From unknown Sun Jun 22 11:33:48 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#32578 <32578@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#32578 <32578@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation Reply-To: bug#32578 <32578@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 18:33:48 +0000 retitle 32578 Remove "joke" from drag events documentation reassign 32578 emacs submitter 32578 Chris Shea severity 32578 wishlist tag 32578 patch wontfix thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 29 13:47:17 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Aug 2018 17:47:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37366 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fv4Ym-0002ly-9C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:47:16 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:39967) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fv4I1-0002MC-08 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:29:57 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fv4Hu-000686-Pp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:29:51 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:44156) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fv4Hu-00067v-Lc for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:29:50 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60948) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fv4Ht-0003ql-Qy for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:29:50 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fv4Ht-00067R-37 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:29:49 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]:43249) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fv4Hs-00066n-Q5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:29:49 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id h64-v6so4927778lfi.10 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 10:29:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=3SwK1+59xTYsQVEkBsznmPzDRV6eI/Tv+9njNp6PMdM=; b=Q/LiDIIFsIi3hXYyEWYdaRemo+hZ7usda+ozoI5THz7JULguztgRjB/U532z3eGw7k 8wazaTIT2i8WHDiGj1aEUj0E1mwFIoFltAA15K79E9MhT4P9gN/BEFLy2WB3umsrUthD eCEHdKv/TvfxfnZUe2binvG2gkBSxTU3VVJ1ymDsWxL0htd3Lfl2ML1y56dbE+a+4VBz GIWf8ZLUA+IjvTR60RMt/Un9id+00n0NZTPreu2NllH/urTLI5ug3DZInhLaC09gP3jk cvyuskLPKlFIzSlpWNKRRH7z2SJNqZ4OIm4Q3+x5v5BFNANmOP/dfbJWMCBPEVcGyMgR XgUw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=3SwK1+59xTYsQVEkBsznmPzDRV6eI/Tv+9njNp6PMdM=; b=OMIoIA8TP/NKg3bHEao7Cenem+LfZNgIeU9WtqmpzT0tSSdO9f+AcGoT9iCqAt46PU MC9oh0GnJGc+sFPnBTwxgkg6SOm1fi3raVnwnZgSPXECpXQ8B7B+wGCAbqogFhVRRzL+ AZBPK3nzgRBFJG+4qxn+FL7Bz0elCRYi7NYFVVthmgb9e1xGAFw8Q/Hxh86OE1gs2g2z 3KXigzQse6ZNi8qnZx7X/GyGsiN+ZFEx84Q/MJjVgLS/U/gjMFYalmGH3vXOXbDyFQc/ 7ul0o52w44wkTkWxfOBip2FRHlbxxDkJDV7XPjZH+uC+ggh/Kb80ZaNxjiwMcSl9cdWw osvw== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51APq/hrsGbJuAVvIjpXI9sGYaAGyT2QErAp3obQrMCeGslwtnW8 hVxMkZAE+iVpJKFoyNKvxcjJ5cxKbKePDOcVoeQ/CcFY X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdajWV+DiG+ywiT7URU++jeWTvVRsxqMyCvlt7aNsb6CsnQ6QrisraCsxlqOolCn3vz0K685iHoKT4q/fb/HPHk= X-Received: by 2002:a19:db94:: with SMTP id t20-v6mr4895985lfi.126.1535563786943; Wed, 29 Aug 2018 10:29:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Chris Shea Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:29:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0000000000000d1f660574964e93" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:47:14 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) --0000000000000d1f660574964e93 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000d1f630574964e91" --0000000000000d1f630574964e91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the drag events documentation. Documentation should be informative and inclusive. Thanks, --0000000000000d1f630574964e91 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Hello,

This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the drag events documentation. Documentation should be informative and inclusive.

Thanks,
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Documentation should be informative and inclusive. I'm a bit on the fence about this. On the one hand, I remember seeing the joke some time ago and finding it hilarious. On the other hand, I remember feeling good about removing other jokes from Emacs sources, which were _really_ offensive. This one seems to be far, far from offensive anyway, and if anyone feels offended by this, they probably well deserve it. Disclosure: I know (and often tell myself) jokes about groups of people _I_ belong to which are probably much more "offensive" than this one (though obviously I may be biased). I can provide a sample on request. I don't see how the relevant portion can be seen as not informative. BTW, I am now coauthoring a book on pretty advanced mathematics (nonlinear analysis), and we try to put quite a lot of jokes into it. Well-placed jokes do not make a book/documentation less informative, but more pleasant to read. (Unfortunately, there is nothing about "drag events" in the book.) If I were to made a decision, I would probably (a bit reluctantly, but still) leave it, so that Emacs does not succumb to the idiocy called "political correctness". Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 30 03:50:10 2018 Received: (at 32578) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2018 07:50:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37861 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvHiU-0001tY-LP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 03:50:10 -0400 Received: from forward102p.mail.yandex.net ([77.88.28.102]:56846) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvHiS-0001t5-0I for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 03:50:09 -0400 Received: from mxback4g.mail.yandex.net (mxback4g.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1472:2741:0:8b7:165]) by forward102p.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 73C38430330A; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 10:50:01 +0300 (MSK) Received: from smtp3p.mail.yandex.net (smtp3p.mail.yandex.net [2a02:6b8:0:1472:2741:0:8b6:8]) by mxback4g.mail.yandex.net (nwsmtp/Yandex) with ESMTP id 4tuaHzeOO2-o0MW6Lar; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 10:50:00 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.com; s=mail; t=1535615400; bh=Ri9f5B9Nld/bQmQDy3cwAu3GNPfk7ZFqvZ0eWlQ/i+s=; h=From:To:Cc:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:Message-ID; b=SxuhxRy5PZbJLKASIrQAmrE/ovq1U6SFqgf2EMrupOhI3Slk4YZu+DvUxYDgBG66j U9fph3y9juvu5GnbJevoMOn/CwUl/oh1hOoE4TwF/wlUuxBIcF5SF3sPBDQiNC6Gk4 0lYmqX0GffoZkZBXRlclwzxKqSAPtUQIcYOy9p8o= Received: by smtp3p.mail.yandex.net (nwsmtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id xWKr2Va6ht-nw30brH1; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 10:49:58 +0300 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client certificate not present) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.com; s=mail; t=1535615399; bh=Ri9f5B9Nld/bQmQDy3cwAu3GNPfk7ZFqvZ0eWlQ/i+s=; h=From:To:Cc:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:Message-ID; b=n+pjbORR7560016mJty5ru2zZ50edQsKUZS+HdkSM4D/LBAuagepbNLSfqGaOzyZU 8moGx/ughMfpJdexzWLbP8l73a+7ECjTxP5uI7II9+AB1rnfCKWNnaxzignUWmQO27 65nwzu/GDgcVXAw/s44xfMG1MJhOBpi0J5LBOywI= Authentication-Results: smtp3p.mail.yandex.net; dkim=pass header.i=@yandex.com From: Colin Baxter To: Marcin Borkowski Subject: Re: bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation References: <87h8jc2ue4.fsf@mbork.pl> X-Face: -P+89ASh_wrs;AUGm`!l[}/o-lyK}5W.gq\fkJ{#d6Gu,hWrZNz::iMm5PJb} __A96]-LUrl)X=uF=V|\3-\9/sXvBs/H Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 08:49:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87h8jc2ue4.fsf@mbork.pl> (Marcin Borkowski's message of "Thu, 30 Aug 2018 09:20:03 +0200") Message-ID: <87sh2w5m56.fsf@yandex.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACwAAAAMCAIAAACWSshgAAAABmJLR0QA/wD/AP+gvaeTAAAA hklEQVQ4je2UwQ3CQAwEh8gR3IGolQ5TAr3w4mIT8wAa8PLM/nc1stc+LAvTRFmPO9db3Q5sYL1j Vo+IIxeJgQBrjXmuR4wTXYNwEDbxP5k7mXW/B6tGEGARWkSgBRBgmdIkMhHcAPm5DqWYa+OsQezF /OlbTAnCcQ3iBTaG9LZH8NQgNngDnag2wOvtnJ4AAAAASUVORK5CYII= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32578 Cc: Chris Shea , , 32578@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) >>>>> Marcin Borkowski writes: > On 2018-08-29, at 19:29, Chris Shea wrote: >> Hello, >> >> This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the >> drag events documentation. Documentation should be informative >> and inclusive. > I'm a bit on the fence about this. On the one hand, I remember > seeing the joke some time ago and finding it hilarious. On the > other hand, I remember feeling good about removing other jokes > from Emacs sources, which were _really_ offensive. This one seems > to be far, far from offensive anyway, and if anyone feels offended > by this, they probably well deserve it. Disclosure: I know (and > often tell myself) jokes about groups of people _I_ belong to > which are probably much more "offensive" than this one (though > obviously I may be biased). I can provide a sample on request. > I don't see how the relevant portion can be seen as not > informative. > BTW, I am now coauthoring a book on pretty advanced mathematics > (nonlinear analysis), and we try to put quite a lot of jokes into > it. Well-placed jokes do not make a book/documentation less > informative, but more pleasant to read. (Unfortunately, there is > nothing about "drag events" in the book.) > If I were to made a decision, I would probably (a bit reluctantly, > but still) leave it, so that Emacs does not succumb to the idiocy > called "political correctness". > Best, > -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl I agree with Marcin's comments and would add that a joke is hardly a bug. Perhaps the original poster should place the suggestion elsewhere, maybe emacs.devel? Best wishes From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 30 05:13:52 2018 Received: (at 32578) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2018 09:13:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37899 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvJ1T-0003sO-Vs for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 05:13:52 -0400 Received: from smtp-1.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.4.34]:60583) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvJ1R-0003sD-1H for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 05:13:50 -0400 Received: from [10.253.37.70] (port=8931 helo=webmail.orcon.net.nz) by smtp-1.orcon.net.nz with esmtpa (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvJ1O-0006K8-Dv; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:13:46 +1200 Received: from wlgwil-nat-office.catalyst.net.nz ([202.78.240.7]) via [10.253.37.253] by webmail.orcon.net.nz with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:13:46 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:13:46 +1200 From: Phil Sainty To: Colin Baxter Subject: Re: bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation In-Reply-To: <87sh2w5m56.fsf@yandex.com> References: <87h8jc2ue4.fsf@mbork.pl> <87sh2w5m56.fsf@yandex.com> Message-ID: X-Sender: psainty@orcon.net.nz User-Agent: Orcon Webmail X-GeoIP: -- X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32578 Cc: 32578@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 2018-08-30 19:49, Colin Baxter wrote: > a joke is hardly a bug. Suggestions for improving the documentation absolutely belong here. "This list is for bug reports, feature requests, and suggestions for improving GNU Emacs." -- https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/bug-gnu-emacs From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 30 09:51:37 2018 Received: (at 32578) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2018 13:51:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38109 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvNMH-0008Tn-9R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 09:51:37 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-f178.google.com ([209.85.208.178]:36435) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvNME-0008TW-Rh for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 09:51:36 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-f178.google.com with SMTP id v26-v6so7337814ljj.3 for <32578@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 06:51:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4r6O256qvTyzRG5BiFNMOgEFacWUGugrrO1igWcl8Yg=; b=uZLFUoQ1eTomyIcDohevwaQNz3Em5Gqkld97GhNBt89ieXySMy+0A0OdKQaEZ+jK42 SNHLR67M0ljcis/OEPu/B4XpbIZeIrULbmNcKdN4MldzDqsm3MsOjvprHk65aFAPxTgA +286oGhsKcjftZaWgeg/GkCsUmI6z2BirphIJ2obesPbZB0uIdBz3oUGpVwrwgsG+T2x 0aQnjisir9bc+EijLonBmC/Hmu8JsGQuDGxbyrGo7uyh/bv1Bn/gers5HgUtidRb0pfl oEIpu/iTNcY4VcGoSHDyTQ1AwIYw/Y7Ch89kG0W5y6WxMz/CJydvNBGNbjJeb3KgWymK c7Xw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4r6O256qvTyzRG5BiFNMOgEFacWUGugrrO1igWcl8Yg=; b=VSdQK7kFL55j7UVcC3AOz+TWvfu2BIjhBV7mOVjsyBKzT25dzaYwSxnhqAz9Lh1cgD 2DsV+wkunhh9oGMaIprrSYwzKp3Z8+tZ/vidxqwh9u6dbY1O+QDyRSqXRDRJow8Yp82K EqVmIUnrREsKm/TvnUtHT1d5MUYRXrJNIYjb0QDQOoD8Dul/CEJIuwbb90Zviva7eB4p qjZ3cWY0qqIiblFBiBkjstW0rf+8qz3rI/KBCcjIAdbWp42L/fJqzAjm18gkgR1HIVBV 9o+tM7RRvmaHm5V98wZlsD9QnlW5UjJpQp+xUzYZuLq1sHbsZgdgrHqmZdNWX7VOc5yQ k+Rw== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51CufZ2F/e1GHlSkbaWBWCYk0Dqhwo/CfOeHCJmDywPJoMOb4bXD +n1v7vP3zYUMjp4Qd5MTWpT6v6GcCQsIRkKhWVA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdaeHm7gfoyn2n9+utUIJktuVzCihIZ5/8+X1L5cG1wNnPNrlrf1KsdFnt9aUpqv/A8Mp1xA/wG2JtGVw6O3dSI= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:4401:: with SMTP id r1-v6mr7802729lja.21.1535637088900; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 06:51:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87h8jc2ue4.fsf@mbork.pl> <87sh2w5m56.fsf@yandex.com> In-Reply-To: <87sh2w5m56.fsf@yandex.com> From: Chris Shea Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 09:51:17 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation To: m43cap@yandex.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000301cd50574a75fb8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32578 Cc: mbork@mbork.pl, 32578@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000301cd50574a75fb8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:50 AM Colin Baxter wrote: > >>>>> Marcin Borkowski writes: > > > On 2018-08-29, at 19:29, Chris Shea wrote: > > >> Hello, > >> > >> This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the > >> drag events documentation. Documentation should be informative > >> and inclusive. > > > I'm a bit on the fence about this. On the one hand, I remember > > seeing the joke some time ago and finding it hilarious. On the > > other hand, I remember feeling good about removing other jokes > > from Emacs sources, which were _really_ offensive. This one seems > > to be far, far from offensive anyway, and if anyone feels offended > > by this, they probably well deserve it. Disclosure: I know (and > > often tell myself) jokes about groups of people _I_ belong to > > which are probably much more "offensive" than this one (though > > obviously I may be biased). I can provide a sample on request. > > > I don't see how the relevant portion can be seen as not > > informative. > > > BTW, I am now coauthoring a book on pretty advanced mathematics > > (nonlinear analysis), and we try to put quite a lot of jokes into > > it. Well-placed jokes do not make a book/documentation less > > informative, but more pleasant to read. (Unfortunately, there is > > nothing about "drag events" in the book.) > > > If I were to made a decision, I would probably (a bit reluctantly, > > but still) leave it, so that Emacs does not succumb to the idiocy > > called "political correctness". > > > Best, > > > -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl > > I agree with Marcin's comments and would add that a joke is hardly a > bug. Perhaps the original poster should place the suggestion elsewhere, > maybe emacs.devel? > > Best wishes > To Marcin's points, I didn't bring up offensiveness, and what kinds of jokes you tell among your friends doesn't seem relevant. Would your reasoning be the same if the diff was the other way? Would you be arguing to add this joke in because you deem it inoffensive? That it adds information to the documentation? That the documentation for a text editor is the appropriate place to make the effort to add a joke (a joke which operates merely on the level of "this one word looks like this other word") as a bulwark against "political correctness"? To Colin, I sent this patch to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org because I read the Sending-Patches entry of the Emacs manual as saying that all patches should be sent to that address. I may follow up with emacs-devel later. Yours, --000000000000301cd50574a75fb8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:50 AM Colin Bax= ter <m43cap@yandex.com> wrot= e:
>>>>> Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> writes:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 2018-08-29, at 19:29, Chris Shea <cmshea@gmail.com> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Hello,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming jo= ke from the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> drag events documentation. Documentation should be i= nformative
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> and inclusive.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I'm a bit on the fence about this.=C2=A0 On the one = hand, I remember
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > seeing the joke some time ago and finding it hilarious.= =C2=A0 On the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > other hand, I remember feeling good about removing other= jokes
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > from Emacs sources, which were _really_ offensive.=C2=A0= This one seems
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to be far, far from offensive anyway, and if anyone feel= s offended
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > by this, they probably well deserve it.=C2=A0 Disclosure= : I know (and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > often tell myself) jokes about groups of people _I_ belo= ng to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > which are probably much more "offensive" than = this one (though
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > obviously I may be biased).=C2=A0 I can provide a sample= on request.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I don't see how the relevant portion can be seen as = not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > informative.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > BTW, I am now coauthoring a book on pretty advanced math= ematics
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > (nonlinear analysis), and we try to put quite a lot of j= okes into
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > it.=C2=A0 Well-placed jokes do not make a book/documenta= tion less
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > informative, but more pleasant to read.=C2=A0 (Unfortuna= tely, there is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > nothing about "drag events" in the book.)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > If I were to made a decision, I would probably (a bit re= luctantly,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > but still) leave it, so that Emacs does not succumb to t= he idiocy
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > called "political correctness".

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Best,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl

I agree with Marcin's comments and would add that a joke is hardly a bug. Perhaps the original poster should place the suggestion elsewhere,
maybe emacs.devel?

Best wishes

To Marcin's points, I d= idn't bring up offensiveness, and what kinds of jokes you tell among yo= ur friends doesn't seem relevant. Would your reasoning be the same if t= he diff was the other way? Would you be arguing to add this joke in because= you deem it inoffensive? That it adds information to the documentation? Th= at the documentation for a text editor is the appropriate place to make the= effort to add a joke (a joke which operates merely on the level of "t= his one word looks like this other word") as a bulwark against "p= olitical correctness"?

To Colin, I sent t= his patch to bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org= because I read the Sending-Patches entry of the Emacs manual as saying= that all patches should be sent to that address. I may follow up with emac= s-devel later.

Yours,
--000000000000301cd50574a75fb8-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 30 16:08:19 2018 Received: (at 32578) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2018 20:08:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39452 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvTEp-0001B1-KO for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:08:19 -0400 Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.25]:53723) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvTEo-0001At-FY for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:08:18 -0400 Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B7A21F44; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:08:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; bh=xIF5XRhP9l1Jd32PAnSy6gL88M9cL1kGbbzN58Uo/Fs=; b=SzgCtosr fHRzFVp4o+NWQRe9RpMzuTBApUPSW/HdwqFIloYHM1Pbfe7UDh3BEkTWa1s1edKB Oi34giByxz0vy0mZivYrXJ82bGwSCWRiQpZsC2GMctuWhRe7tE0DIPULOLyMxmSE D6chC1jvD13zpoyfx9zLZ1idhUXVl7bVoLKjfJmc5vuM36zJBalSJoFjKoJH9wd6 jpg4CUVIFydBfZhh2Y0Wv5QkF88SdXJkImQb4nMnBJhUx8ofDgFTa9Zjh95nN/Un QWO2GGxnp7SwVbrFaLgu4TC0u/b0EOoXClYdUvBDT8b3UJNjchEsi3GA6TUG4ddq UiaHGVi45v1jWQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=xIF5XRhP9l1Jd32PAnSy6gL88M9cL 1kGbbzN58Uo/Fs=; b=r1SSacDr+hk2rP/Cxzf4geRBCM3g8rcPIVFixH1tK9coa sRNbhqbOCs8RooEqKSgSaIcr4F24Si8fP9d0F93MjJaBB/op/gLeIN+Un52qyt+n plN3yIECMNxdjNjPT+BVZJcf0VHIMyUxvlcC7yIcdfC+mEz32guFv6AjVkXQ1+25 DeC7CgXDVB+Hj3MsykO7DCoHEEhD4mPcu4wIx8DC8byJ7G8ccJt7f0Q8AMWZZC8e vonL/5AV1PwGyW5gArhqhuqSDvlPpeEY/X4h5wqSefzvCGFnzQ+67uIlwTLuN69/ gfXMKBR/Nnl2N3NocZZsa9e1/oAopbnPMD1MU7G1g== X-ME-Proxy: X-ME-Sender: Received: from fgunbin.playteam.ru (unknown [94.25.218.10]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 677DCE462B; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:08:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Filipp Gunbin To: Chris Shea Subject: Re: bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation In-Reply-To: (Chris Shea's message of "Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:29:33 -0400") References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (darwin) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 23:08:14 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32578 Cc: 32578@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 29/08/2018 13:29 -0400, Chris Shea wrote: > Hello, > > This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the drag events > documentation. Documentation should be informative and inclusive. > > Thanks, If jokes in manuals bother you, then you better not open Gnus manual :-) Why be so strict and not let people put jokes into manuals? We all know what manuals are for, and still very few complain about such things. Filipp From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 30 16:54:33 2018 Received: (at 32578) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2018 20:54:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39473 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvTxY-0004KF-Vd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:54:33 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-f51.google.com ([209.85.167.51]:42594) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvTxX-0004K3-3S for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:54:31 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-f51.google.com with SMTP id z11-v6so8290150lff.9 for <32578@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 13:54:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=t+4yikjG4KoG7dF50cIQufcgNW96yDkcVjQscGkk4+8=; b=ssEsuDviOivqeg2TmLDfpJLMEpR5X6ezUUgTnShLKITURSfwOOFP229S3znHtY1het O2+lZU0esOsIC1tm9sEdMQ3RC/oH9qTOOeaS8NIsEdcoFYE+eQGSkyTkgkL80pvItF9O eqVWkaXhC69Mn35+bQhTJU/9KFj1QB3uq/9M/XZE14TIFbnjKmzbT3pFzG7dIShpFUbh 3zoIlqqIFc5X+fFCZ5Y/7p5m5GlaAL9eoaMpl4k33BOGLlfdHFzV4ZUfw4eBkRv1Zwyb W26pGcok81z7G+yPNGjkEmLwqjpCh49jul6+Nztro3gqYHzECqwLdzEFgmFs9DD0+WrH 9V3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=t+4yikjG4KoG7dF50cIQufcgNW96yDkcVjQscGkk4+8=; b=JMu1pU4n3zszSqjq+hE3nTmw2edZQ0IGrqDnfLHJT9GIsb0cG6Vu4AzmRaXrIhLrES Nyr/BapS6V+bRqR3hbY8XhpIHIxFb3Gqw4rzPU+IYvMSFvssIkeaBojRIuZ3768emskN nv9fDMs58YrCOK3HACxqVcxJ2AVjFo+daaJ0hZRQooHOcCjsjlmjyxF6jOksloHr1J8j ym57fJwak0znl0uw7Y4SF4PG4yD88G2U81fG8vqGJbtgw9gPRHtmTMO+uVaWkXjSYO18 hCVgbTalkhGdfRQ9b4rDeeFBsNQp4Fm0DmtSYKBBGAzqCZmGpirebTasHoncJ9WEYGqG i6vg== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51BusdSdWsnKxIpyV62s48O6N31t75DTvOEGoX8wQ/7kQPvj0D0Q ToXgrOFx608T8khnmGIffP6hGkRO3oftQMKB7W0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZQMTqX03XsA+ISgJdvwPy8Sfo1RUWM5/+7qTmffMkf8pgoQ+4FOViBx09nVOs6+SEPdvGD9YoXWEJL0f0suHs= X-Received: by 2002:a19:14e6:: with SMTP id 99-v6mr8388318lfu.26.1535662464997; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 13:54:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Chris Shea Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:54:11 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation To: fgunbin@fastmail.fm Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b89c300574ad4773" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32578 Cc: 32578@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000b89c300574ad4773 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:08 PM Filipp Gunbin wrote: > On 29/08/2018 13:29 -0400, Chris Shea wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the drag > events > > documentation. Documentation should be informative and inclusive. > > > > Thanks, > > If jokes in manuals bother you, then you better not open Gnus manual :-) > > Why be so strict and not let people put jokes into manuals? We all know > what manuals are for, and still very few complain about such things. > > Filipp > Jokes in manuals do not bother me. Not generally. Good gracious, this isn't even a good joke. What if this patch changed the joke to something better? "A @dfn{drag event} happens every time the user presses a mouse button and then moves the mouse to a different character position before releasing the button. While that should never happen in practice, you may find it necessary to react to such events to remind the user that no true Emacs operator even owns a mouse." All the best, --000000000000b89c300574ad4773 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:08 PM Filipp Gu= nbin <fgunbin@fastmail.fm>= wrote:
On 29/08/2018 13:29 -0400, Chris Shea wrote:

> Hello,
>
> This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the drag e= vents
> documentation. Documentation should be informative and inclusive.
>
> Thanks,

If jokes in manuals bother you, then you better not open Gnus manual :-)
Why be so strict and not let people put jokes into manuals?=C2=A0 We all kn= ow
what manuals are for, and still very few complain about such things.

Filipp

Jokes in manuals do not bother m= e. Not generally.

Good gracious, this isn'= t even a good joke. What if this patch changed the joke to something better= ? "A @dfn{drag event} happens every time the user presses a mouse butt= on and then moves the mouse to a different character position before releas= ing the button. While that should never happen in practice, you may find it= necessary to react to such events to remind the user that no true Emacs op= erator even owns a mouse."

All the best,<= br>
--000000000000b89c300574ad4773-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 30 19:39:37 2018 Received: (at 32578) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2018 23:39:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39569 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvWXF-0008JN-01 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 19:39:37 -0400 Received: from pop.dreamhost.com ([64.90.62.162]:53612 helo=pdx1-sub0-mail-a24.g.dreamhost.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvWX6-0008J2-0i for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 19:39:26 -0400 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC4FC7F312; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:39:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=linkov.net; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :content-type; s=linkov.net; bh=2dQKilhNyr4hYwaIKm4YwbyNaJw=; b= IfzYoKTPVJD/eCVYLXFTqao9Re1E/I9EsDJfbwNb7wR7dVjcyxXJVNpk6XUPCzBu NMapZnXwN8Ik3KaCpjwY9CcwJoWKV5EYAt+vs+5rwac/Biz31/xV0GdGIXB5K4x4 V+eX3547X8xan5mwAuHvbXq8Y46py1VrcTOyNbpHT2A= Received: from localhost.linkov.net (m91-129-99-146.cust.tele2.ee [91.129.99.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jurta@jurta.org) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 82BD57F2EA; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:39:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Juri Linkov To: Chris Shea Subject: Re: bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation Organization: LINKOV.NET References: Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 01:57:01 +0300 In-Reply-To: (Chris Shea's message of "Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:54:11 -0400") Message-ID: <87wos71n0i.fsf@mail.linkov.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32578 Cc: 32578@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > Good gracious, this isn't even a good joke. What if this patch changed the > joke to something better? "A @dfn{drag event} happens every time the user > presses a mouse button and then moves the mouse to a different character > position before releasing the button. While that should never happen in > practice, you may find it necessary to react to such events to remind the > user that no true Emacs operator even owns a mouse." Reminds me an illustration in an old book depicting a terminal with an attached mouse and titled "workstation of a mouse operator" where a mouse operator implied a profession :-) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 30 21:23:33 2018 Received: (at 32578) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2018 01:23:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39608 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvY9t-0002Vv-MW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:23:33 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:60281) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvY9s-0002Vi-Gh for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:23:32 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fvY9m-0002Xq-N2 for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:23:27 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:34639) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fvY9k-0002VM-I3; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:23:24 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fvY9k-000567-AL; Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:23:24 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Chris Shea In-Reply-To: (message from Chris Shea on Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:29:33 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation References: Message-Id: Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:23:24 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32578 Cc: 32578@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] We will keep that joke, because there is nothing wrong with it. The joke is not unwelcoming to anyone, and does not exclude anyone. In the GNU Project, we appreciate the occasional joke, and we do not aim for Victorian prudery. Happy hacking. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Aug 31 02:09:28 2018 Received: (at 32578) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2018 06:09:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39678 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvcca-0005Tg-7k for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 02:09:28 -0400 Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([195.110.48.8]:54524) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fvccY-0005TX-1o for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 02:09:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FA1E6559; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 08:09:23 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.mojserwer.eu Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mojserwer.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dw3nXXDwnR9P; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 08:09:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (188.47.48.111.ipv4.supernova.orange.pl [188.47.48.111]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0A3EFE6530; Fri, 31 Aug 2018 08:09:18 +0200 (CEST) References: <87h8jc2ue4.fsf@mbork.pl> <87sh2w5m56.fsf@yandex.com> User-agent: mu4e 1.1.0; emacs 27.0.50 From: Marcin Borkowski To: Chris Shea Subject: Re: bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation In-reply-to: Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 08:08:24 +0200 Message-ID: <87ftyvjcfb.fsf@mbork.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32578 Cc: m43cap@yandex.com, 32578@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 2018-08-30, at 15:51, Chris Shea wrote: > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:50 AM Colin Baxter wrote: > >> >>>>> Marcin Borkowski writes: >> >> > On 2018-08-29, at 19:29, Chris Shea wrote: >> >> >> Hello, >> >> >> >> This patch removes an unnecessary and unwelcoming joke from the >> >> drag events documentation. Documentation should be informative >> >> and inclusive. >> >> > I'm a bit on the fence about this. On the one hand, I remember >> > seeing the joke some time ago and finding it hilarious. On the >> > other hand, I remember feeling good about removing other jokes >> > from Emacs sources, which were _really_ offensive. This one seems >> > to be far, far from offensive anyway, and if anyone feels offended >> > by this, they probably well deserve it. Disclosure: I know (and >> > often tell myself) jokes about groups of people _I_ belong to >> > which are probably much more "offensive" than this one (though >> > obviously I may be biased). I can provide a sample on request. >> >> > I don't see how the relevant portion can be seen as not >> > informative. >> >> > BTW, I am now coauthoring a book on pretty advanced mathematics >> > (nonlinear analysis), and we try to put quite a lot of jokes into >> > it. Well-placed jokes do not make a book/documentation less >> > informative, but more pleasant to read. (Unfortunately, there is >> > nothing about "drag events" in the book.) >> >> > If I were to made a decision, I would probably (a bit reluctantly, >> > but still) leave it, so that Emacs does not succumb to the idiocy >> > called "political correctness". >> >> > Best, >> >> > -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl >> >> I agree with Marcin's comments and would add that a joke is hardly a >> bug. Perhaps the original poster should place the suggestion elsewhere, >> maybe emacs.devel? >> >> Best wishes >> > > To Marcin's points, I didn't bring up offensiveness, and what kinds of "Unwelcoming" seemed to me a softer version of "offensive". Sorry if I'm mistaken, I'm not a native English speaker. > jokes you tell among your friends doesn't seem relevant. Would your Quite the opposite: if I'm not bothered by this joke, and I'm bothered by similarly offensive/unwelcoming jokes about me and/or groups of people I belong to, someone could argue that I have double standards. Such an argument need not be correct in general, but it might make people ignore my email. > reasoning be the same if the diff was the other way? Would you be arguing > to add this joke in because you deem it inoffensive? That it adds > information to the documentation? That the documentation for a text editor > is the appropriate place to make the effort to add a joke (a joke which > operates merely on the level of "this one word looks like this other word") > as a bulwark against "political correctness"? As I mentioned, I'm coauthoring a "serious" book on "serious" mathematics. Many a commit exists for the purpose of adding jokes (though not ones about drag events), pop culture references etc. Though it does not add _information_, it adds _value_. And I don't see how docs for a text editor might be inappropriate place for jokes/puns (unless they make the docs difficult to understand for a non-native ENglish speaker, but this is another story). Even if the reason was not "as a bulwark against 'political correctness'" (which would strengthen the argument in my book), I still think the effort would be worth it. Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 01 09:57:28 2018 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2018 13:57:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41993 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fw6P2-00020f-Ds for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 09:57:28 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:57829) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fw6P0-00020R-Kc for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 09:57:26 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fw6Op-0008OQ-Qu for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 09:57:20 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:59655) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fw6Op-0008OL-Mf; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 09:57:15 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4180 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fw6Oj-0004b5-Hz; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 09:57:09 -0400 Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2018 16:56:57 +0300 Message-Id: <83r2id1fti.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: rms@gnu.org In-reply-to: (message from Richard Stallman on Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:23:24 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control Cc: cmshea@gmail.com, 32578-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) tags 32578 wontfix thanks > From: Richard Stallman > Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:23:24 -0400 > Cc: 32578@debbugs.gnu.org > > We will keep that joke, because there is nothing wrong with it. The > joke is not unwelcoming to anyone, and does not exclude anyone. In > the GNU Project, we appreciate the occasional joke, and we do not aim > for Victorian prudery. > > Happy hacking. By popular demand, I'm closing this bug as "wontfix". Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 01 23:14:31 2018 Received: (at 32578) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2018 03:14:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42277 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fwIqN-0008TT-LA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 23:14:31 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:43805) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fwIqM-0008TE-Qm for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 23:14:31 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwIqC-000791-RA for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 23:14:25 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:44151) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwIpj-0006Yb-R5; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 23:13:51 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fwIpj-0003q1-M3; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 23:13:51 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Marcin Borkowski In-Reply-To: <87ftyvjcfb.fsf@mbork.pl> (message from Marcin Borkowski on Fri, 31 Aug 2018 08:08:24 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation References: <87h8jc2ue4.fsf@mbork.pl> <87sh2w5m56.fsf@yandex.com> <87ftyvjcfb.fsf@mbork.pl> Message-Id: Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2018 23:13:51 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32578 Cc: cmshea@gmail.com, m43cap@yandex.com, 32578@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] It is pertinent that the "drag events" joke does not speak negatively about any group of people. Rationally speaking, it is not offensive to anyone. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 01 23:50:08 2018 Received: (at 32578) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Sep 2018 03:50:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42289 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fwJOp-0000wA-RV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 23:50:08 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-f41.google.com ([209.85.167.41]:34371) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fwJOm-0000vT-16 for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 23:50:06 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-f41.google.com with SMTP id c29-v6so6601677lfj.1 for <32578@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 20:50:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=E45tdN4K9/1QCccFL7F6SV+3aGuL3Nq0hKrIuBtxXEk=; b=QpC0NJ+OUKstg9tHzBVmKl4AepodYtPq10xkf51RUBE4cGgpAn6co5sDbBLKLcbYmI 1ABUlSe8ve/p2mWycBG/KoU8DwuH8lW6m9rbb5xSnITr5qR0GkUp1AsFEhYBsbq4Fc5C ki7dZ67LAuAnclFf70kypeO6DpjeNhT7p2P0JQUWJFFHUsZiEmWmEiBEIxjjrDpNFLnI NnanXjCV5y5zxArk4YsNIXm1U0EAH6dJH7JM0UxJ9h2az7CRAWs+8BqA01pR5/goRktG hExECRfYm5Rs4AxpqgzZ12PfUmkp+caB1YezG2fwS0dr/jGGOOGK0nxbAjo267IvKNM9 lUgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=E45tdN4K9/1QCccFL7F6SV+3aGuL3Nq0hKrIuBtxXEk=; b=kCsbmi6DOUwhac7ctElrtZW8U6zGqGUkvzpU42P46+XbZT8+IVx/wlY0AMsmuD56aH PzqKiwvJlnfDi13xmD7hpTLFXBg75gZbRuo+ZYHM529X33YhRIMEvN1+QONpSclset7J kHtA8HXSvT2v7iFQ24FppOqCu+m6lhnqh+QHbqNDGQkLkLZjPmWkkRhk1f+OQj2tqr87 ezWLBmsemz/xf9hrglLA7kaLObSv1zQDBp4xNWvIGV+CSZGwAC1ukZSIh+KbI7mb+msC aMYJThlJmWZwVS8XeHggEACkZJFzKrinuOJqZySPGp62je6+FTYrGYPu1ohPWQGOQF7i WTbg== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51BL3Ft5yYap5/sENwvk4C2vVFcGVmanwHs3ADjs7t3UgecmdFk5 +dmaQ/FonI00VS7vvcGI0lpjpTo173+PzFLy2eY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdbmZqzYW8M2kSTm5d9isjj1BqGa9s5lTPmG2rFJnlZILsJBeg5LW9KY6Lto81awptXtLcO1imAlQhVOOyqAhS4= X-Received: by 2002:a19:4c41:: with SMTP id z62-v6mr10540111lfa.127.1535860197863; Sat, 01 Sep 2018 20:49:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87h8jc2ue4.fsf@mbork.pl> <87sh2w5m56.fsf@yandex.com> <87ftyvjcfb.fsf@mbork.pl> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Shea Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 23:49:45 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000084b6a50574db51f2" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32578 Cc: m43cap@yandex.com, Marcin Borkowski , 32578@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --00000000000084b6a50574db51f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Sep 1, 2018, 11:14 PM Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > It is pertinent that the "drag events" joke does not speak negatively > about any group of people. Rationally speaking, it is not offensive > to anyone. > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > Oh boy. I never said anything about the joke being offensive. But I blame myself for not foreseeing this reaction, since this is the unwelcome I was talking about. This joke's presence in the official documentation communicates (accurately, as this whole exchange has demonstrated) that Emacs is created by people who think that a reference to drag is politically incorrect (and somehow rightfully so) and risqu=C3=A9 (= else why bring up Victorian prudishness). And that suggests a certain kind of attitude that not everyone has the patience to deal with. I can see that the line is doing what it intends, so I accept the wontfix. With the bond that unites all living things, > --00000000000084b6a50574db51f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Sep 1, 2018, 11:14 PM R= ichard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrot= e:
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents re= ading my email: please consider=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]<= br>
It is pertinent that the "drag events" joke does not speak negati= vely
about any group of people.=C2=A0 Rationally speaking, it is not offensive to anyone.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Oh boy. I never said anything about the jok= e being offensive.

But I blame myself for not fore= seeing this reaction, since this is the unwelcome I was talking about. This= joke's presence in the official documentation communicates (accurately= , as this whole exchange has demonstrated) that Emacs is created by people = who think that a reference to drag is politically incorrect (and somehow ri= ghtfully so) and risqu=C3=A9 (else why bring up Victorian prudishness). And= that suggests a certain kind of attitude that not everyone has the patienc= e to deal with.

I can see that the line is doing w= hat it intends, so I accept the wontfix.

With the = bond that unites all living things,
--00000000000084b6a50574db51f2-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 03 02:27:06 2018 Received: (at 32578) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Sep 2018 06:27:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43540 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fwiKI-0006pP-BF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 03 Sep 2018 02:27:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:54312) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fwiKG-0006ou-Eq for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 03 Sep 2018 02:27:04 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwiKA-0002Bg-3d for 32578@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 03 Sep 2018 02:26:58 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:36464) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwiK8-0002AK-4Y; Mon, 03 Sep 2018 02:26:56 -0400 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fwiK7-0006wT-Td; Mon, 03 Sep 2018 02:26:55 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Chris Shea In-Reply-To: (message from Chris Shea on Sat, 1 Sep 2018 23:49:45 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#32578: Remove "joke" from drag events documentation References: <87h8jc2ue4.fsf@mbork.pl> <87sh2w5m56.fsf@yandex.com> <87ftyvjcfb.fsf@mbork.pl> Message-Id: Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2018 02:26:55 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32578 Cc: m43cap@yandex.com, mbork@mbork.pl, 32578@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > demonstrated) that Emacs is created by people who think that a reference to > drag is politically incorrect (and somehow rightfully so) and risqué (else > why bring up Victorian prudishness). And that suggests a certain kind of > attitude that not everyone has the patience to deal with. I think you've extrapolated; I think that attributes to me some ideas that I do not agree with. I can't be sure, because can't tell clearly what ideas it does attribute to me. I can't even tell which sort of attitude you are attributing to us, only that it is one that you disapprove of. If you would like to explain to me what you attributed to me, I would like to understand. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) From unknown Sun Jun 22 11:33:48 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2018 11:24:06 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator