From unknown Thu Jun 19 14:03:42 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#32047 <32047@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#32047 <32047@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 26.1; Misleading/confusing text about `C-k' in TUTORIAL Reply-To: bug#32047 <32047@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 21:03:42 +0000 retitle 32047 26.1; Misleading/confusing text about `C-k' in TUTORIAL reassign 32047 emacs submitter 32047 nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. 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[74.14.128.81]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t11-v6sm1925574qkt.28.2018.07.03.18.34.33 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Tue, 03 Jul 2018 18:34:33 -0700 (PDT) From: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 26.1; Misleading/confusing text about `C-k' in TUTORIAL Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 21:34:33 -0400 Message-ID: <87o9fn2386.fsf@moondust.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -3.8 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) At around Line 419 of the Emacs tutorial there are two statements which are not strictly correct, which might potentially cause confusion. 414 >> Move the cursor to the beginning of a line which is not empty. 415 Then type C-k to kill the text on that line. 416 >> Type C-k a second time. You'll see that it kills the Newline 417 which follows that line. 418 419 Note that a single C-k kills the contents of the line, and a second 420 C-k kills the line itself, and makes all the other lines move up. C-k 421 treats a numeric argument specially: it kills that many lines AND 422 their contents. This is not mere repetition. C-u 2 C-k kills two 423 lines and their Newlines; typing C-k twice would not do that. The example(s) given in Lines 414 to 417 are correct. But the sentence beginning on Line 419 is misleading. It is only true when point is at the beginning of the line. Likewise the sentence beginning in Line 420 and the sentence beginning in Line 422 ("C-u 2 C-k kills...") about using `C-k' with a numeric argument are misleading in the same way -- the writer is assuming that point was at the beginning of a line without telling the reader of the assumption. [In my opinion, what gets the text into trouble is that it starts talking about `C-k' killing lines, when what it really does (despite its name `kill-line') is kill from point to the end of a line, except when point is at the end of a line when it deletes the Newline separating the line from the following line (if any). This is made clear in the examples in Lines 414 to 417 and then confuddled in the paragraph at Line 419. To really kill lines one needs `kill-whole-line'. Whereas `kill-line' is best thought of as "kill to end of line".] In GNU Emacs 26.1 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.26) of 2018-05-28 built on moondust.localdomain Windowing system distributor 'Fedora Project', version 11.0.11906000 System Description: Fedora release 27 (Twenty Seven) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 11 12:12:23 2018 Received: (at 32047) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jul 2018 16:12:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55841 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdHj5-0003PZ-4D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 12:12:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:46762) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdHj3-0003PN-Sm for 32047@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 12:12:22 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdHiv-00050O-Jx for 32047@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 12:12:16 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:53268) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdHiv-00050I-Gp; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 12:12:13 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3973 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fdHiu-0005cV-Vz; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 12:12:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 19:12:11 +0300 Message-Id: <83h8l5g3ac.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) In-reply-to: <87o9fn2386.fsf@moondust.localdomain> (nljlistbox2@gmail.com) Subject: Re: bug#32047: 26.1; Misleading/confusing text about `C-k' in TUTORIAL References: <87o9fn2386.fsf@moondust.localdomain> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32047 Cc: 32047@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > From: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) > Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 21:34:33 -0400 > > 414 >> Move the cursor to the beginning of a line which is not empty. > 415 Then type C-k to kill the text on that line. > 416 >> Type C-k a second time. You'll see that it kills the Newline > 417 which follows that line. > 418 > 419 Note that a single C-k kills the contents of the line, and a second > 420 C-k kills the line itself, and makes all the other lines move up. C-k > 421 treats a numeric argument specially: it kills that many lines AND > 422 their contents. This is not mere repetition. C-u 2 C-k kills two > 423 lines and their Newlines; typing C-k twice would not do that. > > The example(s) given in Lines 414 to 417 are correct. But the > sentence beginning on Line 419 is misleading. It is only true > when point is at the beginning of the line. But in this case, point _is_ at the beginning of the line, isn't it? So I wonder whether it is worth it to complicate the text just for accuracy's sake? What do others think? Thanks. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 11 15:14:15 2018 Received: (at 32047) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jul 2018 19:14:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55900 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdKZ5-0007qP-HV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:14:15 -0400 Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.27]:41217) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdKZ3-0007qI-QH for 32047@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:14:14 -0400 Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC9AF21BCA; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:14:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; bh=gyVoODlFa6buOO5reLPjVpDXfSBQHEZjthFigGcRolw=; b=b41SzXZF uFSvElR6dorxmQCoGJNlBu8MVjXJEb1F2JLrjhbc32hrRH2RiNbaGMOiQ+aEkPD3 XkOBQyP1GdJ9rznkZDdUCty6eZnBhAfdEFZV/gwV88BKwWzP+amySa8kD1YqAKc4 grmSkjwAbhvEOXoi47bCojsV94ARCMUoYc7pHnneeLCN/O8D8O23NcxrREjSeT8D 3aYqoDuHXD9sDlK2rkSKfnkprZy08iuiF3cwB0FQHGwLVuxqu8yi/8QkBSYsXBgk 4fbkzSf076yMx54F9WFZ1c5TH2GT/NX4zm/B6E3zdyChPjRXEvLb9R+3x2NVCMTc ul1x4A2sX2crVw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=gyVoODlFa6buOO5reLPjVpDXfSBQH EZjthFigGcRolw=; b=C1M7ko14xyyq5NdIdHZXlvnp/8W1LPIULCWyA8QHJp/io llgMvZivbwDFG4FJeE6AZO3goF/lMpnUnJyarREDMuYJFzB08v6ZTf4U0UrIDs1C Daf2twwUqK/Tiww+OShor6JPmGWI5v2kaO3HfITmLn6ncyxYcEpFtKPeLDdKN8Js 2TeDSzghu3txSXsvp+Eor69upd1s0hZYZOupK1UZMfDXQ0muYO1AmNdKzid+tPV5 9n2LUJ77DGCmx1N9PhKtUR0V403s/+m12Itdc+hQ7bx5z2G02GNDF0A0xY/NKNoT PN7Xs994o//IA839wctLNnwGqf7FG1Oe01LqQAAhA== X-ME-Proxy: X-ME-Sender: Received: from fgunbin.playteam.ru (unknown [94.25.218.10]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B6B8FE4519; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:14:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Filipp Gunbin To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#32047: 26.1; Misleading/confusing text about `C-k' in TUTORIAL In-Reply-To: <83h8l5g3ac.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 11 Jul 2018 19:12:11 +0300") References: <87o9fn2386.fsf@moondust.localdomain> <83h8l5g3ac.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (darwin) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 22:14:10 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32047 Cc: "N. Jackson" , 32047@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 11/07/2018 19:12 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) >> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 21:34:33 -0400 >> >> 414 >> Move the cursor to the beginning of a line which is not empty. >> 415 Then type C-k to kill the text on that line. >> 416 >> Type C-k a second time. You'll see that it kills the Newline >> 417 which follows that line. >> 418 >> 419 Note that a single C-k kills the contents of the line, and a second >> 420 C-k kills the line itself, and makes all the other lines move up. C-k >> 421 treats a numeric argument specially: it kills that many lines AND >> 422 their contents. This is not mere repetition. C-u 2 C-k kills two >> 423 lines and their Newlines; typing C-k twice would not do that. >> >> The example(s) given in Lines 414 to 417 are correct. But the >> sentence beginning on Line 419 is misleading. It is only true >> when point is at the beginning of the line. > > But in this case, point _is_ at the beginning of the line, isn't it? > So I wonder whether it is worth it to complicate the text just for > accuracy's sake? > > What do others think? I think the doc is clear and cannot see what's so special about the beginning of line.. Maybe an example would help. Filipp From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 11 15:46:32 2018 Received: (at 32047) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jul 2018 19:46:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55931 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdL4J-0000Bm-UB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:46:32 -0400 Received: from mail-qt0-f170.google.com ([209.85.216.170]:44142) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdL4I-0000BX-KL for 32047@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:46:30 -0400 Received: by mail-qt0-f170.google.com with SMTP id b15-v6so22130655qtp.11 for <32047@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 12:46:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=7vS4Xya6TwCc+j91MgzPQDN8i63ofL+zzKszUeFeftY=; b=gLqFEuKmAVe8tGAKrOHbqBUYEzG6jGbAmrf3eM+J/KXEpAmXbVSgaTX0sY+3LqDikY yJjIC1sZz5tcRvw3fN70rBozJ6niqwWmiaRGwSdWGyGOFd3GsAvbEQlBzk+lgHIRyr+6 DI2mcuNGTb/3EDGjzSjlZ87QjTo38WRYTJ/KlY1hWDRnEZtiZlTtyaFNBLf+87wt8kWy /mCytsgTwBKgpphPZDyjCEn36pdRT9AdTnqtSlj8AIrbEeB0p/9g2cg2p3Z+6syEW0v3 3rk38LUwbjaLox0atjfbMfY+8G9ykrLLD98dYSRQ1wQJCbiZDupDfNuUrv+hU5CRWInP B2sw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=7vS4Xya6TwCc+j91MgzPQDN8i63ofL+zzKszUeFeftY=; b=sxJMh3ZbPmm+JKk7HAaOM1E+abyw2Q1dHKCDQqJt/HMGwmvoaZQLOzF0YY8Lzlauhl UeLTOq0Lr8iKr1ErbHFJ5oe9Dr2BeDD2HfsYF4ueCexImjfElJV0kYR1HMpBylgQCj2p NxA/z3TeE/juX7eRDCQwzcw9FKDyKS1Zs1x6WQz6Mbs8a9xpGfm7WPJxOKy//MNQ7oBQ rW9zZx3ETTH4ZaHSEc0oJE+doURZ86O1D+OrkY7fuOQCmPTgC4vELrC3asjp+NoJhcNC WuGV6qFr+hzoYUR1MAodXRnbt+sTkSnRlsks54yRjxW3ocvfidjo/N/2uklPRsSNFw5Q GIlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGoh4r/cMWsQnmRJLJjXzm9Mx47R/PNErzziT/QQmkotTuSucsP VAdvwDxUwauioLP9vMPeQGxy1w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfrqaQQ2aKEKCPd18B96gEVcG0cKTtKAkst293SOgUuMe8dDzJAtNQNEiubRtYVqzZxK7uwMw== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:8b67:: with SMTP id d39-v6mr16110qvc.180.1531338384649; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 12:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moondust.localdomain.nodomain.none (toroon12-3096782589.sdsl.bell.ca. [184.149.38.253]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w79-v6sm18120856qkw.35.2018.07.11.12.46.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Wed, 11 Jul 2018 12:46:24 -0700 (PDT) From: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#32047: 26.1; Misleading/confusing text about `C-k' in TUTORIAL References: <87o9fn2386.fsf@moondust.localdomain> <83h8l5g3ac.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:46:07 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83h8l5g3ac.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 11 Jul 2018 19:12:11 +0300") Message-ID: <87sh4p4ku8.fsf@moondust.localdomain> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32047 Cc: 32047@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) At 19:12 +0300 on Wednesday 2018-07-11, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> From: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) >> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 21:34:33 -0400 >> >> 414 >> Move the cursor to the beginning of a line which is not empty. >> 415 Then type C-k to kill the text on that line. >> 416 >> Type C-k a second time. You'll see that it kills the Newline >> 417 which follows that line. >> 418 >> 419 Note that a single C-k kills the contents of the line, and a second >> 420 C-k kills the line itself, and makes all the other lines move up. C-k >> 421 treats a numeric argument specially: it kills that many lines AND >> 422 their contents. This is not mere repetition. C-u 2 C-k kills two >> 423 lines and their Newlines; typing C-k twice would not do that. >> >> The example(s) given in Lines 414 to 417 are correct. But the >> sentence beginning on Line 419 is misleading. It is only true >> when point is at the beginning of the line. > > But in this case, point _is_ at the beginning of the line, > isn't it? No. Well, maybe! If the paragraph beginning at Line 419 is talking about the preceding example, then yes, point is at the beginning of the line and the first sentence is okay. My reading of the paragraph was that it was talking about C-k in general, not specifically about the preceding example. A reading borne out by the following sentences about numeric arguments which do not feature in the example. Perhaps this is all that would be needed to make this clear: In the preceding example note that a single C-k ... > So I wonder whether it is worth it to complicate the text just > for accuracy's sake? No, I don't think it makes sense to add any more complication here. This is the tutorial, not the documentation, after all. In fact, the discussion of C-k is more complicated, I think, than anything else in the tutorial, and it might be an improvement to drop the discussion of subtle difference in behaviour of C-k with numeric arguments -- the actual behaviour then is easy to understand when one uses it and it doesn't seem that the tutorial is the place to belabour this point. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Jul 11 16:45:43 2018 Received: (at 32047) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Jul 2018 20:45:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55962 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdLzb-0001XX-5j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:45:43 -0400 Received: from mail-qk0-f176.google.com ([209.85.220.176]:46127) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdLzZ-0001XJ-C0 for 32047@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:45:41 -0400 Received: by mail-qk0-f176.google.com with SMTP id o2-v6so14372086qkc.13 for <32047@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:45:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=hX6FycvVEzulVuolpdJqktT12/7TzM9ILyg34h2ZiFk=; b=Ly7ZHAj63JHBvNir/AnQRen/jwV/XkMYDIzefE4G1DJOXtL8+xYHFdx9mF6MRvpfUp WNUYJ5aLEy6/5UC7NtqMJrzI3/sVdc0iA5rSStBTGOTJwkFP99P9/LyvdVQgId8GMw0/ JKfMI8tVliJ6/uE+e+CafqAzejiyywJYbhkkFnMfxV0KxhG1vgPKTva6hkiZieYpua2E 3LB7dCOeHT6eXFgXwYYkzFZ8amLzpbIDD3PVYmQBH6b7ahkTxOEp/tJ3KahU9jzU0h7u jDwFsn0M9U2SY9uvflHfzEuRt+zYbDy2Xxrm44/nVzctE+1mcAf9Zfwniwm7SqUWtcyi LSXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=hX6FycvVEzulVuolpdJqktT12/7TzM9ILyg34h2ZiFk=; b=MlpYsvG5/8fJgeR3zh7v0ImFGllm7sObj1Xw5nyjEWoKhd1eYo275sJzOXG7Ug2c1U QGjC13ZTREmu6EkVmxQPeC+pQq2mItWPS+0cqQBQ86r4JijJSAPkBzo38Vuoq0JWFeqy C25GhEGYi/ZPkqmpkqiXDCBppssPL5mN1XfjUchdLpA+PlyNxjNwg3amkMtYipt6Rl3q K18StrrLVSC7EDys3NVEXKffOqlxs6j/GvK9OrEMbLu0SLJdLVGFOo1GX8vFS9hFg8pe j76N1JlGrzclgagnaEdxlQBORa6vbICktPrmLMLh3aF/ggiWtlIV4HHeUklFjzESOxpw laKw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHIWnjueCxVoU3rFVRf4meIChDvygo/xX1i5uQAKRO+LiClfsEm UlHO77LHJ0hdGGz9KRp+QX6oBg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfcoiwlx3GNkQZGEzFA3WpzMtl9lp1Fd1FLCmdaMgIXKA+PVcobyc4dgMD0I8YShVyQZJHoRw== X-Received: by 2002:a37:4792:: with SMTP id u140-v6mr184187qka.100.1531341935669; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moondust.localdomain.nodomain.none (toroon12-3096782589.sdsl.bell.ca. [184.149.38.253]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c93-v6sm22250475qkh.90.2018.07.11.13.45.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:45:35 -0700 (PDT) From: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) To: Filipp Gunbin Subject: Re: bug#32047: 26.1; Misleading/confusing text about `C-k' in TUTORIAL References: <87o9fn2386.fsf@moondust.localdomain> <83h8l5g3ac.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:45:29 -0400 In-Reply-To: (Filipp Gunbin's message of "Wed, 11 Jul 2018 22:14:10 +0300") Message-ID: <87efg94i3a.fsf@moondust.localdomain> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32047 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 32047@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) At 22:14 +0300 on Wednesday 2018-07-11, Filipp Gunbin wrote: > >>> 414 >> Move the cursor to the beginning of a line which is not empty. >>> 415 Then type C-k to kill the text on that line. >>> 416 >> Type C-k a second time. You'll see that it kills the Newline >>> 417 which follows that line. >>> 418 >>> 419 Note that a single C-k kills the contents of the line, and a second >>> 420 C-k kills the line itself, and makes all the other lines move up. C-k >>> 421 treats a numeric argument specially: it kills that many lines AND >>> 422 their contents. This is not mere repetition. C-u 2 C-k kills two >>> 423 lines and their Newlines; typing C-k twice would not do that. > I think the doc is clear This is not the documentation of C-k, it is the Emacs Tutorial. > and cannot see what's so special about the beginning of line.. Perhaps you did not read the OP [1]. There's nothing special about the beginning of the line when using C-k to kill the rest of the line, but when C-k is used to "kill the contents of the line" -- as it is in the example -- then point must be at the beginning of the line. The writer of the Tutorial makes an assumption that point is at the beginning of the line without telling the reader of that assumption. [1] https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=32047#5 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 12 10:15:13 2018 Received: (at 32047) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2018 14:15:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57216 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcNF-0002k8-0Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:15:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53836) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcNB-0002ju-HC for 32047@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:15:10 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcN1-0007DX-Ab for 32047@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:15:04 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:43514) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcN1-0007DN-6F; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:14:59 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1656 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcN0-00008l-8R; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:14:58 -0400 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:14:55 +0300 Message-Id: <83y3egee1s.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) In-reply-to: <87sh4p4ku8.fsf@moondust.localdomain> (nljlistbox2@gmail.com) Subject: Re: bug#32047: 26.1; Misleading/confusing text about `C-k' in TUTORIAL References: <87o9fn2386.fsf@moondust.localdomain> <83h8l5g3ac.fsf@gnu.org> <87sh4p4ku8.fsf@moondust.localdomain> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32047 Cc: 32047@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > From: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) > Cc: 32047@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:46:07 -0400 > > At 19:12 +0300 on Wednesday 2018-07-11, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > >> From: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) > >> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 21:34:33 -0400 > >> > >> 414 >> Move the cursor to the beginning of a line which is not empty. > >> 415 Then type C-k to kill the text on that line. > >> 416 >> Type C-k a second time. You'll see that it kills the Newline > >> 417 which follows that line. > >> 418 > >> 419 Note that a single C-k kills the contents of the line, and a second > >> 420 C-k kills the line itself, and makes all the other lines move up. C-k > >> 421 treats a numeric argument specially: it kills that many lines AND > >> 422 their contents. This is not mere repetition. C-u 2 C-k kills two > >> 423 lines and their Newlines; typing C-k twice would not do that. > >> > >> The example(s) given in Lines 414 to 417 are correct. But the > >> sentence beginning on Line 419 is misleading. It is only true > >> when point is at the beginning of the line. > > > > But in this case, point _is_ at the beginning of the line, > > isn't it? > > No. Well, maybe! If the paragraph beginning at Line 419 is > talking about the preceding example, then yes, point is at the > beginning of the line and the first sentence is okay. It definitely does talk about the example before the text. That's how tutorial are written: they show an example, and then talk about that example. > My reading of the paragraph was that it was talking about C-k in > general, not specifically about the preceding example. I see no reason to assume that. > A reading borne out by the following sentences about numeric > arguments which do not feature in the example. That's another widely accepted methodology in tutorials: after explaining something simple, build on that to explain more complicated stuff. In this case, the _only_ complication is the argument. The fact that the text introduces the argument does not mean it is now talking about C-k in general -- nothing in tutorials is ever general, unless the text explicitly says so. > Perhaps this is all that would be needed to make this clear: > > In the preceding example note that a single C-k ... > > > So I wonder whether it is worth it to complicate the text just > > for accuracy's sake? > > No, I don't think it makes sense to add any more complication > here. This is the tutorial, not the documentation, after all. Indeed. > In fact, the discussion of C-k is more complicated, I think, > than anything else in the tutorial, and it might be an > improvement to drop the discussion of subtle difference in > behaviour of C-k with numeric arguments -- the actual behaviour > then is easy to understand when one uses it and it doesn't seem > that the tutorial is the place to belabour this point. I actually think that the behavior of C-k with an argument is an important part of teaching that arguments in Emacs are not always just repetition. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 12 12:06:34 2018 Received: (at 32047) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2018 16:06:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57279 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fde6x-0005Ta-M3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:06:31 -0400 Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.20]:42041) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fde6v-0005TR-Sk for 32047@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:06:30 -0400 Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD4E2B9; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:06:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; bh=A0LN7xWZ/BO2G7YaCPFOIzVnMkeoWE5AsY1id/RM7rA=; b=hBhJO6Ab Ll/ebPsBey7ICYyJ2Hb/aPTuu5UHBzY9hk+wkDhSTkCg1IE/OYsaMasi55jjeHxu l6cEXB2DPrw1pG8s2rnvf9lLMKolq444cKSY8pinx1eomzMO/LkpBj//qyId6drr 8UmSFfbrAN3qz4aBoRUwJI2O4kfg2g7VjN58Bh3jMzDeaIA7Mn7ayBicY0aCio/5 fxqcQxkLiho6QVgdAp7hc8TwEXi1vX8QPO1yffCRy7GDut4okAd9lKZx1BDa7LYt e1SdLEhrMx4NLkUbqnKD06n6fmt7GM77roB8NmZe47KJPMVeiz6nQZTLq2LvdzPF dQCX6N/bgR2tkQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=A0LN7xWZ/BO2G7YaCPFOIzVnMkeoW E5AsY1id/RM7rA=; b=lrdm5FpGgOf1qnQaWpALamfjYJTvEJtblgGmsa4QWvSDm ILWmIIBy66zm+i8oHLPnjtPZHKyyUUmm/tPu5ytDMLuFBOnyN4nbCzv5mHvVPkPz hfRH+VeQFoIbA8a37z2Pps+B08WkS/0alztYsnD5+q712IPIEhZGxvL3eY3Yj3xE I00r/J8bE1XSPKz4AARUNxIwS/GiWAlyTc7V3OprSMvEcUSP8L8ARHo8Tndjr9t7 5tBK2D2nIMGenzo2B2Q/3hUg994C6olT++7mg8lqp2pa5a9G5eUn1oQeP0Bey9sa gnSsW8CP2lslVuMxQ87bPaUNteIL7a0GkglzrtTaw== X-ME-Proxy: X-ME-Sender: Received: from fgunbin.playteam.ru (unknown [94.25.218.10]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 31CC01027D; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:06:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Filipp Gunbin To: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) Subject: Re: bug#32047: 26.1; Misleading/confusing text about `C-k' in TUTORIAL In-Reply-To: <87efg94i3a.fsf@moondust.localdomain> (N. Jackson's message of "Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:45:29 -0400") References: <87o9fn2386.fsf@moondust.localdomain> <83h8l5g3ac.fsf@gnu.org> <87efg94i3a.fsf@moondust.localdomain> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (darwin) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 19:06:25 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32047 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 32047@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 11/07/2018 16:45 -0400, N. Jackson wrote: > Perhaps you did not read the OP [1]. There's nothing special > about the beginning of the line when using C-k to kill the rest > of the line, but when C-k is used to "kill the contents of the > line" -- as it is in the example -- then point must be at the > beginning of the line. > > The writer of the Tutorial makes an assumption that point is at > the beginning of the line without telling the reader of that > assumption. > > > [1] https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=32047#5 Ah, it's about "contents of the whole line" vs. "contents of the line from point to end of line". Anyway, I'd read that "Note that a single C-k..." as an additional note about the actions the user just did, so there is context. Otherwise, it'd start just with "A single C-k...". Filipp From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Jul 12 16:09:49 2018 Received: (at 32047) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2018 20:09:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57374 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdhuP-0004lu-34 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:09:49 -0400 Received: from mail-io0-f178.google.com ([209.85.223.178]:37360) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdhuN-0004lg-QD for 32047@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:09:48 -0400 Received: by mail-io0-f178.google.com with SMTP id z19-v6so29349029ioh.4 for <32047@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 13:09:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent :mime-version; bh=XM3YsieXU4PKLytalz9Cw8Nn4+Pf5bBf8ocLkGAj+Ek=; b=ZMgsYzlwouJvafBKGUS/grmIr8buYVFgw0kH6YSBDL4bi0tZk7CBOKfoQ/qrJN200f 3iP51ynjVKEpIWfh5uGe3Au09hYGAjwAp+PDuQv0AtnMm/mQcJ/ku91kZmO44V5mjfG9 G3TDm5IJrw+9FFvsMKGoTmxGpUd/izDEusk7GtrGCQhvqifHYUeIXPHNxnLQhBr/tCMf GcdAxwVGVhq4uRjocrLEjYo0zpA1ifY1CAKZM8zNAiMFygYHZMuWL9YDvQgM0a3DOYRw McDCQidwb/yC1AHgCLrkN3gOU9JIaywLaDwGhbZxG5RallXTw5zeq+anMvAO8vJMtcs1 26aQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=XM3YsieXU4PKLytalz9Cw8Nn4+Pf5bBf8ocLkGAj+Ek=; b=U0m2yWHzKls1SuYwuHqejrztT0Ago7/B2GYXXHmUCSuQ8BZRY2Mum35VTgKRCi72Vw ainMBFv4MPIvnwITT89JhB1eIiAQQt3NDVJK3ThXBCwOQFmJ93DHDue/CdmGeQ/W97U3 3v1R7fijegFEOTDx3qCx6qCiSLnN+WuxWBtnprqjvdceG7y526RU3bB/1T65HG46812N AvYeJLlyS9ank7vMmAiVq7Ucq1uxL94JTMJ0m9CihgIBVoj1Te1naLEALeCalymXnIjp 2q3DkoCLsr6lEaMkODj1KN5oxai/7b7fdZ5o/Eor246JtXakVMh8gbCVXUsFHa2oZB+4 75fg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEOY8G8A9Bi4I201Aqk7fd/B30ILgXyo/C3B2rInTZFDqGk3mZU yGNtbn4F8k6fQClAY5OjecqrCg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfz2nlF1X+/ocNnqtqIyCdSQFBRMEq7CyhPqm2SS2wBSd+miDF0ClGmFd1waDMRtmsbbuWD2Q== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:9494:: with SMTP id w142-v6mr27629067iod.189.1531426182075; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 13:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moondust.localdomain.nodomain.none (toroon12-3096782589.sdsl.bell.ca. [184.149.38.253]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d9-v6sm2693988itj.10.2018.07.12.13.09.41 for <32047@debbugs.gnu.org> (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Thu, 12 Jul 2018 13:09:41 -0700 (PDT) From: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) To: 32047@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#32047: 26.1; Misleading/confusing text about `C-k' in TUTORIAL References: <87o9fn2386.fsf@moondust.localdomain> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:09:40 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87o9fn2386.fsf@moondust.localdomain> (N. Jackson's message of "Tue, 03 Jul 2018 21:34:33 -0400") Message-ID: <8736woi5bv.fsf@moondust.localdomain> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32047 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) At 21:34 -0400 on Tuesday 2018-07-03, N. Jackson wrote: > > At around Line 419 of the Emacs tutorial there are two > statements which are not strictly correct, which might > potentially cause confusion. Hmm... well if no one agrees with me about this, perhaps the potential confusion is only in my imagination. I only reported this because I had just gone through the Tutorial from beginning to end (after not looking at it for eight years) -- so I felt that I was almost looking at it with fresh eyes -- and everything in it seemed good to me except this one paragraph. [The only other fault that I found with it is that I felt that it goes almost, but not quite, far enough to teach a new user "how to fish".] So if no one else chimes in with an opinion in the next few weeks, this bug can probably best be closed so that it doesn't clutter up the bug tracker. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jul 13 02:19:29 2018 Received: (at 32047) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Jul 2018 06:19:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57602 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdrQP-0006XS-Kq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 02:19:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:50801) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdrQO-0006XA-4J for 32047@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 02:19:28 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdrQI-0006KA-45 for 32047@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 02:19:22 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:57781) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdrQH-0006Jz-Vx; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 02:19:22 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2073 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fdrQH-0006Yp-9t; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 02:19:21 -0400 Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 09:19:22 +0300 Message-Id: <83k1pzejyt.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) In-reply-to: <8736woi5bv.fsf@moondust.localdomain> (nljlistbox2@gmail.com) Subject: Re: bug#32047: 26.1; Misleading/confusing text about `C-k' in TUTORIAL References: <87o9fn2386.fsf@moondust.localdomain> <8736woi5bv.fsf@moondust.localdomain> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 32047 Cc: 32047@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > From: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) > Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:09:40 -0400 > > [The only other fault that I found with it is that I felt that > it goes almost, but not quite, far enough to teach a new user > "how to fish".] Please elaborate on this, I don't think I understand what that means in practice. Thanks. 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