From unknown Wed Jun 18 23:09:21 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#33787 <33787@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#33787 <33787@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior Reply-To: bug#33787 <33787@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 06:09:21 +0000 retitle 33787 Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure defaul= t system behavior reassign 33787 coreutils submitter 33787 L A Walsh severity 33787 wishlist tag 33787 wontfix thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 18 02:13:15 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Dec 2018 07:13:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52542 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gZ9Z5-0004Bj-MW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 02:13:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:55065) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gZ9Z4-0004BV-3j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 02:13:14 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gZ9Yy-0000sN-4O for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 02:13:09 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:38007) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gZ9Yx-0000rz-BE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 02:13:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36415) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gZ9Yw-0003D5-8U for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 02:13:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gZ9Ys-0000h2-Qw for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 02:13:06 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:40344 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gZ9Yo-0000Za-TX for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 02:13:00 -0500 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id wBI7CqmM057762 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:12:54 -0800 Message-ID: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:12:51 -0800 From: L A Walsh User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Coreutils Subject: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (no timestamps) [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) Over the past few years I have has for the ability to set defaults for my system regarding various behaviors in coreutil programs. Some of the these behaviors have been regulated via ENV vars in the past, but I was told that this was not desirable as gnu was trying to get away from using ENV vars to regulate a person's util behavior in their environment. I suggested using a config file in /etc as an alternative and was told "no way". However, now I find that /etc/xattr.conf is being used to regulate behavior in gnu tools. Given the acceptance of such config files I would like see a single file /etc/gnu.conf hold configs for any gnu tool. In it should be options for configuration by function and tool, with tool-specific options overriding function-specific options. An additional selector should be if the behavior is configured for "interactive" use vs. "script" use. Now I suspect that people will want these options to be configurable by user and not just at a system level -- so ideally, there would be a '~/.gnurc' file for user overrides. Examples of configurable items: Default quoting and sorting Default TAB expansion (both tab column and expansion to space) Default aliases for existing long options. Default algorithm usage (if using depth-first processing, no pre-processing of names in non-depth-first order). Default addition of optional path elements ("find" processing) Default per-unit prefixes and their values. The above should not be taken as a comprehensive list, but as possible examples of included items. Maybe I can go back and resubmit several bugs that would benefit from this new policy? L Walsh From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 20 16:59:15 2018 Received: (at 33787) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Dec 2018 21:59:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56848 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga6Lb-0005ln-80 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:59:15 -0500 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:54952) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga6LZ-0005lc-VN for 33787@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:59:14 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECC92160B89; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:59:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id b4MeAfY1hgnC; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:59:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 087CC160BAE; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:59:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id NS3xGHl38sOq; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:59:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DDC88160935; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:59:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior To: L A Walsh , 33787@debbugs.gnu.org References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> From: Paul Eggert Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=eggert@cs.ucla.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBEyAcmQBEADAAyH2xoTu7ppG5D3a8FMZEon74dCvc4+q1XA2J2tBy2pwaTqfhpxxdGA9 Jj50UJ3PD4bSUEgN8tLZ0san47l5XTAFLi2456ciSl5m8sKaHlGdt9XmAAtmXqeZVIYX/UFS 96fDzf4xhEmm/y7LbYEPQdUdxu47xA5KhTYp5bltF3WYDz1Ygd7gx07Auwp7iw7eNvnoDTAl KAl8KYDZzbDNCQGEbpY3efZIvPdeI+FWQN4W+kghy+P6au6PrIIhYraeua7XDdb2LS1en3Ss mE3QjqfRqI/A2ue8JMwsvXe/WK38Ezs6x74iTaqI3AFH6ilAhDqpMnd/msSESNFt76DiO1ZK QMr9amVPknjfPmJISqdhgB1DlEdw34sROf6V8mZw0xfqT6PKE46LcFefzs0kbg4GORf8vjG2 Sf1tk5eU8MBiyN/bZ03bKNjNYMpODDQQwuP84kYLkX2wBxxMAhBxwbDVZudzxDZJ1C2VXujC OJVxq2kljBM9ETYuUGqd75AW2LXrLw6+MuIsHFAYAgRr7+KcwDgBAfwhPBYX34nSSiHlmLC+ KaHLeCLF5ZI2vKm3HEeCTtlOg7xZEONgwzL+fdKo+D6SoC8RRxJKs8a3sVfI4t6CnrQzvJbB n6gxdgCu5i29J1QCYrCYvql2UyFPAK+do99/1jOXT4m2836j1wARAQABzSBQYXVsIEVnZ2Vy dCA8ZWdnZXJ0QGNzLnVjbGEuZWR1PsLBfgQTAQIAKAUCTIByZAIbAwUJEswDAAYLCQgHAwIG FQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ7ZfpDmKqfjRRGw/+Ij03dhYfYl/gXVRiuzV1gGrbHk+t nfrI/C7fAeoFzQ5tVgVinShaPkZo0HTPf18x6IDEdAiO8Mqo1yp0CtHmzGMCJ50o4Grgfjlr 6g/+vtEOKbhleszN2XpJvpwM2QgGvn/laTLUu8PH9aRWTs7qJJZKKKAb4sxYc92FehPu6FOD 0dDiyhlDAq4lOV2mdBpzQbiojoZzQLMQwjpgCTK2572eK9EOEQySUThXrSIz6ASenp4NYTFH s9tuJQvXk9gZDdPSl3bp+47dGxlxEWLpBIM7zIONw4ks4azgT8nvDZxA5IZHtvqBlJLBObYY 0Le61Wp0y3TlBDh2qdK8eYL426W4scEMSuig5gb8OAtQiBW6k2sGUxxeiv8ovWu8YAZgKJfu oWI+uRnMEddruY8JsoM54KaKvZikkKs2bg1ndtLVzHpJ6qFZC7QVjeHUh6/BmgvdjWPZYFTt N+KA9CWX3GQKKgN3uu988yznD7LnB98T4EUH1HA/GnfBqMV1gpzTvPc4qVQinCmIkEFp83zl +G5fCjJJ3W7ivzCnYo4KhKLpFUm97okTKR2LW3xZzEW4cLSWO387MTK3CzDOx5qe6s4a91Zu ZM/j/TQdTLDaqNn83kA4Hq48UHXYxcIh+Nd8k/3w6lFuoK0wrOFiywjLx+0ur5jmmbecBGHc 1xdhAFHOwU0ETIByZAEQAKaF678T9wyH4wjTrV1Pz3cDEoSnV/0ZUrOT37p1dcGyj/IXq1x6 70HRVahAmk0sZpYc25PF9D5GPYHFWlNjuPU96rDndXB3hedmBRhLdC4bAXjI4DV+bmdVe+q/ IMnlZRaVlm9EiMCVAR6w13sReu7qXkW9r3RwY2AzXskp/tAe4BRKr1Zmbvi2nbnQ6epEC42r Rbx0B1EhjbIQZ5JHGk24iPT7LdBgnNmos5wYjzwNlkMQD5T0Ydzhk7J+UxwA5m46mOhRDC2r FV/A0gm5TLy8DXjv/Esc4gYnYai6SQqnUEVh5LuV8YCJBnijs+Tiw71x1icmn6xGI45EugJO gec+rLypYgpVp4x0HI5T88qBRYCkxH3Kg8Qo+EWNA9A4LRQ9DX8njona0gf0s03tocK8kBN6 6UoqqPtHBnc4eMgBymCflK12eKfd2YYxnyg9cZazWA5VslvTxpm76hbg5oiAEH/Vg/8MxHyA nPhfrgwyPrmJEcVBafdspJnYQxBYNco2LFPIhlOvWh8r4at+s+M3Lb26oUTczlgdW1Sf3SDA 77BMRnF0FQyE+7AzV79MBN4ykiqaezQxtaF1Fy/tvkhffSo8u+dwG0EgJh+te38gTcISVr0G IPplLz6YhjrbHrPRF1CN5UuL9DBGjxuN35RLNVEfta6RUFlR6NctTjvrABEBAAHCwWUEGAEC AA8FAkyAcmQCGwwFCRLMAwAACgkQ7ZfpDmKqfjSrHA/+KzAKvTxRhA9MWNLxIyJ7S5uJ16gs T3oCjZrBKGEhKMOGX4O0GA6VOEryO7QRCCYah3oxSG38IAnNeiwJXgU9Bzkk85UGbPEd7HGF /VSeHCQwWou6jqUDTSDvn9YhNTdG0KXPM74aC+xr2Zow1O2mhXihgWKD0Dw+0LYPnUOsQ0KO FxHXXYHmRrS1OZPU59BLvc+TRhIhafSHKLwbXK+6ckkxBx6h8z5ccpG0Qs4bFhdFYnFrEieD LoGmnE2YLhdV6swJ9VNCS6pLiEohT3fm7aXm15tZOIyzMZhHRSAPblXxQ0ZSWjq8oRrcYNFx c4W1URpAkBCOYJoXvQfD5L3lqAl8TCqDUzYxhH/tJhbDdHrqHH767jaDaTB1+Talp/2AMKwc XNOdiklGxbmHVG6YGl6g8Lrbsu9NZEI4yLlHzuikthJWgz+3vZhVGyNlt+HNIoF6CjDL2omu 5cEq4RDHM44QqPk6l7O0pUvN1mT4B+S1b08RKpqm/ff015E37HNV/piIvJlxGAYz8PSfuGCB 1thMYqlmgdhd9/BabGFbGGYHA6U4/T5zqU+f6xHy1SsAQZ1MSKlLwekBIT+4/cLRGqCHjnV0 q5H/T6a7t5mPkbzSrOLSo4puj+IToNjYyYIDBWzhlA19avOa+rvUjmHtD3sFN7cXWtkGoi8b uNcby4U= Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:59:06 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 33787 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On 12/17/18 11:12 PM, L A Walsh wrote: > I find that /etc/xattr.conf is being used to > regulate behavior in gnu tools. Sure, just as lots of other system configuration files do, e.g., /etc/passwd. But these files are intended to act globally throughout the operating system; they're not an exception to the rule that coreutils itself is supposed to portable. Coreutils should not behave differently on different hosts merely because the coreutils installer on one platform prefers behavior A whereas the installer on another platform prefers behavior B. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 20 17:41:15 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Dec 2018 22:41:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56878 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga70F-0006pn-A4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:41:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:51355) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga70D-0006pY-GP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:41:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga707-0001FF-Lx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:41:08 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:36246) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga707-0001Ep-9A for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:41:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60947) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga706-0002Mj-H7 for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:41:07 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga701-000169-Db for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:41:06 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:55022 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga701-00013M-3H for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:41:01 -0500 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id wBKMemKQ093319; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:40:50 -0800 Message-ID: <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:40:48 -0800 From: L A Walsh User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (no timestamps) [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Coreutils X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) But coreutils already does act differenty based on what local libraries it pulls in at runtime. If you want to ensure they have the same behavior then they'd be statically linked. Second, coreutils behaves differently depending on the contents of xattr.conf -- any util that deals with files will need to have a look at that. Third, coreutils behaves differently based on what is installed with alternate versions of various programs, including coreutils being configured for use on a system-by-system basis. On more than one coreutils-including system, I see coreutil programs replaced with alternate versions like from BSD because the bsd version was more user friendly. Coreutils should service the owner of the system. They should not be like a virus or malware that can change behavior at the behest of the util-maintainer against what users want. This has been what is happening. I'm suggesting a way for coreutils to better serve the users of these programs. Note -- there is facility for separating behaviors desired for scripts vs. those desired for interactive use. It has been my intent that behaviors for scripts could advise users to accept defaults to provide for script portability between systems. But for interactive use, I can make the statement that coreutils should not go against what users want and have non-optional/non-configurable changes made to defaults against their will. That's the behavior of malware. Foremost, software should be user friendly -- something many if not most software developers have forgotten. It's there to service the users. Not to control them and force them to do things in a way they are not comfortable with or that causes them unnecessary grief. Those things said, coreutils apparently is already using xattr.conf and my proposal is to fold that into a gnu.conf where other utils can store config ops, or go ahead and provide gnu.conf even if xattr.conf doesn't want to fold in to allow more flexibiltiy At this point, all I'm trying to do is to gather xattr.conf into one place, 'gnu.conf', so that users can know to pay attention to it. Notice I'm naming it 'gnu.conf' and not coreutils.conf -- I'm not intending this to be limited to coreutils. On 12/20/2018 1:59 PM, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 12/17/18 11:12 PM, L A Walsh wrote: >> I find that /etc/xattr.conf is being used to >> regulate behavior in gnu tools. > > Sure, just as lots of other system configuration files do, e.g., > /etc/passwd. But these files are intended to act globally throughout the > operating system; they're not an exception to the rule that coreutils > itself is supposed to portable. > > Coreutils should not behave differently on different hosts merely > because the coreutils installer on one platform prefers behavior A > whereas the installer on another platform prefers behavior B. > From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 20 17:58:43 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Dec 2018 22:58:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56882 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga7H8-0007El-Qb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:58:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:56457) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga7H6-0007EZ-S5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:58:41 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga7Gz-0002yT-NM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:58:34 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:58156) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga7Gy-0002xB-J9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:58:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37832) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga7Gx-0007KH-RB for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:58:32 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga7Gt-0002qM-PY for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:58:31 -0500 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:42358) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga7Gt-0002lx-EQ for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:58:27 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A48160A71; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:58:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id x5DVTYoqKfTw; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:58:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3CE6160CEB; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:58:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id bEdrgKXC0l1L; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:58:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B8114160A55; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:58:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior To: L A Walsh References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> From: Paul Eggert Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=eggert@cs.ucla.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBEyAcmQBEADAAyH2xoTu7ppG5D3a8FMZEon74dCvc4+q1XA2J2tBy2pwaTqfhpxxdGA9 Jj50UJ3PD4bSUEgN8tLZ0san47l5XTAFLi2456ciSl5m8sKaHlGdt9XmAAtmXqeZVIYX/UFS 96fDzf4xhEmm/y7LbYEPQdUdxu47xA5KhTYp5bltF3WYDz1Ygd7gx07Auwp7iw7eNvnoDTAl KAl8KYDZzbDNCQGEbpY3efZIvPdeI+FWQN4W+kghy+P6au6PrIIhYraeua7XDdb2LS1en3Ss mE3QjqfRqI/A2ue8JMwsvXe/WK38Ezs6x74iTaqI3AFH6ilAhDqpMnd/msSESNFt76DiO1ZK QMr9amVPknjfPmJISqdhgB1DlEdw34sROf6V8mZw0xfqT6PKE46LcFefzs0kbg4GORf8vjG2 Sf1tk5eU8MBiyN/bZ03bKNjNYMpODDQQwuP84kYLkX2wBxxMAhBxwbDVZudzxDZJ1C2VXujC OJVxq2kljBM9ETYuUGqd75AW2LXrLw6+MuIsHFAYAgRr7+KcwDgBAfwhPBYX34nSSiHlmLC+ KaHLeCLF5ZI2vKm3HEeCTtlOg7xZEONgwzL+fdKo+D6SoC8RRxJKs8a3sVfI4t6CnrQzvJbB n6gxdgCu5i29J1QCYrCYvql2UyFPAK+do99/1jOXT4m2836j1wARAQABzSBQYXVsIEVnZ2Vy dCA8ZWdnZXJ0QGNzLnVjbGEuZWR1PsLBfgQTAQIAKAUCTIByZAIbAwUJEswDAAYLCQgHAwIG FQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ7ZfpDmKqfjRRGw/+Ij03dhYfYl/gXVRiuzV1gGrbHk+t nfrI/C7fAeoFzQ5tVgVinShaPkZo0HTPf18x6IDEdAiO8Mqo1yp0CtHmzGMCJ50o4Grgfjlr 6g/+vtEOKbhleszN2XpJvpwM2QgGvn/laTLUu8PH9aRWTs7qJJZKKKAb4sxYc92FehPu6FOD 0dDiyhlDAq4lOV2mdBpzQbiojoZzQLMQwjpgCTK2572eK9EOEQySUThXrSIz6ASenp4NYTFH s9tuJQvXk9gZDdPSl3bp+47dGxlxEWLpBIM7zIONw4ks4azgT8nvDZxA5IZHtvqBlJLBObYY 0Le61Wp0y3TlBDh2qdK8eYL426W4scEMSuig5gb8OAtQiBW6k2sGUxxeiv8ovWu8YAZgKJfu oWI+uRnMEddruY8JsoM54KaKvZikkKs2bg1ndtLVzHpJ6qFZC7QVjeHUh6/BmgvdjWPZYFTt N+KA9CWX3GQKKgN3uu988yznD7LnB98T4EUH1HA/GnfBqMV1gpzTvPc4qVQinCmIkEFp83zl +G5fCjJJ3W7ivzCnYo4KhKLpFUm97okTKR2LW3xZzEW4cLSWO387MTK3CzDOx5qe6s4a91Zu ZM/j/TQdTLDaqNn83kA4Hq48UHXYxcIh+Nd8k/3w6lFuoK0wrOFiywjLx+0ur5jmmbecBGHc 1xdhAFHOwU0ETIByZAEQAKaF678T9wyH4wjTrV1Pz3cDEoSnV/0ZUrOT37p1dcGyj/IXq1x6 70HRVahAmk0sZpYc25PF9D5GPYHFWlNjuPU96rDndXB3hedmBRhLdC4bAXjI4DV+bmdVe+q/ IMnlZRaVlm9EiMCVAR6w13sReu7qXkW9r3RwY2AzXskp/tAe4BRKr1Zmbvi2nbnQ6epEC42r Rbx0B1EhjbIQZ5JHGk24iPT7LdBgnNmos5wYjzwNlkMQD5T0Ydzhk7J+UxwA5m46mOhRDC2r FV/A0gm5TLy8DXjv/Esc4gYnYai6SQqnUEVh5LuV8YCJBnijs+Tiw71x1icmn6xGI45EugJO gec+rLypYgpVp4x0HI5T88qBRYCkxH3Kg8Qo+EWNA9A4LRQ9DX8njona0gf0s03tocK8kBN6 6UoqqPtHBnc4eMgBymCflK12eKfd2YYxnyg9cZazWA5VslvTxpm76hbg5oiAEH/Vg/8MxHyA nPhfrgwyPrmJEcVBafdspJnYQxBYNco2LFPIhlOvWh8r4at+s+M3Lb26oUTczlgdW1Sf3SDA 77BMRnF0FQyE+7AzV79MBN4ykiqaezQxtaF1Fy/tvkhffSo8u+dwG0EgJh+te38gTcISVr0G IPplLz6YhjrbHrPRF1CN5UuL9DBGjxuN35RLNVEfta6RUFlR6NctTjvrABEBAAHCwWUEGAEC AA8FAkyAcmQCGwwFCRLMAwAACgkQ7ZfpDmKqfjSrHA/+KzAKvTxRhA9MWNLxIyJ7S5uJ16gs T3oCjZrBKGEhKMOGX4O0GA6VOEryO7QRCCYah3oxSG38IAnNeiwJXgU9Bzkk85UGbPEd7HGF /VSeHCQwWou6jqUDTSDvn9YhNTdG0KXPM74aC+xr2Zow1O2mhXihgWKD0Dw+0LYPnUOsQ0KO FxHXXYHmRrS1OZPU59BLvc+TRhIhafSHKLwbXK+6ckkxBx6h8z5ccpG0Qs4bFhdFYnFrEieD LoGmnE2YLhdV6swJ9VNCS6pLiEohT3fm7aXm15tZOIyzMZhHRSAPblXxQ0ZSWjq8oRrcYNFx c4W1URpAkBCOYJoXvQfD5L3lqAl8TCqDUzYxhH/tJhbDdHrqHH767jaDaTB1+Talp/2AMKwc XNOdiklGxbmHVG6YGl6g8Lrbsu9NZEI4yLlHzuikthJWgz+3vZhVGyNlt+HNIoF6CjDL2omu 5cEq4RDHM44QqPk6l7O0pUvN1mT4B+S1b08RKpqm/ff015E37HNV/piIvJlxGAYz8PSfuGCB 1thMYqlmgdhd9/BabGFbGGYHA6U4/T5zqU+f6xHy1SsAQZ1MSKlLwekBIT+4/cLRGqCHjnV0 q5H/T6a7t5mPkbzSrOLSo4puj+IToNjYyYIDBWzhlA19avOa+rvUjmHtD3sFN7cXWtkGoi8b uNcby4U= Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:58:24 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Coreutils X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) On 12/20/18 2:40 PM, L A Walsh wrote: > But coreutils already does act differenty based on what > local libraries it pulls in at runtime. Of course, and that doesn't affect the point. From coreutils viewpoint those libraries are part of the system configuration, just as /etc/passwd is, and just as /etc/xattr.conf is. > > Coreutils should service the owner of the system. Of course, and there's already a way to configure them the way you prefer: put wrapper shell scripts in your PATH. And you can simply modify the source code to behave the way you like. So you're asking for yet another way to configure them. We have to balance the advantages of this feature request against the disadvantages. The disadvantages of adding a new way to configure coreutils are that it'll slow the programs down a bit and that it can cause existing usage to go awry. It's not unreasonable to say that these disadvantages outweigh the minor advantage of having yet another way to configure them. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 20 18:14:25 2018 Received: (at 33787) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Dec 2018 23:14:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56896 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga7WL-0007dG-HG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:14:25 -0500 Received: from mail-pg1-f170.google.com ([209.85.215.170]:34602) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga7WK-0007d4-2n for 33787@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:14:24 -0500 Received: by mail-pg1-f170.google.com with SMTP id j10so1580300pga.1 for <33787@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 15:14:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UHVEDLukBAmK4i6m5RUzKin72GXCZx2aHVFnI1SJ9rI=; b=GTnkZN/EQOLW2VjihnVYyAfzofYdUNwXAp8dZz9ZihKogJX3OyPD+Fx+rD1DBZwntq SLudJjg3kti57RGqtU4efdqQZGG03W4sNVmaHRq7Jjc2ooz8K+G9bEKZO2MZZ7eo8c+p BlR8vksNIgfKolMegBL36K00Hxmtpy1Ivr1cb2K+mEGSqAMrSdKlSaRNWpl3k0ufQeBz rHvKlbPDdNufCe6DMjHfMrRWfimg7r+nUa4DV0ff0aJmhPgL+VYr0mhq8WFRT9YBpvw7 UXxdaw6DA0A/QS6qvLLF9NU/5yRlWKcJwCOM0b+3JmN6EFf0SNNGtQ/WngwjbjwPej00 9RLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=UHVEDLukBAmK4i6m5RUzKin72GXCZx2aHVFnI1SJ9rI=; b=Yaa3Xsj9/VfXUX88RtoTUuiDpnbxajatfrWT88qtuEqmExF5NyYnJE2Z7fmLkMev9C I5cCRYJkbnJHv0PZpRX+1c0vtkEPCVK3j+ODamPQB5ENv+hcVi4mKeJj/ntVpqo+CnTr OeShcuygM4XZoiuXv+bNr356pz+6KH4k6PuijjXT0aSU6qD3dW+ifkjvCissXbkPCvSJ InPIUJYp4QNfMAEFXgErcP1xyu1qzb/i7j8QN+2SW99L2dcrZ1qQEDh+UpDndIvFLXXj 6mYMFPqtYDx7UmESFOlaA3tIwFrq49Hkybl2hh8Qo1OuB0+zQZxZ2FzCXTBbUSnMZQuv 3JTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWYwR5wFqMTNNX9j0qvHAqYiHuiICC7C7BrQLQJvIL01sM7AaShp dLH8gNiMSAspLTvrSi908npkruYr X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/WLjGp5OXJ5dBwL/r5zd/u3kHJOIQBTNNxrqq8gxXgZevSSKK+joHjxjd1I0BLe6Zud7uupvg== X-Received: by 2002:a62:4851:: with SMTP id v78mr144361pfa.97.1545347657358; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 15:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomato.housegordon.com (moose.housegordon.com. [184.68.105.38]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id l3sm36276083pga.92.2018.12.20.15.14.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Dec 2018 15:14:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior To: L A Walsh , Paul Eggert References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> From: Assaf Gordon Message-ID: <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:14:14 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 33787 Cc: 33787@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) tags 33787 wontfix close 33787 stop Hello, On 12/17/18 11:12 PM, L A Walsh wrote: > I find that /etc/xattr.conf is being used to regulate behavior in gnu > tools. It's worth noting that "/etc/xattr.conf" comes from a shared-library (libattr.so) that is optionally used by cp(1). It is not part of GNU coreutils per-se, and coreutils developers have no influence over it. Similarly, if other shared-libraries decide to introduce their own global configuration files, it will be picked-up by coreutils' cp (e.g. libacl, libcap or libsmack). On 2018-12-20 3:40 p.m., L A Walsh wrote: > On more than one coreutils-including system, I see coreutil programs > replaced with alternate versions like from BSD > because the bsd version was more user friendly. There are several cases where GNU coreutils' programs are not the default, and instead other implementation are used (e.g. "busybox" in Alpine Linux). I'm less familiar with cases where the BSD implementation is used to replace coreutils in GNU/Linux systems, but that's certainly possible. However, I doubt that is because these other implementation are more "user friendly". Typically other implementation are used due to less restrictive license (e.g. BSD vs GPLv3), or due to perceived "bloat" (i.e. desiring *less* features and smaller binaries than what GNU coreutils offer). > Coreutils should service the owner of the system. > They should not be like a virus or malware that can change > behavior at the behest of the util-maintainer against what users want. > This has been what is happening. I humbly think calling it a "virus or malware" is an exaggeration. All GNU coreutils program do exactly as you tell them by supplying command-line arguments. Your request is to add a global configuration file that would save some typing. Even without such a config file, it's hardly going "against what users want". > Those things said, coreutils apparently is already using xattr.conf > and my proposal is to fold that into a gnu.conf where other > utils can store config ops, or go ahead and provide gnu.conf even if > xattr.conf doesn't want to fold in to allow more flexibiltiy As mentioned above, "xattr.conf" is not managed or created or used by coreutils programs per-se (i.e. there is no where in GNU coreutils' source code a place where xattr.conf is read). It will not be merged or folded into a hypothetical "gnu.conf" because these files are targeting different projects (coreutils vs libattr). This is just like "/etc/passwd" won't be merged with "/etc/pam.conf" despite both of them being related to user management - they are from different projects. --- The common and recommended way to add default command-line arguments is to use aliases (e.g. "alias rm='rm -i'"). If used in $HOME/.profile - it will affect your interactive use. If used in /etc/profile (or similar) - it will affect all users in your system. That method already works in almost every Unix system - without adding additional code and complexities of a global configuration file. --- > On 12/20/2018 1:59 PM, Paul Eggert wrote: >> >> Coreutils should not behave differently on different hosts merely >> because the coreutils installer on one platform prefers behavior A >> whereas the installer on another platform prefers behavior B. >> Given the above, I'm closing this as "wontfix". Discussion can continue by replying to this thread. regards, - assaf From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 20 19:36:30 2018 Received: (at 33787) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2018 00:36:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56937 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga8nl-0001Go-VE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:36:30 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:53400 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga8nj-0001Gd-Pj for 33787@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:36:28 -0500 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id wBL0aLqa004378; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:36:23 -0800 Message-ID: <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:36:21 -0800 From: L A Walsh User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Assaf Gordon Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 33787 Cc: 33787@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) The below methods cannot alter or fix the problems that require a configuration file. Example: have 'rm -fr .' do a depth first removal and not pre-inspect any argument before its children. Whether or not to expand tabs in output so that output to a terminal that doesn't have tabstops every 8 characters will line up. I could go on, but those cannot be handled with a simple alias. > The common and recommended way to add default command-line arguments > is to use aliases (e.g. "alias rm='rm -i'"). > > If used in $HOME/.profile - it will affect your interactive use. > If used in /etc/profile (or similar) - it will affect all users in your > system. > > That method already works in almost every Unix system - without adding > additional code and complexities of a global configuration file. > Given the above, I'm closing this as "wontfix". > Discussion can continue by replying to this thread. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 20 19:48:32 2018 Received: (at 33787) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2018 00:48:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56941 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga8zQ-0001Xy-3T for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:48:32 -0500 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:49784) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga8zO-0001Xj-Oc for 33787@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:48:31 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 019311609D9; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:48:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id pGMGKB7LEFnK; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:48:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EE5A160A71; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:48:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 0xRzYOFsJt7X; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:48:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 32C571609B4; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:48:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior To: L A Walsh , Assaf Gordon References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> From: Paul Eggert Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=eggert@cs.ucla.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBEyAcmQBEADAAyH2xoTu7ppG5D3a8FMZEon74dCvc4+q1XA2J2tBy2pwaTqfhpxxdGA9 Jj50UJ3PD4bSUEgN8tLZ0san47l5XTAFLi2456ciSl5m8sKaHlGdt9XmAAtmXqeZVIYX/UFS 96fDzf4xhEmm/y7LbYEPQdUdxu47xA5KhTYp5bltF3WYDz1Ygd7gx07Auwp7iw7eNvnoDTAl KAl8KYDZzbDNCQGEbpY3efZIvPdeI+FWQN4W+kghy+P6au6PrIIhYraeua7XDdb2LS1en3Ss mE3QjqfRqI/A2ue8JMwsvXe/WK38Ezs6x74iTaqI3AFH6ilAhDqpMnd/msSESNFt76DiO1ZK QMr9amVPknjfPmJISqdhgB1DlEdw34sROf6V8mZw0xfqT6PKE46LcFefzs0kbg4GORf8vjG2 Sf1tk5eU8MBiyN/bZ03bKNjNYMpODDQQwuP84kYLkX2wBxxMAhBxwbDVZudzxDZJ1C2VXujC OJVxq2kljBM9ETYuUGqd75AW2LXrLw6+MuIsHFAYAgRr7+KcwDgBAfwhPBYX34nSSiHlmLC+ KaHLeCLF5ZI2vKm3HEeCTtlOg7xZEONgwzL+fdKo+D6SoC8RRxJKs8a3sVfI4t6CnrQzvJbB n6gxdgCu5i29J1QCYrCYvql2UyFPAK+do99/1jOXT4m2836j1wARAQABzSBQYXVsIEVnZ2Vy dCA8ZWdnZXJ0QGNzLnVjbGEuZWR1PsLBfgQTAQIAKAUCTIByZAIbAwUJEswDAAYLCQgHAwIG FQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ7ZfpDmKqfjRRGw/+Ij03dhYfYl/gXVRiuzV1gGrbHk+t nfrI/C7fAeoFzQ5tVgVinShaPkZo0HTPf18x6IDEdAiO8Mqo1yp0CtHmzGMCJ50o4Grgfjlr 6g/+vtEOKbhleszN2XpJvpwM2QgGvn/laTLUu8PH9aRWTs7qJJZKKKAb4sxYc92FehPu6FOD 0dDiyhlDAq4lOV2mdBpzQbiojoZzQLMQwjpgCTK2572eK9EOEQySUThXrSIz6ASenp4NYTFH s9tuJQvXk9gZDdPSl3bp+47dGxlxEWLpBIM7zIONw4ks4azgT8nvDZxA5IZHtvqBlJLBObYY 0Le61Wp0y3TlBDh2qdK8eYL426W4scEMSuig5gb8OAtQiBW6k2sGUxxeiv8ovWu8YAZgKJfu oWI+uRnMEddruY8JsoM54KaKvZikkKs2bg1ndtLVzHpJ6qFZC7QVjeHUh6/BmgvdjWPZYFTt N+KA9CWX3GQKKgN3uu988yznD7LnB98T4EUH1HA/GnfBqMV1gpzTvPc4qVQinCmIkEFp83zl +G5fCjJJ3W7ivzCnYo4KhKLpFUm97okTKR2LW3xZzEW4cLSWO387MTK3CzDOx5qe6s4a91Zu ZM/j/TQdTLDaqNn83kA4Hq48UHXYxcIh+Nd8k/3w6lFuoK0wrOFiywjLx+0ur5jmmbecBGHc 1xdhAFHOwU0ETIByZAEQAKaF678T9wyH4wjTrV1Pz3cDEoSnV/0ZUrOT37p1dcGyj/IXq1x6 70HRVahAmk0sZpYc25PF9D5GPYHFWlNjuPU96rDndXB3hedmBRhLdC4bAXjI4DV+bmdVe+q/ IMnlZRaVlm9EiMCVAR6w13sReu7qXkW9r3RwY2AzXskp/tAe4BRKr1Zmbvi2nbnQ6epEC42r Rbx0B1EhjbIQZ5JHGk24iPT7LdBgnNmos5wYjzwNlkMQD5T0Ydzhk7J+UxwA5m46mOhRDC2r FV/A0gm5TLy8DXjv/Esc4gYnYai6SQqnUEVh5LuV8YCJBnijs+Tiw71x1icmn6xGI45EugJO gec+rLypYgpVp4x0HI5T88qBRYCkxH3Kg8Qo+EWNA9A4LRQ9DX8njona0gf0s03tocK8kBN6 6UoqqPtHBnc4eMgBymCflK12eKfd2YYxnyg9cZazWA5VslvTxpm76hbg5oiAEH/Vg/8MxHyA nPhfrgwyPrmJEcVBafdspJnYQxBYNco2LFPIhlOvWh8r4at+s+M3Lb26oUTczlgdW1Sf3SDA 77BMRnF0FQyE+7AzV79MBN4ykiqaezQxtaF1Fy/tvkhffSo8u+dwG0EgJh+te38gTcISVr0G IPplLz6YhjrbHrPRF1CN5UuL9DBGjxuN35RLNVEfta6RUFlR6NctTjvrABEBAAHCwWUEGAEC AA8FAkyAcmQCGwwFCRLMAwAACgkQ7ZfpDmKqfjSrHA/+KzAKvTxRhA9MWNLxIyJ7S5uJ16gs T3oCjZrBKGEhKMOGX4O0GA6VOEryO7QRCCYah3oxSG38IAnNeiwJXgU9Bzkk85UGbPEd7HGF /VSeHCQwWou6jqUDTSDvn9YhNTdG0KXPM74aC+xr2Zow1O2mhXihgWKD0Dw+0LYPnUOsQ0KO FxHXXYHmRrS1OZPU59BLvc+TRhIhafSHKLwbXK+6ckkxBx6h8z5ccpG0Qs4bFhdFYnFrEieD LoGmnE2YLhdV6swJ9VNCS6pLiEohT3fm7aXm15tZOIyzMZhHRSAPblXxQ0ZSWjq8oRrcYNFx c4W1URpAkBCOYJoXvQfD5L3lqAl8TCqDUzYxhH/tJhbDdHrqHH767jaDaTB1+Talp/2AMKwc XNOdiklGxbmHVG6YGl6g8Lrbsu9NZEI4yLlHzuikthJWgz+3vZhVGyNlt+HNIoF6CjDL2omu 5cEq4RDHM44QqPk6l7O0pUvN1mT4B+S1b08RKpqm/ff015E37HNV/piIvJlxGAYz8PSfuGCB 1thMYqlmgdhd9/BabGFbGGYHA6U4/T5zqU+f6xHy1SsAQZ1MSKlLwekBIT+4/cLRGqCHjnV0 q5H/T6a7t5mPkbzSrOLSo4puj+IToNjYyYIDBWzhlA19avOa+rvUjmHtD3sFN7cXWtkGoi8b uNcby4U= Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <8bef1bee-6beb-a640-5aca-bb0a924a5db7@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:48:23 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 33787 Cc: 33787@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) If the behaviors you want cannot be done now via command-line options, that's not an argument against configuring via PATH; it's merely an argument that you would like some random features that the programs don't provide now. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 20 20:21:55 2018 Received: (at 33787) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2018 01:21:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56956 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9Vj-0002Mj-If for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:21:55 -0500 Received: from mail-pl1-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:39240) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9Vh-0002MS-LC for 33787@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:21:54 -0500 Received: by mail-pl1-f169.google.com with SMTP id 101so1691245pld.6 for <33787@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:21:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ue5jrNwqFP/s06FxF16q77E+NVwORojgqWwjMvrYFOM=; b=njNiwtQ/pSj4yw/oEinika3afEeZZ8SUWV9Yd2PbP9udJBxUtf5BD/W3AS2b/aG/rz +9XtftZGC2NAZ3UIvvb04A3/YkR2XblcPp18D+XPZ0QvrnztrCBouJVoNGPH1WbUZkle gROBl0aEL81H26EYc3BaWn4kfCJhsN/3wzZy9Rs9/OZZeRCp9vNRLt7JmWO4y0DXRDTf kiwpmjb9pGsITSELT8MqT3Id87d2Vg5y4HFnzr4wCr0+oS8hyQSEwoC5p7NKc6DOW4f+ ZfGqg+W1aJFqyLgzRGRJN/P1z/DwefK1XMaJtr2gfWTFG7FaDz5oes+Ow3uYdppzSbEh bg6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ue5jrNwqFP/s06FxF16q77E+NVwORojgqWwjMvrYFOM=; b=X8vSB1EfIiUnJ3lYTLDp639t+q+HYPN8bKHxmRHXMz318Olj3sGL/va8RfupGbGk8t IO7mfYHry8iUMhzUG85RjhjnoHYUnCEILCdsmOUDvxDN99Iihprrt2LKMEKDLTQwTwsY mDci81f/jxx9/rLxeakZvQmTkiikJo7R2RTQujT88n/KVYg1JAIirY/R3DyCvdW0Lqcf kAmPquMHCydDSCxpIeY7/UIO1xnP4NaZxfRDoMjGnMglpf1KYWHi17QJYpaCd+EuSgxG SoE/V3X305mReim5YNE+6Jj3kNt6ppAX0k6bqI6CUR0XbSPnf1hApAEue7KAIfdFeq/e CKaw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukewYKxkO9OdWM4srMDHxM8F1u8ciYHMS1PKqT7K9hkstikjJG5q Y8bHSmIO/9jY0Oqacq9gUp9rZasl X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN5o+mGaC1rJ48m9OWx4Whi3EMLXJLQsNpB59Mh+fcShtlcGhZBLy3M9kSpr8v3ZErC1caUN1Q== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:9045:: with SMTP id w5mr498075plz.32.1545355307345; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomato.housegordon.com (moose.housegordon.com. [184.68.105.38]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 202sm40393121pfy.87.2018.12.20.17.21.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:21:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior To: L A Walsh References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> From: Assaf Gordon Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:21:45 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 33787 Cc: 33787@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, On 2018-12-20 5:36 p.m., L A Walsh wrote: > The below methods cannot alter or fix  the problems that require > a configuration file. > > Example: have 'rm -fr .' do a depth first removal and not pre-inspect > any argument before its children. > > Whether or not to expand tabs in output so that output to > a terminal that doesn't have tabstops every 8 characters will line up. > > I could go on, but those cannot be handled with a simple alias. Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing (and avoid "x/y problem"): Are you asking about adding *new* features (e.g, "rm --depth-first" or "cat --expand-tabs"), and then about controlling them throught a global configuration file? That is, asking for two different things (new features, and new control options) ? For example, If there was an "rm --depth-first" feature, you could enable it easily with "alias" - right? If this is the case, I think it is best to explicitly separate it into some very different requests: 1. The ability to control existing command-line features through a global configuration file. 2. Adding "rm --depth-first" option 3. Adding "--expand-tabs" option to multiple programs. As for #1 - this idea is the topic of the current thread, and was previously decided to not be accepted. As for #2 - not sure if this was discussed before, but I have a hunch that once more sophisticated control over file-traversal is needed, find(1) is likely better solution (e.g. "find -depth"). As for #3 - The "expand" program already does tab-expansion. It can be easily combined with existing programs using a simple shell function. e.g.: sorttab(){ sort "$@" | expand -t20 ; } --- If you are requesting such features (or others) It's best to start a new thread for each topic. regards, - assaf From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 20 20:43:11 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2018 01:43:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56961 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9qJ-0002t5-Av for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:43:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:34178) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9qI-0002sq-8g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:43:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9qC-0001d1-DB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:43:05 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:39014) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9qC-0001cr-9m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:43:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43787) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9qB-00066K-EJ for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:43:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9q7-0001Zp-FC for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:43:03 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:34270 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9q7-0001Ye-5N for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:42:59 -0500 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id wBL1gqgM012914; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:42:54 -0800 Message-ID: <5C1C451C.5070207@tlinx.org> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:42:52 -0800 From: L A Walsh User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> <8bef1bee-6beb-a640-5aca-bb0a924a5db7@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <8bef1bee-6beb-a640-5aca-bb0a924a5db7@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (no timestamps) [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Assaf Gordon , Coreutils X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) Features where their non inclusion was unable to be met due to pre-existing usage and where using or allowing behavior change based on ENV vars was disallowed due to new gnu policies to minimize usage of ENV vars. At the time config files were mentioned as a possible solution but at the time I was told there would be no more config files. Now I'm seeing references to /etc/xattr.conf regarding which attributes should be copied and which not when utils like 'cp' or 'tar' preserve or restore xattrs. If you don't allow a config, how will you skip attributes that shouldn't be copied on a given system vs. those that should? As for random features being added, paul, who was it that added a random range feature incompatible with what was original suggested and going off in a different direction. You created an incompatible feature to the one that was originally proposed... so this is to allow a workaround for for malicious features rushed to build to disallow alternate sets. It's not about a new random one, but one that you specifically found an alternate and incompatible algorithm for. It certainly is no more of a random feature than the collection of new features that has gone into random coreutils programs in the past year or two -- many of which, like with 'ls' were strongly complained about -- and ignored. Those people who don't like the new, unwelcomed 'features' forced upon them would have a choice. Similarly with 'find' -- supposing to use the user provided prefix prepended on targets, when this doesn't: "find -type f" doesn't emit plain filenames, but "./" appended to each. But if you want "./" appended, you already have "find . -type f". There are several little nitnats that came down to the dev's choice overriding things users suggested or wanted. This would allow users to have a choice -- so of course the dictator devs wouldn't like or want this. Users are to be trodden upon and forced to conform to what devs think they should do. So much for user-friendly and programs being to help users vs. oppressed by them. On 12/20/2018 4:48 PM, Paul Eggert wrote: > If the behaviors you want cannot be done now via command-line options, > that's not an argument against configuring via PATH; it's merely an > argument that you would like some random features that the programs > don't provide now. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 20 20:46:31 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2018 01:46:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56965 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9tW-0002yk-Rw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:46:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:34529) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9tV-0002yX-52 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:46:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9tO-0003qa-AG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:46:23 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_05 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:56849) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9tN-0003q4-1U for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:46:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44129) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9tM-0006XZ-As for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:46:20 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9tI-0003nH-E1 for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:46:20 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:34410 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ga9tF-0003kD-1E for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:46:14 -0500 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id wBL1k9Xt013424; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:46:11 -0800 Message-ID: <5C1C45E0.2080804@tlinx.org> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:46:08 -0800 From: L A Walsh User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Assaf Gordon Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (no timestamps) [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Paul Eggert , Coreutils X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) On 12/20/2018 5:21 PM, Assaf Gordon wrote: > If you are requesting such features (or others) > It's best to start a new thread for each topic. ---- They've already been discussed and ignored because there was no way to add the feature for a default behavior other than ENV vars or a config, both of which have been rallied against to maintain the behavior monopoly with the existing devs. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 20 21:21:58 2018 Received: (at 33787) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2018 02:21:58 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56970 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gaARo-0003tK-MY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:21:58 -0500 Received: from mail-pl1-f196.google.com ([209.85.214.196]:40658) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gaARm-0003sy-QY for 33787@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:21:55 -0500 Received: by mail-pl1-f196.google.com with SMTP id u18so1754134plq.7 for <33787@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:21:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SPsNZOrdgsS4MdLxPM/yHQnUw7TKFYZiINB+KX1FhFo=; b=cuKMpy4+oxm8RSuGn6jLDHtzGA60LaQaJBP8ne6rm378KmWmpYxpWNi4hsBU2UBH5j 6MB8IHY52CYqdJ9p9l0SJzFq01rRkNm7JB5Mbysc+jVHpQLoe+pItManzQSLXh1mdWXz p4VJNyAbRzOTSWxnNNCs/NRZjjdXmLC3CES56upUBa+MG86C2nIPizJNTYhHAKOnTqyZ d4PTiUl3hz7lkiE2SKQsgDBEOZIgNqWKDy11BgAkrIZJsYX0loxgVQc/y3smsxaxT3kE abhSJaOMLUo7PQenPVI1nVSvP87c2j3aU1zJrCQkDTmHxqz3MUzkiOBwpDAaLJvFAIsT 06vA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SPsNZOrdgsS4MdLxPM/yHQnUw7TKFYZiINB+KX1FhFo=; b=Gxi34cTl8Q30UsHaZHVVdBf9tv6ogeb3qQ83ofx+Sj0yHxZmH5q6tY48f76ZW1cJlB XKv8VtStFUNeFQxXiaptnBZ6jZRDwAHZHQQHVlVd73pmijRHH/MbVN+XZVI21xiG80k1 7XNXzBpGEIicbfUH4IIBGOcVDFZjYZ/1gCN+Se552HzfIoEBgN9CI0w++voIPdcL758+ 9GKHOJAPewmyM8DHz7I8oLVYXg1/rHrjmvy8WvNJIlgG+Fnnj8i143MylliNY1BSltnS KJYQXbmZph4UNeF8wpaYNvWMRikGJikkwJ5uXty4G97zryHkMFqxtNjinn7ZMyaBcwvy Ie7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukd5sLgOdPJ2cy0AGDydGDWM5wGmoxAD4IWKjen775MIUXLAuG5H seVu2eoGnxADpyjJWrxjLkFbnMVX X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN6C09r9ST453bYTx3xLolFhQCBCXrTo5WpBHEtpdanVY188pv2cIBFj7xbwdJt2oBgbzg5GkQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:bd0a:: with SMTP id p10mr647147pls.322.1545358907458; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomato.housegordon.com (moose.housegordon.com. [184.68.105.38]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id j6sm35222429pfg.126.2018.12.20.18.21.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:21:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior To: L A Walsh References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> <5C1C45E0.2080804@tlinx.org> From: Assaf Gordon Message-ID: <18f690cb-ae2f-545e-981f-7fa7b8dd835d@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:21:45 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5C1C45E0.2080804@tlinx.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 33787 Cc: 33787@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, On 2018-12-20 6:46 p.m., L A Walsh wrote: > > > On 12/20/2018 5:21 PM, Assaf Gordon wrote: > >> If you are requesting such features (or others) >> It's best to start a new thread for each topic. > ---- > > They've already been discussed and ignored because there was no > way to add the feature for a default behavior other than > ENV vars or a config, both of which have been rallied against > to maintain the behavior monopoly with the existing devs. > There are few separate issues above: 1. If any messages have been ignored (that is: not replied to at all) - that's not OK. It happens, as the maintainers volunteer their time and sometimes messages fall between the cracks, but we try to minimize these occurrences. If you (or any one else) have sent a message that have not been replied to - please do send a gentle reminder to the list (perhaps with a link to the original message from the mailing list archives). 2. If a topic has been discussed, and the suggestion or request wasn't accepted - as frustrating as it is, it is the prerogative of coreutils' maintainers to decide what goes in and what's not. Several of my own suggestions were rejected, I certainly understand it is frustrating. Topics can always be revisited if there are new reasons to suggest a feature. Supplying a working patch is also a way to make a stronger case. 3. Every feature in the coreutils' programs, whether existing or future-suggested, can and must have a command-line parameter option. Saying "there was no way to add the feature [...] other than ENV vars or a config" is technically incorrect. If a feature is accepted, it will have a command-line parameter. There are no features that can only be set by ENV-vars or a config file. 4. The corollary of #3 is - once a feature has a command-line option, you can change the default (interactive) behavior with "alias" or shell functions, and can change the (non-interactive) behavior with a simple shell-script. 5. New ENV vars are frowned-upon for reasons that have been discussed several times before (see: https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/rejected_requests.html). 6. Support of a global gnu-wide configuration file is a feature request that was not accepted (previously in this thread). ---- Please understand that requests for configuration files and ENV vars are orthogonal to requests for new features. regards, -assaf From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 20 21:32:30 2018 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2018 02:32:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56974 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gaAc2-0004C9-5w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:32:30 -0500 Received: from mail-pf1-f179.google.com ([209.85.210.179]:46575) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gaAc1-0004Bt-4g for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:32:29 -0500 Received: by mail-pf1-f179.google.com with SMTP id c73so1818164pfe.13 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:32:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=to:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ok1B9/TX7DcTOuPTq892WvBRSkV9C02zx8Uo7qDSMO0=; b=GEgqf/voHtmuRVooDi2GUIU/G1JD4SJjZ9GFH4vOxIyIgg1mTyxzsaYfkx70Q9LxEL JliVg+yrmUAd7zsTkfxH6qpRTyLC79QlRi3lckI9/K44Qtek6fjPkO686EJhSR4bDCJH GfvbMQTtnOwev7RzxkWa6tuNEEQO/VD9AlaORtfxwwgFahO9a7q+Az2f1JUB0g3V6taI y8bw7HgjTibIV7u+2/hAnfQ5yPv0t3z3jjg0dmDXRWqwC4AhG4KKt43wUgDkvUWqzWs0 CDHrDxVU7wxC5JUBJQXlfpMXFk6Hip2HIExOxTIIOPKfjTtqrtsrMUtPRyqya80ZZ3VP hJMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ok1B9/TX7DcTOuPTq892WvBRSkV9C02zx8Uo7qDSMO0=; b=mPyritaX+QOb0+f1hgO93iXXN5sMNR65yIQwMbqTqW4C5JdP4SrDG9Z+G+4j52DPaF w5NmLtYCil9AwWjP3vjaS4epZq34wBLQkksS2tXimPnM4cxV6+PVsYgIr1/4ng+TYbnX omwG6tdtnIwpNrQ2Tl2PsATnUKm8sLCUXqjXgLIVlqPB+oB/7mZPMqaOJ4GlzQw2TbCN uDqaaCLsIMOEXPGKi1uW7QeCKOxFIwW8mihaTCpxF6WCDKln+btLrK6Jvtp3rijEw5io dHpvxp4Sk2osIX6j7X2tpzHsKsfrJTWGxFgIoR5AAHS+oit8olY5OqIxFoLR6M/AoGbk WjCg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukfJH2TaMXd5RDUu3dPPHLWNw1Hp8UgsbyOTE9F8otHn6DzBn8dj 36vg2W5B7MyefXfSXtCRspSLukQx X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4hKd7mVhIBFDWbEaUUmmLzSm2/2nX2Yd3LbxG2qVhoXBnGOr0rz+iCEsAnnfy0eDPQd5VQKw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:ac1a:: with SMTP id v26mr636658pge.293.1545359542830; Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomato.housegordon.com (moose.housegordon.com. [184.68.105.38]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id u6sm23327445pgr.79.2018.12.20.18.32.21 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:32:21 -0800 (PST) To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Assaf Gordon Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:32:20 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: severity 33787 wishlist tags 33787 wontfix close 33787 stop Content analysis details: (2.0 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.210.179 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (assafgordon[at]gmail.com) 1.8 MISSING_SUBJECT Missing Subject: header 0.2 NO_SUBJECT Extra score for no subject X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) severity 33787 wishlist tags 33787 wontfix close 33787 stop From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 23 20:47:07 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2018 01:47:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34160 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gbFKl-0002Q8-3T for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 20:47:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:34555) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gbFKi-0002Pc-W2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 20:47:05 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:58316) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gbFKd-0001qV-L2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 20:46:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:43744) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gbFKc-0007Ui-OI for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 20:46:59 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gbFKW-0001ln-SK for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 20:46:58 -0500 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:40006) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gbFKW-0001jx-K9 for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 20:46:52 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF84C160CF7; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 17:46:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id LfdQtNBW6Rqo; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 17:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8EDA160D04; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 17:46:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 5VouD64qsOCh; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 17:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-23-242-74-103.socal.res.rr.com [23.242.74.103]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 98EE9160917; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 17:46:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior To: L A Walsh References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> <8bef1bee-6beb-a640-5aca-bb0a924a5db7@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C451C.5070207@tlinx.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 17:46:49 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5C1C451C.5070207@tlinx.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 131.179.128.68 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Assaf Gordon , Coreutils X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) L A Walsh wrote: > Features where their non inclusion was unable to be met due to > pre-existing usage and where using or allowing behavior change based > on ENV vars was disallowed due to new gnu policies to minimize usage > of ENV vars.=C2=A0 At the time config files were mentioned as a possibl= e > solution but at the time I was told there would be no more config files= . >=20 > Now I'm seeing references to /etc/xattr.conf regarding which attributes > should be copied and which not when utils like 'cp' or 'tar' preserve > or restore xattrs.=C2=A0 If you don't allow a config, how will you skip > attributes that shouldn't be copied on a given system vs. those that sh= ould? >=20 > As for random features being added, paul, who was it that added a rando= m > range feature incompatible with what was original suggested and going o= ff > in a different direction.=C2=A0 You created an incompatible feature to = the one that=20 > was originally proposed... so this is to allow a workaround for > for malicious features rushed to build to disallow alternate sets. It's > not about a new random one, but one that you specifically found an > alternate and incompatible algorithm for.=C2=A0 It certainly is no more= of > a random feature than the collection of new features that has gone > into random coreutils programs in the past year or two -- many of which= , > like with 'ls' were strongly complained about -- and ignored. >=20 > Those people who don't like the new, unwelcomed 'features' forced upon = them=20 > would have a choice. I'm afraid I don't know specifically what the above is talking about. All= I'm=20 getting from it is that you think coreutils should have configuration fil= es=20 (system-wide? user-specific? directory-specific? it's not clear) because = some=20 kernel features have configuration files. But applications and kernels ar= e=20 different animals, and the existence of a configuration method for the ke= rnel=20 does not necessarily imply that the same configuration method is a good i= dea for=20 applications. > Similarly with 'find' "find" is not part of coreutils, and discussion of it should be moved to a separate bug report, which you can create by emailing bug-findutils@gnu= .org. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 24 02:20:12 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2018 07:20:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34219 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gbKX5-0002ho-Q7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 02:20:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:47007) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gbKX4-0002ha-16 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 02:20:10 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:60990) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gbKWy-0007wn-4z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 02:20:04 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:40898) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gbKWw-0005Ea-QS for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 02:20:03 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gbKWs-0007rN-TR for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 02:20:02 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:47664 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gbKWq-0007lL-Vz for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Dec 2018 02:19:57 -0500 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id wBO7JgU0090884; Sun, 23 Dec 2018 23:19:44 -0800 Message-ID: <5C20888D.9010502@tlinx.org> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 23:19:41 -0800 From: L A Walsh User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> <8bef1bee-6beb-a640-5aca-bb0a924a5db7@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C451C.5070207@tlinx.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (no timestamps) [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 173.164.175.65 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Assaf Gordon , Coreutils X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) On 12/23/2018 5:46 PM, Paul Eggert wrote: >> Similarly with 'find' > > "find" is not part of coreutils, and discussion of it should be moved to > a separate bug report, which you can create by emailing bug-findutils@gnu.org. ---- If you were discussing whether or not each each county or province in the state should have a place where the laws and regulations of that state and county were on display for reference or consultation, AND you had a case where whether or not Santa Clara County in California should include in its display, Bay Area regulations as well, should such discussion or cases be opened and entertained in Santa Clara County at the same time one is discussing the statewide or national cases? Wouldn't it be proper to discuss the Bay Area's inclusion after the wider jurisdiction cases have been discussed? It might be wiser to discuss other areas for inclusion after until sometime _after_ the larger case is settled. > ... configuration files > (system-wide? user-specific? directory-specific? it's not clear). --- As far as the proposal went, I think it was: "Now I suspect that people will want these options to be configurable by user and not just at a system level -- so ideally, there would be a '~/.gnurc' file for user overrides." > applications and kernels are > different animals, and the existence of a configuration method for the kernel > does not necessarily imply that the same configuration method is a good idea for > applications. --- Different animals, yes, but similar eco systems (arch, hw, source lang(s), users, etc...). Also, a need to configure both for their environments. Both need different methods for building on x86 than on MIPS, likely different building for a US-based distro vs. a China-based distro. Like different need for home environment vs that of a National-Security-Agency, or a bank. Even a vastly different needs based on filesystem type (How many times did we see a message from the tail program about an unknown file system?). Of course in some ways, the kernel stores part of the user's choices in the hardware config. If they wanted a graphics pen, they probably bought one, and windows will turn on pen-input, though on linux it's probably "each app for themself", however the variability in how the kernel can be configured not only varies by hardware but by your desired software behavior. Turning on FLASK or SMAC security will result in the utilities behaving differently. In all of the above, we see lots of configuration for different items, but almost non of those items touch on "*user-requirements". Huh? user requirements? Nearly every bit of new work has a requirements or prereq. list; why not users? In new features or improvements in the past year or two -- how many of them came with some study or poll of users who asked for it? How many voted for the feature vs. against? How many were discussed on coreutils before they were introduced? How much weight is given to user requests? At one point in time there were vendor versions of many of these tools, but people often sought the gnu version because it had some extra behavior or feature. Additionally, I would bet that many gnu features and utils wooed users by being responsive to new feature and enhancement requests. Unfortunately, these days there usually isn't an alternative. Gnu has gone from responsive to the place of "holding the line" against user wanted changes. Out of a list of new features or in the past few years, how many came from user requests? I wonder if number of requests has dropped off as fewer people are drawn-to or have the ability to do software development (hard to think about doing much in the way of development on an iPad or Android device). I encountered a first, recently: a third-party company that was hired to support end-users adapting their computers to the program -- but that did no actual support of the program. If you wanted a new feature or bug -- you were directed to a community discussion list that you are told "is often a place where developers (in a different country speaking a different language) get new ideas. Right.... The disconnect seems to almost be complete. No longer are programs created to attract users or solve their problems, but users and their HW are now being adapted to run the programs. Maybe this is the first step in computers & hardware laying down requirements for users. So I can see why providing a /etc/gnu.conf file to allow programs to support diffent user behaviors would seem like a a step backward. But is it really? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 31 06:37:00 2018 Received: (at 33787) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Dec 2018 11:37:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42831 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gdvsR-000815-Ma for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 06:36:59 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:53050 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gdvsP-00080x-8A for 33787@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 06:36:57 -0500 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id wBVBaiEW063471; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 03:36:47 -0800 Message-ID: <5C29FF4D.9090705@tlinx.org> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 03:36:45 -0800 From: L A Walsh User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Assaf Gordon Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 33787 Cc: 33787@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert , Coreutils X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 12/20/2018 5:21 PM, Assaf Gordon wrote: > For example, > If there was an "rm --depth-first" feature, > you could enable it easily with "alias" - right? --- If you would ensure that this is possible, you would have my gratitude. However, it is not the case. The algorithm USED to be depth first, as described in old unix books describing the utility. However, someone added processing before descending depth first -- specifically, if current name = '.', then abort any processing of that tree. Dunno if it was a local distro patch or use of some different version of 'rm' (thinking this might have been the case, as I seem to remember it support an 'x' option to not cross into other file systems), but but it used to be the case in some past version that rm would delete the files under / in that directory without deleting the directory. It was more concise and safer than anything than any workaround that has been suggested since. So if there was an alias to restore that simple behavior, please share it. > 3. Adding "--expand-tabs" option to multiple programs. ---- This was asked for and denied. type. Compare: df output vs. ls output 8.0K /usr/adm 0 adm 0 /usr/arpwatch 0 arpwatch 76K /usr/bandwidthd 0 bandwidthd 1.5G /usr/bin 288K bin 1.6G /usr/bin1 300K bin1 0 /usr/com 0 com 0 /usr/db 0 db 304K /usr/etc 4.0K etc 0 /usr/games 0 games 294M /usr/include 60K include 0 /usr/java 0 java 2.5G /usr/lib 32K lib 4.8G /usr/lib64 264K lib64 780K /usr/libexec 4.0K libexec 284K /usr/libreadline.so.6 284K libreadline.so.6 467M /usr/local 284K libreadline.so.6.2 0 /usr/lock 0 local 0 /usr/man 0 lock 0 /usr/opt 0 man 16K /usr/run 0 opt 1.8M /usr/samba 0 run 128M /usr/sbin 4.0K samba 16G /usr/share 60K sbin 0 /usr/src 44K share 6.7M /usr/swat 0 src 0 /usr/tmp 0 swat 0 /usr/var 0 tmp 20K /usr/virtualbox 0 var 0 /usr/x86_64-suse-linux 8.0K virtualbox total 1.6M 0 x86_64-suse-linux by default ls has options to expand to screen tabs and line things up. 'du' does not. > > As for #1 - this idea is the topic of the current thread, > and was previously decided to not be accepted. > > As for #2 - not sure if this was discussed before, > but I have a hunch that once more sophisticated control > over file-traversal is needed, find(1) is likely better > solution (e.g. "find -depth"). > > As for #3 - The "expand" program already does tab-expansion. > It can be easily combined with existing programs using > a simple shell function. ---- So can calling a library where the output is expanded automatically according to user choice in a config file. I shouldn't have to figure out the syntax of a separate program to get a 1-time usage of lined up output. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 31 07:24:11 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Dec 2018 12:24:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42850 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gdwc7-0000i9-0D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 07:24:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53088) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gdwc5-0000i2-O2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 07:24:09 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:48816) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gdwc4-00049o-7h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 07:24:09 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53187) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gdwc3-000842-AK for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 07:24:08 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gdwbz-00041v-Lp for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 07:24:07 -0500 Received: from mail-pg1-x536.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::536]:33535) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gdwby-0003o7-NS for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 07:24:03 -0500 Received: by mail-pg1-x536.google.com with SMTP id z11so12689017pgu.0 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 04:23:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XqZ8aHCa+XBvEdpQht5yDc2ew2o04Wm9jM492UQXhWQ=; b=A+5NCFYPex66a07IpKbFrUiN9RSh/K+DOgttE2GXbBimSyPQAsgqFXRBr4BRnRQ5Ek l2E8VQftwt+sA1SxWl/j4O5jvHRq6Fbu6XZF4t3KXXZnrlUfAF9lbZEM9qu4qoapzQ78 j1HyJMVwyenJ3OQ6cjLPR6nkKv6g+yMQo48tnfZ+F3IZ0lWeiiSHcktyma+8m/Sh7UdG sM4KSKQLE0/NP9pFRvcLQviWJAkSfx5YZE2a1/s7b1WreJdKMDqu6JVd//3HivgMbRrw qLAxJh9pe4edd6P6eEW0/VeP0pNzMRrvgCnAaLkviej34eux3veH/LBDIKrEANOYeOZ3 mfIQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=XqZ8aHCa+XBvEdpQht5yDc2ew2o04Wm9jM492UQXhWQ=; b=LEbXqLxKBvFHRgRZKeXFS6zvGZfWEhgNzTAVWnKe6dLnjf11bzcUvzEyrWyAWSZnp0 8dSyeVgeKez6UbUEjnHpe128xbewjB1I1GfCCKg30ryf0yvSqqBZXkyvmnhZJ/EKZk2U DWDh2IHOjVeGBHFws5JQwVgVjFChLvx5oSq+Y53zvooOvNTz5WZh4CG5Ni/a4ALfvEB2 4ochyn9VoY/fL1h15+3SQpRL3C+5nk084yDjqx30Y4w7ODjYc/z8Tal8kx33IelMInAu /vYOiNTh0k6UnRPBjNUTwdkXJnwLkEctQK8hMJ6fbJ4FxveIitsZgTSPJrlzFec/CXDQ yqcA== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbqVqiFo5m13U5YkVD5bFIYSN/F5utd7D/RTKNJxsK4qnvRa0Pb VaeHgcxsdXktyTdkkan/dy2P/u9K X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN4/DB95Yzzo1LjtJMaNP+yE+gmC9w2awY/uy5NMKopkkCRypWxfXTtWjVYpZFR1qlK7nNZKRg== X-Received: by 2002:a62:ca05:: with SMTP id n5mr37912194pfg.154.1546259035869; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 04:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomato.housegordon.com (moose.housegordon.com. [184.68.105.38]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id z186sm72031255pfz.119.2018.12.31.04.23.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Dec 2018 04:23:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior To: L A Walsh References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> <5C29FF4D.9090705@tlinx.org> From: Assaf Gordon Message-ID: <0cd02b95-dea6-cdeb-ef02-9b4d144cf9a6@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 05:23:53 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5C29FF4D.9090705@tlinx.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::536 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 33787@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert , Coreutils X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Hello, On 2018-12-31 4:36 a.m., L A Walsh wrote: > > > On 12/20/2018 5:21 PM, Assaf Gordon wrote: >> If there was an "rm --depth-first" feature, > --- >     If you would ensure that this is possible, you would have > my gratitude. There seem to be some confusion: this item was "#2" in my previous email, and as I wrote (quoted below), I think find(1) is better suited for these things. I have no intention of implementing this functionality. [...] >> As for #2 - not sure if this was discussed before, >> but I have a hunch that once more sophisticated control >> over file-traversal is needed, find(1) is likely better >> solution (e.g. "find -depth"). >> >> As for #3 - The "expand" program already does tab-expansion. >> It can be easily combined with existing programs using >> a simple shell function. > ---- [...] > I shouldn't have to figure out the syntax of a separate program to get > a 1-time usage of lined up output. Or, consider a different approach: With the unix philosophy of "each program should do one thing, and do it well", once one learns how to use "expand" (or fmt, numfmt, awk and similar text formatting programs) - they can use them to format output from any program - saving lots of time in re-implementing the same functionality in different programs. --- However, these are all tangents. The topic of this thread is adding support for a global configuration file. That request is not likely to be implemented. To continue discussing other topics or feature requests (e.g. tab-expansion) - please start a new dedicated thread. regards, - assaf From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 31 08:24:55 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Dec 2018 13:24:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42877 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gdxYt-000471-7J for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 08:24:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:55587) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gdxYs-00046v-8S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 08:24:54 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:42074) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gdxYr-00031Y-VN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 08:24:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:46640) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gdxYo-0002Io-Og for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 08:24:53 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gdxYl-0002eG-Hb for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 08:24:50 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:37496 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gdxYl-0002ZQ-6O for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 08:24:47 -0500 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id wBVDOcgZ071908; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 05:24:40 -0800 Message-ID: <5C2A1896.2040300@tlinx.org> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 05:24:38 -0800 From: L A Walsh User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Assaf Gordon Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> <5C29FF4D.9090705@tlinx.org> <0cd02b95-dea6-cdeb-ef02-9b4d144cf9a6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0cd02b95-dea6-cdeb-ef02-9b4d144cf9a6@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (no timestamps) [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 173.164.175.65 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 33787@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert , Coreutils X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) On 12/31/2018 4:23 AM, Assaf Gordon wrote: > Hello, > > On 2018-12-31 4:36 a.m., L A Walsh wrote: >> >> On 12/20/2018 5:21 PM, Assaf Gordon wrote: >>> If there was an "rm --depth-first" feature, >> --- >> If you would ensure that this is possible, you would have >> my gratitude. > > There seem to be some confusion: this item was "#2" in my previous > email, and as I wrote (quoted below), I think find(1) is better ---- You miss the point. The point is not to increase the length of the command lines. The original users of the unix command line used short abbreviated commands because they were efficient. They didn't have one command for listing files, and then require another one to list properties (stat), and then another to line things up and then another to put things out in a different format. Basic formatting was included in the basic, most used commands. But most of all, short commands led to fewer errors. Having to type in 2 or more commands to do what could be done in 8 characters would be an anathema to early unix designers. The need to call some other utility to do something that could be more easily done in 1 creates a whole can of worms The suggestions I've made involve making things simpler for users. It's not about how well you can string different commands together it's about making this short and concise. More than one source on computer languages talk about brevity in a language being inversely proportional to power in a language. pain. It ignore that basic fact is insensitive and masochistic. I certainly don't need longer repetitive lines to do the same tying I could do in 3... The point is how can I do what I mean as concisely as possible. > suited for these things. > I have no intention of implementing this functionality. --- You said it could be better done in an alias. I say -- no, it cannot. I'm not talking about righting extra code for find nor something lone. Inherently, aliases are short. You imply it it easy by claiming it can be done in an alias. If it was easy, it would be easier for you to through out a one- liner than respond to the last note. >>> As for #3 - The "expand" program already does tab-expansion. >>> It can be easily combined with existing programs using >>> a simple shell function. ---- The need to call another program to generate basic consistent output is a sign of dysfunction. > With the unix philosophy of "each program should do one thing, and do it > well", ---- That's not the unix philosophy by itself. If it was, ls would only list filenames, and would call stat, expand and table commands to format things. once one learns how to use "expand" (or fmt, numfmt, awk and > similar text formatting programs) - they can use them to format output > from any program - saving lots of time in re-implementing the same > functionality in different programs. --- You can also put those in libs with the main program calling those libs based on args using dynamic run-time loading. > these are all tangents. > The topic of this thread is adding support for a global configuration > file. That request is not likely to be implemented. ---- One of the main points here was that some of those other features were discarded because there was no easy way of providing a default configuration for how users wanted these things. That argument clearly goes in circles. The hazard of using it as a reason for not supplying various features is that it becomes necessary to provide that feature as it is a noted requirement for a score of other features. > > > To continue discussing other topics or feature requests (e.g. > tab-expansion) - please start a new dedicated thread. ---- Dedicated to what? Each problem that need a configuration file? Or a configuration facility to provide a ready backdrop to allow for tool extensibility? It seems they are interrelated. I seem to remember this statement by you: "Discussion can continue by replying to this thread." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 31 09:16:30 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Dec 2018 14:16:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42906 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gdyMo-0005Ko-9K for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:16:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:60926) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gdyMm-0005Kf-9D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:16:28 -0500 Received: from listsout.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:50938) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gdyMl-00044D-ID for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:16:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:40430) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gdyMk-0002y5-47 for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:16:27 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FREEMAIL_FROM autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gdyMc-0003Lf-Qc for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:16:25 -0500 Received: from mail-pf1-x441.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::441]:37566) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gdyMS-0002Qi-9J for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 09:16:10 -0500 Received: by mail-pf1-x441.google.com with SMTP id y126so13267121pfb.4 for ; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 06:16:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=674qvLpXTobdoleDax93I9dge5jCxqAhMe7h7weglP4=; b=VpHBoeglvz2OUT1H+6nmFskksVxi+yNIBDHJ464ZcwioUcd8vPD/wMy5UBuiBqGZsd uByS3wFo+uwT7jo+DiYCmG2E/V38NNCoGr4UVdaldp64QpRmp+bQ7l/BCaMiKAMGCRrL g8LIyd4lY5AWm0KTWN2593IOsyN3LhnJvgSQQrVZRbRe8RaRgvDWvmPANpHfpGt2v9c+ m7OGxlkF/unx1cc4T1KCYqdf7xdDJ6Zx+9WnRJpSkKjppSQ3nozaEZSalyrPh1yvWTGk CpX2rUt8Lbk7z2p5/9jYf+HxrXlfmykmwfsF9lRxYLUA1PZICWsNWTYYvCFQ8/y3HQt6 ECgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=674qvLpXTobdoleDax93I9dge5jCxqAhMe7h7weglP4=; b=CNI+8SIkWvSRXgfyJaqPRZJxehm+vBzM8SMw/Z2OrFdrbHSSLfjw+d9+uWeZO0bJfg S5reW3HpgBXq0LSuUOrZBfeYZNO21t+HePAm0c4LZCXTfiTJU8arPtHeifu6PuG/T3/T 54I0Zor8ocA9JaroYPWYzUKJ+QnQFx/zjd10BA5dpcEuo+WYRD9RVZ+BX6QZQBPegmMm x5al2yPMXXwHRkBeDzu3iRGbiXG0hBghiBEexBuUTGpvwLBHxm+o/q/SsQil7RRbvZhF niD7jhM6YMPlk3JommTT3LAUAyv9Vmol1ATw/3ADIP7gyIPYdOQ8myDvcJoY1+wGgHfr h3ng== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbEL0X1jUMj777vBy+pLPoLRxfhpJ0wwnEHxXTDWNyANIYersZ3 BJD80HAYGI/eoWbPClqUuZr0XOnD X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XJzZW3hIjxMR/UIrPyvMZGziv91yZ57wPT7hqnattXdPtDSWUb3a+vJJ5WL0Ash8/MFStCKg== X-Received: by 2002:a62:5fc4:: with SMTP id t187mr38541230pfb.66.1546265764743; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 06:16:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomato.housegordon.com (moose.housegordon.com. [184.68.105.38]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id y184sm68783946pgd.71.2018.12.31.06.16.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Dec 2018 06:16:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior To: L A Walsh References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> <5C29FF4D.9090705@tlinx.org> <0cd02b95-dea6-cdeb-ef02-9b4d144cf9a6@gmail.com> <5C2A1896.2040300@tlinx.org> From: Assaf Gordon Message-ID: Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 07:16:01 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5C2A1896.2040300@tlinx.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::441 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x [fuzzy] X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 33787@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert , Coreutils X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Hello, On 2018-12-31 6:24 a.m., L A Walsh wrote: > On 12/31/2018 4:23 AM, Assaf Gordon wrote: >> these are all tangents. >> The topic of this thread is adding support for a global configuration >> file.   That request is not likely to be implemented. > ---- >     One of the main points here was that some of those other features > were discarded because there was no easy way of providing > a default configuration for how users wanted these things. I'm not familiar with any feature request that was rejected because there was "no easy way of providing default configuration". Feature requests/suggestions might be rejected because coreutils maintainers were not convinced they were warranted or useful or did not pass muster in the trade-off between bloat and functionality. Again - this is not about a generally rejected feature, but about a feature that was deemed useful but was rejected because there was no easy way to configure it (or, control it from the command line?). If there are specific cases of requests that were denied because there was no easy way to configure the feature - please provide a link to such discussion - that will help more the discussion forward. >> To continue discussing other topics or feature requests (e.g. >>   tab-expansion) - please start a new dedicated thread. > ---- >     Dedicated to what? Dedicated to one topic. "Adding global configuration file to all coreutils programs" is one such topic. Implementing 'rm --depth-first' is a completely different topic and should be discussed in a separate thread. Adding tab-expansion to program X is yet another distinct topic. > Each problem that need a configuration file?  Or a configuration > facility to provide a ready backdrop to allow for tool extensibility? > It seems they are interrelated. Interrelated does not mean they are the same topic. To help clarify, in the context of "coreutils" think of a "topic" as a task or feature that a programmer develops. Adding "rm --depth-first" feature is a task that a programmer can develop regardless of whether program X supports tab-expansion. Adding support for global configuration file is a task that can be completed regardless of whether rm supports "--depth-first" or not. etc. etc. As such, it helps us (coreutils maintainers) and others (anyone else who is subscribed to the mailing list) to keep each thread to one topic. That way, a discussion thread has a start, middle, and (hopefully) end. If a thread goes on and on and covers multiple topics, it makes it hard to keep track of what is going on and what is discussed. This is especially true for mailing lists which use the bug tracker (like bug-coreutils@gnu.org). Every new topic email creates a new bug report page. In this thread it is here: https://bugs.gnu.org/33787 . If the thread is long and covers many topics, it makes it very hard to manage bugs (e.g. classify them and address them). > I seem to remember this statement by you: > > "Discussion can continue by replying to this thread." Always true. But it helps if the discussion is focused on one topic (the original topic from the first message in the thread). regards, - assaf From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jan 02 21:07:34 2019 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Jan 2019 02:07:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45093 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gesQ2-0006OS-GX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2019 21:07:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:37277) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gesQ0-0006OK-Cu for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2019 21:07:32 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]:33793) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gesPz-0000Xa-7q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2019 21:07:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:35317) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gesPy-0008HZ-1B for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2019 21:07:31 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gesPs-0000GW-3Q for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2019 21:07:30 -0500 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:51938) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gesPq-0008UG-D1 for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2019 21:07:23 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96E5B160E07; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 18:07:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id D6whDCigj3Z1; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 18:07:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9008C160EED; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 18:07:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id daaM7EFobhiF; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 18:07:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-23-242-74-103.socal.res.rr.com [23.242.74.103]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 638C4160D3B; Wed, 2 Jan 2019 18:07:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#33787: Policy Change: Use of /etc/gnu.conf files to configure default system behavior To: L A Walsh , Assaf Gordon References: <5C189DF3.3070003@tlinx.org> <50fbb6ff-2cae-66e8-d111-e5b83cb93fb9@cs.ucla.edu> <5C1C1A70.7020109@tlinx.org> <500537c4-41ab-2271-d5ec-368d5de4a749@gmail.com> <5C1C3585.3020609@tlinx.org> <5C29FF4D.9090705@tlinx.org> <0cd02b95-dea6-cdeb-ef02-9b4d144cf9a6@gmail.com> <5C2A1896.2040300@tlinx.org> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <304a4350-dab7-2649-6856-260015be60a9@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 18:07:17 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5C2A1896.2040300@tlinx.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 131.179.128.68 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 33787@debbugs.gnu.org, Coreutils X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) L A Walsh wrote: > They didn't have one command for listing files, and then require another one > to list properties (stat), and then another to line things up and then another to > put things out in a different format. Uh, no. For example, you can see examples of using two or more commands in Kernighan and Mashey's 1981 paper "The Unix Programming Environment", which contains this example: ls | pr -4 | lpr which lists files with one command, and then uses another to line them up, exactly the sort of thing you're saying these people didn't have. The paper goes on to give statistics of how often people in the early Unix years used the technique recommended if you don't like the default behavior: have a small shell script that establishes the behavior you want. Kernighan and Mashey write, "it has become common for each user to have a collection of personal commands, a result of the fact that the shell permits users to alter the default search path for finding commands. These personal commands are almost invariably shell programs.... people make significant use of shell procedures to customize the general environment to their personal needs". So it's not like we're suggesting anything new here. Kernighan BW, Mashey JR. The Unix programming environment. Computer. 1981 Apr;14(4):12-24. https://www.computer.org/csdl/mags/co/1981/04/01667315.pdf From unknown Wed Jun 18 23:09:21 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 12:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator