From unknown Tue Jun 17 22:28:29 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29586: Please revert change to package deletion Resent-From: Adam Porter Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 00:22:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 29586 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 29586@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.15125196666525 (code B ref -1); Wed, 06 Dec 2017 00:22:01 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Dec 2017 00:21:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48237 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMNST-0001hB-GB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 19:21:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:49638) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMNSS-0001gL-0o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 19:21:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eMNSL-0007oY-It for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 19:20:58 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FREEMAIL_FROM, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:49984) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eMNSL-0007o8-FW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 19:20:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40579) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eMNSJ-00036V-N9 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 19:20:57 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eMNSI-0007lX-Bl for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 19:20:55 -0500 Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]:38415) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eMNSI-0007km-5L for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 19:20:54 -0500 Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id 64so4286855wme.3 for ; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:20:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=YmStpzou71yPTB7AA4G6W/tdPbDaDK2YBPbXJYcHfrw=; b=kY5o8WR9414WD4VvoCVCXAu5oOuLia34IZXOm8/vFp0dQcczFKAcOiYn5ViwOfDhQt ndCf+zLnxQVEjRZRamGZd5/9s4+D0Z1me8vxVwfdcbaveTkZ3S/iFVrbk3tpXDYT4+l+ 3+4OheK1ZzqkDwAjc/iwCAWz6hYqkZTrb9ukIOMhZO+aIDsg9fzwd1yRoxNehtlEKS8W EEVdBVJK5lClIWIvvgBuvsEbcEHew8xQIC7STssEJ9LM+fXOYCZUhIPqLhCK2nW3C5Xt uY+GKkVECw6wn+/62SZjvEfkOZ7MIIzR3mfFZ6mcljpk5OH31ogBRPWVCBkCAyWWcR8h zJDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to; bh=YmStpzou71yPTB7AA4G6W/tdPbDaDK2YBPbXJYcHfrw=; b=JREbTqKRWDMr2fmnF8Cawgu6FM5rvjVXISigIIDRpX3ERQO6nwn66Q0J9cMq5iWMeT 8xffGZNcXQi0OG2fm4x24lMHHpEhRF10FNG5LOzXdpFlCnIPYZKB3ZLEMO6eLUA5exaA 4pygthlHKWRP9Up076qRkyC3lRO8lwvUw6X98h04Utm7CB0n63O0VA23fqFx1bZuCTDT EwCMbmEiQnVu7Bav9CpMPn+0qCfKwNb5QRlRYTjZySSpiJCJjzcJZWzZNVQZBPHk786Z n9Bp1tXzUnQY1EZjlQVndgKdGwA8jSR0AGy6QvIQXoNNOInT+8PT2d0GeQMGld0K8aT8 2HCQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX5CNiOaKw7pl6hrGjHAsmnLJsx79XywZMKDgoK0a29YoLpr35ks 86GY/0tppKJz3C/IQhndGj4QMLmh40jrrdUev/gsig== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZTg9ygQHPOXk9w+tWhFdw2VqCIft00UV/43f0zKKKGJa23FrzRwuK+xFgRlinUticLpn4WxA+oVMCwHjIVhyU= X-Received: by 10.80.137.9 with SMTP id e9mr37831631ede.199.1512519652595; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:20:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.148.214 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 16:20:52 -0800 (PST) From: Adam Porter Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:20:52 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: JFdZ8dIOdQIuqIFEVYkv9LNbxYc Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) I'm disappointed to see the change made in response to the filing of being released in Emacs 26. The preexisting behavior, to delete packages to the trash, was the safer behavior. In the event that an updated package caused a problem, a user could restore the previous version from the trash. Since ELPA/MELPA repositories only provide the latest version of a package, the only other way to recover a previous version of a package would be for a user to manually recover it from the package's version control repo. This is a laborious process, one which most users will not even have the necessary knowledge to do; generally one would only expect package developers to be able to do so in a reasonable amount of time. For other users, when their config becomes broken due to a new package version, it's likely that they need to get some work done with Emacs, and do not therefore have the time to debug such issues and manually recover the previous version of a package. This is not an everyday occurrence, but note that, given the relatively haphazard way in which ELPA/MELPA (the latter, especially) packages are released, this *does* happen, and inevitably it does so when one doesn't have time to fix it. Users who keep their ~/.emacs.d/{,elpa} under version control have an easy fix for this, but in my estimation, having been participating in such discussions and encouraging it, this remains a small minority of users. Therefore, having old package versions in the trash is a desirable behavior, in the general best-interests of users. The original bug report complained of, "cluttering the user's trash can." This is a very poor justification for the change that was made, to claim that the *trash can* is being cluttered. The trash can is the designated receptacle for such clutter, and is designed to be emptied with a single action. I cannot fathom real users lamenting that their *trash can* is cluttered with *trash*. As well, please note that the original complainant, despite having significantly contributed to the Emacs community in several ways, has since aggressively removed himself from the community in general protest, and is no longer even an Emacs user. It's especially disappointing, given that a patch was posted to make the behavior configurable, but instead the new, less-safe behavior was hard-coded. Finally, the original bug report languished for 3 years without any other users requesting that the behavior be changed, and then another year passed before the change was actually made. Given this, it seems like this change was essentially made to satisfy the whim of a single user, who now, very publicly, no longer uses Emacs. Therefore, please consider reverting this change before Emacs 26 is released, to avoid this user-unfriendly change being officially released into the wild. Thanks for your work on Emacs. From unknown Tue Jun 17 22:28:29 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29586: Please revert change to package deletion Resent-From: "John Wiegley" Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 00:47:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29586 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Adam Porter Cc: 29586@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 29586-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29586.15125211978781 (code B ref 29586); Wed, 06 Dec 2017 00:47:02 +0000 Received: (at 29586) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Dec 2017 00:46:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48247 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMNrB-0002HY-41 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 19:46:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:57733) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMNr8-0002HI-2O for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 19:46:34 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eMNr1-0004Mc-TW for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 19:46:28 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:60809) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eMNqu-0004Jj-QR; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 19:46:20 -0500 Received: from auth2-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.228]:51869) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA256:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1eMNqu-0001rD-IH; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 19:46:20 -0500 Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailauth.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C2420AEF; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 19:46:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 05 Dec 2017 19:46:18 -0500 X-ME-Sender: Received: from localhost (76-234-69-149.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net [76.234.69.149]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D766F24786; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 19:46:17 -0500 (EST) From: "John Wiegley" In-Reply-To: (Adam Porter's message of "Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:20:52 -0600") Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:46:13 -0800 Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.90 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) >>>>> "AP" == Adam Porter writes: AP> The original bug report complained of, "cluttering the user's trash can." AP> This is a very poor justification for the change that was made, to claim AP> that the *trash can* is being cluttered. The trash can is the designated AP> receptacle for such clutter, and is designed to be emptied with a single AP> action. I cannot fathom real users lamenting that their *trash can* is AP> cluttered with *trash*. I tend to agree with Adam on this point. As a user, I'd prefer such things to accumulate in my trash so that I could undo them; I really don't care what's in the trash, just that's useful for undeleting things. Most operating systems provide ways to periodically tidy up the trash, so I'm somewhat surprised that a bug was issued to this fact. -- John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 From unknown Tue Jun 17 22:28:29 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29586: Please revert change to package deletion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 10:49:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29586 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: "John Wiegley" Cc: adam@alphapapa.net, 29586@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 29586-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29586.15127301105664 (code B ref 29586); Fri, 08 Dec 2017 10:49:02 +0000 Received: (at 29586) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2017 10:48:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51411 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eNGCk-0001TI-1g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 05:48:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53626) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eNGCi-0001T4-M7 for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 05:48:29 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eNGCc-0005kI-Fm for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 05:48:23 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:56765) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eNGCW-0005g9-Dj; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 05:48:16 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2758 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1eNGCV-00078x-RL; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 05:48:16 -0500 Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:47:55 +0200 Message-Id: <83mv2twl5w.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (johnw@gnu.org) References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > From: "John Wiegley" > Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:46:13 -0800 > Cc: 29586@debbugs.gnu.org > > >>>>> "AP" == Adam Porter writes: > > AP> The original bug report complained of, "cluttering the user's trash can." > AP> This is a very poor justification for the change that was made, to claim > AP> that the *trash can* is being cluttered. The trash can is the designated > AP> receptacle for such clutter, and is designed to be emptied with a single > AP> action. I cannot fathom real users lamenting that their *trash can* is > AP> cluttered with *trash*. > > I tend to agree with Adam on this point. As a user, I'd prefer such things to > accumulate in my trash so that I could undo them; I really don't care what's > in the trash, just that's useful for undeleting things. Most operating systems > provide ways to periodically tidy up the trash, so I'm somewhat surprised that > a bug was issued to this fact. The problem is that many users have their packages auto-updated, so the trash piles up quite quickly. The usual justification for trash is that you may be inadvertently deleting something precious. Here we are talking about downgrading to a previous version of a package, which, while perhaps somewhat inconvenient, is not impossible. So why fill up the user's trash with stuff that can be recovered "by other means"? From unknown Tue Jun 17 22:28:29 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29586: Please revert change to package deletion Resent-From: Glenn Morris Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 18:00:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29586 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: adam@alphapapa.net, 29586@debbugs.gnu.org, John Wiegley Received: via spool by 29586-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29586.151275599420000 (code B ref 29586); Fri, 08 Dec 2017 18:00:02 +0000 Received: (at 29586) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2017 17:59:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52810 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eNMwE-0005CW-18 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:59:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53079) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eNMwC-0005CG-5l for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:59:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eNMw6-0007Fl-EZ for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:59:47 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:43325) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eNMw1-0007Bu-52; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:59:41 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1eNMw0-0005YR-HO; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:59:40 -0500 From: Glenn Morris References: <83mv2twl5w.fsf@gnu.org> X-Spook: Air Marshal Hugo Chavez LABLINK Gangs Emergency X-Ran: T?Dj5xKo3Efo#M>D@Ztb~N]GO>w;d7q22Z,^*SzNK`U&O&#]-PM>9$IaFa{\y[ze}@F@xb X-Hue: black X-Attribution: GM Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:59:40 -0500 In-Reply-To: <83mv2twl5w.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:47:55 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) I don't have a strong opinion, but: I don't know of any package management system that when uninstalling a binary package moves all the files to a trash directory. It seems to me this is being used in lieu of some features other package systems do implement, and that package.el could benefit from: a transaction history a downgrade command a rollback command caching of the _source_ when installing a package package archives that provide convenient access to old versions (maybe this exists for elpas, I don't know) From unknown Tue Jun 17 22:28:29 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29586: Please revert change to package deletion Resent-From: Adam Porter Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 18:23:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29586 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 29586@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 29586-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29586.151275733429322 (code B ref 29586); Fri, 08 Dec 2017 18:23:01 +0000 Received: (at 29586) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2017 18:22:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52825 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eNNHp-0007cs-Vl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 13:22:14 -0500 Received: from mail-wm0-f52.google.com ([74.125.82.52]:42620) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eNNHn-0007cc-ML for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 13:22:12 -0500 Received: by mail-wm0-f52.google.com with SMTP id b199so863640wme.1 for <29586@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 10:22:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=5X8BsM0ITIdTNj/rG+wHRrMq5aT3QNEpB8Tkl7d/FQk=; b=ddLhBxeZf1PLUOWzGcWTJJ4QbEWLutbuwq1cW0iPijLpNez01qE1qkRhhMxtZqslML rQKr3cI+4d1ZhJ+FObDbd/X7Zx6cbhR6od9+4TMdDRVxN9VzTX2T1fEIURLmkurY3Hil gBQw/aSJ5vxJtymbfpdQAC1XpEDW8bYaYmeTc17xHtY8rquWDGPs16Se9FU+a6vrDb8R AbWw74chctTKzcL/g0blwkcp3NSRQITwZKc6vkh++7dOWgfggrkJ2JXrlRcx3pp6ZX8S JpFRmqLVeihU15JPVMXwGzMxhYLPbF5ecpMOUB3LwVbjcfWo6kSbD/7a/TS3n54F2M0e N1Jg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=5X8BsM0ITIdTNj/rG+wHRrMq5aT3QNEpB8Tkl7d/FQk=; b=BmErvHvc23Df28dbg8aAc31rmR4qYkO4w9oBWV9/TehFF//VRorWkyourP9iUnNqwa HCSvFdbAafut64+hitXKzrvpr8jOcdGJnb2U9/R+o1ocpffZewc4H1TZ/0j0U/Jpzdkj 8oyhJgtDlj/1JGRAJWX+nh1NRVdNBT7T9P7DyNsS7dioxonbflR2M7iq/zU3UUU37Rk3 LNbmBk0xHIuxSF73zggD0WnnIAEsRvr0V3YDQJVZyn39gacNG603GM5cCH7osLTeR7v8 uD7QWly1G7VT87OP3AeFNIWOTODIWgl2oktAnm/YbG6x80KZH7CoOWZ526Ep8jeSA0f1 TzGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX7nGbOb+ReoLsi7ZQmo+5AUviB6cappjQokWLHRROg0kN3VUcPK iVU6QWnSRq3S5yTcO9IUhhZL9Q2HWSWyXOHOfiuqOA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMafbIrYVCigYi8k+rwWjhtYBZ1QM/hgvz8crUTLg0f3JemhblvCtZck8gpmS3HGjq04dJKkoqzMUfUAJqSYLus= X-Received: by 10.80.212.196 with SMTP id e4mr49824710edj.97.1512757325715; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 10:22:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.148.214 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 10:22:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83mv2twl5w.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83mv2twl5w.fsf@gnu.org> From: Adam Porter Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 12:22:05 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: cshrLG1G9rLpIocO-Xr7WpBiPVU Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 4:47 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > The problem is that many users have their packages auto-updated, so > the trash piles up quite quickly. Is that a problem, though? It's not for me. I have plenty of disk space, and I don't even look at the trash for weeks or months at a time. Then I can empty it with a single command, or I have a Python script that works with XDG trash bins that can delete all trashed items older than a certain time. There are also desktop environments that can delete trash automatically (e.g. KDE). > The usual justification for trash is that you may be inadvertently > deleting something precious. Here we are talking about downgrading to > a previous version of a package, which, while perhaps somewhat > inconvenient, is not impossible. So why fill up the user's trash with > stuff that can be recovered "by other means"? As best I can tell, the typical process to recover old package versions by other means would look like this: 1. Already know how to use git or whatever VC the package author uses. 2. Find package's web site or VC repo, either through describe-package or looking at the source file. 3. Clone the repo locally. 4. Figure out which previous commit corresponds to the version which was previously installed. (This is a non-trivial step: without having the previous version's files available, the user may be left to simply guess what the old version string was. If he can determine that, he can guess which commit corresponds to it by date. If he can't determine the old version string, he essentially has to look at the commit log and figure out, from the contents of each commit, which one is most likely to still work on his config.) 5. Check-out that commit. 6. Actually use that commit in his Emacs config. (If it's a single-file package, he might simply load the file, or open it and eval the buffer. If it's a multi-file package, this process is laborious and error-prone, as the files must be loaded in the correct order. Alternatively, he could add the directory to his load-path, delete the broken, installed version of the package, and restart Emacs. None of these steps are likely to be feasible for users who are not also package developers.) In contrast, if he could restore the old version from the trash, the process would look something like: 1. Uninstall current version of the package. 2. Restore old version's directory from the trash. 3. Restart Emacs. Most Emacs users could do this much more easily. They might not know that the old version is in the trash, but someone on e.g. /r/emacs or IRC could easily describe that process to them. But describing the other process to someone who doesn't already know how to do those things is not a promising scenario, especially in the case that the user needs to get something done quickly and needs his config to just work like it used to. Glenn makes a good point, and it would be great if package.el could do those things someday. But if that ever happens, it's a long way off, and being able to restore old versions from the trash is a simple, cheap way to safeguard against such common breakage (as an example, not to criticize John, but even use-package had changes in the past few days which caused some breakage in users' configs, and it would have been simple for them to simply restore the old version until a fix was published). It's also the way it's worked for many years now. From unknown Tue Jun 17 22:28:29 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29586: Please revert change to package deletion Resent-From: John Wiegley Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 05:52:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29586 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: adam@alphapapa.net, 29586@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 29586-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29586.15127986667830 (code B ref 29586); Sat, 09 Dec 2017 05:52:02 +0000 Received: (at 29586) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Dec 2017 05:51:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53072 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eNY2T-00022E-LX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 00:51:05 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53538) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eNY2R-00021k-0O for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 00:51:03 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eNY2I-0003rt-Ap for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 00:50:57 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_05,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:56550) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eNY27-0003km-9H; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 00:50:43 -0500 Received: from auth2-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.228]:40655) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA256:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1eNY24-0002sH-3I; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 00:50:40 -0500 Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailauth.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E5BF20C00; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 00:50:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 09 Dec 2017 00:50:38 -0500 X-ME-Sender: Received: from localhost (76-234-69-149.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net [76.234.69.149]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DC53C242CD; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 00:50:37 -0500 (EST) From: John Wiegley In-Reply-To: <83mv2twl5w.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:47:55 +0200") Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 21:50:31 -0800 Message-ID: References: <83mv2twl5w.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.90 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) >>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii writes: EZ> The problem is that many users have their packages auto-updated, so the EZ> trash piles up quite quickly. Not to be contentious, but how much of an impact could that really have for Emacs packages? I use >350 packages, and my site-lisp is 400M. Even if I auto-updated everything, every day, that's *still* ~1% of my disk, which is what I usually allocate for trash accumulation. Your argument that no other package system replaces packages by moving them to the trash is valid, though; I don't know of any that do that. Thus, I can't argue that it's the right thing to do here. -- John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 From unknown Tue Jun 17 22:28:29 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29586: Please revert change to package deletion Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 09:00:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29586 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: John Wiegley Cc: adam@alphapapa.net, 29586@debbugs.gnu.org Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 29586-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29586.151280995232363 (code B ref 29586); Sat, 09 Dec 2017 09:00:02 +0000 Received: (at 29586) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Dec 2017 08:59:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53102 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eNayW-0008Pv-2F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 03:59:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:59211) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eNayU-0008Pj-AZ for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 03:59:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eNayO-0000VH-7v for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 03:59:05 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:58419) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eNayJ-0000PV-DX; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 03:58:59 -0500 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4230 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1eNayI-0003BA-J7; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 03:58:59 -0500 Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 10:58:40 +0200 Message-Id: <83h8t0uvjz.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from John Wiegley on Fri, 08 Dec 2017 21:50:31 -0800) References: <83mv2twl5w.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > From: John Wiegley > Cc: adam@alphapapa.net, 29586@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 21:50:31 -0800 > > >>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii writes: > > EZ> The problem is that many users have their packages auto-updated, so the > EZ> trash piles up quite quickly. > > Not to be contentious, but how much of an impact could that really have for > Emacs packages? I use >350 packages, and my site-lisp is 400M. Even if I > auto-updated everything, every day, that's *still* ~1% of my disk, which is > what I usually allocate for trash accumulation. The disk space is not the issue, I think, not nowadays. I believe the issue is the _number_ of files in the trash: if there are an awful lot of them, they make looking for those "precious" mistakenly deleted files harder. Or at least this is my understanding; I don't use trash, so have no experience of my own to share. From unknown Tue Jun 17 22:28:29 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29586: Please revert change to package deletion Resent-From: John Wiegley Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 09:09:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29586 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: adam@alphapapa.net, 29586@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 29586-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29586.1512810534838 (code B ref 29586); Sat, 09 Dec 2017 09:09:02 +0000 Received: (at 29586) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Dec 2017 09:08:54 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53116 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eNb7u-0000DS-IF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 04:08:54 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:34584) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eNb7s-0000DG-8z for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 04:08:52 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eNb7m-0007iW-3Y for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 04:08:47 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:58590) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1eNb7f-0007aY-DR; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 04:08:39 -0500 Received: from auth2-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.228]:56417) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA256:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1eNb7f-0005T3-11; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 04:08:39 -0500 Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailauth.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA288208C1; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 04:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 09 Dec 2017 04:08:38 -0500 X-ME-Sender: Received: from localhost (76-234-69-149.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net [76.234.69.149]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 42F0A7E16E; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 04:08:38 -0500 (EST) From: John Wiegley In-Reply-To: <83h8t0uvjz.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 09 Dec 2017 10:58:40 +0200") Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 01:08:35 -0800 Message-ID: References: <83mv2twl5w.fsf@gnu.org> <83h8t0uvjz.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.90 (darwin) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) >>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > The disk space is not the issue, I think, not nowadays. I believe the issue > is the _number_ of files in the trash: if there are an awful lot of them, > they make looking for those "precious" mistakenly deleted files harder. Or > at least this is my understanding; I don't use trash, so have no experience > of my own to share. That I can buy. A daily update in my case would result in half a million files over the course of a month. -- John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 From unknown Tue Jun 17 22:28:29 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29586: Please revert change to package deletion Resent-From: Adam Porter Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 18:56:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29586 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: John Wiegley Cc: 29586@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii Received: via spool by 29586-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29586.151284575627931 (code B ref 29586); Sat, 09 Dec 2017 18:56:01 +0000 Received: (at 29586) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Dec 2017 18:55:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54084 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eNkI0-0007GQ-JU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 13:55:56 -0500 Received: from mail-wm0-f50.google.com ([74.125.82.50]:33907) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eNkHz-0007GD-13 for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 13:55:55 -0500 Received: by mail-wm0-f50.google.com with SMTP id y82so8278924wmg.1 for <29586@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 10:55:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=zsVt20QJHMjwhHYHiAk95SAtWY6XoSOWlD6hsS+Gh7U=; b=AuQ2rFxdpPeDeC6hf8cqDzDlvaIJP7khQKLwDEtYdP9B9CTaVwbiINNd7tiARo7LAo iDBObkRJs3qwY31ki8Z7G+vZx8Z//NndebjWgzXPjjbp456rpAv2H2KAc7hd07xAghh3 FJrYdOa3BdlfkekVdLvlbYyjQ1CMTh/jUcI8FQy0Q7PjiQcUqTpV0McFxhZ/RIzbZBSs dCIalyqJlyzMl0B49XeJ0UfwXsQgA7L1bY3/i/pefnKatACWlR8zCnnllAC+jnSZgecX BJDekwcIStxPrmUAMO+oVsw/bWRKVXhTWGFUrJmdWnHiAXqyT9GyGjJCqVuqzt/CF3IP MXRg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zsVt20QJHMjwhHYHiAk95SAtWY6XoSOWlD6hsS+Gh7U=; b=jvBgGuDKTEh1Of/lEHCixv341b2l75v9alfVHeAO8xqoQNUfAfOrf/te1wCQwULgMJ 2LFe4ztdoWdh0iCaqrV8hNbnsIvh6A90QAdiklrEJTf1GzQu2tWLhwvuAGsikI8WLH7i 2CP1Tm7Z0TIz4BnITf2T2s7JfZTsyScZdIVzMIGNDKkGR0fiZfWFLZwNxSBZ1kzYmZmk u65Gov1lPwt5i4OkkUaX0v5Ibw4jqz35H3EDEIyJT1pX9IFeIW6fCEZci31ifxmQWsvS plBAxAscMylOeCiXy/5m+pjM08UuHPH6hWS4zK7LIk1AD8oLaNnaWJ1jd02XFGQR+tqx b7NQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX6AoPta7NH45zUApIBlKZJLFzq9J0szPyYjpOvp43SDDATDinVN l508blZIDmGCYYQv7CLvq5A5zzoBfxML9YCeIuk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZrEvCrUO3DSB6AEk0MmY/oyRcTjzkhbBhzSzxsq1KeTJLJ5A7GLiFAYhMiuEeoUkMIt3GzIWPPC1cusmj/o/k= X-Received: by 10.80.135.86 with SMTP id 22mr53574416edv.266.1512845749100; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 10:55:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.148.214 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Dec 2017 10:55:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <83mv2twl5w.fsf@gnu.org> <83h8t0uvjz.fsf@gnu.org> From: Adam Porter Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 12:55:48 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: prO7mIUBLyRd9wF-cmMiUmVMQQ4 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 3:08 AM, John Wiegley wrote: >>>>>> Eli Zaretskii writes: > >> The disk space is not the issue, I think, not nowadays. I believe the issue >> is the _number_ of files in the trash: if there are an awful lot of them, >> they make looking for those "precious" mistakenly deleted files harder. Or >> at least this is my understanding; I don't use trash, so have no experience >> of my own to share. > > That I can buy. A daily update in my case would result in half a million files > over the course of a month. That's not an unreasonable concern, however there are (or ought to be) some mitigating factors: 1. Emacs should move the package directory to the trash, not the individual files within it. This will appear as a single directory in the trash. 2. Trash bin UI should provide filtering and sorting to easily narrow down what's in it. For example, using Dolphin in KDE, there is extensive sorting, by deletion date, original path, filename, size, etc. And there's a filter-as-you-type bar to narrow results quickly. Of course I have no objection to Emacs users who don't want this behavior. If the patch I mentioned were merged, everyone could have the behavior they want instead of it being hard-coded one way or the other. From unknown Tue Jun 17 22:28:29 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#29586: Please revert change to package deletion Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2022 19:43:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 29586 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: adam@alphapapa.net, 29586@debbugs.gnu.org, John Wiegley Received: via spool by 29586-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B29586.164391733424237 (code B ref 29586); Thu, 03 Feb 2022 19:43:02 +0000 Received: (at 29586) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Feb 2022 19:42:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57913 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nFhzi-0006Iq-0C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Feb 2022 14:42:14 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:54288) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nFhzh-0006Ia-4g for 29586@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Feb 2022 14:42:13 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=KUAZhh28YFwWdilsj0Dh82AUTJhnzgkYdbAeEcFIdpQ=; b=tEJKUvP4DJ6/mbS+Je5oqpYhXu f9E0C+DFL5o0YMO1y0ONfM2xcrmr2UQGB3MArAgVykYTlr0wNOfOVK1/ZveH5V6m9izCNIFTTZZlO 8trpeglGINvkZ3JVpctt4TdfkyszoTIqxQeIB9ETA4Qy0zs2y5F7sKQLEqOGAElIhxlU=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=giant) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nFhzX-0003oN-7g; Thu, 03 Feb 2022 20:42:06 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen References: <83mv2twl5w.fsf@gnu.org> <83h8t0uvjz.fsf@gnu.org> X-Now-Playing: Richard And Linda Thompson's _Pour Down Like Silver_: "Dark End of the Street" Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2022 20:42:02 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83h8t0uvjz.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 09 Dec 2017 10:58:40 +0200") Message-ID: <87h79fn3ed.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: > The disk space is not the issue, I think, not nowadays. I believe the > issue is the _number_ of files in the trash: if there are an awful lot > of them, they make looking for those "precious" mista [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: > The disk space is not the issue, I think, not nowadays. I believe the > issue is the _number_ of files in the trash: if there are an awful lot > of them, they make looking for those "precious" mistakenly deleted > files harder. Or at least this is my understanding; I don't use > trash, so have no experience of my own to share. (I'm going through old bug reports that unfortunately weren't resolved at the time.) As far as I can tell, package.el package-delete still deletes (and doesn't trash) the files, and I can't recall seeing any requests to change this (outside this bug report), so there doesn't seem to be any great demand for that, and I'm therefore closing this bug report. (People that want this can now advise `package--delete-directory', so it's easier to change the behaviour in Emacs 28 than it was in previous versions.) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 03 14:42:19 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Feb 2022 19:42:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57916 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nFhzn-0006J9-DP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Feb 2022 14:42:19 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:54304) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nFhzl-0006Ii-VJ for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Feb 2022 14:42:18 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=dJtd/CdMBFnDwVKfG0UN1KkpVOBw9hflfj5lHaKaHsA=; b=NEzEIof9Zuj7boa+YpkqdXhxGz WYqCTI7RDto6vr6904ZFntWJZ1+XxnCN3hOB7WFsKb9IdmqU9m2GNPE++KbqicTlUEiUY8Sx2yj7P nTz4gDxoTIA/iMa+awusp47VYVL082T/AO4+jsMI0vi+IULuvLtFRsX+sKP1jnbQsQVg=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=giant) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nFhzd-0003qg-Ng for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 03 Feb 2022 20:42:12 +0100 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2022 20:42:09 +0100 Message-Id: <87fsozn3e6.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #29586 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: tags 29586 wontfix close 29586 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tags 29586 wontfix close 29586 quit