From unknown Fri Jun 20 07:15:25 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#31311 <31311@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#31311 <31311@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 27.0; doc of `pcase' Reply-To: bug#31311 <31311@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2025 14:15:25 +0000 retitle 31311 27.0; doc of `pcase' reassign 31311 emacs submitter 31311 Drew Adams severity 31311 wishlist thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 12:03:52 2018 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2018 16:03:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43034 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fConn-0002Ja-LM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:03:52 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:37176) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fConl-0002JM-I6 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:03:50 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCone-0003ki-T1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:03:44 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:48980) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCone-0003kd-Px for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:03:42 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56379) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCond-000480-1b for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:03:42 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fConZ-0003jr-Th for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:03:41 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:56964) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fConZ-0003jb-Kt for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:03:37 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w3TG3Zt1123026 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:03:35 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=9Ueet0ctWo+4MmwK2yzc/3SbyepRQs6MRJvf14ctINA=; b=nfQ+lcNkOUtus8aw+60yv/W8glJFJjdzRV8TZD+6nDpFYstyVmKnDhZBuw8yBfbxZubd 5xjjdMBX1Z1wOM4+tUiLe7zPFZO/lnNbgUmjnczybiA4f7ZtiwchfDjHQuUctSdghbpO XkpLMtz4LyNVhi6VqSQx81pyzSGk8/W2iKTiupCG0uK+4w4Bc1mNQEMoDxglFIy8XE4j YBqFSSds9/MHoMcuyKPRy6zhX5MpqJJmZ/+qcvfn0UHUArzxqMyeWd/5ro2MAOL9Oaa6 9R26xfxmngkfz2IK4alfvY48WJkvKINz0StI5d0OT3M15KyQgChOD512UuFypuuULOwV CA== Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2hmgxfhxm3-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:03:35 +0000 Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w3TG3YHM012350 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:03:34 GMT Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w3TG3XEC030876 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:03:34 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:03:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 27.0; doc of `pcase' X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4678.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8878 signatures=668698 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=1 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804290160 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) 1. Please rename Elisp manual node `Pattern matching case statement'. It should use Title Case (not Sentence case), like the other nodes. And do not refer to "case", as the other index entries that match `case' have nothing to do with conditionals. And the node name can be shorter, e.g., `Pattern-Matching Conditional'. 2. Don't use ATOM unless you mean any atom, even if you explain subsequently that you really mean a self-evaluating atom. In particular, an arbitrary symbol is an atom, and (especially if ATOM is described before SYMBOL) ATOM would seem to cover the SYMBOL case, which it does not. Just use "CONSTANT" instead of "ATOM". AFAIK, every self-evaluating sexp in Emacs Lisp satisfies `atomp' (but not everything that satisfies `atomp' is a self-evaluating sexp). The doc should also make clear whether the ATOM clause covers a symbol defined using `defconst'. The answer seems to be no; it seems to be covered instead by the SYMBOL clause. 3. The doc string (but not the Elisp manual, node `Pattern matching case statement') refers to "the object" without ever specifying what it is. This makes all of the specifications that use "the object" meaningless: 'VAL, (pred FUN), and (app FUN PAT). The manual uses "the value being matched" instead, which is OK (understandable). Still, it would be clearer to give a name to "the value being matched" at the beginning: EXPVAL, for example, at the place where you say, "based on the value of EXPRESSION". Similarly, replace "value of the EXPRESSION that is the first argument of 'pcase'" by the name you give that (e.g. EXPVAL). 4. The doc string seems to be describing a different animal from the manual. Try to harmonize the two descriptions, including wrt the order of pattern presentation. 5. Don't use "QPattern" and "UPattern". Use "Q pattern" and "U pattern", or (probably better) "Q-pattern" and "U-pattern". 6. This part of the description of `guard' is unclear, to me: For example ... and let-binds the variable 'x' to that number. I see nothing in the descriptions of `guard' and `and' that indicates why `x' would be let-bound in this example. 7. The doc-string descriptions do not correspond to those in the manual, in several cases. E.g. (app FUN PAT) is different from (app FUNCTION UPATTERN). Is the pattern necessarily a U-pattern? Similary for `or' etc. 8. Please check for typos. E.g., "Matches if one the argument UPatterns matches." 9. This is not clear to m: "For this reason, if any of the UPatterns let-bind symbols to the matched value, they should all bind the same symbols." Should it instead say that they should all bind the same symbols to the matched value"? Also, does a similar thing need to be said for `and'? 10. This text: "The function calls used in the 'pred' and 'app' UPatterns can have one of the following forms" seems wrong. Presumably what it is trying to say is that PREDFUN and FUNCTION "can have one of the following forms". Those forms are not necessarily function calls. Similarly, for the text "The FUNCTION call can use one of the forms described below" - just say "FUNCTION can use...", not "The FUNCTION call can use...". 11. Do not say "lambda-function". Say either "lambda expression" or "anonymous function". There is no such thing as a lambda function. You might also want to xref node `Lambda Expressions'. 12. "Here is an illustrative example" -> "Here is an example". 13. "you can use backquoted patterns that are more powerful" -> "you can use backquoted patterns, which that are more powerful". The comma is important. This part of the node is not "in addition" to some previous description of backquoted patterns; this _is_ the description of backquoted patterns, i.e., Q-patterns. What came before was the description of unquoted patterns, i.e., U-patterns. 14. "(note that this example requires lexical binding, *note Lexical Binding::)". Say _why_ this is the case, not just that it is true. Why does it require lexical binding? Also, the code needs wrapping; two of the lines are too long: (funcall (evaluate fun env) (evaluate arg env)) -> (funcall (evaluate fun env) (evaluate arg env)) (lambda (val) (evaluate body (cons (cons arg val) env))) -> (lambda (val) (evaluate body (cons (cons arg val) env))) 15. Break up the paragraph that begins "Here '`(add ,x ,y)' is a..." 16. All of the following text in the _doc string_ is pretty much incomprehensible, to me. It's not clear what it's trying to say or even, in some cases, how it relates to `pcase' at all. And most of it seems to have no correspondence in the manual. -- (radix-tree-leaf VPAT) Not documented. -- (cl-struct TYPE &rest FIELDS) Pcase patterns to match cl-structs. Elements of FIELDS can be of the form (NAME PAT) in which case the contents of field NAME is matched against PAT, or they can be of the form NAME which is a shorthand for (NAME NAME). -- (seq &rest PATTERNS) Build a 'pcase' pattern that matches elements of SEQUENCE. The 'pcase' pattern will match each element of PATTERNS against the corresponding element of SEQUENCE. Extra elements of the sequence are ignored if fewer PATTERNS are given, and the match does not fail. -- (eieio &rest FIELDS) Pcase patterns to match EIEIO objects. Elements of FIELDS can be of the form (NAME PAT) in which case the contents of field NAME is matched against PAT, or they can be of the form NAME which is a shorthand for (NAME NAME). -- `QPAT Backquote-style pcase patterns. QPAT can take the following forms: (QPAT1 . QPAT2) matches if QPAT1 matches the car and QPAT2 the c= dr. [QPAT1 QPAT2..QPATn] matches a vector of length n and QPAT1..QPATn ma= tch its 0..(n-1)th elements, respectively. ,PAT matches if the pcase pattern PAT matches. ATOM matches if the object is 'equal' to ATOM. ATOM can be a symbol, an integer, or a string= . In GNU Emacs 27.0.50 (build 3, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2018-03-21 Repository revision: e70d0c9e66d7a8609450b2889869d16aeb0363b5 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install -C 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 12:40:12 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2018 16:40:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43072 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCpMy-000776-OE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:40:12 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:43282) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCpMx-00076q-4L for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:40:11 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCpMo-0002kp-Mz for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:40:05 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:45861) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCpMo-0002kj-JU; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:40:02 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4556 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fCpMn-0001iH-Qa; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:40:02 -0400 Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:39:47 +0300 Message-Id: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:03:32 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) It seems that no one really cares to document this facility. Maybe 'pcase' is seen as a kind of test: if you succeed in using and understanding it without any clear documentation, you are admitted to certain quarters where only wizards can enter. What you see in the manual is mostly the result of desperate efforts of a single individual to have something remotely palatable in our documentation. Consequently, bug reports without patches are unlikely to yield any real results, IME. TIA From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 13:02:27 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2018 17:02:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43092 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCpiU-0007hJ-3x for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 13:02:27 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:37008) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCpiS-0007h4-GT for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 13:02:24 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w3TH1xY7104130; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:02:18 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=KXFeHRWXO9hQhb5Mqi4OYpemlsBhfQtmDpz5sId+0OI=; b=UVBlMISIRgAPUynpLDOlizxruvlSif6usWz8a+hGlOjiSxPESDfCopN7I6BDhpNftzy0 M3ve6dWmaQxVOYJE+HV21/se2jLPU0jt09OVJp5mhu/hIJDLHfwzM4gJ2nWvWu5cwLJp wJPqwDN9YGXH68Oh43Olv8hG5C/KjWKpHAIPbsB4P8zvb926sKpu8qDahE3EPKsMSoKa fWwV9Hib/98hiAQH7aEPbo2A/ZVyvg8wwFSMuUIfd/0+ooQjOTKUoiWIkmz3wWJ1AIIt 6rAAvlOCfkKR/fFJuQrF8t5AY6YVQ+3jQ2fij6JETeBaQRlVuFC2FtlE4qvjYdSTlBYw /w== Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2hmhmf9y12-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:02:18 +0000 Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w3TH2HM6022672 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:02:17 GMT Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w3TH2HwH005273; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:02:17 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <9cd18e10-8f14-4a49-a3a4-ed9d50afe860@default> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:02:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: RE: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <> <<83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4678.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8878 signatures=668698 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=887 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804290171 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > It seems that no one really cares to document this facility. I care enough about `pcase' and its doc to file this bug report. > Maybe 'pcase' is seen as a kind of test: if you succeed in > using and understanding it without any clear documentation, > you are admitted to certain quarters where only wizards can enter. If that's the approach being taken then perhaps remove all of the doc. If users need to resort to analyzing the code and trying examples (tests) then perhaps no doc is better than misleading doc. I don't think that's the case, but if you think it is then please remove the doc. I think the doc is partly helpful. But it needs fixing. Dunno whether it is currently better than nothing, but I think so. > What you see in the manual is mostly the result of desperate efforts > of a single individual to have something remotely palatable in our > documentation. >=20 > Consequently, bug reports without patches are unlikely to yield any > real results, IME. Too bad. Perhaps you can at least remove the incomprehensible and seemingly unrelated text (I cited) that appears at the end of the doc string, as a start. There are also some other parts of my report that can be acted on without any real knowledge of `pcase', I believe. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 13:16:56 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2018 17:16:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43099 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCpwW-00084Y-6f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 13:16:56 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:51890) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCpwU-00084I-5G for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 13:16:54 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCpwL-0000TL-NO for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 13:16:48 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:46344) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCpwL-0000TF-Ja; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 13:16:45 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4813 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fCpwL-0002sI-1y; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 13:16:45 -0400 Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:16:30 +0300 Message-Id: <83sh7erl01.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <9cd18e10-8f14-4a49-a3a4-ed9d50afe860@default> (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:02:16 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <> <<83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org>> <9cd18e10-8f14-4a49-a3a4-ed9d50afe860@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:02:16 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org > > > What you see in the manual is mostly the result of desperate efforts > > of a single individual to have something remotely palatable in our > > documentation. > > > > Consequently, bug reports without patches are unlikely to yield any > > real results, IME. > > Too bad. > > Perhaps you can at least remove the incomprehensible and > seemingly unrelated text (I cited) that appears at the end > of the doc string, as a start. > > There are also some other parts of my report that can be > acted on without any real knowledge of `pcase', I believe. Sorry, I refuse to invest any more efforts in documenting this. If there's someone else out there who cares, let them show their resolve. I'm sorry I need to choose this form of protest, but I tried everything to cause those who know about this more than I do to write some decent documentation, and I'm out of ideas. Shame on me. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 13:26:47 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2018 17:26:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43109 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCq63-0008Kf-CX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 13:26:47 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:47710) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCq62-0008KN-8q for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 13:26:46 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w3THQVhV116083; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:26:40 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=JMLoWqsodPeli1To8JoxjSLIpPcVieHRsvpdRWYE7cw=; b=PAYqHF10R7d2fcwtC1A4Nu/b87ZUPY8EJmmdz5cnI0Cw9lu7Kwhlgzg49+RKk50UsPVv NyCK8FU67LirrpI53HgqT1ZJM9/Ok746TduWi7Xfb66+gtgY/WVQN2oX5eQlZ7rkv6mW l2/tMid/fj7qDTUoCluwaROCmkYs93uDTusm4FKWpUsWor+vU5A7kh3quZKChZPHjxf8 YoAAMs/iETYlltZ2VMNShW0SDCWCrcoXKj1HFaKImhpjIpWXGue36AJrQYVNgkTzto/C KCTstqZK8f/QPeWY6aTKsOgfaqTvFIPz4sf1Nhr5qGJJ7yO5rEZvD5Bvvcw5mNRUlgFT Hw== Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2hmhmf9ydt-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:26:40 +0000 Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w3THQdI7024293 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:26:39 GMT Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w3THQcPj019544; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:26:39 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <729f9030-7e2c-45be-a0fe-91a0419c5162@default> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:26:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: RE: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <<>> <<<83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org>>> <<9cd18e10-8f14-4a49-a3a4-ed9d50afe860@default>> <<83sh7erl01.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83sh7erl01.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4678.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8878 signatures=668698 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=1 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=1 mlxscore=1 mlxlogscore=214 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804290176 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Sorry, I refuse to invest any more efforts in documenting this. If > there's someone else out there who cares, let them show their resolve. >=20 > I'm sorry I need to choose this form of protest, but I tried > everything to cause those who know about this more than I do to write > some decent documentation, and I'm out of ideas. Shame on me. Understood. No sorry, no shame. Emacs doc is as good as it is because of your efforts - thank you. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 14:32:14 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2018 18:32:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43135 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCr7O-0001VT-92 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 14:32:14 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:36963) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCr7M-0001VF-0q for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 14:32:12 -0400 Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.217.119.40]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb103 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M3T5g-1eMGUj0Rge-00r00H; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:32:01 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:31:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:39:47 +0300") Message-ID: <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:X2eVyCqDTQzQ454hJlFlPcMQvvl33cv3H0z6v5XxMPZz1uwamL4 0taBhoTuj5TDpVq9iT+CYXbQsAKs1rbRq4CbIracqXhxFOX1aacWyYYqSO2NLu7Yu1yNYSe lDvHQQJ26QbW/tZJnJS0efN2W6M07CT3Jn6kLoUghmgsVAGop5XQ50cFGHjy2OWYvbcwa86 tb/k1jfBydu8t0l9GJ3sg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:+9xO1i7ERpc=:Zgnf+zEdp7vNbmZIeizS/p hrdzfbUswp0hlU4jU3UtY3Myia9vJfQtDz3xKnjVUrxvJz0i+5y+AKTEbJB9Two5Z+AYKp3rC GtVveWF1mYwJs3LbGqMfgOxVYL4LKLy3Cckvx91gvQiulBRcheayalevqtxRs3capvFC0tYtp 58GN5KayrCT4+qs22PWkar+PWBVvxtmF7Lo+AfwUye5DCJijC9sEoLTUwkKtu/Uo2oVdg14+4 Rr42zoQrYloa5lQIj4lVJjIJsYPYrsBBqhDCKYGoqguLv9HhaSkJ1aPatBmclJtyNMhWaoRjd S4Z4Xg8UEcCt+B6rIq+ljCVJ4Z0X9y9xxicj7VSEDcCFO3KiskqjbqnhacLLIxa57vQ5aIZAc izhCldvkMNJcex/uv6GLqLzVlBir7/8rsvgCIiXQ54sbqd8r+1HYepRtfQ9l49b+Ksycyx6p0 X2Arez/xW4QvDK7QWX41ecZztuztuNmE5SngRsvGN0MkxtBl127stby3sIBCi288LQ5AAS1bo DvTyxvFhQi3784t4zV721EYtgRDNNAHSNRdjYmZ34RaWMwPw6cN/pChxr5mnqKMQnj9XS+BAG 7DSu2psLKuyQN22EyPc1c7n2OBBFUJskuvOJKyOb9KyTHa1ReIFZARn39kOPGgi23RE08FM0a GTOYygax/UXjqA8qtd/S3sAmOYGm5BJKlRWCbKFcStqZQ+jZeWOZUzmJNQNBjYWFa9zAtSMVx P8aUFEhtQAqAnVfSmJuqWbp739zEA84igRKFjG1FIbwLyKIIWv6VK4YdCAOT4f4g1ONDxtxZg 2ZA+MaT X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > It seems that no one really cares to document this facility. Maybe > 'pcase' is seen as a kind of test: if you succeed in using and > understanding it without any clear documentation, you are admitted to > certain quarters where only wizards can enter. > > What you see in the manual is mostly the result of desperate efforts > of a single individual to have something remotely palatable in our > documentation. My impression was more that there were diametral conceptions of how a good documentation would look like. And there _has_ been some improvements of the original (sparse) docs, I now find the docstring of the macro itself quite good (and complete). The texts in the manual are not so good for otoh, I agree. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 14:38:16 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2018 18:38:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43139 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCrDD-0001ds-UX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 14:38:16 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.14]:48323) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCrDB-0001df-DD for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 14:38:15 -0400 Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.217.119.40]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb002 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MD8VY-1f9aUw2TSG-00GbvN; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:38:02 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: > <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org>> <9cd18e10-8f14-4a49-a3a4-ed9d50afe860@default> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:38:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <9cd18e10-8f14-4a49-a3a4-ed9d50afe860@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 29 Apr 2018 10:02:16 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87a7tlluye.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:+YJ41n59AY0qrmqmt2HU/YUYRF3rRX1OiGBmz/xgnPLipYzEQxo 9vhza6gamhlyqQ2178sm1r7plV5kFYc+A4ubpVYiKao6KIt+ogFC2s0axiSYjWuA5ATv4LA YNY0j7wJqgizE904MTbnrnAf/XF2yfb8TVE/XcMX7XjFO7rgBTN/u1DkD3hPsJXjO+Tlxj1 ohM6tx6TacZGOo152pt8A== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:2Ov7OLEqXIk=:I02ACmKJ4QTWVWo9FJowYb mDvOE/h4w4ukbg1XSfO3RK32y3u4PenOUjivt3LsHZzck/fcKAWLglgPNQiyzcPCKZ4DHq5mO LcX3TvNyrvUDiGimJc9G4r7TpxSKUyEHIBiaaaYbBgfcP276WxEB18iOoqu/VnyivXwIjb4qc Z59EtguxYOrC/C+YeaLYaRHEZeEh4ByZotYFgyVdj7oVgQsmdVzYDcVQpdX4MAlesCw2SHwTk vyutKR3QhZwvEonB8mUnnnadLkCvX+ovFzUUeVuGlryJ0uscPZ0LttMLbwZEBlC8ZY/ZiSUAP zKTBLRguOPeB7APDxCNbwb2Rt3ijN7ljKDwR6em3OjYJkXjgoqg4ah0C7rTB3e/VdUvM+0cYp 0GXroZ3+Wc61GL0pybr71c/EWCNOKy8B5XUu6vXsFyVWEGOEW8ZdNT5V7ThA6DAk4kvXus6jh JeNu0nYomyoYexSkgtYFgeauNxqZXCbwTEWkE74xBZTcn3gpZZoiRGMN75uKbXEXmRT+aekwE kdXd9KBL1MGTvcHMePhyREarFhldxKO7Ca9IARXcKZOQh6xYxvVfWusogak04xtPw/mNIMUjv Pm1N7lAeoAQm3cy8YOHPjbvOFmWFmmf9tX+azo+4b3h/Ix6KqdQ1beJ6MjX/TU01+ya5/ABWS L95brKO0PlRQ/xuVOeh58+ciAClDWAkj4/Shh/TCaU8kne3MiMmYwWP0eAeErji/glGNe172w gHWIBtdzeTR3w3R4hFsyH26AqTNLRIVNlSrnw6w8+haT6nIoheTycjPv7oVARaGc6HgEZOBLI zQRdBk0 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > Perhaps you can at least remove the incomprehensible and > seemingly unrelated text (I cited) that appears at the end > of the doc string, as a start. This is not unrelated: These are the docs for additional pcase patterns defined elsewhere: pcase is extensible, and the pattern listing part in the docstring is generated dynamically. As a result of that conception it may not read very fluently as a whole, but it's definitely nothing we want to remove. We clearly have some deficiencies, but the situation IMHO really is not as horrible as Eli's sarcasm suggests. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 14:46:25 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2018 18:46:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43144 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCrL6-0001pc-OH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 14:46:25 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:39221) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCrL5-0001pP-Bf for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 14:46:23 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCrKv-00076B-KL for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 14:46:18 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:47237) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCrKv-00075y-H8; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 14:46:13 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1536 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fCrKt-0006Ik-LC; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 14:46:13 -0400 Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 21:45:49 +0300 Message-Id: <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-reply-to: <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:31:59 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: Drew Adams , 31311@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:31:59 +0200 > > > What you see in the manual is mostly the result of desperate efforts > > of a single individual to have something remotely palatable in our > > documentation. > > My impression was more that there were diametral conceptions of how a > good documentation would look like. There's nothing special about this feature that should present conceptual problems for documenting it well, any more than any other advanced feature of which we have dozens in the ELisp manual. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 15:43:28 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2018 19:43:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43162 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCsEK-0003I9-DG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:43:28 -0400 Received: from aserp2130.oracle.com ([141.146.126.79]:49920) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCsEG-0003Hs-Kq for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:43:25 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w3TJc6vB108595; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:43:18 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=wQHZe11N/IDhU348ewpMeGWOduUvgPQJzy+S4uoiyyA=; b=cvNHEZGaVVn0d3pzCVEU55ffmE905uVLm7P5FXUPSZkDnzsNwLCkS4z2P4qlMQIg19mI wac4TNCHSbNAN+0dk4p0U5ZW3X5IQtYGKvCtKhHyJ9Meh+lssOMetZWvFqpWqGNKy8Xt 8YNJe1DMgCy0TRxxg1zasPt8QhiI5PV+gVpAoI2oFiKP3FOPdSdYfbiA4o2cY09u5OMu adkh1lU/5OZMh2ke7SbCTi0hFy9BDU1BqHKdzXm9sP1UEVs5iBCX2IRp/GMxKb1sExyv ZViHPwGBJalEigd2G1EdUIr5nFMO80r+Ae7UW5MCyNjp5hex65ou5NRHOkmywpeZ6fFD 8g== Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2hmeg5j67c-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:43:18 +0000 Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w3TJhHwn022428 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:43:18 GMT Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w3TJhGmW021178; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:43:16 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:43:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Michael Heerdegen Subject: RE: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: > <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org>> <9cd18e10-8f14-4a49-a3a4-ed9d50afe860@default> <87a7tlluye.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <87a7tlluye.fsf@web.de> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4678.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8878 signatures=668698 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804290198 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > Perhaps you can at least remove the incomprehensible and > > seemingly unrelated text (I cited) that appears at the end > > of the doc string, as a start. >=20 > This is not unrelated: These are the docs for additional pcase patterns > defined elsewhere: pcase is extensible, and the pattern listing part in > the docstring is generated dynamically. As a result of that conception > it may not read very fluently as a whole, but it's definitely nothing we > want to remove. Sorry, but that extra (dynamically generated?) text at the end makes no sense at all to me. I don't have a clue what it's trying to convey. To me it's just noise that can only confuse, not help, users. If there is some core meaning behind it then great. In that case there is a potential for it to say something. That's not happening at all now, I think. For the time being, i.e., until someone can translate that core meaning (what you really expect it to be trying to say) into understandable text, it should be removed. Please consider moving it to a TODO item somewhere, if you like. But maybe others disagree and only I have trouble seeing what that text is all about. Beyond that, if it is about showing examples of defining additional `pcase' patterns in the Emacs code then I don't think that kind of thing belongs in a doc string - certainly not multiple such examples. Even in the Elisp manual, I'd expect only a simple example of defining a `pcase' pattern, in the node itself. If it were thought to really be helpful then there could perhaps also be a note to see the code of this or that function. But I really don't expect that that should be necessary. Do we do that anywhere else? Either it is simple to define your own `pcase' patterns or it is not. If it is, then no such extra examples should be needed. If it's not, then can't we make it easier to define your own patterns (change the product, not just the doc)? >From what you are saying, it sounds to me like what users need to make sense of `pcase' is a blog article, showing examples etc. and building up from simple to complex. I'd rather encourage someone to write that than for us to try to cram such info into a doc string or manual node. =20 > We clearly have some deficiencies, but the situation IMHO really is not > as horrible as Eli's sarcasm suggests. FWIW, I don't see what Eli wrote as sarcasm. I do see it as negative, nearly despondent. But sarcasm involves some element of humor, irony, or satire, which I don't find there. In any case, there are two different problems being discussed so far in this thread: (1) the doc is bad, and (2) it has been given insufficient love. This bug is really about #1. But according to Eli, #1 likely won't be fixed because of #2. Dunno whether he is right, but #1 is the problem to report. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 16:01:08 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2018 20:01:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43176 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCsVQ-0005h3-FZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:01:08 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:33099) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCsVN-0005gH-P8 for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:01:06 -0400 Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.217.119.40]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb102 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MeBDG-1f0JxY2c3S-00PyRR; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:00:54 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: > <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org>> <9cd18e10-8f14-4a49-a3a4-ed9d50afe860@default> <87a7tlluye.fsf@web.de> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:00:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:43:14 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <876049lr4a.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:WduoVM1xsukmPhCJD8r4PEhQlTMLtvSZVW1uQFsZWJn0JlCzGM5 3/Unzxj8hJRL9hw7SmOnWFS6zRe/Orv8bFDb9ovdbc6s++PRbNN9C30GTJ0sD47z1euII4I 5TBySYjqfJG36djHtT/Euw7JRmCUHbgWbJDgF2K4FJ37muvO8PwJw8Y53+ygzC8p8rtmpOL 03v5b45q9AqWr5WGNXzHg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:3SChSexDagc=:0VNDOVdbruG3V68XkD94o1 BWIGJUQs8NeMkDeI/A0SctHN+fnQrAgixGl6qQQTt/FSwc/ZwaLubNuZVwlkue+pwbwWqVc8Z JdWxViZEAQJFEMQkVQb2lmKEV34bBGjRQYPuBZMnVaYht0cNrC0heH63DxbqMBnPO9TAzHLyb jt1/fKdM7WTOu0oRM/NwCozxgMMappU5vcZdVKEdIP7Obnf8e+f6AsgLQ3e/RAYdbCwZ8fb5F DDreVQUCofESWQRz5v5V7FHLdINsmz6AI/NpwVm3sCOgB7lJ7ExlYtmniQjbJnGWWkRuNROwv ImPyZyN2jneHEB+tFUWwHqdDn9KoFQ1EdnMfSXLIdEc76ygm9xch05Zdk2dnAMI3gSLHHwGFo e4Tbl28tF1HQUvgsQ8otOOTt9tan9zIHUgnv4muXg3kApsk3hNjOMI5vlWZZK4unWEWhuduVt YYueNIEMklkOdtBOIj3Yd7sO/lHNh7KIgCaanDAlBxQrj7PQMFMrWHyUnt+NWACPDL62zMSag +HZNUmi1awTNfJbMpXSqrm5MptFyDkz/aE877dwuOxoANAdDAm8TEQHRiUWN6zfic/KaYiR79 YszIp9EDVQ0YDJ2VT75RQ6sbpSzoFUcl+NJofpbaXCjUGV4QkMUIASuKi8nI+tDEv2Kzl2udO qD/oXzHRqx5+peVzTA0m7ziW0Z2DQ44ZDN56h4/F9HRESzFlbbXFJqhRKEdSXuZrR54xG4u7X xsH6EtDo4bMLJrv6lmsomTXY6niUioGI6tlcaXkpQ98YnizFbaZnOchoi4Tibx6yqa8H+spnx qK+RlL5 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Drew Adams writes: > That's not happening at all now, I think. For the time > being, i.e., until someone can translate that core meaning > (what you really expect it to be trying to say) into > understandable text, it should be removed. Please consider > moving it to a TODO item somewhere, if you like. But maybe > others disagree and only I have trouble seeing what that > text is all about. Yes, that's the case. It's not your fault that you don't understand what the text is about, however. > Beyond that, if it is about showing examples of defining > additional `pcase' patterns in the Emacs code then I > don't think that kind of thing belongs in a doc string - > certainly not multiple such examples. These are not examples. These are the descriptions of the semantics of additionally defined pattern types. Yes, there's a sentence missing saying something like "the following additional pattern types are currently defined" or so. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 16:06:08 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2018 20:06:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43180 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCsaG-0005oB-3w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:06:08 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.14]:37089) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCsaE-0005nf-Hw for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:06:06 -0400 Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.217.119.40]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb004 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MaHHc-1exYeh44Do-00JpAe; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:05:56 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:05:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 29 Apr 2018 21:45:49 +0300") Message-ID: <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:UtajFT0N+mb20UM+4UvN/rz7w6Jq3bUMFWlxBuLKK7iZUfpEsRL obE6VHvvl/UxON2OdQE+tv54snjICNJdlnUPdhoLdrXZFHvWm7kaJPH/cUDQpvNzrJwABBf G5OJhOEDX7KqEcgnH6SdYS5GQI6IIojxV3luWEGxnPbcq5M9Tr7DtK/NFayctOf70hT3Alh bLV8Wf+qHPnoyvIhlDy9A== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:BfRBCr7W9cY=:STuajzZqbg6541K9nmISFs WFZDPlCMGZbok9EUEygFbZWUhSyEx+BrZtA5kHEZmLGszxEaEG/bHWB8EPsB6GB0N/TUoXPZi VOozlQVph75y6fXXzNWnToqJWHeblJvNsKuQUHGs3B/E/cLcO3ILVAo3HPsKF2h5FtC8mHXZv ExSYarK1hHwiPHj0sO51i0ipsF2nMuTP5iYIATQ2eVnQwYR65vvMnLfyXi68Ooxj7drOR8udv l/IJmugWz25ayz8RmZzo4hWkZZ+2x5rcUjRzXAQV5DLRh/9N7r4Ydg92uBTQT/CgH9PiLFAIN oySMcWxUe5Mdm/2IGqVj/67RTc0J9FX6eSG+RVKcdk1KqObqdqylFx7vifkuTd7XZqTTxatA+ 01WtlKlW39pp/W9d3NBUXUnJVTsIka1x44XLdCfl4jSnF0huh67Uj8svH6o6bIcEL43JE9C/p EjZgX8K2kdMIhDYp98mYYzpcWYbdfL9x5at6DDyy7gYA1Gf74P568VHgpJLx295PxdEO7idJa GJ91Oem7yy9+pvx2bQgnZex6d1I8kAt7L36kmOnY32+Fmqa8oPuVN++sKu7MIoW5Z8DcTj8iT oRripMO6dWWidfhy6IL0ErK9La168MFF09jnJ/7Uf4fMHOcCJQ0YYGd9PwFD1wEpkRshQTePH eGr13CLA+52unyzB4KpAt1rp5THoYK/CNy9fDOaivdBQjkZ7X75aYE5QfEDZhrvHF3iDLuDva VIpkHR6113EB9AKCKAG2Nek2WXCDhq1XkyDYWGp3kHlHR8HuPEku/02s6lq5AjVcKWVBE+8T4 FYWQYU9 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: > There's nothing special about this feature that should present > conceptual problems for documenting it well, any more than any other > advanced feature of which we have dozens in the ELisp manual. >From the beginning people were divided about the usefulness and conception of the thing, and people discussed exceptionally emotionally and destructively. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 18:59:37 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2018 22:59:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43249 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCvI8-0003dB-Of for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 18:59:36 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:57086) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCvI6-0003cv-JB for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 18:59:35 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w3TMuHHS134781 for <31311@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:59:28 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=71MUKb5++6dXchA0jo7J6dQLYTbzeR/v9Ikn8xU3RUc=; b=meJGsdWV+wHRF1mJqsLfIi8h9RP0fjrqAp2qUTVct/mUgzFpqLWhYPTKNLlBhjtko60R dGHSCUqrGa7naTmVYUerbi3rX7T46EV256c6S826LgVLVU4M0Yg8dS8mUQ9JGGW4m0lx ssCyO72btsI2poPH5ZxgpvyHPH/vr/TmofrF2yY3upEUUtLGiBs6PVWqIpXymOk1NXCO C2GFxzL38RzqM1KmesayXY4E6oVJWAAh529QgsZk4imcd0jS4MoffgD3dcQUGBM2V0Ob jAieKhdICOtNy0joIVlkXp0GbNfnTO5ukUwjuThllcz07Cd6J4k+OI4fqqISSHjOgl4e rA== Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2hmgxfj5ug-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for <31311@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:59:28 +0000 Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w3TMxRKk030521 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for <31311@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:59:27 GMT Received: from abhmp0001.oracle.com (abhmp0001.oracle.com [141.146.116.7]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w3TMxRgo007348 for <31311@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:59:27 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4875e9e0-0f6b-433d-a50d-9125d8370740@default> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:59:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4678.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8878 signatures=668698 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=13 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804290231 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) 1. Even just the first line of the doc string seems wrong: "Evaluate EXP and attempt to match it against structural patterns." That should be something more like this: "Evaluate EXP and match _its value_ against structural patterns." It does not match EXP ("it") against the patterns. It matches the result of evaluating EXP (against the patterns). (And are the patterns necessarily "structural"?) I'd say: "Evaluate EXP and match its value against CASES." Even better would be to call the second arg PATTERNS. "Evaluate EXP and match its value against PATTERNS." This is especially so because after that we talk only about "patterns", never referring to CASES. 2. CODE is undefined (not specified). We say only this: "The CODE expression corresponding to the matching pattern determines the return value." So CODE must be an expression (Aha!). That should be said up front. But what does "_corresponding_ to the matching pattern" mean? 3. And just _how_ does the CODE expression that corresponds to the matching pattern "determine the return value"? The rest of the doc string never mentions the return value at all, AFAICT. It mentions neither "return" nor "value". [There is one occurrence of "return", but it is about something different: "(pred FUN) matches if FUN applied to the object returns non-nil."] The rest of the doc string (before the extra, unclear generated text) just talks about the available standard patterns and how matching is done - nothing about what value is returned by the code resulting from `pcase' macro expansion. Even if we can't get someone super-knowledgable about `pcase' to work on the doc, perhaps some rudimentary improvement can be made. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 19:16:37 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2018 23:16:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43253 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCvYb-00043T-9D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:16:37 -0400 Received: from mail-it0-f43.google.com ([209.85.214.43]:53050) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCvYY-00043F-Hs for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:16:34 -0400 Received: by mail-it0-f43.google.com with SMTP id f6-v6so8033367ita.2 for <31311@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:16:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=wp8/xHEZIdzMDMrZbzbNjLsU6XRy9/ku38gvXuVK6E4=; b=NxjQs0/6D5VNTzQp6XPhv3PY4y0Gq0E3gKEDkoBorkj445bPBCeN7O7bGywWTirQjt 3hcXIM2cv8ou+4o7jRAHHB/GbpQ0Wc02GwWXOQvHMwmrslEi4F6wxZAKD4KcKDwi/Tux iKOPpWIyq5UTn7Os7lP9PBe/fHiPJIqYbxmCnUSpYcTmrCnxtJmiCtLu2MO5lufKW0sM kNEqATtiTHKGNAIIe6jxqyOcxEQVFZUTLSzV0g1Ha3Na9078GfMGKOiqiGlw+32TZBx5 V/aJ2vwOaXzElafnnQZKEi3PEgAKCzlkq+gwascIHoSv9kTlGI13WElrCppJqmKDSuTF VMcA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=wp8/xHEZIdzMDMrZbzbNjLsU6XRy9/ku38gvXuVK6E4=; b=FR8j7pIyBbhQha2VP+WGMJi/zB5w71dx3LD98jU+mw1AndVBhQcDeesKcZ/koqX5pG hY/yCR7JkiIdtN7YYFYtYHOYhO4GHSTwDEE/Qg2LDLDXQrS7vqMKz4P5xR59sGQx43c8 FlYXQ6p3kipgNcFa7q4HNNj/IQdahbpjzqCXUI83jZrEKlLSP+T82p26y8sNV6P5QSks Df7Dli0YR2wnPgINEDQYcCgTCnfnVSHRYd1B3OXKx+dPZd/86IK7/xVVd5xtAMEGIOQi sCT5ju5VKYb+ml7htMvDOKse5WKTK3WYQiG/TRqLrr4dSRN/ekdrtE6ffaqu5Db4shAN bQyg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tD4axBKAa+zTuc1HBQa0ojOmRnJeYymWKgvUz6hmwEki1fvGCax heFxScAjm7ngbR3P/hbmBWcD9g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZqyVHhbLOchY+3Vl/fa0mhmVEEhHNJcozlR9Q1HsvMe3gE/xnnkvRcwyZwAi08ppha99BBdUw== X-Received: by 2002:a24:49c4:: with SMTP id e65-v6mr10048327itd.126.1525043788915; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zebian (cbl-45-2-119-34.yyz.frontiernetworks.ca. [45.2.119.34]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id z89-v6sm2928996ita.24.2018.04.29.16.16.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:16:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Noam Postavsky To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <4875e9e0-0f6b-433d-a50d-9125d8370740@default> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:16:27 -0400 In-Reply-To: <4875e9e0-0f6b-433d-a50d-9125d8370740@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 29 Apr 2018 15:59:24 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <871sexppro.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Drew Adams writes: > 2. CODE is undefined (not specified). We say only this: > > "The CODE expression corresponding to the matching > pattern determines the return value." I guess you missed the second line of the docstring? CASES is a list of elements of the form (PATTERN CODE...). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 19:28:25 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2018 23:28:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43261 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCvk1-0004KC-DE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:28:25 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:43090) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCvk0-0004K0-64 for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:28:24 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w3TNPlUf150446; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 23:28:18 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=HNsD35NiYou21cGaxMX0phRZ0ciOyJPBDvSKj7iIXE8=; b=bU1qthVoz/DEfg/hcogQ7RvjbUzYgZyHl8OKDnrWTSydkrKFMGDU9/CouKqkky4ufrPE lsBFabb4fmYXphJPcsX5WJTwfJAkB+h7X5NhYgYNzFVxP5B5yrmSdQypSvqRK9BX55Rs Dnk/Fkvz9SZFjwlyGio7cn1hhrooItA2xKz0xi8LVEmBGd66J6+ijpQD4DeFHWXDA+wi wbtCwFOdot0ML/kuxojARBohF8Ej0YfdLBDYfeUTShm15+esBJVAXe7/Jm5GWJowWL1d IObU54DcSCr1JgQbYEUkPa7W4RSGKiyOtg+aJfk8NXDFt5YhaElqFAx0rCNIJo+ZXq8b BA== Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2hmgxfj6ud-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 29 Apr 2018 23:28:18 +0000 Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w3TNSHZY019619 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 29 Apr 2018 23:28:17 GMT Received: from abhmp0001.oracle.com (abhmp0001.oracle.com [141.146.116.7]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w3TNSGqA013590; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 23:28:17 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <93772a7c-a3e1-4040-a2ce-1ef3d5e66950@default> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:28:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Noam Postavsky Subject: RE: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <4875e9e0-0f6b-433d-a50d-9125d8370740@default> <871sexppro.fsf@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <871sexppro.fsf@gmail.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4678.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8878 signatures=668698 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=680 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804290236 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > > 2. CODE is undefined (not specified). We say only this: > > > > "The CODE expression corresponding to the matching > > pattern determines the return value." >=20 > I guess you missed the second line of the docstring? > CASES is a list of elements of the form (PATTERN CODE...). No, not at all. That's where CODE is "bound" in the description, but not where it is defined. I'm looking for a description of CODE. The most one can say, apparently, is that CODE is an expression. What purpose the sequence of CODE expressions serves - what is done with them (or with any of them) - isn't clear. It talks about "the CODE expression corresponding to the matching pattern". Which CODE expression of the sequence "CODE..." is "_the_ CODE expression"? What does it mean for "the CODE expression" to _correspond_ to the matching pattern? (That should presumably be "the matching PATTERN, BTW.) Sorry, but it's just not clear. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 20:29:38 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2018 00:29:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43286 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCwhG-0005lg-DI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:29:38 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:60103) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCwhE-0005lR-Sb for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:29:37 -0400 Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.217.119.40]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb001 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LqUKH-1eiZpH1p7R-00e5NT; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 02:29:26 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 02:29:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:03:32 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87vac9k04a.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:38aVK3NEqSyIxuu0jgDz9ewVHliZ4KjABycPXW59WjOMO0JsJfz 4pm9HCjA+Wf74aAghdzffV3BsLgpcRjdk7XN5c58GWZhgk0AyJCR8Yg6TdXvosCz9ou2/1h VQNR8bm6LlJ3qlxev5fXOMKdgg5RAP3U58oBGxD47J5YZHQwJmX9R7uMc3WNfiLAmWspWme 63EygVXmF0w0xWk1OzJxQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:rzfIKhF/lV4=:7A1Heiw7xLA41ZPVXLikQo ZrqBe6ncLdQbP/t4U9BCqCkK3lObnXpi0cWskSgQgm/XpkplvhwFkEGqRKVuycqPWb+bJXQ6G RDV6M12y3ncXL/P1VcVIyNOaCvLKVJH/5f8hdRiRyv5WknM1cKRjVWHC8TvJqUKCOY1YKXn58 +ZHPGlEDZ6hBP200hVPY/G51/b8zU6MmRsF+yS54G9NrsQv7lSO7V9W0aEyX8fgcoMV/xGfxZ wPyI/c4Oy2eQcwInw63dHHfmJVlTrTa4yU3jNTPSL28/37j71JXfiPR7w+r9MuEzbGFT5KwUw +uJkJnfwRTfLcnJRqKXtHnLM2yN6yCxamvwP6yW4QhsDFdYSMlGHXh+GUOGx2i7h+5JlHPmns Tswm7oStdvRe5IWzOPhp2zSs+u4eX4kPbyJNAF2siTCCXocoBx9Mm5iIc3/Ls1TqkLI1TNUOa pu5zj17eVhoCLa7ZSKuns7xAGWUrR2oRAVCmirh3VMf9ozL5rDn8sGgVjCqtN4WJzW9qoEB02 DXam+qIm1r/+RZShqiyx0i5+7Auvh6gf0Wix1vsSJmszfKb49wmmNjCQ0canSf1ue8voSHd18 yfLX9cEcUChaXXz+lL8ek+JvbzxqKcipNoIAdPkR7mThLpca/WiHqRAOPVZdtLVVKgGZoeb+c BdH6vVjZmaZlx2hBXJgjX2y/CUxjlibmKYZGUdH2X1B+JSSF7JdOt7xRDwlnwHe8//3nI0/V+ 8I8VgDrbklbT2eDFDU/xEgQPhVGDji4BkcdVrpCzuLZywY2X7+OgwivOFReTyLCXoG17Tk9NN 8QpDARA X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hi Drew, I've read the docstring again. There are indeed many things left unclear. I think a prior version already had been clearer, though, much also more brief. > 2. Don't use ATOM unless you mean any atom, even if you explain > subsequently that you really mean a self-evaluating atom. The best part of the doc string is the "complete list of patterns". What is says is right: "ATOM can be a keyword, an integer, or a string". In particular, floats are excluded. nil and t are also excluded. "KEYWORD-OR-INTEGER-OR-STRING" is not a good name, however. > 3. The doc string (but not the Elisp manual, node `Pattern matching case > statement') refers to "the object" without ever specifying what it > is. This makes all of the specifications that use "the object" > meaningless: 'VAL, (pred FUN), and (app FUN PAT). > > The manual uses "the value being matched" instead, which is OK > (understandable). Yes, that's what I would prefer. > Still, it would be clearer to give a name to "the value being > matched" at the beginning: EXPVAL, for example, at the place where > you say, "based on the value of EXPRESSION". That's not necessarily true, however. For example, in (pcase .9 ((let (pred integerp) 1) t)) (which evals to t) "(pred integerp)" is matched against 1, not the original expression (which is ignored by the pattern in this case). > 5. Don't use "QPattern" and "UPattern". Use "Q pattern" and "U > pattern", or (probably better) "Q-pattern" and "U-pattern". I would rather like to get rid from these old names completely. > 6. This part of the description of `guard' is unclear, to me: > > For example ... and let-binds the variable 'x' to that number. > > I see nothing in the descriptions of `guard' and `and' that indicates > why `x' would be let-bound in this example. It's just the SYMBOL case: "SYMBOL matches anything and binds it to SYMBOL." And "(and PAT...) matches if all the patterns match." Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 22:36:55 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2018 02:36:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43316 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCygR-0000FN-Mi for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:36:55 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:55410) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCygP-0000F9-MD for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:36:54 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCygH-0001DC-IM for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:36:48 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:53025) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCygH-0001D6-F8; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:36:45 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4103 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fCygG-00078v-Kn; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:36:45 -0400 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:36:32 +0300 Message-Id: <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Michael Heerdegen In-reply-to: <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:05:55 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, 31311@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:05:55 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > There's nothing special about this feature that should present > > conceptual problems for documenting it well, any more than any other > > advanced feature of which we have dozens in the ELisp manual. > > >From the beginning people were divided about the usefulness and > conception of the thing, and people discussed exceptionally emotionally > and destructively. Irrelevant. We are talking about documentation, not about the feature itself. The concept of how such complex features should be documented is well established in Emacs, and we have a wealth of examples in the ELisp manual of how it should be and is done. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 29 22:47:21 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2018 02:47:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43322 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCyqW-0000Ts-MK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:47:20 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:46684) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fCyqU-0000Tg-TA for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:47:19 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w3U2koT5011313; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 02:47:12 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=0Q0x7hA/RWVblFHV/uNzj/Axap0AZTqlTExnRmTLkvw=; b=Zrmzlgyxj2VIOsJemLWnuGWAxH7Rp2NSU4YV6anxLMXbdoMO4FC32jRPPfj0dG5lqB2n acUMmRwlyxz5xHfhMVMwdGu/IUqzk3DaDmtoxVq00hExK7Oh55RmV5WQiaZ2sR9F4Tvq bWRC4brgAjNA2Qy2tD2fNTvJIrXlY12cf3GGLavSe/JHDB/IeIx0fLRnVGN113CYUoSy ZqsOFCikfzmrMaaVtV6p9gtyP7HTLGR5VLUBROgpj2u6hFJN50lNChmgRskqjhznjdrs 5sWTHRUXD59xTB6fvcbHXPKWtZZkM9dcV696QLOuBMOHaBnJ1ReTZv09yGhHmkcnhbxN ng== Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2hmhmfabmy-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 30 Apr 2018 02:47:12 +0000 Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w3U2lBW8025169 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 30 Apr 2018 02:47:12 GMT Received: from abhmp0001.oracle.com (abhmp0001.oracle.com [141.146.116.7]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w3U2lAta023451; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 02:47:11 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:47:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Michael Heerdegen Subject: RE: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <87vac9k04a.fsf@web.de> In-Reply-To: <87vac9k04a.fsf@web.de> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4678.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8878 signatures=668698 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804300026 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hi Michael, > I've read the docstring again. There are indeed many things left > unclear. I think a prior version already had been clearer, though, much > also more brief. If it was both clearer and more brief, let's consider resurrecting it. ;-) > > 2. Don't use ATOM unless you mean any atom, even if you explain > > subsequently that you really mean a self-evaluating atom. >=20 > The best part of the doc string is the "complete list of patterns". > What is says is right: "ATOM can be a keyword, an integer, or a string". > In particular, floats are excluded. nil and t are also excluded. > "KEYWORD-OR-INTEGER-OR-STRING" is not a good name, however. It may not be a good name, but it is not so misleading. And it's not used in a zillion places, so it's not a big deal if the name is long: INTEGER-STRING-OR-KEYWORD or even perhaps INTEGER|STRING|KEYWORD. We have much longer stuff in the description of font-lock stuff and elsewhere. Complex things need careful breakdowns and named parts. "Atom", without that qualification, includes lots of other things, including vectors and, in particular, symbols. Maybe it should say something about _why_ keywords, integers, and strings are allowed here, but not vectors (since strings are OK) or other numbers. What is it about those 3 types that make them special in this regard? Oh, and do the other two occurrences of ATOM - those in the description of Q-patterns - mean the same thing: keyword, string, or integer? Nothing said about that; not clear. A user really does seem better off, in the case of this feature, reading the source code and ignoring the doc. The doc confuses more than helps. It raises more questions that it answers, I think. > > 3. The doc string (but not the Elisp manual, node `Pattern matching > case > > statement') refers to "the object" without ever specifying what it > > is. This makes all of the specifications that use "the object" > > meaningless: 'VAL, (pred FUN), and (app FUN PAT). > > > > The manual uses "the value being matched" instead, which is OK > > (understandable). >=20 > Yes, that's what I would prefer. >=20 > > Still, it would be clearer to give a name to "the value being > > matched" at the beginning: EXPVAL, for example, at the place where > > you say, "based on the value of the expression". >=20 > That's not necessarily true, however. For example, in > (pcase .9 ((let (pred integerp) 1) t)) > (which evals to t) "(pred integerp)" is matched against 1, not the > original expression (which is ignored by the pattern in this case). Then such exceptions need to be pointed out. Just saying (over and over, BTW) "the value being matched", let alone "the object", does not make that clear. There is not a good, comprehensive presentation of just what _matching_ involves, it seems. And that's the _whole point_ of something like `pcase': what it's matching does; how it works. If a user can't get a good mental model of this feature from reading the doc then the doc hasn't done its job. The behavior of such a `let' pattern is not obvious, even with the mini-example presented. As a first approximation, and as the overall description and name, EXPVAL is OK, I think, as is "the value of EXPRESSION". The first paragraph makes it clear, even if it is not 100% true, that each PATTERN describes EXPRESSION's value in some sense (typically its structure). We have to have some basis for talking about the parts and pieces. Especially when things are complicated is it helpful or necessary to name things and be precise about which ones we're talking about. > > 5. Don't use "QPattern" and "UPattern". Use "Q pattern" and "U > > pattern", or (probably better) "Q-pattern" and "U-pattern". >=20 > I would rather like to get rid from these old names completely. OK. What new names would you propose? But I think I agree with you. Seems like just PATTERN would make sense where we use both QPATTERN and UPATTERN. The backquote char is anyway not part of a QPATTERN; it precedes it. Which points to another thing that's not clear: the description, under QPATTERN of ",UPATTERN": "Matches if the corresponding element of the value being matched matches the specified UPATTERN." Once again we're lost. What on earth is "the _corresponding element_ of the value being matched"? What are the elements of the value being matched, and how does one of them correspond to a ",UPATTERN"? > > 6. This part of the description of `guard' is unclear, to me: > > > > For example ... and let-binds the variable 'x' to that number. > > > > I see nothing in the descriptions of `guard' and `and' that > > indicates why `x' would be let-bound in this example. >=20 > It's just the SYMBOL case: "SYMBOL matches anything and binds it to > SYMBOL." And "(and PAT...) matches if all the patterns match." OK. So x is bound to the value of EXPRESSION, and the whole pattern matches if x is non-nil and < 10. Wouldn't it be better as something like this? (and x (guard (and (numberp x) (< x 10)))) The description says that (and x (guard (< x 10))) matches any number smaller than 10. But what happens if what x matches and is thus bound to is not a number at all? In fact, that's another thing that's unclear to me. What happens during "matching" that would normally raise an error? Matching involves some kind of comparison (even unification matching does). What happens when things that get compared during matching are incomparable? Then, the following sentence seems not always to hold or, rather, it seems meaningless. How can an _occurrence_ of a symbol become an eq test? "If a SYMBOL is used twice in the same pattern the second occurrence becomes an 'eq'uality test." That doc-string statement is missing from the manual, AFAICT. What is it really trying to say? Where's the eq test in this: (and x (guard (< x 10)))? I almost feel like the more closely I read this doc the less clear it gets. I'm serious when I say that it seems like a blog about using `pcase' would be helpful. But that wouldn't obviate coming up with clear and complete doc for the manual, and clear doc for the doc string. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 30 07:20:33 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2018 11:20:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43473 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fD6rA-0006Co-TU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:20:33 -0400 Received: from mail-qk0-f170.google.com ([209.85.220.170]:42383) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fD6r8-0006CY-M1 for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:20:31 -0400 Received: by mail-qk0-f170.google.com with SMTP id j10so6313141qke.9 for <31311@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 04:20:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=AcJwWxJptg7eugOpy/mIVWBi8BpZidstuWZoCDk4pP8=; b=X1njyQfNmsB3m2ZLq4Z3xTVN73anNY8RnJ3C78c0hzpsR3Fjf3maUoBryPYmSIZoiE p8iKvyy3pSJyZeao5hqNLXxqu8MEqwCAYyCX30ON7q5bjlWmPwZtm4VOHlmMR5VVRGGG uHHxkA7eDkEkTj9kIJgbXPsNsTZ2IxqseE1zSKQZslPqF6vyXQ6R7DfELXO9Se1DZ9C8 iQlcaieUnJxK1+EK0sV5SiD9oT8HDnd9gxPy+jU1vxQaPqSsDVethwrGdTCODlj1AGMD YIRxrpMUxG0Z/vVq8QeSJmb8n9KARl2Xow9yJiyZHiHCaimUUqsRfjjmd9AVL5hPsBSF WEsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=AcJwWxJptg7eugOpy/mIVWBi8BpZidstuWZoCDk4pP8=; b=kfPYufgHOn9ccVcTXGnG0fnsvoXotZoZBCuZ4CT/rqqacHFa31nkyUPo8gYYXRZ2b2 MdTVdTfMArLsHxwmGrWcHqyv2X5tmJLOKYUAuUN9cVyRrUqtfrJsk2iPiIw7DWdZDbC3 YCnANBcouLiksugksETK4f1MyXRC3QQkKbLbTLFV8D8LFijuScnzAWzMR7s3dIonuwBQ bWiEge7PP3G1HG7JuW8U8L0P2H+1+eTU7RuSBpYJy04q9s16a8FTmdd6kyR7bAHjdwwW mD6Hl7ChwkjaxF7r79S7wKmxyU1QvRNApAvFmobNJa3XoZ2VjPS2xgdswI1rFGCE7O6Y dwyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDIVdmalyCRxoQ8Dmlfn1V1zuerbgVV1FXuY9bPO8/629HMMBhK HWr6GRm5xAFjNl6bN0zmVlY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZqke2hiILx4fgbKZqO8l+3om9IzodLDtLddHziADUeZNzM20olBWtQGTcPFU7l0WhjTVsDUNg== X-Received: by 10.55.26.41 with SMTP id a41mr9854647qka.401.1525087225181; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 04:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zebian (cbl-45-2-119-34.yyz.frontiernetworks.ca. [45.2.119.34]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id i99sm500751qkh.35.2018.04.30.04.20.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Mon, 30 Apr 2018 04:20:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Noam Postavsky To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:20:23 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:36:32 +0300") Message-ID: <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , drew.adams@oracle.com, 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Michael Heerdegen >> Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, 31311@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 22:05:55 +0200 >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> > There's nothing special about this feature that should present >> > conceptual problems for documenting it well, any more than any other >> > advanced feature of which we have dozens in the ELisp manual. >> >> From the beginning people were divided about the usefulness and >> conception of the thing, and people discussed exceptionally emotionally >> and destructively. > > Irrelevant. We are talking about documentation, not about the feature > itself. The concept of how such complex features should be documented > is well established in Emacs, and we have a wealth of examples in the > ELisp manual of how it should be and is done. It's relevant if potential contributors turn away/tune out/ignore the whole thing due to the unpleasant discussion. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 30 08:37:14 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2018 12:37:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43522 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fD83O-0001Xn-3Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 08:37:14 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:40348) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fD83M-0001XY-2F for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 08:37:12 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fD83L-0008BC-CO; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 08:37:11 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fD3Xs-00025h-NZ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 09:48:24 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <87vac9k04a.fsf@web.de> Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 09:48:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:47:08 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87k1sp5e4g.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Drew Adams () Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:47:08 -0700 (PDT) > > 2. Don't use ATOM [...] >=20 > "ATOM can be a keyword, an integer, or a string". In > particular, floats are excluded. nil and t are also > excluded. "KEYWORD-OR-INTEGER-OR-STRING" is not a good > name, however. It may not be a good name, but it is not so misleading. And it's not used in a zillion places, so it's not a big deal if the name is long: INTEGER-STRING-OR-KEYWORD or even perhaps INTEGER|STRING|KEYWORD. We have much longer stuff in the description of font-lock stuff and elsewhere. Complex things need careful breakdowns and named parts. "Atom", without that qualification, includes lots of other things, including vectors and, in particular, symbols. Since "atom" is a shorthand for this set of types in an @item context, another solution is to list the types explicitly: @item @var{integer} @itemx @var{string} @itemx @var{keyword} These types are self-quoting [...] In this way, we achieve grouping through presentation and not through coining (possibly confusing) terms. This makes the text longer vertically, but flattens the conceptual model (for this particular grouping of types) for the reader, who can mentally coin terms on their own, like "!@#$%-complicated-sh*t". :-D Oh, and do the other two occurrences of ATOM - those in the description of Q-patterns - mean the same thing: keyword, string, or integer? Nothing said about that; not clear. Same technique applicable, here. Generally, it's good to use abstractions in code (DRY principle), but for documentation, a flatter landscape w/ simple landmarks is easier to navigate. This is one of the sadnesses i have come to realize as a programmer trying to communicate w/ non-programmers. =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) (pcase (context query) (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlrmykIACgkQZwMiJEyAdQLnvwCghFHbXsr69DKopuVv+qEzezpV 5N4AniOHKHhfGeDsiC0h5LeooC7i0nGk =nhV1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 30 10:29:17 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2018 14:29:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44127 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fD9np-0006IX-DR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:29:17 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:58702) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fD9no-0006IM-1c for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:29:16 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fD9nf-0002c2-SP for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:29:10 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:36369) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fD9nY-0002Zv-Fh; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:29:00 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3956 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fD9nX-0004Z9-Ql; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:29:00 -0400 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 17:28:48 +0300 Message-Id: <83h8nssr8f.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Noam Postavsky In-reply-to: <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> (message from Noam Postavsky on Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:20:23 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, drew.adams@oracle.com, 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > From: Noam Postavsky > Cc: Michael Heerdegen , 31311@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com > Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:20:23 -0400 > > It's relevant if potential contributors turn away/tune out/ignore > the whole thing due to the unpleasant discussion. Right. QED. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 30 12:51:26 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2018 16:51:26 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44174 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fDC1O-00014Y-D1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:51:26 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:41489) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fDC1N-00014R-DL for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:51:25 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fDC1M-0000Wz-MO; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:51:24 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fD8y8-0002kd-Sw; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:35:52 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: Noam Postavsky Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:35:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> (Noam Postavsky's message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:20:23 -0400") Message-ID: <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Noam Postavsky () Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:20:23 -0400 It's relevant if potential contributors turn away/tune out/ignore the whole thing due to the unpleasant discussion. No worries from my part. Unpleasant discussion is better than no discussion, IMHO. Anyway, to start transforming discussion energy (pleasant or otherwise) into repo commits, i've just pushed branch =E2=80=98fix/bug-31311-pcase-doc=E2=80=99, w/ these commits: 4ad382d 2018-04-30 add blank line before each @item in @table 8fccdaa 2018-04-30 rewrite @item @var{atom} afb5aa4 2018-04-30 move UPattern and QPattern tables outside of @defmac pc= ase 0fa3538 2018-04-30 add blank line before each @item in @table Don't worry about the informal tone; i intend to eventually squash this branch to a (single) commit, and normalize the commit message to Emacs standards, etc. In the meantime, i invite people to push freely to it. Many of the suggestions i've seen in this thread have merit at first blush. Let's try to realize them (or rationale alternatives), together, and see how the concrete result stands. In this way, we do a kind of "git rebase changes discussion", hopefully improve the discussion (too!), and most importantly, take forward action on this important (i'm a big fan of =E2=80=98pcase=E2=80=99) task. "But ttn, you sound like one of those manglement types!" Yes, but hopefully i act better than most of them out there, by doing and encouraging others to do. =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) (pcase (context query) (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlrnG7AACgkQZwMiJEyAdQJnIACgnNNZJa3rWywFlHeossBdxRuC 13cAoMnnvgnXs+267QLUan1DHg9KWeaQ =M7vR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 30 12:59:03 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2018 16:59:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44178 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fDC8l-0001F9-6x for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:59:03 -0400 Received: from aserp2130.oracle.com ([141.146.126.79]:47540) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fDC8h-0001Ee-UB for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:59:00 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w3UGudF8114915; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:58:52 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=8hPM0NzAXwf/VD93qI/cbLjUlEUbVsiX0Xru5jT/rn8=; b=je7znxrGU3mypak0a/6ppkBwejMtZR8ZgBm1Z9Pbq95HRJ68UhgWTtar4LowgZcsAlho ZM/y7TiP3QnKiI3nhgLJFlLgKPOc0NXKq8qJ+VBDFd5EKrnXhuC3y2QHiXgDqw3ET8ST IkulNd/25NaOYed2p5Foqjv2vkjHflTOhXOjs9Hroh8Udo8/tUbExk4CCFPrLBlNFvnC 6Dpv98h/pWGhvcnKTsygnAR//PM+7fIl4atYLrVZxWml7jlaB64GsAyh1nmqXGz1j1P2 OnKjXW+yjrImlqHlwEAkbc2kqsN+xPZlDg569rnJ/cwSAddKZh+YutlRcaHDoq3Nwd5I Xg== Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2hmeg5n2vk-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:58:52 +0000 Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w3UGwoUU000932 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:58:51 GMT Received: from abhmp0014.oracle.com (abhmp0014.oracle.com [141.146.116.20]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w3UGwnVd026968; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:58:50 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 09:58:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Thien-Thi Nguyen , Noam Postavsky Subject: RE: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> In-Reply-To: <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4678.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8879 signatures=668698 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=477 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804300163 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Thanks for working on this, ttn. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 30 14:04:22 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2018 18:04:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44214 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fDD9y-0004lV-Ll for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 14:04:22 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:59707) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fDD9w-0004lG-KG for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 14:04:21 -0400 Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.217.119.40]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb002 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M1WtV-1eOOt226Nl-00tR8y; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 20:04:13 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Thien-Thi Nguyen Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 20:04:12 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> (Thien-Thi Nguyen's message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:35:32 +0200") Message-ID: <874ljso9k3.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:B34itJ/60C76EBEFHTDi+DxBEFgCAJLmagl1j929oRYDBQ1eY6y SDz2reECp6WMVaHpQS4ZEsUmCBM3+pdg06eOJFoHNVXaKPeaVDl3KIFhhYpygaMoHqUP+t4 gJZn4Xr7Zm7l0GMI8iV8WDdumEBnYUjDaT1wX/dSYvTzZeWwr6MBZBQG3o40zP/fxOQVsVn apoXkFPzsZo/l8Aq2eXsA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:pLxpD6TO6ds=:PVWCyUF4TTQsUj6AS/J4WO VF2smL4Yj1dC5WE3hoGwhOJ8vMTXLJI+rE0hy+z+bYDcCdrB3hkH1uzpci4wQ6SHIibSv6ei8 y6Q3IB2+WhaQNHPUuH7pocI+2w2z63QEKFbpNa7IoJV7RrT02wsmk8wMfBoBOgBEZ2JZFwpG0 AA4WghUoIjd5bq+CF3QSpRmpgTPQInh9Fv0RSfpY7MdCYD8wSBQvKpG9U7u4AFNouITrOP2L3 9h/Kas4LjXrj8BN1bSXIqfEWOHQYmRuSmQmjnCgDGlj02K1PSxpDqzAlEiTzSuXtPGhPjRqMp TZm/sUtqGUq2ReHzeFanrv6ifZ+7PLFjtuu54SV5979/iqMk9kgK9FWN9OMSGjyXDbQ4NGVaw LzOBmJdMD8RCS8Dc3vChnVdt7bWiCpMp0smI0bE/jj0f5cRscAQFr7pydQgb+ystV1Kdzhahg 4jwhygkNfKXPkGst2WPYre9Y1Yi2/YgRrObLitM7crAe+MVCa9Q6OD/e8oD8moo9t335B8/lO 4SxkQC60Qzp/QwYC4ZoIbwBQbwgo257MCxkAqc8W6wLgeKvKHOkE8qzaEWRzyhiUhVzviUrt1 lYPuwwlCNMB1XZ9gCSBkUAQ2T7UEpTTElV5HtXy7WZiXZAAmGdsHPucYPEHHgXT0N4P/19/p7 cuS/0RE+QrFoDpdHyMhmY/ZGT4tKsssJsYh+K4ti95X/4ccP9NzZMC3VJhiQQ9cW+WQvLW6iu en0x4aqAx1Rd8AKafejEeWTgd77FweehrXBRJG7ALz/NMNSNHXGYwtpcQIXZV+IGA0OG2aUst 6rpHDvL X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Noam Postavsky , 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Thien-Thi Nguyen writes: > 4ad382d 2018-04-30 add blank line before each @item in @table > 8fccdaa 2018-04-30 rewrite @item @var{atom} > afb5aa4 2018-04-30 move UPattern and QPattern tables outside of @defmac pcase > 0fa3538 2018-04-30 add blank line before each @item in @table Thanks for the initiative. One comment: +@item @var{keyword} +@itemx @var{number} +@itemx @var{string} +Matches if the value is @code{equal} to the literal. +This is a special case of @code{'@var{val}}, above, +possible because these types are self-quoting. Not all numbers are allowed; only integers - for example (pcase .9 (.9 t)) |-- Unknown pattern `0.9' See the definition of `pcase--self-quoting-p', it's intentional. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 30 15:31:59 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2018 19:31:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44241 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fDEWl-0006nK-0G for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:31:59 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:48694) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fDEWj-0006n9-Q7 for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:31:58 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fDEWZ-0000ZA-SJ for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:31:52 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:40909) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fDEWO-0000Pt-Vb; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:31:37 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1843 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fDEWM-0002ZW-2J; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:31:36 -0400 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 22:31:14 +0300 Message-Id: <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Thien-Thi Nguyen In-reply-to: <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> (message from Thien-Thi Nguyen on Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:35:32 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: npostavs@gmail.com, 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > From: Thien-Thi Nguyen > Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:35:32 +0200 > Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org > > Anyway, to start transforming discussion energy (pleasant or > otherwise) into repo commits, i've just pushed branch > ‘fix/bug-31311-pcase-doc’, w/ these commits: > > 4ad382d 2018-04-30 add blank line before each @item in @table > 8fccdaa 2018-04-30 rewrite @item @var{atom} > afb5aa4 2018-04-30 move UPattern and QPattern tables outside of @defmac pcase > 0fa3538 2018-04-30 add blank line before each @item in @table Thanks! From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 01 05:39:27 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 May 2018 09:39:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44695 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fDRkt-0003Zn-Kp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 May 2018 05:39:27 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:48003) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fDRkr-0003Zf-Iz for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 May 2018 05:39:25 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fDRkr-0008RX-29; Tue, 01 May 2018 05:39:25 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fDRmg-0003p9-KT; Tue, 01 May 2018 11:41:18 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: Michael Heerdegen Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874ljso9k3.fsf@web.de> Date: Tue, 01 May 2018 11:41:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: <874ljso9k3.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2018 20:04:12 +0200") Message-ID: <87bmdz67d6.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: () Michael Heerdegen () Mon, 30 Apr 2018 20:04:12 +0200 Not all numbers are allowed; only integers - for example (pcase .9 (.9 t)) [...] Content analysis details: (1.2 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.2 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [67.59.132.6 listed in list.dnswl.org] 1.0 HEXHASH_WORD Multiple instances of word + hexadecimal hash X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Michael Heerdegen () Mon, 30 Apr 2018 20:04:12 +0200 Not all numbers are allowed; only integers - for example (pcase .9 (.9 t)) |-- Unknown pattern `0.9' [...] `pcase--self-quoting-p', it's intentional. Thanks. I've made the change. Doing so, i realized i've already foolishly goofed by branching off of =E2=80=98master=E2=80=99 inste= ad of =E2=80=98emacs-26=E2=80=99. So, apologies for the confusion to anyone who = might have already pulled =E2=80=98fix/bug-31311-pcase-doc=E2=80=99. I've deleted that branch and recreated it, this time from =E2=80=98emacs-26=E2=80=99. H= ere are the current list of commits: 46d58247f1 add blank line before each @item in @table 32eee97a74 rewrite @item @var{atom} f870e5e766 move UPattern and QPattern tables outside of @defmac pcase 702131a8b2 add blank line before each @item in @table 892995705f explode first =E2=80=98@def pcase=E2=80=99 para e8dd2a7724 s/number/integer/ per feedback from Michael Heerdegen <874ljso= 9k3.fsf@web.de> Note that commit 892995705f includes some stylized comments. I invite interested people to include discussion of those in this thread. =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) (pcase (context query) (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlroNjcACgkQZwMiJEyAdQLSQwCfcBRyc35ZtWUcKHIQexabnavX z/YAn3NOcyagjYXm3fed6qDe2SwG1S4n =wgih -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 12 07:22:39 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2018 11:22:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58984 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fHSbm-0001SB-S4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 May 2018 07:22:39 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:38330) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fHSbl-0001S4-Nw for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 May 2018 07:22:37 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fHSbl-00087c-6V; Sat, 12 May 2018 07:22:37 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fHSYM-0007pC-TZ; Sat, 12 May 2018 13:19:07 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> Mail-Followup-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 13:18:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2018 22:31:14 +0300") Message-ID: <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Eli Zaretskii () Mon, 30 Apr 2018 22:31:14 +0300 Thanks! Trundling along, so far so good. I wish to call attention to (i.e., explicitly request input for) these two recent commits: * c6e9b975f add some Issue comments; nfc This first set of ponderables revolves around the precise semantics of the SYMBOL let-binding feature. * b93c07ef0 (docstring) add inline Issue re sub-patterns of structural pat= terns This is a writing question, mostly, i think. Additionally, related to SYMBOL binding, i see (in *scratch*): a. (pcase t ('t 'true)) =3D> true b. (pcase nil ('nil 'false)) =3D> false c. (pcase t (t 'true)) =3D> true d. (pcase nil (nil 'false)) |=3D ERROR: Unknown pattern =E2=80=98nil=E2= =80=99 and wonder if/how to approach this corner case in the docs. I suppose before anything, i'd like to confirm that c. and d. are correct and intended (i believe a. and b. to be correct and intended, but maybe i'm missing something there, too!). For anyone just joining, these commits are on the branch =E2=80=98fix/bug-31311-pcase-doc=E2=80=99 (off of =E2=80=98emacs-26=E2=80= =99). Feedback on anything there is most welcome! =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) (pcase (context query) (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlr2zaMACgkQZwMiJEyAdQJarwCdG8o9N3A+Jy0iBhF7nRYKO5Z/ tbEAn2UqXRNOAsHFkEW9ZOIE0Dq935TC =wIsr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 12 09:54:27 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2018 13:54:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59025 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fHUyh-0006lY-FX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 May 2018 09:54:27 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:53637) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fHUyf-0006lM-Kl for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 May 2018 09:54:26 -0400 Received: from drachen.dragon ([188.110.196.170]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb004 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MKNl8-1fFqof0Myc-001jup; Sat, 12 May 2018 15:54:19 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 15:54:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> (Thien-Thi Nguyen's message of "Sat, 12 May 2018 13:18:47 +0200") Message-ID: <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:snzk9O5fcGkGO7cxvpZ2/o9eEqVY46HZnEj3/l+fcX7k7OMnXVw oOxnaZY00HEwC3vHNXMXmLg5g/2CfxVdrs7suvURhcHgZrJ+5o3ts0Wezqh8HVLcpLVOJ5m ZrxFQ9LfxTzZFpDzmZ4kuY0swqZrvBNoKFSE9aEarhIgt65Q0HtYG0mEH3OacKO3k6xMNVV aIarsoFaeR/AgB3Aol7Dg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:Xs3Eabp5+QE=:Q68jw8MuOBLJls2UO8DO+F otwMUgQ5ZeSFrqwA7CiXboBgNyurMh1F61mnUort8t5JfDSPosbFRrz4tEST871z6TfFxLiKu cw3MOeXiY1SbuuyHmOLO2XmCHmKlWyeuAaFXSTefjAPhZMgLPqNpGKgtwfwup2dglf7BTKxeN 4oUqAzZ3iLXR2BghCwh4xCu3fvVvOh4rvyArmrIU+eQeDR7wdyEzI8OKDwNo5OuS4CGMTyIPl aahkMugsRjYIbSQLzWBgCOS8qeB2vIgsNd31m2Hi7kn3rndJD+eVT7gL9WKd5gt4RymUQdKkp p9CL4AeLfrjKgDFyTLb4D9SBW8fTQgULVUVr0F1Jfhx5u0WgblZPgZlhL4Pyklab8gOm2GZ1+ 4/Re92i/cSvqAAhRhYeo9/5THIJ+hAuWkd11irNdEml+9ZQUCsvKIAazyQ6rqNzzjqggAoz3k InuBE0ujmos0BZelj2Nd5FCKQwCOQJjHIZUfAOvJbTaiGQeK6p10/M0iSc4/PHFRqUuii8hqH G+m8Ojm/HaySK6answzbvPtNQTDDJxVzqZakOKPgFX6xZ+77YY8kCmD5Nxg23cwQhJ/eaphSN HE6IWxKuzNl3DnOmRtAhbtXhuQkQ6MFi74u5dP928lPS2634Lzu7FJoqXewDgb4/BQuVuiC+W 0z0Zvk8lDdltMOcgTPNkZf63RH24JgbUFqtY1lzjoLXpi5Dwctw5BQsqSehjTMwNLqgKjt4ZB gZzDWRiFdRQsM9WQPSBZMpo0u8MOBvWB0ZgyxHuTUGtK8+EfUuslkKYQQh9wl34bd2wGqkgec zr17NEr X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Thien-Thi Nguyen writes: > a. (pcase t ('t 'true)) =3D> true > b. (pcase nil ('nil 'false)) =3D> false > c. (pcase t (t 'true)) =3D> true > d. (pcase nil (nil 'false)) |=3D ERROR: Unknown pattern =E2=80=98nil= =E2=80=99 > > and wonder if/how to approach this corner case in the docs. I > suppose before anything, i'd like to confirm that c. and d. are > correct and intended (i believe a. and b. to be correct and > intended, but maybe i'm missing something there, too!). That's all correct and intended - see 3ef31167. t was originally intended as catchall pattern equivalent to _ but has been deprecated (since it was confusing). Try e.g. (pcase nil (t t)) You get a message when you use it, but when evaluating and not when compiling (so you must look in the *Messages* buffer - I don't think this is intended...). A catch-nothing pattern is not useful, so nil is just invalid. I once asked Stefan if t and nil could be handled like the ATOM case, but he didn't want to do this (backward compatibility, don't recall). Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 12 09:56:31 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 May 2018 13:56:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59689 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fHV0g-0006yF-SB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 May 2018 09:56:31 -0400 Received: from mail-it0-f54.google.com ([209.85.214.54]:54376) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fHV0e-0006y1-UY for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 May 2018 09:56:29 -0400 Received: by mail-it0-f54.google.com with SMTP id z6-v6so5237408iti.4 for <31311@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 12 May 2018 06:56:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=plITm4BnsDbDKZE1myzraVfo7FJzoahk3/yDGPkDizw=; b=jh7r0omurcTgMpxVm3cHYOg2YI9wGgwhbxOZgxJ1374ockATHApp+23o8Yep4iLAvy 33WTxCp5l8ENVBDtrM/mT2dAXbIistnQ+Eng9SwCNdzdODypD92JjXPqv8RH9kxiCPL+ V7tlM6PWzKtbpU4FOjcjzmWRJHPICwRRQDZJfrIjTpKYak/10+Kn87PCszmAGvmUDsxv 7It323aOJX0nbgEA0JNBqNYxwwdTr+6Pb+NHElEUYnfcLFYDlG8uMx5DCGyNsAd3BPid Te9sqdkmQt3ctbfdS/BxEcs25xkdUSrPqTPqikGKNYokIul87UN66IWBCjMqjqJrTBow CDvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=plITm4BnsDbDKZE1myzraVfo7FJzoahk3/yDGPkDizw=; b=sTGHQegYry5rGYTOAW0YW4jC8f9XM4X20qeEyoQ1dulaK7rzxUbJ5E3lBlqRHihcko 2ymQot+tqPJxL4pJnF5bdPX5/TVVxMEzuigMa8Jw1nNJvL5pCHM+nvvhJeQvFQCWZ1iP 2/swHGRCnkCBUGB1vkSEAnE1kinaLDzrENyruknktCnlr+KVkd5R0/EvEuGq2PbMNYGx 5WEFqaJe+gmxPrbNxw95uk5EVF+JGARJRfqrmtgqJkZtzVq9AyHrDweuNgE+sscLmx2X gP4/qoABhX9hyNkwsBW5421Hg39cGn9c1ll8BSv3RV3rwjET8gEIoRKmxzIDVja9M70C H9KA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwc0oXQGi9Vv5kpHpnPZeLq4ZW4Rk5a6WNIr3USWax4l95Y63IlW Wpv1rN6Y5SkSfVkSQ0awN/+dbg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZrV28Qj5PzPPrEYHRFZn4tjrupjI2MnIIIV4YG1q3WOQhMb10amKHx+04yFv7jYAm24y8sVDQ== X-Received: by 2002:a24:19c9:: with SMTP id b192-v6mr2373088itb.78.1526133383000; Sat, 12 May 2018 06:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zebian (cbl-45-2-119-34.yyz.frontiernetworks.ca. [45.2.119.34]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id m89-v6sm2646788iod.1.2018.05.12.06.56.22 for <31311@debbugs.gnu.org> (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sat, 12 May 2018 06:56:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Noam Postavsky To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 09:56:21 -0400 In-Reply-To: <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> (Thien-Thi Nguyen's message of "Sat, 12 May 2018 13:18:47 +0200") Message-ID: <877eo9kmey.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Thien-Thi Nguyen writes: > * c6e9b975f add some Issue comments; nfc > > This first set of ponderables revolves around the precise > semantics of the SYMBOL let-binding feature. > +@c - This is a design decision. Document the limitation > +@c (i.e., BOOLEAN-EXPRESSION SHOULD NOT be side-effecting). > +@c - This is an unforseen case; behavior is based on the > +@c implementation (=E2=80=98cond=E2=80=99 + redundant =E2=80=98= let*=E2=80=99 expansion) > +@c and is considered {undefined, wontfix, futurefix}. > +@c Leave undocumented for now. I would say the behaviour of pcase when guard expressions have side-effects is not defined, so the documentation should advise against having side-effects in guard expressions. By the way, the current implementation causes a compiler warning if the variable is not used in the body (Bug#16771), so it may well be changed if someone can figure out how. > Additionally, related to SYMBOL binding, i see (in *scratch*): > > a. (pcase t ('t 'true)) =3D> true > b. (pcase nil ('nil 'false)) =3D> false > c. (pcase t (t 'true)) =3D> true Yes, it looks like t is intentionally equivalent to _, cf pcase.el: (defconst pcase--dontcare-upats '(t _ pcase--dontcare)) Hence also: (pcase 42 (t 'true)) =3D> true > d. (pcase nil (nil 'false)) |=3D ERROR: Unknown pattern =E2=80=98nil= =E2=80=99 In Emacs 24.5, it gives "Lisp error: (setting-constant nil)", so we can see that this case now gives a more specific error. > For anyone just joining, these commits are on the branch > =E2=80=98fix/bug-31311-pcase-doc=E2=80=99 (off of =E2=80=98emacs-26=E2=80= =99). Feedback on > anything there is most welcome! In the docstring, you have The two catagories of patterns are logical and structural. A logical pattern expands, in essence, to a predicate function to call on EXPVAL. [...] On the other hand, a structural pattern specifies a template, and allows for elements of that template to be either constants or sub-patterns (of either category). You grouped SYMBOL into the "logical patterns", but I don't think it really fits into either of those. Better to make it separate, perhaps? I'm also not so sure it's a useful division. At least, they shouldn't be presented as equal categories. The "structural" is more a short form for particular kinds of "logical" patterns. For example, `(1 . 2) is equivalent to (and (pred consp) (app car 1) (app cdr 2)) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 15 10:34:46 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 May 2018 14:34:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35863 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fIb2M-0003Np-NZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 May 2018 10:34:46 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:53974) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fIb2L-0003Ng-JB for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 May 2018 10:34:45 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fIb2K-0000jV-Um; Tue, 15 May 2018 10:34:45 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fIb4t-0000eH-Rx; Tue, 15 May 2018 16:37:23 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmey.fsf@gmail.com> Mail-Followup-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 16:37:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: <877eo9kmey.fsf@gmail.com> (Noam Postavsky's message of "Sat, 12 May 2018 09:56:21 -0400") Message-ID: <87tvr956jo.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Noam Postavsky X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Noam Postavsky () Sat, 12 May 2018 09:56:21 -0400 I would say the behaviour of pcase when guard expressions have side-effects is not defined, so the documentation should advise against having side-effects in guard expressions. I've done this (commit 977bd10f5e70) and extended the advice to other places where evaluation occurs. [=E2=80=98t=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99 as SYMBOL patterns] Thanks for confirming. I've addressed this in another post. > For anyone just joining, these commits are on the branch > =E2=80=98fix/bug-31311-pcase-doc=E2=80=99 (off of =E2=80=98emacs-26=E2= =80=99). Feedback on > anything there is most welcome! In the docstring, you have [...] two catagories [...] logical and structural. You grouped SYMBOL into the "logical patterns", but I don't think it really fits into either of those. Better to make it separate, perhaps? In the end, reverted this distinction, moved `QPAT material to the =E2=80=98(pcase-defmacro \` (qpat) ...)=E2=80=99 form, and added a comm= ent in =E2=80=98pcase--make-docstring=E2=80=99 proposing somehow to arrange for `QPAT docstring to be presented immediately after =E2=80=98pcase=E2=80=99. = More on this in a post to emacs-devel (which is still queued for delivery on my side at this moment...). I'm also not so sure it's a useful division. At least, they shouldn't be presented as equal categories. The "structural" is more a short form for particular kinds of "logical" patterns. For example, `(1 . 2) is equivalent to (and (pred consp) (app car 1) (app cdr 2)) True. However, i'm trying to avoid using `QPAT in either docstrings or examples prior to its introduction (including table of possible QPAT forms). Kind of an informational layering. This snippet was very useful, anyway; i adapted and expanded on it for the example illustrating "2nd SYMBOL becomes =E2=80=98eq=E2=80=99 test". Thanks for posting it. =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) (pcase (context query) (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlr68J0ACgkQZwMiJEyAdQLrOQCgoVpQ6LVtDNTOanPS4T9eQ1N9 YRIAoI1UjlKAWJAZqSE3Ov4iJ8+m2QFJ =FEBP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 15 10:34:50 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 May 2018 14:34:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35865 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fIb2P-0003O4-V7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 May 2018 10:34:50 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:53977) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fIb2M-0003No-KB for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 May 2018 10:34:46 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fIb2K-0000jT-T7; Tue, 15 May 2018 10:34:45 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fIasp-0000dr-Gg; Tue, 15 May 2018 16:24:55 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> Mail-Followup-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 16:24:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Sat, 12 May 2018 15:54:18 +0200") Message-ID: <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Michael Heerdegen X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Michael Heerdegen () Sat, 12 May 2018 15:54:18 +0200 > a. (pcase t ('t 'true)) =3D> true > b. (pcase nil ('nil 'false)) =3D> false > c. (pcase t (t 'true)) =3D> true > d. (pcase nil (nil 'false)) |=3D ERROR: Unknown pattern =E2=80=98n= il=E2=80=99 That's all correct and intended - see 3ef31167. t was originally intended as catchall pattern equivalent to _ but has been deprecated (since it was confusing). Try e.g. (pcase nil (t t)) You get a message when you use it, but when evaluating and not when compiling (so you must look in the *Messages* buffer - I don't think this is intended...). A catch-nothing pattern is not useful, so nil is just invalid. Thanks. I've added a blurb suggesting to avoid both =E2=80=98t=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99 (commit 5fc0f24c). Here's the text: Two symbols to avoid are @code{t}, which behaves like @code{_} (above) and is deprecated, and @code{nil}, which signals error. It makes no sense to bind these (@pxref{Constant Variables}). This is in the table, part of the @var{symbol} entry. =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) (pcase (context query) (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlr67bAACgkQZwMiJEyAdQISTQCg201f3YyyMtob9mpszxpOKQK+ yKYAniUmDQLA32t6Vpj9K1EsVCw7pJVw =YIfR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue May 15 11:16:10 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 May 2018 15:16:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35882 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fIbgQ-0004L1-9l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 May 2018 11:16:10 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:33419) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fIbgO-0004Kf-II for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 May 2018 11:16:09 -0400 Received: from drachen.dragon ([188.110.196.170]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb002 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LdmgV-1eaAB04AJ1-00j5SD; Tue, 15 May 2018 17:16:02 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 17:16:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> (Thien-Thi Nguyen's message of "Tue, 15 May 2018 16:24:44 +0200") Message-ID: <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Wocm3cGuV3bwLUVrQcL1ILUy8DdRSpYE9TrmYtrt4ezKWQrErI3 ZxK5f83EfpmPy0OI0Li43rixvOlh1MXtQ9V6aHTV8pcuJVW+5XZhekNnD6sNKdtpMT+u86c DXiGWwEzxwc9PyMtFEM4oUbfG88Q97VlQnO+43IfAa6FCwknpCOdsbJ1H/ZWi1/HxQZqIbx M2FdJtlJXC2OIFeef5RrQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:gT+CKhdqBAY=:CVXiEfOMPOVwRNjtqiNLNO XsHpc9rBFL8FsmqKqhOjhVMHc5UceVsRBaHY9oWu61owZlNtQhI/VD72fZVkFjK104oZCOoyF T5xFPFqLnLpjIVz86pLSbvqtfRvWrTY66BjcCMm9sjL6Ly8Lo4jSl8gL1wS7tTx855oLBTcyx rPPyF34bq4nOScw+zMI3H9p+d+guy5E7Pusqa0JqQyojzrV77v1ko9sI9WIKY8yaKv5WId2+z ueQrmxcBqcD93aPfyx1EF0xVCywSMIvpZmnPczkqqMC3+QevbT83zIPcP7d1B8Czl62IZLYh0 q3Yh1mEMgysvqOwwpewyBxnYPJruqcQYH+UU0CnZ9UsTJ//OpKKFiLll1iLEbU2RhrDUJSJQU Wf+MSA60lEMOeZR0H5oFv2yO+RwUSb1quidDZLIZF5P/k3ytiPJWK4dBLTi1UIy3KCVM5Smn6 /7E/fU/4n59tpoNRYZHi1NUydhDM3qxRDkCrAPgvcjF+lMHkx2ONicZEnrronx5wIjtsTBzzO ICwWu9Z7YLY7+AEvA0FpD8iXYf0MBoXvD1RhcTOaPVxH2EhPkffTcBRnXlUg701dA12tPAKwU X5eulbehYpS3+XNeBdyLN6wmiBbnie+XKai60CWAWsBgi3iWxodI9b8b+23q7CrEtUo3ydLzJ AoQOU/ghBMz5Mq3WzIC0S9rsoOvuaFQdtq7xzSENrfqnGsecFrcO8zv13J80MoMCxjpeVYhyx eNFmPUWaLu7zYR72gFb5vNvydOfAvjDtl8mx7ejWnt2gERiiei3qcxWiekrSikRvsZk7+wzps FJelX/2 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Thien-Thi Nguyen writes: > Thanks. I've added a blurb suggesting to avoid both =E2=80=98t=E2=80=99 = and > =E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99 (commit 5fc0f24c). Here's the text: > > Two symbols to avoid are @code{t}, which behaves like @code{_} > (above) and is deprecated, and @code{nil}, which signals error. > It makes no sense to bind these (@pxref{Constant Variables}). BTW, keywords are another case - it might be obvious that trying to bind these symbols might not be a good idea, but it should be told for completeness. Maybe we should move the ATOM case in the pattern list of the pcase docstring before the SYMBOL case? IMO the listing should be in an order so that the first fitting explanation is valid. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 16 06:47:36 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 May 2018 10:47:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36429 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fIty4-0005zY-0Y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 May 2018 06:47:36 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:59103) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fIty3-0005zQ-4A for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 May 2018 06:47:35 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fIty2-0001FY-Cw; Wed, 16 May 2018 06:47:34 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fItuZ-0001py-Hm; Wed, 16 May 2018 12:43:59 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> Mail-Followup-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 12:43:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Tue, 15 May 2018 17:16:00 +0200") Message-ID: <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Michael Heerdegen X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Michael Heerdegen () Tue, 15 May 2018 17:16:00 +0200 BTW, keywords are another case - it might be obvious that trying to bind these symbols might not be a good idea, but it should be told for completeness. Thanks; good catch. See commit 2db569560c, just pushed. Maybe we should move the ATOM case in the pattern list of the pcase docstring before the SYMBOL case? Please see these commits: 80ed201 (docstring) explode "ATOM"; flatten; zonk "match themselves" sent= ence f927f6a (docstring) move { 'VAL, KEYWORD, INTEGER, STRING } prior to SYMB= OL Similarly, for QPAT: e436b49 for structural / Q-pattern, replace "atom" w/ SYMBOL, INTEGER, ST= RING The list in Texinfo has been likewise re-ordered. (Sorry, too much bother to dig up specific commits -- you can build .info or .pdf and take a look for yourself.) Change of focus: In commit 5b775cf3fc there is an Issue. WDYT? =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) (pcase (context query) (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlr8C2kACgkQZwMiJEyAdQKAAQCgwbfQz9MbD7nu5fLenarsYxaX La8An3Slkpz2AaE6Qpd41zR0IEYSXOBc =ba6W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 16 11:18:22 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 May 2018 15:18:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37235 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fIyC6-0007q8-HD for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 May 2018 11:18:22 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:56307) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fIyC4-0007ps-Tv for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 16 May 2018 11:18:21 -0400 Received: from drachen.dragon ([188.110.196.170]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb103 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MMEvB-1fBYbL37bZ-0084vj; Wed, 16 May 2018 17:18:14 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 17:18:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> (Thien-Thi Nguyen's message of "Wed, 16 May 2018 12:43:50 +0200") Message-ID: <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:K5jvag82hSIW1EHr5Zpkh5yJG2B2NYhkcWe3n+I10xgGR1FlFyH euvtuAgeRpHtmwWaWNa4ASJ2UHf6fzCAlM2uzvLO2phFcuf0gRkqG8EihNyoqCrwpZaZyTg 0qZX1lJeB7JBqy6GxHVIm/zLF472v0wXn7/cxlSr5/kV6LmEBMrbpwHC1iXt06UceQFryoQ teugumcdVLBndnXBf1Ilg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:fBH/GjTM++0=:EefSEDo5P32dRogv8QhwV8 hrv4rkkUjlLq6yVyc07iRKQrNeYtkScEQFK2n/5opY0w8o9bsWT4at3u/DrxQiZC9MWDnv5KK EIfD+IP83cW2CanqVIoeHORsR8yQmRHQTXcSXWMUTEBEpAggWCxa+AfnnWn3TOm9qiGTjLc9s 36rkZyEqmcQSymhfpJQILtupShG4Uvvl2kdoEsunmzkt9F8OaURI3z21TaXXVg784/AlmD3Uj haKpgIVK205o2qQ+3UaB1lBj4MMsDSdX4JBkDBA6pt/OxgVQEIR7VTcwwiSEFbPKrIG61XrUG z7HckHRHAt0g+4FU6lLUPC9GQrjTqVwFQ9NW4NkAbrl5hzfGWwWUz41Mum90Md6f/AL2xS/7h hIENyjoYa09DCmv5fIFEBTiTBTWlwxXYd9r31JOuN9ttVINTmCULAQESf/RUX8d8tuIqWPZR7 ZHVJ9YuOUNn/o3mkYAstPWWkER3dCRqTrRGKVrtnh+DQYQA6V7SNqMNZmEVJZD/VMRDjbYQja zLgSscvKcteWzzvfFmIe8G2+Y5kYrpwhBhWqoLezK8qS3l0fIQ4qYcGoEu3sUIvo3UWOVuEir UxGVMi1YeuJuImHnso/t2+mxYvz/+mnKpEFpljxyQ8V107MELQmaOD8dmnD7HsV5jaLkTXt36 v/tTvEx8c8W6fl/ier9H1OkUQaqujY1Rb54HWeXEkouGGpAnrq5C4sewUWUVtv0hWT70Ght+Z NATGnRDj4nJl7dFPd8fKIORUA7AnbONhCJCXl5Ae2Lo3PuuGHt4f4rfvq7fbTUJktkAjNry4/ uGMLsmF X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Thien-Thi Nguyen writes: > Please see these commits: > 80ed201 (docstring) explode "ATOM"; flatten; zonk "match themselves" sentence > f927f6a (docstring) move { 'VAL, KEYWORD, INTEGER, STRING } prior to SYMBOL Ok, fine. Personally I would prefer to have KEYWORD, INTEGER and STRING in one line, like KEYWORD, INTEGER, STRING shorthand for \\='KEYWORD, \\='INTEGER, and \\='STRING so that we have as least different cases as possible in the item list. > Similarly, for QPAT: > e436b49 for structural / Q-pattern, replace "atom" w/ SYMBOL, INTEGER, STRING > > The list in Texinfo has been likewise re-ordered. (Sorry, too > much bother to dig up specific commits -- you can build .info or > .pdf and take a look for yourself.) It's ok for me. I'll have a look at the complete change when the details are done. > Change of focus: In commit 5b775cf3fc there is an Issue. WDYT? Yes, the code seems a bit half-baked. I don't recall why these cases are so problematic that they are handled this way. I think Stefan will know. Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 23 01:29:23 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 May 2018 05:29:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44657 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLMKv-0001VV-5I for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 01:29:23 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:41917) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLMKt-0001VI-UI for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 01:29:20 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fLMKs-00017y-P0; Wed, 23 May 2018 01:29:18 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fKTYu-0004EA-Ej; Sun, 20 May 2018 21:00:08 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> Mail-Followup-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 20:59:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Wed, 16 May 2018 17:18:14 +0200") Message-ID: <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Michael Heerdegen X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Michael Heerdegen () Wed, 16 May 2018 17:18:14 +0200 Personally I would prefer to have KEYWORD, INTEGER and STRING in one line, like KEYWORD, INTEGER, STRING shorthand for \\=3D'KEYWORD, \\=3D'INTEGER, and \\=3D'STRING so that we have as least different cases as possible in the item list. Yeah, that does seem a bit more pleasant. To achieve that, however, we would need to use =E2=80=98@table @asis=E2=80=99 and then manua= lly add @code around everything, so that the commas are not included in @code. Hmmm, energy seeping away... It's ok for me. I'll have a look at the complete change when the details are done. As of commit 7c68d9f8c7, "the details are done", but for: > commit 5b775cf3fc there is an Issue. WDYT? Yes, the code seems a bit half-baked. I don't recall why these cases are so problematic that they are handled this way. I think Stefan will know. and the other remaining Issue (commit 455f990ce), excerpt here: +@c Issue: Should this be split off into its own node/subsection? +@subheading Backquote-Style Patterns +@cindex backquote-style patterns IMHO, =E2=80=98pcase=E2=80=99 is so complex (compared to most other Emacs L= isp control structures), it deserves to be promoted to @=E2=80=98section=E2=80= =99, between =E2=80=98Conditionals=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98Constructs for Combinin= g Conditions=E2=80=99. What do people think? =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) (pcase (context query) (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlsBxbIACgkQZwMiJEyAdQIKmwCfZOhcry2t05vJjdG4r2D+erMS BX0An089M7PY++NiQQBbpD3njQCNLS/e =9QEF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 23 01:29:23 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 May 2018 05:29:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44659 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLMKx-0001VZ-AU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 01:29:23 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:41919) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLMKu-0001VJ-0q for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 01:29:20 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fLMKs-000180-U4; Wed, 23 May 2018 01:29:19 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fKoF7-0006dg-Cl; Mon, 21 May 2018 19:05:05 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: Mail-Followup-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 19:04:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:03:32 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87y3gd0wju.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Drew Adams () Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:03:32 -0700 (PDT) [points 1. through 15.] I have just pushed branches: fix/bug-31311-pcase-docs fix/bug-31311-pcase-docs-squash that address these points (and others raised during discussion). The latter branch is the former, squashed, and additionally rebased off =E2=80=98emacs-26=E2=80=99. Here are the four commits, briefly: 25d3e50 Ensure pcase doc shows `QPAT first among extensions 62b1cef Introduce EXPVAL for pcase, pcase-defmacro docstrings a7bf9ce Use EXPVAL in docstrings of patterns defined using pcase-defmacro 2df20b3 Overhaul pcase documentation (The first is mostly independent of this bug, and so its commit message lacks the "(Bug#31311)" found in the others'.) 16. All of the following text in the _doc string_ is pretty much incomprehensible, to me. [...] Yeah, i was also flummoxed for a bit. The third commit touches many of these docstrings, the ones that i could decipher. Its changes do not improve the meaning too much, i'm afraid (but at least, now they are more consistent in one syntax aspect). -- `QPAT This particular extension is actually "built-in" in spirit. The first commit takes care to support that impression (somewhat). The other commits improve its docstring, i believe. The -squash branch is ready for merge. I'll wait a few days for comments and do the merge, unless someone beats me to it. Once merged, i'd like to reserve the right to delete those branches (personal closure :-D), if the maintainers don't mind. =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) (pcase (context query) (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlsC/DkACgkQZwMiJEyAdQJjEwCfXRgZDczFoHOA3+nZ1WbH+R7E zAoAn0h3lSaRlsjzBJ2r7tMf5Oxs0SfC =yBmn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 23 09:56:02 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 May 2018 13:56:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45473 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLUFF-0000qN-Or for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 09:56:01 -0400 Received: from aserp2130.oracle.com ([141.146.126.79]:47424) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLUFD-0000q0-Mv for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 09:56:00 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w4NDoutN139150; Wed, 23 May 2018 13:55:53 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=jDdQA9xmt9kCX6tgG6hwG0BV3laQQcG9aXAzQLgtlOI=; b=a08bYEIbn38hQCaQZ8btGthLtdkEPAFbUckfwXY0qj0w00wePPmSP3aDErO2ONCH8bW2 yj071WY4Zciw3Zjg4rVGdSQ6c2pW2kmjR4JObXyfos2QKodVQLyVFaaeqG/7f8XzDro9 MoF7/MS/YvlyFSuJZkWYdKJ+MSnEAadpJS0B/51ly0jrt2rYVjL4ffv8nWUgVZD+jw+h rKA/uRSo5Aqd+wD3suuj0JB5DCx89QrtWxSffgxNCrziTkm3YwfL+94Pp4rKlA1U9tb9 G8EP8RSb34vVsjq2/Fm5TAeo2V6YMTJ+a1Qk9qwbnQy2RlaE4sJEDsuRlWnXRWQbw2Z4 nA== Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2j4nh7c2hc-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 23 May 2018 13:55:52 +0000 Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w4NDtqiC015421 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 23 May 2018 13:55:52 GMT Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w4NDtpON018556; Wed, 23 May 2018 13:55:52 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 06:55:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> In-Reply-To: <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4690.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8901 signatures=668700 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=13 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=507 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1805230141 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Michael Heerdegen X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Thanks for working on this, guys. I can't see the result, but I'll see it in the next release. I'm sure that it's been improved quite a bit, even just from the fact that a close look at it has been taken and difficulties have been discussed. Thx. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 23 11:28:23 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 May 2018 15:28:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45535 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLVgd-0002y1-2w for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 11:28:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42861) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLVgb-0002xp-8l for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 11:28:21 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fLVgR-0002UC-9E for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 11:28:15 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:43175) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fLVgR-0002U1-6a for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 11:28:11 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2147 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fLVgQ-0002Ud-GV for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 11:28:10 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 18:28:19 +0300 Message-Id: <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org In-reply-to: <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> (message from Thien-Thi Nguyen on Sun, 20 May 2018 20:59:58 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > From: Thien-Thi Nguyen > Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 20:59:58 +0200 > Cc: Michael Heerdegen > > and the other remaining Issue (commit 455f990ce), excerpt here: > > +@c Issue: Should this be split off into its own node/subsection? > +@subheading Backquote-Style Patterns > +@cindex backquote-style patterns > > IMHO, ‘pcase’ is so complex (compared to most other Emacs Lisp > control structures), it deserves to be promoted to @‘section’, > between ‘Conditionals’ and ‘Constructs for Combining Conditions’. > > What do people think? Why is this important? You can always add subsections, subsubsections, etc., if you want to structure the text into more parts than it is already. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 23 11:43:02 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 May 2018 15:43:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45543 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLVuo-0003J9-DY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 11:43:02 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:46519) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLVum-0003Ig-Mf for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 11:43:00 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fLVug-0000hm-Gp for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 11:42:55 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:43418) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fLVua-0000fQ-20; Wed, 23 May 2018 11:42:48 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2183 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fLVuZ-0000bQ-FE; Wed, 23 May 2018 11:42:47 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 18:42:55 +0300 Message-Id: <83h8mycr9c.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: (message from Drew Adams on Wed, 23 May 2018 06:55:48 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 06:55:48 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: Michael Heerdegen > > Thanks for working on this, guys. > > I can't see the result Yes, you can: point your Web browser to this URL: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git then click on the link to the relevant branch, in this case http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/log/?h=fix/bug-31311-pcase-doc-squash and then navigate to the file you want to read. You can also click on the "diff" link to see only the changes. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed May 23 15:17:22 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 May 2018 19:17:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45648 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLZGE-0008Oy-6s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 15:17:22 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:52950) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLZGC-0008Oq-2l for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 23 May 2018 15:17:20 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fLZGB-0000mH-HP; Wed, 23 May 2018 15:17:19 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fLZFm-0002uo-RC; Wed, 23 May 2018 21:16:54 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> Mail-Followup-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 21:16:42 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 23 May 2018 18:28:19 +0300") Message-ID: <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Eli Zaretskii () Wed, 23 May 2018 18:28:19 +0300 > +@c Issue: Should this be split off into its own > node/subsection? Why is this important? It is important because =E2=80=98pcase=E2=80=99 is a construct that selects based on new concepts: "pattern" and "matching". It also supports defining and sharing (to some extent) let-bindings. All the other conditional constructs select on value (squashed to boolean, that is), and don't have any let-binding support. It's true that the macro eventually expands to a =E2=80=98let=E2=80=99-wrap= ped =E2=80=98cond=E2=80=99, but my understanding that this expansion is an implementation detail -- maybe in the future it will be expanded in another more-fitting way. So, the new concepts stand on their own, rather than "stylized expressions for a predicate in the =E2=80=98cond=E2=80=99 CONDITION position". Also, =E2=80=98pcase=E2=80=99 is the only conditional construct that takes a first arg and evaluates it (like =E2=80=98case=E2=80=99). The new text exp= lains its hybrid nature (=E2=80=98cond=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98case=E2=80=99) in mo= re detail. The last reason is that =E2=80=98pcase=E2=80=99 supports "sequencing patter= ns", i.e., =E2=80=98(and PAT...)=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98(or PAT...)=E2=80=99. Th= ese are analogous to the same-named special forms documented in "Constructs for Combining Conditions" and the =E2=80=98pcase=E2=80=99 docs points that out = as a conceptual backward-direction xref. It's nice if the back-xref is also in the text as well. The reader sees/thinks: =2D conditionals / four, ok, simple, no prob =2D combining conditions / two, old hat, no prob =2D pcase "sequencing conditions" / two, xref AH! like =E2=80=98and=E2=80= =99, =E2=80=98or=E2=80=99 for patterns instead of for values, new hat but still no prob If we were to reverse the latter two (i.e., placing "Combining" last), the reader would encounter the xref in the forward direction. I feel strongly that it's desirable to minimize forward references in documentation (or work really hard to make them less disconcerting). You can always add subsections, subsubsections, etc., if you want to structure the text into more parts than it is already. In branch =E2=80=98fix/bug-31311-pcase-doc=E2=80=99 (note, not -squash), co= mmit 567342a88e53 does such a re-arranging. If you prefer, i can demote everything one level and move it back to "Conditionals". I'd then need to update that node's intro para to say "five". That might reduce the diff, too. However, i have explained (above) why i would be against this. =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) (pcase (context query) (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlsFviAACgkQZwMiJEyAdQLE/ACfaTaotWyU/7tYcJ/LnfwnXU9F 50gAoIg5pzvAxaJN3rAbW4mDHY0wQ7o3 =AIk9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 24 12:23:24 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 May 2018 16:23:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46660 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLt1Q-0003Sv-0h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 May 2018 12:23:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:43054) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLt1P-0003Sk-1S for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 May 2018 12:23:23 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fLt1E-0000qu-UB for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 May 2018 12:23:17 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:38142) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fLt1E-0000qo-Pv for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 May 2018 12:23:12 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3921 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fLt1E-0004wo-8K for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 May 2018 12:23:12 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 19:23:22 +0300 Message-Id: <83lgc9aupx.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org In-reply-to: <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> (message from Thien-Thi Nguyen on Wed, 23 May 2018 21:16:42 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > From: Thien-Thi Nguyen > Cc: Eli Zaretskii > Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 21:16:42 +0200 > > > +@c Issue: Should this be split off into its own > > node/subsection? > > Why is this important? > > It is important because ‘pcase’ is a construct that selects > based on new concepts: "pattern" and "matching". It also > supports defining and sharing (to some extent) let-bindings. > All the other conditional constructs select on value (squashed > to boolean, that is), and don't have any let-binding support. > > It's true that the macro eventually expands to a ‘let’-wrapped > ‘cond’, but my understanding that this expansion is an > implementation detail -- maybe in the future it will be expanded > in another more-fitting way. So, the new concepts stand on > their own, rather than "stylized expressions for a predicate in > the ‘cond’ CONDITION position". The documentation of 'pcase' is inside Conditionals not because it expands to 'cond', but because it can be perceived as a kind-of generalization of 'cond' (and the current text even says so explicitly). > The last reason is that ‘pcase’ supports "sequencing patterns", > i.e., ‘(and PAT...)’ and ‘(or PAT...)’. These are analogous to > the same-named special forms documented in "Constructs for > Combining Conditions" and the ‘pcase’ docs points that out as a > conceptual backward-direction xref. It's nice if the back-xref > is also in the text as well. The reader sees/thinks: > - conditionals / four, ok, simple, no prob > - combining conditions / two, old hat, no prob > - pcase "sequencing conditions" / two, xref AH! like ‘and’, ‘or’ > for patterns instead of for values, new hat but still no prob > > If we were to reverse the latter two (i.e., placing "Combining" > last), the reader would encounter the xref in the forward > direction. I feel strongly that it's desirable to minimize > forward references in documentation (or work really hard to make > them less disconcerting). I think you read too much into the tree-like structure of the manual, in particular it sounds like you assume many people will read all the sections of this chapter in strict depth-first order. But that is not what happens in most use cases. People usually read just the part(s) they need to understand the particular feature they need to use in their programs. When read like this, the order matters much less. What does matter is that details and "advanced" features are at lower levels, so that first reading doesn't require people to negotiate too many obstacles unnecessarily, which would prevent them from easily grasping the higher-level picture and main ideas. So I personally don't see too many serious reasons to promote this subsection to the level of a section; quite the contrary. But neither am I willing to make yet another dispute out of a minor issue such as this. If you feel strongly about this, feel free to do it. P.S. Your messages in this thread have a Mail-Followup-To header that points back to the bug address, 31311@debbugs.gnu.org. This causes Rmail to produce both To and CC headers to the bug address when I reply, and I'm forced to manually remove one of them, which is an annoyance. Would it be possible for you to avoid using that header, please? TIA. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu May 24 19:13:50 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 May 2018 23:13:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47049 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLzQc-00009M-EZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 May 2018 19:13:50 -0400 Received: from mail-qt0-f178.google.com ([209.85.216.178]:40570) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fLzQa-000097-LG for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 24 May 2018 19:13:49 -0400 Received: by mail-qt0-f178.google.com with SMTP id h2-v6so4313762qtp.7 for <31311@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 24 May 2018 16:13:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6t8XWmW1r6k+Rvrf6ccUE7sEg8D8M+BW0YigTgGi+EQ=; b=m+XEO/jvV9788g/YetVMbn2LzqBO6ble4uu0BEBoYGEg3xnsJ1/2EkUvEMzKPJLYhO S3vjWrPQwzK68PcpN0VBviT0JxZ23zUfm/SSxYd+7T2F5Ug2dc7MEjQvvTemAH3A2VQv 9uHj45Yte6E94rgJ9Dx+sLVH6KGbYQ2mbd6KyN8W7dfvjRAdlpz81L+TU87Su1xY+ubm h0QDh1WtDX+bVrFBdFv2DuFIPMVvOF5hfIPsEMfQr6536yBjYnjOBcz8HAVq0VnfAf+X fVZdEqJh4pn9Ec9j6fyG6aeX5Qu94RT92x3Ns5VQEJyCPpZL+/VcXp82/6WrB9H85rng wUNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6t8XWmW1r6k+Rvrf6ccUE7sEg8D8M+BW0YigTgGi+EQ=; b=qr3o4iUKLFJqDNcGHiiLj7IqzHrSG7wuPTil1hpU+DG1SLOxWi4x2Iw7TrIM1Zm02H v+rG+OSUaXi39zjXTARaqL/rhHh3WMUssJM8ui57kDjYZ4jI2NXaMcYmgs9VYmSicI6L ctdjM0uygEO/xnriTj5lQ5pQyI4eh4c2eo8Ew5oiLiYUrqrKBkLIJ9wZepld88py9G5o cMxM50zWPnFUVSp5lMPS5/UZQ/fWBnwIvrQY/ITj5ZHOaMWNArfTKi9lf33h/pNV8GKy i5wmvZs+Bag93U8ygX1tk/hH68E7ulgk2YN0vFeCvDBKMBilk+9xXMpWHP29b7+7wdPm xnAg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwcxlA3HkUsakm31eRF0dbPA3Msi4ADFyqYe1rZODVQOZ+R3uQ0N UrO1Kt0XIRdQHYphNPGLv1z7m2P8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZowIdyH8avwx3kFCUKZS7j+r5V8GCjFVGMatyzz91V4wntkEYfacJHRQLNGlVN9vq3U9ymkmg== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:b03d:: with SMTP id k58-v6mr9002943qvc.121.1527203622958; Thu, 24 May 2018 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zebian (cbl-45-2-119-34.yyz.frontiernetworks.ca. [45.2.119.34]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id k127-v6sm3629512qke.20.2018.05.24.16.13.41 for <31311@debbugs.gnu.org> (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Thu, 24 May 2018 16:13:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Noam Postavsky To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 19:13:40 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> (Thien-Thi Nguyen's message of "Wed, 23 May 2018 21:16:42 +0200") Message-ID: <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Thien-Thi Nguyen writes: > Also, =E2=80=98pcase=E2=80=99 is the only conditional construct that take= s a > first arg and evaluates it (like =E2=80=98case=E2=80=99). The new text e= xplains > its hybrid nature (=E2=80=98cond=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98case=E2=80=99) in = more detail. The manual should refer to `cl-case', not `case'. I don't think pcase should be referred to as a hybrid of cond and cl-case; maybe a hybrid of cond and cl-destructuring-bind. Or perhaps: like cl-case, only more so. > +These render @code{case} unsuitable for strings or compound > +data structures (e.g., lists or vectors). > +For that, why not use @code{cond}? Wait, what? @dots{} I guess this is supposed to be funny, but I think it might confuse the reader. > +(defun grok/traditional (obj) > + (if (and (stringp obj) > + (string-match "^key:\\([[:digit:]]+\\)$" obj)) > + (match-string 1 obj) > + (list "149" 'default))) > +(defun grok/pcase (obj) > + (pcase obj > + ((or ; @r{line 1} > + (and ; @r{line 2} > + (pred stringp) ; @r{line 3} > + (pred (string-match ; @r{line 4} > + "^key:\\([[:digit:]]+\\)$")) ; @r{line 5} > + (app (match-string 1) ; @r{line 6} You have to pass the original string to match-string. > + val)) ; @r{line 7} > + (let val (list "149" 'default))) ; @r{line 8} > + val))) ; @r{line 9} This doesn't seem like a great example of pcase usage. Not sure if you want to introduce the extended `rx' pattern here, but it works better for this, IMO: (pcase x ((and (pred stringp) (rx bol "key:" (let val (+ (any digit))) eol)) val) (_ 'default)) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 26 06:38:53 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2018 10:38:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49041 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMWb7-0002hW-ET for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 06:38:53 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:39527) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMWb4-0002hG-TP for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 06:38:51 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fMWb3-0003kK-SA; Sat, 26 May 2018 06:38:50 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fMU6Q-00053u-8p; Sat, 26 May 2018 09:59:02 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83lgc9aupx.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 09:58:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83lgc9aupx.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 24 May 2018 19:23:22 +0300") Message-ID: <87k1rq26h1.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Eli Zaretskii X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Eli Zaretskii () Thu, 24 May 2018 19:23:22 +0300 The documentation of 'pcase' is inside Conditionals not because it expands to 'cond', but because it can be perceived as a kind-of generalization of 'cond' (and the current text even says so explicitly). Yes. Commit 81d1eaff54ad corrects the count of conditional forms, mentions this relationship, and adds xref. > [because of "sequencing patterns", pcase > should follow "Combining Conditions"] I think you read too much into the tree-like structure of the manual, in particular it sounds like you assume many people will read all the sections of this chapter in strict depth-first order. When the output format is text or PDF, depth-first is the order of presentation. I was thinking about that use-case primarily, for this portion of the reasoning. But that is not what happens in most use cases. People usually read just the part(s) they need to understand the particular feature they need to use in their programs. When read like this, the order matters much less. What does matter is that details and "advanced" features are at lower levels, so that first reading doesn't require people to negotiate too many obstacles unnecessarily, which would prevent them from easily grasping the higher-level picture and main ideas. Agreed. Random-access readers need less help. So I personally don't see too many serious reasons to promote this subsection to the level of a section; quite the contrary. But neither am I willing to make yet another dispute out of a minor issue such as this. If you feel strongly about this, feel free to do it. Ack. My feelings are strong but not validated by experience (in this case). If people complain, i'll gladly change it back. P.S. Your messages in this thread have a Mail-Followup-To header that [...] causes Rmail to produce both To and CC headers to the bug address when I reply, and I'm forced to manually remove one of them, which is an annoyance. Would it be possible for you to avoid using that header, please? TIA. Sure, no problem. =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) (pcase (context query) (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlsJE78ACgkQZwMiJEyAdQKnVACg0zwf9651WsKnccybnhBY1cRH oGQAn0QV9TAC95RnUfc89b6ujmEIERsT =Go4X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 26 06:38:54 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2018 10:38:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49043 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMWb7-0002hZ-Ni for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 06:38:53 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:39526) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMWb4-0002hF-TO for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 06:38:51 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fMWb3-0003kM-Tu; Sat, 26 May 2018 06:38:50 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fMV5P-0005F4-1w; Sat, 26 May 2018 11:02:03 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 11:01:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> (Noam Postavsky's message of "Thu, 24 May 2018 19:13:40 -0400") Message-ID: <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Noam Postavsky X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Noam Postavsky () Thu, 24 May 2018 19:13:40 -0400 The manual should refer to `cl-case', not `case'. > +These render @code{case} unsuitable for strings or compound > +data structures (e.g., lists or vectors). > +For that, why not use @code{cond}? Wait, what? @dots{} I guess this is supposed to be funny, but I think it might confuse the reader. I did =E2=80=98s/case/cl-&/g=E2=80=99 in commit 468e82790f1, and converted = the haha attempt text to: "(And here we end up in a circle.)" I don't think pcase should be referred to as a hybrid of cond and cl-case; maybe a hybrid of cond and cl-destructuring-bind. Or perhaps: like cl-case, only more so. Many computer languages have an intrinsic case-ish construct, so it was a bit surprising for me to learn that =E2=80=98case=E2=80=99 in Emacs Lisp is actually =E2=80=98cl-case=E2=80=99, which has a second-class citizen feel. In using =E2=80=98cl-case=E2=80=99 as one of the conceptual parents = of =E2=80=98pcase=E2=80=99, my reasoning is: =2D Build on "expectatious programmer" mindset. Programmers new to Emacs Lisp might feel that same surprise i felt and do what i did: reach for =E2=80=98cl-case=E2=80=99 immediately, making it a habit= to such an extent as to consider it intrinsic (thus, familiar). =2D I agree somewhat that =E2=80=98cl-destructuring-bind=E2=80=99 might be a better parent, especially for structural pattern matching, but it does not have widespread analogs in other programming languages, and its operation is not as easy to grasp as a case-ish construct. Too, structural patterns are but one kind of pattern that =E2=80=98pcase=E2=80=99 supports. So, i understand your point (i believe) but disagree. > + (app (match-string 1) ; @r{line 6} You have to pass the original string to match-string. Yes, =E2=80=98app=E2=80=99 handles that. There is an explanation in one of= the paragraphs following the code. Anyway, thanks for pointing this out, as the paragraph in question lacked a reference "line 6" due to oversight on my part -- fixed in commit 6aace45830. > + val)) ; @r{line 7} > + (let val (list "149" 'default))) ; @r{line 8} > + val))) ; @r{line 9} This doesn't seem like a great example of pcase usage. Not sure if you want to introduce the extended `rx' pattern here, but it works better for this, IMO: (pcase x ((and (pred stringp) (rx bol "key:" (let val (+ (any digit))) eol)) val) (_ 'default)) Thanks for the tip; that's certainly more elegant. This example is admittedly a bit contrived, but i think its merit is that it stays w/ the basic core patterns, using them in idiomatic ways. I think i saw in another thread (bug report?) that rx.el needs documentation. It would be great if those docs could xref this example w/ the re-re-formulation you wrote. =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) (pcase (context query) (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlsJIoUACgkQZwMiJEyAdQLh3ACfdvXpzsPgAisgE8rfUwKYPwtv fs4AoJN9GCeWMFvxNd4DfAcF78p4NyvK =2NtZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 26 11:26:12 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 May 2018 15:26:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49809 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMb5A-00031y-G4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 11:26:12 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:39502) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMb58-00031l-Ur for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 May 2018 11:26:11 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w4QFPqME066723; Sat, 26 May 2018 15:26:05 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=6qMVVfRk+3WUKkGGlR0hsN5sYmpR+iaCgPD0OYb770g=; b=WU08SSLceWIXrfb+kFq4iP9W2uaisnNRTM1pXaRVGQXy3e0UkxlE2xszsf4qPJau1dUP s4Uo1VsEANOHYKqddlg5acpZMG0EYW/ze5Dq8f7rWTYn211S7g+mhbWzZxIFIvI0dtK3 1f4jZlZk25ayUPMXOt2RbM0sGoxWxiERRFmGDtnyrwYNQkN/lJ1Wnc+0FN9Vba58H5OT kLmTgpU1UW6097NyHVtZ/8Ebq+OUzh3G4U5nUJNijntkyGK4zkYuJdYabqdZ73kW7xnt L9bSuXlIv5VwzgXfI124ZC22HNU8dLWn5LJG5n96iXeZQ8ubnaqT4IHldRSx/4+mJJlx Sw== Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2j7084s25u-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 26 May 2018 15:26:05 +0000 Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w4QFQ4ZV001885 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 26 May 2018 15:26:04 GMT Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w4QFQ3rP029323; Sat, 26 May 2018 15:26:03 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 08:26:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> In-Reply-To: <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4690.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8905 signatures=668702 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=15 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=664 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1805260182 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Noam Postavsky X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > The manual should refer to `cl-case', not `case'. I disagree. My (unsolicited) 2 cents: `case' is aliased to `cl-case', IF you load `cl.el' at byte-compile time. It has always been so, and it should remain so. Or the other way around: we should instead alias `cl-case' to `case'. Encouraging everyone to instead load `cl-lib.el' does _not_ provide `case'. If `cl-lib.el' is to be the way to go then it should itself provide the alias. Dunno whether this lack was an oversight or deliberate, but it is a step backward. We now (rightfully) encourage users to load `cl-lib.el' instead of `cl.el', but we no longer bother to encourage loading `cl.el' at compile time to pick up macros. But no one should even need to load `cl-lib.el' (or `cl.el' at compile time). Emacs should itself have `case', prominently and first class. And it is fine if the Emacs `case' is also the Common Lisp `case', or close to it. The same should be true elsewhere: Emacs appropriating Common Lisp constructs is fine and dandy. But yes, of course, as long as `case' (aka `cl-case') is not *exactly* the same as the Common Lisp `case' the two should remain aliased, and any differences from Common Lisp should be documented. But users should first and foremost see `case', not `cl-case'. It should be as prominent as `cond' and `if', `when', and `unless' - ALL of which also exist in Common Lisp. We don't call them `cl-cond', `cl-if', `cl-when', and `cl-unless'! And rightfully so. Preload the `cl-case' definition in Emacs, call it `case', and alias `cl-case' to it. There is no reason to force or encourage people to use `cl-case' instead of `case'. The opposite is true - they should be encouraged to use `case', not `cl-case'. Emacs deserves `case', and it has `case' - you just have to know about jumping through a hoop to reveal it. [We even had the extreme position a few years ago that an eager-beaver mmaintainer forced names like `cl-caddr' on Emacs. Fortunately, that craziness was eventually rescinded. http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-02/msg01394.html ] _______ On a related subject, `pcase', and especially its derivatives, should be renamed. These things are not (are no longer) about a kind of `case'. Their names should share a common root, yes. But it should not be just `p', and it should definitely not be `case'. Their names should have a root that suggests pattern matching and, at least in some cases, binding/destructuring. (Start a contest to find a good root name. ;-)) > I did =E2=80=98s/case/cl-&/g=E2=80=99 in commit 468e82790f1 Too bad. That's a step backward, not forward, IMHO. =20 > Many computer languages have an intrinsic case-ish construct, so > it was a bit surprising for me to learn that =E2=80=98case=E2=80=99 in Em= acs > Lisp is actually =E2=80=98cl-case=E2=80=99, which has a second-class citi= zen > feel. Exactly. And there is no need for that second-class status. And it is _new_. In the past everyone just used `case' in Emacs. And they still can, the same way, by loading `cl.el' at byte-compile time, to pick up the macro. They should not need to do that. > In using =E2=80=98cl-case=E2=80=99 as one of the conceptual parents of = =E2=80=98pcase=E2=80=99,=20 But it's not, really. Maybe "parent" in the sense of design ancestor, but not "parent" in the sense of current derivation or resemblance. > - Build on "expectatious programmer" mindset. Programmers new > to Emacs Lisp might feel that same surprise i felt and do what > i did: reach for =E2=80=98cl-case=E2=80=99 immediately, making it a hab= it to > such an extent as to consider it intrinsic (thus, familiar). Yes. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 04:17:32 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 08:17:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50118 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMqrs-00039T-7H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 04:17:32 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:43208) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMqrq-00039M-Ra for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 04:17:31 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fMqrp-0005M8-RV; Sun, 27 May 2018 04:17:29 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fMqx8-0006UW-2F; Sun, 27 May 2018 10:22:58 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 10:22:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 26 May 2018 08:26:02 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Drew Adams () Sat, 26 May 2018 08:26:02 -0700 (PDT) > The manual should refer to `cl-case', not `case'. I disagree. My (unsolicited) 2 cents: [why =E2=80=98case=E2=80=99 over =E2=80=98cl-case=E2=80=99] I agree, in the long term. However, for the scope of this bug, it's not a crucial problem to resolve. If the fundamental change you seek is to transition =E2=80=98case=E2=80=99 into Emacs Lisp "co= re" (not requiring loading cl.el etc), that's something that we can discuss in -devel and when it occurs, the docs can be updated accordingly. [We even had the extreme position a few years ago that an eager-beaver mmaintainer forced names like `cl-caddr' on Emacs. Fortunately, that craziness was eventually rescinded. http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-02/msg01394.html ] Wow. On a related subject [naming of `pcase' et al]. This interesting topic is better discussed in -devel, i think. > In using =E2=80=98cl-case=E2=80=99 as one of the conceptual parents of > =E2=80=98pcase=E2=80=99, But it's not, really. Maybe "parent" in the sense of design ancestor, but not "parent" in the sense of current derivation or resemblance. Well, "design ancestor" is what i meant by "conceptual parent". However, i did not dare use that because i myself did not design =E2=80=98pcase=E2=80=99. I think "conceptual parent" accurately describes = how someone on the outside might look at things. Pure projection on the surface, yes, but a bit of empathy in the background, too. Anyway, thanks to everyone who gave feedback. With your help, i think we are now at a good point to merge (and close the bug). I have squashed the two following commits that pertained to "Overhaul pcase documentation" into that one and left "Mention pcase as a fifth conditional form" as the last one on branch =E2=80=98fix/bug-31311-pcase-doc-squash=E2=80=99. I deleted and repushed t= hat branch; its HEAD commit is now 3a0c48aac9a. I'd like to merge that branch into =E2=80=98emacs-26=E2=80=99 immediately. = Any objections? =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) ; (2018) Software Libero (pcase (context query) ; =3D Dissenso Etico (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlsKatwACgkQZwMiJEyAdQJMmwCcCXQzZr8oZIyQon2HcYW3YnFZ Bx0An37CZHc3wLhsSyAh4GGIzHjDJcrk =DAHD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 04:35:09 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 08:35:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50127 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMr8u-0003ZP-W5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 04:35:09 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:43247) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMr8s-0003ZH-UU for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 04:35:07 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fMr8s-0005dO-LQ; Sun, 27 May 2018 04:35:06 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fMrFb-0006ez-Py; Sun, 27 May 2018 10:42:03 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 10:41:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> (Thien-Thi Nguyen's message of "Sun, 27 May 2018 10:22:49 +0200") Message-ID: <87muwlze0d.fsf@gnuvola.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Thien-Thi Nguyen () Sun, 27 May 2018 10:22:49 +0200 I deleted and repushed =E2=80=98fix/bug-31311-pcase-doc-squash=E2=80=99; its HEAD commit is now 3a0c48aac9a. Update: rebased onto =E2=80=98emacs-26=E2=80=99, HEAD commit now cead47ab95= 1f. =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) ; (2018) Software Libero (pcase (context query) ; =3D Dissenso Etico (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlsKb1UACgkQZwMiJEyAdQLJPgCePe+61ZPhRqcrhGrDL2hBSrfZ ivcAn2qC8DO0fiAQX8jtOK49jJ4F6RoP =gI5X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 09:32:02 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 13:32:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50248 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMvmD-00041l-H4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 09:32:02 -0400 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:55858) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMvmB-00041Y-CZ for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 09:31:59 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w4RDQFZR082577; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:31:53 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=4ijbAVLSOpDvC/hdLSuzGrEGmS2nHb+ZqPlsyAKEfEA=; b=CKNKC8U5BDZQPshZtzcL5xBb86viOSnPhcA7eU+07FpdnhJtDUcHXWhk17eQa4Bxlatz lmBlD0LWADt18pS+RgVJvkvJOxI81nVu7bOl5xgcv9Xy3xo5Y78PyVWQjqYHOha3VX+C 21lOp3o4FpnNJEX1ari91i/lsL1Db+YmXIxZvsLJV1Sf9Gn26ntqGE+rgAjZjHy40Uwo poQmLXOy7KLrgm1SjX3e6kb4sZwkR2H5Wi0Oy5IbS5/dVec3dFOW7gwGip7Qxb5kRkTk a/JVwmKLByh7IdiC6lk5n9Mov1TDe8hKrClKeeZeL6zIooib3wpji9bpzaBGgCBNib1r 3w== Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2j7084u12a-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 27 May 2018 13:31:53 +0000 Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w4RDVpW3003174 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 27 May 2018 13:31:52 GMT Received: from abhmp0015.oracle.com (abhmp0015.oracle.com [141.146.116.21]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w4RDVpSL028175; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:31:51 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 06:31:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Thien-Thi Nguyen Subject: RE: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> In-Reply-To: <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4690.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8906 signatures=668702 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=998 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1805270169 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > The manual should refer to `cl-case', not `case'. > I disagree. My (unsolicited) 2 cents: ... >=20 > I agree, in the long term. However, for the scope of > this bug, it's not a crucial problem to resolve. Right. This bug is not about that. =20 > If the fundamental change you seek is to transition > =E2=80=98case=E2=80=99 into Emacs Lisp "core" (not requiring loading > cl.el etc),=20 Yes - let Emacs embrace `case' as one of its own. But I put it differently. It's not about where the definition lives (in which file), except in so far as one or the other place requires users to jump through more hoops. And no one has ever had to (and still does not need to) load cl.el at runtime, to get `case'. It's a macro, so it's enough to load it at byte-compile time. Still, it would be better if even that were not needed. > that's something that we can discuss in -devel It's been raised, IIRC, but didn't go anywhere. > and when it occurs, the docs can be updated accordingly. Agreed. I just jumped in here, OT, in response to this general statement: The manual should refer to `cl-case', not `case'. > On a related subject [naming of `pcase' et al]. >=20 > This interesting topic is better discussed in -devel, i think. Yes. > i think we are now at a good point to merge (and close the bug). I haven't looked at the resulting doc, but I'm sure it's a great improvement. Thanks for all your work on this. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 10:12:11 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 14:12:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51055 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMwP5-00057P-48 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 10:12:11 -0400 Received: from mail-io0-f170.google.com ([209.85.223.170]:45631) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMwP4-000579-Bd for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 10:12:10 -0400 Received: by mail-io0-f170.google.com with SMTP id c9-v6so11368171iob.12 for <31311@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 27 May 2018 07:12:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JshaKCcpxzvS/7fCSGuE0HkPdbHcwjdwcwSqCf+NvD0=; b=eg26p7KHmuK8E14vgAmaN4AkNl5KTP1m/XcvMHiiwoMV18fnjLoMGcAIjcxyp4veoB KYPtFJCSIUgvP5wqFfyTjNG1QBn41tn7hOTm0hEWCZ9asviSdIOAex/rtRQAM6CuRFYG btRgpDlCmbdnh2/xAkFwePQEOVkYrucmBK8Gf3brQdhwpGMlnHynikh5uHpl0fnD+1pr rBXugIUl3MCPnqKxRgpFQQo6vPGva3Ia9CHouNrwdnAgOZ+frybna5G6+kR1kvffNhGM Vt3i8T/Dqaaa24F7KDrey/fMJB4c7O83MWPTLEpbOjCexcSgmejzc9ETjt3GenLhz2QC keKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JshaKCcpxzvS/7fCSGuE0HkPdbHcwjdwcwSqCf+NvD0=; b=DUv9gdYHJvt8ft8wLSiCyMCiVcTKgbhr/N3xczoRQjJNSTciYUGOxe5xDuWXs1narK KJqbOWL9A+I9QDccGzO+el7M01p95Cvy9WUKdMEAOgHMXfhbStsFSuZ0DdWmWcUiTl1B Jp3iuDarJ91gqcUNphLhNF4X/PH3LMiFuMMZNrb+pGNObZpNl5sNSALkCeoJX04faMo/ hD3+UvG3XYt7fJ/eHN9JsSvTx++xJn6z2AqZVsj1i3w0BHm1xJVTVabiLWaFVaAs8YYT KJR2SUNBYYVvnKFD9VBG3+pbdbCvNdDbXwn8MrK33vJsB/+sUdTODfMFue+ujTe/HbE5 VrGw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwev4yKkOh8IG9HDo6SLEyU8pwcWgVCiV3obziImfcvTVa67ta+U 1QgfGQHaSDZAJluAJ8EFyntvBQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKK6+NuCa2XYYnsASfH4AsJ1VyNHilC0O+sIRzxUsGyMMZ6YFYx/CKp6YRhQQegnOq0gorCJmw== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:98ca:: with SMTP id a193-v6mr8702889ioe.254.1527430324817; Sun, 27 May 2018 07:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zebian (cbl-45-2-119-34.yyz.frontiernetworks.ca. [45.2.119.34]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id w73-v6sm6104080itb.19.2018.05.27.07.12.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sun, 27 May 2018 07:12:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Noam Postavsky To: Thien-Thi Nguyen Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 10:12:00 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> (Thien-Thi Nguyen's message of "Sun, 27 May 2018 10:22:49 +0200") Message-ID: <87vab9dw7j.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) Thien-Thi Nguyen writes: > I'd like to merge that branch into =E2=80=98emacs-26=E2=80=99 immediately= . Any > objections? Nothing more from me, except a minor note about the commit message formatting: * doc/lispref/elisp.texi (Top) (detailmenu) [Control Structures]: Add "Pattern-Matching Conditional". [Conditionals]: Delete section. Square brackets are for conditional changes [1], I think you want round parens or possibly angle brackets [2]. [1]: https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Conditional-Changes.html [2]: https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Indicating-the-Part-Chang= ed.html From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 12:17:18 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 16:17:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51109 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMyM8-0003QY-Kj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:17:18 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:55227) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMyM6-0003QJ-IG for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:17:15 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMyLw-000394-CG for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:17:09 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:51405) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMyLi-00030B-Q1; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:16:50 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2446 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fMyLi-0004Kl-9m; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:16:50 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 19:16:40 +0300 Message-Id: <83a7sl845z.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Thien-Thi Nguyen In-reply-to: <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> (message from Thien-Thi Nguyen on Sun, 27 May 2018 10:22:49 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Nicolas Petton , 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > From: Thien-Thi Nguyen > Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 10:22:49 +0200 > Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org > > I'd like to merge that branch into ‘emacs-26’ immediately. Any > objections? The tarball for 26.1 was already made, and was tested yesterday. I understand it will be uploaded tomorrow. Is this deemed important enough to delay the release and ask Nicolas to re-tar the release after updating from Git? If not, I guess this merge will have to wait for a couple of days and will make it into 26.2. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everybody who participated in this effort. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 12:26:30 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 16:26:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51121 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMyV4-0003fC-3H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:26:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:57776) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMyV2-0003f0-HW for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:26:28 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMyUw-0001uj-Lo for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:26:23 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:51516) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMyUo-0001t0-SH; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:26:14 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2453 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fMyUo-00053J-Bk; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:26:14 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 19:26:04 +0300 Message-Id: <83603983qb.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: ttn@gnu.org In-reply-to: <83a7sl845z.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sun, 27 May 2018 19:16:40 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83a7sl845z.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: nicolas@petton.fr, 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 19:16:40 +0300 > From: Eli Zaretskii > Cc: Nicolas Petton , 31311@debbugs.gnu.org > > > From: Thien-Thi Nguyen > > Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 10:22:49 +0200 > > Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > I'd like to merge that branch into ‘emacs-26’ immediately. Any > > objections? > > The tarball for 26.1 was already made, and was tested yesterday. I > understand it will be uploaded tomorrow. > > Is this deemed important enough to delay the release and ask Nicolas > to re-tar the release after updating from Git? If not, I guess this > merge will have to wait for a couple of days and will make it into > 26.2. And I see that you already pushed without waiting for a response to your question :-( Nicolas, what does this mean for the tarball you prepared? You didn't yet push the 26.1 tag, so do we revert the commit, or re-do the tarball, or do something else? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 12:32:54 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 16:32:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51135 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMybG-0003q2-8H for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:32:54 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]:51240) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMybE-0003pr-79 for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 12:32:52 -0400 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40v5BW0wJ9z1qtdw; Sun, 27 May 2018 18:32:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.70]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40v5BW08VYz1qql4; Sun, 27 May 2018 18:32:51 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.70]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LaJIPwERxM4n; Sun, 27 May 2018 18:32:50 +0200 (CEST) X-Auth-Info: VBsVdJPT0QdsgzRwohEBHjYjjTG78nw94kM79SF3JnLiLUlWKVo33Nx3iQdlTRQW Received: from localhost (ppp-188-174-145-179.dynamic.mnet-online.de [188.174.145.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Sun, 27 May 2018 18:32:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BB3682C4D1C; Sun, 27 May 2018 18:32:49 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83a7sl845z.fsf@gnu.org> <83603983qb.fsf@gnu.org> X-Yow: HOORAY, Ronald!! Now YOU can marry LINDA RONSTADT too!! Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 18:32:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83603983qb.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 27 May 2018 19:26:04 +0300") Message-ID: <876039oy8e.fsf@igel.home> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: ttn@gnu.org, nicolas@petton.fr, 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) On Mai 27 2018, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Nicolas, what does this mean for the tarball you prepared? You didn't > yet push the 26.1 tag, so do we revert the commit, or re-do the > tarball, or do something else? Don't move the tag. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510 2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 13:31:22 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 17:31:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51201 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzVq-0005HP-C0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:31:22 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:41718) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzVo-0005HC-Pp for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:31:21 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzVg-0002eF-Aw for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:31:15 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:52352) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzVW-0002WT-Px; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:31:02 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2568 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzVW-0001CS-8d; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:31:02 -0400 Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 20:30:52 +0300 Message-Id: <834lit80qb.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Andreas Schwab In-reply-to: <876039oy8e.fsf@igel.home> (message from Andreas Schwab on Sun, 27 May 2018 18:32:49 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83a7sl845z.fsf@gnu.org> <83603983qb.fsf@gnu.org> <876039oy8e.fsf@igel.home> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: ttn@gnu.org, nicolas@petton.fr, 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) > From: Andreas Schwab > Cc: ttn@gnu.org, nicolas@petton.fr, 31311@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 18:32:49 +0200 > > On Mai 27 2018, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > Nicolas, what does this mean for the tarball you prepared? You didn't > > yet push the 26.1 tag, so do we revert the commit, or re-do the > > tarball, or do something else? > > Don't move the tag. Sorry, I don't follow. The 26.1 tag is not yet there, AFAICS. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 27 13:45:07 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 17:45:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51218 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzj9-0005ap-0d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:45:07 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]:50483) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzj7-0005ah-OI for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 13:45:06 -0400 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40v6nr35kmz1r7YR; Sun, 27 May 2018 19:45:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.70]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40v6nr0K72z1qql9; Sun, 27 May 2018 19:45:04 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.70]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gVhgeQZLpmfk; Sun, 27 May 2018 19:45:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Auth-Info: 19YY1T5Axz4GhDrDNNomCHN+raTHjGsZZzfUvlyLmCb3Rh9e5/0rq+ZoWtDyWqpw Received: from localhost (ppp-188-174-145-179.dynamic.mnet-online.de [188.174.145.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Sun, 27 May 2018 19:45:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B62DB2C4BF3; Sun, 27 May 2018 19:45:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83a7sl845z.fsf@gnu.org> <83603983qb.fsf@gnu.org> <876039oy8e.fsf@igel.home> <834lit80qb.fsf@gnu.org> X-Yow: Bo Derek ruined my life! Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 19:45:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: <834lit80qb.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 27 May 2018 20:30:52 +0300") Message-ID: <87zi0lngbl.fsf@igel.home> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: ttn@gnu.org, nicolas@petton.fr, 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) On Mai 27 2018, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Andreas Schwab >> Cc: ttn@gnu.org, nicolas@petton.fr, 31311@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 18:32:49 +0200 >> >> On Mai 27 2018, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> >> > Nicolas, what does this mean for the tarball you prepared? You didn't >> > yet push the 26.1 tag, so do we revert the commit, or re-do the >> > tarball, or do something else? >> >> Don't move the tag. > > Sorry, I don't follow. The 26.1 tag is not yet there, AFAICS. The tag should match the tarball contents, even if not yet published. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510 2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1 "And now for something completely different." From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 28 03:25:16 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 May 2018 07:25:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51505 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fNCWp-00058U-PJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 03:25:15 -0400 Received: from petton.fr ([89.234.186.68]:39700) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fNCWo-00058F-LH for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 03:25:15 -0400 From: Nicolas Petton To: Eli Zaretskii , ttn@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' In-Reply-To: <83603983qb.fsf@gnu.org> References: <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83a7sl845z.fsf@gnu.org> <83603983qb.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 28 May 2018 09:25:03 +0200 Message-ID: <8736ycjl80.fsf@petton.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=petton.fr; s=mail; t=1527492308; bh=4fypF/vVd9mVpeV5jCBpGPic2bEVq5aWmbIjv9EKi6I=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=M5epDOcMrh0pN/4OHWfevHOUSiAaPvKJfCzSlFjQWqkif5dqn+FqsRhBlmOl3dMuRBtWyhJ+/No1hufdfgWqRH6Sr0Z6AdzfyDkv17+3DYG21p/CY0qLmdJ6do0HqrmcH23F0IwcwswMz/GtFXEFA2jAUH9K/a/oDyKuvnVDqFA= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Eli Zaretskii writes: > And I see that you already pushed without waiting for a response to > your question :-( > > Nicolas, what does this mean for the tarball you prepared? You didn't > yet push the 26.1 tag, so do we revert the commit, or re-do the > tarball, or do something else? The commit the release tarball points to is pushed, so I can still push the the tag, which whill be one commit behind in the emacs-26 branch. I can also rebuild the tarball, it's up to you. Cheers, Nico --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE1AWqLIYsVPF+7mvg6LzXhmr8+XgFAlsLrs8ACgkQ6LzXhmr8 +XiLkQgAydt5Tg8TKRbskIz1uzoiou0a/xKgEA/kb62DL8An075G+1fbcKqQQsw5 90EDOBUXnUxLjlgh8NlRTFOgy16+lAjqnRSYWrvYaanRSyQ+VVb0jA5uc99HDgGl N48Ct7B1p+SZZ0h+Q/n0sqq5i+eWuqLsyxNlAh70dTNThTcq11zN+1xmT8yRA+Yr YzDStUCFwWoL1wGd0xIvunRr71+TP42TWU+a0kDki2UrA3qA0DAbYzha9LYpCasL /kU9Zw0zoNbZInmTytZ+JWn7zOqpkr8eWy3+E0ittxTSCbYjCuVO6zEERXKg4JTx vkrcujpApJYkpI5EAvC30oSHuol/FQ== =5z83 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 28 03:33:45 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 May 2018 07:33:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51510 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fNCf3-0005Mn-KU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 03:33:45 -0400 Received: from petton.fr ([89.234.186.68]:44736) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fNCf2-0005MW-06 for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 03:33:44 -0400 From: Nicolas Petton To: Eli Zaretskii , ttn@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' In-Reply-To: <8736ycjl80.fsf@petton.fr> References: <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83a7sl845z.fsf@gnu.org> <83603983qb.fsf@gnu.org> <8736ycjl80.fsf@petton.fr> Date: Mon, 28 May 2018 09:33:35 +0200 Message-ID: <87wovoi69c.fsf@petton.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=petton.fr; s=mail; t=1527492818; bh=VZyieyLXu8dppGS2c+d5vi0LILhcr5yZUKgqGMfULJs=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=g7DbdIS+k2nt9In76O5t3GdsuCCu6sjnPqx83BQIcnA6k/BlLRGc1pwnCUTDtL3RrKbcYB7Ue7MaR3h4+zcULczhqG005jpG5pRBPHy0v53lR+WXed6uOao7HGKYQk7MIGeEkoOvldwOuLK2n0f/7+PNQzpuiOIrCJUnKFIGfdo= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Nicolas Petton writes: > The commit the release tarball points to is pushed, so I can still push > the the tag, which whill be one commit behind in the emacs-26 branch. > > I can also rebuild the tarball, it's up to you. However I set the release date to today in the tarball, so if we decide to release the current tarball, it has to be done today. Nico --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE1AWqLIYsVPF+7mvg6LzXhmr8+XgFAlsLsM8ACgkQ6LzXhmr8 +Xjt0AgA1cWe+yfEm3zbOfYNqy7Qh2GXQfh1Src6jONKSRKHiEK78b9VPJ9LO697 ROSvq9guadfZTM/IzSqSct6xeXInBHOmGlQOqzSJmEfNZ722kv0vBuRRwSZg9Xdz p6qMfBNjhyeJy3KPEut78XWd7KaEQqELnSKtItFp610k0nXD6xBMKPhcmbvQL869 wkykG75WvutqOqkm0eRaFizi3IzY0wrTWydKQlDKFRaQBlurHtjxeyymJU9BDxpE R/p7npFT5aH9wc0spbHBSWsxuMKK4rp5muZJw6wFvwz0agpXXok93lYZvkREo8DS 0yfNeGcjqB+oOpNX6WWoGlZMemNheg== =FDFb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 28 04:28:09 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 May 2018 08:28:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51585 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fNDVg-0006mS-Tm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 04:28:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:57063) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fNDVe-0006mF-W7 for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 04:28:07 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fNDVW-0000if-It for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 04:28:01 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:34301) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fNDVN-0000ap-Et; Mon, 28 May 2018 04:27:49 -0400 Received: from [176.12.184.127] (port=56451 helo=[10.160.63.128]) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fNDVM-0002F2-I0; Mon, 28 May 2018 04:27:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 May 2018 11:27:44 +0300 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <8736ycjl80.fsf@petton.fr> References: <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83a7sl845z.fsf@gnu.org> <83603983qb.fsf@gnu.org> <8736ycjl80.fsf@petton.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' To: Nicolas Petton ,ttn@gnu.org From: Eli Zaretskii Message-ID: <44713374-24CF-42E2-944B-5DE979D5AE3C@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.0 (------) On May 28, 2018 10:25:03 AM GMT+03:00, Nicolas Petton = wrote: > Eli Zaretskii writes: >=20 > > And I see that you already pushed without waiting for a response to > > your question :-( > > > > Nicolas, what does this mean for the tarball you prepared? You > didn't > > yet push the 26=2E1 tag, so do we revert the commit, or re-do the > > tarball, or do something else? >=20 > The commit the release tarball points to is pushed, so I can still > push > the the tag, which whill be one commit behind in the emacs-26 branch=2E >=20 > I can also rebuild the tarball, it's up to you=2E >=20 > Cheers, > Nico If there are no complications with the tag, let's release the tarball you = have=2E Thanks=2E From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 28 05:32:59 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 May 2018 09:32:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51615 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fNEWR-0008IK-49 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 05:32:59 -0400 Received: from petton.fr ([89.234.186.68]:54338) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fNEWP-0008I8-ST for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 05:32:58 -0400 From: Nicolas Petton To: Eli Zaretskii , ttn@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' In-Reply-To: <44713374-24CF-42E2-944B-5DE979D5AE3C@gnu.org> References: <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83a7sl845z.fsf@gnu.org> <83603983qb.fsf@gnu.org> <8736ycjl80.fsf@petton.fr> <44713374-24CF-42E2-944B-5DE979D5AE3C@gnu.org> Date: Mon, 28 May 2018 11:32:48 +0200 Message-ID: <87r2lwi0qn.fsf@petton.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=petton.fr; s=mail; t=1527499971; bh=l30et3AxIgo4i7316yFQmMH0m/bYbvN57rVdtxJ3G0A=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=GNqhkPrU5BJu3NLWzlOGuFc9PML0YZDgLt5qwOo/JNWz8Yc4qmJBOCC07350Bgih8AePiS+4ZGC7rhhQ3gWvhKZLnHoqvxMUD/Uc4hXSJiTMpsa4N3XK5Xjv4GvwCNEBwFGfqKrYKpKmRSSoALJUmPZgbJA/ck+83+ZuN+lz1MI= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Eli Zaretskii writes: > If there are no complications with the tag, let's release the tarball > you have. Ok, I'll push and announce it this afternoon! Cheers, Nico --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE1AWqLIYsVPF+7mvg6LzXhmr8+XgFAlsLzMAACgkQ6LzXhmr8 +Xj7oQgA0RR4b9xQYaSIfPdG5tZOcABUVp9/mIZS5yS35hfm05OXtnDtYS0T2P0s GHCWZ9r1p/fQ5nSnbOdP/PPlwAsRGzW3i6K9xhn/ACUw9NR5l75IAQ152TwuOusG c7LjBqFsOg/5SyipBYklyS+j5ScO2q2Jhe1I8/ZIO2pIFcnC2TgQ3z+gmRTnwaBb m7LWNOSgOBlhg3duUU891Jy63+/EuSNctPNWp9DN3RXFol5+iFNUI1HvGVlz6aZA Fmh0ZGZTo2lne3geaJjlU/dgO6KCz5jEmJd8sNVGGP8qE1y7/XJvFkjoo/9gZ1eZ KCcFCcOmOvmGVwFmOBtd8NkiQBwx8A== =zBcD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon May 28 13:20:40 2018 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 May 2018 17:20:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52679 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fNLp2-0004l3-ID for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 13:20:40 -0400 Received: from mail.agora-net.com ([67.59.132.6]:47581) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fNLp1-0004kw-EI for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 May 2018 13:20:39 -0400 Received: from ttn by mail.agora-net.com with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fNLoz-00060M-9Z; Mon, 28 May 2018 13:20:37 -0400 Received: from ttn by zigzag.favinet with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1fMzgP-0007xy-FV; Sun, 27 May 2018 19:42:17 +0200 From: Thien-Thi Nguyen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' In-Reply-To: <83603983qb.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 27 May 2018 19:26:04 +0300") References: <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83zi1kqynx.fsf@gnu.org> <871seh3yw8.fsf@gnuvola.org> <877eo9kmid.fsf@web.de> <87y3gl574j.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87po1xc5lb.fsf@web.de> <87muwz6ftl.fsf@gnuvola.org> <874lj7r5mx.fsf@web.de> <878t8e2lw1.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83in7ecrxo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2m22ndx.fsf@gnuvola.org> <87tvqwfxzv.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu2e23jy.fsf@gnuvola.org> <33cb1c7a-38a2-4d74-a266-51be5b636552@default> <87r2lxzew6.fsf@gnuvola.org> <83a7sl845z.fsf@gnu.org> <83603983qb.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 19:42:08 +0200 Message-ID: <87tvqtxafj.fsf@gnuvola.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ttn@gnuvola.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on mail.agora-net.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: nicolas@petton.fr, 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable () Eli Zaretskii () Sun, 27 May 2018 19:26:04 +0300 And I see that you already pushed without waiting for a response to your question :-( No worries if it misses 26.1 and goes into 26.2. I.e., "don't move the tag" is fine by me. =2D-=20 Thien-Thi Nguyen ----------------------------------------------- (defun responsep (query) ; (2018) Software Libero (pcase (context query) ; =3D Dissenso Etico (`(technical ,ml) (correctp ml)) ...)) 748E A0E8 1CB8 A748 9BFA =2D-------------------------------------- 6CE4 6703 2224 4C80 7502 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlsK7fMACgkQZwMiJEyAdQIo2gCdGvqLwEimvSaUTq4yPva+rnFb C+cAoN4xSLpj9OOCbs0vPwnVL89P6hW4 =BLes -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 25 08:56:36 2019 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Aug 2019 12:56:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43728 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i1s4S-0006F6-3J for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 08:56:36 -0400 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:53977) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1i1s4Q-0006Et-AN for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 08:56:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1566737782; bh=d8R0CjzxznY+uToujpD75Wwv19IsFTizyKjWUYJ4lHs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=g2G4MyZcksnenXwmEevkjXf9h+k//LhBL+D1xZGVyKp+yKotOGaWQJ3QWfKC+Vd1P N+f0O9lmzJ9yNLdr6MxxCtpJy+hPKsDNuuU2cgIqEaZVFjX7PdrTuAlLdcnbLvelvf 58jXq7945hEh97WaPiNJZ2RKXoAWou/E5ciYi2Nk= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([217.247.64.181]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb101 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M3Bhz-1iKDth1IIh-00suOl; Sun, 25 Aug 2019 14:56:22 +0200 From: Michael Heerdegen To: Thien-Thi Nguyen Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: <83wowqrmp8.fsf@gnu.org> <87efixlv8g.fsf@web.de> <83muxlsvfm.fsf@gnu.org> <871sexlqvw.fsf@web.de> <83k1sps9n3.fsf@gnu.org> <87wowpndoo.fsf@gmail.com> <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 14:56:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87fu3c6cm3.fsf@gnuvola.org> (Thien-Thi Nguyen's message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:35:32 +0200") Message-ID: <875zmlflor.fsf@web.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:1L2GnjIvO/SW9qyqtedt1hkRkj46r96xmB8LnAsOnxSBAbsnUiE FVoITwzGZ0jcXmwIf3DmNz5NFZJLZWmldJG67LLwcvUemUduBPB5Fso2E5bwoVUcQonPqVA WIyEgJbkkN9SGcg6Tl6vdJ/pHPOE8j/v8sTxrUY98Ttrwf9BGhkI2lXUma+8NYisxzJHNhl DXmumOKG2/INAe0MmwVhQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:uXHIFLC26HU=:I043p8nY1MGbGONBcys1HK JS0h+XHv4QZD7qR8Gs+bT3nW1BiR+JdcLFR+buGpFNZTp1M6SYFJJSN6mYg9Tqh8BBcAXTvHG AFq4jEYzkkbqdpBd/qdNbhihh4wIsVY/+LHVB+oPPZ+56209KA78xAfPSIHRLeLiIkciF0Fds KrMtmK46czLUJMyn3m1L0IBRX9zByXNbvX9s6gn453ZvSqKYaIX2ttaJoHwLx03y69dK8H4VH oY6uXazJecogEgdv1Mzs4mFhblHU9eZzGxQ/D3jW6mlOuBw3AJRi8CxwFvjuegDuHCZa8BI0A d4QYiOuoEFi0StABSgUsNzJeXnp6Nae/SZ9XTMtT+Vmt42VKH4Ck7PZdMlbhDorCu+lrxKxes vo5DlhlGGRjfhN6E4n9RW9iu93Xtfar5cYF0jrtWLb4W8CjmjIaADQXLkgG7i7DBqAHhasQmn hIVqAkcq88Dz9upn3oa864FxjicCl4J9o8blFgcidkBJEFox4Zi2HQkucduu0E5Ry9WrH2imG iEze39vhB0M/3ZrTwhUDdU2lLfNYhyssMvNWgRza9IHlARKj6+UqZZmLYBCkXeTRmZPZrHrid CZ1wa8jIi+4vi/9uEGSJN0RHjxVl4oiovbWlE2sZzCpAGV0HMfa5GhqtGSQz18vywxdYvbh8P nwDC1IEtF0etF3DS974BbM8a0igY0axWGxdtedCHJ7uNDz4VQRBH2aLJEfaPEkYev1dkRtpqN iijhWC8J/Ms0RtyRbXetHvn38QFfWztXPNJ78wWEyoK51B1+4b2onRAto4bQO+fKaGpppYL0p gUnmLighxcTU+gNiYv4T93kwQG4Cxij57a2gbjxASG8p2+G14Ub8t3M5ScIFiCOBMnPaI3r5y bs7ZvXyz3BmhhD1XQ3m40+AQjikrreAgF87p/dJeSiEvxWLG12X0ihAbQSPA1EIM5uGfnSFYc deZIIhA4y6Sv1+jjmw8o/rPMvKgxTtXF/aBdEnSsQLQStvTkR8R4xYHZwo1m/MDHv/EWZEWfn gAvIJ07rtPzjtmGvSmcZTyJGR+ZJ1z4LXQllUuVvGRtsNNQ9xhYGnQEbqdHGvc2HokUTtPqFz rq2ZoYwHQV69r5+ilKcTBuX+5iqt2mW5ofMoYYYaQ0Ye1VsMs5u7yD85B5mqLAipPHX9OJYmT deM+oReiCAoyRlgcTbx5E+7PIPtDVmZrSYjRU5ZhJ/TWDwXZ/XgQEiMNB0Y9cJRnbr/yg= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: Noam Postavsky , 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hi, one thing I want to improve in the current docstring is the following detail: FUN in `pred' and `app' can take one of the forms: SYMBOL or (lambda ARGS BODY) call it with one argument [...] This doesn't tell which binding of SYMBOL is used (value vs. function binding), but I think it should. AFAICT only the function binding matters, so we just could say "FBOUND-SYMBOL" instead of "SYMBOL". Or something better? Thanks, Michael. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 29 09:49:09 2022 Received: (at 31311) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2022 13:49:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51311 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nkQzc-00045e-To for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:49:09 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:38036) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nkQza-000453-BX for 31311@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:49:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=AKudUXvfGvHAp8SspsNzMXPFA3dmmLh3dYtvgkx6NAc=; b=aJMYQ9hB1Ur1wmJaJYFGkUHw24 q+cc4tEGVdbad2gt69hdgl35rAS8QyDrg86UoQTeYUjDZyiGXr4bkuOcuxgEMlIQZQtdBLQplzR5c lpVhZK6In/CbAqxe/4JpkujaJSUIj0ACDAerqPKwBcVxOXaxNqcqs0FxEHKQf3A11wXs=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nkQzQ-0000lK-Rl; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:48:59 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#31311: 27.0; doc of `pcase' References: X-Now-Playing: Was (Not Was)'s _Mutant Disco Vol 4_: "Shake Your Head (Let's Go To Bed ReMix)" Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:48:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:03:32 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <8735hwdmpj.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: This bug report pointed out a lot of things that could be improved in the pcase documentation. The documentation was largely rewritten a bit later, and skimming this thread, it seems like the major ob [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: 31311@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) This bug report pointed out a lot of things that could be improved in the pcase documentation. The documentation was largely rewritten a bit later, and skimming this thread, it seems like the major objections were all handled, so I'm closing this bug report. If there are any remaining issues, opening a new bug report for those issues would be the way forward. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 29 09:49:13 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2022 13:49:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51314 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nkQzh-00045v-5R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:49:13 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:38052) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nkQzd-00045U-Q3 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 09:49:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=2XJfMIg6MshqE5mz0BHcYgR0f1vosMB4pzexP9NmQTs=; b=HV55c6ZW+YjQ3FfRjzhBm4ZMUg huQJ9t0UJhSRctcic7ol87uKgVuG5gEZaKd1OmOH/8eBgOrE88zrgr4lW0hyH8Jb8co1Wik5NjgYb sP9JcJU9Fy5xj+IpDZmBX+Hn99Rn/LpoDHFktTrgyTvFElG8yR1HZj8wq0wTE/mGp/xQ=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nkQzW-0000lX-2G for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:49:03 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:49:01 +0200 Message-Id: <871qxgdmpe.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #31311 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0fef4886-b9c3-4223-bc3d-08da29ee0cd6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Apr 2022 14:39:22.0388 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: a0J9YEWvPtglKyhvOaIwgQJ2RloPMmKA4mx3CjDa2QK5QAqrodS5TidZbygD6863SxoXchCmH5su2Xxl0mQQSg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR10MB4346 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.486, 18.0.858 definitions=2022-04-29_05:2022-04-28, 2022-04-29 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=667 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2202240000 definitions=main-2204290080 X-Proofpoint-GUID: P50bOhduMJDxO7Xuag0UXCmyXjcAtVhs X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: P50bOhduMJDxO7Xuag0UXCmyXjcAtVhs X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 31311 Cc: "31311@debbugs.gnu.org" <31311@debbugs.gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > This bug report pointed out a lot of things that=20 > could be improved in the pcase documentation. Of course. Glad you recognize that there are so many things wrong with that doc - lots of things that _need_ improving. And you're welcome for thanking me for having reported so many of them specifically. > The documentation was largely rewritten a bit > later, and skimming this thread, it seems like > the major objections were all handled, The point in specifying particular problems, as opposed to just tossing out "major objections", is to help get the doc fixed in those many ways. > so I'm closing this bug report. Does the doc now respond to all of the cited needs and deficiencies? If not, then the bug isn't fixed. If you don't keep it open so those can be fixed, then ... "wont fix". > If there are any remaining issues, opening a new > bug report for those issues would be the way forward. Then do that. If the bug isn't fixed then it isn't fixed. A new bug specifying what remains to be fixed is a fine idea. Please go for it. The way forward isn't just to ignore them and call the bug fixed. From unknown Fri Jun 20 07:15:25 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sat, 28 May 2022 11:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator