From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 06 19:28:05 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Jul 2018 23:28:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48907 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fba8z-0005aV-1g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 19:28:05 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:32915) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fba8w-0005Zw-Ox for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 19:28:03 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fba8q-0000DC-DN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 19:27:57 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:47075) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fba8q-0000D8-AC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 19:27:56 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52118) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fba8p-0001h1-5w for bug-automake@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 19:27:56 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fba8m-0000Bi-1o for bug-automake@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 19:27:55 -0400 Received: from freefriends.org ([96.88.95.60]:47536) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fba8l-0000BK-R4 for bug-automake@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 19:27:51 -0400 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org Received: from freefriends.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefriends.org (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id w66NRn0e008378; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 17:27:49 -0600 Received: (from nobody@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.14.9/8.14.9/submit) id w66NRmKq008377; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 23:27:48 GMT Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 23:27:48 GMT Message-Id: <201807062327.w66NRmKq008377@freefriends.org> X-Authentication-Warning: frenzy.freefriends.org: nobody set sender to karl@freefriends.org using -f From: Karl Berry To: bug-automake@gnu.org Subject: maintainer-clean and removing configure/Makefile.in/etc. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Hi - the automake manual has (for many years) said: @code{maintainer-clean} should not delete anything that needs to exist in order to run @samp{./configure && make}. @end itemize We recommend that you follow this same set of heuristics in your @file{Makefile.am}. That heuristic made sense when Francois formulated it decades ago. But nowadays, especially since autoreconf exists, it does not seem unreasonable to me to want to delete Makefile.in, configure, etc. It is just as easy to run autoreconf (or equivalent) as configure&&make, and it feels nice to have such dependent files gone from the source tree, especially when working on setting up a package with autotools. I certainly don't suggest changing any behavior, but perhaps the manual could mention that it could be done via maintainer-clean-local or MAINTAINERCLEANFILES, e.g.: MAINTAINERCLEANFILES = aclocal.m4 config.h.in configure \ Makefile Makefile.in */Makefile */Makefile.in Some maintainers might prefer to also remove build-aux or more; personally that's one step too much for me. All the more reason not to change any code :). Just an idea ... --best, karl. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 06 20:28:31 2018 Received: (at 32074) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jul 2018 00:28:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48935 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fbb5T-0007HK-2x for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 20:28:31 -0400 Received: from mail-pl0-f49.google.com ([209.85.160.49]:39196) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fbb5Q-0007H6-NG for 32074@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 20:28:29 -0400 Received: by mail-pl0-f49.google.com with SMTP id s24-v6so3533214plq.6 for <32074@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 17:28:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jackkelly-name.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=m8LPsF22B7rSsblhKkVLfSy+oeHnPZ7yZPaKsXWYsfQ=; b=B9e4jTrm0rc5q4Rre5mWQS1UnWXSErQZPRmubGRi/1IY+TuZWro/CGkwt4UXJh1Zpd MO6cTtaIB/Z3GcKqllpGQrQXjabYXL/C/aq9kyXgo2xWW5QxKowBkzQ1Qflwc77G5sRw aN2JjpMEGoPzDQ7fxRAY8t9jfvZP20uoTYQVBEcEwesf7i4w+bns1Ar73zX7PukTiP5c kt66mWkP0QlzrzxOIFLBLbl4fe2FXbM1pS+JTlcOBLs5tBbOnuioF03ti5csV9F4b1ZR gCCasaDdzsqvTHkzXgvkVufa4cJrQ2ndbNDh+rtTLPY2CrKK//MbADbsovuyX3mNjhdD XSTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=m8LPsF22B7rSsblhKkVLfSy+oeHnPZ7yZPaKsXWYsfQ=; b=fvzvKetEYz68xXF3i6eoTDEaaN/REYrZWOWtMtHMWTG51WEX/c8vvhAG/yC056++hZ lzce51tDQOsTzYP6qyUb9LLzfqdQTfaJ2KufWvrNtl27knSgckJxCcBSRgiNdUi/84fl oJFn52wgX5sOCtKLdAtfDBRlcv486rcGxSwbQ5boUH4wuiby28d19FtKymzB2xiMF+9i K6fLcB+aEfPMeReD0xpuzybX4lJ5YORSh5qUVyKuzUQ68VF4CBVy2BdVM7D9QITBMjHB gPfUFWRYzlMNXMxaa+VN6nThuHQBhVatobOs54KdZ0Br1eeDL/GzEQmiJVMN2qwW3njN mZ5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2K3/CySfa5FSUgQRZU9JMS109sfu8X+LpjZGtbBo81AsT3HiFQ zAyOA/felaAzQtSyAYYT3jFw7JAO X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpevjm/g20Xz3HzoVd2/sDV9VlbMSwzSs4Dqppfw1GCK3X7axtv+5rjoqgrzxwmK9zO/0nH4tg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:3081:: with SMTP id v1-v6mr12413346plb.266.1530923302465; Fri, 06 Jul 2018 17:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyberdwarf ([104.238.51.131]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f6-v6sm13580463pgp.13.2018.07.06.17.28.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Jul 2018 17:28:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Jack Kelly To: Karl Berry Subject: Re: bug#32074: maintainer-clean and removing configure/Makefile.in/etc. References: <201807062327.w66NRmKq008377@freefriends.org> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 10:28:15 +1000 In-Reply-To: <201807062327.w66NRmKq008377@freefriends.org> (Karl Berry's message of "Fri, 6 Jul 2018 23:27:48 GMT") Message-ID: <87muv3ubxc.fsf@jackkelly.name> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32074 Cc: 32074@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Karl Berry writes: > [snip automake manual blockquote] > > But nowadays, especially since autoreconf exists, it does not seem > unreasonable to me to want to delete Makefile.in, configure, etc. It > is just as easy to run autoreconf (or equivalent) as configure&&make, > and it feels nice to have such dependent files gone from the source > tree, especially when working on setting up a package with autotools. > > I certainly don't suggest changing any behavior, but perhaps the manual > could mention that it could be done via maintainer-clean-local or > MAINTAINERCLEANFILES, e.g.: > > MAINTAINERCLEANFILES = aclocal.m4 config.h.in configure \ > Makefile Makefile.in */Makefile */Makefile.in > > Some maintainers might prefer to also remove build-aux or more... It is certainly valuable to test that you can bootstrap your package from autoreconf up, but I don't think `make maintainer-clean' is the best place to do that. The `git-clean' command removes untracked files from the worktree, and I'm sure other VCSes let you do similar things. Maybe the manual could point to those commands? -- Jack From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 07 05:54:02 2018 Received: (at 32074) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jul 2018 09:54:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49106 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fbjuk-0005E5-B1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 05:54:02 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42168) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fbjuj-0005DZ-F3 for 32074@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 05:54:01 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fbjub-00015A-0e for 32074@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 05:53:56 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:50778) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fbjua-000154-Sy; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 05:53:52 -0400 Received: from 85.63.10.109.rev.sfr.net ([109.10.63.85]:42324 helo=token) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fbjuY-0003Q2-LA; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 05:53:51 -0400 From: Mathieu Lirzin To: Karl Berry Subject: Re: bug#32074: maintainer-clean and removing configure/Makefile.in/etc. References: <201807062327.w66NRmKq008377@freefriends.org> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 11:53:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: <201807062327.w66NRmKq008377@freefriends.org> (Karl Berry's message of "Fri, 6 Jul 2018 23:27:48 GMT") Message-ID: <87fu0vqslv.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32074 Cc: 32074@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) Hello Karl, Karl Berry writes: > Hi - the automake manual has (for many years) said: > > @code{maintainer-clean} should not delete anything that needs to exist > in order to run @samp{./configure && make}. > @end itemize > > We recommend that you follow this same set of heuristics in your > @file{Makefile.am}. > > That heuristic made sense when Francois formulated it decades ago. But > nowadays, especially since autoreconf exists, it does not seem > unreasonable to me to want to delete Makefile.in, configure, etc. It is > just as easy to run autoreconf (or equivalent) as configure&&make, and > it feels nice to have such dependent files gone from the source tree, > especially when working on setting up a package with autotools. What is not clear to me is the reasoning of that heuristic. You seems to suggest that it has been introduced to avoid having to know the order in which autoconf, aclocal, automake, ... has to be run. Have you any reference regarding that? I would guess that the reason is more that this command might be run from a tarball and that if the package builder doesn't know that Autotools is now needed as a dependency, that person is left without any instruction regarding what to do. > I certainly don't suggest changing any behavior, but perhaps the manual > could mention that it could be done via maintainer-clean-local or > MAINTAINERCLEANFILES, e.g.: > > MAINTAINERCLEANFILES = aclocal.m4 config.h.in configure \ > Makefile Makefile.in */Makefile */Makefile.in > > Some maintainers might prefer to also remove build-aux or more; personally > that's one step too much for me. All the more reason not to change any > code :). Can you explain why this step would be too much for you? Thanks. -- Mathieu Lirzin GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761 070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 07 06:09:06 2018 Received: (at 32074) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jul 2018 10:09:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49115 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fbk9K-0005Za-2S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 06:09:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:45345) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fbk9G-0005Z0-3Y for 32074@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 06:09:02 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fbk97-0001lD-P0 for 32074@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 06:08:56 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:50986) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fbk97-0001l2-Kz; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 06:08:53 -0400 Received: from 85.63.10.109.rev.sfr.net ([109.10.63.85]:42384 helo=token) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fbk97-00026v-6t; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 06:08:53 -0400 From: Mathieu Lirzin To: Jack Kelly Subject: Re: bug#32074: maintainer-clean and removing configure/Makefile.in/etc. References: <201807062327.w66NRmKq008377@freefriends.org> <87muv3ubxc.fsf@jackkelly.name> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:08:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87muv3ubxc.fsf@jackkelly.name> (Jack Kelly's message of "Sat, 07 Jul 2018 10:28:15 +1000") Message-ID: <87bmbjqrws.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32074 Cc: 32074@debbugs.gnu.org, Karl Berry X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) Hello Jack, Jack Kelly writes: > Karl Berry writes: > >> [snip automake manual blockquote] >> >> But nowadays, especially since autoreconf exists, it does not seem >> unreasonable to me to want to delete Makefile.in, configure, etc. It >> is just as easy to run autoreconf (or equivalent) as configure&&make, >> and it feels nice to have such dependent files gone from the source >> tree, especially when working on setting up a package with autotools. >> >> I certainly don't suggest changing any behavior, but perhaps the manual >> could mention that it could be done via maintainer-clean-local or >> MAINTAINERCLEANFILES, e.g.: >> >> MAINTAINERCLEANFILES = aclocal.m4 config.h.in configure \ >> Makefile Makefile.in */Makefile */Makefile.in >> >> Some maintainers might prefer to also remove build-aux or more... > > It is certainly valuable to test that you can bootstrap your package > from autoreconf up, but I don't think `make maintainer-clean' is the > best place to do that. The `git-clean' command removes untracked files > from the worktree, and I'm sure other VCSes let you do similar > things. Maybe the manual could point to those commands? This works only when files generated by Autotools are not commited to VCS. Having said that, I agree this is a general good practice that ought to be documented in Automake's manual. Have you any suggestion regarding the location and wording? Thanks. [1] https://www.gnu.org/software/automake/faq/gnulib.html#VCS-Issues -- Mathieu Lirzin GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761 070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 07 17:40:23 2018 Received: (at 32074) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jul 2018 21:40:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50499 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fbuwJ-0007KR-JI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 17:40:23 -0400 Received: from freefriends.org ([96.88.95.60]:55844) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fbuwH-0007KJ-Po for 32074@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 17:40:22 -0400 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org Received: from freefriends.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefriends.org (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id w67LeKUJ002870; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 15:40:20 -0600 Received: (from nobody@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.14.9/8.14.9/submit) id w67LeKfi002869; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 21:40:20 GMT Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 21:40:20 GMT Message-Id: <201807072140.w67LeKfi002869@freefriends.org> X-Authentication-Warning: frenzy.freefriends.org: nobody set sender to karl@freefriends.org using -f From: Karl Berry To: mthl@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#32074: maintainer-clean and removing configure/Makefile.in/etc. In-Reply-To: <87fu0vqslv.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32074 Cc: 32074@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Hi Mathieu, Thanks for the quick reply. What is not clear to me is the reasoning of that heuristic. You seems to suggest that it has been introduced to avoid having to know the order in which autoconf, aclocal, automake, ... has to be run. Have you any reference regarding that? I've been looking through my old mail about this. I can't reconstruct the whole trail, but this message from rms to me seems to be the crux of the "don't delete configure" special case (this is the whole message and I have no other direct context, but still). Date: Sat, 19 Sep 92 23:42:28 -0400 From: rms@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Richard Stallman) To: karl@cs.umb.edu Subject: realclean: rm configure You can't reconstruct configure with the makefile if there is no configure. That was true in 1992 (no autoreconf :), but is routinely not true today. Francois, Tom Tromey, Akim Demaille, Jim Meyering, I, and others were going through many iterations of what should be deleted in which target in those years. I can't pin down the exact source of that heuristic though. I would guess that the reason is more that this command might be run from a tarball I don't see why that's an issue. If an installer runs maintainer-clean after unpacking a tarball, they are responsible for their own actions. That's why the target is named *maintainer*-clean :). https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Standard-Targets.html talks about this in explicit detail. (It also implies that Makefile.in files should be deleted, by the way. Hmm.) and that if the package builder doesn't know that Autotools is now needed as a dependency, that person is left without any instruction There are always instructions ... Can you explain why this step would be too much for you? Because I might (and usually do) have newer versions of the common files than what missing would copy (ie, updated since the last Automake release). Regardless, if you want to put build-aux (or whatever) into the example in the manual, I don't object. Best, Karl From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 07 18:30:13 2018 Received: (at 32074) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jul 2018 22:30:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50522 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fbviX-0008V7-J9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 18:30:13 -0400 Received: from mail-pf0-f173.google.com ([209.85.192.173]:34444) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fbviU-0008U4-Gt for 32074@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 18:30:11 -0400 Received: by mail-pf0-f173.google.com with SMTP id e10-v6so11052732pfn.1 for <32074@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 15:30:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jackkelly-name.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=aGpxMT4rmKxdpm3LK2BW4BevelEWlZC3szoSP/e3flg=; b=XoMmkYhvz2lAIUgtSALg69J0S3kAvomPYQRFZdNeKO2AnpVsUWYaoek2BVSX4afSab FbJTzr+OB1fdG5GmM6DUkGjwmXVLkNOAeMn6+YG5z3p6wAttJ+gUsdkgshG2XNkq9aPp 0n3DDtyIkyZvJ3Y8dJVbNUu2h42Qm778UXeH6kuBN7f9ZpwgNDj1vLhYrZS/8XKkJl/k 7aQJBkDfkof06BH2Qxp8BfCgFYRIPL7bF9VuRFoYVqiBT93vILzgFi4OfgOn8DxxktMa pZ9wmwW3YUjIHib4wE8AIMBhpfDHMK0d0oJYh+GiXFHVa0Jo/gK5fbDpw4gbA2jQb26K DGRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=aGpxMT4rmKxdpm3LK2BW4BevelEWlZC3szoSP/e3flg=; b=s0LtC81D+LISc9i7/tVKSj6UlndEBnS6KzYzlfAbUVXxP2zV7GppDr33STezR47Hzf 7VTK+3H26R5xPiohQ2Iw5C5bJgbVjXMRvh0JQO+ReqcdhLevk//QCPTS5DYj2o2cs+T+ dN3DvWwQazN5nWZKtC1ch0PSIzw81RjQnx+zcf7lqVnjnXlZ7CVAd9rIVSVuwe4f//Sk hw0ts23S17sI45unPAdkynGR06xVS8RtMZQFwWOiCVSKgrW+6woaBhd1ZS/I3WLw0Nap DtNKaMw3sdCcDm9I0izXxv464QSqsMo/oH8ry6L3nCq9sVp88OaNoDWmNPlsn3iOK2Fg vcaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0v5mIk/JxF4/ajNBPJK5lCT9WHP1gevF992UFYPxAcgZYct0Vl Gl/8EiIICA45BC4HMJ2SrqvIDFRY X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpc1sfrMWi6JW3F98xwzD/HTQJoZpeF7F1uX/96k+ic+wKhvKg5ztaP7CvOejQyX/Mv5Q/1QNQ== X-Received: by 2002:a65:6292:: with SMTP id f18-v6mr9216935pgv.85.1531002604432; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 15:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyberdwarf ([104.238.51.131]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p20-v6sm17591470pff.90.2018.07.07.15.30.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 07 Jul 2018 15:30:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Jack Kelly To: Mathieu Lirzin Subject: Re: bug#32074: maintainer-clean and removing configure/Makefile.in/etc. References: <201807062327.w66NRmKq008377@freefriends.org> <87muv3ubxc.fsf@jackkelly.name> <87bmbjqrws.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 08:29:57 +1000 In-Reply-To: <87bmbjqrws.fsf@gnu.org> (Mathieu Lirzin's message of "Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:08:51 +0200") Message-ID: <87va9qsmqi.fsf@jackkelly.name> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32074 Cc: 32074@debbugs.gnu.org, Karl Berry X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Mathieu Lirzin writes: > Jack Kelly writes: > >> It is certainly valuable to test that you can bootstrap your package >> from autoreconf up, but I don't think `make maintainer-clean' is the >> best place to do that. The `git-clean' command removes untracked files >> from the worktree, and I'm sure other VCSes let you do similar >> things. Maybe the manual could point to those commands? > > This works only when files generated by Autotools are not commited to > VCS. Having said that, I agree this is a general good practice that > ought to be documented in Automake's manual. Have you any suggestion > regarding the location and wording? Possibly under the "What Gets Cleaned" section of the manual? -- Jack From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 07 18:30:49 2018 Received: (at 32074) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Jul 2018 22:30:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50528 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fbvj5-0008W6-2t for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 18:30:49 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:59296) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fbvj3-0008Vn-NR for 32074@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 18:30:46 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fbviu-000488-Eu for 32074@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 18:30:40 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_05 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:58497) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fbviu-000482-Af; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 18:30:36 -0400 Received: from 85.63.10.109.rev.sfr.net ([109.10.63.85]:54962 helo=token) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fbvit-0000mS-Ti; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 18:30:36 -0400 From: Mathieu Lirzin To: Karl Berry Subject: Re: bug#32074: maintainer-clean and removing configure/Makefile.in/etc. References: <201807072140.w67LeKfi002869@freefriends.org> Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 00:30:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: <201807072140.w67LeKfi002869@freefriends.org> (Karl Berry's message of "Sat, 7 Jul 2018 21:40:20 GMT") Message-ID: <87h8laptkm.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32074 Cc: 32074@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) Karl Berry writes: > What is not clear to me is the reasoning of that heuristic. You seems > to suggest that it has been introduced to avoid having to know the or= der > in which autoconf, aclocal, automake, ... has to be run. Have you any > reference regarding that? > > I've been looking through my old mail about this. I can't reconstruct > the whole trail, but this message from rms to me seems to be the crux of > the "don't delete configure" special case (this is the whole message and > I have no other direct context, but still). > > Date: Sat, 19 Sep 92 23:42:28 -0400 > From: rms@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Richard Stallman) > To: karl@cs.umb.edu > Subject: realclean: rm configure > > You can't reconstruct configure with the makefile > if there is no configure. > > That was true in 1992 (no autoreconf :), but is routinely not true > today. > > Francois, Tom Tromey, Akim Demaille, Jim Meyering, I, and others were > going through many iterations of what should be deleted in which target > in those years. I can't pin down the exact source of that heuristic > though. Thanks for the context. > I would guess that the reason is more that this command might be run > from a tarball=20 > > I don't see why that's an issue. If an installer runs maintainer-clean > after unpacking a tarball, they are responsible for their own actions. > That's why the target is named *maintainer*-clean :). >=20=20=20=20=20 > https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Standard-Targets.html > talks about this in explicit detail. (It also implies that Makefile.in > files should be deleted, by the way. Hmm.) =E2=80=9CMore generally, =E2=80=98make maintainer-clean=E2=80=99 should not= delete anything that needs to exist in order to run configure and then begin to build the program=E2=80=9D This seems to imply that Makefile.in should be kept, no? > and that if the package builder doesn't know that Autotools is now > needed as a dependency, that person is left without any instruction > > There are always instructions ... What I meant is that =E2=80=98./configure=E2=80=99 output can't help that u= se with an helpful error anymore. But as you pointed above this is the user responsability. > Can you explain why this step would be too much for you? > > Because I might (and usually do) have newer versions of the common files > than what missing would copy (ie, updated since the last Automake > release). Regardless, if you want to put build-aux (or whatever) into > the example in the manual, I don't object. Makes sense. I just wanted to understand. :-) I think Automake shouldn't suggest something that is explicitly discouraged by the GCS. After reading the GCS link you gave, the suggestion of adding =E2=80=9Cconfigure=E2=80=9D and other files to MAINTAI= NERCLEANFILES seems to contradict with it. I am personnaly not against your suggestion as long as it matches the GCS recommandation. So I would suggest discussing it on or to see if others agree that GCS is outdated in that regard before modifying the Automake manual. WDYT? --=20 Mathieu Lirzin GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761 070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jul 08 17:16:32 2018 Received: (at 32074) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2018 21:16:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51498 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fcH2l-0000l2-RK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 17:16:32 -0400 Received: from freefriends.org ([96.88.95.60]:47672) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fcH2k-0000ks-3a for 32074@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 17:16:30 -0400 X-Envelope-From: karl@freefriends.org Received: from freefriends.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freefriends.org (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id w68LGTTI004661; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 15:16:29 -0600 Received: (from nobody@localhost) by freefriends.org (8.14.9/8.14.9/submit) id w68LGTiW004660; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 21:16:29 GMT Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 21:16:29 GMT Message-Id: <201807082116.w68LGTiW004660@freefriends.org> X-Authentication-Warning: frenzy.freefriends.org: nobody set sender to karl@freefriends.org using -f From: Karl Berry To: mthl@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#32074: maintainer-clean and removing configure/Makefile.in/etc. In-Reply-To: <87h8laptkm.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32074 Cc: 32074@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) I think Automake shouldn't suggest something that is explicitly discouraged by the GCS. Good point. I agree. I would suggest discussing it on ... Perfectly reasonable, but I'm just too old to have the stomach for those discussions any more :(. Hardly the most crucial suggestion in the world, fine for it to be relegated to the dustheap of history :). --all the best, karl From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jul 08 17:35:19 2018 Received: (at 32074) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2018 21:35:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51505 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fcHKx-0001CF-Ew for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 17:35:19 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:46958) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fcHKw-0001C2-Ee for 32074@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 17:35:18 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fcHKn-0007YH-7N for 32074@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 17:35:13 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:43653) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fcHKn-0007Y3-3V; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 17:35:09 -0400 Received: from 85.63.10.109.rev.sfr.net ([109.10.63.85]:46772 helo=token) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fcHKm-0000yG-NV; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 17:35:08 -0400 From: Mathieu Lirzin To: Karl Berry Subject: Re: bug#32074: maintainer-clean and removing configure/Makefile.in/etc. References: <201807082116.w68LGTiW004660@freefriends.org> Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 23:35:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: <201807082116.w68LGTiW004660@freefriends.org> (Karl Berry's message of "Sun, 8 Jul 2018 21:16:29 GMT") Message-ID: <87fu0twgvo.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32074 Cc: 32074@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) Karl Berry writes: > I think Automake shouldn't suggest something that is explicitly > discouraged by the GCS. > > Good point. I agree. > > I would suggest discussing it on ... > > Perfectly reasonable, but I'm just too old to have the stomach for those > discussions any more :(. Hardly the most crucial suggestion in the > world, fine for it to be relegated to the dustheap of history :). No need to be old to be relunctant about starting this kind of discussions which are often painful. :-) Feel free to reopen the bug if you change your mind. -- Mathieu Lirzin GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761 070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jul 08 17:36:54 2018 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Jul 2018 21:36:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51510 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fcHMT-0001EX-Q2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 17:36:53 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:47156) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fcHMS-0001EK-SK for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 17:36:53 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fcHMJ-00006E-Ux for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 17:36:47 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:43667) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fcHMJ-00006A-RL for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 17:36:43 -0400 Received: from 85.63.10.109.rev.sfr.net ([109.10.63.85]:46776 helo=token) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fcHMJ-00048m-Bd for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2018 17:36:43 -0400 Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 23:36:38 +0200 Message-Id: <87efgdwgt5.fsf@gnu.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Mathieu Lirzin Subject: control message for bug #32074 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) close 32074 From unknown Fri Jun 13 10:09:15 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2018 11:24:03 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator