From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:35:15 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#35887 <35887@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#35887 <35887@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Reply-To: bug#35887 <35887@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 17:35:15 +0000 retitle 35887 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying reassign 35887 emacs submitter 35887 Bob Proulx severity 35887 wishlist tag 35887 wontfix notabug thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 24 15:51:52 2019 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 May 2019 19:51:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47397 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUGEH-0002Vy-W9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 15:51:52 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37152) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUGED-0002Vi-SL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 15:51:47 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:52603) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hUGE8-0002E7-M2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 15:51:40 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51506) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hUGE3-0000Hk-AE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 15:51:40 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hUGDy-00027W-8G for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 15:51:35 -0400 Received: from havoc.proulx.com ([96.88.95.61]:44818) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hUGDx-00026Q-Su for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 15:51:30 -0400 Received: from joseki.proulx.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by havoc.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C5012B for ; Fri, 24 May 2019 13:51:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hysteria.proulx.com (hysteria.proulx.com [192.168.230.119]) by joseki.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2245421134 for ; Fri, 24 May 2019 13:51:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: by hysteria.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EBC5E2DC7D; Fri, 24 May 2019 13:51:27 -0600 (MDT) From: Bob Proulx To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 13:51:27 -0600 Message-ID: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 96.88.95.61 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the buffer. Please revert this. Users that wish it are free to enable it. Yes I know I can disable it. For others looking and finding this message this following will disable it. (setq global-eldoc-mode nil) But one should not always have to be disabling annoying features. People should be required to enable annoying features. Line from the movie Ready Player One that I think applies. Suits in a boardroom meeting. "We have found that we can obscure up to 80% of the user's vision with advertisements before seizures occur." Bob In GNU Emacs 26.1 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, Xaw3d scroll ba= rs) of 2019-02-03, modified by Debian built on zam904 System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) Recent messages: Composing main Info directory...done Mark saved where search started [2 times] Mark set next-line: End of buffer [3 times] Saving file /home/bob/.timelog... Wrote /home/bob/.timelog Saving file /home/bob/.timelog... Wrote /home/bob/.timelog You can run the command =E2=80=98timeclock-change=E2=80=99 with C-x t c Wrote /home/bob/.timelog Configured using: 'configure --build x86_64-linux-gnu --prefix=3D/usr --sharedstatedir=3D/var/lib --libexecdir=3D/usr/lib --localstatedir=3D/var/lib --infodir=3D/usr/share/info --mandir=3D/usr/share/man --enable-libsystemd --with-pop=3Dyes --enable-locallisppath=3D/etc/emacs:/usr/local/share/emacs/26.1/site-lisp:= /usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/26.1/site-lisp:/usr/share= /emacs/site-lisp --with-sound=3Dalsa --without-gconf --with-mailutils --build x86_64-linux-gnu --prefix=3D/usr --sharedstatedir=3D/var/lib --libexecdir=3D/usr/lib --localstatedir=3D/var/lib --infodir=3D/usr/share/info --mandir=3D/usr/share/man --enable-libsystemd --with-pop=3Dyes --enable-locallisppath=3D/etc/emacs:/usr/local/share/emacs/26.1/site-lisp:= /usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/26.1/site-lisp:/usr/share= /emacs/site-lisp --with-sound=3Dalsa --without-gconf --with-mailutils --with-x=3Dyes --with-x-toolkit=3Dlucid --with-toolkit-scroll-bars --without-gsettings 'CFLAGS=3D-g -O2 -fdebug-prefix-map=3D/build/emacs-26.1+1=3D. -fstack-protector-strong -Wformat -Werror=3Dformat-security -Wall' 'CPPFLAGS=3D-Wdate-time -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=3D2' LDFLAGS=3D-Wl,-z,relro' Configured features: XAW3D XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG IMAGEMAGICK SOUND GPM DBUS NOTIFY ACL LIBSELINUX GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE M17N_FLT LIBOTF XFT ZLIB TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS LUCID X11 THREADS LIBSYSTEMD LCMS2 Important settings: value of $LC_COLLATE: C value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8 locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix Major mode: Fundamental Minor modes in effect: display-time-mode: t tooltip-mode: t global-eldoc-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t tool-bar-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t line-number-mode: t Load-path shadows: 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[99.230.51.196]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p20sm1298861ioj.63.2019.05.24.13.47.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Fri, 24 May 2019 13:47:08 -0700 (PDT) From: npostavs@gmail.com To: Bob Proulx Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 16:47:09 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> (Bob Proulx's message of "Fri, 24 May 2019 13:51:27 -0600") Message-ID: <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1.92 (windows-nt) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) Bob Proulx writes: > In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is > a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings > to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the > buffer. Your description of "flashing" suggests that maybe you some graphical glitching? When I see the eldoc text show up in the minibuffer there is nothing that I would call "flashing". The text just appears normally. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 24 17:35:36 2019 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 May 2019 21:35:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47490 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUHqg-0005GO-F3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 17:35:36 -0400 Received: from havoc.proulx.com ([96.88.95.61]:38572) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUHqe-0005GB-1R for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 17:35:32 -0400 Received: from joseki.proulx.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by havoc.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5DD0529; Fri, 24 May 2019 15:35:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hysteria.proulx.com (hysteria.proulx.com [192.168.230.119]) by joseki.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4713D21125; Fri, 24 May 2019 15:35:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: by hysteria.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3DEA22DC7D; Fri, 24 May 2019 15:35:25 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 15:35:25 -0600 From: Bob Proulx To: npostavs@gmail.com Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Message-ID: <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) npostavs@gmail.com wrote: > Bob Proulx writes: > > In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is > > a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings > > to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the > > buffer. > > Your description of "flashing" suggests that maybe you some graphical > glitching? When I see the eldoc text show up in the minibuffer there is > nothing that I would call "flashing". The text just appears normally. You misunderstand my words. I said "as the point moves around in the buffer". Which means that this is due to the point moving around the buffer. This is not a graphics artifact. To test this use text mode emacs in a text terminal to ensure that you will have no graphics artifacts from emacs. Let's assume an elisp construct. Put the cursor on the (defun line then move down to the doc string line. The second line in the below. (defun unfill-paragraph (&optional region) ; Thanks to Stefan Monnier "Takes a multi-line paragraph and makes it into a single line of text." (interactive (progn (barf-if-buffer-read-only) '(t))) (let ((fill-column (point-max)) ;; This would override `fill-column' if it's an integer. (emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column t)) (fill-paragraph nil region))) The following string appears in the minibuffer. The DOCSTRING word is highlighted. defun: (NAME ARGLIST &optional *DOCSTRING* DECL &rest BODY) C-n or Down-Arrow to move to the next line. This then appears in the minibuffer. defun: (NAME ARGLIST &optional DOCSTRING *DECL* &rest BODY) The DECL word is hightlighted. C-n again. defun: (NAME ARGLIST &optional DOCSTRING DECL &rest *BODY*) The BODY word is highlighted. C-n again. On the comment line. The minibuffer is cleared. No message there. C-n again. No message. C-n again. The flil-paragraph line. The following appears. The BODY word is highlighted. let: (VARLIST *BODY*...) C-n again. Blank line. The minibuffer is cleared. The above is a small snippet I selected for this example. But now do this through a large elisp file. With every C-n next-line movement the minibuffer is displaying or clearing a doc string hint. With every next-line movement the highlighted word in the minibuffer is moving from one word to another word. This is driving me crazy! This continous activity, changing, and flashing is extremely annoying. The minibuffer is where I expect to find useful editor feedback. When things happen there I look to see what it is telling me. Sometimes it is an error message. Sometimes it is direct dialog interaction such as for find-file. Sometimes it is simply information such as "Mark set". But with global-eldoc-mode enabled it is continously posting distractions in the minibuffer that I must look at, read and comprehend, and then ignore. This increases the editing workload. This increases use fatigue. Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode. Bob From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 24 18:38:38 2019 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 May 2019 22:38:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47553 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUIph-0006un-Tf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 18:38:38 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f44.google.com ([209.85.221.44]:35397) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUIpf-0006ua-M4 for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 18:38:36 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f44.google.com with SMTP id m3so11410246wrv.2 for <35887@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 24 May 2019 15:38:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bUyhIYjSSlzYbmcEM5JnhRDI7uUNcnG6VkqUhpkKA/I=; b=ZkNOBe07vQnPXRuxhf/rE8vOeXrFQddgMvC7nVFL4VWF+ptzKvyGHF7f+BEeSsHd1M sfApDuj+TW4o3YlrIggvwnXZdyjSvAQKVTmPo3L2CNHt2OU/obZkfDE9tlmMKa5Xzlqx +bqx1ftWyXDbJclxRUbYbzIBU6y892lUC6wYnyNTfP5cEjwBJBXwPRT6jOzmm6Re73ED myDflFoX8laAYdgHUBZU3gynCzKKSHYqzWENk3xYrYUAelURpDgxv824gmpD8KoNFVoO 86OXyQKJaEiSUz3T8g8p03tL9mbgRnQUi/px93zI43rrSN94eKs3kG4K8qKdMWvQV5IX pknA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=bUyhIYjSSlzYbmcEM5JnhRDI7uUNcnG6VkqUhpkKA/I=; b=qtJlHErIXx8kUjOpYX7soJuNgCFHHp/U8ltnkGWyMqyzZWNat7IQ46AQNUrGOMioW2 BHJJ3dVGfizEG/xbmtepEejd7eMe8Io5263aSRJSXiyvVXMV5jJ83QULjHvEB0DxwdaA FQyzrplbLlRJ1jhnWSs1nx7S1IhEGVKfYB+Q3vrj+ptQmUYYQDN3O7uL0/MOZ2kG5C/z CyrGOo9Gsr7+PkfZAsjzKGRGO9r3ZtVcfgSUVtZEYtEb7HGkb2xZQ42LsJTrdx62I9VD 3V/QwSPcaqh7AosdRiwd8SkP7b3iR7dhsSh00NX6m9i1ZGdz1Tzcmcj+YKQWT11+yZBZ E2sQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUz4kcdGbXqA+MqgVlOd28DynfZbR3jrdhaLz8K+rNVs7RxwzOW 1Q5I31w3XFmkvzut8WmylJFK7ZmB X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwgJVd/YW7Xv34obr9f0oWrQk52sA6MNZi24dtRuOefuWCG3t56mlmQVAwj1530vCIw8K+tLA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:9023:: with SMTP id h32mr52572175wrh.95.1558737509792; Fri, 24 May 2019 15:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([185.105.174.23]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id f7sm2532150wmc.26.2019.05.24.15.38.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 24 May 2019 15:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying To: Bob Proulx , npostavs@gmail.com References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 01:38:27 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) On 25.05.2019 0:35, Bob Proulx wrote: > Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode. So... do you not like ElDoc at all? AFAIK, it's a fairly popular feature. And Emacs 26.1 was released a year ago already. I think you're the first user to complain about this new default. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 24 19:24:50 2019 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 May 2019 23:24:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47618 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUJYP-00086P-NF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 19:24:49 -0400 Received: from havoc.proulx.com ([96.88.95.61]:40526) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUJYN-000868-Bf for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 19:24:48 -0400 Received: from joseki.proulx.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by havoc.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95EBD2B5; Fri, 24 May 2019 17:24:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hysteria.proulx.com (hysteria.proulx.com [192.168.230.119]) by joseki.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C04421145; Fri, 24 May 2019 17:24:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: by hysteria.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4ED1F2DC80; Fri, 24 May 2019 17:24:41 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 17:24:41 -0600 From: Bob Proulx To: Dmitry Gutov Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Message-ID: <20190524170443272636257@bob.proulx.com> References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Dmitry Gutov wrote: > Bob Proulx wrote: > > Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode. > > So... do you not like ElDoc at all? I haven't tried eldoc-mode so I don't know. I know that I do NOT like the over-exuberance of global-eldoc-mode on elisp files. It is global-eldoc-mode that I am talking about here. Normally when I want to look up the syntax of "if" or "let" as is the majority of the noise from global-eldoc-mode, I put the cursor on the function and then C-h f RET to look at the help for that function. It's quick and simple and gives even more information than the syntax hint given by global-eldoc-mode. And of course that works for the more interesting and complex functions one might need a reminder about too. > AFAIK, it's a fairly popular feature. And Emacs 26.1 was released a year ago > already. I think you're the first user to complain about this new default. I am one of the many users of the stable distributions. Today was the first day that I experienced this behavior. I don't usually make these types of bug reports. I usually just suck it up and silently increase the size of my .emacs file with the code to fix the problem. I did that again today because switching to fundamental-mode was even more annoying. But today I was annoyed enough to submit a bug report. I email'd a friend and he is still using emacs 24 so wasn't seeing this yet but thanked me for the information for when he must upgrade futher. I know that there are a large number of users in addition to me that is not leading on the bleeding edge builds and will eventually see this as yet another nuiscance that makes Emacs tedious to use. Yet another customization that is required before Emacs is usable. While many people live on the bleeding edge a large number of us like stability. I have 3846 unique packages installed on my desktop. Must I track the bleeding edge for all of them in order to keep up with development changes such as this? Bob From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 24 22:22:00 2019 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 May 2019 02:22:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47846 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUMJr-0004kD-Sn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 22:22:00 -0400 Received: from mail-it1-f181.google.com ([209.85.166.181]:40831) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUMJq-0004jq-Im for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 24 May 2019 22:21:59 -0400 Received: by mail-it1-f181.google.com with SMTP id h11so16483402itf.5 for <35887@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 24 May 2019 19:21:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=VwlB29+RqF10c8PT9J3SOOWTCJwp9+hgFH2yOBpd6FI=; b=tq0pIIx4VyyTCbkkmEnR23W9F7hPPI/c0UqUPJU825Yr1t7xt8k+hvSaBIpqM6fG/0 Sn1b6fehEb6lFWYJbs4SVpBijmbOSExFx2yc303BMPZ2caDR2It9M2/5uz0/qpleWHVK P32F6yZFKux3HtW/tfjCNuSoC4a7Y1AEDux72w9iusfunkyvXkBnRXVBt/IejTN0tWmY NnAqDpdpN6WtNB+I3d4yc4NvAXyJGyzdhRTS6VSFSnHo7RKmuePZz7x9hXq2ngAkbvaW +PL2/HqLGq763J5FFHTc27UC/kckMkYRNr9oTsaedybxAKQVIJr8dXU1t3qhGq1PPN4Y fbuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=VwlB29+RqF10c8PT9J3SOOWTCJwp9+hgFH2yOBpd6FI=; b=ZAPZM2/jBlmV20WzYS6JEE4FdvpvcrzBzIPpU8RVLNGvQ/KGensp17xtrpW3n1AB++ z5TH58GU1tlkMsuIyrAFNCW+/dLDvtaG7mAFbITW2GJT45PlPq9TkS9GR22SUqlITKey l7y5fxquYj9QUsN01AIcxcTsZewEVNSkF9MPfl7vJq8uP1rQrkjapHov6irLCbESROyI fDVc+2pmB8q6G6dGiOpn7hW5KAP19D3zSy3lexj6qRy3GoWb24uIN8hhPlIcbsIHIO6z oauNQW1sT3z1LbiTrdnFtR7ymTyfZWhQ48UxCNM+fJ0aFqiUuZIMmsfTQYarqBC05YgU DIgg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWXyoOU3EmRCvYqlOAyP/Z/on0t/Y4CxD89mjfVGie5k9Svn5fj B38ugorzO3riKHy0oH4BJSnTuGR5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzA8rz+RYjX3f+hhwu42Ex0hhFxDppVkpC/uS9UwP1D4veZ42K27WSO96nnjgTSZ9aI5rI/nw== X-Received: by 2002:a02:938f:: with SMTP id z15mr31132160jah.108.1558750912533; Fri, 24 May 2019 19:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minid (cbl-45-2-119-34.yyz.frontiernetworks.ca. [45.2.119.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x11sm1584947ion.10.2019.05.24.19.21.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Fri, 24 May 2019 19:21:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Noam Postavsky To: Bob Proulx Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 22:21:50 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> (Bob Proulx's message of "Fri, 24 May 2019 15:35:25 -0600") Message-ID: <871s0n9su9.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) Bob Proulx writes: > This is driving me crazy! This continous activity, changing, and > flashing is extremely annoying. > > The minibuffer is where I expect to find useful editor feedback. [...] > But with global-eldoc-mode enabled it is continously posting > distractions in the minibuffer that I must look at, read and > comprehend, and then ignore. This increases the editing workload. > This increases use fatigue. > > Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode. Hmm, well I like the current default. I find it annoying when I'm troubleshooting with 'emacs -Q' in older Emacs versions that eldoc isn't enabled. But I could live with having to turn it on in my init file. Not really sure on what basis we could decide on the default (sometimes people throw out the suggestion of polling the users, but I don't know of any practical way of getting a representative sample). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 25 02:20:03 2019 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 May 2019 06:20:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48002 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUQ2F-0003Jg-1h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 May 2019 02:20:03 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35902) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUQ2D-0003J8-AL for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 May 2019 02:20:01 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55283) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hUQ28-000772-6m; Sat, 25 May 2019 02:19:56 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3771 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hUQ27-0006Wj-Nv; Sat, 25 May 2019 02:19:56 -0400 Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 09:19:53 +0300 Message-Id: <83mujb3vjq.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Noam Postavsky In-reply-to: <871s0n9su9.fsf@gmail.com> (message from Noam Postavsky on Fri, 24 May 2019 22:21:50 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> <871s0n9su9.fsf@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org, bob@proulx.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Noam Postavsky > Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 22:21:50 -0400 > Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode. > > Hmm, well I like the current default. I find it handy when writing Lisp code, yes. > I find it annoying when I'm troubleshooting with 'emacs -Q' in older > Emacs versions that eldoc isn't enabled. I think "emacs -Q" should turn off both global-eldoc-mode and blink-cursor mode. But that's a different issue, IMO, which is worth a separate bug report. > Not really sure on what basis we could decide on the default (sometimes > people throw out the suggestion of polling the users, but I don't know > of any practical way of getting a representative sample). The only way to decide how many people find it annoying is to wait for more complaints. For now, we have only one, and that's not enough to decide to revert a feature. Sorry, Bob. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 25 04:00:24 2019 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 May 2019 08:00:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48080 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hURbL-00066n-SN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 May 2019 04:00:24 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:48151) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hURbJ-00066W-VR for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 May 2019 04:00:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1558771207; bh=LOkcpVQHzxDgNUIdybOLwEtBk5baWZBrFxdzM2zF+60=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=FIEL+u/iaMGPA990PfFIUBZfxrUj65UcdNk0JiwxDHcmGnhQdZot/MS535YHW/ux3 ix2OMu9QvUZMy1PrBQHecaoBqgq83MskIWvfDvOdawIlCyuI8oB4pHAs+S2YAszLN4 T8lfzZqTk5m26kb6ZOL/KXYxczMgD82VSueSOlZQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([213.162.73.253]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MzhnN-1gi6J545r7-00vc1u; Sat, 25 May 2019 10:00:07 +0200 Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying To: Bob Proulx , npostavs@gmail.com References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> From: martin rudalics Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 10:00:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: de-DE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:IPubcuz65O7mW1LNKZz5WQeyA2DB+AdVCKNBX3seCCk6Vcmj9vc TFEbHaOhExlLZxos29mrHrX3TgdYpJtxN5iglIrGRvwG3b9BpDNS74VP1nOBdiKrlL2OH6Q AoY56f91dAmZRgjpiKXoDeDyk1i1RFZLYtYoBY1u8ISK5C28viOAGH2xueg1lYQACfWuy6K 3hEZExWJqBTeGBjiuMyaw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:VPoYuU9JL9Q=:OzGDFrOBz6EUTPtmK4ybK1 ICdJ2d4Nrat2oqKJYpETqJzPUF1yCxsbg9wfqHP15okWNzkJazLyw8Hm9DgfH4NS9HOc6352Q 85oN+eF/cMLwnMxnZL+3+MJitcuZ64LpsB58Ssx+Qn4w1eNzDNrW8Ovm8dOrXWqi11yb04g6w mBmtzuhocMpLBtUEzDS7Gbs84c6yVXjBbKvQ/o1WVtVuB+Md4Ni2saMQ/vWaDEKgEdwVyJXn6 t/kwyE18Rq3pNI7HzZPRQkGoZ5wXdH/mrbrBeF+Hkgr1Q5ktajmFB4B11t1dK0fnZ/V7Yq3Ek KszUxJV73hfvXsEKstOLXHTtq6C73eHA0ui0ghmEIftGZuVVhvRE4NPWOOSC0tzGKlFmAuTDZ jle/+x3b6JqgRBGgDvfH4+LT4c5a63YSanP8poHUgwd/XK2/jYuzAH3hwml/F8MeWX2WJpGPz Sf8oO0RCmZJ40Xh6C0C+gt0JdMO+GdlWL0piSBniMwLSrflVhmWZt7RbJDC/smdrNyREnASpL Esrvi56l/iEDUNGy3RAUqWDWZFlGtkncT4EufhvDD1++FeDKBJi5bEEHitfcY2+luHW/JQd0v fnkyq57OjukwRNWd7y5d6UE+YqbsMW0LGKdPpMn+uaXERFxqasvptgPf+NI58UlG9iHDKy0/+ Xgcvc0rO4iJOR4bcGw3gZhHygRu3wa5hUgiu7MNoCrFzkflBClaJLKkQGibDagRGfS794brWq gLNt4ibzApCa8Dsl7dGqHneMxkADG9SHOoI5uKYGfoqyF1ySpNE3/x61QvTxAwC5RMawvl2JA q97gvulGLrsGVhrl+90/hF2spMNWSnuGMGCvRZrDT0uTOCNvR++mvILCmvDFWRtDuySqixjQb HHQDomFe+BO++yVsylL7rGDczmF4zFkXc39uwjmMQ7aiPtDdyP2nG/a1CW/nMfFasxardtS/7 6S5pAqE3aE+DHsq5IkGnbDG9/g9+7T9ngFgGM/mgyi06q41VodB1m X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > The minibuffer is where I expect to find useful editor feedback. When= > things happen there I look to see what it is telling me. Sometimes it= > is an error message. Sometimes it is direct dialog interaction such > as for find-file. Sometimes it is simply information such as "Mark > set". But with global-eldoc-mode enabled it is continously posting > distractions in the minibuffer that I must look at, read and > comprehend, and then ignore. This increases the editing workload. > This increases use fatigue. I find error messages like "Beginning of buffer" (and the accompanying beep) and informative messages like "Mark set" much more annoying. What's worse: I see no practical way to turn these off which means that I have to decide whether I want to use the mouse-wheel to scroll an Emacs buffer or to switch off my loudspeakers. And obviously the echo area and the *Messages* buffer get crowded with these completely useless (for me) informations. So while I agree with you that =E2=80=98global-eldoc-mode=E2=80=99 should= never have been enabled by default, I consider it a minor annoyance compared to the ones I described above. At least you've found out how to turn it off. martin From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 26 07:51:52 2019 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2019 11:51:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50448 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUrgu-0002Gx-5w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 07:51:52 -0400 Received: from mail-ed1-f68.google.com ([209.85.208.68]:45031) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUrgr-0002Gh-6e for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 07:51:50 -0400 Received: by mail-ed1-f68.google.com with SMTP id b8so22013837edm.11 for <35887@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 26 May 2019 04:51:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tcd-ie.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=g2+5c8oxmUESM/W9VRtbxlYgikMS6f8v3uprXki4h1Q=; b=vOM2NL4VkvY6qpNTOZkXsJjT402RCov1FW0OYFCZQlq2Is+qCn/PbxuKSUa5TXLGR1 YN+mj7sFA3XaPPXnwCcrUf/hNDCkFtsMKbpOdH99uEuPkl/7gmtWeoDuPYNPu0uRvVMP UpCLXwIyZrOuCS4jlj3L8wOJnMrRKK/9HMz29v6YSMkHqBHxJ9m+IMa7lAqifgCe1VqQ 8fNH/+mZcvHr++q3d9ZWjEN9Vfc9EngaIA7WJtO+5iW4BOlx/kfgEJNlu+grpcYIqBEv YH9tDUZ7098gFdINjy+E3vz29OxaXX045FWl+NmEC7e8THBmzSFV4Cz/kI8VUU/8l8Nc zG6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=g2+5c8oxmUESM/W9VRtbxlYgikMS6f8v3uprXki4h1Q=; b=g/Ck03YpMxyfte4Gt0Tq/ffXzTY2HzF7yAd8GadMcxRso3qV8eQCC7g/OYymBDYFUX JhTLEPO36o9bpt8BiZwV4WZp7Cnynod9mkPxf7TsE0rlLJzketVaWo58ZbVndfc5+a7x dyalW43nWS7inoKk/9PN6f/uadAKFf9AZuo1t12kp8bxhM7ZqLFC1Amzmo99UamaEi17 0lJWsdItdimZcQR4JdSlSH+ICyHoMegMJu/HiQxcISKowrrb6FIDX/BDZrzmkejc2es2 wv9A/VYvPA6bA6hNZcVYeMUBe1skQmCVm/48xszhFWwZO5vn0ykse12aa8EVVt+uIb4y NF4g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVu5qx3eLtbWfsttPvbnxj8mrC9XQvo0z0ABKGQngtqewaRM+Wh nQCqYadO/s2G9yJJJSnu6A8T7Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwigMYTBISfEsw3hGjoC9Szq8sPolCjLf5ewGLgbwfO/FwyTuBlLT10FUeKY/8T1rjz/t8bzA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:41c8:: with SMTP id g8mr76837091ejl.131.1558871503052; Sun, 26 May 2019 04:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2a02:8084:20e2:c380:8cad:ae29:555d:852d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m12sm1214973ejr.19.2019.05.26.04.51.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 26 May 2019 04:51:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> <871s0n9su9.fsf@gmail.com> <83mujb3vjq.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 12:51:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83mujb3vjq.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 25 May 2019 09:19:53 +0300") Message-ID: <87h89h3036.fsf@tcd.ie> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org, Noam Postavsky , bob@proulx.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Noam Postavsky >> Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 22:21:50 -0400 >> Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org >> >> > Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode. >> >> Hmm, well I like the current default. > > I find it handy when writing Lisp code, yes. > >> I find it annoying when I'm troubleshooting with 'emacs -Q' in older >> Emacs versions that eldoc isn't enabled. > > I think "emacs -Q" should turn off both global-eldoc-mode and > blink-cursor mode. But that's a different issue, IMO, which is worth > a separate bug report. +1 on both counts. -- Basil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 26 23:23:37 2019 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2019 03:23:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52351 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hV6Eb-00079Y-2l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 23:23:37 -0400 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:41944) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hV6EW-00079B-9s for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 23:23:35 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x4R3J4OI044906; Mon, 27 May 2019 03:23:24 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=iU/sl78ODhNBssVAYiVrMvMr+AWzj51LfQPRCfkzZ6g=; b=lqkOpimnElRhVvt48Su7wECpRD88kOY9le2Bu8Wp8sFbuKb90fr7xVS7B73PLouqL+gx eeLzlizfwCXdcv4qKbsrd6CwQTp/aUtjvzAL0L9w78kJJnOQw4Xbmaz7y9Lv5MdosRbk 3eLtT75C79ovLVbrnlTjegbxsODi3RGV289b3pYTZDTdFCE46JgvZOJmA7Rqw1Ny3z1u 6HWccO6XO/5RGwKYnIk/eCqd2lF1drgXT4u4lW/aYVSiid0UKKxn8LfLqMvieQjYloKr iRLO6YlgYETQZO0vMpXxofd6IXlZA4ohWrMPGOg1gXdCHviI6TYwTwkSaHq52rMNNoaO 3g== Received: from userp3030.oracle.com (userp3030.oracle.com [156.151.31.80]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2spw4t3ucp-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 27 May 2019 03:23:24 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x4R3NFni112245; Mon, 27 May 2019 03:23:23 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2sqjjn7dgj-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 27 May 2019 03:23:23 +0000 Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id x4R3NIQo024924; Mon, 27 May 2019 03:23:20 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <91e1307e-9278-49ee-8463-28a7f36fb026@default> Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 20:23:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Bob Proulx , 35887@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> In-Reply-To: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4849.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9269 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=580 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1905270021 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9269 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=619 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1905270021 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Please revert this. Users that wish it are free to enable it. Absolutely. +1. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 27 16:31:43 2019 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2019 20:31:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54270 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hVMHX-0000jt-8s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 May 2019 16:31:43 -0400 Received: from goldenrod.birch.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.209.74]:20907) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hVMHV-0000jl-8Z for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 May 2019 16:31:42 -0400 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jurta@jurta.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08BBE1A1C72; Mon, 27 May 2019 20:31:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a50.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-38-146.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.38.146]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AF4C71A1DE0; Mon, 27 May 2019 20:31:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jurta@jurta.org Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a50.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.17.2); Mon, 27 May 2019 20:31:39 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|jurta@jurta.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Oafish-Invention: 314250c515183bec_1558989099861_1069138984 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1558989099861:683806657 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1558989099861 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a50.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a50.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E7CA83283; Mon, 27 May 2019 13:31:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=linkov.net; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=linkov.net; bh=eeFKpQ YxQhSKRq50SyTyu6l8//o=; b=lDRSb5TFUiHe7ZvoMTAC+DreFZ/kTryJvNmJ0f 4XHfbKwxu1qopzhzhBhJm6PzcH+TaJ4HSw+TRq9Se/LnNrbGRU0IxNwuaN33zHAR awFLVOkcdFqEi3Yd95mkLDhmCC0qMS9qYxIRQoLMwoN49/Bupf2ZBDfRgatOBD2O uH5T0= Received: from mail.jurta.org (m91-129-96-73.cust.tele2.ee [91.129.96.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jurta@jurta.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a50.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 82CBF832A5; Mon, 27 May 2019 13:31:33 -0700 (PDT) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a50 From: Juri Linkov To: martin rudalics Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Organization: LINKOV.NET References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 23:30:56 +0300 In-Reply-To: (martin rudalics's message of "Sat, 25 May 2019 10:00:02 +0200") Message-ID: <87woibbpxb.fsf@mail.linkov.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduuddruddvfedgudejucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpffftgfetoffjqffuvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephffvufhofhffjgfkfgggtgfgsehtkeertddtreejnecuhfhrohhmpefluhhrihcunfhinhhkohhvuceojhhurhhisehlihhnkhhovhdrnhgvtheqnecukfhppeeluddruddvledrleeirdejfeenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghlohepmhgrihhlrdhjuhhrthgrrdhorhhgpdhinhgvthepledurdduvdelrdeliedrjeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpefluhhrihcunfhinhhkohhvuceojhhurhhisehlihhnkhhovhdrnhgvtheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepjhhurhhisehlihhnkhhovhdrnhgvthdpnhhrtghpthhtoheprhhuuggrlhhitghssehgmhigrdgrthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@gmail.com, Bob Proulx X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> The minibuffer is where I expect to find useful editor feedback. When >> things happen there I look to see what it is telling me. Sometimes it >> is an error message. Sometimes it is direct dialog interaction such >> as for find-file. Sometimes it is simply information such as "Mark >> set". But with global-eldoc-mode enabled it is continously posting >> distractions in the minibuffer that I must look at, read and >> comprehend, and then ignore. This increases the editing workload. >> This increases use fatigue. > > I find error messages like "Beginning of buffer" (and the accompanying > beep) and informative messages like "Mark set" much more annoying. > What's worse: I see no practical way to turn these off which means > that I have to decide whether I want to use the mouse-wheel to scroll > an Emacs buffer or to switch off my loudspeakers. And obviously the > echo area and the *Messages* buffer get crowded with these completely > useless (for me) informations. Why customizing inhibit-message to t doesn't inhibit these messages? > So while I agree with you that =E2=80=98global-eldoc-mode=E2=80=99 shou= ld never have > been enabled by default, I consider it a minor annoyance compared to > the ones I described above. At least you've found out how to turn it > off. I turn =E2=80=98global-eldoc-mode=E2=80=99 off too, but I think it should= be enabled by default to demonstrate to newbies that Emacs has the same feature that their IDEs have. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 27 18:31:49 2019 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2019 22:31:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54453 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hVO9l-0005r6-0M for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 May 2019 18:31:49 -0400 Received: from aserp2130.oracle.com ([141.146.126.79]:33568) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hVO9i-0005qs-Oe for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 27 May 2019 18:31:47 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x4RMOxu8108791; Mon, 27 May 2019 22:31:40 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=IhFQIYOwalPRpVAgjLtcQX7IiAu9QYaUIOLdceGFO9Q=; b=q0QWPCBrKQRjLkuiHZBuKEd2MpMMgU/0j3pE6ZcAxT4a45itHsAcslWBcV9/+QqTOyrJ EDwWdZjSHh1XjryLyZzu889a1LTwzZKRa59IglJJfJBybcvbpsx4O5YwN76XMorTFiQM Ig1bOeXyxHQDL7K/0gNPGVRVEd0cSD5RYTwLuaZCp8mW7/WoEXrNd/CwBCZ73tgL57/j kEKT64LEm0jXOxANaQuc2H7BsmrtWhqfzJxezCk9WSVR2S0gxUypvuM/GA9FrKrWPNfz GM2FEJJLCoTU0ukTjtyFNWV1miSymwQhv9AhDJjAR8YlDm8y10lu2vMRrqMQpSjTGilN /g== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by aserp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2spu7d7x7w-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 27 May 2019 22:31:40 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x4RMUIkw103400; Mon, 27 May 2019 22:31:39 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2sqh72ts93-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 27 May 2019 22:31:39 +0000 Received: from abhmp0012.oracle.com (abhmp0012.oracle.com [141.146.116.18]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id x4RMVYlF000316; Mon, 27 May 2019 22:31:34 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <9d84f6c2-a319-495d-a967-25c1c66cee5d@default> Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 15:31:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Juri Linkov , martin rudalics Subject: RE: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> <87woibbpxb.fsf@mail.linkov.net> In-Reply-To: <87woibbpxb.fsf@mail.linkov.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4849.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9270 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=777 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1905270158 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9270 signatures=668687 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=811 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1905270158 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@gmail.com, Bob Proulx X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > I turn =E2=80=98global-eldoc-mode=E2=80=99 off too, but I think it should= be enabled > by default to demonstrate to newbies that Emacs has the same feature > that their IDEs have. Fair enough. But on the flip side, better that a newbie should learn, early, that there is much more to Emacs than first meets the eye. And learn, early on, how to discover for herself such non-default features. I disagree, in general (yes, abstractly, and such things should really be decided mostly case by case), with the idea of showing things initially just to be sure users notice them. That's not a strong reason. We sometimes hear it espoused also as a reason for turning on some shiny new behavior: so users will notice it. Not a great reason, on its own. We have NEWS for that (and Sacha's tangents newsletter and... ___ As for discoverability (a larger question) - 1. There's little substitute now for a newbie learning the help keys (`C-h`...) at the outset. 2. Menus can help. 3. Google etc. help (word-of-mouth in our era). 4. But Emacs could offer more aids to discoverability. Instead of turning things on by default so users can easily see they exist, we'd be better off adding more discovery help. (Emacs is, after all, the self-documenting editor.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 28 11:54:44 2019 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 May 2019 15:54:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56917 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hVeR2-00046Q-M7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 28 May 2019 11:54:44 -0400 Received: from mail-ed1-f65.google.com ([209.85.208.65]:34798) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hVeR0-00046A-52 for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 28 May 2019 11:54:43 -0400 Received: by mail-ed1-f65.google.com with SMTP id p27so32551644eda.1 for <35887@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 28 May 2019 08:54:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tcd-ie.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QRfjRlUT2aMTclKSigztj5vUnWOosjXD12ay+i0QAek=; b=joV0Dg0ezJuBtZXhmzeVLGSapAgCScHZr0e/GzFSmsCacd6n8Nnk8nJi4rY0UYkvZz bZYkBRiBOwCugYW47cz0GV+wrT3SQjtZzXnE94X7NDQbHNyub+MZHrvvDhMsKXjMq1uY f2YCsyQ/D684ViLnsfShTpJw69iFlZp64gC4eqHUFaGredza2H5WQeZ2aBvMFf6IzHmc r/wzLQXi6OOoFubr9ly3oh3TrCNGupZtoDJMCe84+jI3gb2UmC9C8XEpbIkQxYTcRR1Q cIfIE1lLC2/tj7K/jVFMpGTwK6GSRaRY7Zy8sa3hVC4Iw1zaMxMcbwaekgQ5MTiWTcII C5oA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QRfjRlUT2aMTclKSigztj5vUnWOosjXD12ay+i0QAek=; b=sF4sFPB4ToQyONmMy/moHOHi9can0wjZzVFLAX8YKrW5ayHMWdMUJQ7eCIaku+5lW0 ltyPZdM6wQK7YLvxbumXeH3gG00xE83X9QE4VOjhXSPqXHYXLjKrvCZ+iDtoqj3uACxj mxkfMXGT8nl2m1e2vA4dZbiVW0DelLFtG7zxj8nQEL2d2EEyPxZgwvbxO1HA90SiNw2H jjzlUPsi9X15sHZ3VOfNRg1TiL2NVPojeYM13NU1ssdJ8CxIdY8NDxfB19sXH6t+Qx0p t2vx0vkjfleR9lKyw3RdsFp7uFWu7VayBYlJIzeJotT6a1dIraPWjSqUhg92JR5XPAk/ 61xA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVOmp77AjAl0WDcQxLezRZx7t677ZGeMy0XNftK0QbPuQUna/LZ L1fVUEXiMrNZbANL8sf21p9Lhg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwgBM4dEmR2aqPsLgX0PgVcswKrmCHEudkY46xQggcpMRHmniYJC2Gb2OwOlK/fb5RsZP+F4g== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:90c6:: with SMTP id v6mr79402411ejw.111.1559058874236; Tue, 28 May 2019 08:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2a02:8084:20e2:c380:8cad:ae29:555d:852d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u13sm620665eds.4.2019.05.28.08.54.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 28 May 2019 08:54:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> <87woibbpxb.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <9d84f6c2-a319-495d-a967-25c1c66cee5d@default> Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 16:54:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: <9d84f6c2-a319-495d-a967-25c1c66cee5d@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 27 May 2019 15:31:33 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87sgsy1snc.fsf@tcd.ie> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: martin rudalics , 35887@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@gmail.com, Bob Proulx , Juri Linkov X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) Drew Adams writes: >> I turn =E2=80=98global-eldoc-mode=E2=80=99 off too, but I think it shoul= d be enabled >> by default to demonstrate to newbies that Emacs has the same feature >> that their IDEs have. > > Fair enough. But on the flip side, better that a > newbie should learn, early, that there is much more > to Emacs than first meets the eye. And learn, early > on, how to discover for herself such non-default > features. > > I disagree, in general (yes, abstractly, and such > things should really be decided mostly case by case), > with the idea of showing things initially just to be > sure users notice them. > > That's not a strong reason. We sometimes hear it > espoused also as a reason for turning on some shiny > new behavior: so users will notice it. Not a great > reason, on its own. We have NEWS for that (and > Sacha's tangents newsletter and... I'm not sure if the following philosophy is documented anywhere, but my personal impression is that it is considered more Emacs-y to default to disabling most shiny features, lest they come across as annoying or intrusive, and let each user pick and mix what they like. I agree with that, so I sympathise with the annoyance of enabling global-eldoc-mode by default, but in this case I feel like that ship has already sailed, and that global-eldoc-mode is useful enough in the general case that it might be worse to disable it again at this point. --=20 Basil From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jun 04 04:26:34 2019 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jun 2019 08:26:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43858 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hY4mA-0000JP-0W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jun 2019 04:26:34 -0400 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.18]:60955) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hY4m7-0000J9-88 for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jun 2019 04:26:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1559636785; bh=620gQvI4lAkb0IlDAl2kIpgx2KaLubkjw6mxYj1GNfw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=WDUilaMomFDU5mUCFOcy54mhpSdWVHI7fSGF8lHCPHFux6idz+YxYK81HeIXpQh6N 2WdfTn7lIX1FFp+TnDb95QKD3v5rl8kr/esuwbLnyroyGRkiaTqaHe7e8yhjpNt4UP IWhQOQOKkZwUtzcW5KDrlLWbNTttbi6B+3W2pAz4= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.1.101] ([212.95.5.222]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx001 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LmK3e-1gySxN1xq6-00ZtoX; Tue, 04 Jun 2019 10:21:07 +0200 Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying To: Juri Linkov References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> <87woibbpxb.fsf@mail.linkov.net> From: martin rudalics Message-ID: <2f351f60-2fbd-3ea5-1f4d-24aec7871bf3@gmx.at> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 10:21:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87woibbpxb.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: de-DE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:eMT5YUrqEVaeLw/aevhbELzq4x7fWXY2vDz278+9a4QFDtd3QSl 9Ne9cXI1+o0XurViwmR1o5M4AdQh2BaHLmnymHX5yogRvoxhO6wzO/1PMo8wp49Eo7FMG7I MbeUNybrPEH0Z0t9FCIfZ2KEFselz4LmtVZUDPOw7ffXHEDXVVXW5an8RbBZnuqUKAo/i/I H66TnieSYsrxCXyn5dIDA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:W5i59Lfz6mI=:hVWB5Vvk1QO7CBjuv2E7No rAvoRCck7hC+GFdpKJxG/9wXd0S949Trc6+fRCYtVwdJRoNLs4E1kNJwu+d2K3ggXeuVXPqGX +qGHDiyuUpXvNCsEfWufNKalSccWysCmZ7YqqSp5cP/nF8zXDbk48zqx8Nb1MF6CyD/lY2lC8 ZrjaqnAsyND3ZUZ+5Le+1i+R8mgnN4Z+E2UM2Ai8KuXjFwnqAV9oVDT9qgrl2aZKtSmYJ67sf oL+x0AVu/VIyhuULoC3+pgIRMXQHrzIZsjQBXH/5aEAgq8QOTgUVDmOYFphHnOj4Z4gD8ti/4 p78R18M/5whttLYFyLVNOAGOGMR7W4zjGanMaLz3BRShN4Vl5n90K2UHSEOEvRUF+53cwhqrP zG4dxNDOnRWRdnhpiX9VZq4AMS1vXj0+et8CNUhOQLVXf+ZlLwgHJlLbRqk34HCyy/i3k7FRj VTuIJNIF4naDvbAndQZxWrvMXEzAbUoHh+yCBNXyY0zChDJrP/GF+8ikkm9lOa+m/qx8nS9e6 LAF5jSj7vD+F3vUz0DwXouhVFWBZmX17IeMBU9cKff+TA/3KQpiu91VMId8WWP9mBMCbfhcuq 0WSuX1Uto0goyvMwMre4zvLZCWknZRcI36n9o1GTmnjikq0/xss/VrThgrhzfgRR0NaL8y0c9 xakD584IdQukaU7TA5z2H73z4OrzlGt/wqLTHTkYuQf+1ZFqxZ0wjQWDkC/YgWUTjjWDWRRLR buQJSFiQnFItNfzeShQoDguNohBjlLs2FcthTxyDbViat8+qKTfQjY5YYNqQexgnCmjrj5OOt qgDhLHwiAaXf0znGzwXwBPRlU68VG1LKMF+mWE3IAGT//5V89VZV81aSQ4MkK4dTBt0WgOpmW uR+/Kvn9F5Q/jyHkOb6uZD+aR0FT2zeLpzI5lEgeusUzbXzYZ+LV1eCuMcVaBGoBETsXwXdra AaHSeQlfrbz4oiCMUxDnuZ9d0lTP8fdp1PVHDWxpY0VJH0C+GNlcw X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@gmail.com, Bob Proulx X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> I find error messages like "Beginning of buffer" (and the accompanying >> beep) and informative messages like "Mark set" much more annoying. >> What's worse: I see no practical way to turn these off which means >> that I have to decide whether I want to use the mouse-wheel to scroll >> an Emacs buffer or to switch off my loudspeakers. And obviously the >> echo area and the *Messages* buffer get crowded with these completely >> useless (for me) informations. > > Why customizing inhibit-message to t doesn't inhibit these messages? Do you mean to bind that variable around all calls that I find annoying? It would take me days to identify them, write the functions and the bindings ... Anyway. Would you consider an application like Firefox operational if you launch it for the first time in your live, spin your mouse-wheel to find out whether there's something below the part you see on your screen and get a bell ringing and the information that you are at the end of a thing called "buffer"? Or that after selecting some text with the mouse you just have "Mark set"? I think that people need strong nerves to survive their first use of Emacs. But maybe that's the idea, only the fittest survive ... martin From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Jun 04 09:30:52 2019 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Jun 2019 13:30:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44326 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hY9Wd-0008Bh-MH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jun 2019 09:30:51 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f50.google.com ([209.85.221.50]:32975) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hY9Wb-0008BS-OM for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 04 Jun 2019 09:30:50 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f50.google.com with SMTP id n9so3410444wru.0 for <35887@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 04 Jun 2019 06:30:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9thxBvXF+Pas/ePVjTFrl08WyxMuTuC7lD0xZDAytb4=; b=vN9qQAswRGdXwe5cmHLhdCXdWQiJaexAQbpiUgeJ4E4TmA4PQ1foeZwzMLMLqpha1Q rEAJ8g7dxoWVxYSra/J1E0tQ/Vx96zbg54agbNoZRwY8anFv8b8MamXnO783a07Y1tGV KMr9T3VlyllChtqJF7PCdXTAfAcl3mbLcp1g7Hsx9cgsKN7eZa3FWHiF6esVfOfn0Bed uDDUev6wtjGocbB2AlsiZtuOyWOC8N7BW0U2JzxAEde8UUTS+dqh5llcDzpJH/UbGXz+ qyIoh783thjaXOSPzeB+LOlQuEYdPvIaV5pjPAtX2s0hhyYBDdFRNdDopUPJ9dbX8SWi icOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9thxBvXF+Pas/ePVjTFrl08WyxMuTuC7lD0xZDAytb4=; b=V9G/CX2Uy5LwZaPTvtXpNgJnjpTkXnxq3TaD3jD6o0U1T+Wgu77ISTz0Y25BMs+U8j gShMXP1+gbW1x6cPWlG50FTGILwgF2jHlWapycykfN54imODvhe8GzqrwHwnBCU14IXp DopcklLiSUFhrkedgMnIFpPkE+f1Q6SuHvs8GwsZO5kBrrB+CCt8tFgvWSczQbuU6IcR wdDYyWxFNybCbdlNbThZMyXfqyGLZuIbh6Sa7skFckeYKEtcAc5bl2PfxvKO8U0fpGHC JXPkLvOmPkqdQ33LsuYowW/cpRI9c8yB2x5qf4nQYAqrMXQVB2+e6OEyixNg+9ZOyADM GJqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXz5wvmbCGlZyWl00Czpl7eR5yCqEC6D45IyiAOieL0aywb1kKB kBxcquKmWSrk8Oxd8aq+m50= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwb3hlXQkvvZvzY2YwaJ12x/ZpCJiK1gtR+C/AJ5KCmNm1gMA1ft/szWjnB3weiRkp9SJlLww== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4f0b:: with SMTP id c11mr6667410wru.35.1559655043874; Tue, 04 Jun 2019 06:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.195] ([109.110.245.170]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 88sm21649693wrl.68.2019.06.04.06.30.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Jun 2019 06:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying To: martin rudalics , Juri Linkov References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> <87woibbpxb.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <2f351f60-2fbd-3ea5-1f4d-24aec7871bf3@gmx.at> From: Dmitry Gutov Message-ID: <1f8fc8bc-5858-c95e-f876-4020f9f43593@yandex.ru> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 16:30:35 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2f351f60-2fbd-3ea5-1f4d-24aec7871bf3@gmx.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@gmail.com, Bob Proulx X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 04.06.2019 11:21, martin rudalics wrote: > Would you consider an application like Firefox operational if > you launch it for the first time in your live, spin your mouse-wheel > to find out whether there's something below the part you see on your > screen and get a bell ringing and the information that you are at the > end of a thing called "buffer"?  Or that after selecting some text > with the mouse you just have "Mark set"? It almost feels like the general approach for a long time has been to compensate the general "clunkiness" (or at least peculiarity) of some UI corners with extra verbosity. It's like the program is saying "it's okay if we're doing unusual things, but we'll tell you everything we're doing along the way". I don't find it jarring myself, but we could probably do better. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jun 05 17:07:16 2019 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Jun 2019 21:07:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48310 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hYd7s-0006D4-Ci for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2019 17:07:16 -0400 Received: from basenji.apple.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.208.12]:31414) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hYd7p-0006Ct-PX for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 05 Jun 2019 17:07:14 -0400 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jurta@jurta.org Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50BB82262B; Wed, 5 Jun 2019 21:07:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a5.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-28-110.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.28.110]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B3E51224F8; Wed, 5 Jun 2019 21:07:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|jurta@jurta.org Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a5.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.17.2); Wed, 05 Jun 2019 21:07:12 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|jurta@jurta.org X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Snatch-Stop: 7fade8273d02f507_1559768832142_167323808 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1559768832142:3288125841 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1559768832142 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a5.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a5.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A89917F6E6; Wed, 5 Jun 2019 14:07:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=linkov.net; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=linkov.net; bh=wob88Y jgjR7PWd8y5hMY5+Z/kP4=; b=K3f5YbiNnzXRkAajiZrWgAekelF5Ak+l4y4hNd UwFGrxXSxCsZz+N2x+i2Mo86mS4x7mnJ/dpqnJPurNb2FXOfNbVzHOx0QS26lLR2 ENgNN2tAZknYmJtoNuAiM1S4ZsTe0kd4pEIAp8CBXRvoURlKUbvABhHx/nrcmtZR s5suc= Received: from mail.jurta.org (m91-129-96-73.cust.tele2.ee [91.129.96.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jurta@jurta.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a5.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C9C607F6DC; Wed, 5 Jun 2019 14:07:02 -0700 (PDT) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a5 From: Juri Linkov To: Dmitry Gutov Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Organization: LINKOV.NET References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <85tvdjd1gy.fsf@gmail.com> <20190524151617874644844@bob.proulx.com> <87woibbpxb.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <2f351f60-2fbd-3ea5-1f4d-24aec7871bf3@gmx.at> <1f8fc8bc-5858-c95e-f876-4020f9f43593@yandex.ru> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2019 00:06:22 +0300 In-Reply-To: <1f8fc8bc-5858-c95e-f876-4020f9f43593@yandex.ru> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Tue, 4 Jun 2019 16:30:35 +0300") Message-ID: <87a7evivxt.fsf@mail.linkov.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduuddrudegvddgudeitdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpefhvffuohhfffgjkfgfgggtgfesthekredttderudenucfhrhhomheplfhurhhiucfnihhnkhhovhcuoehjuhhriheslhhinhhkohhvrdhnvghtqeenucfkphepledurdduvdelrdeliedrjeefnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphdphhgvlhhopehmrghilhdrjhhurhhtrgdrohhrghdpihhnvghtpeeluddruddvledrleeirdejfedprhgvthhurhhnqdhprghthheplfhurhhiucfnihhnkhhovhcuoehjuhhriheslhhinhhkohhvrdhnvghtqedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehjuhhriheslhhinhhkohhvrdhnvghtpdhnrhgtphhtthhopegughhuthhovheshigrnhguvgigrdhruhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: martin rudalics , 35887@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@gmail.com, Bob Proulx X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> Would you consider an application like Firefox operational if >> you launch it for the first time in your live, spin your mouse-wheel >> to find out whether there's something below the part you see on your >> screen and get a bell ringing and the information that you are at the >> end of a thing called "buffer"?=A0 Or that after selecting some text >> with the mouse you just have "Mark set"? > > It almost feels like the general approach for a long time has been to > compensate the general "clunkiness" (or at least peculiarity) of some U= I > corners with extra verbosity. > > It's like the program is saying "it's okay if we're doing unusual thing= s, > but we'll tell you everything we're doing along the way". > > I don't find it jarring myself, but we could probably do better. Sometimes such verbosity is justified. For example, when on exiting Isearch displays a reminder "Mark saved where search started". From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 16 06:16:14 2020 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Aug 2020 10:16:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56893 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k7Fi2-0007iY-Kg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 06:16:14 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-f181.google.com ([209.85.219.181]:46690) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k7Fhy-0007iF-6t for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 06:16:14 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f181.google.com with SMTP id x10so7731349ybj.13 for <35887@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 03:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TaeoEZtYUHNtw4Ncr+/LdL01lPKYYPsz2PKPz1FY9g0=; b=OLViPPoXZABwk5/DFu7OJ8m85KFhDFQAkfRl40wceqOeifUeg8DD1I+T3hIxiWgnYQ bA4/l3lNpaBiTkpFXpT63jXT5M6feHRUSjdgYyA0RfbW+h2mH5bbBgPqodaqnX/M1T0u 7D2VBcTrVj01ZNhGfB6qbIR6DGZKo/I9Y2GOGyBzJpCRi9Y08N84YAK/Sj6Qdptzhfyz xndFucRsz6g1n704tbsjzsc7h19SUDVFoovURvv97P7ulZHfIk7bAUXWSqUxgLAUGmBb LEP9GEn3n+bylHC0XovxD+bD7nba2C3nk0QKBf43+ORIDuLIbNvq/MWJBUIWZrW1KdWI lOBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530iiViTROm2Bh80F730P+/zFnQjYj8YIaR/9OlxCn4JJMsAZM+F V4EmwfyaRr2CWUDQEIIRp9M+RLKFACnnQPkM71bu0sdJufs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwVZ/jbc4RG9+3aXidxNBW6bGSkfGgi286wM1gwt63DptVIubWiIsXP0a1c6smDT7rSMwMtSVM3IVwaoimeqT4= X-Received: by 2002:a25:b290:: with SMTP id k16mr13709977ybj.389.1597572964553; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 03:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 03:16:03 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> (Bob Proulx's message of "Fri, 24 May 2019 13:51:27 -0600") References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 03:16:03 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying To: Bob Proulx Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/) Bob Proulx writes: > In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is > a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings > to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the > buffer. > > Please revert this. This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to disable it for those that really don't like it. I therefore propose to close this as wontfix. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 16 10:32:55 2020 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Aug 2020 14:32:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58114 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k7JiM-0008QK-3W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:32:55 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:45036) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k7JiJ-0008Q6-IF for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:32:48 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 07GERrIB002349; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 14:32:41 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=34OMzJXUDyelY+1BLqsEtFhe332rAz7TU+w23VYaFuM=; b=nchhGzDSAWU/+HKZlOoZd56wYjPH/igPGngLq6VDqmSnViCU9Skz3r1CiEmzZBEPHdPE UVMcl9Gf+cL/YcLIQ0H/rKzNUdotXyrkMzccBnGNJtYKyTVBfmXJgCec4/dyJy5CfFdV 6J1qYkpdnQ6MEtV4IxCgIqRTxH8IA12b2RAg9Ml222MN74VPQ8m6nU5aHTvDwOJUro6i mh442p+y1KJYdlyhL7rlFaKopeG5pqTUvBeipSbGAQ6HEuYX0rzZyE3fvqnlUappkmQd FacdXuFePmTBn0bilCUOFsbAywsYIech+ukeWD1EJovfJf/x2JeFw47wcNsUotQHfdTL Ug== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 32x8bmu34u-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 16 Aug 2020 14:32:41 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 07GERbZO103086; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 14:32:40 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 32xskwp0yp-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 16 Aug 2020 14:32:40 +0000 Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 07GEWcp8006410; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 14:32:38 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <07457c95-138b-4769-8e36-3482a9302e00@default> Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 07:32:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Kangas , Bob Proulx Subject: RE: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5017.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9715 signatures=668679 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=869 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2008160119 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9715 signatures=668679 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=860 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1011 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2008160119 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Bob Proulx writes: >=20 > > In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is > > a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings > > to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the > > buffer. > > > > Please revert this. >=20 > This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used > to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to > disable it for those that really don't like it. >=20 > I therefore propose to close this as wontfix. +1 to DISable it by default, IOW revert to normal, longstanding Emacs behavior. There was no reason to enable it by default. It's easy enough to ENable. Such things should be opt-in. Heck, we still don't even have `delete-selection-mode' on by default. And it took _decades_ to get `transient-mark-mode' on by default. What's so special about this that it was turned on by default? Arguments of "has been the default since 26.1" and "it has seen only few complaints" are pretty shallow. For Emacs, 26.1 is, as Bob said, a recent release. Until a few days ago 26.3 was the _current_ release. Such overeagerness to change default Emacs behavior should really be curbed. Please add my +1 voice to the "few complaints" about this kind of change. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 16 10:39:32 2020 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Aug 2020 14:39:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58122 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k7Joq-00008d-L5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:39:32 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:38566) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k7Joo-00008P-72 for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:39:31 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:39521) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1k7Joi-0004j1-ML; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:39:24 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1977 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1k7Joh-0003IJ-Ei; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:39:24 -0400 Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:39:06 +0300 Message-Id: <83imdiirjp.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Sun, 16 Aug 2020 03:16:03 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org, bob@proulx.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 03:16:03 -0700 > Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org > > This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used > to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to > disable it for those that really don't like it. > > I therefore propose to close this as wontfix. I agree. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 16 12:12:58 2020 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Aug 2020 16:12:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58256 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k7LHG-0002OA-35 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:12:58 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f54.google.com ([209.85.221.54]:41153) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1k7LHC-0002Ns-Tm for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:12:56 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f54.google.com with SMTP id r2so12559963wrs.8 for <35887@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 09:12:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=7OUVCY3DDUAK6t8lttt2Bn7daHlYcGIfV1DJMirqyK4=; b=MNw+uZuzM0sWd71574Grwx3wqpt9ieaWOIIWBU24LJUDZP7mv1S3JKHYKk/FEtIhGd hO3909blU4XpncfFo9koEYpLQ9VBtGJIhHpKRO5YJd7I2FdMmkBTd84thNusS8TMkHtX Mq3JWMRc3WtxNQyqRuet9m0Wua9N/q7VA6/04obQxk00Dg2S7Xakot2t4ww4uc9j7l15 /EES61GTnAxqejx4441WGknc/JrPZTfMzJgE+wp0GZ+pIa7eW9cGZtuvah82gsl+0mBQ IidszzRB7F+yi8p9kmR8opJWcllfD5r/Uu+5LxMpWhqfV+8Kyx5iGDz2GLfzd8qV6+Aj Pk/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=7OUVCY3DDUAK6t8lttt2Bn7daHlYcGIfV1DJMirqyK4=; b=Cw5p9c3QH5+KwQLavWxIcVD2KSwQPVhwIA+MqS/ISf1wjEi5nvnKkXsdVwERgzlTld Rnve5HGa+Nay1gaer7fkeFpM7C0cx7d9ni2P6qm5vGFs6UPCB82zYTwp/Hpq1ayIoAhI fNywWGHzcti8+Q13h6qQR1CNXgI00iaqMtwSRGMf+XSFOc/XqrIeG1kDo40dtYkNHgLN 1OuIbI2ZPo2V6OytIoObbVvPmG+cZgTc0uz2uEPm35kNQ7cOZlJKW5UVP3F/rLe9j2Gv 15gzB7e+1/S4u0lBetUxjfi1LlWB4BS2waOnO/549pxQdenPM0wqEB0Ws2WvkAov70rt 6F7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533pxmz87WtPHksGnNHBlzLwPxNtSiYVNKwjHlzt9nsTDK05JxoM 0aj7xBpK11YF09F0w8cEYTZVpkyPnKk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxmIBrVtd87nLrC8o48UGgtoixhirQo9MreP0ORqYHpO3GLb/FCaGfXxmg4dQxwgJWCMEMeuw== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:564c:: with SMTP id j12mr7108153wrw.357.1597594368847; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 09:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from my-little-tumbleweed (200.143.13.109.rev.sfr.net. [109.13.143.200]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k184sm26193580wme.1.2020.08.16.09.12.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 16 Aug 2020 09:12:48 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?Q?K=C3=A9vin_Le_Gouguec?= To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <07457c95-138b-4769-8e36-3482a9302e00@default> Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:12:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: <07457c95-138b-4769-8e36-3482a9302e00@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 16 Aug 2020 07:32:37 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <877dtyvabk.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas , Bob Proulx X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: >> Bob Proulx writes: >> >> > In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is >> > a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings >> > to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the >> > buffer. >> > >> > Please revert this. >> >> This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used >> to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to >> disable it for those that really don't like it. >> >> I therefore propose to close this as wontfix. > > +1 to DISable it by default, IOW revert to normal, > longstanding Emacs behavior. There was no reason to > enable it by default. It's easy enough to ENable. > > Such things should be opt-in. FWIW, I find eldoc's echo-area hints rather useful and, more importantly, innocuous. I don't have a problem with Emacs enabling features by default; it seems fair to me for Emacs to enable unobtrusive features on the off chance that it helps someone, as long as they're easy to disable for users who dislike them (and I can understand disliking the echo-area agitation). IMO Eldoc is no worse than e.g. the menu bar or the tool bar. I don't find those bars worth the space they take, but I'm sure they help plenty of people, and I'll gladly endure the two-line penalty to my config to hide them if showing them by default helps enough users. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 01 08:27:14 2020 Received: (at 35887) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Oct 2020 12:27:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34499 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kNxg2-0001Z5-MT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 08:27:14 -0400 Received: from mail-ej1-f49.google.com ([209.85.218.49]:45721) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kNxg0-0001YL-Sf for 35887@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 08:27:13 -0400 Received: by mail-ej1-f49.google.com with SMTP id i26so7736390ejb.12 for <35887@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 05:27:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MOdvt5jhzAXNM+GkZF0vOARd02eRwK93b9SFtdff6W0=; b=HYHmScLeVSGhYm8UY/MNq7KK+mtzJngS2/zSqeHXVb+zFw07rdS3qWeJY4x6/FwW+V mtljI3yOMnDqm4of5yDlpJzc8fnRAJaOPOtXAL2G2AmHU/LqtecArnajA2PGgWvC5xUI UEGLilU3tFQ4tvwPRJQrlP7oqTECljKgehDKdCfx+7zqy/VuRmf1DFazM69BYZ+b0WIn YjAE2Gd85dQ6/2gVKhfiiZw5xf2uk7CEhLZHm64DTiSPAcVkt53Oz5EQ3frWebQzvVHi XZ07/4vonfnSlhDunI9H6vWDFJC3TpqI5M56k89skS36/prPP47ucJxk6MNjDFRveMf8 fUzA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531VFFSuHUfkQ7puiOsb9pQ+e5gRIhpKi+a8b4k60RgoTxc2TiHt bVg7mK/0Zcw6fN/s5hjVj9spf3NIpE3+qGyMOcMKttIy X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy+yCmWM+qNE95LeGw20YSd7A8ArZcIuR+hBjiKYo2bn2qFCQOZYh39qg/oip3VYD3IUnqPvwASDbwgbzKe0jg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:c015:: with SMTP id e21mr7672850ejz.432.1601555227281; Thu, 01 Oct 2020 05:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 05:27:06 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <83imdiirjp.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:39:06 +0300") References: <87sgt3k4w0.fsf@hysteria.proulx.com> <83imdiirjp.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 05:27:06 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35887 Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org, bob@proulx.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) tags 35887 wontfix notabug close 35887 thanks Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Stefan Kangas >> Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 03:16:03 -0700 >> Cc: 35887@debbugs.gnu.org >> >> This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used >> to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to >> disable it for those that really don't like it. >> >> I therefore propose to close this as wontfix. > > I agree. Done. From unknown Sat Jun 21 10:35:15 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 11:24:14 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator