From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 26 11:34:39 2019 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2019 15:34:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51449 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUvAT-0002KS-Vx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 11:34:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39230) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUqil-0006xR-K3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 06:49:45 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:56734) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hUqig-0007sn-7Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 06:49:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53414) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hUqie-0004Ta-Re for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 06:49:38 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hUqWu-0007AE-VZ for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 06:37:30 -0400 Received: from mx1.mailbox.org ([2001:67c:2050:104:0:1:25:1]:10438) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hUqWu-0006z8-Di for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 06:37:28 -0400 Received: from smtp1.mailbox.org (smtp1.mailbox.org [IPv6:2001:67c:2050:105:465:1:1:0]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEF4C4EE41 for ; Sun, 26 May 2019 12:37:21 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mailbox.org; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-language:content-type :content-type:mime-version:date:date:message-id:subject:subject :from:from:received; s=mail20150812; t=1558867039; bh=YF3ahuHV/L WDyIqWKfeNNaLMeTFUooeny2XvE7X+9Qs=; b=CdqHO6hh9WUfDRtYif+KepBY7b zSb58dQevlthEW+hKIG4SC7gaq7kR3yAPKA7heZ8Rg+ZCf/ZicTX3mgNHi8spRCd vJe/VJKqJCxlePCuz860nfhDsw8Ql1asNL5y/ZSIMe3D3aPwOZLyozaNBcfH17BN 0Vvdgs8cCtpJVfF1zy45nitVKVkpwbt7Ozjch1cScmRaJEMpwpujGJv5VOS/C2EQ GXNxI/sfYAmtvgP1h16hKO20rWa9FBqlUBLAVAr5oVRJa28g56L273GLALpdKMnJ d+yc/JrAY/xc9Oppa9jqPfkH+pUEwkVO1swFg+eM4AQCKPsws8gdjC5RnKAg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailbox.org; s=mail20150812; t=1558867041; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to: references; bh=YF3ahuHV/LWDyIqWKfeNNaLMeTFUooeny2XvE7X+9Qs=; b=b0DkKfAjt1wAtoBdllzWvYuV5vvd/YKeLHGUOENHxkbo48m0vfXyJtZzeG/xov0dFUOOVZ yYfZKKaUIBKwn1zsEIpedtDmKYiMadH9gFY7tVtquRTql/oOhdM61b6nOxyg73iOrne+8M MdOZ1BvnL/bQDfC3WK3mbIDeF1EOlY/Z5qzyvGuxNhRxtFV16Rk/ecU4UJNxs1vEpv9FvO 7aOPKE8CLrFLoERuzD+D6vbKfCM64Su4jiLcDHRQJT/AcQ17Uve+JZviFkx3e54Z1omQjr zrle3aSKqlRGB1oVRGAVLwVzCGzoGxnLjccDGHu7bROPtX8/5iqSP9jfLIs15w== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de Received: from smtp1.mailbox.org ([80.241.60.240]) by spamfilter04.heinlein-hosting.de (spamfilter04.heinlein-hosting.de [80.241.56.122]) (amavisd-new, port 10030) with ESMTP id iJ_1-Z6QIDDp for ; Sun, 26 May 2019 12:37:19 +0200 (CEST) To: bug-guix@gnu.org From: juh Subject: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers Message-ID: <18075d76-d9b5-05d6-e21e-28b6afed4a88@mailbox.org> Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 12:37:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2001:67c:2050:104:0:1:25:1 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 26 May 2019 11:34:36 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Dear developers of Guix, I am very much in favour of Open Hardware and Free Software, and I appreciate every effort to foster free software. That in advance. Guix is not just another Linux distribution, but something new that supports transactional upgrades and roll-backs, unprivileged package management and declarative system configuration. This is really exciting. If Guix were just another distro focusing on free software, there would be no need for a nonfree installer iso. But in case of Guix I think it is missing. Please consider that using hardware that is supported by free drivers is a privilege. Many people cannot afford a computer with supported hardware, others are not able to look for the right components, and compare long lists of supported hardware with the specs from computer shops, and last but not least many people just got a computer from others =E2=80=93 as a gift maybe. They all have to stick with their hardw= are and they should not be excluded from the exciting Guix approach. I think that many of them would give Guix a try if it was installable in a way like debian is installable with their firmware driver iso: https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmw= are/ I see that it is possible to make a custom kernel for Guix: For eg. https://gist.github.com/TeMPOraL/306bbb7c627ab0d32fa84af831963563 It would be really nice to have at least an unofficial installer with nonfree drivers. If there is a nonfree installer iso please make a note on the webpage. Thanks a lot juh From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 26 13:23:55 2019 Received: (at 35915-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2019 17:23:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51648 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUwsE-0005jr-Kl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 13:23:54 -0400 Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.28]:48893) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUwsC-0005jb-6i for 35915-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 13:23:53 -0400 Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0E621B1B; Sun, 26 May 2019 13:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 26 May 2019 13:23:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm2; bh=zT+AnMhaIv6CweI9cpvY3xEqbreY6kHqTkzQ8p43lHo=; b=7sORP3CO Av1kf9PNkqTI2oBEeUOKdgTjpQSvo0jJXyoGX+oGMsr+KhEZRlj3t69uRBeiKUPC T3o8RvIKebx08pL8kaqtYgmnmo16odtSlbPBDCXIkWH8QKaNOpTZIi5Xf0uoE17t /GLMcSSBXs2NMqvrG928Q0A7gHTPhelUqcOo/AO73gT8gWYkXIWtShpSH+/Vzekh hZNWjgvNI3LKDO8v7F/OxIwxQdPWg2BkSMy5SvarsXNyF8xwCQFjp+z+8U9JHapX Y2WtbrNcb5n11FAWfngV4VVFLyUF96YjJYfPXHQVONILP9eK0OdyAUKz1bLmmdtE C3m0qMtHzAn+2Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduuddruddvtddguddugecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhephffvufhffffkfgggtgfgsehtqh ertddtreejnecuhfhrohhmpefvihhmohhthhihucfurghmphhlvgcuoehsrghmphhlvght sehnghihrhhordgtohhmqeenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmpdguvggsih grnhdrohhrghdpghhnuhdrohhrghenucfkphepjeegrdduudeirddukeeirdeggeenucfr rghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshgrmhhplhgvthesnhhghihrohdrtghomhenucevlh hushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from mrblack (74-116-186-44.qc.dsl.ebox.net [74.116.186.44]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A251C8005C; Sun, 26 May 2019 13:23:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Timothy Sample To: juh Subject: Re: bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers References: <18075d76-d9b5-05d6-e21e-28b6afed4a88@mailbox.org> Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 13:23:44 -0400 Message-ID: <87sgt13za7.fsf@ngyro.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35915-done Cc: 35915-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hi juh, I=E2=80=99m closing this bug, because I=E2=80=99m certain it=E2=80=99s not = something the *GNU* Guix project is willing to consider. As long as Guix is a GNU project, any capitulation to the world of non-free software or locked-down hardware is not an option. That being said, I can appreciate the time you took to write this, so I=E2=80=99ve provided some comments below. juh writes: > Dear developers of Guix, > > I am very much in favour of Open Hardware and Free Software, and I > appreciate every effort to foster free software. That in advance. > > Guix is not just another Linux distribution, but something new that > supports transactional upgrades and roll-backs, unprivileged package > management and declarative system configuration. This is really > exciting. If Guix were just another distro focusing on free software, > there would be no need for a nonfree installer iso. But in case of Guix > I think it is missing. I agree that Guix has a lot to offer! :) > Please consider that using hardware that is supported by free drivers is > a privilege. Many people cannot afford a computer with supported > hardware, others are not able to look for the right components, and > compare long lists of supported hardware with the specs from