GNU bug report logs - #3615
23.0.94; (elisp)Local Variables: xrefs to nodes for buffer-local and frame-local vars

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Message #5 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: <emacs-pretest-bug <at> gnu.org>
Subject: 23.0.94; (elisp)Local Variables: xrefs to nodes for buffer-local and frame-local vars
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 00:43:51 -0700

It would help to add a cross reference in this Info node to the nodes
that explain buffer-local vars and frame-local vars, saying that this
is a different notion of "local" variable.
 
And vice versa. Put xrefs at the nodes about buffer-local and
frame-local, pointing to the other nodes (e.g. Local Variables).
 
The aims are to (1) point to the other nodes, and (2) say that these
are not closely related, in spite of their similar names.
 
This would help because users are not necessarily clear that these are
different critters, and looking for info about one, they might end up
mistakenly reading about another, perhaps without even realizing it.

In GNU Emacs 23.0.94.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600)
 of 2009-05-24 on SOFT-MJASON
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600
configured using `configure --with-gcc (3.4)'

Message #10 received at 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: 23.0.94;
	(elisp)Local Variables: xrefs to nodes for buffer-local and
	frame-local vars
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:15:59 +0200

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:

> It would help to add a cross reference in this Info node to the nodes
> that explain buffer-local vars and frame-local vars, saying that this
> is a different notion of "local" variable.

This seems to have been fixed.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Message #17 received at 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: "'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen'" <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: 23.0.94;
	(elisp)Local Variables: xrefs to nodes for buffer-local and
	frame-local vars
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 07:50:55 -0700

> This seems to have been fixed.

No, I don't see that.  Please read the report again.

Where do you see, as one example, anything about frame-local variables here?

Message #20 received at 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: 23.0.94;
	(elisp)Local Variables: xrefs to nodes for buffer-local and
	frame-local vars
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:12:56 +0200

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:

> Where do you see, as one example, anything about frame-local variables here?

frame-local variables are pretty much deprecated, so there didn't seem
to be any point.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Message #23 received at 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: "'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen'" <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: 23.0.94;
	(elisp)Local Variables: xrefs to nodes for buffer-local and
	frame-local vars
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 09:08:58 -0700

> > Where do you see, as one example, anything about 
> > frame-local variables here?
> 
> frame-local variables are pretty much deprecated, so there didn't seem
> to be any point.

1. There is an Elisp manual node, `Frame-Local Variables'.  It is even in the
main Elisp menu (`Top'), which emphasizes its importance.

If frame-local variables have been deprecated and are not to be referred to in
the doc, then a much bigger correction to the manual is needed than just what
this bug report calls for: remove that node and all references to it.

However, I see _nothing_ in NEWS about frame-local variables being deprecated.


2. In any case, this bug report is about more than frame-local variables.

There is now a cross ref from `Local Variables' to `Buffer-Local Variables'
(good), but there is still no cross ref from the latter to the former.  And
still no explanation at `Local Variables' that it describes a different notion
of "local variable" from the other two.

It especially needs to be pointed out that "these [three notions] are not
closely related, in spite of their similar names", as the bug report says.  This
is not at all obvious, and is a recurrent cause of confusion.

Note, BTW, that there _is_ a cross ref from `Buffer-Local Variables' to
`Frame-Local Variables', and vice-versa.  What's missing are the connections to
`Local Variables'.

Message #28 received at 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: "'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen'" <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: 23.0.94;
	(elisp)Local Variables: xrefs to nodes for buffer-local and
	frame-local vars
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 09:12:53 -0700

It was inappropriate to close this bug as `unreproducible'.

The bug description still applies.
It is reproducible, at least in this recent build:

In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600)
 of 2011-06-27 on 3249CTO
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600
configured using `configure --with-gcc (4.5) --no-opt --cflags
-Ic:/build/include'

Message #31 received at 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Chong Yidong <cyd <at> stupidchicken.com>
To: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen' <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#3615: 23.0.94;
	(elisp)Local Variables: xrefs to nodes for buffer-local and
	frame-local vars
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:23:51 -0400

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:

> 1. There is an Elisp manual node, `Frame-Local Variables'.  It is even
> in the main Elisp menu (`Top'), which emphasizes its importance.
>
> If frame-local variables have been deprecated and are not to be
> referred to in the doc, then a much bigger correction to the manual is
> needed than just what this bug report calls for: remove that node and
> all references to it.
>
> However, I see _nothing_ in NEWS about frame-local variables being
> deprecated.

You're looking in the wrong NEWS.  Check out the NEWS for Emacs 22...

I'll work on removing the Frame-Local Variables node from the Elisp
manual.

Message #36 received at 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: drew.adams <at> oracle.com, 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#3615: 23.0.94;
	(elisp)Local Variables: xrefs to nodes for buffer-local and
	frame-local vars
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 02:51:37 -0400

Why deprecate frame-local variables?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/

Message #39 received at 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Juanma Barranquero <lekktu <at> gmail.com>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#3615: 23.0.94; (elisp)Local Variables: xrefs to nodes for
	buffer-local and frame-local vars
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 12:57:54 +0200

> Why deprecate frame-local variables?

There's a long thread in emacs-devel, titled "frame-local variables
weirdness", started on 2006-12-05. After many exchanges, you said:

"When frame-local variables were first implemented, there was no other
way to put frame-specific data in the mode line.  But now there is,
with :eval.

Since they are hardly used, and the original motive for them
no longer applies, we may as well delete the feature.

Would you like to do that?"

and Stefan answered:

"Sure.  I currently just marked it obsolete in the 22 branch (with a note in
NEWS), see patch below.  I'll change the pieces of code which make use of
that feature on the trunk.  If anybody wants to help out: feel free."

and then you said:

"I will delete them from the Lisp manual."

Basically, they are a source of subtle, obscure bugs; they do not
provide (almost) anything that cannot be done with
(set-)?frame-parameter, and after ten years or so of its
implementation they had all of four uses in the sources, all of them
trivial and trivially changed.

    Juanma

Message #42 received at 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Juanma Barranquero <lekktu <at> gmail.com>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 3615 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#3615: 23.0.94; (elisp)Local Variables: xrefs to nodes for
	buffer-local and frame-local vars
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 14:32:25 -0400

Thanks.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/

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