From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:06:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:17:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 30530 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.151905699412656 (code B ref -1); Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:17:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2018 16:16:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51487 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eno7G-0003I3-Gm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:16:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:47583) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eno7C-0003Hn-6R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:16:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eno76-0000zT-2d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:16:25 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:39848) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eno75-0000zP-Un for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:16:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38546) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eno74-0003gv-RN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:16:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eno71-0000xn-H6 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:16:22 -0500 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:43454) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eno71-0000wt-7S for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:16:19 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w1JGCXkQ052271 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:16:11 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=KjkMYI53Fy75UCZng+LPi+2McvfvgMLKbqxtRFtN01Y=; b=UQiNkusZYhb0EPRar29d9I+xfDZtTPiDd4u5Ea6J3pjAidheKaiNAr3Z5bVHrfhlJxKQ 6dtBvBfPtUkw+fr+2ESNtpizgeYp58CKGDIB9xhTfyqdE4jjbx9Zi0BtPgHL6QphXQ/G Yw8wSV+eNMz3KL+Qi+XZpIJqK/u81G4A6PkUc2ufeL1PbzXTI/o0HgGGahS+VEOhtfj3 HDhqKZxW5UKOR/FSVta0uD3Gvb3swOVwWmB+MDZhF4x+3UAYobRlZ6NashhUnudFMxVs pzBDX0FxDjkB/fgLI/VYLTKFI23xk58r0jEJ4ilSDQTlEJ/brp+5nGO6MLw72X3V83qi lA== Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2g818f871w-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:16:11 +0000 Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w1JGGAZY026388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:16:10 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w1JGG9sD003406 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:16:09 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:16:09 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4654.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8808 signatures=668674 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=1 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1802190201 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) Following up on the request by Nicolas Goaziou in bug #28263, please consider adding some information about the keys that users can bind. Please: 1. Say that Emacs and 3rd-party Lisp libraries often bind keys, but that some keys are specifically reserved, by convention, for users. Point out which keys are reserved for users. 2. Make it clear that users can, in any case, bind ANY keys they want; they are not limited to binding user-reserved keys. In particular, users can rebind keys that Emacs or some 3rd-party library has already bound. 3. State that after a user has bound a key, evaluating some Emacs code (including loading a Lisp library) might rebind that key if it is not reserved for users. This is the reason some keys are reserved for users: to prevent the bother of some non-user code overriding user key bindings. The keys reserved for users are currently specified only in the Elisp manual (node `Key Binding Conventions'). Please consider adding a link to that node from wherever the user-reserved keys will be called out in the Emacs manual. A likely location in the Emacs manual for such info would be somewhere under node `Customizing Key Bindings'. In GNU Emacs 26.0.91 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2018-01-22 Repository revision: 752fba992b793a74d202c9cfc3e1a92fd458e748 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:06:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 10:35:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 30530 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams , Nicolas Goaziou Cc: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 30530-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B30530.15194685009938 (code B ref 30530); Sat, 24 Feb 2018 10:35:02 +0000 Received: (at 30530) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Feb 2018 10:35:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58197 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1epXAS-0002aD-Kg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 05:35:00 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:35939) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1epXAR-0002a0-5Z for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 05:34:59 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1epXAI-0007zI-EV for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 05:34:53 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:34023) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1epXAI-0007yx-9v; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 05:34:50 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4696 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1epXAG-0003MI-KR; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 05:34:49 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:35:09 +0200 Message-Id: <83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from Drew Adams on Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:16:09 -0800 (PST)) References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:16:09 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > > Following up on the request by Nicolas Goaziou in bug #28263, please > consider adding some information about the keys that users can bind. I'm sorry, but I really don't understand the issue here, and I would prefer not to re-read the long discussion in that bug report (and expect not to be any wiser if I did). Can someone please summarize the issue at hand? > 1. Say that Emacs and 3rd-party Lisp libraries often bind keys, but that > some keys are specifically reserved, by convention, for users. Point > out which keys are reserved for users. Users can bind _any_ keys, as you yourself say: > 2. Make it clear that users can, in any case, bind ANY keys they want; > they are not limited to binding user-reserved keys. In particular, > users can rebind keys that Emacs or some 3rd-party library has already > bound. Given this, what good will it do to say something about keys reserved for users in the user manual? Lisp developers should know that, which is why i tis in the ELisp manual. > 3. State that after a user has bound a key, evaluating some Emacs code > (including loading a Lisp library) might rebind that key if it is not > reserved for users. This is the reason some keys are reserved for > users: to prevent the bother of some non-user code overriding user > key bindings. How would this help users? What would they do to avoid that? Bottom line, I don't really understand the issue you are asking to be solved. The bug report is phrased as a list of instructions to be executed, but that's not how bug reporting should work -- you should describe the problem itself as well. Thanks. From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:06:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 17:02:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 30530 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams , Nicolas Goaziou Cc: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 30530-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B30530.15194916642779 (code B ref 30530); Sat, 24 Feb 2018 17:02:01 +0000 Received: (at 30530) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Feb 2018 17:01:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58925 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1epdC4-0000il-Aa for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:01:04 -0500 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:52804) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1epdC1-0000iA-MN for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:01:02 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w1OGvsds154137; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 17:00:55 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=D1VGTkkg/Ndz3hh24qqMIjRnRQluQXCozoeMnYhoRpw=; b=Q6FkKU//ZhNNcBe+6JtxZuJ55HCuP2Aryh1UUSkCgS7jbX7OarOq23qZbL/+PViP+aHg QDd6ccj3pvkIP0xR/YaiBGERKvdF/fBYq7Dbw7jzAQTQ5N7F+O9xa6Lx/Uj8czOhPBxG Y6f04u2YZ47cx+73IIl+GdoTS/lgtsXk0lraF3jVCRSvsdfdq0H0rbbKwXS4xazsgPQW Wv/jlPcYfoenLhb6N1zFsPupvKEUJBCr4rxQbvFyq2vxvn12d+y5Ij5wseUr69a83rn0 9vmChUP04XQaK6kYpQMmOSKtTKkcEWS0XG07FURwMTAiaKBWMySAObQZ//eYtr+28G6k Pw== Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2gbbq580v9-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 24 Feb 2018 17:00:55 +0000 Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w1OH0scK003752 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Feb 2018 17:00:54 GMT Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w1OH0qcZ002541; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 17:00:53 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:00:51 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <> <<83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4654.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8814 signatures=668680 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1802240225 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > > Following up on the request by Nicolas Goaziou in bug #28263, please > > consider adding some information about the keys that users can bind. >=20 > I'm sorry, but I really don't understand the issue here, and I would > prefer not to re-read the long discussion in that bug report (and > expect not to be any wiser if I did). Can someone please summarize > the issue at hand? >=20 > > 1. Say that Emacs and 3rd-party Lisp libraries often bind keys, but tha= t > > some keys are specifically reserved, by convention, for users. Poin= t > > out which keys are reserved for users. >=20 > Users can bind _any_ keys, as you yourself say: But some users do not know that. Telling them that explicitly in the Emacs manual can help make it clear. > > 2. Make it clear that users can, in any case, bind ANY keys they want; > > they are not limited to binding user-reserved keys. In particular, > > users can rebind keys that Emacs or some 3rd-party library has alrea= dy > > bound. >=20 > Given this, what good will it do to say something about keys reserved > for users in the user manual? Lisp developers should know that, which > is why it is in the ELisp manual. Some users do not know that these are the "safest" keys to bind, because they are reserved for users. Knowing that can help them by focusing them on those keys, which are less likely to be in conflict with libraries. > > 3. State that after a user has bound a key, evaluating some Emacs code > > (including loading a Lisp library) might rebind that key if it is no= t > > reserved for users. This is the reason some keys are reserved for > > users: to prevent the bother of some non-user code overriding user > > key bindings. >=20 > How would this help users? What would they do to avoid that? It's not about avoiding it. It's about making users aware of how it works. They can act with more confidence and less confusion if they know that some keys are reserved for them and other keys they might bind risk being overridden by loading a library or turning on a mode. Less surprise and pondering "WTF is going on?". > Bottom line, I don't really understand the issue you are asking to be > solved. Did you check bug #28263? > The bug report is phrased as a list of instructions to be > executed, but that's not how bug reporting should work -- you should > describe the problem itself as well. The problem is that users do not necessarily have a good idea what keys they can bind (answer: any keys) and which keys Lisp libraries are likely to bind (answer: keys not reserved=20 or users). Users have been known to ask about such things. Stating clearly in the Emacs manual what the case is in this regard can help users - see above. If you still do not get it, and you still do not want to look at bug #28263, then feel free to close this bug. This bug report doesn't ask for a lot. It would be enough to state these two things in the Emacs manual: 1. That some keys are reserved for users, so that if you bind those there is little chance that if you later load some library or turn on a mode you will seem to lose those bindings you made. 2. You can nevertheless bind any keys. Just be aware of #1, so you are not surprised if some non-reserved key you have bound seems to have somehow later become co-opted. The keys that are reserved for users could be listed/described, or the Emacs manual could just link to their description in the Elisp manual. Users should have _some_ easy way of knowing which keys are reserved for their use. From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:06:36 2025 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505) X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org From: help-debbugs@gnu.org (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Drew Adams Subject: bug#30530: closed (Re: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys) Message-ID: References: <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org> X-Gnu-PR-Message: they-closed 30530 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 17:45:02 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1519494302-6672-1" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1519494302-6672-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Your bug report #30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can b= ind any keys which was filed against the emacs package, has been closed. The explanation is attached below, along with your original report. If you require more details, please reply to 30530@debbugs.gnu.org. --=20 30530: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D30530 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@gnu.org with problems ------------=_1519494302-6672-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at 30530-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Feb 2018 17:44:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58947 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1epds8-0001ir-Ih for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:44:32 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:50927) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1epds6-0001ie-Uf for 30530-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:44:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1epdry-0000fx-GX for 30530-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:44:25 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:38925) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1epdry-0000fq-D3; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:44:22 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2055 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1epdrx-000682-R1; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:44:22 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:44:18 +0200 Message-Id: <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> (message from Drew Adams on Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:00:51 -0800 (PST)) Subject: Re: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys References: <> <<83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org>> <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 30530-done Cc: 30530-done@debbugs.gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:00:51 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org > > The problem is that users do not necessarily have a good idea > what keys they can bind (answer: any keys) and which keys > Lisp libraries are likely to bind (answer: keys not reserved > or users). Users have been known to ask about such things. I added some text about the latter, although I seriously doubt that it will be discoverable enough to make any difference. As for the former, the manual is full of examples using all kinds of keys in bindings (only one of them is from the reserved area, btw), so it should be pretty clear that there are limitations on that. ------------=_1519494302-6672-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2018 16:16:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51487 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eno7G-0003I3-Gm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:16:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:47583) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eno7C-0003Hn-6R for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:16:30 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eno76-0000zT-2d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:16:25 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:39848) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eno75-0000zP-Un for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:16:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38546) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eno74-0003gv-RN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:16:23 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eno71-0000xn-H6 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:16:22 -0500 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:43454) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eno71-0000wt-7S for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:16:19 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w1JGCXkQ052271 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:16:11 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=KjkMYI53Fy75UCZng+LPi+2McvfvgMLKbqxtRFtN01Y=; b=UQiNkusZYhb0EPRar29d9I+xfDZtTPiDd4u5Ea6J3pjAidheKaiNAr3Z5bVHrfhlJxKQ 6dtBvBfPtUkw+fr+2ESNtpizgeYp58CKGDIB9xhTfyqdE4jjbx9Zi0BtPgHL6QphXQ/G Yw8wSV+eNMz3KL+Qi+XZpIJqK/u81G4A6PkUc2ufeL1PbzXTI/o0HgGGahS+VEOhtfj3 HDhqKZxW5UKOR/FSVta0uD3Gvb3swOVwWmB+MDZhF4x+3UAYobRlZ6NashhUnudFMxVs pzBDX0FxDjkB/fgLI/VYLTKFI23xk58r0jEJ4ilSDQTlEJ/brp+5nGO6MLw72X3V83qi lA== Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2g818f871w-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:16:11 +0000 Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w1JGGAZY026388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:16:10 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w1JGG9sD003406 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:16:09 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:16:09 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4654.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8808 signatures=668674 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=1 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1802190201 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) Following up on the request by Nicolas Goaziou in bug #28263, please consider adding some information about the keys that users can bind. Please: 1. Say that Emacs and 3rd-party Lisp libraries often bind keys, but that some keys are specifically reserved, by convention, for users. Point out which keys are reserved for users. 2. Make it clear that users can, in any case, bind ANY keys they want; they are not limited to binding user-reserved keys. In particular, users can rebind keys that Emacs or some 3rd-party library has already bound. 3. State that after a user has bound a key, evaluating some Emacs code (including loading a Lisp library) might rebind that key if it is not reserved for users. This is the reason some keys are reserved for users: to prevent the bother of some non-user code overriding user key bindings. The keys reserved for users are currently specified only in the Elisp manual (node `Key Binding Conventions'). Please consider adding a link to that node from wherever the user-reserved keys will be called out in the Emacs manual. A likely location in the Emacs manual for such info would be somewhere under node `Customizing Key Bindings'. In GNU Emacs 26.0.91 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2018-01-22 Repository revision: 752fba992b793a74d202c9cfc3e1a92fd458e748 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' ------------=_1519494302-6672-1-- From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:06:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Resent-From: Nicolas Goaziou Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 21:28:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 30530 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 30530-done@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 30530-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D30530.151950767426263 (code D ref 30530); Sat, 24 Feb 2018 21:28:02 +0000 Received: (at 30530-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Feb 2018 21:27:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59100 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ephMI-0006pX-AR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:27:54 -0500 Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.195]:41063) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ephMG-0006pP-Ap for 30530-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:27:52 -0500 Received: from saiph (00004301584731203741b516.ipv6.commingeshautdebit.fr [IPv6:2a03:a0a0:0:4301:5847:3120:3741:b516]) (Authenticated sender: admin@nicolasgoaziou.fr) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 95677A80C8; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 22:27:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from ngz by saiph with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ephMC-0002cY-8k; Sat, 24 Feb 2018 22:27:48 +0100 From: Nicolas Goaziou In-Reply-To: <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 24 Feb 2018 19:44:18 +0200") References: > <83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org>> <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (gnu/linux) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 22:27:48 +0100 Message-ID: <87zi3y13jf.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Hello, Eli Zaretskii writes: > I added some text about the latter, although I seriously doubt that it > will be discoverable enough to make any difference. Thank you. For good measure, could you also add a @cindex about it? E.g, @cindex user reserved key bindings For reference, this bug report stems from the following part of the Org manual: For a better experience, the three Org commands ~org-store-link~, ~org-capture~ and ~org-agenda~ ought to be accessible anywhere in Emacs, not just in Org buffers. To that effect, you need to bind them to globally available keys, like the ones reserved for users (see [[info:elisp::Key%20Binding%20Conventions]]). Here are suggested bindings, please modify the keys to your own liking. #+begin_src emacs-lisp (global-set-key "\C-cl" 'org-store-link) (global-set-key "\C-ca" 'org-agenda) (global-set-key "\C-cc" 'org-capture) #+end_src Drew pointed out that suggesting to bind user reserved keys was almost as if we were binding them. I can hear that argument, and would happily stop the paragraph at "globally available keys". However, I have the feeling this deserves a cross-reference, and an appendix in the Elisp manual doesn't sound like an appropriate location. Regards, -- Nicolas Goaziou 0x80A93738 From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:06:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2018 15:45:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 30530 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Nicolas Goaziou Cc: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 30530-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B30530.151991907010996 (code B ref 30530); Thu, 01 Mar 2018 15:45:02 +0000 Received: (at 30530) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Mar 2018 15:44:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39482 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erQNi-0002rI-9l for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 10:44:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:35177) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erQNh-0002r6-8i for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 10:44:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1erQNX-0003BT-W5 for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 10:44:24 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:55007) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1erQNX-0003BH-Rl; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 10:44:19 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4685 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1erQNW-00042e-Dm; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 10:44:19 -0500 Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2018 17:44:29 +0200 Message-Id: <83d10nyf4y.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <87zi3y13jf.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> (message from Nicolas Goaziou on Sat, 24 Feb 2018 22:27:48 +0100) References: > <83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org>> <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org> <87zi3y13jf.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > From: Nicolas Goaziou > Cc: Drew Adams , 30530-done@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 22:27:48 +0100 > > For good measure, could you also add a @cindex about it? E.g, > > @cindex user reserved key bindings Starting an index entry with "user" is not a good idea, as it's too general a word. I added "reserved key bindings" instead. > For a better experience, the three Org commands ~org-store-link~, > ~org-capture~ and ~org-agenda~ ought to be accessible anywhere in > Emacs, not just in Org buffers. To that effect, you need to bind them > to globally available keys, like the ones reserved for users (see > [[info:elisp::Key%20Binding%20Conventions]]). Here are suggested > bindings, please modify the keys to your own liking. > > #+begin_src emacs-lisp > (global-set-key "\C-cl" 'org-store-link) > (global-set-key "\C-ca" 'org-agenda) > (global-set-key "\C-cc" 'org-capture) > #+end_src > > Drew pointed out that suggesting to bind user reserved keys was almost > as if we were binding them. I disagree with Drew. By that logic, no one can ever say anything about binding these keys, and they must always remain unbound, which of course would defeat the reason for reserving them. From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:06:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2018 17:32:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 30530 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Nicolas Goaziou Cc: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com Received: via spool by 30530-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B30530.151992550128532 (code B ref 30530); Thu, 01 Mar 2018 17:32:01 +0000 Received: (at 30530) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Mar 2018 17:31:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39577 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erS3Q-0007Q8-SA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 12:31:41 -0500 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:49550) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erS3O-0007Ps-DE for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 12:31:38 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w21HVNaS005000; Thu, 1 Mar 2018 17:31:31 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=nTWn1PLbPPgQa3SjlZZSzEF6TaidVa4EDOUY++UFN3c=; b=UiE02zE34wxemFLKsskYMMkRDVURNaTRF0JSzXEXdrWCUMkbmNl5st4DPDUneoglFTwt XLNtjDetJ5SMtyOeO2QB3jY37hMD7YyhUILF1rwYMDuHFsJv3Z44iEZoSH0qGV1T/7o+ eDjI0QyzqK49dquya7RiVkJ/lJYXMFakArxaEgRsokYx76wkzc2TlJQhQe0wwaFQyqQS LnTJVszQTu1+aZqPz3/PfNBvBJQJUE/tIUcN/h6E8cBgA8HAfV8xy6e2dVBPxZTG+GDQ TwjHM/ohOv2/tPc3dskbyHEZKgY16XBINg/NgSmlgu+Sfqfb9HOdDSzTRiq6pRRZwQ9u Cw== Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2gencrgaj7-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 01 Mar 2018 17:31:29 +0000 Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w21HVGWv009394 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Mar 2018 17:31:16 GMT Received: from abhmp0015.oracle.com (abhmp0015.oracle.com [141.146.116.21]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w21HVFMP001564; Thu, 1 Mar 2018 17:31:15 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <92c8fd97-8e96-4e2b-8706-f5ca97869912@default> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 09:31:13 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <> <83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org>> <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org>> <<87zi3y13jf.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>> <<83d10nyf4y.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83d10nyf4y.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4654.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8819 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1803010217 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > > Drew pointed out that suggesting to bind user reserved keys was almost > > as if we were binding them. >=20 > I disagree with Drew. By that logic, no one can ever say anything > about binding these keys, and they must always remain unbound, which > of course would defeat the reason for reserving them. No. This is about a library - and in particular an extremely widely used library, perhaps _the most popular_ Emacs library - recommending that users globally bind a whole set of user-reserved keys to commands for use only by that library. And yes that is pretty much tantamount, in practice, to that library globally binding those keys by default. Your claim that if a library doesn't suggest that users sacrifice their reserved keys for that library then _no user will ever bind such keys_ is, well, preposterous. That doesn't follow at all. Talk about "by that logic..."! The Emacs doc makes clear that these keys are reserved for users. Users do not need a library to instruct them to co-opt the keys for its use. Without such "help" users will continue, just fine, to bind such keys for whatever uses they like - as they always have. For Org to say that for best use/experience Emacs recommends that you globally bind these N keys to Org commands works against their reservation for users, as a practical matter. Some (many?) users, especially newbies, may well blindly follow such a bogus "best use" recommendation. I'm surprised that you would endorse this. There is no need for it, and it is not helpful. From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:06:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2018 19:23:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 30530 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 30530-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B30530.151993213813880 (code B ref 30530); Thu, 01 Mar 2018 19:23:02 +0000 Received: (at 30530) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Mar 2018 19:22:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39718 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erTmT-0003bn-My for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 14:22:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:39532) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erTmR-0003ba-Jr for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 14:22:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1erTmI-0006ox-PA for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 14:22:10 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:59619) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1erTmI-0006or-LT; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 14:22:06 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4839 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1erTmI-0003do-2h; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 14:22:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2018 21:22:18 +0200 Message-Id: <831sh3y51x.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: <92c8fd97-8e96-4e2b-8706-f5ca97869912@default> (message from Drew Adams on Thu, 1 Mar 2018 09:31:13 -0800 (PST)) References: <> <83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org>> <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org>> <<87zi3y13jf.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>> <<83d10nyf4y.fsf@gnu.org>> <92c8fd97-8e96-4e2b-8706-f5ca97869912@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 09:31:13 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, 30530@debbugs.gnu.org > > The Emacs doc makes clear that these keys are reserved for users. Being reserved means that users can bind them. > Users do not need a library to instruct them to co-opt the keys for > its use. No, it's not a library that "instructs" them, it's a document that tells them they could bind these keys for their own convenience. > I'm surprised that you would endorse this. There is no > need for it, and it is not helpful. I think I'm entitled to my opinions even if you consider them unhelpful (unhelpful to what, may I wonder?). From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:06:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Resent-From: Noam Postavsky Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2018 19:31:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 30530 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 30530-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B30530.151993263014703 (code B ref 30530); Thu, 01 Mar 2018 19:31:02 +0000 Received: (at 30530) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Mar 2018 19:30:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39737 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erTuQ-0003p5-Jd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 14:30:30 -0500 Received: from mail-ot0-f170.google.com ([74.125.82.170]:39992) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erTuP-0003os-8V for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 14:30:29 -0500 Received: by mail-ot0-f170.google.com with SMTP id l12so6640824otj.7 for <30530@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 11:30:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=joPQDeKBpHJIFHYDEYfkD7NWDO6TJLDcfa6oonXxZNQ=; b=AHGUTVjmRFBXee7odzea2n4BnEFRuoVVGbe2ZixSnmRoJZauje3rHWbtoAxxZec3j7 R0c0pgFiexUvSwA1lyO/Xg991YbS4QGV0V8j2bN8UNv7ceMOYHn5IxC57FYT/31BXHKL C6U+5uJofcq4QRkdLihvG5E6KILeSW+iy6RtuA8OpTjkpciS7Tttj1VuH2/4zEA8xtAY XlP3rpZ4u0LxJwcz8oS/LFV26KOr1H12GCkiCU/2dy+Dstxg+5Ke4ETiag1Bs2p18ebz y4SNJqXHr/t+ul9DrqY4QiJPna9mQGamCAWkaTV0z4Gu8FZSXqwfziL66ubaF57ZauTS ssWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=joPQDeKBpHJIFHYDEYfkD7NWDO6TJLDcfa6oonXxZNQ=; b=kLHVfT1MzfsrPkwmVyRBjDupaZTIB4ozGnTkRjcu6LmKLYXfPQp3hiHYMvB/WOvHhf m9fK7UBh9V+NYIOa0SXPQx/IPhhNdNWBk4SZOFYhiNvnbsF9yEWXJL9L8bGHj530qsk3 PW5uYyXyFB6EEW99Y5bxTS6oOXcL4COQSo4GD0gJDkEy23+ST0JgVgDgAuI035wYVPam OjEXZpV4Wicz0U+e7q01C1EgoN8zK8yWTC938jTe+ldRQijpIa3h/l2oQbHA7PlRGgjP Zn1VEx1u7/5Xmc8+OmeKED2DX2DDX1AW+rCTcM1g7VrTlQ3aGsoQJEqPtKoaiiop6hgT TNcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7H8wTvzdpMrKxCUBslknbfyTwH7GDrZaB1oua8l5b1HkIngRS23 WqgqAdA29gVPbFBj2f0HvVOML7L8kEOy1Qgo52U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELuwu9taRAlbp/sffHkU80FqS15PMF66rt5OiGjBO4ZtKdoB1YBWS+CRA1dm0c2AFmkyWi0ULJhCrkSnCVHFIpQ= X-Received: by 10.157.0.152 with SMTP id w24mr2323559oti.196.1519932623558; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 11:30:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.74.59.65 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Mar 2018 11:30:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <831sh3y51x.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org> <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org> <92c8fd97-8e96-4e2b-8706-f5ca97869912@default> <831sh3y51x.fsf@gnu.org> From: Noam Postavsky Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 14:30:23 -0500 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 2:22 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> I'm surprised that you would endorse this. There is no >> need for it, and it is not helpful. > > I think I'm entitled to my opinions even if you consider them > unhelpful (unhelpful to what, may I wonder?). I think "it" referred to the org manual suggesting to bind reserved keys, not your endorsement or opinions. From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:06:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2018 21:01:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 30530 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Cc: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr Received: via spool by 30530-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B30530.151993805222548 (code B ref 30530); Thu, 01 Mar 2018 21:01:02 +0000 Received: (at 30530) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Mar 2018 21:00:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39780 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erVJr-0005rb-9P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 16:00:52 -0500 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:60926) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erVJo-0005rM-Fb for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 16:00:49 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w21L03P8158725; Thu, 1 Mar 2018 21:00:42 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=yk3T2AkVeVT7kZtYjjZDT9bchF2Op0Ah1KB/r+PZErY=; b=GqBHoN+FBi8XwzaqwWfnfEjEw2KfF1mbrDjMSTaZzasl2pISqPHRi+lTYokgxoGbvYex 1PJkrIbKwpQgOeVUXyJOTmxpubH3ksgcqpTH4GP1XhM2j2mLIvSSdS6NYLlcmrBqWvBX YkClMqBFqxhnlwNHQAAlbSaXWLFg0dAuveWAuyesEN229E8UbBI97SURDsbmv9T1coe/ giBBTZxbr+NnVfdFdj3A4IYvBqLD/KXMyQxo0PrzpB2vXsXkKAJIpevjUmf3gP/H9soH NhgLMIB9oG0TmJ7J/NRy1gf16E1VA+w9YiYgIDtXhvNYKvQUfrMJ7Ht3scS1cbxk3y5i jQ== Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2ges23g049-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 01 Mar 2018 21:00:42 +0000 Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w21L0ff0029368 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Mar 2018 21:00:41 GMT Received: from abhmp0015.oracle.com (abhmp0015.oracle.com [141.146.116.21]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w21L0dEJ015008; Thu, 1 Mar 2018 21:00:40 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 13:00:37 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <<> <83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org>> <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org>>> <<<87zi3y13jf.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>>> <<<83d10nyf4y.fsf@gnu.org>>> <<92c8fd97-8e96-4e2b-8706-f5ca97869912@default>> <<831sh3y51x.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<831sh3y51x.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4654.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8819 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1803010256 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > > The Emacs doc makes clear that these keys are reserved for users. >=20 > Being reserved means that users can bind them. You keep repeating that, but it has never been in question. > > Users do not need a library to instruct them to co-opt > > the keys for its use. >=20 > No, it's not a library that "instructs" them, it's a document that > tells them they could bind these keys for their own convenience. We can perhaps agree to disagree about that, as well as perhaps about the likely result of users, particularly newbies, following that Org-doc recommendation. > > I'm surprised that you would endorse this. > > There is no need for it, and it is not helpful. >=20 > I think I'm entitled to my opinions Of course you are. No one said anything to the contrary. > even if you consider them unhelpful (unhelpful to what, > may I wonder?). Please read what I wrote. I did not say that your opinions are unhelpful. It is the practice that was the subject of bug #28263, and that you seem to endorse, that I said users do not need and is not helpful (for users, obviously). The Org doc does not need to recommend that users bind reserved user keys to Org commands, and doing so is (IMHO) unhelpful to users. Just one opinion, of course. From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:06:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Resent-From: Noam Postavsky Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2018 21:34:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 30530 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 30530@debbugs.gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr Received: via spool by 30530-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B30530.151993998925386 (code B ref 30530); Thu, 01 Mar 2018 21:34:02 +0000 Received: (at 30530) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Mar 2018 21:33:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39808 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erVp7-0006bO-70 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 16:33:09 -0500 Received: from mail-ot0-f181.google.com ([74.125.82.181]:46857) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erVp5-0006b7-Qi for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 16:33:08 -0500 Received: by mail-ot0-f181.google.com with SMTP id g97so6949411otg.13 for <30530@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 13:33:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=liZbiNNgso8F2OyFS/Zf5RGFL+YCQoUz0dsfZOxS3qQ=; b=UCJVnrabVRTBtwV62cLUYMNBpb0vyA+UtXlcIktQg66Riywi8eeHSAz6Zb4Ll3VxCw V7LL4HTLJTd6IOpYnuxZ9TADBvnUQTgu9v9ijhLegCespEIaWzZItvikh+gMIzyqrq3p gVVMk2GEYAvDyzr1XAAmY3Lynjd1qJYuv2Lg4xcYyRNFFmgfvkMfEoNAqgCb6WuH1db+ efkj0e5nsZFQkjTs8XAi5ydbOq0Wv5hlnIpitgtjhWzD1+a/twXhgwdbntEzE9RCBYSk ydeSAUFEBcjjXEyKGb84NTOy0DPBftg81m0BWqM6oRDu2NWwoKzr+8OOMKZoyxFSXjGa O4GQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=liZbiNNgso8F2OyFS/Zf5RGFL+YCQoUz0dsfZOxS3qQ=; b=exB+VW4pPQhOeX7oXVO33fuCaM1Tmt3VyA0vMZZqvTY3kXHim0JPBLshjP+ZL0vvTi u77pooZKcBg6OP0OvKgGkN0l6knIoOxwmtfHoC9GujR9l1KLrO03eEcVLShyjbgx1WLV TlRsjGooyQdj2SEc9JMmVdDfWPDV2hoyTwqFWKrE6zfD0JubvHC6YI7kp/nB4r4HMOlx AYUHU/ByOm2BEgeUh80r+mmwV3Wnt6pwDmZdvVvLIrz/mgkpofyEs8tUWhDMJnJ20YAo uV3u5XbWPXfUVDOcZyH8CTsbmksPZa9pPWzVaboqdhkBl7Ufw/frxTrZcOdlmdVNBNFU q+vA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7EAtoBBXIMB80ap2ZpgqQqZ1k8StetgTxFzr4VaWB7qbdViKsrw u8/D7s/GHn+2hSSkKqRGGGDKa+Abz94fjqtZXHY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsbui9ZkNtzAcemzT1p4xKGsdjhS3pPTGvf/a586am9Ef3Dh1soXCH6yq/gL/PJULByrQ6o4eqALuA/svJwGrM= X-Received: by 10.157.74.41 with SMTP id h38mr2317733otf.239.1519939982044; Thu, 01 Mar 2018 13:33:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.74.59.65 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Mar 2018 13:33:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org> <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org> From: Noam Postavsky Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 16:33:01 -0500 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 4:00 PM, Drew Adams wrote: >> > I'm surprised that you would endorse this. >> > There is no need for it, and it is not helpful. >> >> I think I'm entitled to my opinions > > Of course you are. No one said anything to the contrary. > >> even if you consider them unhelpful (unhelpful to what, >> may I wonder?). > > Please read what I wrote. I did not say that your opinions > are unhelpful. Your phrasing was ambiguous enough to read that way though. From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:06:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2018 05:33:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 30530 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 30530-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B30530.15199687516820 (code B ref 30530); Fri, 02 Mar 2018 05:33:01 +0000 Received: (at 30530) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Mar 2018 05:32:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40016 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erdJ1-0001lw-7f for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2018 00:32:31 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42646) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1erdIy-0001lj-LC for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2018 00:32:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1erdIq-000642-9l for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2018 00:32:23 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:40079) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1erdIq-00063w-6O; Fri, 02 Mar 2018 00:32:20 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1411 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1erdIp-0005vG-Kj; Fri, 02 Mar 2018 00:32:20 -0500 Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2018 07:32:31 +0200 Message-Id: <83woyvvy8g.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from Drew Adams on Thu, 1 Mar 2018 13:00:37 -0800 (PST)) References: <<> <83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org>> <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org>>> <<<87zi3y13jf.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>>> <<<83d10nyf4y.fsf@gnu.org>>> <<92c8fd97-8e96-4e2b-8706-f5ca97869912@default>> <<831sh3y51x.fsf@gnu.org>> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 13:00:37 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr, 30530@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > The Emacs doc makes clear that these keys are reserved for users. > > > > Being reserved means that users can bind them. > > You keep repeating that, but it has never been in question. You are questioning that, by insisting that no document can suggest binding those keys. > We can perhaps agree to disagree about that, as well as > perhaps about the likely result of users, particularly > newbies, following that Org-doc recommendation. I started by saying I disagreed with your opinion. It's you who decided to respond. > The Org doc does not need to recommend that users bind > reserved user keys to Org commands, and doing so is (IMHO) > unhelpful to users. > > Just one opinion, of course. Once again, I disagree, and thing that any documentation of any package can suggest binding those keys. That's what those keys are reserved for. From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:06:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2018 15:18:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 30530 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Cc: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr Received: via spool by 30530-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B30530.152000384912334 (code B ref 30530); Fri, 02 Mar 2018 15:18:01 +0000 Received: (at 30530) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Mar 2018 15:17:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41399 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ermR7-0003Cs-Ie for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2018 10:17:29 -0500 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:59270) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ermR5-0003Cg-Rh for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2018 10:17:28 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w22FHE2I139100; Fri, 2 Mar 2018 15:17:19 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=f/JPrnmhVXAXcwByMUnnVYi7yqj86XvX1T/FNJved+A=; b=spmHpEmpeOg1K2ohtwsJCtF88iskCy1MqDYIv+MNwPPwdrj5yg8M3eVRYdJr+CA9I2E4 iH+nyPgXrmVQoNFtWogRCBDjQeal1SgqFFNo7P4O4H8cuqBoGsvFn6xhrhVQDJ+p2nAB tIcg1tTgYyCzkCfsozCUmQnNlcf5uEsFoh0odqs0uxeUI0V7N4SaxX3ycM5aVlrWIJfK N1Zz4MjDqwgCczp4fK0Nyx3Yu5VtjW5tMdC081ZEg0UwLih880sFu8/lSZ3EuWjeQW/B 1/Tx8o2WDeM0BV4JAzx7Iqc/oqf+SpN4x1AX1S0Y/KSwJPmRlfupl+96ey/8diSJLQcI Ig== Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2gf7898hcc-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 02 Mar 2018 15:17:19 +0000 Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w22FHHu8030258 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Mar 2018 15:17:17 GMT Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w22FHFtc008325; Fri, 2 Mar 2018 15:17:16 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 07:17:14 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <<<> <83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org>> <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org>>>> <<<<87zi3y13jf.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>>>> <<<<83d10nyf4y.fsf@gnu.org>>>> <<<92c8fd97-8e96-4e2b-8706-f5ca97869912@default>>> <<<831sh3y51x.fsf@gnu.org>>> <> <<83woyvvy8g.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83woyvvy8g.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4654.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8820 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1803020180 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > > > > The Emacs doc makes clear that these keys are reserved for users. > > > > > > Being reserved means that users can bind them. > > > > You keep repeating that, but it has never been in question. >=20 > You are questioning that, by insisting that no document can > suggest binding those keys. Not at all. It is fine for the Emacs and Elisp manuals to point out that users can bind these keys and that the keys are reserved for them. That's in fact the point of this bug report: to make that message even more clear than it has been, by bringing it to the attention of readers of the Emacs manual. It is a message not just for library writers (which is why it is in the Elisp manual). It is a message for end users - it's about keys reserved for _them_ (so it belongs also in the Emacs manual). Same goes for blogs and other documents. Same also for the doc of a library. Reminding users that these keys are reserved for their use - however they might want to bind them - is _always_ a good thing. That's not the same thing as the doc of a library that most Emacs users use, and that is often the gateway to starting to use Emacs, telling users that they should bind these keys _for that library_, for best results. That is tantamount to the Emacs manual or tutorial telling users that these keys are reserved for users (good) BUT that Emacs recommends that they bind some of them to Org commands (bad). That's misleading, confusing, and not helpful, IMO. And there's no need for it. It is enough for any doc, including the Org doc, to simply remind users that they can bind any of these keys without worry that some library will change them. We should not start Emacs users off with a suggestion that they bind such keys for Org (or anything else). Or if we really think (I don't) that that's the way to start using Emacs then Org should bind those keys by default. In that case, there would be no pretense of reserving them. (Users could still, of course, bind them.) Either the keys are reserved for users or they are not. IMHO, the _single_ message about these keys from Emacs to users (especially new users) should be the message that these keys are reserved for their use. End of story. That message should not be diluted and confused by a second message that for best results you are nevertheless encouraged to bind many such keys to Org commands. From unknown Sun Aug 17 22:06:36 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2018 15:50:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 30530 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 30530-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B30530.152000574215286 (code B ref 30530); Fri, 02 Mar 2018 15:50:02 +0000 Received: (at 30530) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Mar 2018 15:49:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41439 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ermve-0003yK-6z for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2018 10:49:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:43345) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ermvb-0003y0-9p for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2018 10:49:00 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ermvS-0007cG-U4 for 30530@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2018 10:48:54 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:59237) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ermvS-0007c6-QQ; Fri, 02 Mar 2018 10:48:50 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3469 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ermvS-0007ab-1s; Fri, 02 Mar 2018 10:48:50 -0500 Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2018 17:49:03 +0200 Message-Id: <83606ewk9c.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from Drew Adams on Fri, 2 Mar 2018 07:17:14 -0800 (PST)) References: <<<> <83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org>> <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org>>>> <<<<87zi3y13jf.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>>>> <<<<83d10nyf4y.fsf@gnu.org>>>> <<<92c8fd97-8e96-4e2b-8706-f5ca97869912@default>>> <<<831sh3y51x.fsf@gnu.org>>> <> <<83woyvvy8g.fsf@gnu.org>> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 07:17:14 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr, 30530@debbugs.gnu.org > > It is fine for the Emacs and Elisp manuals to point out that users > can bind these keys and that the keys are reserved for them. > [...] > That's not the same thing as the doc of a library that > most Emacs users use, and that is often the gateway to > starting to use Emacs, telling users that they should > bind these keys _for that library_, for best results. There's no difference here that I can see. Library docs are written by the same people who answer questions in stackoverflow and write blogs, and draw from the same knowledge and experience. Suggestions for convenient key bindings in a manual that describes a library is no different from a suggestion in a blog about such bindings. Making them different, let alone to a degree that requires denigrating one of them, is more than splitting hair. > Either the keys are reserved for users or they are > not. IMHO, the _single_ message about these keys > from Emacs to users (especially new users) should > be the message that these keys are reserved for > their use. End of story. Saying that they are reserved and suggesting to bind them in some situation are two different ways of saying the same thing.