computer > shops, and last but not least many people just got a computer from > others =E2=80=93 as a gift maybe. They all have to stick with their hardw= are and > they should not be excluded from the exciting Guix approach. You make some good points here, but remember that it is not you or me or the Guix project that is manufacturing incompatible hardware. Why should it be our job to accommodate it? All of these problems would disappear quickly if the current culture of secrecy and protectionism among hardware manufacturers relaxed a little bit. Distributing a non-free version of Guix would amount to deciding that the wrong-headedness of the computer hardware industry is more important than the freedom of users, which is a rather uncomfortable choice to make. :/ > I think that many of them would give Guix a try if it was installable in > a way like debian is installable with their firmware driver iso: > https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmw= are/ > > > I see that it is possible to make a custom kernel for Guix: > For eg. https://gist.github.com/TeMPOraL/306bbb7c627ab0d32fa84af831963563 > > It would be really nice to have at least an unofficial installer with > nonfree drivers. If there is a nonfree installer iso please make a note > on the webpage. It may be convenient for someone to distribute a non-free version of Guix, but that someone isn=E2=80=99t going to be the GNU Guix project. It = is our job to be the hardliners, ensuring that the whole distribution gives users the four freedoms. I read something (but can=E2=80=99t seem to find = it now) from Chris Webber saying that it is much easier to remove freedom from a free system than it is to make a non-free system free. Essentially, anyone who wants to make such a non-free installer is free to do so, and would probably find such a task pretty easy (in my experience Guix is rather well designed and quite flexible). The GNU Guix project, however, would not support it or recommend using it. For a recent take on a similar issue from the GNU website, see . -- Tim From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 26 16:01:13 2019 Received: (at 35915) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2019 20:01:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51840 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUzKS-0002bq-PN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 16:01:13 -0400 Received: from dd26836.kasserver.com ([85.13.145.193]:47034) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUzKQ-0002Yf-9Q for 35915@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 16:01:11 -0400 Received: from localhost (77.116.136.227.wireless.dyn.drei.com [77.116.136.227]) by dd26836.kasserver.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C6B5133600D9; Sun, 26 May 2019 22:01:07 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 22:01:04 +0200 From: Danny Milosavljevic To: juh Subject: Re: bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers Message-ID: <20190526220104.1aba1273@scratchpost.org> In-Reply-To: <18075d76-d9b5-05d6-e21e-28b6afed4a88@mailbox.org> References: <18075d76-d9b5-05d6-e21e-28b6afed4a88@mailbox.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.3 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_//Rk1GtLC.s2v6KT8FK4dU4G"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35915 Cc: 35915@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) --Sig_//Rk1GtLC.s2v6KT8FK4dU4G Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Sun, 26 May 2019 12:37:18 +0200 juh wrote: >If Guix were just another distro focusing on free software, > there would be no need for a nonfree installer iso. But in case of Guix > I think it is missing [and necessary]. Yeah, that's a common argument in the Open Source source camp. But building something worth using doesn't mean we have to compromise our values--quite the opposite. > Please consider that using hardware that is supported by free drivers is > a privilege. Many people cannot afford a computer with supported > hardware, others are not able to look for the right components, and > compare long lists of supported hardware with the specs from computer > shops, and last but not least many people just got a computer from > others =E2=80=93 as a gift maybe.=20 I started my career the latter way myself, so I understand what you mean. But there are other distributions--and you are free to use a non-gnu Linux distribution with your non-free hardware. You are also free to configure our distribution so that it works with your non-free hardware--but we will not help you with that part (because it would be like the pope giving advice on how to evade commandments--that's just not a good idea). I would hate the idea of hardware going into a landfill because of this. BUT closed firmware, especially closed communications (Wifi, LAN) and closed display and input drivers are a *security problem*, especially when using a monolithic kernel. With USB existing and USB devices being pretty cheap, there is no need to support weird peripherals when you can just stick a Free USB Wifi stick, hard drive or even graphics card in your non-free computer instead (If possible, we should at least detect unsupported hardware and warn about it in Guix--that would be nice) Also, the situation on x86 is good--there are hardware devices in every category that work just fine with Free software. I think tech is the hegemony tool of the millenium. See what the USA is doing to Huawei now. Want to be in that situation in the NEAR future where you can't get security updates on hardware you own because some weird foreign government says the vendors are forbidden by law to do it? That doesn't seem to be a good dependency to enter into as a user. We thought vendor lock-in was bad but that's nothing against these state-level threats. (in this case, it works because the Android updates are handled by Google even for Huawei, and Google is bound by USA law; there are a lot of other worse things closed hardware and/or software vendors can and *will* do) Now is the time to seperate from these machinations entirely--and hardware that at least has Free drivers that can be improved by ANYONE is a pretty low bar to reach to improve the situation for humanity. In the long run, we should strive for Free hardware that has the schematics, including the processor design source code, available for anyone to use or modify as he sees fit (this, including the processor, is under way right now). If there are free alternatives, we should steer people to those alternative= s. > It would be really nice to have at least an unofficial installer with > nonfree drivers. We don't stop anyone from making one. I am a strong believer in freedom 0: To be allowed to run the program as you wish, for ANY purpose. So do it if you think it's useful. When you distribute the result you have to be careful to heed the applicable licenses, though. Funnily enough the GNU General Public License is a lot less draconian than most of the licenses you'll have on the closed source firmwares. GNU is a political movement and the goals are political: To give people control over their computing. When you use non-free hardware you don't have control over your computing. If we helped you do it, what would that make us? >If there is a nonfree installer iso please make a note on the webpage. We can't do that. --Sig_//Rk1GtLC.s2v6KT8FK4dU4G Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEds7GsXJ0tGXALbPZ5xo1VCwwuqUFAlzq8IAACgkQ5xo1VCww uqUjqwf7BXYG9QYmtTFscpLVqhQpTr6tL7Oa5K8mp7Y8BVGzeMpB53naWYnR0KnM HTyx/Kip4K6AjnGTSA9iVzF9Cn08w5NRjwJaEp74m6gHRug+CreC7uXTKFZUAxCK xmeWaZ/nnHJI1yb6oYRUZ6iCvTGsAX84WAwv8hOI4biWd+sYkp63egF9TvScvw1O L788WZD6xZB11SVnoCGzGDb+z+Ft6ovmXOdzpTL3EpOF08c43X8NrpCmgjXAaYfW AWAXO5FjlTCfUdMgy3SyQIRT3vNkdpV2xfZlfuLN2HmXYQmjFqCJ2ImWJqpguiNw ANSYsT6IPMrKHMBSrloqIx+m42+E1w== =VugW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_//Rk1GtLC.s2v6KT8FK4dU4G-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 26 18:06:31 2019 Received: (at 35915-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2019 22:06:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52015 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hV1Hi-0006tl-Tq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 18:06:31 -0400 Received: from sender-of-o51.zoho.com ([135.84.80.216]:21236) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hV1Hg-0006tc-JZ for 35915-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 18:06:29 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1558908358; cv=none; d=zoho.com; s=zohoarc; b=R0gcf8cSXqkX8CO4Vp+Ab4Z9CZNFH6EWcGh3a4RVF7/9AgiOE+89DakiNguoGwT0TNcmEpk6kiTG5Ukn/IgX0+llj3SC3jLWvo3lsU1Wkm5E4aYbstqgwoCCPrvHU7s81lzCOa9lJ3V8yI3iMZF2ohThytwO09eFlWjSs4KKLYU= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zoho.com; s=zohoarc; t=1558908358; h=Content-Type:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To:ARC-Authentication-Results; bh=gxeWv1FDQrYBe3P+WH7mgZcqp+SwwHrFh+STcPek7qk=; b=YClhB0WoSS29hXjq27AOVjTuvwbOBpeLkEa00woVt4QiB5yquiPfFOw2CkIP/tkYkIELeAGLY4ltPmWi979IqXg7snFTfOlY9P7+OnJADRT3vVoCNEv7lsEQcKip1lPd7jqyjaMISEEwwl7RTWNjUwQHzHEP6DJcnbz+iHyrUdg= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zoho.com; dkim=pass header.i=elephly.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=rekado@elephly.net; dmarc=pass header.from= header.from= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1558908358; s=zoho; d=elephly.net; i=rekado@elephly.net; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type; l=596; bh=gxeWv1FDQrYBe3P+WH7mgZcqp+SwwHrFh+STcPek7qk=; b=TS3suuRa7QSPRUs0AxarscT1u6xVKGKweI4UqAjG0dh2mHob5YKK8YgH/BiuDZdu dmzKQ21SMJVkgsY3SReYK1bb5Rj02p0LgU4PxfMbxVlvIg2YOiTRKFiYzhGVY4D+Ks8 +E0aq/eCy/FqOU/EQ5OqalFsb1sORikexUTXhZ8k= Received: from localhost (p54AD435C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.173.67.92]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 1558908357814957.1793835769408; Sun, 26 May 2019 15:05:57 -0700 (PDT) References: <18075d76-d9b5-05d6-e21e-28b6afed4a88@mailbox.org> User-agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.2 From: Ricardo Wurmus To: juh Subject: Re: bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers In-reply-to: <18075d76-d9b5-05d6-e21e-28b6afed4a88@mailbox.org> X-URL: https://elephly.net X-PGP-Key: https://elephly.net/rekado.pubkey X-PGP-Fingerprint: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6 2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 00:05:54 +0200 Message-ID: <87imtw27nh.fsf@elephly.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-ZohoMailClient: External X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35915-done Cc: 35915-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi juh, > It would be really nice to have at least an unofficial installer with > nonfree drivers. If there is a nonfree installer iso please make a note > on the webpage. The Guix project will not distribute or recommend non-free software, as it abides by the Free System Distribution Guidelines: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html If such an inofficial installer image existed (which can easily be built with Guix just like the official image is generated) it would thus not be hosted or advertised on the project web site. -- Ricardo From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 26 20:50:55 2019 Received: (at 35915) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2019 00:50:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52211 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hV3qo-0002qj-Qd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 20:50:55 -0400 Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.24]:57435) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hV3ql-0002qM-6T for 35915@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 20:50:51 -0400 Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD58477; Sun, 26 May 2019 20:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 26 May 2019 20:50:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=famulari.name; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=mesmtp; bh=GQ/fWCLwhwE/pCOExiygyu3O XrnKMJdO842gSc2vyvE=; b=ILfYCzsL2IgsLbS3uFP3waGxMWjhFJPOYpVDCdrZ QKvY1sswPtrnSD8v43GhVu8NcQT4zaCR5LozOU3daKZbwhAmMwxV5t5UB5FIVMWF Q1lo5q1lM88DxgksoEnE6YcVM/OFWn5m0DwlufQIAt6xkZt/GaKxwQgq1a4XyjCI VEo= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=GQ/fWC LwhwE/pCOExiygyu3OXrnKMJdO842gSc2vyvE=; b=gZK4TcEp0UalWAe1H1Vg+G 7ak7wieE8xBg+91KXinPwZ5xzR/FX6UcoNS/mXXQMQCN8ztQO5Y3tuTkM94opf9e w1mY193sIsjjFH7efaZgpol81OktOex8aeMFV6wROcrkz6nSmKvrS8g6uA5BOJZC o0OIVpIPfRBypio0OYhuDbwIrLx2K1BOUYndhKnZoZewBRBBqDiCpyII4caOGLGE 3h19s2CtMHMQUUAfFVwaw8oqG1vARUHPzrzist/L1pd5hRGjVzbOMMHOyZ8i35Du /TVPOzkwka6RbyS3t5A/oMzdsYJT0FFj8m79xiZgAejrr4leicxS/zUDv57HxSng == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduuddruddvuddgfeejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujggfsehgtd erredtredvnecuhfhrohhmpefnvghoucfhrghmuhhlrghrihcuoehlvghosehfrghmuhhl rghrihdrnhgrmhgvqeenucfkphepjeeirdduvdegrddufeekrdeifeenucfrrghrrghmpe hmrghilhhfrhhomheplhgvohesfhgrmhhulhgrrhhirdhnrghmvgenucevlhhushhtvghr ufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from localhost (c-76-124-138-63.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [76.124.138.63]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 529C2380088; Sun, 26 May 2019 20:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 20:50:41 -0400 From: Leo Famulari To: juh Subject: Re: bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers Message-ID: <20190527005041.GA31402@jasmine.lan> References: <18075d76-d9b5-05d6-e21e-28b6afed4a88@mailbox.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <18075d76-d9b5-05d6-e21e-28b6afed4a88@mailbox.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.4 (2019-03-13) X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35915 Cc: 35915@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, May 26, 2019 at 12:37:18PM +0200, juh wrote: > Guix is not just another Linux distribution, but something new that > supports transactional upgrades and roll-backs, unprivileged package > management and declarative system configuration. This is really > exciting. If Guix were just another distro focusing on free software, > there would be no need for a nonfree installer iso. But in case of Guix > I think it is missing. Personally I agree with you. Guix is a great advance in technology and in some ways the project holds itself back by not shipping with support for most WiFi chips. Wireless networking is a crucial technology in 2019 and the standards of usability or user friendliness of technology have never been higher. > Please consider that using hardware that is supported by free drivers is > a privilege. I agree with this too and frankly it can't be understated. Being picky about which computer to use costs some money and, even more important for many of us, time. However, as others have said, Guix is a GNU project, so there is no option for GNU Guix to distribute an installer with non-free drivers. We appreciate your thoughtful email and I hope you will stick around and join our community :) --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEsFFZSPHn08G5gDigJkb6MLrKfwgFAlzrNF4ACgkQJkb6MLrK fwj5/Q/8C/0AtzzVbay74TBxgNC6Kz9MVi45XK827Tvq+iLAnFk156ZPnhpMb0G5 OxGMdDZbg0sHJXzzTFz6l6p0XFAMZyI2MArtQ3bJ6tl+yzOUmMGTBM0r0OS/1EEh qQKCvJ9hmNHggZ9uJBEskr510TZzrgl0IIIdJ40tTZowSGNnVZHKaw4l+Lj1lrDA yVymGhoD78FoaPIimvVdb/aVchHryjU/uszWh200knUd1uewVQxDp9Lqo5d86hzv 3jexbOTywtNcdAfgsTBwAlZw7dnro76EUrgMywh7wpurWBNOnk3dm2MCMl+fYDzH ICNVoj/82S+Gr9ijZWWq9NVbkg+nfVwHmozmyIerRSq2X6dX9oTXGqacFkj3FTTL xG2mvmEc3S+lus6PpjutD5VPQTOksJayWWkmedDiNiTcGbdTPiofPzS4F5bgrmKw llzM0lSHqkFnooEFsIoKLcE6lDd1KneemAenLzfLVUeWwFsY2SvNh7CPWuPeTOcj xlQtVQe4OL6+jOy/HBcUH0FWzXWE7QjDRW3xfPz28OmwqUj56p9mCQ7TMi4sfEHi aC0XsU4/kPGK/Ex7WsOusmPAbRihDzcGV1yl4bX7IV68SC7HlzGyg/2L4/oiuNtC VLs8awVR9GczToqir5qpjRaXmp1wg6afrYBQNXtc+hDtJBzLd68= =eVTu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --WIyZ46R2i8wDzkSu-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 27 03:11:16 2019 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2019 07:11:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52541 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hV9mt-00057U-Ph for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 May 2019 03:11:16 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58033) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hV9ms-00057D-5Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 May 2019 03:11:14 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:40360) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hV9mn-0006Sy-3W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 May 2019 03:11:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44177) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hV9ml-0003PL-SZ for bug-guix@gnu.org; Mon, 27 May 2019 03:11:08 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY,URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hV9mk-0006Rf-Kg for bug-guix@gnu.org; Mon, 27 May 2019 03:11:07 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:44014) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hV9mk-0006Qg-Cx for bug-guix@gnu.org; Mon, 27 May 2019 03:11:06 -0400 Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45BF71A304F; Mon, 27 May 2019 00:11:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1558941064; bh=srTUiSh5OhdKw40swRPAuKaNmJRjkgJIkonPpVtkUq8=; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date:From; b=GiK+OQephfTZMr8DyVyNjdyHUJxEalIqC1geA0S+4ylmpeGNJi+BSrSiM1sYDrqTH f6s0eD+20msFaBDGW9EkOu0U+Qa9XN5UGeV3ZxLdWQVZCx1sUNq1Ub7uCD8xLD5qYj 4FONtlXea4iq4CPGRwizyagZq4LqzQmH0swxbHJg= X-Riseup-User-ID: B94257526B25B09F9A6C306C06D1D17C48E6AA7CA4059D656554A21FAF667F7E Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E438E120CC6; Mon, 27 May 2019 00:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [local]) by localhost (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPA id 03fb75b7; Mon, 27 May 2019 07:09:44 +0000 (UTC) References: <18075d76-d9b5-05d6-e21e-28b6afed4a88@mailbox.org> From: Meiyo Peng To: bug-guix@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers In-reply-to: <18075d76-d9b5-05d6-e21e-28b6afed4a88@mailbox.org> Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 15:09:44 +0800 Message-ID: <87lfysidaf.fsf@riseup.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 198.252.153.129 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 35915@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) Hi juh, juh writes: > I am very much in favour of Open Hardware and Free Software, and I > appreciate every effort to foster free software. That in advance. > > Guix is not just another Linux distribution, but something new that > supports transactional upgrades and roll-backs, unprivileged package > management and declarative system configuration. This is really > exciting. If Guix were just another distro focusing on free software, > there would be no need for a nonfree installer iso. But in case of Guix > I think it is missing. > > Please consider that using hardware that is supported by free drivers is > a privilege. Many people cannot afford a computer with supported > hardware, others are not able to look for the right components, and > compare long lists of supported hardware with the specs from computer > shops, and last but not least many people just got a computer from > others =E2=80=93 as a gift maybe. They all have to stick with their hardw= are and > they should not be excluded from the exciting Guix approach. > > I think that many of them would give Guix a try if it was installable in > a way like debian is installable with their firmware driver iso: > https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmw= are/ > > > I see that it is possible to make a custom kernel for Guix: > For eg. https://gist.github.com/TeMPOraL/306bbb7c627ab0d32fa84af831963563 > > It would be really nice to have at least an unofficial installer with > nonfree drivers. If there is a nonfree installer iso please make a note > on the webpage. Just a friendly reminder. Although many computers contain non-free hardware, most of them can run the official Guix installer without a problem. Most of the time, an unrecognized network card is the only road blocker. If so, the easiest trick is to connect an Android phone to your computer via USB cable and enable "USB tethering" in Settings ("Network & internet" -> "Hotspot & tethering" -> "USB tethering"). Then your phone will work like a network card and you can proceed the installation process as usual. After that, you can customize your system however you want. For example, use a customized kernel. (You are free to do that, but we won't help you.) -- Meiyo Peng https://www.pengmeiyu.com/ From unknown Sat Aug 16 00:34:38 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 11:24:06 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator