From unknown Sun Jun 22 17:16:15 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29838: 26.0; Elisp manual: describe standard-error sexps Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 17:28:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 29838 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 29838@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.151413647513623 (code B ref -1); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 17:28:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2017 17:27:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50831 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTA43-0003Xe-3c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 12:27:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:35823) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTA41-0003XR-PC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 12:27:54 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eTA3v-0002Kk-AH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 12:27:48 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,HTML_MESSAGE, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:41198) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eTA3v-0002Kg-75 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 12:27:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55001) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eTA3t-0002J6-Q8 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 12:27:47 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eTA3n-0002HO-Ss for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 12:27:44 -0500 Received: from aserp2130.oracle.com ([141.146.126.79]:35909) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eTA3n-0002EM-J6 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 12:27:39 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vBOHRXaW153746 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 17:27:34 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : content-type; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=n1ofVGXp4OME81M2onXphVXkR0vcd/L9Ik9BBnLwHdM=; b=UQmgrAMiznCxtZfsIoVxYVCsJhqhM8B9+adroAVSbD87JCMsDVp/cR0/Gsj/hz4a/xEq BI0joBag7ggeBzmvO9Htsp3WR/aHw33OFXWBq5cOFDSeV8VSabQ7URvQd9FEoHT+jPOI O+dEgDDdJYALZeYKNMA69+xVPW23EfBucrXL8LeWQCiDMUHxtsRkLPFemHppmF9AfWWD TgZarMej/sUX+fn837t2IJeEirL2u8LK3TaVAGs2uYLhOG/zqS5wIvzSP4Je7XqzE+yH LfU3/O63XfYHgQ2rdvouiAyyTEC6DlpyBlaA8p8IG7BZizrj1Vp3CphfDvc7zYZcHHBF dQ== Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2f2gj0004h-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 17:27:34 +0000 Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vBOHMXj0008895 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 17:22:33 GMT Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id vBOHMWxF017968 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 17:22:33 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 09:22:30 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4627.0 (x86)] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="__1514136152326284abhmp0008.oracle.com" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8755 signatures=668650 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=1 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=878 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1712240241 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) --__1514136152326284abhmp0008.oracle.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please describe the sexps that are associated with standard errors. Currently, only the error messages are described.? But users can sometimes see an error message that refers only to the sexp for the error. ? Example: ? Error in post-command-hook (foo-post-cmd-hook): (args-out-of-range 9 9) ? I don't see anywhere in the manual where a user could find out what `(args-out-of-range 9 9)' means - in particular, what the two occurrences of `9' signify. ? Node `Standard Errors' says only this: ? ? =1B$B!F=1B(Bargs-out-of-range=1B$B!G=1B(B ???? The message is =1B$B!F=1B(BArgs out of range=1B$B!G=1B(B.? This happen= s when trying to ???? access an element beyond the range of a sequence, buffer, or other ???? container-like object.? *Note Sequences Arrays Vectors::, and *Note ???? Text::. ? Looking at the manual coverage of sequence etc. functions, you find information such as this: ? ? (elt [1 2 3 4] -1) ???? error=1B$B"*=1B(B Args out of range: [1 2 3 4], -1 ? But that doesn't help for understanding `(args-out-of-range 9 9)'. ? In GNU Emacs 26.0.90 (build 3, x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2017-10-13 Repository revision: 906224eba147bdfc0514090064e8e8f53160f1d4 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' ? --__1514136152326284abhmp0008.oracle.com Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Please d= escribe the sexps that are associated with standard errors.

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>Currently, only the error messages are described. = But users can

sometimes see an error me= ssage that refers only to the sexp for

t= he error.

 

Example:

 <= /p>

Error in post-command-hook (foo-post-cmd-hook): (ar= gs-out-of-range 9 9)

 

I don't see anywhere in the manual where a user coul= d find out what

`(args-out-of-range 9 9)= ' means - in particular, what the two

oc= currences of `9' signify.

 

Node `Standard Errors' says only this:

 

 = =1B$B!F=1B(Bargs-out-of-range=1B$B!G=1B(B

     The message is =1B$B!F=1B(BArgs out of range=1B= $B!G=1B(B.  This happens when trying to

     access an element beyond the range of a seque= nce, buffer, or other

   =   container-like object.  *Note Sequences Arrays Vectors::, and *= Note

     Text::.

 

= Looking at the manual coverage of sequence etc. functions, you find

information such as this:

 

  (elt [1 2 3 = 4] -1)

     error=1B= $B"*=1B(B Args out of range: [1 2 3 4], -1

 

But that doesn't help for unde= rstanding `(args-out-of-range 9 9)'.

 

In GNU Emacs 26.0.90 (build 3, x86_6= 4-w64-mingw32)

of 2017-10-13=

Repository revision: 906224eba147bdfc0514090064e8e= 8f53160f1d4

Windowing system distributor= `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601

Con= figured using:

`configure --without-dbu= s --host=3Dx86_64-w64-mingw32

--without= -compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3''

 

--__1514136152326284abhmp0008.oracle.com-- From unknown Sun Jun 22 17:16:15 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29838: 26.0; Elisp manual: describe standard-error sexps Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:04:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29838 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 29838@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 29838-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29838.151413861017194 (code B ref 29838); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:04:01 +0000 Received: (at 29838) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2017 18:03:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50884 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTAcU-0004TG-DB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:03:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:33320) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTAcS-0004T1-Ay for 29838@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:03:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eTAcK-0004u9-1s for 29838@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:03:23 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:59739) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eTAcJ-0004u3-VL; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:03:19 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1661 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1eTAcJ-0006fw-E9; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:03:19 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:03:24 +0200 Message-Id: <837etcj95f.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 09:22:30 -0800 (PST)) References: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 09:22:30 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > > Node `Standard Errors' says only this: > > ‘args-out-of-range’ > The message is ‘Args out of range’. This happens when trying to > access an element beyond the range of a sequence, buffer, or other > container-like object. *Note Sequences Arrays Vectors::, and *Note > Text::. > > Looking at the manual coverage of sequence etc. functions, you find > information such as this: > > (elt [1 2 3 4] -1) > error→ Args out of range: [1 2 3 4], -1 > > But that doesn't help for understanding `(args-out-of-range 9 9)'. Not sure what you want to explain and how. The number of arguments shown by the args-out-of-range error is not fixed (although in many cases they are just 2), and their number and meaning are determined by the calling application. It's not something fixed that can be described to match all the uses. From unknown Sun Jun 22 17:16:15 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29838: 26.0; Elisp manual: describe standard-error sexps Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:51:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29838 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 29838@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 29838-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29838.151414143121509 (code B ref 29838); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:51:02 +0000 Received: (at 29838) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2017 18:50:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50914 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTBLz-0005ar-CX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:50:31 -0500 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:49990) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTBLx-0005ac-8P for 29838@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:50:30 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vBOIoKJG169618; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:50:20 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=jczsi9kxwMtZ6ZC5OB49RZeXBVpXI/rApyQWUWNQd9Y=; b=NYEZYQsyG3sOJeMezXn2fhimZ6XUEyAXDpl7vltXGRqK0Sq3BX9hCRtniHbYa9VdnhO6 f4IyoJjgkJCnUd2uLtUjSTE69T82OSUL0L+daLvueuhBnVXKtNJ3dwk/XT6+vN4K/dF9 cZ57pKf3JILCvXBKDu/pym9aFrF7B0R3fZ7AeMxM5IrlY5Hk/11qlpwBwSrNfLFJgy64 ravWUNmpBZSv2xBP9mdUylTI0EPBtCkoLxoJhKcIZe97jbQPFZ0CgsLe74i4UhMsRMfY lcsoOfpNYGGBUzZy7H1Ot4wFL8m6xEiDLxwyxIjlEXUpXsO+VeCVjmo1kTe4fv+UxTDj 4g== Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2f2hsmr03x-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:50:20 +0000 Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vBOIoIs9013065 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:50:19 GMT Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vBOIoH64032018; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:50:17 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 10:50:16 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <837etcj95f.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <837etcj95f.fsf@gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4627.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8755 signatures=668650 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=443 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1712240258 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > > Looking at the manual coverage of sequence etc. functions, you find > > information such as this: > > (elt [1 2 3 4] -1) > > error=1B$B"*=1B(B Args out of range: [1 2 3 4], -1 > > But that doesn't help for understanding `(args-out-of-range 9 9)'. >=20 > Not sure what you want to explain and how. The number of arguments > shown by the args-out-of-range error is not fixed (although in many > cases they are just 2), and their number and meaning are determined by > the calling application. It's not something fixed that can be > described to match all the uses. Please explain whatever _can_ be explained. Clearly, if the number and specific meanings of arguments cannot be known generically then that info cannot be conveyed. But so far, nothing at all is told users about a sexp such as `(args-out-of-range 9 9)'. A start could to be to mention that an `args-out-of range' error sexp has the form `(args-out-of-range ARG...)' or whatever the truth is, and then say what ARG represents, in general terms. The error messages themselves (see above) are quite different. They show you the sequence/array/whatever as well as the args that are out of range for it. (And a user would naturally expect, I think, that the info in something like `(args-out-of-range 9 9)' would provide the range that the args are outside of, as well as the arg values that are outside that range, even if it didn't provide the sequence/array/etc.) From unknown Sun Jun 22 17:16:15 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29838: 26.0; Elisp manual: describe standard-error sexps In-Reply-To: Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:55:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29838 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 29838@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 29838-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29838.151414168321890 (code B ref 29838); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:55:01 +0000 Received: (at 29838) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2017 18:54:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50919 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTBQ2-0005h0-U1 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:54:43 -0500 Received: from aserp2130.oracle.com ([141.146.126.79]:60871) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTBQ0-0005gl-0m for 29838@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:54:41 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vBOIrcTH003525; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:54:34 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=T03zHpCeKN0KF9Hekug3tmqQmwmN3grS3HgYRaR/ahk=; b=UnCv8/PIdXvsowD1/5unfIHer3q60HFBhg+WBT+Wjq0ox97c34MWuRxcRNqILvEyh8Vk UDfQJpYAjEWBwEW22k8UastaFxU5nceYLt5nLgzHisk/d7VPucdtsN3hnRcVam1LdD5i 0pJF1DdwzwKPsO4QNCFLEAj+r0IcY3lUEkaJcsFjZxt9PTzDIKlzGnQaWT2EiFZqfKJd uQ4hEgib1N4eNbsROz6rsnbjMIIKftLBCtwC/xKiHHOc8jOtSBAQVl6UQ+XaHewmyPEo 6CF699P996/OLYcyX8rg5QDvGOYAhJTLNLyqxJ3kkRE7+bCz8ETv5o/sC+ZlIDNzJQPJ wQ== Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2f2hqc80ft-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:54:33 +0000 Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vBOIsWD1025915 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:54:33 GMT Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vBOIsWc4000928; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:54:32 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <058dab08-2e02-4378-b5e7-9d35e2b7d6af@default> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 10:54:31 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <837etcj95f.fsf@gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4627.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8755 signatures=668650 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=587 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1712240260 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) I think this is the main point: Users can easily see (only) a message that shows a sexp, such as `(args-out-of-range 9 9)', about which they have no information. If users never saw such messages then perhaps there would be no need to describe such things as `(args-out-of-range 9 9)'. If they saw only nice error messages such as "Args out of range: [1 2 3 4], -1" then there would be no such problem. If Emacs can be fixed so that users never see such undescribed and unobvious messages then great. From unknown Sun Jun 22 17:16:15 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29838: 26.0; Elisp manual: describe standard-error sexps Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 19:01:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29838 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 29838@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 29838-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29838.151414201422522 (code B ref 29838); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 19:01:02 +0000 Received: (at 29838) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2017 19:00:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50931 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTBVO-0005rA-Em for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 14:00:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:48401) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTBVN-0005qz-A2 for 29838@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 14:00:13 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eTBVF-0000CT-U9 for 29838@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 14:00:08 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:33300) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eTBVF-0000CN-RT; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 14:00:05 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1772 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1eTBVF-0001l6-9K; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 14:00:05 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 21:00:09 +0200 Message-Id: <831sjkj6iu.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 24 Dec 2017 10:50:16 -0800 (PST)) References: <837etcj95f.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 10:50:16 -0800 (PST) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 29838@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > Looking at the manual coverage of sequence etc. functions, you find > > > information such as this: > > > (elt [1 2 3 4] -1) > > > error→ Args out of range: [1 2 3 4], -1 > > > But that doesn't help for understanding `(args-out-of-range 9 9)'. > > > > Not sure what you want to explain and how. The number of arguments > > shown by the args-out-of-range error is not fixed (although in many > > cases they are just 2), and their number and meaning are determined by > > the calling application. It's not something fixed that can be > > described to match all the uses. > > Please explain whatever _can_ be explained. Sorry, I don't know how to do that in any useful way. Maybe someone else will have an idea. From unknown Sun Jun 22 17:16:15 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29838: 26.0; Elisp manual: describe standard-error sexps Resent-From: Andreas Schwab Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 19:58:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29838 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 29838@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 29838-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29838.151414546927710 (code B ref 29838); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 19:58:01 +0000 Received: (at 29838) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2017 19:57:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50955 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTCP6-0007Cs-Pp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 14:57:48 -0500 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]:42136) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTCP4-0007Cj-BT for 29838@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 14:57:47 -0500 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3z4Y210QKxz1qrN3; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:57:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.70]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3z4Y205H3Hz1qqkr; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:57:44 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.70]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nq65N8gfhhqw; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:57:44 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Info: 4TL8U1EnARctdFbPs4gBvwSNzSgO/4A1uiPLhKJ3K/QBNx8jpToQJxaK5yOd+gzZ Received: from linux.local (p4FE4C477.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.228.196.119]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:57:44 +0100 (CET) Received: by linux.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id B0B351E5865; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:57:40 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab References: <837etcj95f.fsf@gnu.org> <058dab08-2e02-4378-b5e7-9d35e2b7d6af@default> X-Yow: On the road, ZIPPY is a pinhead without a purpose, but never without a POINT. Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:57:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: <058dab08-2e02-4378-b5e7-9d35e2b7d6af@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 24 Dec 2017 10:54:31 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On Dez 24 2017, Drew Adams wrote: > If users never saw such messages then perhaps there > would be no need to describe such things as > `(args-out-of-range 9 9)'. If they saw only nice > error messages such as "Args out of range: [1 2 3 4], -1" > then there would be no such problem. Is "Args out of range: 9, 9" any more informative? Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From unknown Sun Jun 22 17:16:15 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29838: 26.0; Elisp manual: describe standard-error sexps Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:06:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29838 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 29838@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 29838-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29838.151414594328565 (code B ref 29838); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:06:01 +0000 Received: (at 29838) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2017 20:05:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50969 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTCWl-0007Qf-4y for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 15:05:43 -0500 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:49800) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTCWk-0007QS-59 for 29838@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 15:05:42 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vBOK2A6E117915; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:05:36 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=xwIi1mg7XB+3g5QwUZj0H7BCev0SdYu+MGO4VtieOME=; b=q6QiFris+Pfd2FpsMxzcc7uSZDBHuIGj6WW4FLX7RAgOwHQcSWHL0j2Xr6mVgfRf8DJr 9M2nNDg30d+uGXqkklNn/Zf2CKwqWZC6H/SZV9io1mNfgINTSPOkf5KJqHO7rHkZUEpZ zcbe5g9iTWuDS2j83z39/2Shp9eMlru301GI+2tXiTiTvgLZOph9xLKzW04GcD6k64tg WjKmywOn8h29/X+LU0hxJZcOelx7w2vgYnVwuKWpCXoj8QS6P+9do62g4EVvlM5fcDN3 qKYfqtumTDOWwVY171j3r+61QQSZQQHOXawndf+YOt+OC6o9od8+vBgaKzOXNfWpUSxv ng== Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2f2jr1r0ar-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:05:35 +0000 Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vBOK5ZJS030150 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:05:35 GMT Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id vBOK5YfW027718; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:05:35 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <97c4c503-91cd-4635-8fde-487f22275f02@default> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 12:05:33 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <837etcj95f.fsf@gnu.org> <831sjkj6iu.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <831sjkj6iu.fsf@gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4627.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8755 signatures=668650 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=679 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1712240277 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > > > > Please explain whatever _can_ be explained. >=20 > Sorry, I don't know how to do that in any useful way. Maybe someone > else will have an idea. As I said: A start could to be to mention that an `args-out-of range' error sexp has the form `(args-out-of-range ARG...)' or whatever the truth is, and then say what ARG represents, in general terms. And as I said: If [users] saw only nice error messages such as "Args out of range: [1 2 3 4], -1" then there would be no such problem. That too would take care of this bug. Put differently, users should not see a message that refers to something (internal?) that they cannot understand and that you say you don't know how to explain. But that's what happens currently with (as one example), errors raised on `post-command-hook'. It is presumably possible to see such unhelpful messages also in other contexts where raising an error is suppressed in favor of showing a message about the error. Perhaps a all such inferior messages could be fixed at the same place (dunno). From unknown Sun Jun 22 17:16:15 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29838: 26.0; Elisp manual: describe standard-error sexps Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:12:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29838 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Andreas Schwab Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 29838@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 29838-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29838.151414626729125 (code B ref 29838); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:12:01 +0000 Received: (at 29838) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Dec 2017 20:11:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50974 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTCby-0007Zg-PB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 15:11:06 -0500 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:46869) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTCbx-0007Z3-54 for 29838@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 15:11:05 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vBOK7V6g014452; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:10:59 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=MHMIzlxMCpX6AhaemlLhT/wgLbfW6hCQkp7cDL9DD5U=; b=Uc15DyKPE3Ddivrd0FPRsoG7753ALOZAf3W0KihdDxDJNmIGATEYS+RjBT0kZIFPPljX jJSpVb2vBcRFpdMizoOnK1NjNKD+qeH6pY1jn44BIE/wnpdfNKIr1K9HKlIR1XH15oQY 8qUfbQ6QUsWuJEvV/CpUYPt0/YCyvmPesyqpCgssEhf7Hibj7gKncl7fI1ct3fc0lpFx 5WdvnuinS1GllOUs+uPgSy8tneuoKRVQ1pjUhC7rn/sh6yBy3yxKzWifNUusZ9ljjjJa 1WX+mPx8hnS4plt3VU+XRG9ZE3ge95xkro8rVh5H/RPoWJlIQYwkHpn7YFqXdXXtLoN3 fw== Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2f2ja281bu-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:10:59 +0000 Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vBOKAwIG005197 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:10:58 GMT Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vBOKAvCv027625; Sun, 24 Dec 2017 20:10:57 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 12:10:56 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <837etcj95f.fsf@gnu.org> <058dab08-2e02-4378-b5e7-9d35e2b7d6af@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4627.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8755 signatures=668650 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=680 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1712240278 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > > If users never saw such messages then perhaps there > > would be no need to describe such things as > > `(args-out-of-range 9 9)'. If they saw only nice > > error messages such as "Args out of range: [1 2 3 4], -1" > > then there would be no such problem. >=20 > Is "Args out of range: 9, 9" any more informative? Of course not. But that's not the corresponding error message, is it? Now that you bring that up, I don't see any good description of the error message itself, either. So yes, that's perhaps the first thing to fix. Ideally the message should be self-explanatory, and should indicate what the range is that the specified args fall outside of. From unknown Sun Jun 22 17:16:15 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29838: 26.0; Elisp manual: describe standard-error sexps Resent-From: Andreas Schwab Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 08:53:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29838 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 29838@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 29838-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29838.15141919455758 (code B ref 29838); Mon, 25 Dec 2017 08:53:01 +0000 Received: (at 29838) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Dec 2017 08:52:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51131 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTOUj-0001Un-3p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 03:52:25 -0500 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]:45132) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTOUg-0001Ud-Ix for 29838@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 03:52:23 -0500 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3z4tCn1qmjz1qsVh; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 09:52:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.70]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3z4tCn0fv2z1sFWr; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 09:52:21 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.70]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qrnUARt4V7bE; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 09:52:20 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Info: iuprCRhFvG8cimHRLlFCUtMKby79L67ZdRhy0/XzlSAIS2hiXs/0GWfBPZ6nkZky Received: from linux.local (p4FE4C57D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.228.197.125]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 09:52:20 +0100 (CET) Received: by linux.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 649931E5865; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 09:52:16 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab References: <837etcj95f.fsf@gnu.org> <058dab08-2e02-4378-b5e7-9d35e2b7d6af@default> X-Yow: Spreading peanut butter reminds me of opera!! I wonder why? Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 09:52:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 24 Dec 2017 12:10:56 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On Dez 24 2017, Drew Adams wrote: >> > If users never saw such messages then perhaps there >> > would be no need to describe such things as >> > `(args-out-of-range 9 9)'. If they saw only nice >> > error messages such as "Args out of range: [1 2 3 4], -1" >> > then there would be no such problem. >> >> Is "Args out of range: 9, 9" any more informative? > > Of course not. But that's not the corresponding > error message, is it? Yes, it is. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." From unknown Sun Jun 22 17:16:15 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29838: 26.0; Elisp manual: describe standard-error sexps Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 16:30:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29838 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Andreas Schwab Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 29838@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 29838-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29838.151421934622896 (code B ref 29838); Mon, 25 Dec 2017 16:30:02 +0000 Received: (at 29838) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Dec 2017 16:29:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51987 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTVcg-0005xE-B2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 11:29:06 -0500 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:47672) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eTVce-0005wk-RE for 29838@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 11:29:05 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vBPGSidt150408; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 16:28:57 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=g6pF4IAIgidliFPhLtIuseSprEQNvtbNUBDw/ML4jLY=; b=ZKDVRjWtt9qqKAfe6mCwgXzBisMxVKgG/Fowu81qL+zgMVY9gmEbq3Ctz5Z1T+0ou1wT TxxQwPNLjwonE7U/+dr6J/avzjnIbcY3tF6qdJIVXyNwCqvGpgVkEqfSg+OryJpkS+nJ 4gKiXQjRKZu9lrpE2s6kLXrTQuONN4x5HaigkHbn45H8a79iEv22Wz/2FqWp9wiZjTmA Cm6D074SrOVJX+pqGgRKhGNjP+CMYh4GgT4OD92/QZa9U24n4A8lYRNAeXNACMQpevlc lAbtF1mi1GYm0CvMWD+dRJ6Wzi3ZkiLRKHi1NNBz/trMhuXRkNLBX4mymp5XGV87v8bi YQ== Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2f34p3g0j6-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 25 Dec 2017 16:28:57 +0000 Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vBPGSvXm016814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 25 Dec 2017 16:28:57 GMT Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id vBPGSuZD025750; Mon, 25 Dec 2017 16:28:56 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 08:28:56 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <837etcj95f.fsf@gnu.org> <058dab08-2e02-4378-b5e7-9d35e2b7d6af@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4627.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8755 signatures=668650 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=672 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1712250232 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > >> Is "Args out of range: 9, 9" any more informative? > > > > Of course not. But that's not the corresponding > > error message, is it? >=20 > Yes, it is. Room for improvement in both the error messages and the doc, then. From unknown Sun Jun 22 17:16:15 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29838: 26.0; Elisp manual: describe standard-error sexps Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2022 10:10:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29838 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: 29838@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams Received: via spool by 29838-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29838.164422858617629 (code B ref 29838); Mon, 07 Feb 2022 10:10:02 +0000 Received: (at 29838) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2022 10:09:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41077 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nH0xt-0004aH-Va for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2022 05:09:46 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:38182) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nH0xr-0004Zz-8j for 29838@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2022 05:09:45 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=CCkS3+6RccIPAj1gU1z3tuDnXgdKmye6pVs5ebNN06k=; b=Q6jeZiVgK9GLt65Uz56G4hsDLT 0oOjxgm/lZC+G/DlKrFBe3aD66H70OqE4qZoxhHFfykjAUTZyyET4JlScGeo6vWJv4JawCdDH9Gzd ZdFyRuj282qzqqki7zas1lNsV19TMAYbe2TdY080ntITvvb+Y8ZIIeWzMLRYHCOh+AT4=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=giant) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nH0xg-0007MR-TY; Mon, 07 Feb 2022 11:09:35 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <837etcj95f.fsf@gnu.org> <831sjkj6iu.fsf@gnu.org> X-Now-Playing: Kraftwerk's _Trans-Europe Express_: "Europe Endless" Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2022 11:09:29 +0100 In-Reply-To: <831sjkj6iu.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 24 Dec 2017 21:00:09 +0200") Message-ID: <877da7vvhi.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Please explain whatever _can_ be explained. > > Sorry, I don't know how to do that in any useful way. Maybe someone > else will have an idea. I don't think there's much here that can be usefully said (and we don't want to commit to any specific format, I think?), so I'm closing this bug report. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Please explain whatever _can_ be explained. > > Sorry, I don't know how to do that in any useful way. Maybe someone > else will have an idea. I don't think there's much here that can be usefully said (and we don't want to commit to any specific format, I think?), so I'm closing this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 07 05:09:52 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2022 10:09:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41080 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nH0y0-0004ab-6P for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2022 05:09:52 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:38198) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nH0xy-0004aG-SH for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2022 05:09:51 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ir3dySEEhE1SlVApDgwnp9171sGCK2JoTm0cvpDA40Y=; b=MPvO8KIHprF3cdt6hd7bW6Rubg mNwy4h6qaszjPQXcqrbv7vsHngd3BOVxmmHYGqNuGQXfOXacfgu2rzxsXQtMp0NVw7rdlRJ2Aoyqm 6klz9WVFGXfhBTtqhe6kcXIW3b5u2F/tJxZmrblOTWWVbvfSYMuoKcNSx6o73KtF9SyE=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=giant) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nH0xq-0007MX-ND for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 07 Feb 2022 11:09:45 +0100 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2022 11:09:38 +0100 Message-Id: <875yprvvh9.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #29838 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 29838 wontfix close 29838 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tags 29838 wontfix close 29838 quit