From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 25 16:46:45 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 May 2018 20:46:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48768 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMJbp-0006ll-7A for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 16:46:45 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:58013) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMJbo-0006lZ-Db for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 16:46:44 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMJbi-0004M0-5B for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 16:46:39 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,FREEMAIL_FROM, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:53422) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMJbi-0004La-1p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 16:46:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48910) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMJbe-0003mx-8E for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 16:46:37 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMJba-0004A1-8U for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 16:46:33 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-x244.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c09::244]:32884) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMJba-00048x-11 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 16:46:30 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-x244.google.com with SMTP id x12-v6so34099214wmc.0 for ; Fri, 25 May 2018 13:46:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ilphIQnhc+bnTFqM9T1C0y+vfAbHgMPg+RGR5GXtDks=; b=YfkoOcTlv5JQPU/xJwiBwO/w2Blj+kw2Ss+eUQwQjyrkwTKtK6/df4XEDDhnZ1SB0f Z/RsHErkGvN4Cv5W5yYOZnbhTjZ0V349gCcm/QGUejoGPEZeLHnd5T7szSSxCZC1wC1r 3EAXTQkhrvUG/cp2KmaKAFJ5PcckUKQIM/AHiNZAqtuLVoVEh3Ub8ao/Ffn3G3psVXft WJKzBosVtHhVqJZmrtp1Yzok54uib+550I/SIdpnnLLjNj3TPuSHffI7Eu2/CzJKu24a xj+QzCoi8dqJXzoRDwN9Vi59Fr/p5N8V5BS0VibxzKNbp1QCiX89bF64XDma/CVlA9cI DyFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:date:message-id:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ilphIQnhc+bnTFqM9T1C0y+vfAbHgMPg+RGR5GXtDks=; b=ABF1/SXUCcIy0MTzOo+IK1xmrNwWgq/sCyq90ReeCUlJyfw/F0Sb1koAVswK7/R4uo OQ72taFstSvz6E0icTzr3JKSGSd5IltF7PY5crtVYlCxCpWY1TSD6mAvyHWlCmtX7Wr3 4OGbSEZSOxiWw94stSKNODoP+Ppl2lJpG08ZTJaukoqDcw7c9Nt/cT7lsWQ7W7EAC6et 6U+BfBxCfa5HH9MgNTiubVWrI4l4NwGx23YJv0AiYYlIRutyLcLGmhmIEufWB9YkG/WG TvVrlWxI0f9KGpAt+KWqnB4y1RZSqq2gy1uku/MBs2EDyeyjd0liyn+H+67MpbMijDp2 yciA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwfI7T9GIEwMAeg4yaOCy6U9jZOIr6Tr3FGd72AfW/9Zcu91TiS8 blo8UkvGHYMiL8W+ahBOSUcpxg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKI9iZ2+rsBADRhqXdw4ExjQwkjVhX5sk2KqnXFg9aE7QBfn5yuEn3H/pWY04yQukmw3l/1gVA== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:404:: with SMTP id 4-v6mr2506359wme.23.1527281188447; Fri, 25 May 2018 13:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caladan ([37.186.179.197]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 136-v6sm9958191wmo.12.2018.05.25.13.46.27 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Fri, 25 May 2018 13:46:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Helmut Eller To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 27.0.50; Annoying ' to =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=99?= translation Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 22:46:25 +0200 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Executing this command: emacs -Q -batch -eval "(error \"can't parse input\")" prints can=E2=80=99t parse input I would expect to see "can't parse input" instead. Had I wanted to see a "can=E2=80=99t parse input" in the output, I would ha= ve written "can=E2=80=99t parse input" in the source. Emacs should not do this translation by default; this new behavior is a misfeature. It's extremely annoying that the behavior of such basic functions as error and message has changed so drastically from previous Emacs versions. People who like this automagic translation should be forced to customize text-quoting-style not the people who want the traditional and much more predictable behavior. In GNU Emacs 27.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.11) of 2018-05-07 built on caladan Repository revision: 6e362a32bc9d21f73a0f29ca6f45481edeea6f29 Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11902000 System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 9 (stretch) Configured using: 'configure --with-xpm=3Dno --with-gif=3Dno --with-tiff=3Dno --with-jpeg=3D= no --without-pop' Configured features: PNG SOUND DBUS GSETTINGS NOTIFY GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE XFT ZLIB TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 THREADS LIBSYSTEMD Important settings: value of $LANG: C.UTF-8 locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 25 17:31:25 2018 Received: (at 31597) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 May 2018 21:31:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48806 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMKJ3-0007xb-7u for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 17:31:25 -0400 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:38494) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMKJ1-0007xN-Jj for 31597@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 17:31:24 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96B552108C for <31597@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 25 May 2018 23:31:17 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1527283877; bh=FOyPcws4JEuwCiQid56iaSmPXhcRndJVfAyaKb86wpo=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=g1H3+/jut4wAUk/RGuCw9N93MNJc6QiahYLc9YIzDIPCiSL4DzGS9MuuIDt9uC+EE TRMR3nch17djHnIRx6bwRU0KS/74nCzCWf6KAzuPIa1qG0YCaDtPxZD0sqvc8sdteF MumUXdg0gfgRBtkNUvCxfStzNNjFIvEXnQP9YhuxxOaALeDLYkqfeyLwJOaOqh9ulf VBan+1HxJdZ51i+/EyGLfA/1/Yz2VgdeEdJ9QkWfzJt1984k94Ub/m2zHLQ9eievXY uARBjqUQ4thQHO6Ft2Q7uSn03x1og77oRaSvMRynql37MXryuUxqv65OT1yJdQvd1t +5HBlIE3Mfoww== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 40szvm2pZMz9rxD; Fri, 25 May 2018 23:31:16 +0200 (CEST) From: Tomas Nordin To: Helmut Eller , 31597@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31597: 27.0.50; Annoying ' to =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=99?= translation In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 23:31:15 +0200 Message-ID: <871sdz4e3g.fsf@fliptop.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31597 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Helmut Eller writes: > Executing this command: > > emacs -Q -batch -eval "(error \"can't parse input\")" > I would guess that what is passed to emacs as a value to -eval after this command is (error "can't parse input") > prints > > can=E2=80=99t parse input which then is expected? On the other hand, if I have this variable in bash: $ echo $message (error "\"can't parse input\"") and execute $ emacs -Q -batch -eval "$message" I get "can=E2=80=99t parse input" It's a fiddle but seems normal to me. Emacs 27.0.50 here. Best regards -- Tomas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 25 17:33:17 2018 Received: (at 31597) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 May 2018 21:33:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48811 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMKKr-00080K-Ko for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 17:33:17 -0400 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:38594) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMKKq-000808-Bb for 31597@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 25 May 2018 17:33:16 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C14CB20FA1 for <31597@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 25 May 2018 23:33:10 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1527283990; bh=az1nXuAIHMnn3qYprwrpIP59zibup7ultt0EpYZ6CaE=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=lLI2ZghFhCWBo+wta/mmXZYF951/AMkZofX+ey24hO23aWEomEF25xT0Wg2fEBOU6 CX5BUWtlAT9O9DFHQYXPhiJ+IgGsXtoGuuTlepHe4FxaPUNwDCQgkjqVvimhe2Gxrn zOJwtuP6yEOQAg1GtnnylYiPm+sSGdBZSOvRQ64aPDQ52PtyBl4zYjMfGdR6wQ7ZTo w/ucfxhCQMOeLCXlnXF8JsDBvZsNcOZpG2BUQrSRgctt9Tw64WnEm1x7Edn1KmrHxI 6ZivJh2Ob43DeC6WZAh5tgTKRfX9soAJrM0lnOIh4us80xhTqgiuT4MW8NK6bwPzJ8 7UQEwA6qu/5uA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 40szxx552Kz9rxD; Fri, 25 May 2018 23:33:09 +0200 (CEST) From: Tomas Nordin To: Helmut Eller , 31597@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31597: 27.0.50; Annoying ' to =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=99?= translation In-Reply-To: <871sdz4e3g.fsf@fliptop.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> References: <871sdz4e3g.fsf@fliptop.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 23:33:08 +0200 Message-ID: <87y3g72zfv.fsf@fliptop.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31597 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Sorry, I failed to read the subject of your report, please ignore my noise. Tomas Nordin writes: > Helmut Eller writes: > >> Executing this command: >> >> emacs -Q -batch -eval "(error \"can't parse input\")" >> > > I would guess that what is passed to emacs as a value to -eval after > this command is > > (error "can't parse input") > >> prints >> >> can=E2=80=99t parse input > > which then is expected? > > On the other hand, if I have this variable in bash: > > $ echo $message > (error "\"can't parse input\"") > > and execute > > $ emacs -Q -batch -eval "$message" > > I get > > "can=E2=80=99t parse input" > > It's a fiddle but seems normal to me. Emacs 27.0.50 here. > > Best regards > -- > Tomas From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 26 03:34:44 2018 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2018 07:34:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48990 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMTit-0004rq-RC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 03:34:44 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36815) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMTis-0004rc-Au for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 03:34:42 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMTim-000308-Mj for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 03:34:37 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:59118) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMTim-000302-Ij for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 03:34:36 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fMTil-00075g-V6 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 03:34:36 -0400 Subject: control message for bug 31597 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.99.98) Message-Id: From: Glenn Morris Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 03:34:35 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) unarchive 21588 forcemerge 21588 31597 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 05:32:18 2018 Received: (at 31597) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 09:32:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50159 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMs2E-0004uy-0j for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 05:32:18 -0400 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:27045 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMs2C-0004uq-KB for 31597@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 05:32:17 -0400 Received: (qmail 6041 invoked by uid 3782); 27 May 2018 09:32:15 -0000 Date: 27 May 2018 09:32:15 -0000 Message-ID: <20180527093215.6039.qmail@mail.muc.de> From: Alan Mackenzie To: Helmut Eller Subject: Re: bug#31597: 27.0.50; Annoying ' to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=99?= translation Organization: muc.de e.V. In-Reply-To: X-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.bug User-Agent: tin/2.4.2-20171224 ("Lochhead") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/11.1-RELEASE-p10 (amd64)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31597 Cc: 31597@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, Helmut. In article you wrote: > Executing this command: > emacs -Q -batch -eval "(error \"can't parse input\")" > prints > can=E2=80=99t parse input > I would expect to see "can't parse input" instead. > Had I wanted to see a "can=E2=80=99t parse input" in the output, I woul= d have > written "can=E2=80=99t parse input" in the source. Emacs should not do= this > translation by default; this new behavior is a misfeature. Yes. It's a misfeature indeed. It's already caused a lot of bad feeling amongst Emacs developers. The person behind the change, Paul Eggert, simply pushed it through without first securing agreement from Emacs as a whole, and had the political skills to prevent a consensus on the matter prevailing. I think he regards it as "modern and desirable" to display what he thinks the programmer wanted, rather than what the programmer actually wrote. As for actually polling users, such as yourself, first? Hmmm. > It's extremely annoying that the behavior of such basic functions as > error and message has changed so drastically from previous Emacs > versions. People who like this automagic translation should be forced > to customize text-quoting-style not the people who want the traditional > and much more predictable behavior. Yes. But no, such a strategem would be "incompatible" with the way things were when rushed through for Emacs 25. I did my best to make the nil value of text-quoting-style mean "do nothing", but was overruled, again on grounds of "compatibility". So, you're not the first to suffer from this misfeature, and you'll certainly not be the last. I think it vanishingly unlikely that it will be fixed. Sorry. > In GNU Emacs 27.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.1= 1) > of 2018-05-07 built on caladan > Repository revision: 6e362a32bc9d21f73a0f29ca6f45481edeea6f29 > Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11902= 000 > System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 9 (stretch) > Configured using: > 'configure --with-xpm=3Dno --with-gif=3Dno --with-tiff=3Dno --with-jpe= g=3Dno > --without-pop' > Configured features: > PNG SOUND DBUS GSETTINGS NOTIFY GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE XFT ZLIB > TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 THREADS LIBSYSTEMD > Important settings: > value of $LANG: C.UTF-8 > locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix --=20 Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 12:04:22 2018 Received: (at 31597) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 16:04:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51099 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMy9e-00036k-4n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:04:22 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53153) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMy9d-00036V-2M for 31597@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:04:21 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMy9U-0004XT-Nu for 31597@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:04:15 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:51136) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMy9U-0004XN-Kt; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:04:12 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2424 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fMy9U-0005Ta-3T; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:04:12 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 19:04:02 +0300 Message-Id: <83efhx84r1.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Alan Mackenzie In-reply-to: <20180527093215.6039.qmail@mail.muc.de> (message from Alan Mackenzie on 27 May 2018 09:32:15 -0000) Subject: Re: bug#31597: 27.0.50; Annoying ' to =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=99?= translation References: <20180527093215.6039.qmail@mail.muc.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31597 Cc: 31597@debbugs.gnu.org, eller.helmut@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > Date: 27 May 2018 09:32:15 -0000 > From: Alan Mackenzie > Cc: 31597@debbugs.gnu.org > > The person behind the change, Paul Eggert, simply pushed it through > without first securing agreement from Emacs as a whole, and had the > political skills to prevent a consensus on the matter prevailing. This misrepresents what Paul did and say, and I think is grossly unfair to him. I wish we avoided such ad-hominem attacks, just because we disagree. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 13:14:52 2018 Received: (at 31597) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 17:14:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51195 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzFq-0004tM-0X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:14:52 -0400 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:42863 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzFo-0004tC-1v for 31597@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:14:48 -0400 Received: (qmail 59490 invoked by uid 3782); 27 May 2018 17:14:46 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p5B14677F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [91.20.103.127]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 27 May 2018 19:14:45 +0200 Received: (qmail 11785 invoked by uid 1000); 27 May 2018 17:12:17 -0000 Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 17:12:17 +0000 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#31597: 27.0.50; =?utf-8?Q?Annoying?= =?utf-8?B?ICcgdG8g4oCZ?= translation Message-ID: <20180527171217.GA11447@ACM> References: <20180527093215.6039.qmail@mail.muc.de> <83efhx84r1.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83efhx84r1.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31597 Cc: 31597@debbugs.gnu.org, eller.helmut@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, Eli. On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 19:04:02 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: 27 May 2018 09:32:15 -0000 > > From: Alan Mackenzie > > Cc: 31597@debbugs.gnu.org > > The person behind the change, Paul Eggert, simply pushed it through > > without first securing agreement from Emacs as a whole, and had the > > political skills to prevent a consensus on the matter prevailing. > This misrepresents what Paul did and say, and I think is grossly > unfair to him. This was a highly controversial change. Paul could first have committed the changes on a branch and invited comment. This is, for example, what you did recently when implementing visible line numbers in buffers. It is a correct and considerate way of working. Paul did not do this. He blasted his changes directly onto master. Some of these changes were outrageous, such as forcing the replacement of quotes by curly quotes without the user having an option to disable this replacement. You weren't really involved in the fight against this. I was, and it exhausted me. > I wish we avoided such ad-hominem attacks, just because we disagree. Eli, my view of things is NOT an ad-hominem. An ad-hominem is when one argues by attacking a _person_. My paragraph above does not do this: it criticizes Paul's _actions_. I think it is a fair summary of what actually happened. And I think it is pertinent to the message of my message, namely that this attribute of Emacs which so annoys Helmut is not going to get fixed. Ever. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 13:43:14 2018 Received: (at 31597) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 17:43:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51214 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzhK-0005Xh-K7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:43:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:43496) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzhJ-0005XU-1Z for 31597@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:43:13 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzh9-0004eS-8z for 31597@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:43:08 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:52448) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzh9-0004eH-5d; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:43:03 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2585 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzh8-0001he-Iu; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:43:03 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 20:42:53 +0300 Message-Id: <831sdx806a.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Alan Mackenzie In-reply-to: <20180527171217.GA11447@ACM> (message from Alan Mackenzie on Sun, 27 May 2018 17:12:17 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#31597: 27.0.50; Annoying ' to =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=99?= translation References: <20180527093215.6039.qmail@mail.muc.de> <83efhx84r1.fsf@gnu.org> <20180527171217.GA11447@ACM> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31597 Cc: 31597@debbugs.gnu.org, eller.helmut@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 17:12:17 +0000 > Cc: eller.helmut@gmail.com, 31597@debbugs.gnu.org > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > > The person behind the change, Paul Eggert, simply pushed it through > > > without first securing agreement from Emacs as a whole, and had the > > > political skills to prevent a consensus on the matter prevailing. > > > This misrepresents what Paul did and say, and I think is grossly > > unfair to him. > > This was a highly controversial change. Paul could first have committed > the changes on a branch and invited comment. Saying this is a far cry from accusing Paul in nasty political tricks and in deliberately sneaking controversial code behind our backs. > You weren't really involved in the fight against this. I was, and it > exhausted me. I hear you, and you should know very well that I'm not too enthusiastic about this change, either. But we should be able to disagree without name-calling. > > I wish we avoided such ad-hominem attacks, just because we disagree. > > Eli, my view of things is NOT an ad-hominem. An ad-hominem is when one > argues by attacking a _person_. My paragraph above does not do this: it > criticizes Paul's _actions_. I think it is a fair summary of what > actually happened. The wording you've chosen to do that is what I hope we could avoid. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 15:36:25 2018 Received: (at 31597) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 19:36:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51276 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fN1Sr-0003aM-CF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 15:36:25 -0400 Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:39705 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fN1Sp-0003aD-Qy for 31597@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 15:36:24 -0400 Received: (qmail 43271 invoked by uid 3782); 27 May 2018 19:36:22 -0000 Received: from acm.muc.de (p5B14677F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [91.20.103.127]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 27 May 2018 21:36:21 +0200 Received: (qmail 12223 invoked by uid 1000); 27 May 2018 19:33:53 -0000 Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 19:33:53 +0000 To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#31597: 27.0.50; =?utf-8?Q?Annoying?= =?utf-8?B?ICcgdG8g4oCZ?= translation Message-ID: <20180527193353.GB11447@ACM> References: <20180527093215.6039.qmail@mail.muc.de> <83efhx84r1.fsf@gnu.org> <20180527171217.GA11447@ACM> <831sdx806a.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <831sdx806a.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) From: Alan Mackenzie X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31597 Cc: 31597@debbugs.gnu.org, eller.helmut@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, Eli. On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 20:42:53 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 17:12:17 +0000 > > Cc: eller.helmut@gmail.com, 31597@debbugs.gnu.org > > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > > The person behind the change, Paul Eggert, simply pushed it through > > > > without first securing agreement from Emacs as a whole, and had the > > > > political skills to prevent a consensus on the matter prevailing. > > > This misrepresents what Paul did and say, and I think is grossly > > > unfair to him. > > This was a highly controversial change. Paul could first have committed > > the changes on a branch and invited comment. > Saying this is a far cry from accusing Paul in nasty political tricks > and in deliberately sneaking controversial code behind our backs. He sneaked in this code in front of our noses, but none of us really appreciated what was going on. I certainly didn't (until later). > > You weren't really involved in the fight against this. I was, and it > > exhausted me. > I hear you, and you should know very well that I'm not too > enthusiastic about this change, either. But we should be able to > disagree without name-calling. It was me that rolled with the punches. Soon after this thing started, I committed an "emergency" user option to allow people to disable this forced character substitution. Within hours, this option had been "polluted" so as not quite to work. And shortly before Emacs 25 was released, the option was quietly degraded to a non-option variable, which one of the manuals said was for "advanced use" only. This is the sort of manoevering I was up against. (The option is now back in Emacs 26.) > > > I wish we avoided such ad-hominem attacks, just because we disagree. > > Eli, my view of things is NOT an ad-hominem. An ad-hominem is when one > > argues by attacking a _person_. My paragraph above does not do this: it > > criticizes Paul's _actions_. I think it is a fair summary of what > > actually happened. > The wording you've chosen to do that is what I hope we could avoid. OK. But I don't think it's healthy to pretend that the above didn't happen, and that everybody is kind, considerate, and respectful to everybody else all the time. I don't think either of us want anything like this to happen again. I would hope that, in future, all controversial changes get argued out first, and if committed to the repository, they go on a branch first. And the OP, Helmut Eller, deserves an explanation of how the current state of affairs, which he has reported as a bug, came about. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 18:23:45 2018 Received: (at 31597) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 22:23:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51335 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fN44m-0007MG-R8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 18:23:45 -0400 Received: from mail-io0-f171.google.com ([209.85.223.171]:44659) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fN44l-0007M1-78 for 31597@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 18:23:43 -0400 Received: by mail-io0-f171.google.com with SMTP id y2-v6so6822151iob.11 for <31597@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 27 May 2018 15:23:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=3sEl8hvrYgbQ6+ozdfIK2syN2zmgk7TrUtqRVLcThuY=; b=LW4MfaJbPkzDNtgb8FThZZJpkTcpDqOi0JlQaE+nSnNE2+41xw2KoWAuX4ChqLKXEA tA8xY+baeW2lkCxhJt9hS95lTyEDsPVAB0YH2QVp0NT3AAOuT5VPrXVEKBRXAhytbP3D cFHJq1E9gOlMEfn+j5tfJZEpj6B3z1olZEHv3IB9SUDmin+xZlBtwH/khwdC9vcqCSA6 kI70BuQA5noL1kWalHpbimSuGCCC1+NYWvTVjEkMxbDLYcZF6mhgxtZE02JPyYGXetB4 2moLnoE6+jiq7eS3YNgHvKxlITfwAaQtFD1OFmSsU07usBma0MbRXiIVMATOb/0x07pZ mnHw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=3sEl8hvrYgbQ6+ozdfIK2syN2zmgk7TrUtqRVLcThuY=; b=kc8efYtbczGbffmXcqvqvUSkc8czoNNRvIUdbe/isixdnVvKDILACoXDtOixJ4JXHa tkdx11xzLesolDslIeXAxp7hBnMAqXpUeor+3fuq/Un8tc3+luBxu5IFuVQwaG//pdiE vrewNmWNOF8Plqp/J8f8kGkC/2CJw7PglWMo8/jrBV3DjR1fwUZ+lGxAoKShDJ/2T/nO f2NOPtHFeQ6UA6AFeR9h9Sy8ox/J5eyGcNTHtcVtvJuN90xikwRcAvytvmrTHXa1OAcE rYuhDusI4Z5yrOrx+n6nl9nUnuJN1MFaPDHky8IS1NmcvteSJF2OnUICohKTObFDxbez u9CA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPweeJu0CNfU4CTowCZTyE0tQwyeFXYLr7vFyD2CQbquqf/GBMDWN F0uPWy5QT/zfnXcbPAiPNdU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKKB0mETk4pHz3W7vntt/84McopYmszp+G4EK/GWIrQEaEOc4bmBOMR2KE1CO7X0tVU7QYG7mg== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:3e56:: with SMTP id l83-v6mr4836342ioa.75.1527459817824; Sun, 27 May 2018 15:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zebian (cbl-45-2-119-34.yyz.frontiernetworks.ca. [45.2.119.34]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id g126-v6sm6048596ita.20.2018.05.27.15.23.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sun, 27 May 2018 15:23:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Noam Postavsky To: Alan Mackenzie Subject: Re: bug#31597: 27.0.50; Annoying ' to =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=99?= translation References: <20180527093215.6039.qmail@mail.muc.de> <83efhx84r1.fsf@gnu.org> <20180527171217.GA11447@ACM> <831sdx806a.fsf@gnu.org> <20180527193353.GB11447@ACM> Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 18:23:35 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20180527193353.GB11447@ACM> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Sun, 27 May 2018 19:33:53 +0000") Message-ID: <87h8mseo0o.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31597 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , eller.helmut@gmail.com, 31597@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Alan Mackenzie writes: > I would hope that, in future, all controversial changes get argued out > first, and if committed to the repository, they go on a branch first. The problem lies in how controversial changes should be identified. It's "obvious" to you that the quote translation thing would be controversial, but Paul didn't see that until afterwards. From unknown Fri Jun 20 19:53:19 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 11:24:06 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator