GNU bug report logs - #34357
Non-Emacs feeling

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Ulrich Windl" <Ulrich.Windl <at> rz.uni-regensburg.de>
To: <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Non-Emacs feeling
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2019 23:30:29 +0100

Hi!

This is a bug report not so much against GNU Emacs, but against the users who changed Emacs recently. To me it seems some users do not understand the spirit of Emacs when making changes. If you don't like Emacs, use another editor, but do not make Emacs like other editors!

Two examples:

1: Since some versions you cannot autocomplete the buffer you are visiting any more: A typical use-case is that you want to visit the buffer you are editing in another window, like after C-x 4 b. Now you must completely type the buffer name, an absolute mis-feature!

2: When long lines are being displayed, mark up and down do not change the position to the next logical line (as defined by the buffer), but to the displayed line (subject to screen and font size). If you are at the beginning of a long line, and you want to move to the next line (maybe to insert something), this "change"  is a nightmare. I know it can be customized, but why is the incompatible stupid setting the new default?

I could also mention half-window vertical scrolling...


Regards,
Ulrich Windl

Message #8 received at 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Brett Gilio <brettg <at> posteo.net>
To: Ulrich Windl <Ulrich.Windl <at> rz.uni-regensburg.de>
Cc: 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#34357: Non-Emacs feeling
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2019 16:57:54 -0600

Ulrich Windl writes:

> Hi!
>
> This is a bug report not so much against GNU Emacs, but against the users who changed Emacs recently. To me it seems some users do not understand the spirit of Emacs when making changes. If you don't like Emacs, use another editor, but do not make Emacs like other editors!
>
> Two examples:
>
> 1: Since some versions you cannot autocomplete the buffer you are visiting any more: A typical use-case is that you want to visit the buffer you are editing in another window, like after C-x 4 b. Now you must completely type the buffer name, an absolute mis-feature!
>
> 2: When long lines are being displayed, mark up and down do not change the position to the next logical line (as defined by the buffer), but to the displayed line (subject to screen and font size). If you are at the beginning of a long line, and you want to move to the next line (maybe to insert something), this "change"  is a nightmare. I know it can be customized, but why is the incompatible stupid setting the new default?
>
> I could also mention half-window vertical scrolling...
>
>
> Regards,
> Ulrich Windl

Agree or disagree with what you are saying, what was the point of your
email? If you have an issue with certain implementations, I think it'd
be best that we are explicit in the details of that implementation
which we are critiquing. That is the tendency of free software in
general, as we are all responsible for how it works.

Message #11 received at 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Brett Gilio <brettg <at> posteo.net>
To: Ulrich Windl <Ulrich.Windl <at> rz.uni-regensburg.de>
Cc: 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#34357: Non-Emacs feeling
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2019 16:58:35 -0600

Ulrich Windl writes:

> Hi!
>
> This is a bug report not so much against GNU Emacs, but against the users who changed Emacs recently. To me it seems some users do not understand the spirit of Emacs when making changes. If you don't like Emacs, use another editor, but do not make Emacs like other editors!
>
> Two examples:
>
> 1: Since some versions you cannot autocomplete the buffer you are visiting any more: A typical use-case is that you want to visit the buffer you are editing in another window, like after C-x 4 b. Now you must completely type the buffer name, an absolute mis-feature!
>
> 2: When long lines are being displayed, mark up and down do not change the position to the next logical line (as defined by the buffer), but to the displayed line (subject to screen and font size). If you are at the beginning of a long line, and you want to move to the next line (maybe to insert something), this "change"  is a nightmare. I know it can be customized, but why is the incompatible stupid setting the new default?
>
> I could also mention half-window vertical scrolling...
>
>
> Regards,
> Ulrich Windl

To be more explicit in my last email, since this is a "bug report". What
exactly are you wanting changed to "close" the bug?

Message #14 received at 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Ulrich Windl" <Ulrich.Windl <at> rz.uni-regensburg.de>
To: <brettg <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Antw: Re: bug#34357: Non-Emacs feeling
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2019 00:12:49 +0100

Hi!

Maybe show the rationale for changing 1: and 2:. Probably even with knowing those, I'd still want the previous behavior back.

Regards,
Ulrich


>>> Brett Gilio <brettg <at> posteo.net> 06.02.19 23.58 Uhr >>>

Ulrich Windl writes:

> Hi!
>
> This is a bug report not so much against GNU Emacs, but against the users who changed Emacs recently. To me it seems some users do not understand the spirit of Emacs when making changes. If you don't like Emacs, use another editor, but do not make Emacs like other editors!
>
> Two examples:
>
> 1: Since some versions you cannot autocomplete the buffer you are visiting any more: A typical use-case is that you want to visit the buffer you are editing in another window, like after C-x 4 b. Now you must completely type the buffer name, an absolute mis-feature!
>
> 2: When long lines are being displayed, mark up and down do not change the position to the next logical line (as defined by the buffer), but to the displayed line (subject to screen and font size). If you are at the beginning of a long line, and you want to move to the next line (maybe to insert something), this "change"  is a nightmare. I know it can be customized, but why is the incompatible stupid setting the new default?
>
> I could also mention half-window vertical scrolling...
>
>
> Regards,
> Ulrich Windl

To be more explicit in my last email, since this is a "bug report". What
exactly are you wanting changed to "close" the bug?

Message #21 received at 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: "Ulrich Windl" <Ulrich.Windl <at> rz.uni-regensburg.de>
Cc: 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#34357: Non-Emacs feeling
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2019 18:46:37 -0500

"Ulrich Windl" wrote:

> 1: Since some versions you cannot autocomplete the buffer you are
> visiting any more: A typical use-case is that you want to visit the
> buffer you are editing in another window, like after C-x 4 b. Now you
> must completely type the buffer name, an absolute mis-feature!

This is https://debbugs.gnu.org/12916 and bug#9598. You will find
discussion there.

> 2: When long lines are being displayed, mark up and down do not change
> the position to the next logical line (as defined by the buffer), but
> to the displayed line (subject to screen and font size). If you are at
> the beginning of a long line, and you want to move to the next line
> (maybe to insert something), this "change" is a nightmare. I know it
> can be customized, but why is the incompatible stupid setting the new
> default?

This changed in Emacs 23.1. I'm sure if you search mailing lists you
will find discussions from around that time. It was 10 years ago.


With that, I'm closing this report.

Message #26 received at 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, Ulrich Windl
 <Ulrich.Windl <at> rz.uni-regensburg.de>
Cc: 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#34357: Non-Emacs feeling
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 23:56:48 +0000 (UTC)

> > 1: Since some versions you cannot autocomplete the buffer you are
> > visiting any more: A typical use-case is that you want to visit the
> > buffer you are editing in another window, like after C-x 4 b. Now you
> > must completely type the buffer name, an absolute mis-feature!
> 
> This is https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
> 3A__debbugs.gnu.org_12916&d=DwIBAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB6
> 5eapI_JnE&r=kI3P6ljGv6CTHIKju0jqInF6AOwMCYRDQUmqX22rJ98&m=KmSwmwbI8AAJl
> Oeq0ixSIDteKnpu_Cha09EMxTOdtl0&s=78IdDq_cMz2KFaVL2WvB8YLpc83ztMnbuI4HPQ
> WJ--s&e= and bug#9598. You will find
> discussion there.
> 
> > 2: When long lines are being displayed, mark up and down do not
> change
> > the position to the next logical line (as defined by the buffer), but
> > to the displayed line (subject to screen and font size). If you are
> at
> > the beginning of a long line, and you want to move to the next line
> > (maybe to insert something), this "change" is a nightmare. I know it
> > can be customized, but why is the incompatible stupid setting the new
> > default?
> 
> This changed in Emacs 23.1. I'm sure if you search mailing lists you
> will find discussions from around that time. It was 10 years ago.
> 
> 
> With that, I'm closing this report.

Why not consider #1 to be an _enhancement request_ to
add a user option expressing the behavior preference
(i.e. whether `C-x b' offers the current buffer as one
of the completion candidates).

A user requests an alternate behavior - a behavior that
is not difficult to realize.  S?he's entitled to file
an enhancement request for that.  Just because Emacs
currently has some behavior that does not mean that
someone can't request a change to optionally allow a
different behavior.  And the use case presented seems
reasonable.

Message #29 received at 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Ulrich Windl <Ulrich.Windl <at> rz.uni-regensburg.de>, 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#34357: Non-Emacs feeling
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2019 08:54:53 +0100

Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> writes:

> "Ulrich Windl" wrote:
>
>> 1: Since some versions you cannot autocomplete the buffer you are
>> visiting any more: A typical use-case is that you want to visit the
>> buffer you are editing in another window, like after C-x 4 b. Now you
>> must completely type the buffer name, an absolute mis-feature!
>
> This is https://debbugs.gnu.org/12916 and bug#9598. You will find
> discussion there.
>

I must be missing something:

emacs -Q
C-x C-f foo.txt
C-x b
foo TAB -> foo.txt
RET 

(with latest master)

Robert

Message #32 received at 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at>
To: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>, Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Ulrich Windl <Ulrich.Windl <at> rz.uni-regensburg.de>, 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#34357: Non-Emacs feeling
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2019 10:21:27 +0100

> I must be missing something:
>
> emacs -Q
> C-x C-f foo.txt
> C-x b
> foo TAB -> foo.txt
> RET
>
> (with latest master)

Ulrich probably means

emacs -Q
C-x C-f foo.el
C-x C-f foo.txt
C-x b
foo TAB -> foo.el
TAB -> foo.el [Sole Completion]

martin

Message #35 received at 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at>, Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>, Glenn
 Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Ulrich Windl <Ulrich.Windl <at> rz.uni-regensburg.de>, 34357 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#34357: Non-Emacs feeling
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 06:48:13 -0800 (PST)

>  > I must be missing something:
>  > emacs -Q
>  > C-x C-f foo.txt
>  > C-x b
>  > foo TAB -> foo.txt
>  > RET
> 
> Ulrich probably means
> emacs -Q
> C-x C-f foo.el
> C-x C-f foo.txt
> C-x b
> foo TAB -> foo.el
> TAB -> foo.el [Sole Completion]

Yes, I think so.  Also:

emacs -Q
C-x b foo
C-x b TAB

emacs -Q
C-x C-f foo.txt
C-x b TAB

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