From unknown Sun Jun 22 11:38:18 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#28736 <28736@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#28736 <28736@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 24.5; doc of `push' Reply-To: bug#28736 <28736@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2025 18:38:18 +0000 retitle 28736 24.5; doc of `push' reassign 28736 emacs submitter 28736 Drew Adams severity 28736 wishlist tag 28736 notabug wontfix thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Oct 07 22:57:21 2017 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Oct 2017 02:57:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55338 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e11mJ-00016U-EW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Oct 2017 22:57:21 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:57701) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e11mG-00016C-Js for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Oct 2017 22:57:17 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e11mA-00072n-NE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Oct 2017 22:57:11 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:41013) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e11mA-00072a-KK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 07 Oct 2017 22:57:10 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48671) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e11m9-0004T1-Cm for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Oct 2017 22:57:10 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e11m6-00070A-6Q for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Oct 2017 22:57:09 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:42717) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e11m5-0006zD-U5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Oct 2017 22:57:06 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v982v1M4032353 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2017 02:57:01 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v982v0VH030189 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2017 02:57:01 GMT Received: from abhmp0006.oracle.com (abhmp0006.oracle.com [141.146.116.12]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v982uxGf015718 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2017 02:56:59 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <53afe0a4-8ce5-45fc-9e18-6bf52018c9b6@default> Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2017 19:56:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.5; doc of `push' X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4588.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Both the doc string and the Elisp manual entry should say that `push' returns the new value of the place that it updates. The doc says nothing about the return value. The return value is implied by the doc, which says that `push' is "morally equivalent" to (setf PLACE (cons NEWELT PLACE)), and one Can figure out that `setf' returns the new value. But the doc should just say explicitly what the return value is, instead of making users dig it out or check the code. This is morally equivalent to (setf PLACE (cons NEWELT PLACE)), except that PLACE is only evaluated once (after NEWELT). Also, the use of "morally equivalent" here, though perhaps intended to be cute, as a joke of sorts, is inappropriate and possibly confusing. What matters is that the behavior and return value are equivalent, with the proviso mentioned: that PLACE is evaluated only once (after NEWELT). In GNU Emacs 24.5.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2015-04-11 on LEG570 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/usr --host=3Di686-pc-mingw32' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 08 02:04:39 2017 Received: (at 28736) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Oct 2017 06:04:39 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55417 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e14ha-00060x-Pn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 02:04:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53242) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e14hZ-00060l-Dj for 28736@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 02:04:37 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e14hR-00022H-6D for 28736@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 02:04:32 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:32811) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e14hR-00022D-3F; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 02:04:29 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3334 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1e14hP-0004w9-Ix; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 02:04:27 -0400 Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2017 09:04:23 +0300 Message-Id: <83h8vatbtk.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <53afe0a4-8ce5-45fc-9e18-6bf52018c9b6@default> (message from Drew Adams on Sat, 7 Oct 2017 19:56:58 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#28736: 24.5; doc of `push' References: <53afe0a4-8ce5-45fc-9e18-6bf52018c9b6@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28736 Cc: 28736@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2017 19:56:58 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > > Both the doc string and the Elisp manual entry should say that `push' > returns the new value of the place that it updates. The doc says > nothing about the return value. That usually means we don't want to advertise the return value, and that programs should not depend on it. Why is that a problem in this case? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 08 12:50:48 2017 Received: (at 28736) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Oct 2017 16:50:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56598 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e1Emt-0006ug-Sn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:50:48 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:31881) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e1Ems-0006uU-Jo for 28736@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 12:50:47 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v98GodYY016603 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Oct 2017 16:50:40 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v98GodbF011626 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Oct 2017 16:50:39 GMT Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v98Goc1G014246; Sun, 8 Oct 2017 16:50:38 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <09655ed0-be2c-4453-9755-224ec733e221@default> Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2017 09:50:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Subject: RE: bug#28736: 24.5; doc of `push' References: <<53afe0a4-8ce5-45fc-9e18-6bf52018c9b6@default>> <<83h8vatbtk.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83h8vatbtk.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4588.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28736 Cc: 28736@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > Both the doc string and the Elisp manual entry should say that `push' > > returns the new value of the place that it updates. The doc says > > nothing about the return value. >=20 > That usually means Usually? Maybe. In this case? Who knows? > we don't want to advertise the return value, and > that programs should not depend on it. Well, now, that would be quite strange in this case. This is taken directly from Common Lisp (with some functionality lost), where it is not only prominently documented but it has also been widely used - for decades. > Why is that a problem in this case? No. The right question is why is it a problem to document this? This is an important part of the behavior of the macro. Why should we _not_ inform users about this useful feature? This is no different (zero difference, in fact) from documenting that `setq' returns the value of its (last) assignment. (Not to mention that we document the return value of `pop'.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 08 13:15:30 2017 Received: (at 28736) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Oct 2017 17:15:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56610 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e1FAl-0007VN-B5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 13:15:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:60604) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e1FAg-0007V5-LF for 28736@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 13:15:26 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e1FAW-0002wR-D3 for 28736@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 13:15:17 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:41056) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e1FAW-0002wL-AH; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 13:15:12 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4272 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1e1FAV-0000A7-La; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 13:15:12 -0400 Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2017 20:15:09 +0300 Message-Id: <83wp45sgrm.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <09655ed0-be2c-4453-9755-224ec733e221@default> (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 8 Oct 2017 09:50:37 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#28736: 24.5; doc of `push' References: <<53afe0a4-8ce5-45fc-9e18-6bf52018c9b6@default>> <<83h8vatbtk.fsf@gnu.org>> <09655ed0-be2c-4453-9755-224ec733e221@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28736 Cc: 28736@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2017 09:50:37 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 28736@debbugs.gnu.org > > > Why is that a problem in this case? > > No. The right question is why is it a problem to document > this? Because we don't want to guarantee the return value won't change in the future? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 08 13:48:42 2017 Received: (at 28736) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Oct 2017 17:48:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56629 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e1Fgw-0008Ix-KQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 13:48:42 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:51058) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e1Fgv-0008Ik-FQ for 28736@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 13:48:41 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v98HmYYp023143 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Oct 2017 17:48:35 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v98HmYHb022564 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Oct 2017 17:48:34 GMT Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v98HmXsl030474; Sun, 8 Oct 2017 17:48:34 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <9d23e7ad-ff25-4dac-b598-6614b272bebc@default> Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2017 10:48:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#28736: 24.5; doc of `push' References: <<<53afe0a4-8ce5-45fc-9e18-6bf52018c9b6@default>>> <<<83h8vatbtk.fsf@gnu.org>>> <<09655ed0-be2c-4453-9755-224ec733e221@default>> <<83wp45sgrm.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83wp45sgrm.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4588.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28736 Cc: 28736@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) > > The right question is why is it a problem to document this? >=20 > Because we don't want to guarantee the return value won't > change in the future? Are you sure? When was that decided? Just now? Why would we want to do that? Gratuitously acting different from Common Lisp (and all other Lisps?) in this case wouldn't seem to be advantageous. Do you see a good reason to do that? And why ""? I wonder if your answer might have been different if a different person had filed this bug... From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 08 14:13:43 2017 Received: (at 28736) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Oct 2017 18:13:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56633 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e1G55-0000RM-Mn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 14:13:43 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:40947) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e1G50-0000R4-TE for 28736@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 14:13:38 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e1G4r-0005vv-7e for 28736@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 14:13:29 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:41598) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e1G4r-0005vp-41; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 14:13:25 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:4290 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1e1G4p-0001FA-Ju; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 14:13:24 -0400 Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2017 21:13:15 +0300 Message-Id: <83tvz9se2s.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <9d23e7ad-ff25-4dac-b598-6614b272bebc@default> (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 8 Oct 2017 10:48:32 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#28736: 24.5; doc of `push' References: <<<53afe0a4-8ce5-45fc-9e18-6bf52018c9b6@default>>> <<<83h8vatbtk.fsf@gnu.org>>> <<09655ed0-be2c-4453-9755-224ec733e221@default>> <<83wp45sgrm.fsf@gnu.org>> <9d23e7ad-ff25-4dac-b598-6614b272bebc@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28736 Cc: 28736@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2017 10:48:32 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 28736@debbugs.gnu.org > > > > The right question is why is it a problem to document this? > > > > Because we don't want to guarantee the return value won't > > change in the future? > > Are you sure? No. > When was that decided? I don't know if it was decided and when, I was just wondering whether the lack of documentation is deliberate or an omission. > Just now? That's uncalled-for. > And why ""? I wonder if your answer might have been > different if a different person had filed this bug... Why would you wonder about that? Have I ever treated your bug reports different from anyone else's? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 08 15:40:23 2017 Received: (at 28736) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Oct 2017 19:40:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56682 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e1HR1-0002bT-My for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 15:40:23 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:25623) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e1HQy-0002bG-UG for 28736@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Oct 2017 15:40:22 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v98JeEJm014834 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Oct 2017 19:40:14 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v98JeDQj010529 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Oct 2017 19:40:13 GMT Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v98Je9Vs028969; Sun, 8 Oct 2017 19:40:11 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2017 12:40:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: bug#28736: 24.5; doc of `push' References: <<<<53afe0a4-8ce5-45fc-9e18-6bf52018c9b6@default>>>> <<<<83h8vatbtk.fsf@gnu.org>>>> <<<09655ed0-be2c-4453-9755-224ec733e221@default>>> <<<83wp45sgrm.fsf@gnu.org>>> <<9d23e7ad-ff25-4dac-b598-6614b272bebc@default>> <<83tvz9se2s.fsf@gnu.org>> In-Reply-To: <<83tvz9se2s.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4588.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28736 Cc: 28736@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) > > > > why is it a problem to document this? > > > > > > Because we don't want to guarantee the return > > > value won't change in the future? > > > > Are you sure? >=20 > No. >=20 > > When was that decided? >=20 > I don't know if it was decided and when, I was just wondering > whether the lack of documentation is deliberate or an omission. Good. Neither do I know that we don't want to guarantee that the return value won't change. Nor do I know whether the lack of documentation was deliberate or not. Nor do I know a reason why we wouldn't want to document the behavior, guarantee or no guarantee.=20 Not having any reason to think there was a deliberate decision not to document this, and not knowing any good reason why it should not be documented, whether it was deliberate or (a priori more likely) an oversight, and knowing good reasons why it _should_ be documented (it is useful, and documenting that use is the practice in Lisp in general, and it fits what we do for things like `setq'), this should be a no-brainer, IMO. But if there is a good reason why it should not be documented, let's hear it, please. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 09 02:56:20 2017 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Oct 2017 06:56:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57021 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e1RzA-0003wC-Do for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2017 02:56:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:34677) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e1Rz8-0003vw-Ch for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2017 02:56:18 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e1Rz1-0007iJ-VF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2017 02:56:13 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:58668) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e1Rz1-0007iF-RG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2017 02:56:11 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53878) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e1Rz0-0005WJ-Gz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2017 02:56:11 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e1Ryw-0007gG-Kl for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2017 02:56:10 -0400 Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.17.13]:55879) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e1Ryw-0007ec-8z for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 09 Oct 2017 02:56:06 -0400 Received: from [192.168.178.35] ([77.12.177.117]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue103 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LlHiI-1dSwB33PgE-00b6am for ; Mon, 09 Oct 2017 08:56:04 +0200 Subject: Re: bug#28736: 24.5; doc of `push' To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org References: <<<<53afe0a4-8ce5-45fc-9e18-6bf52018c9b6@default> <<<<83h8vatbtk.fsf@gnu.org> <<<09655ed0-be2c-4453-9755-224ec733e221@default> <<<83wp45sgrm.fsf@gnu.org> <<9d23e7ad-ff25-4dac-b598-6614b272bebc@default> <<83tvz9se2s.fsf@gnu.org> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Andreas_R=c3=b6hler?= Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2017 09:13:04 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0595B02D271A6C0C7F9B70E1" Content-Language: en-US X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:tsj8zmcNglpJwJxvXe7qp1MgXfKWpC4ThcWIwzvkP7MO38rTDNo v5FAdNIf7SPoqtB4zQVNnnPQDJmHgkg1Gc7WQEa6xqswBaSiqCMFEVS7HtKW0Qp+KBSbf47 0PsxCOrx9cqpBFR6gNzPR8kQkgOmtkUj8E1qNdJmb8kpB6Zh766si6HuCI+/dD99t9Zjppa T9ROYAb90xPc5wCNkPBGA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:RH9L3JpPv68=:BwmaMJrCKqCfW5dtEs/GYz zYjI/XJVk34EIcp87tme3A2CP6PkgoxEg2Derf3BM5IvnOs93yWkhGYTopWaKl6ffIQk8ULIr AuM46taytU+eMTUhKMtczBZGK41nh2zL5Pvd7i4xVK4c8lC5Y9PmrGoV5OjKoJhzHesg+i7je hQNlT+ssJ3jnPVPA3yEC3R03Wc5o1xUYStanQEuI9gwdj03Xml993AfFuz7ze8k9PulArCqWs tLS1LpsPMb1FumPjzFuew2nq9quHGBehZfdMfMIfpJWlNWG6p73Qapr37tFyk9apAOVa8YRip ijyLw23PWhlD+pnBH5A4rV90GKww/UAszTJ2eZ8IZ8EBwyHMzy9EMmUdcREfROwl8Pfkls6Vy AGlHHhHhsFs2cc0bTOhe2HpdN2DpkEhB0wT4uIusiwCW5GnMsBjSz1kk9m6mdeBYEPRf4VxWp RuD6ZWkUi8A1EogFA13FpHD6wkPiPHsUnYpg/olkbRiwP4eoFFnacJGke8MgmIFXqmxvAX7rn s6IfNNKhEL+9TR+lamaNWYfxSwg6HeutpX3sPUf+K2Q/UuiU2moNDapPQdh75jmgKsGaXSPDn 3SbDS00lSANhSGlARYNgjdQ6eW84AxreAClabAyHegksWJKoJbz0zTLOArcKTO/5jQcyravh6 +vStrDDIvvomqoCfZm4ESKL4/b95Ks56rfyOBNkjA3FUSsFdyUuRF1pAe+qrVVBdCxlIWaj3B x4nZw966p/TX/wEEJIySg/x7cBiMGcyCwtoj9Mwkpq+Wb1dQ89eQ2WMlnJU= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0595B02D271A6C0C7F9B70E1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 08.10.2017 21:40, Drew Adams wrote: >>>>> why is it a problem to document this? >>>> Because we don't want to guarantee the return >>>> value won't change in the future? >>> Are you sure? >> No. >> >>> When was that decided? >> I don't know if it was decided and when, I was just wondering >> whether the lack of documentation is deliberate or an omission. > Good. Neither do I know that we don't want to guarantee > that the return value won't change. Nor do I know whether > the lack of documentation was deliberate or not. Nor do I > know a reason why we wouldn't want to document the behavior, > guarantee or no guarantee. > > Not having any reason to think there was a deliberate > decision not to document this, and not knowing any good > reason why it should not be documented, whether it was > deliberate or (a priori more likely) an oversight, and > knowing good reasons why it _should_ be documented (it > is useful, and documenting that use is the practice in > Lisp in general, and it fits what we do for things like > `setq'), this should be a no-brainer, IMO. > > But if there is a good reason why it should not be > documented, let's hear it, please. > > > +1 --------------0595B02D271A6C0C7F9B70E1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



On 08.10.2017 21:40, Drew Adams wrote:
why is it a problem to document this?

<Shrug> Because we don't want to guarantee the return
value won't change in the future?

Are you sure?

No.


When was that decided?

I don't know if it was decided and when, I was just wondering
whether the lack of documentation is deliberate or an omission.

Good.  Neither do I know that we don't want to guarantee
that the return value won't change.  Nor do I know whether
the lack of documentation was deliberate or not.  Nor do I
know a reason why we wouldn't want to document the behavior,
guarantee or no guarantee. 

Not having any reason to think there was a deliberate
decision not to document this, and not knowing any good
reason why it should not be documented, whether it was
deliberate or (a priori more likely) an oversight, and
knowing good reasons why it _should_ be documented (it
is useful, and documenting that use is the practice in
Lisp in general, and it fits what we do for things like
`setq'), this should be a no-brainer, IMO.

But if there is a good reason why it should not be
documented, let's hear it, please.

+1
--------------0595B02D271A6C0C7F9B70E1-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 25 11:41:10 2021 Received: (at 28736) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Sep 2021 15:41:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34395 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mU9nZ-0006HL-Rp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 11:41:10 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f172.google.com ([209.85.214.172]:45671) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mU9nY-0006H1-CS for 28736@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 11:41:08 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f172.google.com with SMTP id n2so8585815plk.12 for <28736@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:41:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EwepD2Iy2CRbFJD8i9gDUu3PXEq1Ue0h2YUpw9nnkkc=; b=XxR++8G0POZ0a+2fa/5dx1C7Zk8XnNs3ebK3qbn04msKqkZoZzkrJMyoZR9hRzZE0l dikPYgoR1qSaWl64Nu3jmk5mCHprIRS6gVztKFiwZ3xSLQQDYpcz/CGFpx1Iv8JIoINH pKZdG0eo6rxz7PJeRsT3jaFZm413RSR4ImHc0nUyHDETKhSj0mdl2zF7gbAmReWg17f8 6704kFZfMWesCWmudpskgoEVAyfTfNFxXo2qfsKmcTtAFp0xshjsdQBjPYhQlV1zJ2zx wgZkumWli1cRDrQF2cuihYygFSB9A0iu0liRl1Cbp0EeclODgK/HHkFf7yko331iqdZ9 C9Gg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532j1+YNq2+tdSOKEmf7Lp5yYMlLIZe36cQ+qUbfN7AGM27Y2eVs 3jNItQFFbwkPhje7GxZ5X/NiCmT5xn1d854BD0U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw++FzlrjQWFbnH9ISrO4IWl8pbgomkhTe9oGwzGk7/1OOEYZmQnTUsSzVwJxT/qrgr/i5pFETKsRd8AMXVVUs= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3805:: with SMTP id mq5mr8895755pjb.143.1632584462381; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:41:01 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas In-Reply-To: <83tvz9se2s.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 08 Oct 2017 21:13:15 +0300") References: <53afe0a4-8ce5-45fc-9e18-6bf52018c9b6@default>>> <83h8vatbtk.fsf@gnu.org>>> <09655ed0-be2c-4453-9755-224ec733e221@default>> <83wp45sgrm.fsf@gnu.org>> <9d23e7ad-ff25-4dac-b598-6614b272bebc@default> <83tvz9se2s.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 08:41:01 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#28736: 24.5; doc of `push' To: Eli Zaretskii Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28736 Cc: 28736@debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) tags 28736 wontfix notabug close 28736 thanks Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2017 10:48:32 -0700 (PDT) >> From: Drew Adams >> Cc: 28736@debbugs.gnu.org >> >> > > The right question is why is it a problem to document this? >> > >> > Because we don't want to guarantee the return value won't >> > change in the future? >> >> Are you sure? > > No. The question here is if the return value of `push' should be documented. I took a look at Common Lisp, and they do not document its return value.[1] I think it's fine for us to also not document it, unless someone can show a clear reason why it should be. I'm therefore closing this bug report. 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Sat, 25 Sep 2021 16:43:09 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Stefan Kangas , Eli Zaretskii Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#28736: 24.5; doc of `push' Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#28736: 24.5; doc of `push' Thread-Index: AQHXsiPBLUo6nTKlYEmmC4QmZYVk2au07pFA Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2021 16:43:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <53afe0a4-8ce5-45fc-9e18-6bf52018c9b6@default>>> <83h8vatbtk.fsf@gnu.org>>> <09655ed0-be2c-4453-9755-224ec733e221@default>> <83wp45sgrm.fsf@gnu.org>> <9d23e7ad-ff25-4dac-b598-6614b272bebc@default> <83tvz9se2s.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: marxist.se; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;marxist.se; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 2df05cde-465e-47d0-fff6-08d980438eb4 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR10MB4146: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. 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