From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 06 20:05:28 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Oct 2018 00:05:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38924 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g8wZc-0003US-3p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 20:05:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42907) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g8wZY-0003UE-6d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 20:05:25 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g8wZN-0000ie-P6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 20:05:18 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:38332) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g8wZG-0000cE-N3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 20:05:08 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52515) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g8wZF-0006wK-S3 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 20:05:06 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g8wZ9-0000Yw-PQ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 20:05:03 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:52662) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g8wZ9-0000XY-AO for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Oct 2018 20:04:59 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w97008Aj146341 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2018 00:04:58 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=uMo2CowUdiba5y6A8fAtY5qMi0jgK6oXawrlFMVyeqM=; b=0LkAkUmXo7HHrJQDuCV/UUHGUt0sDeJNz13WStNz/44vgiLRP+7jDdXgD/CK2aCNfcpB BxFpNWTgkPhWQ9nmsZx/+z0cjO1Mf+wlGUf04+woT2LYcdt37IEPNv5LVjuCNeKoeyHc fRDAGlq1eOZHWjIoEjADWNbBjb8Vs6acis7t0yUPLk2ttQEj7QFCDS00DTeNqu5C8+VG 6O5Sit075i+7NhRL3kqF22nBMKWrShhGTAl5/H5CCIIzcJAvSmUaDzoINCQiSvtLPxaK U6ZGZWe3ofX5aSVkEa1NEqMJQzY+mqgAPAmVR7VdJAAhSY7jzbFWHzyOzA6UyimGgwbd CA== Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2mxn0phpnk-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2018 00:04:58 +0000 Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w9704vit008243 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2018 00:04:57 GMT Received: from ubhmp0017.oracle.com (ubhmp0017.oracle.com [156.151.24.70]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w9704vfK015232 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2018 00:04:57 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <9b01a158-aff2-42b2-88e3-c29d704cc22a@default> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 00:04:56 +0000 (UTC) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 26; Emacs manual index entry `C-SPC C-SPC disabling Transient Mark' X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4735.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=9038 signatures=668706 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=1 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1810060244 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) This index entry seems to be misnamed. Compare, for example, the index entry for `C-u C-x C-x' (which goes to the same node). The latter entry is named just `C-u C-x C-x', not `C-u C-x C-x disabling Transient Mark'. Why would `C-SPC C-SPC' be associated with disabling transient-mark mode, since it in fact activates the mode temporarily. What's more, something that did, in fact, disable `transient-mark-mode' should be called "disabling transient mark mode', not "disabling transient mark" (which doesn't mean anything, AFAIK), let alone "disabling Transient Mark" (no reason to capitalize). Seems like the entry name should just be `C-SPC C-SPC'. Beyond the name of this entry, this doc seems confusing to me. Should it talk about turning the mode on/off, or about enabling/disabling the mode, or about activating/deactivating the mode. The node uses all three, which only confuses. We do identify turning a mode on/off with enabling/disabling the mode, so using both of those, or even a mix, is not a problem. But I don't think the doc should speak of activating the mode: "you an activate it temporarily using...". You don't activate a mode. You can activate the region or activate the mark, but not a mode. And in terms of the index entry in question, you do not disable (or enable) a transient mark. This subject is already difficult enough - even just the notion of an active region/mark and the notion of transient-mark mode. Adding temporarily enabling that mode makes things even more complicated - difficult to understand. This doc needs to be clear and straightforward, to set these things straight. Please consider somehow clarifying things in this node, in addition to renaming index entry `C-SPC C-SPC, disabling Transient Mark'. Whatever you come up with is fine by me - I'm sure it will be an improvement. In GNU Emacs 26.1 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2018-05-30 Repository revision: 07f8f9bc5a51f5aa94eb099f3e15fbe0c20ea1ea Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.16299 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 12 04:35:47 2018 Received: (at 32959-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2018 08:35:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45910 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gAsvC-0006TQ-UE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2018 04:35:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:46106) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gAsvB-0006T7-Lo for 32959-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2018 04:35:46 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gAsv2-0002Yq-CK for 32959-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2018 04:35:40 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:48079) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gAsv1-0002YD-C6; Fri, 12 Oct 2018 04:35:36 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2108 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1gAsv0-0007ax-UT; Fri, 12 Oct 2018 04:35:35 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 11:35:36 +0300 Message-Id: <83k1mnwoiv.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <9b01a158-aff2-42b2-88e3-c29d704cc22a@default> (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 7 Oct 2018 00:04:56 +0000 (UTC)) Subject: Re: bug#32959: 26; Emacs manual index entry `C-SPC C-SPC disabling Transient Mark' References: <9b01a158-aff2-42b2-88e3-c29d704cc22a@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32959-done Cc: 32959-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 00:04:56 +0000 (UTC) > From: Drew Adams > > This index entry seems to be misnamed. Compare, for example, the index > entry for `C-u C-x C-x' (which goes to the same node). The latter entry > is named just `C-u C-x C-x', not `C-u C-x C-x disabling Transient Mark'. There is already an index entry "C-SPC C-SPC", so we need to disambiguate the second one. I changed the qualification to say "enabling Transient Mark mode temporarily". > Seems like the entry name should just be `C-SPC C-SPC'. No, see above. > Beyond the name of this entry, this doc seems confusing to me. > > Should it talk about turning the mode on/off, or about > enabling/disabling the mode, or about activating/deactivating the mode. > The node uses all three, which only confuses. I don't find it confusing at all, so I didn't change the text. Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 12 10:00:57 2018 Received: (at 32959-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2018 14:00:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47355 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gAxzs-0003lB-Ex for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:00:57 -0400 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:54084) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gAxzp-0003kv-Te for 32959-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:00:54 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w9CDwdDk188133; Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:00:48 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=FvN1t3GPNcKHfzx/vSkFBiWg/3IzYt2gYGlGbKFeVk4=; b=yt1y+gYNIR5ZrEO3xmjOCcZsayjDHR9zz2VLdQo+k5vDCdV6978AjPe6FTMKABX4b6fD wNC5wnZroWC87Yy+ybYTambB2SkLMyjYJxF61Ih9LDw9rtdBP5LXCix/HMIuKDDckpr9 FyFEEQhBGoi1K6UoOzaezc+idgbXyQCLwJzxtV7NvX3ByHmQCNwnDyVFpE0f1BX+zNHn Ll2c5Ubru4ar0r7z/dd6/F8xzZEIumBUppKP8BbR21ED5Y2+roN4fU6e/LN2HRDAHfYd EeLKEoqEcowcbjMR4Fx34viN22N2YWzW2MFO1KFBT9GrVxh9Eltto40o1/SKqxk5sp3F Gw== Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2mxmfuauwp-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:00:47 +0000 Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w9CE0kfT031733 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:00:46 GMT Received: from abhmp0004.oracle.com (abhmp0004.oracle.com [141.146.116.10]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w9CE0jY6013539; Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:00:45 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:00:44 +0000 (UTC) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: RE: bug#32959: 26; Emacs manual index entry `C-SPC C-SPC disabling Transient Mark' References: <<9b01a158-aff2-42b2-88e3-c29d704cc22a@default>> <<83k1mnwoiv.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83k1mnwoiv.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4735.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=9043 signatures=668706 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1810120139 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32959-done Cc: 32959-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > This index entry seems to be misnamed. Compare, for example, the index > > entry for `C-u C-x C-x' (which goes to the same node). The latter entr= y > > is named just `C-u C-x C-x', not `C-u C-x C-x disabling Transient Mark'= . >=20 > There is already an index entry "C-SPC C-SPC", so we need to > disambiguate the second one. In that case, the plain `C-SPC C-SPC' should be something like `C-SPC C-SPC, set mark without activating'. > I changed the qualification to say "enabling Transient Mark > mode temporarily". That's certainly better than "disabling". Thx. > > Beyond the name of this entry, this doc seems confusing to me. > > > > Should it talk about turning the mode on/off, or about > > enabling/disabling the mode, or about activating/deactivating the mode. > > The node uses all three, which only confuses. >=20 > I don't find it confusing at all, so I didn't change the text. Do you know of other places in Emacs where we speak of activating/deactivating a _mode_? Actually, yes, it turns out there are a few - but very few. Should you change your mind and decide to correct them, here they are: In the Emacs manual: Node `CUA Bindings': "CUA mode by default activates Delete-Selection mode..." Node `Indentation Commands': "the command activates a transient mode..." Node `Key Bindings': "activating a mode might override your..." In the Elisp manual: Node `Minor Modes': "possible to activate and deactivate minor modes..." That's it, for the manuals - 4 occurrences altogether. In doc strings, we also have a few occurrences: vc-mode: "This minor mode is automatically activated..." allout-mode: "automatic activation of `allout-mode'" allout-auto-activation: "outline mode auto-activation" Info-edit-mode-hook: `Info-edit-mode' is activated indent-rigidly: "any other key deactivates the transient mode" set-mark-command: "activates `transient-mark-mode'" follow-delete-other-windows-and-split: "Follow mode is activated" ps-prologue-file: "major/minor-mode is activated" isearch-yank-word-or-char: "`subword-mode' is activated" vc-refresh-state: "VC mode is deactivated" That's very few occurrences, for all of Emacs: 4 in manuals, 10 in doc stri= ngs. I would say "turn on" or "enable" a mode, which is what Emacs says everywhere else, AFAIK. These occurrences are just typos/slips, I imagine. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 12 10:11:16 2018 Received: (at 32959) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Oct 2018 14:11:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47362 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gAy9s-00040j-5g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:11:16 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:37370) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gAy9q-00040W-KX for 32959@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:11:14 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gAy9h-0001db-KF for 32959@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:11:09 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:36348) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gAy9d-0001Vs-R6; Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:11:03 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3224 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1gAy9b-0004Pm-GX; Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:10:59 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 17:11:02 +0300 Message-Id: <83a7njw8zt.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: (message from Drew Adams on Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:00:44 +0000 (UTC)) Subject: Re: bug#32959: 26; Emacs manual index entry `C-SPC C-SPC disabling Transient Mark' References: <<9b01a158-aff2-42b2-88e3-c29d704cc22a@default>> <<83k1mnwoiv.fsf@gnu.org>> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32959 Cc: 32959@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:00:44 +0000 (UTC) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 32959-done@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > This index entry seems to be misnamed. Compare, for example, the index > > > entry for `C-u C-x C-x' (which goes to the same node). The latter entry > > > is named just `C-u C-x C-x', not `C-u C-x C-x disabling Transient Mark'. > > > > There is already an index entry "C-SPC C-SPC", so we need to > > disambiguate the second one. > > In that case, the plain `C-SPC C-SPC' should be something like > `C-SPC C-SPC, set mark without activating'. I don't agree. My rule is to have the unqualified name where the subject is described in its fullest, and qualify the places which describe its minor aspects and variations. > That's very few occurrences, for all of Emacs: 4 in manuals, 10 in doc strings. Maybe so, but it's a valid use of the wording. From unknown Fri Jun 13 10:52:28 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 12:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator