From unknown Mon Aug 11 18:19:06 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#35580: hexl-mode documentation is confusing about insertion Resent-From: Reuben Thomas Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 May 2019 12:55:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 35580 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 35580@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-emacs Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.15570608684581 (code B ref -1); Sun, 05 May 2019 12:55:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2019 12:54:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53206 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGey-0001Bo-GF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58265) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGew-0001Ba-0F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:26 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:38854) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGeq-0003o1-Qi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44413) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGep-00067o-E9 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:20 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,HTML_MESSAGE, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:46342) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGep-0003lm-BJ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54524) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGek-0002y4-4C for bug-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:15 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGei-0003hR-Rv for bug-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:14 -0400 Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]:38028) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGeh-0003dc-Or for bug-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:12 -0400 Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id t70so7691969oif.5 for ; Sun, 05 May 2019 05:54:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sc3d.org; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=c2pJU3KUib/3y9p+o2otfXI6nIsOJx1qVaA0Zno8x/8=; b=V+eaEUZ9u78xJRw5Klwq0Zm65apCVAcQLSx+L2Y7rxcFkoPxvbKidDEBElaxFolz5B MfbU6qQI2HYngqi6amBqjjfO2vW4j1+lmb/2UFS6j8voAuy/DfsYay5qhsXQx5MEOTZW vNz5l+YS6BiB6n+9VqeuQChB4B4gqvtHyBLZ0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=c2pJU3KUib/3y9p+o2otfXI6nIsOJx1qVaA0Zno8x/8=; b=Qk1quLDdq41/9qqUg9E2Uxal5N3pXwH4Ni6yFuneHwhxuq4s7rMTUXKkcB63+jwLOo Lte0Rg8vp7enaEY+Ou2Q0MdUZD6w6Etbk2QJ4kKa6fyF39dOPPoZZBVEASrL8IdknL6E lZSQLxP/6vQuP0iYKre55RmWWzKr427An4Udj0srFA8IipLqjTA51+u6UNM+4T393/By ziTzwT1m6W/xuQt2wdUquIh3At18T8Qk/6BQIFvYd2dIpzuXkMBbEtch8cI+0i7P7Tly fNdaXPKSm+GJpjRHisf7qkP4n9CIkO+qtJlzrm58Yk8d7I9Zu41r3DbB2PbVxDMQYL05 iqdw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXRHeUzZ0jEgaZbIyY+LlbDFdH7Etm0hcz9P6eRowRNNv7pwsoU Abb6Lg6Pp9yIMhqzbTdOn7shugF/kfVzaiaV69jR95CKEY4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzAc3B46J31XW9qbJcrh1hmj9xilvxbroCcxwRm6wLYx3mMSCw1ApwA9JqgdA4xOvtWOvdRwigfq2OwebbxqKM= X-Received: by 2002:aca:df55:: with SMTP id w82mr5220651oig.113.1557060846203; Sun, 05 May 2019 05:54:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Reuben Thomas Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 13:53:55 +0100 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a1cbcf0588237a22" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) --000000000000a1cbcf0588237a22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I have been trying to understand how to insert (rather than overwrite) characters in hexl-mode. The documentation seems to be quite clear: Ordinary text characters overwrite in Hexl mode. This is to reduce the risk of accidentally spoiling the alignment of data in the file. There are special commands for insertion. (I copied this from git master just to be sure!) The list of commands underneath list several commands that have "insert" in their name, leading the naive reader (me) to believe they will insert rather than overwrite. However, this is not the case: the various keystrokes listed underneath which mention "insert" all overstrike. I suspect that my confusion results from guessing (incorrectly) that the sentence "There are special commands for insertion" uses the word "insertion" to oppose "overwrite" earlier in the paragraph; but in fact, it means "insertion" in the sense of "inserting a character", which happens always to overwrite in hexl-mode. To clarify this, I suggest changing the sentence There are special commands for insertion. to There are special commands to insert characters by their numeric code. I think this is the feature that the sentence is trying to point up, as evidenced by the fact that the (partial) list of commands that follows gives the various commands for inserting a character by its code. Finally, the sentence Here is a list of the commands of Hexl mode: could be changed to Here are some of the most useful commands of Hexl mode: because the list is not comprehensive (nor need it be). -- https://rrt.sc3d.org --000000000000a1cbcf0588237a22 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have been trying to = understand how to insert (rather than overwrite) characters in hexl-mode. T= he documentation seems to be quite clear:

=C2=A0 Ordinary text characters overwrite in Hexl mode.= =C2=A0 This is to reduce
the risk of accidentally spoiling the alignment= of data in the file.
There are special commands for insertion.

(I copied this from git master= just to be sure!)

The= list of commands underneath list several commands that have "insert&q= uot; in their name, leading the naive reader (me) to believe they will inse= rt rather than overwrite.

However, this is not the case: the various keystrokes listed underneath= which mention "insert" all overstrike.

I suspec= t that my confusion results from guessing (incorrectly) that the sentence &= quot;There are special commands for insertion" uses the word "ins= ertion" to oppose "overwrite" earlier in the paragraph; but = in fact, it means "insertion" in the sense of "inserting a c= haracter", which happens always to overwrite in hexl-mode.

To clarify this, I suggest changi= ng the sentence

=C2=A0= There are special commands for insertion.

to

=C2=A0 There are special commands to insert characters by their numeric c= ode.

I think this is t= he feature that the sentence is trying to point up, as evidenced by the fac= t that the (partial) list of commands that follows gives the various comman= ds for inserting a character by its code.

Finally, the sentence

=C2=A0 Here is a list of the commands of Hexl mode:

could be changed to
=

=C2=A0 Here are some of the= most useful commands of Hexl mode:

because the list is not comprehensive (nor need it be).
=
--000000000000a1cbcf0588237a22-- From unknown Mon Aug 11 18:19:06 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505) X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Reuben Thomas Subject: bug#35580: closed (Re: bug#35580: hexl-mode documentation is confusing about insertion) Message-ID: References: <837eaxdwtl.fsf@gnu.org> X-Gnu-PR-Message: they-closed 35580 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 35580@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 12:02:02 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1557576122-18055-1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1557576122-18055-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Your bug report #35580: hexl-mode documentation is confusing about insertion which was filed against the emacs package, has been closed. The explanation is attached below, along with your original report. If you require more details, please reply to 35580@debbugs.gnu.org. --=20 35580: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D35580 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1557576122-18055-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 35580-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 May 2019 12:01:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40005 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hPQh9-0004gf-7K for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 May 2019 08:01:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58565) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hPQh7-0004gS-Kc for 35580-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 11 May 2019 08:01:38 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:38198) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hPQh2-0004az-2i; Sat, 11 May 2019 08:01:32 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2337 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hPQh1-0002XF-Ib; Sat, 11 May 2019 08:01:31 -0400 Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 15:01:26 +0300 Message-Id: <837eaxdwtl.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Reuben Thomas In-reply-to: (message from Reuben Thomas on Sun, 5 May 2019 13:53:55 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#35580: hexl-mode documentation is confusing about insertion References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 35580-done Cc: 35580-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Reuben Thomas > Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 13:53:55 +0100 > > Ordinary text characters overwrite in Hexl mode. This is to reduce > the risk of accidentally spoiling the alignment of data in the file. > There are special commands for insertion. > > (I copied this from git master just to be sure!) > > The list of commands underneath list several commands that have "insert" in their name, leading the naive > reader (me) to believe they will insert rather than overwrite. > > However, this is not the case: the various keystrokes listed underneath which mention "insert" all overstrike. > > I suspect that my confusion results from guessing (incorrectly) that the sentence "There are special > commands for insertion" uses the word "insertion" to oppose "overwrite" earlier in the paragraph; but in fact, it > means "insertion" in the sense of "inserting a character", which happens always to overwrite in hexl-mode. Thanks, I clarified this text. ------------=_1557576122-18055-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 May 2019 12:54:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53206 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGey-0001Bo-GF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58265) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGew-0001Ba-0F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:26 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:38854) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGeq-0003o1-Qi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44413) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGep-00067o-E9 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:20 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,HTML_MESSAGE, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:46342) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGep-0003lm-BJ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54524) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGek-0002y4-4C for bug-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:15 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGei-0003hR-Rv for bug-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:14 -0400 Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]:38028) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hNGeh-0003dc-Or for bug-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2019 08:54:12 -0400 Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id t70so7691969oif.5 for ; Sun, 05 May 2019 05:54:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sc3d.org; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=c2pJU3KUib/3y9p+o2otfXI6nIsOJx1qVaA0Zno8x/8=; b=V+eaEUZ9u78xJRw5Klwq0Zm65apCVAcQLSx+L2Y7rxcFkoPxvbKidDEBElaxFolz5B MfbU6qQI2HYngqi6amBqjjfO2vW4j1+lmb/2UFS6j8voAuy/DfsYay5qhsXQx5MEOTZW vNz5l+YS6BiB6n+9VqeuQChB4B4gqvtHyBLZ0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=c2pJU3KUib/3y9p+o2otfXI6nIsOJx1qVaA0Zno8x/8=; b=Qk1quLDdq41/9qqUg9E2Uxal5N3pXwH4Ni6yFuneHwhxuq4s7rMTUXKkcB63+jwLOo Lte0Rg8vp7enaEY+Ou2Q0MdUZD6w6Etbk2QJ4kKa6fyF39dOPPoZZBVEASrL8IdknL6E lZSQLxP/6vQuP0iYKre55RmWWzKr427An4Udj0srFA8IipLqjTA51+u6UNM+4T393/By ziTzwT1m6W/xuQt2wdUquIh3At18T8Qk/6BQIFvYd2dIpzuXkMBbEtch8cI+0i7P7Tly fNdaXPKSm+GJpjRHisf7qkP4n9CIkO+qtJlzrm58Yk8d7I9Zu41r3DbB2PbVxDMQYL05 iqdw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXRHeUzZ0jEgaZbIyY+LlbDFdH7Etm0hcz9P6eRowRNNv7pwsoU Abb6Lg6Pp9yIMhqzbTdOn7shugF/kfVzaiaV69jR95CKEY4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzAc3B46J31XW9qbJcrh1hmj9xilvxbroCcxwRm6wLYx3mMSCw1ApwA9JqgdA4xOvtWOvdRwigfq2OwebbxqKM= X-Received: by 2002:aca:df55:: with SMTP id w82mr5220651oig.113.1557060846203; Sun, 05 May 2019 05:54:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Reuben Thomas Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 13:53:55 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: hexl-mode documentation is confusing about insertion To: bug-emacs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a1cbcf0588237a22" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) --000000000000a1cbcf0588237a22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I have been trying to understand how to insert (rather than overwrite) characters in hexl-mode. The documentation seems to be quite clear: Ordinary text characters overwrite in Hexl mode. This is to reduce the risk of accidentally spoiling the alignment of data in the file. There are special commands for insertion. (I copied this from git master just to be sure!) The list of commands underneath list several commands that have "insert" in their name, leading the naive reader (me) to believe they will insert rather than overwrite. However, this is not the case: the various keystrokes listed underneath which mention "insert" all overstrike. I suspect that my confusion results from guessing (incorrectly) that the sentence "There are special commands for insertion" uses the word "insertion" to oppose "overwrite" earlier in the paragraph; but in fact, it means "insertion" in the sense of "inserting a character", which happens always to overwrite in hexl-mode. To clarify this, I suggest changing the sentence There are special commands for insertion. to There are special commands to insert characters by their numeric code. I think this is the feature that the sentence is trying to point up, as evidenced by the fact that the (partial) list of commands that follows gives the various commands for inserting a character by its code. Finally, the sentence Here is a list of the commands of Hexl mode: could be changed to Here are some of the most useful commands of Hexl mode: because the list is not comprehensive (nor need it be). -- https://rrt.sc3d.org --000000000000a1cbcf0588237a22 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have been trying to = understand how to insert (rather than overwrite) characters in hexl-mode. T= he documentation seems to be quite clear:

=C2=A0 Ordinary text characters overwrite in Hexl mode.= =C2=A0 This is to reduce
the risk of accidentally spoiling the alignment= of data in the file.
There are special commands for insertion.

(I copied this from git master= just to be sure!)

The= list of commands underneath list several commands that have "insert&q= uot; in their name, leading the naive reader (me) to believe they will inse= rt rather than overwrite.

However, this is not the case: the various keystrokes listed underneath= which mention "insert" all overstrike.

I suspec= t that my confusion results from guessing (incorrectly) that the sentence &= quot;There are special commands for insertion" uses the word "ins= ertion" to oppose "overwrite" earlier in the paragraph; but = in fact, it means "insertion" in the sense of "inserting a c= haracter", which happens always to overwrite in hexl-mode.

To clarify this, I suggest changi= ng the sentence

=C2=A0= There are special commands for insertion.

to

=C2=A0 There are special commands to insert characters by their numeric c= ode.

I think this is t= he feature that the sentence is trying to point up, as evidenced by the fac= t that the (partial) list of commands that follows gives the various comman= ds for inserting a character by its code.

Finally, the sentence

=C2=A0 Here is a list of the commands of Hexl mode:

could be changed to
=

=C2=A0 Here are some of the= most useful commands of Hexl mode:

because the list is not comprehensive (nor need it be).
=
--000000000000a1cbcf0588237a22-- ------------=_1557576122-18055-1--