From kop@meme.com Thu Jun 11 18:46:56 2009 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 12 Jun 2009 01:46:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n5C1kqQh010315 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:46:53 -0700 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MEvr2-0006dr-3g for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:46:52 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MEvqw-0006WN-UB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:46:51 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=51086 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MEvqw-0006WC-Q2 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:46:46 -0400 Received: from janus.meme.com ([69.17.73.118]:59829 helo=smtp.meme.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MEvqw-0004vI-7w for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:46:46 -0400 Received: by smtp.meme.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5BE2A20135; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:46:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mofo.meme.com (unknown [192.168.1.2]) by smtp.meme.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6530920117 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:46:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mofo (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mofo.meme.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D84A43C6E for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:46:43 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:46:40 -0500 From: "Karl O. Pinc" Subject: Please reserve a ctrl-key combination for interoperability To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailer: Balsa 2.3.13 Message-Id: <1244771200l.4854l.2l@mofo> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; DelSp=Yes; Format=Flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. Hello, I want emacs to keep one control key combination unbound so that emacs can be run inside other programs that need an escape character to enter a control mode. Examples of such programs are screen and minicom. Screen is a full-screen window manager that multiplexes a physical terminal between several processes (typically interactive shells). Minicom is a serial communication program, a terminal emulator. It is difficult to use emacs inside such programs because these programs (by default) bind a commonly used emacs control key sequence as their escape key. Emacs users should be able to re-configure such programs to use an unbound emacs ctrl keypress. Sure, each emacs user could chose their own key combination (I used ctrl-\, but I recently upgraded from emacs 21 and see it's now bound in emacs 22), but this makes it almost impossible to, e.g., publish tutorials/recipies on how to use, say, screen, with emacs. The person following the tutorial might need the particular emacs feature that is no longer bound to the standard emacs key combination. As things stand emacs users have a bar over which they must jump to use such useful programs as screen; each user must figure out what emacs keypress they wish to sacrifice, taking into account the key combinations used by screen at a time when they are unfamiliar with screen. At minimum if a control key combination was reserved the choice would be obvious, at best either emacs or the screen documentation would describe what configuration and usage changes were necessary to allow the two programs to interoperate. Frankly, Ctrl-\ was perfect because it was not otherwise bound in either screen or minicom. The choice of a key that's already bound in these programs means that yet more reconfiguration of screen/minicom must be done to retain functionality, the lost functionality must be bound to a non-standard key. This introduces yet more incompatibility between emacs users and the rest of the universe. Thank you for your time. Karl Free Software: "You don't pay back, you pay forward." -- Robert A. Heinlein From rgm@gnu.org Wed Jun 17 00:29:42 2009 Received: (at control) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 17 Jun 2009 07:29:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=4.0 tests=AWL,VALID_BTS_CONTROL autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n5H7TcQa018381 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 00:29:39 -0700 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MGpaT-00005k-JR; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 03:29:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19000.39777.414084.568239@fencepost.gnu.org> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 03:29:37 -0400 From: Glenn Morris To: control Subject: control message Sender: Glenn Morris tags 3196 moreinfo unreproducible reassign 3221 emacs,ns reassign 3256 emacs,ns tags 3264 moreinfo reassign 3269 emacs,cc-mode close 3269 reassign 3281 emacs,w32 tags 3291 moreinfo severity 3310 minor close 3319 severity 3327 minor tags 3330 moreinfo unreproducible reassign 3331 emacs,ns close 3331 reassign 3351 emacs,ns severity 3350 minor reassign 3397 emacs,ns severity 3425 wishlist close 3448 reassign 3459 emacs,ns severity 3462 wishlist tags 3467 wontfix reassign 3500 emacs,ns merge 3234 3483 severity 3540 wishlist reassign 3452 emacs,w32 severity 3577 minor reassign 3581 emacs,ns reassign 3583 emacs,ns merge 3588 3593 reassign 3588 emacs,ns reassign 3589 emacs,ns reassign 3478 emacs22,w32 close 3146 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 25 05:57:47 2010 Received: (at 3540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Dec 2010 10:57:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PWRoo-0000lg-VH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Dec 2010 05:57:47 -0500 Received: from fmmailgate03.web.de ([217.72.192.234]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PWRom-0000lR-Ui for 3540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Dec 2010 05:57:45 -0500 Received: from smtp08.web.de ( [172.20.5.216]) by fmmailgate03.web.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4AB01813BF4A for <3540@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:02:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from [188.98.138.104] (helo=gentooxo) by smtp08.web.de with asmtp (WEB.DE 4.110 #2) id 1PWRtI-0004ES-00; Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:02:24 +0100 Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 12:02:30 +0100 Message-Id: <868vzeazeh.fsf@yahoo.de> To: 3540@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: reserve a key + inform other gnu package maintainers and mode-authors From: Arne Babenhauserheide MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Sender: arne_bab@web.de X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/qW729jmGZnoZPFUvnQAw6TfWFb9YGFodntNf+ E4vVuqE5W+2NRD3vUm+hTXYlpcru5PB6eMV35NiEGEgNBDqTl2 MbLSFrkn0= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -4.4 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 3540 Cc: arne_bab@web.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Reply-To: arne_bab@yahoo.de List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) I=E2=80=99d love to see an officially reserved key, too (which emacs prom= ises to keep reserved), ideally a standard letter (which is also readily available on international keyboards). Any special character (like \) will prove problematic with international keyboards =E2=80=94 and even mo= re with alternate keyboard layouts. Naturally the problem with this is that no C- combination is free an= ymore=E2=80=A6 I think I=E2=80=99ll use C-o, because adding newlines behind the point ge= nerally only confuses me when I hit C-o by error, but I assume many people use it and would be angry to lose the command if it would be made the default reserved key=E2=80=A6=20 Another problem with C-o is that C-M-o runs split-current line which many people might use.=20 So selecting a reserved key might take some though - and ideally an emacs user-survey.=20 Best wishes,=20 Arne From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 06 00:56:35 2019 Received: (at 3540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Oct 2019 04:56:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45463 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iGyax-0003oH-IV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:56:35 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f196.google.com ([209.85.215.196]:33366) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iGyav-0003o4-5D for 3540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:56:33 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f196.google.com with SMTP id q1so6145964pgb.0 for <3540@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 05 Oct 2019 21:56:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YSxVJetZBD/ev7+8mL8fi2aaDj6al6qJunWntoPuZwA=; b=ETubQigeR6R782awDfi9l8gnyZVV4cHtJOws+HUKAKRSUw0XBbe0tHFw+y7bmoNqPd knOMbQGxTJOeTm1PMP2+UioPr6/5EkuQMrXe070nlJ4TDqv11c70pdZzwDXTSbf5c0+c fAPK5p2FHS2W9XP95Xie2t6DqGsq7BS6uRZJn5WuS+Kk+vvqGS/WRicyWHbyP58p0d4c XH0FygHGn38VyAGAbuUzqhj2NygUjwpYmTpXdPNvu7CRaMKRYzSnb08IoMawpzjbWReE wgIul3AE9eWpXGK74mktpKcf/O+bHNXde8VQAoe8Kjdo4D8lTG1maR0NugE754WPWHFu pEXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU2IQ8CSYOs+0M4m3+i1Dpgh0y7Qz2b9Hrs4axw41QfunHTyBJF I4eYSaxOV416z/MAAb2pqaXPw/cu2KSdGYK3Mqs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzGUn0JhHKlv3iTRLvK034IXYP2wnieHnIbJpuGi1v9uqNJCDnYujLsfrX1FkoR5UWldBlFGso2duVnG/s4pPQ= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8750:: with SMTP id g16mr25559074pfo.190.1570337787110; Sat, 05 Oct 2019 21:56:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Stefan Kangas Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 06:56:16 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#3540: Please reserve a ctrl-key combination for interoperability To: "Karl O. Pinc" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 3540 Cc: 3540@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) "Karl O. Pinc" writes: > Hello, > > I want emacs to keep one control key combination unbound > so that emacs can be run inside other programs that > need an escape character to enter a control mode. > Examples of such programs are screen and minicom. > > Screen is a full-screen window manager that multiplexes > a physical terminal between several processes > (typically interactive shells). Minicom is a > serial communication program, a terminal emulator. > > It is difficult to use emacs inside such programs because > these programs (by default) bind a commonly used emacs control > key sequence as their escape key. Emacs users should be able to > re-configure such programs to use an unbound emacs ctrl keypress. > > Sure, each emacs user could chose their own key combination (I used > ctrl-\, but I recently upgraded from emacs 21 and see it's > now bound in emacs 22), but this makes it almost > impossible to, e.g., publish tutorials/recipies on how to > use, say, screen, with emacs. The person following the > tutorial might need the particular emacs feature that > is no longer bound to the standard emacs key combination. > > As things stand emacs users have a bar over which they > must jump to use such useful programs as screen; each > user must figure out what emacs keypress they wish > to sacrifice, taking into account the key combinations > used by screen at a time when they are unfamiliar with > screen. At minimum if a control key combination was > reserved the choice would be obvious, at best either > emacs or the screen documentation would describe > what configuration and usage changes were necessary > to allow the two programs to interoperate. > > Frankly, Ctrl-\ was perfect because it was not otherwise > bound in either screen or minicom. The choice of a key > that's already bound in these programs means that yet more > reconfiguration of screen/minicom must be done to retain > functionality, the lost functionality must be bound to > a non-standard key. This introduces yet more incompatibility > between emacs users and the rest of the universe. > > Thank you for your time. This wishlist request is now 10 years old. If I understand it correctly, it is asking for a mandate to never use a particular Ctrl-key combination (within Emacs core, I assume), in order that people could then use that key within screen. I think this is not the best way to go about it. Users of screen or tmux or whatever could easily just rebind whatever key they find conflicts with their keybinding for screen or tmux commands. Since this hasn't garnered support from more than one other user in the last 10 years, I'm therefore proposing to close this as wontfix. If anyone disagrees with that, please protest now, or I'll do that in a couple of weeks. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 06 03:04:21 2019 Received: (at 3540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Oct 2019 07:04:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45507 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iH0aa-00033f-Nn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 03:04:21 -0400 Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([195.110.48.8]:34168) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iH0aS-00033L-HK for 3540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 03:04:19 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E829E64AB; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 09:04:04 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.mojserwer.eu Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mojserwer.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4qnhwnJ2hK2v; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 09:04:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (jeden09-dwa27.echostar.pl [213.156.109.227]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6DF68E642A; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 09:04:00 +0200 (CEST) References: <1244771200l.4854l.2l@mofo> User-agent: mu4e 1.1.0; emacs 27.0.50 From: Marcin Borkowski To: Stefan Kangas Subject: Re: bug#3540: Please reserve a ctrl-key combination for interoperability In-reply-to: Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2019 09:04:00 +0200 Message-ID: <87y2xye4nz.fsf@mbork.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 3540 Cc: "Karl O. Pinc" , 3540@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 2019-10-06, at 06:56, Stefan Kangas wrote: > "Karl O. Pinc" writes: > >> Hello, >> >> I want emacs to keep one control key combination unbound >> so that emacs can be run inside other programs that >> need an escape character to enter a control mode. >> Examples of such programs are screen and minicom. >> >> Screen is a full-screen window manager that multiplexes >> a physical terminal between several processes >> (typically interactive shells). Minicom is a >> serial communication program, a terminal emulator. >> >> It is difficult to use emacs inside such programs because >> these programs (by default) bind a commonly used emacs control >> key sequence as their escape key. Emacs users should be able to >> re-configure such programs to use an unbound emacs ctrl keypress. >> >> Sure, each emacs user could chose their own key combination (I used >> ctrl-\, but I recently upgraded from emacs 21 and see it's >> now bound in emacs 22), but this makes it almost >> impossible to, e.g., publish tutorials/recipies on how to >> use, say, screen, with emacs. The person following the >> tutorial might need the particular emacs feature that >> is no longer bound to the standard emacs key combination. >> >> As things stand emacs users have a bar over which they >> must jump to use such useful programs as screen; each >> user must figure out what emacs keypress they wish >> to sacrifice, taking into account the key combinations >> used by screen at a time when they are unfamiliar with >> screen. At minimum if a control key combination was >> reserved the choice would be obvious, at best either >> emacs or the screen documentation would describe >> what configuration and usage changes were necessary >> to allow the two programs to interoperate. >> >> Frankly, Ctrl-\ was perfect because it was not otherwise >> bound in either screen or minicom. The choice of a key >> that's already bound in these programs means that yet more >> reconfiguration of screen/minicom must be done to retain >> functionality, the lost functionality must be bound to >> a non-standard key. This introduces yet more incompatibility >> between emacs users and the rest of the universe. >> >> Thank you for your time. > > This wishlist request is now 10 years old. If I understand it > correctly, it is asking for a mandate to never use a particular Ctrl-key > combination (within Emacs core, I assume), in order that people could > then use that key within screen. > > I think this is not the best way to go about it. Users of screen or > tmux or whatever could easily just rebind whatever key they find > conflicts with their keybinding for screen or tmux commands. > > Since this hasn't garnered support from more than one other user in the > last 10 years, I'm therefore proposing to close this as wontfix. If > anyone disagrees with that, please protest now, or I'll do that in a > couple of weeks. As a partial solution, the manual *might* suggest to use C-z for that, especially that is is bounded to a 99.99% useless command by default (and using e.g. screen or tmux makes it 100% useless). Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 06 12:11:13 2019 Received: (at 3540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Oct 2019 16:11:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46730 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iH97p-0005nl-IH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 12:11:13 -0400 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:53866) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iH97n-0005nV-Fq for 3540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 12:11:12 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x96G8oPt183933; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 16:11:05 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2019-08-05; bh=RpByssnd+y9MUiIYoIwlIxPk4cHxYXtjDqQJ6SWmPyw=; b=KWv2YL+G2EifC5i+/WDtqGcYLpx/tbExpWaOMOGkuX2AbicQqDXmvfL2vwqMcRHyV7kQ K7nYOs/dNImo3rPX8XklAM14BgqDXfH0t2o1cNCztUBsH3/+jbzCevMIg5254kaHp/nW BY3YDq39Q7jRy5Mcc/I+qrNmv1coKKJGtQYICjbeHajQ0uFL51IIz8oMOPuXEIAoSAtq uQwKlpcDKZY8dlRGvr6g2q0ZpMzW1+0EyKt++KDUBOBR1OdUtYBa2XfGEGl1ymzAc1ft rGyxxTw/hnEqYMTDLGHaj0E7+GIjPIRE0Bs5OxnKCsr7xI+7QuVuetBouO2E5nT7h5BP AA== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2vejku3hkt-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 06 Oct 2019 16:11:05 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x96G8uu3065391; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 16:11:04 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2vf4pg2d46-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 06 Oct 2019 16:11:04 +0000 Received: from abhmp0015.oracle.com (abhmp0015.oracle.com [141.146.116.21]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id x96GB03k014320; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 16:11:01 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <0d884621-5d6e-47c6-8a0e-d70d4c09f15e@default> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 09:10:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Marcin Borkowski , Stefan Kangas Subject: RE: bug#3540: Please reserve a ctrl-key combination for interoperability References: <1244771200l.4854l.2l@mofo> <87y2xye4nz.fsf@mbork.pl> In-Reply-To: <87y2xye4nz.fsf@mbork.pl> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4900.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9402 signatures=668684 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1908290000 definitions=main-1910060165 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9402 signatures=668684 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1908290000 definitions=main-1910060165 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 3540 Cc: "Karl O. Pinc" , 3540@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > As a partial solution, the manual *might* suggest to use C-z for that, > especially that is is bounded to a 99.99% useless command by default > (and using e.g. screen or tmux makes it 100% useless). No, please don't do that. IMO: `C-z' is better used by users and libraries as a _prefix key_ (by users who are willing to forego the default binding). The manual should not suggest that users bind any particular keys. It's OK for a 3rd-party library to suggest key bindings. It's not good for Emacs itself to do that. 3rd-party libraries are opt-in by users. Using one is like adding its feature/code to your init file - it's a user choice. The same isn't true of much of the code distributed by Emacs. And even when a distributed library (e.g. `dired-x.el') is opt-in, Emacs should not suggest bindings for its commands. "Suggestion" by Emacs is sometimes mistakenly taken by users as a "rule" or a convention. There's no good reason for Emacs to suggest that users use `C-z' for anything particular. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 06 13:38:47 2019 Received: (at 3540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Oct 2019 17:38:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46802 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iHAUY-0008Hu-Nl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 13:38:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58603) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iHAUU-0008Hc-7N for 3540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 13:38:45 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:60639) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iHAUN-0002Iu-LY; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 13:38:35 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2126 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1iHAUM-0005ct-Ho; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 13:38:35 -0400 Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2019 20:38:23 +0300 Message-Id: <837e5h3hbk.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Marcin Borkowski In-reply-to: <87y2xye4nz.fsf@mbork.pl> (message from Marcin Borkowski on Sun, 06 Oct 2019 09:04:00 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#3540: Please reserve a ctrl-key combination for interoperability References: <1244771200l.4854l.2l@mofo> <87y2xye4nz.fsf@mbork.pl> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 3540 Cc: kop@meme.com, stefan@marxist.se, 3540@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Marcin Borkowski > Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2019 09:04:00 +0200 > Cc: "Karl O. Pinc" , 3540@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Since this hasn't garnered support from more than one other user in the > > last 10 years, I'm therefore proposing to close this as wontfix. If > > anyone disagrees with that, please protest now, or I'll do that in a > > couple of weeks. > > As a partial solution, the manual *might* suggest to use C-z for that, I'd suggest C-F5 (or C-Fn for any n > 4). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 06 15:40:11 2019 Received: (at 3540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Oct 2019 19:40:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46918 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iHCO2-0003EV-R9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 15:40:11 -0400 Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([195.110.48.8]:43294) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iHCNy-0003EC-HF for 3540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 15:40:10 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3B0E64AB; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 21:40:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.mojserwer.eu Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mojserwer.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p2BYng3lceQs; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 21:39:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (jeden09-dwa27.echostar.pl [213.156.109.227]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A8312E642A; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 21:39:53 +0200 (CEST) References: <1244771200l.4854l.2l@mofo> <87y2xye4nz.fsf@mbork.pl> <0d884621-5d6e-47c6-8a0e-d70d4c09f15e@default> User-agent: mu4e 1.1.0; emacs 27.0.50 From: Marcin Borkowski To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#3540: Please reserve a ctrl-key combination for interoperability In-reply-to: <0d884621-5d6e-47c6-8a0e-d70d4c09f15e@default> Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2019 21:39:50 +0200 Message-ID: <87tv8lek8p.fsf@mbork.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 3540 Cc: "Karl O. Pinc" , Stefan Kangas , 3540@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 2019-10-06, at 18:10, Drew Adams wrote: >> As a partial solution, the manual *might* suggest to use C-z for that, >> especially that is is bounded to a 99.99% useless command by default >> (and using e.g. screen or tmux makes it 100% useless). > > No, please don't do that. IMO: > > `C-z' is better used by users and libraries as a > _prefix key_ (by users who are willing to forego > the default binding). Actually, that's what I do in my config. (Is there anyone who actually wants C-z's default binding???) > The manual should not suggest that users bind any > particular keys. It's OK for a 3rd-party library > to suggest key bindings. It's not good for Emacs > itself to do that. I'm not sure I agree. I'd welcome a list of bindings like C-z or M-o which do nothing useful by default. (In fact, I compiled such a list myself - http://mbork.pl/2019-03-18_Free_Emacs_key_bindings - but I'm not very happy with it.) > 3rd-party libraries are opt-in by users. Using > one is like adding its feature/code to your init > file - it's a user choice. > > The same isn't true of much of the code distributed > by Emacs. And even when a distributed library (e.g. > `dired-x.el') is opt-in, Emacs should not suggest > bindings for its commands. "Suggestion" by Emacs > is sometimes mistakenly taken by users as a "rule" > or a convention. That's why it should be made clear that it's a suggestion, like: "Many users find some commands not useful for them at all. They might want to rebind their keys to ones that they use frequently." > There's no good reason for Emacs to suggest that > users use `C-z' for anything particular. On the contrary, there is: the meaning of C-z is "I want to leave Emacs for a moment and be able to come back". If you use screen or tmux, you express the same wish by pressing a combo starting with the prefix key. Of course, I'm not insisting at all - just suggesting. Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 06 17:29:30 2019 Received: (at 3540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Oct 2019 21:29:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46953 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iHE5p-0006Gs-Le for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 17:29:30 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:33094) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iHE5o-0006GZ-1g for 3540@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 06 Oct 2019 17:29:28 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x96LTLgW160792; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 21:29:21 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2019-08-05; bh=yPSNBQCwt2yG24MBJlJDtF7gT+3/6XQMbJf/9p8zo6s=; b=UnpieoeAKBmd7Lk6NxOZGjU11WXljPv9EgR/Rf9eX4+F4/Xcx+Wyf0PipHkDwR2vaOcM 9EooBQN+WRair8RUGCJbi8D5VFcXun9/zOKvlB9xs9x2jZQ0SX8hamsr0jnNCpOnCaSf 2oisIQfJ5yWpa5ZL7YkwGFvgVXiH0H/LB30uRpqaXV3/QpbGrENvr5g3ZKfFhnU5+WUa 82rTwx9Deu8ZDHZrC08526RkG6bDZMtTN/v80s7zFIC23w5NmNksQxckEa5rQFD+yMtA bLcAeKYTG8JdwOM/RuWa/B3SZVUstiOHpsckEOOQNARLE3U2OYoxlviBeX1fSK1pkDUx SA== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2vektr3pmc-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 06 Oct 2019 21:29:21 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x96LSoa0038780; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 21:29:21 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2vf4pgcecn-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 06 Oct 2019 21:29:20 +0000 Received: from abhmp0018.oracle.com (abhmp0018.oracle.com [141.146.116.24]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id x96LTGwv014383; Sun, 6 Oct 2019 21:29:17 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <014ff1d6-9e7e-4bdf-88ed-eefc9133353d@default> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 14:29:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Marcin Borkowski Subject: RE: bug#3540: Please reserve a ctrl-key combination for interoperability References: <1244771200l.4854l.2l@mofo> <87y2xye4nz.fsf@mbork.pl> <0d884621-5d6e-47c6-8a0e-d70d4c09f15e@default> <87tv8lek8p.fsf@mbork.pl> In-Reply-To: <87tv8lek8p.fsf@mbork.pl> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4900.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9402 signatures=668684 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1908290000 definitions=main-1910060220 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9402 signatures=668684 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1908290000 definitions=main-1910060220 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 3540 Cc: "Karl O. Pinc" , Stefan Kangas , 3540@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Actually, that's what I do in my config. (Is there anyone who actually > wants C-z's default binding???) Dunno. But I use something very close to it (for GUI). It has the same behavior as the default command, unless you use a prefix arg: (defun iconify/show-frame (&optional all-action) "Iconify selected frame if now shown. Show it if now iconified. A non-negative prefix arg iconifies all shown frames. A negative prefix arg deiconifies all iconified frames." (interactive "P") (cond ((not all-action) (when rename-frame-when-iconify-flag (rename-non-minibuffer-frame)) (iconify-or-deiconify-frame)) ((natnump (prefix-numeric-value all-action)) (iconify-everything)) (t (deiconify-everything)))) ; <=3D=3D Emacs default But I'm not arguing to keep the default `C-z' binding. I'm really arguing against wasting `C-z' on something else, by default. Someday we'll come across a really important new feature that really deserves `C-z' (e.g. as a prefix key). Keys shouldn't be bound by default lightly. Once a key is bound by default it becomes harder to later remove or replace its binding. `C-z' is a wonderful key for general things, including use as a prefix key. (And if not a prefix key then at least for a repeatable command.) And it's as easy to reach as `C-x' on most keyboards. If ever there was a key that I don't think should be bound by default willy nilly (aka wasted, in my view), it's `C-z'. > > The manual should not suggest that users bind any > > particular keys. It's OK for a 3rd-party library > > to suggest key bindings. It's not good for Emacs > > itself to do that. >=20 > I'm not sure I agree. I'd welcome a list of bindings like C-z or M-o > which do nothing useful by default. (In fact, I compiled such a list > myself - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__mbork.pl_2= 019- > 2D03-2D18-5FFree-5FEmacs-5Fkey- > 5Fbindings&d=3DDwIBAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r= =3DkI3P6ljGv > 6CTHIKju0jqInF6AOwMCYRDQUmqX22rJ98&m=3DvtPmjCas97xufIKnzS06ZEh04AKsMp8iJj= - > 9W7kHURQ&s=3DzXD57trzqr01K4n0EBvwEqWYU6PCjR6gahEDtLcmms8&e=3D - but I'm > not very happy with it.) One person's not-very-useful is another's useful. And certainly the manual shouldn't suggest that users bind some key that has a default binding because that binding isn't very useful. If Emacs really thinks some default binding isn't very useful then it shouldn't bind it by default. > > 3rd-party libraries are opt-in by users. Using > > one is like adding its feature/code to your init > > file - it's a user choice. > > > > The same isn't true of much of the code distributed > > by Emacs. And even when a distributed library (e.g. > > `dired-x.el') is opt-in, Emacs should not suggest > > bindings for its commands. "Suggestion" by Emacs > > is sometimes mistakenly taken by users as a "rule" > > or a convention. >=20 > That's why it should be made clear that it's a suggestion, like: >=20 > "Many users find some commands not useful for them at all. They might > want to rebind their keys to ones that they use frequently." That's not helpful, IMO. Anyone can know that and do that, without Emacs suggesting to bind specific keys. And what one user finds not useful another one finds useful. (Why does "Many users..." remind me of DJT's "Many people are saying..."? ;-)) But sure, many users find some things not useful for them. Many users aren't even aware of much of Emacs. Most users, me included, use only a tiny bit of what Emacs offers. Users differ. Use cases differ. There are many ways to use Emacs. Any user who finds some key that is bound by default not to be useful can rebind it. That's not specific to any particular key. The doc should not be trying to find and inform about keys that "many users" find not so useful. > > There's no good reason for Emacs to suggest that > > users use `C-z' for anything particular. >=20 > On the contrary, there is: the meaning of C-z is "I want to leave Emacs > for a moment and be able to come back". Not in GUI Emacs, it's not, unless you consider iconifying to be "leaving Emacs". From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Oct 09 14:33:21 2019 Received: (at 3540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Oct 2019 18:33:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54100 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIGm1-0006pv-0V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:33:21 -0400 Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([195.110.48.8]:51056) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIGlt-0006pd-Dg for 3540@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:33:20 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27AA5E6CBE; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 20:33:10 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.mojserwer.eu Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mojserwer.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id otyrnP039-qy; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 20:33:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (jeden09-dwa27.echostar.pl [213.156.109.227]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 366CBE642A; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 20:33:06 +0200 (CEST) References: <1244771200l.4854l.2l@mofo> <87y2xye4nz.fsf@mbork.pl> <0d884621-5d6e-47c6-8a0e-d70d4c09f15e@default> <87tv8lek8p.fsf@mbork.pl> <014ff1d6-9e7e-4bdf-88ed-eefc9133353d@default> User-agent: mu4e 1.1.0; emacs 27.0.50 From: Marcin Borkowski To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#3540: Please reserve a ctrl-key combination for interoperability In-reply-to: <014ff1d6-9e7e-4bdf-88ed-eefc9133353d@default> Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 20:33:03 +0200 Message-ID: <8736g1epls.fsf@mbork.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 3540 Cc: "Karl O. Pinc" , Stefan Kangas , 3540@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 2019-10-06, at 23:29, Drew Adams wrote: >> Actually, that's what I do in my config. (Is there anyone who actually >> wants C-z's default binding???) > > Dunno. But I use something very close to it (for GUI). > It has the same behavior as the default command, unless > you use a prefix arg: > > (defun iconify/show-frame (&optional all-action) > "Iconify selected frame if now shown. Show it if now iconified. > A non-negative prefix arg iconifies all shown frames. > A negative prefix arg deiconifies all iconified frames." > (interactive "P") > (cond ((not all-action) > (when rename-frame-when-iconify-flag > (rename-non-minibuffer-frame)) > (iconify-or-deiconify-frame)) > ((natnump (prefix-numeric-value all-action)) > (iconify-everything)) > (t (deiconify-everything)))) ; <== Emacs default > > But I'm not arguing to keep the default `C-z' binding. > I'm really arguing against wasting `C-z' on something > else, by default. > > Someday we'll come across a really important new feature > that really deserves `C-z' (e.g. as a prefix key). Keys > shouldn't be bound by default lightly. Once a key is > bound by default it becomes harder to later remove or > replace its binding. > > `C-z' is a wonderful key for general things, including > use as a prefix key. (And if not a prefix key then at > least for a repeatable command.) And it's as easy to > reach as `C-x' on most keyboards. > > If ever there was a key that I don't think should be > bound by default willy nilly (aka wasted, in my view), > it's `C-z'. I agree. >> > The manual should not suggest that users bind any >> > particular keys. It's OK for a 3rd-party library >> > to suggest key bindings. It's not good for Emacs >> > itself to do that. >> >> I'm not sure I agree. I'd welcome a list of bindings like C-z or M-o >> which do nothing useful by default. (In fact, I compiled such a list >> myself - https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__mbork.pl_2019- >> 2D03-2D18-5FFree-5FEmacs-5Fkey- >> 5Fbindings&d=DwIBAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=kI3P6ljGv >> 6CTHIKju0jqInF6AOwMCYRDQUmqX22rJ98&m=vtPmjCas97xufIKnzS06ZEh04AKsMp8iJj- >> 9W7kHURQ&s=zXD57trzqr01K4n0EBvwEqWYU6PCjR6gahEDtLcmms8&e= - but I'm >> not very happy with it.) > > One person's not-very-useful is another's useful. Of course. > And certainly the manual shouldn't suggest that users > bind some key that has a default binding because that > binding isn't very useful. > > If Emacs really thinks some default binding isn't > very useful then it shouldn't bind it by default. Here I don't agree. Logically, you are of course right. Psychologically, many people hesitate to rebind default keys for various reasons. While it is unreasonable for the manual to suggest binding particular keys to particular commands, I would find it very reasonable to encourage users to customize Emacs, including rebinding keys - also the defaults. After all, customizability is one of Emacs' greatest strengths. It should be natural for the manual to encourage the users to take advantage of it. >> > 3rd-party libraries are opt-in by users. Using >> > one is like adding its feature/code to your init >> > file - it's a user choice. >> > >> > The same isn't true of much of the code distributed >> > by Emacs. And even when a distributed library (e.g. >> > `dired-x.el') is opt-in, Emacs should not suggest >> > bindings for its commands. "Suggestion" by Emacs >> > is sometimes mistakenly taken by users as a "rule" >> > or a convention. >> >> That's why it should be made clear that it's a suggestion, like: >> >> "Many users find some commands not useful for them at all. They might >> want to rebind their keys to ones that they use frequently." > > That's not helpful, IMO. Anyone can know that and > do that, without Emacs suggesting to bind specific > keys. And what one user finds not useful another one > finds useful. Again: logically, you're correct. But there is a huge gap between "knowing" and "doing". And some people (me included) could find such an ecouragement helpful. > (Why does "Many users..." remind me of DJT's "Many > people are saying..."? ;-)) I have no idea who or what DJT is. DuckDuckGo mentioned one of the better American presidents, is that what you meant? > But sure, many users find some things not useful for > them. Many users aren't even aware of much of Emacs. > Most users, me included, use only a tiny bit of what > Emacs offers. > > Users differ. Use cases differ. There are many ways > to use Emacs. > > Any user who finds some key that is bound by default > not to be useful can rebind it. That's not specific > to any particular key. The doc should not be trying > to find and inform about keys that "many users" find > not so useful. > >> > There's no good reason for Emacs to suggest that >> > users use `C-z' for anything particular. >> >> On the contrary, there is: the meaning of C-z is "I want to leave Emacs >> for a moment and be able to come back". > > Not in GUI Emacs, it's not, unless you consider > iconifying to be "leaving Emacs". While I do not consider iconifying to be "leaving Emacs", I think it can be described as "leaving Emacs for a moment", which is a very different concept. Again: I don't think this is so important to waste so much time discussing. I can live without any change in that department. But I guess that some encouragement to rebind keys in the manual could be beneficial. Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 10 07:04:32 2019 Received: (at 3540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Oct 2019 11:04:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55119 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIWFE-0004uc-I0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 07:04:32 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f193.google.com ([209.85.210.193]:40072) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iIWF9-0004tn-DJ for 3540@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 07:04:31 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f193.google.com with SMTP id x127so3665867pfb.7 for <3540@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 04:04:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WJ1thFbJAJ+PwN5x7cNg59EidHdmMevpr2LUYOd/TNM=; b=lJXGPqyGztyHDNCTsRxvv76L72t+xkomei/I6qfNXB6TgMk4FbYZ6aL7oLtFqBe62j +Zv6AuDaGM9KD5tvyj6dUHdoOhmWsPP52illbfoFpZ53mDZ/fIJbloZynUuLjrgzQ9Rb 933cEItLW5ioVfCtx+e/2OHO1VxggmamStWSrT9Potk6i4XlZ5O70tLxh0kq+j+yVwav 3ieu+vzVSBP0AfCHvFkWXCuJ85DIyTE86odcFVqGX3/CBkGcqXbeGTFfei2xHjTR8Brh bDuIDt+3aCAKMzI78fEI2DEN6QaFHLf/SS68HZ9S6JGqhN5GTY2x/uWipj+M3lD3lUwZ IxpA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXT3i7Z3yBpfDFNDP2RC0gSnw2cG2wFjSznLNPccT1PKl3Wbfb0 +UcAgZ/4q4e8WDDuFa+1XotULY0yA61SpcIHhFM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwrs/MpCgkru1qlWqK1asIDT7PZEylYpUikrcCeYonLF2D7NS5IsY07qlGbMjzLs46iBU1jnizvpIyeISyR56M= X-Received: by 2002:a62:8305:: with SMTP id h5mr9678850pfe.190.1570705461620; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 04:04:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1244771200l.4854l.2l@mofo> <87y2xye4nz.fsf@mbork.pl> <0d884621-5d6e-47c6-8a0e-d70d4c09f15e@default> <87tv8lek8p.fsf@mbork.pl> <014ff1d6-9e7e-4bdf-88ed-eefc9133353d@default> <8736g1epls.fsf@mbork.pl> In-Reply-To: <8736g1epls.fsf@mbork.pl> From: Stefan Kangas Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 13:04:10 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#3540: Please reserve a ctrl-key combination for interoperability To: Marcin Borkowski Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 3540 Cc: "Karl O. Pinc" , 3540@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Marcin Borkowski writes: > Psychologically, many people hesitate to rebind default keys for various > reasons. While it is unreasonable for the manual to suggest binding > particular keys to particular commands, I would find it very reasonable > to encourage users to customize Emacs, including rebinding keys - also > the defaults. To my mind, the manual already covers what you discuss above. The "Intro" section says: =E2=80=9CCustomizable=E2=80=9D means that you can easily alter the behav= ior of Emacs commands in simple ways. For instance, if you use a programming language in which comments start with =E2=80=98<**=E2=80=99 and end with = =E2=80=98**>=E2=80=99, you can tell the Emacs comment manipulation commands to use those strings (*note Comments::). To take another example, you can rebind the basic cursor motion commands (up, down, left and right) to any keys on the keyboard that you find comfortable. *Note Customization::. That said, we can of course always do better. I believe it would be easier to discuss a more concrete proposal. Would anyone be willing to propose a patch? Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Nov 17 15:41:36 2019 Received: (at 3540-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Nov 2019 20:41:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42729 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iWRMT-0007dn-64 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 15:41:33 -0500 Received: from ted.gofardesign.uk ([67.225.143.91]:57914) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iWRMQ-0007dW-Tm for 3540-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 15:41:31 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=marxist.se; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=6uTu+KaXM4Gn8vycEzo7j3PS9ylKr1IAIYIl0Zhf6ZY=; b=CyETYE2IjzfS/5e+eFODA4n6JW /MEZ976gfu0STlNeiAoHUqkegv9eTD7ii0naFy0OJxlZmEmTEy0xZpb734oOYV+UjUcTcllS2j7PL ugrj0oOSsyLa6F+tMuiCwOB/qtdGepncP6c6RriLMDjqx145bQQ1cdP/X6+iN+zejLJlSYabjnlGr 9JCgVOlWtUtcrZLAcy8/DOEBvU/jaRXBIZn1vuxe8M9JeKKEcXvI7qGfVRkEq7AuBoUgnt7/lefVY 7zuASGGT0sTa8QxYRXIrZx8/jHxAjbA6Pmw5myQkoqjLbel9G6V/3y95smRGahYNzMcZtmGUN5sYv ng/tuQaA==; Received: from h-70-69.a785.priv.bahnhof.se ([155.4.70.69]:36934 helo=localhost) by ted.gofardesign.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iWRMG-000jPC-2R; Sun, 17 Nov 2019 15:41:20 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas To: Marcin Borkowski Subject: Re: bug#3540: Please reserve a ctrl-key combination for interoperability In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Thu, 10 Oct 2019 13:04:10 +0200") References: <1244771200l.4854l.2l@mofo> <87y2xye4nz.fsf@mbork.pl> <0d884621-5d6e-47c6-8a0e-d70d4c09f15e@default> <87tv8lek8p.fsf@mbork.pl> <014ff1d6-9e7e-4bdf-88ed-eefc9133353d@default> <8736g1epls.fsf@mbork.pl> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 21:41:17 +0100 Message-ID: <87sgmmme1e.fsf@marxist.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ted.gofardesign.uk X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - debbugs.gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - marxist.se X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: ted.gofardesign.uk: authenticated_id: stefan@marxist.se X-Authenticated-Sender: ted.gofardesign.uk: stefan@marxist.se X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 3540-done Cc: 3540-done@debbugs.gnu.org, "Karl O. Pinc" , Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas writes: > Marcin Borkowski writes: > >> Psychologically, many people hesitate to rebind default keys for various >> reasons. While it is unreasonable for the manual to suggest binding >> particular keys to particular commands, I would find it very reasonable >> to encourage users to customize Emacs, including rebinding keys - also >> the defaults. > > To my mind, the manual already covers what you discuss above. The > "Intro" section says: > > =E2=80=9CCustomizable=E2=80=9D means that you can easily alter the beh= avior of Emacs > commands in simple ways. For instance, if you use a programming > language in which comments start with =E2=80=98<**=E2=80=99 and end with = =E2=80=98**>=E2=80=99, you can > tell the Emacs comment manipulation commands to use those strings (*note > Comments::). To take another example, you can rebind the basic cursor > motion commands (up, down, left and right) to any keys on the keyboard > that you find comfortable. *Note Customization::. > > That said, we can of course always do better. I believe it would be > easier to discuss a more concrete proposal. Would anyone be willing > to propose a patch? Since no one has proposed any concrete changes within 5 weeks, I'll go ahead and close this bug. As I write above, we already highlight the possibility to change key bindings in the "Intro" section of the manual. There also didn't seem to be any big enthusiasm for reserving any new key bindings either. If anyone disagrees with that, please reopen the bug. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 23 18:38:15 2019 Received: (at 3540) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Nov 2019 23:38:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57970 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iYeyf-00083c-EL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2019 18:38:12 -0500 Received: from ted.gofardesign.uk ([67.225.143.91]:39450) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iYeya-00082x-G3; Sat, 23 Nov 2019 18:38:05 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=marxist.se; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=qB+DUG+MmCfMUI/oXuw4bkNM17cZKCWsc3K5r7Ff2t0=; b=QzzSviwDMQ7vC29thabzKSKLgK 0XuSNS1bFPenKTCEi6OPMiuAZ+ek2NJvlxZkc33gimZ0uC58zsDL9ZQBGf8/SUPW84oouxMyHh0/L jftCXZ/duK2vcFw+TLnhpWKpgeECYYErDqkhp6dUH1K3qTkoWF/5Wj1Wgtdg84wD+Oktboo+eJlEF Ap9rPbtmnFnXpf73Rm0aVp/yWFJYda3VNV+rVBAjTXemG0i+hSy4BJMQDkQGu4hKYT8aUtXNm1aee nL+S7Zu/dQwE+42HdxFPNkqEEmTwJRDQx7DQt6zKAIuC+kDotin2T4PPI3H5SRJEOdsGDrL1LwPyj DP+WolkA==; Received: from h-70-69.a785.priv.bahnhof.se ([155.4.70.69]:50648 helo=localhost) by ted.gofardesign.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iYeyO-001fo8-OO; Sat, 23 Nov 2019 18:37:53 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas To: Marcin Borkowski Subject: Re: bug#3540: Please reserve a ctrl-key combination for interoperability In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Thu, 10 Oct 2019 13:04:10 +0200") References: <1244771200l.4854l.2l@mofo> <87y2xye4nz.fsf@mbork.pl> <0d884621-5d6e-47c6-8a0e-d70d4c09f15e@default> <87tv8lek8p.fsf@mbork.pl> <014ff1d6-9e7e-4bdf-88ed-eefc9133353d@default> <8736g1epls.fsf@mbork.pl> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 00:37:50 +0100 Message-ID: <877e3qkvu9.fsf@marxist.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ted.gofardesign.uk X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - debbugs.gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - marxist.se X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: ted.gofardesign.uk: authenticated_id: stefan@marxist.se X-Authenticated-Sender: ted.gofardesign.uk: stefan@marxist.se X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 3540 Cc: "Karl O. Pinc" , Drew Adams , 3540@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 3540 + notabug wontfix close 3540 thanks Stefan Kangas writes: > Marcin Borkowski writes: > >> Psychologically, many people hesitate to rebind default keys for various >> reasons. While it is unreasonable for the manual to suggest binding >> particular keys to particular commands, I would find it very reasonable >> to encourage users to customize Emacs, including rebinding keys - also >> the defaults. > > To my mind, the manual already covers what you discuss above. The > "Intro" section says: > > =E2=80=9CCustomizable=E2=80=9D means that you can easily alter the beh= avior of Emacs > commands in simple ways. For instance, if you use a programming > language in which comments start with =E2=80=98<**=E2=80=99 and end with = =E2=80=98**>=E2=80=99, you can > tell the Emacs comment manipulation commands to use those strings (*note > Comments::). To take another example, you can rebind the basic cursor > motion commands (up, down, left and right) to any keys on the keyboard > that you find comfortable. *Note Customization::. No further comments within 5 weeks, and it doesn't seem like there's anything to do here. I'm therefore closing this bug. If anyone disagrees with that, feel free to reopen the bug report, or just reply back to state your opinion. If anyone does that, may I suggest to then also include a suggestion for what to do. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From unknown Tue Aug 19 02:59:05 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2019 12:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator