From drew.adams@oracle.com Thu Apr 16 13:37:56 2009 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 16 Apr 2009 20:37:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA autolearn=no version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n3GKbram002387 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:37:54 -0700 Received: from mx10.gnu.org ([199.232.76.166]:55697) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LuYLI-0000kN-RV for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:37:52 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LuYLG-0006qv-P9 for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:37:52 -0400 Received: from rcsinet13.oracle.com ([148.87.113.125]:29736 helo=rgminet13.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LuYLG-0006qd-Bf for emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org; Thu, 16 Apr 2009 16:37:50 -0400 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n3GKbq0I016933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:37:53 GMT Received: from acsmt703.oracle.com (acsmt703.oracle.com [141.146.40.81]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n3GKbTE5009063 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:37:34 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:37:29 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: Subject: 23.0.92; triangle images in Customize buffers are just plain bad Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:37:29 -0700 Message-ID: <001201c9bed3$298e0540$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acm+0yj1U67Y4hngRHeLqYN8ofPIlw== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt703.oracle.com [141.146.40.81] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A010203.49E79717.0253:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) emacs -Q While the idea behind the triangles (arrows) in Customize is good (actually, I believe it was I who suggested it), the current effect is quite bad. If the value is shown, then the triangle points downward. Typically, that symbol means that clicking it will display something additional below the symbol. Instead, the value disappears. If the value is not shown, the the symbol is a right-pointing triangle. That's OK in this case, since it suggests that clicking it will display something to the right, and the value is to the right. However, for the symbol that replaces `More', a right-pointing triangle is inappropriate, since the text is not displayed to its right, but below it. After you click the symbol, the cursor stays on top of the symbol graphic, which produces the effect of a blinking filled rectangle around the symbol. And if the buffer is not selected, a nonblinking hollow rectangle appears around the symbol. Not good. In general: These two triangle symbols don't form a natural pair: they are not both horizontal or both vertical. An arrow needs to point toward what it indicates, which is not what's happening now. If you can't get this right using arrows, just use [+] and [-]. They have no implied directionality. They will be quite clear. In GNU Emacs 23.0.92.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2009-03-30 on SOFT-MJASON Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (3.4)' From cyd@stupidchicken.com Sat Oct 31 08:04:48 2009 Received: (at 3022) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 31 Oct 2009 15:04:48 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=4.0 tests=AWL autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from pantheon-po44.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po44.its.yale.edu [130.132.50.78]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n9VF4lHh021089 for <3022@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 31 Oct 2009 08:04:48 -0700 Received: from furry (adsl-99-69-52-129.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net [99.69.52.129]) (authenticated bits=0) by pantheon-po44.its.yale.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n9VF4fVv029772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:04:41 -0400 Received: by furry (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D1337C070; Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:04:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Chong Yidong To: "Drew Adams" Cc: 3022@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: 23.0.92; triangle images in Customize buffers are just plain bad Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:04:40 -0400 Message-ID: <877hub38qf.fsf@stupidchicken.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-YaleITSMailFilter: Version 1.2c (attachment(s) not renamed) > While the idea behind the triangles (arrows) in Customize is good > (actually, I believe it was I who suggested it), the current effect is > quite bad. > > If the value is shown, then the triangle points downward. Typically, > that symbol means that clicking it will display something additional > below the symbol. Instead, the value disappears. > > If the value is not shown, the the symbol is a right-pointing > triangle. That's OK in this case, since it suggests that clicking it > will display something to the right, and the value is to the right. > > However, for the symbol that replaces `More', a right-pointing > triangle is inappropriate, since the text is not displayed to its > right, but below it. This is a very standard user interface idiom, known as "disclosure triangles". From cyd@stupidchicken.com Sat Oct 31 08:05:06 2009 Received: (at control) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 31 Oct 2009 15:05:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=4.0 tests=AWL,VALID_BTS_CONTROL autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from pantheon-po27.its.yale.edu (pantheon-po27.its.yale.edu [130.132.50.122]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n9VF54jc021118 for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2009 08:05:06 -0700 Received: from furry (adsl-99-69-52-129.dsl.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net [99.69.52.129]) (authenticated bits=0) by pantheon-po27.its.yale.edu (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n9VF4xxA011743 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:04:59 -0400 Received: by furry (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B503DC070; Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:04:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Chong Yidong To: control@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: tags 3022 wontfix Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:04:58 -0400 Message-ID: <874opf38px.fsf@stupidchicken.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-YaleITSMailFilter: Version 1.2c (attachment(s) not renamed) tags 3022 + wontfix thanks From drew.adams@oracle.com Sat Oct 31 09:10:46 2009 Received: (at 3022) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 31 Oct 2009 16:10:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=4.0 tests=AWL autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from rgminet11.oracle.com (rcsinet11.oracle.com [148.87.113.123]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n9VGAj2A030326 for <3022@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:10:46 -0700 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n9VGCDtb009894 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:12:15 GMT Received: from acsmt355.oracle.com (acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n9VFPAS6029124; Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:10:38 GMT Received: from abhmt016.oracle.com by acsmt353.oracle.com with ESMTP id 20744359961257005392; Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:09:52 -0700 Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.80.25) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:09:52 -0700 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Chong Yidong'" Cc: <3022@debbugs.gnu.org> References: <877hub38qf.fsf@stupidchicken.com> Subject: RE: 23.0.92; triangle images in Customize buffers are just plain bad Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:09:50 -0700 Message-ID: <83CEEFF8DC7149C1A89D91B6DD5BF312@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcpaO3/3TKysjJETQRSjCW0l8w+ruAACE1Kw In-Reply-To: <877hub38qf.fsf@stupidchicken.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Source-IP: acsmt355.oracle.com [141.146.40.155] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4AEC617C.0158:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 > > While the idea behind the triangles (arrows) in Customize is good > > (actually, I believe it was I who suggested it), the > > current effect is quite bad. > > > > If the value is shown, then the triangle points downward. Typically, > > that symbol means that clicking it will display something additional > > below the symbol. Instead, the value disappears. > > > > If the value is not shown, the the symbol is a right-pointing > > triangle. That's OK in this case, since it suggests that clicking it > > will display something to the right, and the value is to the right. > > > > However, for the symbol that replaces `More', a right-pointing > > triangle is inappropriate, since the text is not displayed to its > > right, but below it. > > This is a very standard user interface idiom, known as "disclosure > triangles". Calling it by name and "very standard" doesn't improve anything. It was I who suggested the idea in the first place. The idea is fine, as I said already. "The current _effect_ is bad." That's the point: it is simply not done right. The result is confusion and easily missing information. See above for details. Doors on buildings (known as "doors") are a very standard architecture idiom. But some doors are poorly designed. From juri@jurta.org Thu Nov 5 18:27:57 2009 Received: (at 3022) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 6 Nov 2009 02:27:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mx2.starman.ee (smtp-out2.starman.ee [85.253.0.4]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id nA62Ru9A016000 for <3022@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:27:57 -0800 X-Virus-Scanned: by Amavisd-New at mx2.starman.ee Received: from mail.starman.ee (62.65.208.152.cable.starman.ee [62.65.208.152]) by mx2.starman.ee (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B4433F4315; Fri, 6 Nov 2009 04:27:50 +0200 (EET) From: Juri Linkov To: Drew Adams Cc: 3022@debbugs.gnu.org, "'Chong Yidong'" Subject: Re: bug#3022: 23.0.92; triangle images in Customize buffers are just plain bad Organization: JURTA References: <877hub38qf.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <83CEEFF8DC7149C1A89D91B6DD5BF312@us.oracle.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 03:50:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83CEEFF8DC7149C1A89D91B6DD5BF312@us.oracle.com> (Drew Adams's message of "Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:09:50 -0700") Message-ID: <87k4y5o9r6.fsf@mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > While the idea behind the triangles (arrows) in Customize is good >> > (actually, I believe it was I who suggested it), the >> > current effect is quite bad. >> > >> > If the value is shown, then the triangle points downward. Typically, >> > that symbol means that clicking it will display something additional >> > below the symbol. Instead, the value disappears. >> > >> > If the value is not shown, the the symbol is a right-pointing >> > triangle. That's OK in this case, since it suggests that clicking it >> > will display something to the right, and the value is to the right. >> > >> > However, for the symbol that replaces `More', a right-pointing >> > triangle is inappropriate, since the text is not displayed to its >> > right, but below it. >> >> This is a very standard user interface idiom, known as "disclosure >> triangles". > > Calling it by name and "very standard" doesn't improve anything. It was I who > suggested the idea in the first place. The idea is fine, as I said already. > > "The current _effect_ is bad." That's the point: it is simply not done right. > The result is confusion and easily missing information. See above for details. >From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclosure_widget The state of the widget is often signified by a label with a triangle next to it, pointing sideways when it is collapsed and downward when it is expanded (corresponding to the widget's current state), or a button with an arrow pointing downward when it is collapsed and upward when it is expanded (corresponding to how the widget will change state if the button is clicked). -- Juri Linkov http://www.jurta.org/emacs/ From lennart.borgman@gmail.com Thu Nov 5 18:53:57 2009 Received: (at 3022) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 6 Nov 2009 02:53:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=4.0 tests=AWL,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail-yx0-f190.google.com (mail-yx0-f190.google.com [209.85.210.190]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id nA62ru2q019356 for <3022@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:53:57 -0800 Received: by yxe28 with SMTP id 28so598431yxe.19 for <3022@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:53:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ieaJR4QlhbVWDZi6sBuAFRzrDyw9avrTdOvJDwjwGWY=; b=xEOUVrCylwA0NV0r0awt2XmldzTdmE4wPfggp9OKCGK8J9+fPwxr7AC5EWMwTnVALX vlqeqqcdmPeOw8BqgNyAXaBuFJMyZr60UOzj4pKwNIZFbU80n1zekXbwh/76l46eSOWf +kxqOgf2fsPstwEcBhoUlUAa0tx7S+f0M/77w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qD/F7urKgkqzEOrwtR2pQsz2GRERoXa5Tesq0CflSuwRLit4WuUsLGE/Xjlz9wovto p8tLInRynyLeXl+NtAqzsvW2RRc6Urmfj2J/g4ERmgPXNqsEasN1xk9rC7DWnWWFOBwc 6v6/NIskzIirFKIA+BSyoVimB51jO+RZYN/6I= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.101.106.24 with SMTP id i24mr3595246anm.141.1257476031049; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:53:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87k4y5o9r6.fsf@mail.jurta.org> References: <877hub38qf.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <83CEEFF8DC7149C1A89D91B6DD5BF312@us.oracle.com> <87k4y5o9r6.fsf@mail.jurta.org> From: Lennart Borgman Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 03:53:31 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#3022: 23.0.92; triangle images in Customize buffers are just plain bad To: Juri Linkov , 3022@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: Drew Adams , Chong Yidong Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:50 AM, Juri Linkov wrote: >>> >>> This is a very standard user interface idiom, known as "disclosure >>> triangles". >> >> Calling it by name and "very standard" doesn't improve anything. It was = I who >> suggested the idea in the first place. The idea is fine, as I said alrea= dy. >> >> "The current _effect_ is bad." That's the point: it is simply not done r= ight. >> The result is confusion and easily missing information. See above for de= tails. > > From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disclosure_widget > > =C2=A0The state of the widget is often signified by a label with a triang= le > =C2=A0next to it, pointing sideways when it is collapsed and downward whe= n > =C2=A0it is expanded (corresponding to the widget's current state), or > =C2=A0a button with an arrow pointing downward when it is collapsed and > =C2=A0upward when it is expanded (corresponding to how the widget will > =C2=A0change state if the button is clicked). I think the triangles are rather standard, but refering to them with "Show" is not so very common outside of Emacs, but here is an example from a customize buffer: Majmodpri Sort After Load: (triangle) State: HIDDEN, invoke "Show" in the previous line to show. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Feb 21 21:30:37 2012 Received: (at 3022-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Feb 2012 02:30:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49632 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1S01yX-0000aB-L9 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:30:37 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:55562 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1S01yV-0000a0-HD for 3022-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:30:36 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1S01wF-0006PX-3G; Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:28:15 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: 3022-done@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#3022: 23.0.92; triangle images in Customize buffers are just plain bad References: <877hub38qf.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <83CEEFF8DC7149C1A89D91B6DD5BF312@us.oracle.com> <87k4y5o9r6.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-Spook: security CDC BATF Bush Wired CIDA Rand Corporation KGB NSA X-Ran: ,|St)aNJc?>tnN@PErK(=3(0rz"3QiW>guwff"VY`ZFSNjX$:TwH5MZ5]}]{n4ph2>Xh1W X-Hue: yellow X-Attribution: GM Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:28:15 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87k4y5o9r6.fsf@mail.jurta.org> (Juri Linkov's message of "Fri, 06 Nov 2009 03:50:37 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 3022-done X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) Version: 24.1 The more/hide text seems to be back, and the other triangles aren't going to be changed, so there's no need to keep this open. From unknown Mon Sep 08 07:02:57 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 11:24:06 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator