼs an edict > from the Unicode people that tonos must be used even when writing > classical greek). I was about to write that, as a classicist, if it were up to me I wouldn't change anything myself. So I would agree with Basil's argument. However, to take this one example, if one tries to use Alexey Kryukov's beautiful Old Standard font with emacs and XeLaTeX or LuaLaTeX, and activates the `ss06` feature which is supposed to automatically make the distinction between initial and medial beta, he will see that ὁ βάρβαρος typed with emacs succeeds while λάβρος fails, just because of ά with oxia instead of ά with tonos. Yesterday, I tried to get to the bottom of this: I cloned the source files of Old Standard (https://github.com/akryukov/oldstand) and edited the source file of the regular shape with FontForge. I included all of the seven letters with oxia that were missing in the substitution rules and generated a new .otf file, but to no avail. Actually, I discovered that even if one selects those letters, FontForge automatically undoes this selection to select the corresponding letters with tonos! Here is the condition: as far as I can tell, there is no way to get this kind of feature to work using the letters with oxia. I myself consider this preposterous. Then I came across digitalclassicist.org. I modified my own greek.el and got a Greek text perfectly typeset with all the required substitutions. In my opinion, this is a serious problem. I will try to proceed further on this line of inquiry. An interesting question is: why (unless I am mistaken) did FontForge deprecrate oxia in favor of tonos? I am asking just because I am experiencing this regression. That said, I will take some time to go through https://www.unicode.org/versions/ and report back if I find anything of relevance. Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 18:58:16 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 22:58:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54826 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoFLs-000386-HB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:58:16 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:57736) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoFLq-00037y-GV for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:58:15 -0400 Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEBB91A0777; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:19:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: F275E63550399E1BD530A2A45688C0CA29B60D2A3BD0C802BC18D561D50C2FAB Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 555B61207A5; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 22:19:48 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190718201948.GC4886@robertalessi.net> References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <87blxr2okn.fsf@tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87blxr2okn.fsf@tcd.ie> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: Robert Pluim , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 07:19:04PM +0100, Basil L. Contovounesios wrote: > Robert Alessi writes: > > Very well spotted. Actually, the latter is the right one—that is: > > Greek Tonos, U+0384—while the former, Greek Oxia (U+1FFD) belongs to > > the group that was deprecated. So it is the other way round: keep the > > former, and make the latter go. > > AFAICT the link you provided does not say anything about oxia the > standalone character. You are perfectly right. If it were up to me I would recommend to keep all those characters that were considered as duplicates. I quote here from this page[^1]: A false distinction was introduced to Unicode between the oxia (acute) and tonos, resulting in wrongly duplicated code points. See Greek Unicode duplicated vowels for a full discussion. So strictly speaking, oxia alone is not yet removed from Unicode. But as alpha, epsilon, eta, iota, omicron upsilon omega with oxia were allegedly deprecated *and removed* from the Greek extended range, I would say that oxia alone does not have much to live. [^1]: https://wiki.digitalclassicist.org/Unicode_for_ancient_languages > > I'm still interested in seeing some documentation on this deprecation > that is not from digitalclassicist.org. That, according to digitalclassicist.org, of course. I will try to see if I find anything of relevance on unicode.org and report back. Robert > Thanks, > > -- > Basil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 19:03:16 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 23:03:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54832 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoFQi-0003HM-7H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:03:16 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:59032) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoFQg-0003HE-SM for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:03:15 -0400 Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA5761A1EE6; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:27:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: 54B9D562DEB72D19E961DAC82F2270F5243B5679FEC379FE370A29A449449EBA Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7F5781202BF; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 22:27:01 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Robert Pluim Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190718202701.GE4886@robertalessi.net> References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87k1cf2ooo.fsf@tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: "Basil L. Contovounesios" , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 08:47:41PM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: > >>>>> On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:16:39 +0100, "Basil L. Contovounesios" said: > >> What about GREEK OXIA vs GREEK TONOS as standalone characters? Should > >> we replace the former with the latter? > > Basil> I'm not sure; see my other message. AFAIK vowels composed with oxia > Basil> decompose to their tonos counterparts, but not so oxia itself. I'm > Basil> still confused as to what Quail should do with these equivalences. > Basil> Should it always use the simplest possible composition? > > Iʼm not sure either. Neither are combining characters, so I doubt it > matters, but consistency probably calls for tonos rather than oxia > (although we can also arrange for both to be available). Surely, arranging for both to be available would get out of trouble those who, like me, try to get substitution features to work as expected. Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 19:08:19 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 23:08:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54837 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoFVY-0003Rq-Vt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:08:19 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:60416) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoFVW-0003RZ-EE for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:08:14 -0400 Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FFCF1A1995; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:32:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: 6C78596DC1533FD14D6F513F124921195ED0D02234DDEC54F8A9C69136ABE5F6 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D1DE91207A5; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 22:32:03 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Robert Pluim Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 08:57:16PM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: > Indeed, some of the methods already had a way to insert tonos. > > Robert> But I got confused at some point in my previous > Robert> email! What I meant is: keep Greek Tonos (\u0384), and replace Greek > Robert> Oxia with Greek Tonos. > > But those methods that have tonos are for 'modern' greek, whereas the > ones that have oxia are for classical greek, as Basil pointed out, so > perhaps thereʼs no need to change anything (unless thereʼs an edict > from the Unicode people that tonos must be used even when writing > classical greek). Good point. I will try to look for such an edict! Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 18 19:08:19 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jul 2019 23:08:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54839 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoFVb-0003Rw-HL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:08:19 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:60418) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoFVW-0003Ra-Cl for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:08:14 -0400 Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C5CB1A0F20; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:29:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: 8A649CB2CE8E3AD03F9A1C4E90F55A06ECD5484737BE5C88C8F5960D2423DEAF Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ED061222344; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 22:29:35 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190718202935.GF4886@robertalessi.net> References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87lfwv2oot.fsf@tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87lfwv2oot.fsf@tcd.ie> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Thank you for these valuable items of information, Basil. I will do some research and report back no later than tomorrow. Robert On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 07:16:34PM +0100, Basil L. Contovounesios wrote: > Robert Alessi writes: > > > As of 2016, the latest versions of Unicode (as of 2016) have now > > formally deprecated and removed the vowel+oxia combinations from the > > Greek extended range, leaving only the vowel+tonos from the basic Greek > > and Coptic range. > > Where is the deprecation documented? What do you mean by "removed"? > AFAIK all of the "deprecated" codepoints are still part of the latest > Unicode standard[1]. > > > As a result of this deprecation, the sixteen characters found in > > greek.el (Quail package for inputting Greek) that use extended > > codepoints should be replaced with those that use basic codepoints. > > I'm not opposed to such a simple search+replace[2], but I'm no expert on > these matters (so please bear with me), and I wonder what effects, if > any, such a change may have. > > AFAICT all occurrences of the "deprecated" codepoints in greek.el appear > in classical Greek input methods, not the modern Greek input methods > greek or greek-postfix. Would users of the classical input methods ever > want to explicitly use the oxia, not tonos, variants? > > What confuses me is that, AIUI, the "deprecated" codepoints should > decompose to their Greek and Coptic counterparts[3]. How does Quail > interplay with Unicode normalisation? > > [1]: https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1F00.pdf > [2]: Indeed, I've seen people trip over this discrepancy, but I forgot > to follow up on this: https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/43927/15748 > [3]: http://www.unicode.org/charts/normalization/ > > > All affected characters can be found here: --> > > https://wiki.digitalclassicist.org/Greek_Unicode_duplicated_vowels#Affected_characters > > > > Although most Unicode Greek fonts display both versions identically, in > > some cases, not using basic codepoints can break advanced features such > > as alternate forms in Greek script. To take an example, if some feature > > is supposed to distinguish between regular and `curly' *beta* (β/ϐ) so > > as to print the `curly' shape if the *beta* is found in medial position, > > the substitution will succeed in βάρβαρος, but fail in λάβρος just > > because of the extended codepoint of ά that is used by `greek.el`. > > How does the use of oxia instead of tonos on the alpha affect the > substitution of the beta? > > Thanks, > > -- > Basil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 02:57:51 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 06:57:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55023 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoMpz-0000oV-DY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:57:51 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41189) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoMpx-0000oG-Tg for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:57:50 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:40963) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoMps-0007t7-34; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:57:44 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4074 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hoMpq-00030i-SW; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:57:43 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:57:38 +0300 Message-Id: <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Robert Alessi In-reply-to: <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> (message from Robert Alessi on Thu, 18 Jul 2019 22:32:03 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 22:32:03 +0200 > From: Robert Alessi > Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 08:57:16PM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: > > Indeed, some of the methods already had a way to insert tonos. > > > > Robert> But I got confused at some point in my previous > > Robert> email! What I meant is: keep Greek Tonos (\u0384), and replace Greek > > Robert> Oxia with Greek Tonos. > > > > But those methods that have tonos are for 'modern' greek, whereas the > > ones that have oxia are for classical greek, as Basil pointed out, so > > perhaps thereʼs no need to change anything (unless thereʼs an edict > > from the Unicode people that tonos must be used even when writing > > classical greek). > > Good point. I will try to look for such an edict! We could ask on the Unicode mailing list. There are Unicode experts there, and they are quite friendly. If someone can come up with a comprehensive description of our situation and the issues we are trying to resolve, please write to unicode@unicode.org, and ask the questions. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 04:27:48 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 08:27:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55096 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOF2-000554-GT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:27:48 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f50.google.com ([209.85.221.50]:34710) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOF0-00054p-EA for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:27:46 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f50.google.com with SMTP id 31so31405060wrm.1 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:27:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PENezgU380iRA2H69D6nSC89mFGYY6l5aFZXUMJH7X4=; b=KSXACj3bEXHlQ8YV/+tbT6vseL6iMrcchiDKCTao50QMShShjJ1PLJnRN4sgvEyBY7 Qflh0OCwV+fLAbtIx/2tvjyNN5IghlgzVjz86mePVq37LPI+EvNSoGJsxs2knSHvr4tR uBFv8EmaQf8N2n84JGneBDoLIufn6GDO7wxFnBhXuC8z2mrOg5tNA4WiHJ9VMtZWKy+X TtLq4Zh0U1aGQpjnKv1A+V5R1vSbqvDNEkWPdrrPcn/LxxV7IQQJaHQz3BC9nZOVfZ8M pmgXTd7F5xcOTng/RWMKhEdYIcu9GMc0wxPWFNNigt2YN06/X5cBzQQGa7U8U7Hr9ZVG Ql6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PENezgU380iRA2H69D6nSC89mFGYY6l5aFZXUMJH7X4=; b=qh9zP8jVKJewsDVqMK6fWVQvNZuT9fgXYQlsZOaWiJZgBYFKKQYhXAkMtxYEbi/sR3 jNMg+Ai2njKXm/ely8ymfCvul2QCGo6Cb1jWf0y/8Mbu/YWPxdv/amxp9zqK6HmspSIM LmbKEV9ePVTvBJNHSAymqpUwE/+eENqr3euqstbZS3m/h4RCeaZ8zgftlC7VLNKGe5N7 lkkCoJq4kogEkSWxGlO+7sH/kILdyj2egCfOw1lsyDgRFxEtpNU1lRpkOCNbfXrkeX/j 4/qJ4ds0mSnjvqMdlM7s+bFLByu9zKJ8kq8XCGNcr2d6dHzuTlo42VFxfjtuSprQenjW nalQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUtjdSlRZBAYYTv+dUFJ3A0Ue4A4Gj+fe3RxbO98EL2RMhQx0XY gO3yAGSEgC3BxG4DDmjf9cYUEqIx X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyBq43DVM0R1Ll3fkBkCxar3efQf+8L/JsBwFiArsV3EXVskI67q6HU/cb80u12omcpwlRJ0g== X-Received: by 2002:adf:fa42:: with SMTP id y2mr35095587wrr.170.1563524860066; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:27:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rpluim-mac ([149.5.228.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b19sm21989846wmj.13.2019.07.19.01.27.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:27:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Pluim To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:27:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:57:38 +0300") Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org, Robert Alessi X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:57:38 +0300, Eli Zaretskii said: Eli> We could ask on the Unicode mailing list. There are Unicode exper= ts Eli> there, and they are quite friendly. If someone can come up with a Eli> comprehensive description of our situation and the issues we are Eli> trying to resolve, please write to unicode@unicode.org, and ask the Eli> questions. I think reading helps some. My understanding of the situation is that the basic Greek block should be used, rather than the extended Greek block, for the LETTER + OXIA/TONOS combinations (and the extended block versions all decompose to characters in the basic block + a combining mark). To me that implies that the Greek input methods should use GREEK TONOS (\u384) consistently rather then GREEK OXIA (\u1ffd), but I couldn't see any explicit mention of that, and at least in my font they're visually distinct. There=CA=BCs also , but that=CA=BCs much longer, so I only read the bit about oxia vs tonos, and it also has nothing to say on which to use when inserting only the accenting character itself. Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 04:58:31 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 08:58:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55106 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOil-0005os-Hn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:58:31 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:53816) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOij-0005ok-44 for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:58:30 -0400 Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 388B81A29FE; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:58:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: CA94C61AF70F33B71D34D4A6C13D6BEE899CDEF73469B7F6481B34F9E8771284 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C6BAF22312A; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:58:24 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hi Eli, On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 09:57:38AM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > But those methods that have tonos are for 'modern' greek, whereas the > > > ones that have oxia are for classical greek, as Basil pointed out, so > > > perhaps thereʼs no need to change anything (unless thereʼs an edict > > > from the Unicode people that tonos must be used even when writing > > > classical greek). > > > > Good point. I will try to look for such an edict! > > We could ask on the Unicode mailing list. There are Unicode experts > there, and they are quite friendly. If someone can come up with a > comprehensive description of our situation and the issues we are > trying to resolve, please write to unicode@unicode.org, and ask the > questions. As of this writing, I am doing some research on this topic. At least, I went through almost all the documents that are listed here: https://unicode.org/versions/ (in reverse chronological order), and couldn't find any statement of Greek oxia being deprecated in favor of tonos, contrary to what is claimed here: https://wiki.digitalclassicist.org/Greek_Unicode_duplicated_vowels Strictly speaking, tonos is not to be mistaken for oxia: that is for sure, as tonos was introduced as a result of a reform to denote a tone, namely a stress on some vowels, and not a pitch, namely a rising and falling voice on accented vowels. Confusion began in 1986 (from what I learned) when the Greek government decreed that tonos shall be the acute. In addition to this, Unicode initially served both Greek and Coptic on the same block, starting at U+0370. At this time, only monotonic Greek was served. Later, an additional block called Greek Extended was added at U+1F00, let alone further additions being encoded in the Supplementary Multilingual Plane... >From what I could see, many Greek fonts originally reflected the distinction between tonos and oxia. But nowadays, they simply mix them up. This is precisely why I was not able to instruct FontForge to take into account vowels with oxia in some of the substitution rules of Old Standard which is a very fine Greek font (see https://ctan.org/pkg/oldstandard): vowels with oxia were simply missing from the Greek Extended Block, and what I did not see is a rule that instructed to absorb vowels with oxia into vowels with tonos as the glyphs are all strictly the same. One question remains—and I wish to express my gratitude to all of you, Robert, Basil and Eli: since assigning vowels with tonos and vowels with oxia to the same code points is clearly unacceptable even if the glyphs may be identical, is there a way to input tonos and vowels with tonos with emacs? I use greek-ibycus4, but if other input methods can handle these letters, I would consider any change unnecessary. Many thanks again to all of you! Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 05:09:08 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 09:09:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55111 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOt1-00064T-Mq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:09:07 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:57070) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOsz-00064K-EN for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:09:05 -0400 Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C663D1B9321; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:09:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: 51A383547A12948EB88FE0513699CD78E1CC9D9E1ECC58E45C523735D19F9A59 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 62C74223123; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:09:02 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Robert Pluim Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190719090902.GB3263@robertalessi.net> References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 10:27:35AM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: > >>>>> On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:57:38 +0300, Eli Zaretskii said: > > Eli> We could ask on the Unicode mailing list. There are Unicode experts > Eli> there, and they are quite friendly. If someone can come up with a > Eli> comprehensive description of our situation and the issues we are > Eli> trying to resolve, please write to unicode@unicode.org, and ask the > Eli> questions. > > I think reading helps > some. My understanding of the situation is that the basic Greek block > should be used, rather than the extended Greek block, for the LETTER + > OXIA/TONOS combinations (and the extended block versions all decompose > to characters in the basic block + a combining mark). > > To me that implies that the Greek input methods should use GREEK TONOS > (\u384) consistently rather then GREEK OXIA (\u1ffd), but I couldn't > see any explicit mention of that, and at least in my font they're > visually distinct. > > Thereʼs also , but > thatʼs much longer, so I only read the bit about oxia vs tonos, and it > also has nothing to say on which to use when inserting only the > accenting character itself. It is quite an intricate business! I have read this page yesterday and also went through some of the references that are given. What is very confusing in my opinion is that since the Greek government allegedly decreed to mix up tonos and oxia, in a way, just because tonos (as distinct from oxia) was the result of an earlier reform, this may be interpreted as a deprecation of tonos and simple vowels with tonos, and not the other way round... Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 05:27:06 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 09:27:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55120 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPAQ-0006Td-Kl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:27:06 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f50.google.com ([209.85.221.50]:46714) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPAP-0006T9-8A for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:27:05 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f50.google.com with SMTP id z1so31513941wru.13 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:27:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:mail-copies-to:gmane-reply-to-list :date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HHx1xv496J1xjFQwlnTzvvdiTXFC3I3XUbYKYF/WhTU=; b=qQ3qrVgTeet6DEV0G3SA36O/Hh5HVZGs5cImJcm6/VBCawO3VaAYSmW5G72YQWVf58 5BKZvx1h9TyXpjuvQcI1SiDlKaBppoliFjklBYH3mjRlOQQDIAuDHywmTVgsS/8YVtRc 32IZ97JNJXmGEcLe0BjQa65Tbvmf1cZGH7tgJl/AdIG0eBO4nkTPEVSkV+QvB3+AehLC V6xylsk+9fGZC0wYKxHnqqFxc65TfMmLpFj5ptDz2r2oVLmE/emgdKc7NY2Uhab0g/JX yzBURjqSjpKQwWRrYjn99y8PTA0zslenTk1MRqaxK8dDDU2Z1gbyj+/qlt3Zvl/ZY4nx xWQw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:mail-copies-to :gmane-reply-to-list:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=HHx1xv496J1xjFQwlnTzvvdiTXFC3I3XUbYKYF/WhTU=; b=kAst0V7JnBk39C5LSunag0HO5NuTA+Kz35O4emfqKYWX4eWp8W0J+lv1swnChob7oA eRbXJ2RUBCPiTJNkbm1/wjrczoP1wsKy9wKMfe/tUItzbypWpJtNZ7SUHf6zTfuhQ77z AQskxbdfZuLxhBU1Sxzlxnrugb2yAyDssnKyrxv3h9t/DsGvFWCtbM19oBm7/sCRJF+j XBMPjsTDFtZVc58FBsifQcJtSNOTw5UiUu9kaaIKNPthhF4Uk4Q2AqEuEIE9EqmFopPh LMw2gSKPvj3+IplTcffVsibMq/9I+7CQObx9Rw0hWPQthx+/6QN8Yd5GLl5hy0uLGw34 dn/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVaxP0X0duXwX3fh0ytz2h7sL80ONoHcWPyk9HTkJNAcqUTtX1o lFRPxwRWQd7IpX+yo09ph5LSqv42VKI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxAzihrQNK5/xyiv64Ch3szWGrsVZHrtv45jsPjUvwVDXSZO6kWQaAZ8fu6ko7qkNkAKZY7uw== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:65c5:: with SMTP id e5mr5349009wrw.266.1563528418988; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rpluim-mac ([149.5.228.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 2sm36549030wrn.29.2019.07.19.02.26.57 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:26:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Pluim To: Robert Alessi Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Gmane-Reply-To-List: yes Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:26:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> (Robert Alessi's message of "Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:58:24 +0200") Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:58:24 +0200, Robert Alessi said: Robert> Robert, Basil and Eli: since assigning vowels with tonos and vo= wels Robert> with oxia to the same code points is clearly unacceptable even = if the Robert> glyphs may be identical, is there a way to input tonos and vowe= ls with Robert> tonos with emacs? I use greek-ibycus4, but if other input meth= ods Robert> can handle these letters, I would consider any change unnecessa= ry. 1. You can locally derive an input method from greek-ibycus4, and replace the entries for letter + oxia with letter with tonos (or we can make that change in emacs) 2. Same, but we allow for entering both variants, so that eg i' =3D> iota with oxia i; =3D> iota with tonos (this is how eg greek-postfix does it) 3. You change input methods betweend greek-ibycus4 and greek postfix, enter the character + tonos using i;, then switch back 4. Last resort: enter the required character directly using C-x 8 RET 3af or C-x 8 RET GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA WITH TONOS I=CA=BCd probably lean towards [2], but a purist might says that we=CA=BCre polluting an input method intended for classical greek with a 'modern' set of characters. OTOH Unicode seems to say that we should be using the tonos variants anyway. Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 05:34:07 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 09:34:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55124 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPHD-0006hW-Ex for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:34:07 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:55571) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPHB-0006gx-EB for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:34:06 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45536) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPH5-0002Vj-HV; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:33:59 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2024 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPH4-0001kD-Mf; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:33:59 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 12:33:52 +0300 Message-Id: <83lfwuv05b.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Robert Alessi In-reply-to: <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> (message from Robert Alessi on Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:58:24 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:58:24 +0200 > From: Robert Alessi > Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org > > I went through almost all the documents that are listed here: > https://unicode.org/versions/ (in reverse chronological order), and > couldn't find any statement of Greek oxia being deprecated in favor of > tonos, contrary to what is claimed here: > https://wiki.digitalclassicist.org/Greek_Unicode_duplicated_vowels So the basic claim that started this issue is no longer valid? IOW, this assertion: As of 2016, the latest versions of Unicode (as of 2016) have now formally deprecated and removed the vowel+oxia combinations from the Greek extended range, leaving only the vowel+tonos from the basic Greek and Coptic range. is not really accurate? > One question remains—and I wish to express my gratitude to all of you, > Robert, Basil and Eli: since assigning vowels with tonos and vowels > with oxia to the same code points is clearly unacceptable even if the > glyphs may be identical, is there a way to input tonos and vowels with > tonos with emacs? I use greek-ibycus4, but if other input methods > can handle these letters, I would consider any change unnecessary. "C-x RET 8" would be the immediate answer, IIUC. But I'm still studying the issue, so maybe I'm missing something. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 05:41:12 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 09:41:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55128 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPO2-0006ro-G1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:41:11 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f54.google.com ([209.85.221.54]:44697) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPO0-0006rZ-NT for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:41:09 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f54.google.com with SMTP id p17so31554321wrf.11 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:41:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:mail-copies-to:gmane-reply-to-list :date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=81fzqjA1grJ6Esz8q0LJ6rNFwld7KvkqXeSUGHBzuTQ=; b=pIa1WDEmrDlp2xO/DnewAx18C7/SxMPM2zt4loxKkD7DwZ1W9VgbpMjoPKLaVsMBsx oIHumacuGoFNYl4hHxVlzM/3XghaCmQNds7LGC3KipRIe/U4BlBJw5naykgCoZo/5OQ+ k0Pafxqw7mAwmVElCMs/4zrHW+BR2ZyPPy5WxHFNpjRxdRUbWD8bkqonBNdYtF4MGc0U 9HLcQAH9O3HlLsyrgpF788Ny22G1R9Llhsyk1UJewNaYGCcr6wUnPRq56IlqMTzcJ/Tc DMY4YbgE1JdPVFWo5YXHfu+Hju8dDRrLdfWEOxZ5HN3HtZ+M7rOy7bioPU3Y1YIriPjS hm8Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:mail-copies-to :gmane-reply-to-list:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=81fzqjA1grJ6Esz8q0LJ6rNFwld7KvkqXeSUGHBzuTQ=; b=rraNTi7BGEncGsitjdyVxCeM1QgOAl9xTNhZTc3dQyCHwyvkEu5HknIBu9aoQ1GO0O 74NlRWDEepS/KbyK8vA+dknpWbX1fQIFirZsNlby9pSRB4QXPniwPz2zPS7nYrYlLunH DSLntQ4tUZQ14ywcK+nMphYf+djiEorsF+Z9g9dDj2jxAMWyUiWVjk973c3tJxJHV4jx w5UjXOlU3USuZSaN8I+rRgq0YrEKrR/7P9dToEic3wqnnm8eK7A3qORO40RUkilKk6FY xaNbaGrJRs5N+EjGV1vLQOM1voiMTaqEmcyQ33O/6KMgLiIXiWim1tJoEwC5VJtXOMat QVKQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUKb/UQnVePHEuS+m11LxyuBEYxQEvuUH80ZIPeHh8ycvYmuER/ mDUL8SCXV37SkpWR4AzIccQ7r+18KZQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwI50uDAdsXBvtyWL9T27PVIFnAvZSXVYKlelNSDSM9wcAFgwWWtxLmMP8X9THh0VXXCLDDoQ== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6284:: with SMTP id k4mr21239806wru.179.1563529262254; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rpluim-mac ([149.5.228.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o26sm48573280wro.53.2019.07.19.02.40.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:40:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Pluim To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87k1cf2ooo.fsf@tcd.ie> X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Gmane-Reply-To-List: yes Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:40:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87k1cf2ooo.fsf@tcd.ie> (Basil L. Contovounesios's message of "Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:16:39 +0100") Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org, Robert Alessi X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:16:39 +0100, "Basil L. Contovounesios" said: Basil> diff --git a/lisp/leim/quail/rfc1345.el b/lisp/leim/quail/rfc1345.el Note that rfc1345.el has entries for both vowel + oxia and vowel + tonos variants, so we should probably not change it. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 05:42:32 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 09:42:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55132 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPPL-0006tr-Rr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:42:32 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:37642) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPPK-0006ti-26 for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:42:30 -0400 Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BFE21A2C54; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:42:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: 7E00A5FB34E1A0427E1C15AAC9B0C9B1D1DC733DFAC0C907D559D989786FCB37 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DCA8D2233FE; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:42:26 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Robert Pluim Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:26:57AM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: > >>>>> On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:58:24 +0200, Robert Alessi said: > > Robert> Robert, Basil and Eli: since assigning vowels with tonos and vowels > Robert> with oxia to the same code points is clearly unacceptable even if the > Robert> glyphs may be identical, is there a way to input tonos and vowels with > Robert> tonos with emacs? I use greek-ibycus4, but if other input methods > Robert> can handle these letters, I would consider any change unnecessary. > > 1. You can locally derive an input method from greek-ibycus4, and > replace the entries for letter + oxia with letter with tonos (or we > can make that change in emacs) This is what I did in the first place. More precisely, I replaced greek.el with a new greek.el which included the substitutions, but I reverted to the original greek.el after realizing that the statements of digitalclassicist.org are in fact questionable. > 2. Same, but we allow for entering both variants, so that eg > > i' => iota with oxia > i; => iota with tonos (this is how eg greek-postfix does it) Interesting option. > 3. You change input methods betweend greek-ibycus4 and greek postfix, > enter the character + tonos using i;, then switch back This is what I would prefer (see below). > 4. Last resort: enter the required character directly using > > C-x 8 RET 3af > or > C-x 8 RET GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA WITH TONOS Provided one has not many characters to enter! > Iʼd probably lean towards [2], but a purist might says that weʼre > polluting an input method intended for classical greek with a 'modern' > set of characters. Yes [2] would be interesting, I agree, but the purist also has a point. > OTOH Unicode seems to say that we should be using > the tonos variants anyway. Is that to say that the oxia variants are actually not recommended by Unicode? Did you find information on this form unicode.org? Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 05:49:57 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 09:49:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55136 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPWW-00075O-Nx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:49:56 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f48.google.com ([209.85.221.48]:46689) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPWV-00075A-Ij for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:49:56 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f48.google.com with SMTP id z1so31586616wru.13 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:49:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Cl0da6dubqaRhOXdE62dyZxPUFEGal56taMPPzXtkO8=; b=uhdQrFFaimFcf55MDV5nKY1/T6AGaR7aqXOyHF/rLkNLDIi9aFGHhcYUt6MJeEP/Jh l8neSz4yGhLmY5zxjBVtdjq/aQyFOh5sI1QI1mryjqCsKnMIP1g2zzuSnaohvz2VbJ25 utTHCYIrehMN69RWYJgJp+DYF+R7hZRZ2vUi4AtDKm1hXENktAb5sv+Zbs+NRGm5mq0t UPaeTZNnvqGmbgSJLzgYHwveGHl6kNXIcV+mJiKxnuNUMo+FHbyc/xJzNsCMmFJ7+4Wf VcN4BUHVdf92l6iB95c+XK/usdmtNe8s66xTZHwcRm1x0snAPyirdXqxk9XkCFxZOedc Hfag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Cl0da6dubqaRhOXdE62dyZxPUFEGal56taMPPzXtkO8=; b=TeoUFDZDg3Fx6lvboENzan2aQ7kYYw+ES8ry+gkmNJ0z3x2+IrWlyzsntVwbArCJgY 2bTlJatiS7jf8lXJpEDcm4Iyr3yok3Nrv6qDOAiOPzppw92z4cugUQadRUROS2gslc/+ XkvGlLlqoMShzd8PCyfgaKB1fXVx46YidRKkAlnpqXbRyd5j+YMtUkpEHk9+heVVsII3 OgLvVBkrX2n/dLxFknO1BRPSw7U9ajOOC0ilj0sVP7qan/KBjWGIGSg6a3uAblkCplRI XKvKeYgHLyxnS1Z2gqr4Hk5lnxl+47exWtHWS2QVGkuUsrM+PF5KCH1klUntBHbbMlZW U1PA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXNqzuyjY0IcDGvjZLekUo0YQJuhh7z58YptMv8xr6cKPI3+d5S 1jEb03FiFL7Zi9LhJckKz9GW42tuc3w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxp6TkJVt+KnqnaNLBjr3/6CTl++mlhMu12XeK790WaiyJP5o22GsEunqSuUq5M2q0mJkPkqg== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6389:: with SMTP id p9mr26667445wru.297.1563529789218; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rpluim-mac ([149.5.228.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c3sm34348852wrx.19.2019.07.19.02.49.48 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:49:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Pluim To: Robert Alessi Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:49:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> (Robert Alessi's message of "Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:42:26 +0200") Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:42:26 +0200, Robert Alessi said: >> I=CA=BCd probably lean towards [2], but a purist might says that we= =CA=BCre >> polluting an input method intended for classical greek with a 'moder= n' >> set of characters. Robert> Yes [2] would be interesting, I agree, but the purist also has = a point. The purist can never prevent you from modifying your local copy of greek.el :-) >> OTOH Unicode seems to say that we should be using >> the tonos variants anyway. Robert> Is that to say that the oxia variants are actually not recommen= ded by Robert> Unicode? Did you find information on this form unicode.org? says: Q: Which block of Greek characters should I use? A: The answer to that is that it depends what you are doing. But generally, the basic Greek block plus the use of the generic combining marks in the Combining Diacritical Marks block (U+0300..U+036F) is the best approach to polytonic Greek support. Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 05:54:13 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 09:54:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55140 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPae-0007Bt-Ai for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:54:13 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:41196) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPac-0007Bl-Nq for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:54:11 -0400 Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D55021A2C54; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:54:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: DCF33E1697EB890D17D070464D2F1F6EC7C98C8A8E4108334663AA5DCA661B5E Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 80B6F22347D; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 02:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:54:07 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190719095407.GB5734@robertalessi.net> References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <83lfwuv05b.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <83lfwuv05b.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 12:33:52PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > I went through almost all the documents that are listed here: > > https://unicode.org/versions/ (in reverse chronological order), and > > couldn't find any statement of Greek oxia being deprecated in favor of > > tonos, contrary to what is claimed here: > > https://wiki.digitalclassicist.org/Greek_Unicode_duplicated_vowels > > So the basic claim that started this issue is no longer valid? IOW, > this assertion: > > As of 2016, the latest versions of Unicode (as of 2016) have now > formally deprecated and removed the vowel+oxia combinations from the > Greek extended range, leaving only the vowel+tonos from the basic Greek > and Coptic range. > > is not really accurate? I would say so, to say the least, but I am still investigating. What is sure is that tonos originally does not encode the same as oxia. The former encodes a stress, while the latter encodes a pitch. This is undisputable. That said, the fact that the Greek government did decree that tonos shall be the same as oxia (to be taken cautiously, I am not a specialist of modern Greek) surely introduced a lot of confusion. For example, if one makes no distinction between the two, then it becomes harder to analyse large corpuses with a computer. > > One question remains—and I wish to express my gratitude to all of you, > > Robert, Basil and Eli: since assigning vowels with tonos and vowels > > with oxia to the same code points is clearly unacceptable even if the > > glyphs may be identical, is there a way to input tonos and vowels with > > tonos with emacs? I use greek-ibycus4, but if other input methods > > can handle these letters, I would consider any change unnecessary. > > "C-x RET 8" would be the immediate answer, IIUC. Well that is not very friendly... > But I'm still studying the issue, so maybe I'm missing something. Just the same on my side. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 06:03:09 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 10:03:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55156 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPjJ-0007Ro-Jr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:03:09 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:43970) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoPjH-0007Rd-Bw for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:03:07 -0400 Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A68441B940E; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 03:03:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: 2E5085C4A8E664911FD214151DE17157B726FD0977D6742C598BF18008B0AA6B Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4AD3C222689; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 03:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 12:03:04 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Robert Pluim Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190719100304.GC5734@robertalessi.net> References: <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:49:47AM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: > Robert> Yes [2] would be interesting, I agree, but the purist also has a point. > > The purist can never prevent you from modifying your local copy of > greek.el :-) He surely can't! I have one question: do I have to modify the greek.el that is in /usr/share/emacs/xx.y/lisp/leim/quail or is there some place were to copy it under my own ~/.emacs.d? > Robert> Is that to say that the oxia variants are actually not recommended by > Robert> Unicode? Did you find information on this form unicode.org? > > says: > > Q: Which block of Greek characters should I use? > > A: The answer to that is that it depends what you are doing. But > generally, the basic Greek block plus the use of the generic combining > marks in the Combining Diacritical Marks block (U+0300..U+036F) is the > best approach to polytonic Greek support. Thank you. So I was not totally wrong in the first place. This statement also makes clear that what is said on digitalclassicist.org needs to be qualified. Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 07:49:11 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 11:49:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55249 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoRNv-0003yU-KN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:49:11 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f54.google.com ([209.85.128.54]:52958) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoRNt-0003yG-Mw for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:49:10 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f54.google.com with SMTP id s3so28511690wms.2 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:49:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:mail-copies-to:gmane-reply-to-list :date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WuGXsjo91/x4o4+kpOE9ESCeveqOKSczn9pfiwsno8I=; b=bMFApIf9Z4bzSjrCKuTXMN0bGZgiylicMNDUrEFzId0B6i4dFMTbn0oC7rJjD3sKgz AfwlcUuQPACSiw21ls1md2IzQUin3o+F3bKUCVOEx2h+nSefSXxMQJzFl3SpH4jfteKx hy21hznnh1BOjJoq7Jx2jI7kcoAu0SZlGsddpTcX+FWZCXMpH7wZoDCFrMnsRQEeRR3u ssoc4jaeTfs+1FluKXnHkUnacxYJLkeQEpk5ojNdk5P+osQLcr6MnP+5Iom8g5aQGFWm mF45IDqVy2gygsTW5JsVVV/WKekxwCXcSkQ/tfLIICQAyzArVt9rapzXZo8MCpRiuSFh QUrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:mail-copies-to :gmane-reply-to-list:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WuGXsjo91/x4o4+kpOE9ESCeveqOKSczn9pfiwsno8I=; b=qIsQFskV84RMk5aZE7bGHVfrpch3TptoD58Pa/XJlH202u4detoeePe4W7lYbIMAbG asYsVvjBDsnX7JczXxeeGHHfEA54WLSb8Usj8b9H6A4TMcvUk3l9MgsGZv9HFJ1Xqo+k wyawFXwABjR9km+8cjeP6oRmGx5cOIVd2bjuizlBaRWosBiIv7nTYGBTSeXRigEzrQPL DJiBrvSPkemup/IgqDxhFD0gM9oRVZPjQxVVnYOXN4ews00dsT+Zu77elWUhCrPVeI13 92GKkYVibLU5tRxDtQk07tBu+GzQZHxBFDHEWUIF9T9o4dlHZlNsTICZ5oaspYZmjo9o hD/g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV1D12AXLeezpHvk0vwQzlCswaUST+J4e+DIS61Pd/EJBKySbEa IAO2bLbhKahQ42rPjXMldeE3l2z0 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyshdASOaJnUwnk3y4fHamcf4/IINnCJhFAIExqz8+0NwLl5Z6kCIP6MNWI/sUnK37Wv1r3cQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:6c08:: with SMTP id h8mr49614059wmc.62.1563536943192; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rpluim-mac ([149.5.228.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 18sm29225775wmg.43.2019.07.19.04.49.00 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:49:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Pluim To: Robert Alessi Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> <20190719100304.GC5734@robertalessi.net> X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Gmane-Reply-To-List: yes Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 13:49:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20190719100304.GC5734@robertalessi.net> (Robert Alessi's message of "Fri, 19 Jul 2019 12:03:04 +0200") Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 12:03:04 +0200, Robert Alessi said: Robert> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:49:47AM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: Robert> Yes [2] would be interesting, I agree, but the purist also has = a point. >>=20 >> The purist can never prevent you from modifying your local copy of >> greek.el :-) Robert> He surely can't! I have one question: do I have to modify the Robert> greek.el that is in /usr/share/emacs/xx.y/lisp/leim/quail or is= there Robert> some place were to copy it under my own ~/.emacs.d? I=CA=BCd copy the relevant code into my .emacs (and perhaps even change the name of the input method), just to be sure there=CA=BCs no conflict or accidental loading of the wrong file. Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 08:40:52 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 12:40:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55326 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSBv-0007lT-Sh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:40:52 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39726) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSBu-0007lG-6T for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:40:50 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:57820) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSBn-0007YE-OK; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:40:43 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1442 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSBn-00011p-6u; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:40:43 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:40:36 +0300 Message-Id: <83imryuri3.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" In-reply-to: <87lfwv2oot.fsf@tcd.ie> (contovob@tcd.ie) Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <87lfwv2oot.fsf@tcd.ie> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org, alessi@robertalessi.net X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" > Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 19:16:34 +0100 > Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org > > What confuses me is that, AIUI, the "deprecated" codepoints should > decompose to their Greek and Coptic counterparts[3]. How does Quail > interplay with Unicode normalisation? It doesn't. Unicode normalization is implemented in core Emacs, and it follows the Unicode rules on the one hand and the "decomposition" property we read from UnicodeData.txt OTOH. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 08:49:45 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 12:49:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55334 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSKX-0007yU-1W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:49:45 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42155) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSKU-0007yG-G6 for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:49:43 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:57943) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSKO-0005v2-TW; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:49:36 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1988 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSKO-0001cl-E8; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:49:36 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:49:31 +0300 Message-Id: <83h87iur38.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Robert Pluim In-reply-to: (message from Robert Pluim on Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:27:35 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org, alessi@robertalessi.net X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Robert Pluim > Cc: Robert Alessi , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:27:35 +0200 > > >>>>> On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:57:38 +0300, Eli Zaretskii said: > > Eli> We could ask on the Unicode mailing list. There are Unicode experts > Eli> there, and they are quite friendly. If someone can come up with a > Eli> comprehensive description of our situation and the issues we are > Eli> trying to resolve, please write to unicode@unicode.org, and ask the > Eli> questions. > > I think reading helps > some. It didn't help me, FWIW. > My understanding of the situation is that the basic Greek block > should be used, rather than the extended Greek block, for the LETTER + > OXIA/TONOS combinations (and the extended block versions all decompose > to characters in the basic block + a combining mark). That's unrelated to the issue at hand, AFAIU. It is relevant to how you set up your fonts, but not how our input methods should work. The point there is that by using the Greek Extended block, you request the precomposed glyphs from the font, which may or may not be according to what you want; whereas by using base characters followed by combining marks you leave it to the rendering system to select the glyph. But we should always keep in mind that the shaping engine we use can (and usually does) decide to use a precomposed glyph even when we type the character in its decomposed form. So this is not really relevant to our issue here. > To me that implies that the Greek input methods should use GREEK TONOS > (\u384) consistently rather then GREEK OXIA (\u1ffd), but I couldn't > see any explicit mention of that, and at least in my font they're > visually distinct. I don't actually understand this assertion, because we currently provide both forms. So I fail to see a problem in our input methods. What did I miss? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 08:52:55 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 12:52:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55342 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSNb-00083l-60 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:52:55 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42963) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSNZ-00083Z-Ac for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:52:54 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:57995) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSNT-00015r-QD; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:52:47 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2181 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSNT-0001s9-6K; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:52:47 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:52:43 +0300 Message-Id: <83ftn2uqxw.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Robert Alessi In-reply-to: <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> (message from Robert Alessi on Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:42:26 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:42:26 +0200 > From: Robert Alessi > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org > > > OTOH Unicode seems to say that we should be using > > the tonos variants anyway. > > Is that to say that the oxia variants are actually not recommended by > Unicode? I don't think this matters for the issue at hand. What variant is to be used is entirely up to the user. We should only be sure to allow users to produce both variants. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 08:54:39 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 12:54:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55346 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSPH-00086T-JB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:54:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43269) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSPF-00086F-Ai for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:54:37 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:58014) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSP9-0002cS-IG; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:54:31 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2286 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSP9-0001yB-2B; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:54:31 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:54:27 +0300 Message-Id: <83ef2muqv0.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Robert Pluim In-reply-to: (message from Robert Pluim on Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:49:47 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org, alessi@robertalessi.net X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Robert Pluim > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:49:47 +0200 > > says: > > Q: Which block of Greek characters should I use? > > A: The answer to that is that it depends what you are doing. But > generally, the basic Greek block plus the use of the generic combining > marks in the Combining Diacritical Marks block (U+0300..U+036F) is the > best approach to polytonic Greek support. To me, the most important part of this is in the very first sentence. It is not our business to second-guess "what the user is doing". We should just make sure they can produce both variants of the characters involved, and let the user decide what they want/need. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 08:56:05 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 12:56:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55350 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSQe-00088b-Va for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:56:05 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43605) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSQc-00088F-Or for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:56:03 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:58033) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSQX-0003V9-5Q; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:55:57 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2372 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSQV-0002GC-Rq; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:55:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:55:51 +0300 Message-Id: <83d0i6uqso.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Robert Alessi In-reply-to: <20190719095407.GB5734@robertalessi.net> (message from Robert Alessi on Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:54:07 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <83lfwuv05b.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719095407.GB5734@robertalessi.net> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:54:07 +0200 > From: Robert Alessi > Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org > > > As of 2016, the latest versions of Unicode (as of 2016) have now > > formally deprecated and removed the vowel+oxia combinations from the > > Greek extended range, leaving only the vowel+tonos from the basic Greek > > and Coptic range. > > > > is not really accurate? > > I would say so, to say the least, but I am still investigating. What > is sure is that tonos originally does not encode the same as oxia. > The former encodes a stress, while the latter encodes a pitch. This > is undisputable. That said, the fact that the Greek government did > decree that tonos shall be the same as oxia (to be taken cautiously, I > am not a specialist of modern Greek) surely introduced a lot of > confusion. > > For example, if one makes no distinction between the two, then it > becomes harder to analyse large corpuses with a computer. What do you mean by "makes no distinction"? Those are different codepoints, regardless of how they look on display. So we definitely _can_ distinguish between them. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 09:00:46 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 13:00:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55358 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSVB-0008Gs-Vx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:00:46 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:45034) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSVA-0008Gc-Ff for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:00:45 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:58132) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSV4-0006ws-S5; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:00:38 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2664 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSV4-0001xs-AX; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:00:38 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:00:33 +0300 Message-Id: <83blxquqku.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: alessi@robertalessi.net In-reply-to: <83ef2muqv0.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:54:27 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> <83ef2muqv0.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Bottom line, after reading this thread and related material on the net, I must say I don't understand what might be wrong with our current Greek input methods. It sounds like we allow users to type both characters with tonos and with oxia, and leave it to them to decide which one(s) they need. I see nothing wrong with that, because only the user can know what they need. Can someone please point out what am I missing? Preferably with concrete examples of characters and input methods used to type them. TIA From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 09:27:56 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 13:27:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55389 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSvT-0000Sr-Ny for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:27:56 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f51.google.com ([209.85.128.51]:40099) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSvR-0000SZ-8w for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:27:53 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f51.google.com with SMTP id v19so29055901wmj.5 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:27:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:mail-copies-to:gmane-reply-to-list :date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Fv+C5US+Xm3s/htiQqRpJ5vtD7LN+yO5Gz0NGUTEPrM=; b=VeRcIsZ4LtwEfLJkp6xefkvSjebU1DN3nGF0WJJRV/6uk2bKtaC1GWBwhdGkY5lrdf P1iuGDDAhWeg4+tqzSxNirNQa5lRn1LYqXvJbgAIKsy2o/rUKTGh0mpGYVNNTFHPH+6K hgSDBOqjiVpQyvsOsbnsqgMjTCN+NWM9KOMiEWeeZyO5Ibu/3TFRJMrZ0+x+jH8zncEj pcqbwK4SPMadFgAGNd5OH6AKmxQYbFRO+rHrPHF3/hupKpDJ2teZFbeVJzJQncA3bo8j ImcfyaeCja7mJGkANyinQNHJky1NUoxsrkXR/RW5OGRhZ63AunqNMtpkC8MLA0tvIZ0g lNGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:mail-copies-to :gmane-reply-to-list:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Fv+C5US+Xm3s/htiQqRpJ5vtD7LN+yO5Gz0NGUTEPrM=; b=FoBVT2R3xcBuvsonb4/g1E+CpB6JKrDTk3ro2wxlMfG8MknLFJv6n3Wy4W+3/ymgDu ZLUYYyilnFBNZ/+cZqoG8XmDuc1W6qUY7l0947rWZiQgo0W2TLfCMu3tAQ7B9vkVK9ja XVTr2ORskYg87XW1cCm139BQ/S0FzltUUDo3u+1M/OSIYT0oGKSVGq/srS4hEu7vtxq4 ezhAAkVNoRSy8GEDNNaxPmdSdsoN7iT5Ef7Ek4gQIJa2mnfhE3MTpla9/loV6GLl76Vc kEUZyIAFeOuBOnGNpGxUZstTu7bW3yebH65f3hZ1UuXNqNV6lXC/b7w41sik2MisiTV3 iORw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUe5MmyyXFnnCrYfOxARZqFF22shallr9VNM8VhHzztiBjerVfa tnW6v6Am5f8Bnxh/yiqCcFU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwy9/RUUNMTkfSTS2X5fh+cXFyAHVkgKcGpb4bYjDVvXCXGnspBgFbakb0RMCEfdly1NAJDMA== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:dc46:: with SMTP id t67mr44793786wmg.159.1563542867271; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rpluim-mac ([149.5.228.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y24sm22177177wmi.10.2019.07.19.06.27.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:27:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Pluim To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <83h87iur38.fsf@gnu.org> X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Gmane-Reply-To-List: yes Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:27:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83h87iur38.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:49:31 +0300") Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org, alessi@robertalessi.net X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:49:31 +0300, Eli Zaretskii said: >> From: Robert Pluim >> Cc: Robert Alessi , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:27:35 +0200 >>=20 >> >>>>> On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:57:38 +0300, Eli Zaretskii said: >>=20 Eli> We could ask on the Unicode mailing list. There are Unicode exper= ts Eli> there, and they are quite friendly. If someone can come up with a Eli> comprehensive description of our situation and the issues we are Eli> trying to resolve, please write to unicode@unicode.org, and ask the Eli> questions. >>=20 >> I think reading helps >> some. Eli> It didn't help me, FWIW. >> My understanding of the situation is that the basic Greek block >> should be used, rather than the extended Greek block, for the LETTER= + >> OXIA/TONOS combinations (and the extended block versions all decompo= se >> to characters in the basic block + a combining mark). I=CA=BCm wrong about that bit in the parentheses, at least within Emacs. I should have said "decompose to characters in the basic block, which in turn decompose to a base character + a combining mark", ie GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA WITH OXIA has decomposition GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA WITH TONOS which has decomposition GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA + COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT Eli> That's unrelated to the issue at hand, AFAIU. It is relevant to h= ow Eli> you set up your fonts, but not how our input methods should work. = The Eli> point there is that by using the Greek Extended block, you request= the Eli> precomposed glyphs from the font, which may or may not be accordin= g to Eli> what you want; whereas by using base characters followed by combin= ing Eli> marks you leave it to the rendering system to select the glyph. B= ut Eli> we should always keep in mind that the shaping engine we use can (= and Eli> usually does) decide to use a precomposed glyph even when we type = the Eli> character in its decomposed form. So this is not really relevant = to Eli> our issue here. Now you've confused me (or I=CA=BCve been unclear). The relevant characters in the Greek basic block do not result in glyph composition: C-u C-x =3D on =CE=AF =3D> position: 2893 of 3607 (80%), restriction: <411-3608>, column:= 13 character: =CE=AF (displayed as =CE=AF) (codepoint 943, #o1657,= #x3af) charset: unicode (Unicode (ISO10646)) code point in charset: 0x03AF script: greek syntax: w which means: word category: .:Base, L:Left-to-right (strong), g:Greek, j:Japanese to input: type "C-x 8 RET 3af" or "C-x 8 RET GREEK SMALL LETTE= R IOTA WITH TONOS" buffer code: #xCE #xAF file code: #xCE #xAF (encoded by coding system utf-8-emacs) display: by this font (glyph code) mac-ct:-*-Hack-normal-normal-normal-*-14-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x5DB) Character code properties: customize what to show name: GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA WITH TONOS old-name: GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA TONOS general-category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) decomposition: (953 769) ('=CE=B9' '=CC=81') >> To me that implies that the Greek input methods should use GREEK TON= OS >> (\u384) consistently rather then GREEK OXIA (\u1ffd), but I couldn't >> see any explicit mention of that, and at least in my font they're >> visually distinct. Eli> I don't actually understand this assertion, because we currently Eli> provide both forms. So I fail to see a problem in our input metho= ds. Eli> What did I miss? We don=CA=BCt provide both forms within the same input method. The question is whether we should provide both, or provide only tonos, since letter + oxia were allegedly added by mistake, hence standalone oxia should not be produced. Or we could change nothing. Perhaps we should ask the unicode people :-) Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 09:30:02 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 13:30:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55397 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSxV-0000WV-QJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:30:02 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f46.google.com ([209.85.221.46]:45589) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSxU-0000W3-9f for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:30:00 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f46.google.com with SMTP id f9so32250346wre.12 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:30:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:mail-copies-to:gmane-reply-to-list :date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=gAdHHcKXv0iZ2zq60x9g8Mg94EhWpp+LMFWogCTn8KM=; b=KIwiOQE6XNOlfjNHphDayD+sjDxiUg0vcsCt+sYO/otoROnfP41aFPIrpEBuYMWxhf wSoCVKyKnYrV5kYr7ISEJ5VqF9Itbv9zMAa9vMAPLOE8i08R676UI47KNr9ZkDOrH6WK WtYmHU6eByOtd9bmuKEhdFUDcJz1wrdBq6CEZemWcXB6Mrvfwn4WDVwpEmVMkKwwAL8k gM1v6Uuh17iGNVVtROH+47eqU7woWB7fJvVSHPueOgEIe4+w+3iU5GnW/ZYHqfYXLtaV 9KtOgLBaQUPDtd+q/JQ5kme3fy3Igtw+pmPh6iFLTx/dOUJT4USaitkY7wiF+qgM1xDE nYiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:mail-copies-to :gmane-reply-to-list:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=gAdHHcKXv0iZ2zq60x9g8Mg94EhWpp+LMFWogCTn8KM=; b=UkjhtogY0iMbMl79OZDCW0iTxvezQxTk1lOLAkuyPSobAAzKQ6p8CbPlWh/dwS/Uur +vPf95xcAQEn+y1m6GVl2KDFBXgnZEeGtLfe4WLdUl++F52oy2d1TmdTlUV2J0eqBPI+ +RP1U1URPXY/gRlHFBFnHbx8b/mB0Spd+7HGLG93qDHY6L7KUOZPYV5y0mnqzX2OSqD/ dT9WGZR5cLVra8OCVbmiyStHaw9mYGbwwCERC5KcLTXPh8TZcuQAUZDOEUbfO8Vb46N3 45gKDjWdWjlEQhBJ0XH9/TqBAtS46Pkp+H8+0mzfpg8DLzP9nkkPW7Gw2l8ga+2qvh8B U3sQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXO9q2fyZvetBZ71PSTaEAtq2eSoQ7ew0m05kRIhWcEMsEzn/xR pOzlAhipvFXhSofj52baMsE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw1NrDTaX24cbVqarb9Pa2eB7A0y36tcm3j5OHFvY6o+0VwWQomlrWCMvVdccb+Dxu/9HVKBA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:fb52:: with SMTP id c18mr56633614wrs.216.1563542994483; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rpluim-mac ([149.5.228.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 18sm29544229wmg.43.2019.07.19.06.29.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:29:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Pluim To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> <83ef2muqv0.fsf@gnu.org> X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes Mail-Copies-To: never Gmane-Reply-To-List: yes Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:29:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83ef2muqv0.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:54:27 +0300") Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org, alessi@robertalessi.net X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:54:27 +0300, Eli Zaretskii said: >> From: Robert Pluim >> Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:49:47 +0200 >> >> says: >> >> Q: Which block of Greek characters should I use? >> >> A: The answer to that is that it depends what you are doing. But >> generally, the basic Greek block plus the use of the generic combining >> marks in the Combining Diacritical Marks block (U+0300..U+036F) is the >> best approach to polytonic Greek support. Eli> To me, the most important part of this is in the very first sentence. Eli> It is not our business to second-guess "what the user is doing". We Eli> should just make sure they can produce both variants of the characters Eli> involved, and let the user decide what they want/need. That pleads for us doing nothing, since we have that today (just not within the same input method). Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 09:31:29 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 13:31:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55401 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSyu-0001ts-JW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:31:28 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:50434) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSys-0001rf-8l for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:31:26 -0400 Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B64F41B9411; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:31:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: 1CA95EA926B6DD65EE5D2A64BE903D8D627B25AB2FAD4CF6B1E6489066CFA539 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5D7E022001C; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:31:22 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190719133122.GA9882@robertalessi.net> References: <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> <83ef2muqv0.fsf@gnu.org> <83blxquqku.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83blxquqku.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 04:00:33PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Bottom line, after reading this thread and related material on the > net, I must say I don't understand what might be wrong with our > current Greek input methods. It sounds like we allow users to type > both characters with tonos and with oxia, and leave it to them to > decide which one(s) they need. I see nothing wrong with that, because > only the user can know what they need. > > Can someone please point out what am I missing? Preferably with > concrete examples of characters and input methods used to type them. > > TIA This is only my opinion, but since I am the one who started this discussion, I must emphasize that the approach described above sounds me right. At first, being unable to get some substitution rules to work in a Greek font using the oxia variants, and without knowing tonos variants existed, I thought that emacs was using deprecated variants after I came across the page of digitalclassicist.org on ``duplicated vowels''. Further reading showed that this page leads to some confusion. As said in an earlier email, tonos and oxia refer to very different systems, and only the latter should be used for classical Greek, even if nowadays there is no visual distinction between the two. If I understand correctly, greek-ibycus4 which I use is exclusively designed for classical Greek input, but emacs also provides other input methods should one wishes to input modern Greek with tonoi. So as far as I can tell, there is nothing to change. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 09:32:04 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 13:32:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55405 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSzU-0002O2-16 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:32:04 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:50564) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoSzT-0002Mo-5a for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:32:03 -0400 Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C7631A2FFB; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:32:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: E92B91523C08DE0B72CC03EB414CA8AC6D66749C9BAAD29F4A0E63B978BDC8AB Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 581C1220065; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:32:00 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Robert Pluim Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190719133200.GB9882@robertalessi.net> References: <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> <20190719100304.GC5734@robertalessi.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 01:49:00PM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: > Robert> He surely can't! I have one question: do I have to modify the > Robert> greek.el that is in /usr/share/emacs/xx.y/lisp/leim/quail or is there > Robert> some place were to copy it under my own ~/.emacs.d? > > Iʼd copy the relevant code into my .emacs (and perhaps even change the > name of the input method), just to be sure thereʼs no conflict or > accidental loading of the wrong file. > Thank you. R. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 09:33:19 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 13:33:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55409 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoT0g-0002mp-Jl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:33:18 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:51006) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoT0e-0002mg-Ji for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:33:16 -0400 Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1004D1A1186; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:33:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: 369315B0561CFAA4A3520E2A4E591C520410C8C46CCAA4BDEEA0FAEC3C782C52 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9C413220065; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:33:13 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Robert Pluim Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190719133313.GC9882@robertalessi.net> References: <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> <83ef2muqv0.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 03:29:53PM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: > >> Q: Which block of Greek characters should I use? > >> > >> A: The answer to that is that it depends what you are doing. But > >> generally, the basic Greek block plus the use of the generic combining > >> marks in the Combining Diacritical Marks block (U+0300..U+036F) is the > >> best approach to polytonic Greek support. > > Eli> To me, the most important part of this is in the very first sentence. > Eli> It is not our business to second-guess "what the user is doing". We > Eli> should just make sure they can produce both variants of the characters > Eli> involved, and let the user decide what they want/need. > > That pleads for us doing nothing, since we have that today (just not > within the same input method). Agreed. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 09:47:20 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 13:47:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55423 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoTEG-00037N-5h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:47:20 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:55328) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoTEC-00037E-RI for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 09:47:18 -0400 Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 193431B9419; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:47:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: 3E7101EB63F9D03F56C9BCDF1047A0992D9441956BF6FECFC22BE075D66AA549 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A8CE112098B; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:47:12 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190719134712.GD9882@robertalessi.net> References: <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <83lfwuv05b.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719095407.GB5734@robertalessi.net> <83d0i6uqso.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83d0i6uqso.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 03:55:51PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > For example, if one makes no distinction between the two, then it > > becomes harder to analyse large corpuses with a computer. > > What do you mean by "makes no distinction"? Those are different > codepoints, regardless of how they look on display. So we definitely > _can_ distinguish between them. I meant ``mixes up'': suppose you are dealing with large corpuses with passages both in modern and ancient Greek and you only use one of the two existing variants, either tonos or oxia: then if you wish to analyse your texts with a computer, you are in trouble. More generally, any normalization leads to confusion. This page will give you some examples: https://jktauber.com/articles/python-unicode-ancient-greek/ My point is that one should never use tonos variants in ancient Greek. And so never use oxia variants in modern Greek. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 10:27:14 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 14:27:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56401 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoTqs-0004JZ-DF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:27:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37621) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoTqq-0004JN-Qg for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:27:13 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:59604) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoTql-00073I-2i; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:27:07 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3951 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hoTqj-0006PF-RE; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:27:06 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:26:59 +0300 Message-Id: <837e8eumks.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Robert Pluim In-reply-to: (message from Robert Pluim on Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:27:45 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <83h87iur38.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org, alessi@robertalessi.net X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Robert Pluim > Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org, alessi@robertalessi.net > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:27:45 +0200 > > >> My understanding of the situation is that the basic Greek block > >> should be used, rather than the extended Greek block, for the LETTER + > >> OXIA/TONOS combinations (and the extended block versions all decompose > >> to characters in the basic block + a combining mark). > > Iʼm wrong about that bit in the parentheses, at least within Emacs. I > should have said > > "decompose to characters in the basic block, which in turn decompose > to a base character + a combining mark", ie > > GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA WITH OXIA has decomposition > GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA WITH TONOS which has decomposition > GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA + COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT That's OK, but it's not really relevant, AFAIU. We don't force users to type decomposed characters, primarily because that's inconvenient, and because most users wouldn't know what a given precomposed character decomposes into. A user who _wants_ to type decomposed characters can (or at least should be able to) do that, including by using our input methods. > Eli> That's unrelated to the issue at hand, AFAIU. It is relevant to how > Eli> you set up your fonts, but not how our input methods should work. The > Eli> point there is that by using the Greek Extended block, you request the > Eli> precomposed glyphs from the font, which may or may not be according to > Eli> what you want; whereas by using base characters followed by combining > Eli> marks you leave it to the rendering system to select the glyph. But > Eli> we should always keep in mind that the shaping engine we use can (and > Eli> usually does) decide to use a precomposed glyph even when we type the > Eli> character in its decomposed form. So this is not really relevant to > Eli> our issue here. > > Now you've confused me (or Iʼve been unclear). The relevant characters > in the Greek basic block do not result in glyph composition: > > C-u C-x = on ί => > > position: 2893 of 3607 (80%), restriction: <411-3608>, column: 13 > character: ί (displayed as ί) (codepoint 943, #o1657, #x3af) > charset: unicode (Unicode (ISO10646)) > code point in charset: 0x03AF > script: greek > syntax: w which means: word > category: .:Base, L:Left-to-right (strong), g:Greek, j:Japanese > to input: type "C-x 8 RET 3af" or "C-x 8 RET GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA WITH TONOS" > buffer code: #xCE #xAF > file code: #xCE #xAF (encoded by coding system utf-8-emacs) > display: by this font (glyph code) > mac-ct:-*-Hack-normal-normal-normal-*-14-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x5DB) > > Character code properties: customize what to show > name: GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA WITH TONOS > old-name: GREEK SMALL LETTER IOTA TONOS > general-category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) > decomposition: (953 769) ('ι' '́') As hinted by the last line above, you should try the reverse: type "C-x 8 RET 3b9" followed by "C-x 8 RET 301". Then compare that with what you get for "C-x 8 RET 3af". IOW, I wasn't talking about "glyph decomposition" -- there's no such thing AFAIK -- I was talking about the shaping engine displaying 2 characters as a single glyph using the font glyph for the precomposed character. > >> To me that implies that the Greek input methods should use GREEK TONOS > >> (\u384) consistently rather then GREEK OXIA (\u1ffd), but I couldn't > >> see any explicit mention of that, and at least in my font they're > >> visually distinct. > > Eli> I don't actually understand this assertion, because we currently > Eli> provide both forms. So I fail to see a problem in our input methods. > Eli> What did I miss? > > We donʼt provide both forms within the same input method. I don't see why this would be a problem. We should provide the variant expected by modern Greek in the input methods which target modern Greek, and the variants for Classic Greek in input methods which target that. Bonus points for providing at least some of the other variants in each type of the input methods. > The question is whether we should provide both, or provide only > tonos, since letter + oxia were allegedly added by mistake, hence > standalone oxia should not be produced. Or we could change nothing. I don't see that everyone agrees it was a mistake, and in any case both variants are still in usage. So I see no need to change anything. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 10:28:06 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 14:28:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56405 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoTrh-0004L9-Tv for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:28:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37729) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoTrg-0004KY-5S for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:28:04 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:59610) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoTrb-0007Wu-1K; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:27:59 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4004 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hoTrZ-00083m-C6; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:27:57 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:27:52 +0300 Message-Id: <835znyumjb.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Robert Alessi In-reply-to: <20190719133122.GA9882@robertalessi.net> (message from Robert Alessi on Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:31:22 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> <83ef2muqv0.fsf@gnu.org> <83blxquqku.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719133122.GA9882@robertalessi.net> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:31:22 +0200 > From: Robert Alessi > Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org > > If I understand correctly, greek-ibycus4 which I use is exclusively > designed for classical Greek input, but emacs also provides other > input methods should one wishes to input modern Greek with tonoi. > > So as far as I can tell, there is nothing to change. I agree. I think we should close this issue. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 10:41:17 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 14:41:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56414 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoU4T-0004gd-Ik for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:41:17 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f42.google.com ([209.85.128.42]:35086) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoU4R-0004gK-Bz for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:41:16 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f42.google.com with SMTP id l2so29269717wmg.0 for <36717@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:41:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/XcyxB9g3PtlLAuNMdSheOt7TAjngeuUQHqq+2ofCzA=; b=SOCYWrAN70KWgxCFF1v6eKIG0SJ62tZtttD6/qCJtM+hNjVPugD4fV7qnitpoxanlX K0FSxuRqLmKom7X+U3ewwbA6CVk/SDpTQ7V2TorN8MKspWtd0q3Fr5SMx0WpojaLIgJ9 A4QwPHO4WCroB/lTSEdq/ZFQBNfnrmamEpW57x5GMH0HHloLdT38mMvnVQBx5rX7DwNj 2qNrO6WBD+TQYRhXj5uLaF8U5bm1TPRbDtJldqlYc5ZQU+M6kwPu2CzLma6Q/Y0VE+K8 Bgo3SEHSdTx4iglMCzZbC4XXD2EXpPdSNA3x1j0yCF08PWd4uEYvAc87Z2U/8KMe9v0Q +Cqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/XcyxB9g3PtlLAuNMdSheOt7TAjngeuUQHqq+2ofCzA=; b=Jge+/Ypa2TzjJ4KGd/iTX+nd3xSAqHh+dkJurFPxfMxNg/vwGnGtRtDtRsuWHLLkO8 n5wQjQiAEc06CtHszDBYSb0ZReyhuSzZFxe3ROhkJ91IEW4saXoiZ1fEAMmBQrlh3RRS 3C9ipUyD/yZZVohUXYL+Bp9zVlRnr53CQQm2IoXsrcxvndzD2Tcb5/yAtzwHx3BUCIqc n5vIoSxCo3RtN1XKYzk+ndml1O8GyeE2WkeQjb6xe5fOt8JdRTxOV0+xD7sOL7BccQQ2 RdO8QGp+6Ew6JAjqUqPohcNs5g7ftj3ujjybV9nIaWYJp17XTb8oZjwaPgEcE1rbypIP WTyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUVCoIZHRwwo4nhZ7vMNRhKn3NTVHX1bVIxCDTyuB7sso7iUtrJ /KNSPXRGFmgJniK3Tv+5i4g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyZXX1Iz68NBUQYYT3AmMk1d4qrq7PXjZB71k+X10yrSfjF8MRhDx2Nj7IuORvctN9amM+eeA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:24a:: with SMTP id 10mr49639268wmj.7.1563547269415; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rpluim-mac ([149.5.228.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v16sm9994881wrn.28.2019.07.19.07.41.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:41:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Pluim To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <83h87iur38.fsf@gnu.org> <837e8eumks.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:41:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: <837e8eumks.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:26:59 +0300") Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org, alessi@robertalessi.net X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:26:59 +0300, Eli Zaretskii said: Eli> As hinted by the last line above, you should try the reverse: type Eli> "C-x 8 RET 3b9" followed by "C-x 8 RET 301". Then compare that wi= th Eli> what you get for "C-x 8 RET 3af". OK, that=CA=BCs clear now. No sane person would ever do it that way, though= :-) >> We don=CA=BCt provide both forms within the same input method. Eli> I don't see why this would be a problem. We should provide the Eli> variant expected by modern Greek in the input methods which target Eli> modern Greek, and the variants for Classic Greek in input methods Eli> which target that. Bonus points for providing at least some of the Eli> other variants in each type of the input methods. That would be convenient, but should perhaps be a new, separate, input method. Robert From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 10:45:57 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 14:45:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56418 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoU8z-0004o4-69 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:45:57 -0400 Received: from smtp7.tech.numericable.fr ([82.216.111.43]:42240) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoU8w-0004nu-Ve for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:45:56 -0400 Received: from localhost (143.163.124.78.rev.sfr.net [78.124.163.143]) by smtp7.tech.numericable.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6438632CF; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:45:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:45:52 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190719144552.GC11910@robertalessi.net> References: <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <83h87iur38.fsf@gnu.org> <837e8eumks.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <837e8eumks.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: -100 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrieejgdekfecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfpfgfogfftkfevteeunffgpdfqfgfvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggugfgjfgesthekredttderjeenucfhrhhomheptfhosggvrhhtucetlhgvshhsihcuoegrlhgvshhsihesrhhosggvrhhtrghlvghsshhirdhnvghtqeenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhpohhuthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: Robert Pluim , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 05:26:59PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > We donʼt provide both forms within the same input method. > > I don't see why this would be a problem. We should provide the > variant expected by modern Greek in the input methods which target > modern Greek, and the variants for Classic Greek in input methods > which target that. Bonus points for providing at least some of the > other variants in each type of the input methods. > > > The question is whether we should provide both, or provide only > > tonos, since letter + oxia were allegedly added by mistake, hence > > standalone oxia should not be produced. Or we could change nothing. > > I don't see that everyone agrees it was a mistake, and in any case > both variants are still in usage. So I see no need to change > anything. In my opinion, providing oxeia in the first place for classic Greek was very right. The distinction must be kept as some fonts render tonoi and oxeiai very differently. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 10:51:19 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 14:51:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56422 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoUEA-0004x0-QA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:51:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42573) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoUE6-0004wh-NU for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:51:17 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:60028) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoUE1-00088T-2Z; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:51:09 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1455 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hoUE0-0000wY-Eo; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:51:08 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:51:03 +0300 Message-Id: <8336j2ulgo.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Robert Pluim In-reply-to: (message from Robert Pluim on Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:41:07 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <83h87iur38.fsf@gnu.org> <837e8eumks.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org, alessi@robertalessi.net X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Robert Pluim > Cc: 36717@debbugs.gnu.org, alessi@robertalessi.net > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:41:07 +0200 > > >>>>> On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:26:59 +0300, Eli Zaretskii said: > > Eli> As hinted by the last line above, you should try the reverse: type > Eli> "C-x 8 RET 3b9" followed by "C-x 8 RET 301". Then compare that with > Eli> what you get for "C-x 8 RET 3af". > > OK, thatʼs clear now. No sane person would ever do it that way, though :-) Exactly my point, wrt the "advice" to use characters from the Basic Greek block + diacriticals instead of the precomposed characters. > >> We donʼt provide both forms within the same input method. > > Eli> I don't see why this would be a problem. We should provide the > Eli> variant expected by modern Greek in the input methods which target > Eli> modern Greek, and the variants for Classic Greek in input methods > Eli> which target that. Bonus points for providing at least some of the > Eli> other variants in each type of the input methods. > > That would be convenient, but should perhaps be a new, separate, input > method. Could be. However, the existing input methods already provide some of the characters in both variants, and they certainly provide both oxia and tonos as separate diacriticals. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 10:52:04 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 14:52:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56426 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoUEu-0004yo-5s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:52:04 -0400 Received: from smtp1.tech.numericable.fr ([82.216.111.37]:45452) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoUEs-0004yH-4P for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:52:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (143.163.124.78.rev.sfr.net [78.124.163.143]) by smtp1.tech.numericable.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC62114535E; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:52:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:52:00 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Robert Pluim Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190719145200.GD11910@robertalessi.net> References: <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <83h87iur38.fsf@gnu.org> <837e8eumks.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: -100 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrieejgdejiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfpfgfogfftkfevteeunffgpdfqfgfvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujggfsehttdertddtredvnecuhfhrohhmpeftohgsvghrthcutehlvghsshhiuceorghlvghsshhisehrohgsvghrthgrlhgvshhsihdrnhgvtheqnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphhouhhtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 04:41:07PM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: > Eli> I don't see why this would be a problem. We should provide the > Eli> variant expected by modern Greek in the input methods which target > Eli> modern Greek, and the variants for Classic Greek in input methods > Eli> which target that. Bonus points for providing at least some of the > Eli> other variants in each type of the input methods. > > That would be convenient, but should perhaps be a new, separate, input > method. Hard to say. I am thinking of some of my Greek colleagues who produce in modern Greek editions and/or commentaries on classic texts. I am pretty sure that they use tonoi in every instance, but should they wish to keep the distinction between tonos and oxeia, what would be the more comfortable way to work with emacs? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 11:02:07 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 15:02:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56436 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoUOd-0005In-LQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:02:07 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44045) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoUOc-0005Ia-VX for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:02:07 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:60235) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoUNx-0006KG-F1; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:01:35 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2055 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hoUNY-0000y9-C9; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:01:07 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 18:00:55 +0300 Message-Id: <83y30ut6fs.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Robert Alessi In-reply-to: <20190719145200.GD11910@robertalessi.net> (message from Robert Alessi on Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:52:00 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts References: <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <83h87iur38.fsf@gnu.org> <837e8eumks.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719145200.GD11910@robertalessi.net> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:52:00 +0200 > From: Robert Alessi > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 36717@debbugs.gnu.org > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 04:41:07PM +0200, Robert Pluim wrote: > > Eli> I don't see why this would be a problem. We should provide the > > Eli> variant expected by modern Greek in the input methods which target > > Eli> modern Greek, and the variants for Classic Greek in input methods > > Eli> which target that. Bonus points for providing at least some of the > > Eli> other variants in each type of the input methods. > > > > That would be convenient, but should perhaps be a new, separate, input > > method. > > Hard to say. I am thinking of some of my Greek colleagues who produce > in modern Greek editions and/or commentaries on classic texts. I am > pretty sure that they use tonoi in every instance, but should they > wish to keep the distinction between tonos and oxeia, what would be > the more comfortable way to work with emacs? They could switch between input methods back and forth. Or we could add support for the other variants to existing methods, to let users use a single input method. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 19 11:14:36 2019 Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 15:14:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56447 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoUai-0005cn-5T for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:14:36 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:59502) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoUag-0005ce-Da for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:14:34 -0400 Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B39631A11FF; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:14:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: 488D944961F52C2FEBAFC4DDD04DBDF6FBD393A149B82E3DFA0B0F921C6F13C5 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6132C1203CB; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:14:31 +0200 From: Robert Alessi To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Message-ID: <20190719151431.GA13127@robertalessi.net> References: <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <83h87iur38.fsf@gnu.org> <837e8eumks.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719145200.GD11910@robertalessi.net> <83y30ut6fs.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83y30ut6fs.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717 Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 06:00:55PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Hard to say. I am thinking of some of my Greek colleagues who produce > > in modern Greek editions and/or commentaries on classic texts. I am > > pretty sure that they use tonoi in every instance, but should they > > wish to keep the distinction between tonos and oxeia, what would be > > the more comfortable way to work with emacs? > > They could switch between input methods back and forth. This is what I do, and it's fine for me. > Or we could add support for the other variants to existing methods, > to let users use a single input method. Surely, this would be more comfortable for some users, but how many? I can't say. But we were talking earlier about purists who could argue that this addition would 'pollute' such or such input method. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 07 16:17:22 2019 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Aug 2019 20:17:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39499 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hvSN8-0004r0-DH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 16:17:22 -0400 Received: from mail-ot1-f42.google.com ([209.85.210.42]:39109) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hvSN5-0004qh-EZ for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 16:17:20 -0400 Received: by mail-ot1-f42.google.com with SMTP id r21so103448293otq.6 for ; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 13:17:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=NRGEz6eVH1GisuRnkIDwKNibus/uwb8zW4xvZgsCCGQ=; b=D7QDWQ00z4twFhCt3bT+Mtbd9awW0gOMLQwWyXv5//pOIqdV6bK8FSzNjKLg64zFbO j5cRj0T99neOOWr7X9Ou08gLRIUtdGTCAmxATm1smtxLp5CoKmOna6itIrgVuOaehx5S 9PREiLmuKuJd4ht9NJt2qgZUenvs2QapeJVteV9j4kFpe7wFbHhiSVJvY30wiCL+TcYy 2HH2hCQRs1GGxIEDnOrFiA6y24Lh8knwxlV8KtgcmMO3rVxZAv3WRXlG9WUdYarEXes/ cDsC5X/uvUYWWvqT5BfKFSAWiBdZs8nhhBSaFtXn1chWA8auFNBZp+Tf9M5cvrdQ8yTc Ij/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=NRGEz6eVH1GisuRnkIDwKNibus/uwb8zW4xvZgsCCGQ=; b=rgXvYCd2rk5CqkAkXqWpshkWa4iJf4fKuKu+BPV/pB2HuyDs+YxvJq5jlZnP9cHR12 L+QmuYjZ6lzpMRTeW0Hj3Ro6BOoFD6Ytue4Gr2O/JUPZpChHDzkPdtYQud/NunS05eXu QtKar6z4VafVkxdkryXgGpWX1WpiDrtMXsA6oMiXKpySPiDzIGO7qUyFoP1o8dkT496c QyKGG+0RnEKIXq3sEqFyZ16PTEqBFYlDKx6LbT9s54SOA1bBoxQWwNMDhzT9nT6N1mD8 dFOY8xyGSb74U7SiBGw/n/b6ZKKvlrRxWNcNVlKaAqp/lcWPIxMIkxY6gIcxyVrfNt06 Q7MQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVSAjSVJ941H3YuM826dJ7CDPTJmW0mj46k304Q/9zBkw2/Cuua YDJ1ewMn3CjFP1fRqbJQIQHbCRE9 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyUO9hflxbag1YZ7q9p4FKPBIMHmwwFBD/due04zfJoJWgkQnkHXNSyVvv5xWcd45xw4EgSGw== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:5901:: with SMTP id n1mr5355760iob.179.1565209033554; Wed, 07 Aug 2019 13:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vhost2 (CPE001143542e1f-CMf81d0f809fa0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com. [99.230.51.196]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t14sm72537201ioi.60.2019.08.07.13.17.11 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Wed, 07 Aug 2019 13:17:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Noam Postavsky To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: control message for bug #36717 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 16:17:10 -0400 Message-ID: <85pnlg3f3t.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 36717 + notabug quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jan 16 09:00:07 2020 Received: (at 36717-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Jan 2020 14:00:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36891 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1is5gp-0008El-Ku for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 09:00:07 -0500 Received: from ted.gofardesign.uk ([67.225.143.91]:46462) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1is5gk-0008Ch-4d for 36717-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 09:00:02 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=marxist.se; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Trb4JWKHouykgRsXMMBbnHQsTi9DC4y3PEHio00EZ4o=; b=KZbLJbSg7lJLGuWezhF+s6J5fw sphj/ewvngqyns3b5A/Vi3u6k/cmGD/Lv2z2e1sYMcVw9J3062Hqi+wqkvg0PSuTRl4Xc7NAuiYH0 QacCbSGFzmfFgZvY+A1sFAQag01gM6oORI4Jpu6+wyzn2JcKHbsOE8hrkYkjDcYS6jz6XEK+/XL3e KVZaDk0phU5HKV395zS0cfpl9S6pmgHF+eIN7vhmj5R9M5R16Q4MzWhXvSlAk3G+WWvgdya0ySgK0 GMrBAaau4mstxkFM9RnlLehSY26IIFFngjifn1c1hZENeMaQgIl3wSv0tpf1IF3mFVdBQJ0qmcmWj I7XghE3Q==; Received: from h-70-69.a785.priv.bahnhof.se ([155.4.70.69]:55202 helo=localhost) by ted.gofardesign.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1is5gd-000HRC-Gs; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 08:59:51 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts In-Reply-To: <835znyumjb.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:27:52 +0300") References: <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> <20190719094226.GA5734@robertalessi.net> <83ef2muqv0.fsf@gnu.org> <83blxquqku.fsf@gnu.org> <20190719133122.GA9882@robertalessi.net> <835znyumjb.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 14:59:50 +0100 Message-ID: <87eevzy015.fsf@marxist.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ted.gofardesign.uk X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - debbugs.gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - marxist.se X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: ted.gofardesign.uk: authenticated_id: stefan@marxist.se X-Authenticated-Sender: ted.gofardesign.uk: stefan@marxist.se X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 36717-done Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, Robert Alessi , 36717-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:31:22 +0200 >> From: Robert Alessi >> Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org >> >> If I understand correctly, greek-ibycus4 which I use is exclusively >> designed for classical Greek input, but emacs also provides other >> input methods should one wishes to input modern Greek with tonoi. >> >> So as far as I can tell, there is nothing to change. > > I agree. I think we should close this issue. Closed. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From unknown Mon Jun 23 20:19:34 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator