From unknown Tue Jun 24 20:55:18 2025 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: bug#3566: 23.0.94; explain why not to use group defined by define-minor-mode Reply-To: "Drew Adams" , 3566@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@lists.donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:30:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-Emacs-PR-Message: report 3566 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Received: via spool by submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B.12450110037495 (code B ref -1); Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:30:05 +0000 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 14 Jun 2009 20:23:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=4.0 tests=AWL,FOURLA autolearn=no version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n5EKNJje007490 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:23:20 -0700 Received: from mx10.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:52235) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MFwEY-0002EW-Fs for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:23:18 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MFwEX-0007DN-2k for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:23:18 -0400 Received: from rcsinet12.oracle.com ([148.87.113.124]:41685 helo=rgminet12.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MFwEW-0007DE-OL for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:23:16 -0400 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n5EKMvxN022170 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:22:59 GMT Received: from abhmt005.oracle.com (abhmt005.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n5EKNGUY004204 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:23:17 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.160.38) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:23:10 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:23:10 -0700 Message-ID: <4276C1AF57E24DE89998752CA7F77EE1@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcntLe9ZEUk4VuJoTY+17fcf82f46w== X-Source-IP: abhmt005.oracle.com [141.146.116.14] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.4A355C2F.0068:SCFSTAT5015188,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) In the Elisp manual and in the doc string for define-minor-mode, we are told not to use the custom group that is automatically defined for the mode variable, unless we have explicitly used defgroup to define the group. Why? Please provide some explanation. If you use `define-globalized-minor-mode', then the generated group (with the name of the _local_ minor mode) is recognized by `customize-group', and the mode variable for the global mode is recognized by `customize-variable'. Why is it inadvisable to use the same generated group for other defcustoms without explicitly defining the group? What negative consequences arise if that is attempted? Please explain in the doc. The Elisp manual, node Defining Minor Modes, seems to refer you to node `Group Definitions' for the explanation of this warning, but there is no such explanation there: "*Warning:* don't use this default group name unless you have written a `defgroup' to define that group properly. *Not Group Definitions." In GNU Emacs 23.0.94.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2009-05-24 on SOFT-MJASON Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (3.4)' From rgm@gnu.org Wed Nov 4 14:01:42 2009 Received: (at control) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 4 Nov 2009 22:01:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.8 required=4.0 tests=AWL,ONEWORD,VALID_BTS_CONTROL autolearn=no version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id nA4M1e7A002782 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2009 14:01:42 -0800 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1N5nv9-0000E4-Ub; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:01:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19185.63939.653937.427902@fencepost.gnu.org> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:01:39 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: control Subject: control severity 3631 minor severity 3267 minor reassign 3267 emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com severity 3481 minor severity 3644 minor severity 3722 wishlist severity 4360 minor tags 3613 wontfix tags 2134 = severity 4731 minor severity 3849 wishlist close 3564 merge 4668 3227 tags 2792 wontfix minor severity 4433 minor severity 4668 minor severity 4562 minor severity 3934 minor severity 3856 minor severity 3801 minor severity 3615 minor severity 3599 minor severity 3598 minor severity 3575 minor severity 3566 minor severity 3550 minor severity 3549 minor severity 3527 minor severity 3525 minor severity 3524 minor severity 3523 minor severity 3519 minor severity 3509 minor severity 3503 minor severity 3393 minor severity 3371 minor severity 3320 minor severity 3313 minor severity 3249 minor severity 3227 minor severity 3138 minor severity 3135 minor severity 3137 minor severity 3052 minor severity 3042 minor severity 2974 minor severity 2946 minor severity 2792 minor severity 1749 minor severity 1375 minor severity 1144 minor From unknown Tue Jun 24 20:55:18 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#3566: 23.0.94; explain why not to use group defined by define-minor-mode Resent-From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:17:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 3566 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "Drew Adams" Cc: 3566@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 3566-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B3566.131048019830928 (code B ref 3566); Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:17:01 +0000 Received: (at 3566) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2011 14:16:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QgdlM-00082k-Pr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:16:37 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QgdlK-00082K-H6 for 3566@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:16:35 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.51.58.getinternet.no ([84.215.51.58] helo=quimbies.gnus.org) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qgdkz-0002ag-1h; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:16:13 +0200 From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: <4276C1AF57E24DE89998752CA7F77EE1@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:23:10 -0700") Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:07:41 +0200 Message-ID: References: <4276C1AF57E24DE89998752CA7F77EE1@us.oracle.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110018 (No Gnus v0.18) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-Now-Playing: Japan's _Oil On Canvas (2)_: "Still Life in Mobile Homes" X-Hashcash: 1:23:110712:emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org::dfFDn+/sVUIVoJBX:0000000000000000000000000000000000006PdS X-Hashcash: 1:23:110712:drew.adams@oracle.com::LKzYzPIIlBX2j5Je:00000000000000000000000000000000000000008AQL X-Hashcash: 1:23:110712:3566@debbugs.gnu.org::7vfcLmxO5D4VI8Vj:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000FCx8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MailScanner-ID: 1Qgdkz-0002ag-1h X-Netfonds-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Netfonds-MailScanner-From: larsi@gnus.org MailScanner-NULL-Check: 1311084973.19696@Rg2uGUK+QSW1gY8ZZN5osQ X-Spam-Status: No X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) "Drew Adams" writes: > In the Elisp manual and in the doc string for define-minor-mode, we > are told not to use the custom group that is automatically defined for > the mode variable, unless we have explicitly used defgroup to define > the group. > > Why? Please provide some explanation. > > If you use `define-globalized-minor-mode', then the generated group > (with the name of the _local_ minor mode) is recognized by > `customize-group', and the mode variable for the global mode is > recognized by `customize-variable'. > > Why is it inadvisable to use the same generated group for other > defcustoms without explicitly defining the group? What negative > consequences arise if that is attempted? Please explain in the doc. > > The Elisp manual, node Defining Minor Modes, seems to refer you to > node `Group Definitions' for the explanation of this warning, but > there is no such explanation there: > > "*Warning:* don't use this default group name unless you have > written a `defgroup' to define that group properly. *Not > Group Definitions." Yes, this seems rather puzzling. Anybody know the reason? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/ From unknown Tue Jun 24 20:55:18 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#3566: 23.0.94; explain why not to use group defined by define-minor-mode Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:03:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 3566 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "Drew Adams" Cc: 3566@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 3566-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B3566.14617873396229 (code B ref 3566); Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:03:02 +0000 Received: (at 3566) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Apr 2016 20:02:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50646 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avVf8-0001cO-U0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:02:19 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:48494) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avVf6-0001cG-S1 for 3566@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:02:17 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avVf3-0002Wu-Eu; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:02:15 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <4276C1AF57E24DE89998752CA7F77EE1@us.oracle.com> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:02:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4276C1AF57E24DE89998752CA7F77EE1@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:23:10 -0700") Message-ID: <87twimvn0a.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) "Drew Adams" writes: > In the Elisp manual and in the doc string for define-minor-mode, we > are told not to use the custom group that is automatically defined for > the mode variable, unless we have explicitly used defgroup to define > the group. > > Why? Please provide some explanation. This is the last change to that part: :group GROUP Custom group name to use in all generated `defcustom' forms. Defaults to MODE without the possible trailing \"-mode\". - (This default may not be a valid customization group defined - with `defgroup'. Make sure it is.) + Don't use this default group name unless you have written a + `defgroup' to define that group properly. The previous version may have been clearer? I think what it's trying to say is that if you have a :group, then you should make sure to add a defgroup to that symbol. > Why is it inadvisable to use the same generated group for other > defcustoms without explicitly defining the group? What negative > consequences arise if that is attempted? Please explain in the doc. Presumably this is because there are things in a defgroup that should be there, but aren't if you don't use a defgroup? I.e., :link and a name for the group. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From unknown Tue Jun 24 20:55:18 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#3566: 23.0.94; explain why not to use group defined by define-minor-mode Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:05:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 3566 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "Drew Adams" Cc: 3566@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 3566-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B3566.14617874706421 (code B ref 3566); Wed, 27 Apr 2016 20:05:01 +0000 Received: (at 3566) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Apr 2016 20:04:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50650 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avVhG-0001fU-9V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:04:30 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:48511) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avVhA-0001fI-J3 for 3566@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:04:28 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avVh6-0002YF-5Z; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:04:24 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <4276C1AF57E24DE89998752CA7F77EE1@us.oracle.com> <87twimvn0a.fsf@gnus.org> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:04:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87twimvn0a.fsf@gnus.org> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:02:13 +0200") Message-ID: <87potavmws.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > :group GROUP Custom group name to use in all generated `defcustom' forms. > Defaults to MODE without the possible trailing \"-mode\". > - (This default may not be a valid customization group defined > - with `defgroup'. Make sure it is.) > + Don't use this default group name unless you have written a > + `defgroup' to define that group properly. > > The previous version may have been clearer? I think what it's trying to > say is that if you have a :group, then you should make sure to add a > defgroup to that symbol. Actually, I think it's clear enough as it is without spelling out the rationale behind this. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 27 16:04:33 2016 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Apr 2016 20:04:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50653 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avVhI-0001fk-SI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:04:32 -0400 Received: from hermes.netfonds.no ([80.91.224.195]:48518) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avVhH-0001fd-RJ for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 16:04:32 -0400 Received: from cm-84.215.1.64.getinternet.no ([84.215.1.64] helo=mouse) by hermes.netfonds.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1avVhF-0002YX-Pp for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:04:31 +0200 Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 22:04:29 +0200 Message-Id: <87oa8uvmwi.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #3566 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) tags 3566 wontfix close 3566