GNU bug report logs - #32959
26; Emacs manual index entry `C-SPC C-SPC disabling Transient Mark'

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 26; Emacs manual index entry `C-SPC C-SPC disabling Transient Mark'
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 00:04:56 +0000 (UTC)

This index entry seems to be misnamed.  Compare, for example, the index
entry for `C-u C-x C-x' (which goes to the same node).  The latter entry
is named just `C-u C-x C-x', not `C-u C-x C-x disabling Transient Mark'.

Why would `C-SPC C-SPC' be associated with disabling transient-mark
mode, since it in fact activates the mode temporarily.  What's more,
something that did, in fact, disable `transient-mark-mode' should be
called "disabling transient mark mode', not "disabling transient mark"
(which doesn't mean anything, AFAIK), let alone "disabling Transient
Mark" (no reason to capitalize).

Seems like the entry name should just be `C-SPC C-SPC'.

Beyond the name of this entry, this doc seems confusing to me.

Should it talk about turning the mode on/off, or about
enabling/disabling the mode, or about activating/deactivating the mode.
The node uses all three, which only confuses.

We do identify turning a mode on/off with enabling/disabling the mode,
so using both of those, or even a mix, is not a problem.  But I don't
think the doc should speak of activating the mode: "you an activate it
temporarily using...".  You don't activate a mode.  You can activate the
region or activate the mark, but not a mode.  And in terms of the index
entry in question, you do not disable (or enable) a transient mark.

This subject is already difficult enough - even just the notion of an
active region/mark and the notion of transient-mark mode.  Adding
temporarily enabling that mode makes things even more complicated -
difficult to understand.  This doc needs to be clear and
straightforward, to set these things straight.

Please consider somehow clarifying things in this node, in addition to
renaming index entry `C-SPC C-SPC, disabling Transient Mark'.  Whatever
you come up with is fine by me - I'm sure it will be an improvement.

In GNU Emacs 26.1 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32)
 of 2018-05-30
Repository revision: 07f8f9bc5a51f5aa94eb099f3e15fbe0c20ea1ea
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.16299
Configured using:
 `configure --without-dbus --host=x86_64-w64-mingw32
 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=-O2 -static -g3''

Message #10 received at 32959-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 32959-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#32959: 26;
 Emacs manual index entry `C-SPC C-SPC disabling Transient Mark'
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 11:35:36 +0300

> Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 00:04:56 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
> 
> This index entry seems to be misnamed.  Compare, for example, the index
> entry for `C-u C-x C-x' (which goes to the same node).  The latter entry
> is named just `C-u C-x C-x', not `C-u C-x C-x disabling Transient Mark'.

There is already an index entry "C-SPC C-SPC", so we need to
disambiguate the second one.

I changed the qualification to say "enabling Transient Mark
mode temporarily".

> Seems like the entry name should just be `C-SPC C-SPC'.

No, see above.

> Beyond the name of this entry, this doc seems confusing to me.
> 
> Should it talk about turning the mode on/off, or about
> enabling/disabling the mode, or about activating/deactivating the mode.
> The node uses all three, which only confuses.

I don't find it confusing at all, so I didn't change the text.

Thanks.

Message #13 received at 32959-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 32959-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#32959: 26;	Emacs manual index entry `C-SPC C-SPC disabling
 Transient Mark'
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:00:44 +0000 (UTC)

> > This index entry seems to be misnamed.  Compare, for example, the index
> > entry for `C-u C-x C-x' (which goes to the same node).  The latter entry
> > is named just `C-u C-x C-x', not `C-u C-x C-x disabling Transient Mark'.
> 
> There is already an index entry "C-SPC C-SPC", so we need to
> disambiguate the second one.

In that case, the plain `C-SPC C-SPC' should be something like
`C-SPC C-SPC, set mark without activating'.

> I changed the qualification to say "enabling Transient Mark
> mode temporarily".

That's certainly better than "disabling". Thx.

> > Beyond the name of this entry, this doc seems confusing to me.
> >
> > Should it talk about turning the mode on/off, or about
> > enabling/disabling the mode, or about activating/deactivating the mode.
> > The node uses all three, which only confuses.
> 
> I don't find it confusing at all, so I didn't change the text.

Do you know of other places in Emacs where we speak of
activating/deactivating a _mode_? Actually, yes, it turns
out there are a few - but very few. Should you change
your mind and decide to correct them, here they are:

In the Emacs manual:

Node `CUA Bindings':
"CUA mode by default activates Delete-Selection mode..."

Node `Indentation Commands':
"the command activates a transient mode..."

Node `Key Bindings':
"activating a mode might override your..."

In the Elisp manual:

Node `Minor Modes':
"possible to activate and deactivate minor modes..."

That's it, for the manuals - 4 occurrences altogether.

In doc strings, we also have a few occurrences:

vc-mode: "This minor mode is automatically activated..."
allout-mode: "automatic activation of `allout-mode'"
allout-auto-activation: "outline mode auto-activation"
Info-edit-mode-hook: `Info-edit-mode' is activated
indent-rigidly: "any other key deactivates the transient mode"
set-mark-command: "activates `transient-mark-mode'"
follow-delete-other-windows-and-split: "Follow mode is activated"
ps-prologue-file: "major/minor-mode is activated"
isearch-yank-word-or-char: "`subword-mode' is activated"
vc-refresh-state: "VC mode is deactivated"

That's very few occurrences, for all of Emacs: 4 in manuals, 10 in doc strings.

I would say "turn on" or "enable" a mode, which is what
Emacs says everywhere else, AFAIK. These occurrences
are just typos/slips, I imagine.

Message #16 received at 32959 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 32959 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#32959: 26;	Emacs manual index entry `C-SPC C-SPC disabling
 Transient Mark'
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 17:11:02 +0300

> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:00:44 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
> Cc: 32959-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > > This index entry seems to be misnamed.  Compare, for example, the index
> > > entry for `C-u C-x C-x' (which goes to the same node).  The latter entry
> > > is named just `C-u C-x C-x', not `C-u C-x C-x disabling Transient Mark'.
> > 
> > There is already an index entry "C-SPC C-SPC", so we need to
> > disambiguate the second one.
> 
> In that case, the plain `C-SPC C-SPC' should be something like
> `C-SPC C-SPC, set mark without activating'.

I don't agree.  My rule is to have the unqualified name where the
subject is described in its fullest, and qualify the places which
describe its minor aspects and variations.

> That's very few occurrences, for all of Emacs: 4 in manuals, 10 in doc strings.

Maybe so, but it's a valid use of the wording.

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