From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 28 12:48:08 2017 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Aug 2017 16:48:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59583 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dmNCq-0000rE-JG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 12:48:08 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:56713) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dmNCo-0000qn-LP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 12:48:07 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dmNCi-0000zb-Mq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 12:48:01 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:39080) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dmNCi-0000z8-KF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 12:48:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47670) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dmNCh-0006Ww-8o for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 12:48:00 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dmNCe-0000gb-5t for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 12:47:59 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:32127) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dmNCd-0000WC-Rm for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 12:47:56 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v7SGlq2E000348 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 16:47:53 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v7SGlqGW031026 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 16:47:52 GMT Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v7SGlqEs001584 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 16:47:52 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <936768a0-1a2e-4a89-8a11-8f1779f8591d@default> Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 09:47:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: 24.5; Org: `C-c LETTER' keys X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6774.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) Dunno whether there are actual bindings in Org that correspond to these occurrences in the source code of `C-c' followed by a letter. Might be worth checking. (Bindings of `C-c' followed by a letter are reserved for users.) Possibly these are just vestigial doc indications, which could be corrected/updated. In org-agenda.el: ["Find FLAGGED Tasks" (org-agenda nil "?") :active t :keys "C-c a ?"] (defun org-agenda-kill-all-agenda-buffers () "Kill all buffers in `org-agenda-mode'. This is used when toggling sticky agendas. You can also explicitly invoke it with `C-c a C-k'."... In org.el: commands `org-search-view' (`C-c a s') and `org-occur-in-agenda-files'. ["Global TODO list" org-todo-list :active t :keys "C-c a t"] ["Find FLAGGED Tasks" (org-agenda nil "?") :active t :keys "C-c a ?"] In GNU Emacs 24.5.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2015-04-11 on LEG570 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D/c/usr --host=3Di686-pc-mingw32' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 28 13:12:57 2017 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Aug 2017 17:12:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59594 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dmNar-0001Qv-3D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 13:12:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:35410) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dmNap-0001Qh-HD for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 13:12:55 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dmNaj-0007T9-9e for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 13:12:50 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:49451) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dmNaj-0007T2-73 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 13:12:49 -0400 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dmNai-00017r-UC for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2017 13:12:49 -0400 Subject: control message for bug 28263 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.99.98) Message-Id: From: Glenn Morris Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 13:12:48 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) reassign 28263 org-mode From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 04 16:45:05 2017 Received: (at 28263-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Dec 2017 21:45:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46050 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eLyXw-00087h-TL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 16:45:05 -0500 Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.194]:41636) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eLyXv-00087Z-Fn for 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 16:45:03 -0500 Received: from saiph.selenimh (000043010000000000000469.ipv6.commingeshautdebit.fr [IPv6:2a03:a0a0:0:4301::469]) (Authenticated sender: mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr) by relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 77908C5A5D; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 22:45:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from ngz by saiph.selenimh with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eLyXt-0006Nr-Pn; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 22:45:01 +0100 From: Nicolas Goaziou To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#28263: 24.5; Org: `C-c LETTER' keys In-Reply-To: <936768a0-1a2e-4a89-8a11-8f1779f8591d@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 28 Aug 2017 09:47:51 -0700 (PDT)") References: <936768a0-1a2e-4a89-8a11-8f1779f8591d@default> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (gnu/linux) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 22:45:01 +0100 Message-ID: <87374qb21u.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28263-done Cc: 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Hello, Drew Adams writes: > Dunno whether there are actual bindings in Org that correspond to these > occurrences in the source code of `C-c' followed by a letter. Might be > worth checking. (Bindings of `C-c' followed by a letter are reserved > for users.) Possibly these are just vestigial doc indications, which > could be corrected/updated. Org's manual suggests to bind `org-agenda' to `C-c a', but doesn't bind it by default. > In org-agenda.el: > > ["Find FLAGGED Tasks" (org-agenda nil "?") :active t :keys "C-c a ?"] > > (defun org-agenda-kill-all-agenda-buffers () > "Kill all buffers in `org-agenda-mode'. > This is used when toggling sticky agendas. > You can also explicitly invoke it with `C-c a C-k'."... > > In org.el: > > commands `org-search-view' (`C-c a s') and `org-occur-in-agenda-files'. > ["Global TODO list" org-todo-list :active t :keys "C-c a t"] > ["Find FLAGGED Tasks" (org-agenda nil "?") :active t :keys "C-c > a ?"] Fixed (I used \\[org-agenda] instead of C-c a). Thank you. Regards, -- Nicolas Goaziou 0x80A93738 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 04 17:43:06 2017 Received: (at 28263-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Dec 2017 22:43:06 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46089 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eLzS5-000159-Pj for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 17:43:05 -0500 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:59518) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eLzS3-00014e-O9 for 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 04 Dec 2017 17:43:04 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vB4MfY9e136309; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 22:42:57 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=Id8CprzdDvcbmtFuywtaOV2wRA+cc8j0o6PxGgef/oo=; b=Usu4kqDVNGiYaU9SRWlXzIgVzQBq/tYVTZKpdBg/ktznHahLlr8pNzAKPRVx6DqT8Tl7 4exfFskPTeXOQIl1JzA4NONyuEw7MMZb17VrS9NYbagL8k6lWUtDOBJxnomWd27ll9fO w20IQrP7iUpPLHtTMNrgKNwKN9Tt1y9FZOVZxJKpi7sOPphxhF2aj9n+IMWHueHYh2Lq 804xCGXBEntUfmpBWdzFQAkbQd+bjLxGCgLp9W+Zb91GG6FE1Eqq7yNqjDJhX+zeo+uT NDWxr6/ah0FWbGkvDkM6krBKSmZ8Huvvh01VDTdQb0cGc4GYTFC3bHv92nLzK0orONve xA== Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2ekpeymybd-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 04 Dec 2017 22:42:57 +0000 Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vB4Mgvtc009120 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 4 Dec 2017 22:42:57 GMT Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vB4Mgt18008612; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 22:42:56 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <0f47b7da-82d7-4521-aaf6-f2430876ccc2@default> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 14:42:54 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Nicolas Goaziou Subject: RE: bug#28263: 24.5; Org: `C-c LETTER' keys References: <936768a0-1a2e-4a89-8a11-8f1779f8591d@default> <87374qb21u.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> In-Reply-To: <87374qb21u.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4615.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8735 signatures=668637 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1709140000 definitions=main-1712040318 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28263-done Cc: 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > > Dunno whether there are actual bindings in Org that correspond to these > > occurrences in the source code of `C-c' followed by a letter. Might be > > worth checking. (Bindings of `C-c' followed by a letter are reserved > > for users.) Possibly these are just vestigial doc indications, which > > could be corrected/updated. >=20 > Org's manual suggests to bind `org-agenda' to `C-c a', but doesn't bind > it by default. I'm not even sure that's a great idea. I think not. I suppose it's "legit", as the user, not the Org code, would be making the binding. But in my libraries I provide binding suggestions only for keys that are not reserved for use by users. If a commonly used Emacs library (Org is the best example of that) suggests to users that they bind `C-c a' to something then that key becomes pretty much, in effect, lost as a key reserved for user customization. IOW, if 90% of Emacs users follow that suggestion then there is little difference between that situation and the situation of Org binding `C-c a' by default. My vote would be that Org should not do this. Just one opinion. > Fixed (I used \\[org-agenda] instead of C-c a). Thank you. Thanks for doing that. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 05 06:28:33 2017 Received: (at 28263-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2017 11:28:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46467 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMBOr-00033u-La for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 06:28:33 -0500 Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.196]:33150) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMBOo-00033j-UB for 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 06:28:31 -0500 Received: from saiph.selenimh (000043010000000000000469.ipv6.commingeshautdebit.fr [IPv6:2a03:a0a0:0:4301::469]) (Authenticated sender: mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr) by relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B245F1720DB; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 12:28:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from ngz by saiph.selenimh with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eMBOl-0007uJ-Oi; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 12:28:27 +0100 From: Nicolas Goaziou To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#28263: 24.5; Org: `C-c LETTER' keys In-Reply-To: <0f47b7da-82d7-4521-aaf6-f2430876ccc2@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 4 Dec 2017 14:42:54 -0800 (PST)") References: <936768a0-1a2e-4a89-8a11-8f1779f8591d@default> <87374qb21u.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <0f47b7da-82d7-4521-aaf6-f2430876ccc2@default> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (gnu/linux) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 12:28:27 +0100 Message-ID: <87h8t59zxg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28263-done Cc: 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Hello, Drew Adams writes: >> > Dunno whether there are actual bindings in Org that correspond to these >> > occurrences in the source code of `C-c' followed by a letter. Might be >> > worth checking. (Bindings of `C-c' followed by a letter are reserved >> > for users.) Possibly these are just vestigial doc indications, which >> > could be corrected/updated. >> >> Org's manual suggests to bind `org-agenda' to `C-c a', but doesn't bind >> it by default. > > I'm not even sure that's a great idea. I think not. > > I suppose it's "legit", as the user, not the Org code, would be > making the binding. But in my libraries I provide binding > suggestions only for keys that are not reserved for use by users. > > If a commonly used Emacs library (Org is the best example of that) > suggests to users that they bind `C-c a' to something then that > key becomes pretty much, in effect, lost as a key reserved for > user customization. > > IOW, if 90% of Emacs users follow that suggestion then there is > little difference between that situation and the situation of > Org binding `C-c a' by default. > > My vote would be that Org should not do this. Just one opinion. I understand your concern. However, Org tries to be as neutral as possible with this. Quoting the manual: The manual suggests a few global key bindings, in particular @kbd{C-c a} for @code{org-agenda} and @kbd{C-c c} for @code{org-capture}. These are only suggestions, but the rest of the manual assumes that these key bindings are in place in order to list commands by key access. As explained here, this "suggestion" is only necessary to clarify key bindings in the manual. `org-agenda' and `org-capture' bindings are really prefixes for many other commands. Having to write, e.g., "the prefix you chose for `org-agenda' then #" instead of "C-c a #" would be a lot more verbose, and ultimately, cripple documentation. I think the current state is quite fair. Regards, -- Nicolas Goaziou 0x80A93738 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 05 10:15:24 2017 Received: (at 28263-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Dec 2017 15:15:24 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47969 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMEwN-0003ui-Ly for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 10:15:23 -0500 Received: from aserp2130.oracle.com ([141.146.126.79]:51363) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMEwL-0003uW-QJ for 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 10:15:22 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vB5FC0mL119145; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 15:15:13 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=Q4k975aO0sl5DRfB0QXB4gP7czSwMsukcze6GK5Xrss=; b=ljckzs4k4GvSuCHWdIkWYAK9zD0t/DH18zSg9wt2XXupLS+gCk2799WMyToGEJ87D3WR wh81mzwcArwbK3WJLaP6QX/PUW7vRIlbmRS4o93YaPZeJT+2+pq2YJWyNYSbsROn2wTy HOF1FQOKnNWmMkfRQyYcVPUOD5oS64csHE4JHe/yU85ACbWHryCeez+8FAzFQYLleJLQ zbAijOMZLeF9/LpW0xUof7n25ZJ6dS0AyZEtkkZXhGY1s0C+xkVY1KOtXGwswS7vlqLu CaIpwaAk3f8N/MbydCcroT+tcS+1l1T3vwdFLGxyYXFlsaQUEag6II7QLiR1GQkpufr8 nA== Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by aserp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2en9pgugkx-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 05 Dec 2017 15:15:13 +0000 Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vB5FFCI0006288 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 5 Dec 2017 15:15:12 GMT Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vB5FFA0H006385; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 15:15:12 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 07:15:09 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Nicolas Goaziou Subject: RE: bug#28263: 24.5; Org: `C-c LETTER' keys References: <936768a0-1a2e-4a89-8a11-8f1779f8591d@default> <87374qb21u.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <0f47b7da-82d7-4521-aaf6-f2430876ccc2@default> <87h8t59zxg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> In-Reply-To: <87h8t59zxg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4615.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8735 signatures=668637 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1709140000 definitions=main-1712050220 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28263-done Cc: 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > >> Org's manual suggests to bind `org-agenda' to `C-c a',=20 > >> but doesn't bind it by default. > > > > I'm not even sure that's a great idea. I think not. > > > > I suppose it's "legit", as the user, not the Org code, > > would be making the binding. But in my libraries I=20 > > provide binding suggestions only for keys that are not=20 > > reserved for use by users. > > > > If a commonly used Emacs library (Org is the best example > > of that) suggests to users that they bind `C-c a' to=20 > > something then that key becomes pretty much, in effect, > > lost as a key reserved for user customization. > > > > IOW, if 90% of Emacs users follow that suggestion then there=20 > > is little difference between that situation and the situation=20 > > of Org binding `C-c a' by default. > > > > My vote would be that Org should not do this. Just one=20 > > opinion. >=20 > I understand your concern. However, Org tries to be as neutral > as possible with this. Quoting the manual: >=20 > The manual suggests a few global key bindings, in particular=20 > @kbd{C-c a} for @code{org-agenda} and @kbd{C-c c} for=20 > @code{org-capture}. These are only suggestions, but the rest=20 > of the manual assumes that these key bindings are in place in=20 > order to list commands by key access. That's even worse, IMHO. And hardly "as neutral as possible". Why should the manual list commands by key access that Org does _not_ bind to keys? What's wrong with listing the commands by name? That's what Emacs does in its doc. My suggestion would be to bind keys in Org keymaps only, and leave it at that. The manual should definitely not present key bindings that are not made by Org, tossing out an introductory comment that they are shown only to "clarify bindings shown" or to prevent having to show command names or whatever. That approach is a bit backhanded, and it really flies against the spirit of (really!) reserving C-c LETTER keys for users. > As explained here, this "suggestion" is only necessary > to clarify key bindings in the manual. Clarify key bindings in the manual? Why are those key bindings in the manual? Describe the commands, not (formally, supposedly) fictitious key bindings for them. Either it is _important_ for Org to bind those commands to keys or it's not. If it is, then Org should find keys that are not reserved for users. As I said: > > provide binding suggestions only for keys that are > > not reserved for use by users If it is not important for Org itself to bind such keys, then no such "fictitious" global keys should be presented in the manual. > `org-agenda' and `org-capture' bindings are > really prefixes for many other commands. Having to write, e.g., > "the prefix you chose for `org-agenda' then #" instead of > "C-c a #" would be a lot more verbose, and ultimately, cripple=20 > documentation. My response to that: suck it up, or find a better way to describe it. You can perfectly well say "PK #", where PK is a prefix key bound to `org-agenda'. Or you can use, for illustration purposes, a key such as . (But using or C-c a is no better than using PK or whatever - you still need to say something like "Supposing that is a prefix key bound to `org-agenda'..."). And why do you need to refer to a key at all, instead of referring to the command? As I say, if it is so important that the command be bound to a key then bind it - but to a key that is not reserved for users. Don't ask users to bind their keys to provide something that you think Org really needs. If it needs keys for this then bind keys for it. If it does not then hands-off, and just speak about the commands. That's what other Emacs doc does. This is the wrong thing to do, IMO: The four Org commands 'org-store-link', 'org-capture', 'org-agenda', and 'org-iswitchb' should be accessible=20 through global keys (i.e., anywhere in Emacs, not just in Org buffers). Here are suggested bindings for these=20 keys, please modify the keys to your own liking. (global-set-key "\C-cl" 'org-store-link) (global-set-key "\C-ca" 'org-agenda) (global-set-key "\C-cc" 'org-capture) (global-set-key "\C-cb" 'org-iswitchb) If those commands "should" be on global keys then _Org should bind them to global keys_. And those global keys should _not_ be keys reserved for users. This looks like a shame-faced way of getting around the prohibition of libraries binding such keys globally. Especially for a library such as Org, which is very widely used. My suggestion would be to propose, to emacs-devel, to bind 4 keys globally for those Org commands - if you really feel they "should" be bound globally. IOW, stick up for what you believe. And if it is decided to bind those commands you can be sure that the keys decided on then will not be keys reserved for users. > I think the current state is quite fair. I disagree. It's a shame. (FWIW.) Emacs "should" do better. Just one opinion. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 06 02:58:28 2017 Received: (at 28263-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Dec 2017 07:58:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48485 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMUb6-0007gx-DG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 02:58:28 -0500 Received: from mail-qt0-f169.google.com ([209.85.216.169]:37238) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMUb3-0007gj-0M for 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 02:58:25 -0500 Received: by mail-qt0-f169.google.com with SMTP id f2so6937909qtj.4 for <28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 23:58:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; b=tlDtJak9KdcLGl4K7MHMgGHaX2t8ARzUf0y32koZOrLyXtmVfLCQvtCIlUCeJ2TISz iyZ4MZwP2hkxRtlY/cFGxQ8CKnWsLHSQBmhL4owCd24jep3r509EyQ3fk1wmQvylDPgO hc8W/6tcMMPlzcIQU9As8krLSq7Kl7ZSm7XbYIRREXZp2SpjFzapE3pdaBEyPQGHlhlq SlOVzYjzMDHngLYT1rkYcO54M6O+RPJxgZLLVSKhlYUdegAutatha4PLvySBxiuZ5WRh dSHHGlMhzD70WiB6g/ZLZXX3H9Rd+KmTk04HWquRCFH8VK3xxCeY80GLC7JDXarroOXE Gflg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; b=GmlyIAt7Z3A3aAmIkwf7k2zVODZViNWii/r9ZsuCqwAzlqtLvRToADoCMknFWjwIJq p7SeuojQIJtzVf0TcMOWz//AefImS/K2WwgBjFHxU0cMpm8MOSHzdmGBgZ+MKIqxrcch uwsYpfrtNSkyehBWHFLy3rv8cfAiR7jbWCx0dpYrt4GgtE5xbOXJNaFYWvzMZcttnyHB 7dUR+oiWGE9pxSaFpTNOR6Eo0JWfYmcvDDvWAaQo7/qKfWgswc0QYb/1LwCpTGP4uECt 1+n8y/tCMdKm05r8qIzlN3x5Sv/a33+JD8g9iMJIFKICkHjzQdraVECHcMdvzWBU8nBf 4aMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLaKxwrYjtxNaZsPMCSRbXhpCBHEWfVq/2P/xHOHrvGFJuJcePd jUW0X9dG/B5lSBe94F9cDmeUFHZslsJwWBRR9mo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMbIpRPOK+LGtrnz1yDiXUP6o48q5KVzLOa1Z4nUh71A1Y8PDsKX97nGsd9eIw6l/m1szTBaLZzi6mybyaMModw= X-Received: by 10.55.145.135 with SMTP id t129mr22630760qkd.205.1512547099329; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 23:58:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.55.36 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 23:58:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <936768a0-1a2e-4a89-8a11-8f1779f8591d@default> <87374qb21u.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <0f47b7da-82d7-4521-aaf6-f2430876ccc2@default> <87h8t59zxg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> From: Allen Li Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 23:58:18 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [O] bug#28263: 24.5; Org: `C-c LETTER' keys To: Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28263-done Cc: 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org, Nicolas Goaziou X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 06 02:59:31 2017 Received: (at 28263-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Dec 2017 07:59:32 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48489 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMUc7-0007ia-Lt for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 02:59:31 -0500 Received: from mail-qt0-f182.google.com ([209.85.216.182]:44225) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMUc5-0007iN-Rh for 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 02:59:30 -0500 Received: by mail-qt0-f182.google.com with SMTP id m59so6902214qte.11 for <28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 23:59:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=S6UL1CmywyOCiuNzoJPe7GqvEDagk6Rb2uwrK+k9IYc=; b=YgTpTKpdmtVXgSWs+cvhdt0teYyqwojdOs7TmcWFvdLNnhTxV+KhKMiyOlBvqF884D PAkdGfpVoWdLxlLx6dYBSpy/TID4WbNWmVGtlsiWmIh2ihjcYLropn+TeHLjMRPgfqHI CF6hM9vQiXqepuV8xB7dP16cQvsksM/7hUoQo9rV3EoOvQsEmjKG7zjQ37QeSGtwGICa sssMF6vyFZeqWCI55nJCBhDqEnVasF/Y2HGLILMJoDpL6uzDyqvqlkl/otv29Kky8Xvz AopoBhvAa60pFhOzTbIXhQxhhYkB7u0G7+7YsB85Wc08ZbrR+KBfZGsU9T0pXMycY79S 9tmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=S6UL1CmywyOCiuNzoJPe7GqvEDagk6Rb2uwrK+k9IYc=; b=qi+uUb704/sHPZY/woB3OaqunZuJRZgoJ95+mdWYZtEta6PUVv/h63Ha4TP2lh7n5P 2OX7aPyzEmFNuB5W59Pkc3A/+gzqGf1g9FHmSMA5SiIi15dxmWdRgT/XZ+b6FGXFRm5A LtlIJSiaUB5xHGsD9qRTxLOYk9KIBUCaKlCAV4+M5xYNuY3xlFxHstmUeviFZaHnv9Tl GdeW7ggUpXO3s0kbHrGryLJNi/indOsWzvqEj6Nq3ghyJJKS8oJt2BBOouBK6tc42QR1 Pbv9bMyUhgpxvrHNS5CiD+WdncO1IW/SEZCLxy77ubxg0wJuiBlRNSvt5MSZ8NxVP00u q+RA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mJda8Qtuzg28VavO6IOTzh3ZEkTPw3vZCC91gMNu4qGDfUUj8T+ 9vKwyEBwY1IoiWIvwfXqrL6Os7Ojj5Hdy890OQc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMablVtsJKQCTFzejFhA5LMsTU0b8mHcAaap4xf6Kp42rNmlqpEm2uuM+rlKxp5Qffunlv7OzoNV1wKvtzSBCxM= X-Received: by 10.55.112.6 with SMTP id l6mr14091282qkc.329.1512547164371; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 23:59:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.55.36 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 23:59:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <936768a0-1a2e-4a89-8a11-8f1779f8591d@default> <87374qb21u.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <0f47b7da-82d7-4521-aaf6-f2430876ccc2@default> <87h8t59zxg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> From: Allen Li Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 23:59:23 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [O] bug#28263: 24.5; Org: `C-c LETTER' keys To: Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28263-done Cc: 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org, Nicolas Goaziou X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 7:15 AM, Drew Adams wrote: > > That's even worse, IMHO. And hardly "as neutral as possible". > > > > Just one opinion. Could you summarize how you think the situation could be improved in one or two sentences? I think what you are trying to say is, Org mode should make global key bindings for some commands. However, this is problematic because there are pretty much no global keys available that are not reserved for major modes, minor modes, or the user, and at any rate I don=E2=80=99t think we could justify binding global keys by default since Org mode is a pretty small application within Emacs. calendar.el does not have a global key. remember.el does not have a global key. et cetera. Org mode is no different. If we make an Org minor mode, that=E2=80=99s really no better than the user just binding his own keys vs turning on the minor mode. Also, the reserved minor mode keys are not very good (hard to press), and they can conflict with other minor modes, which is probably undesirable for Org users. Is your complaint simply that we suggest a key for the user to bind? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 06 10:23:20 2017 Received: (at 28263-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Dec 2017 15:23:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49301 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMbXc-0005B3-1B for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 10:23:20 -0500 Received: from userp2120.oracle.com ([156.151.31.85]:42434) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMbXZ-0005AU-TP for 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 10:23:18 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id vB6FLeiP040032; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 15:23:11 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=KxwG8h3oqkjUzGAp6BNCdED593kdsXCp+0TuJ8O5UVY=; b=JVnzXhFu8o9aTNIvQF1nFezQAWV+GiMguzyia+jPhT22Do413s2yOdUZwLjlrsjyBLfj RZ2hJka0GRxXSAViiSvKc8pUoJfUwrUOLbzevRQkYBo1EaNcra62+kd559SQ0/f5CBYi uGqX+V+z+krB9TsADMLeLRMXjgJrX9isHjCBujAIZPmSDtRoRSsY64BaCzeODXz2R9Mn lYadcq0eXPq/J8TQJMdUtr+C3+MDpNxQq4GIORFv1BFg01M5mj5sOoq6RRt+YiD1IjOL k94ChqWIc2F69FsphLG9HiXGr9fn6mXxlOODBeGXhExje1XMN9m/suYWFyxudghrw6ZB 8g== Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2epd12he3k-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 06 Dec 2017 15:23:11 +0000 Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vB6FNAPO017117 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 6 Dec 2017 15:23:11 GMT Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id vB6FN8RP032052; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 15:23:10 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 07:23:07 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Allen Li Subject: RE: [O] bug#28263: 24.5; Org: `C-c LETTER' keys References: <936768a0-1a2e-4a89-8a11-8f1779f8591d@default> <87374qb21u.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <0f47b7da-82d7-4521-aaf6-f2430876ccc2@default> <87h8t59zxg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4615.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8736 signatures=668641 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1709140000 definitions=main-1712060225 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28263-done Cc: 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org, Nicolas Goaziou X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > Could you summarize how you think the situation could be improved in > one or two sentences? >=20 > I think what you are trying to say is, Org mode should make global > key bindings for some commands. No. I'm saying that Org should not suggest that users bind keys that are reserved for use by users to Org commands. And it should not then present those keys in the doc. And it should not say anything about the doc using those keys for illustrative purposes or assuming that users have bound those keys. Org should do _nothing_ with such reserved keys. It should not mention them at all in its doc. If Org wants to recommend or suggest that users bind some particular commands to keys, including to prefix keys, it can do that. But don't mention any particular keys (preferably), and certainly do not suggest using any particular keys. *IF* Org feels that certain commands should definitely be bound globally *THEN* (1) it should present that as a concrete proposal to emacs-devel for consideration and (2) if agreed on, Org should just bind those keys globally. That's Org's decision. I'm not in any way suggesting that Org should bind global keys. In fact, I hope it does not do so. But I can't decide what's best for everyone here. Maybe some global keys should be sacrificed for Org. I doubt it, but maybe Emacs Dev would decide that that's appropriate. What Org does now is, IMO, a shame-faced way of getting a bunch of keys bound globally for its purposes, without actually binding them. And what's more, the keys in question are keys that are always reserved for users. That's not right. > However, this is problematic because there are pretty much no global > keys available that are not reserved for major modes, minor modes, or > the user, Tough. We're all in that boat. (And anyway, it's not true in such absolute terms.) That's the whole point of reserving keys - to prevent things like Org from gobbling them all up. And nothing prevents Org from defining a minor mode that it intends all Org users to use all the time - in effect providing a whole new space for its "global" key bindings. (Not `org-mode', of course, if you want the keys available even when Org mode is turned off.) > and at any rate I don=E2=80=99t think we could justify binding > global keys by default since Org mode is a pretty small application > within Emacs. calendar.el does not have a global key. remember.el > does not have a global key. et cetera. Org mode is no different. Exactly. Please follow their example: Don't suggest to users to bind keys reserved to them to Org commands. > If we make an Org minor mode, that=E2=80=99s really no better than the us= er > just binding his own keys vs turning on the minor mode. Defining such a minor mode is exactly the way to go, to get pretty much global behavior without locking in keys to the absolutely global `global-map'. Turning on a minor mode that binds keys in its keymap _is_ a bit like binding your own keys globally. The difference is that they are not bound globally. In both cases the user makes the choice. But in one case the user does not (and ALL users do not) sacrifice the global keys reserved for users. Turn the mode on to get its bindings. Turn it off to be rid of its bindings. That's the clean Emacs way to handle such things. Sneakily recommending to users that they bind keys reserved for users to Org commands is not right. It's not fair to users, most of all. And it's not fair to other modes and the rest of Emacs. You might say it's "orgocentric". > Also, the > reserved minor mode keys are not very good (hard to press), and they > can conflict with other minor modes, which is probably undesirable for > Org users. Tough. We all live with it. Emacs is not only for Org. And in any case, you can put any number of keys on a prefix key. And there are plenty of prefix keys that are not reserved for users. > Is your complaint simply that we suggest a key for the user to bind? See above. If you take the approach of suggesting a key to bind, it should not be a key that is reserved for users. This really shouldn't be hard to understand. Please see how other packages/modes deal with it. Yes, key sequences are a limited resource. For _all_ of us. For all of Emacs and for all users. If Org is just starting to realize this and play fair then it's about time. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 06 15:09:17 2017 Received: (at 28263-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Dec 2017 20:09:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49567 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMg0K-0005bY-Sh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 15:09:17 -0500 Received: from mail-qt0-f174.google.com ([209.85.216.174]:35723) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eMg0I-0005bL-W2 for 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 15:09:15 -0500 Received: by mail-qt0-f174.google.com with SMTP id u10so12060352qtg.2 for <28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 12:09:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=goNMgwJls5/fAAWoHHCqpRhc/V7i8yhnpqB8Ht11vsw=; b=OXQdO7BoygIeMzgew0wygRwoyT4GV/UZCg2A264+UlSfHUztJNVC0h4jIQCVwibTWm g246yB8mis6C514smVtbBSDe8SqZlPtseDosHWuaxDe0C8klzGxaYMBckxHVv7XRajF4 uUpBrPPiqcZSHyOmRX28vggLhnFaRjP+6QeC5zta9EISuclSQ/pqEGkgaqaFvRyILhBq WlSgwzt3hniBGBo4avcw3XUyN/V96pdk2oBfRkjjafI/kDvczwtYmGFrOpXtAlGbV6Vs MfG3eBbj1DPteP+1vJ5zZ/P9UG3rmez9EBlKHB2q3vEWEZ+I9+cg8GdrC5fwfCuHZNNo lSZw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=goNMgwJls5/fAAWoHHCqpRhc/V7i8yhnpqB8Ht11vsw=; b=Pn1Uqqj47PjQhyDIGkjjLU9q5Y6pOdNrb2C28GPqkwdqnG91GAq1fyH3r7Lw1wZu1G Ib8tQV45NlYTkowMvoYDG4YUKizY+gDmX7mNdIW8U7e4EBcQKfwtc46GK+IA6+vHNNuV njycyXkgZgvV294pnH7QTqD7W7/09ANjaAxZz4d3BF+w9OdMGR9XphV7H/cv1KEJkF49 eYyLxD6HrwnBc3XnNrmsoT2UHiXeCXar9zc7uWLncUQ1Tn5WEtCgjw05pnvzD5YA1zxT LTeGvrBJiD7FUQCQoIaz4WkiUKrXwkOPNdUPUAVjkw7fZA3CN5cDyjYbTcH0QiHO4hiQ IoCA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLLIwN1623Lsn+KMHlcryTWugVHZre9nk7uKyXDR6g0EnhUE0iz ZOG7PYdfNbvqqyXXv4iVvBB9lRb4AMg+wzmgy6g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYToTwwT+yXrR7iHJ2fdajhcMlwmYD1WzaA/N+2kaWVzA4VkxvGfEcVnEi850j3VblTwPVLQp9t1enCCBE2xKc= X-Received: by 10.237.61.238 with SMTP id j43mr5507606qtf.303.1512590949416; Wed, 06 Dec 2017 12:09:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.55.36 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 12:09:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <936768a0-1a2e-4a89-8a11-8f1779f8591d@default> <87374qb21u.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <0f47b7da-82d7-4521-aaf6-f2430876ccc2@default> <87h8t59zxg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> From: Allen Li Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 12:09:08 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [O] bug#28263: bug#28263: 24.5; Org: `C-c LETTER' keys To: Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28263-done Cc: 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org, Nicolas Goaziou X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 7:23 AM, Drew Adams wrote: > [paraphrased] Org should not suggest user reserved key bindings I agree with you in general. However, when I first started using Emacs for Org mode years ago, I found the documentation very helpful. Furthermore, I did not find the documentation misleading about the fact that these keys are not standard. For users that are not accustomed to Emacs, the ability to bind keys freely is paralyzing. I had no idea what keys would be okay or not okay to bind. This could be solved by instead linking to the Emacs key binding guidelines and pointing out ranges of keys or example keys that would be safe to bind. I interpret the current documentation as suggesting such example keys. For comparison, calendar.el et al do not suggest global key bindings for their commands. However, Org mode is different because it is one of Emacs=E2=80=99s "killer apps". It is something that a non-Emacs user wo= uld start using Emacs for. No one is going to switch to Emacs to use calendar.el, but there are many people that switch to Emacs to use Org mode. Therefore, there is a benefit in adding some tips for very new users. As a matter of practicality, I suspect many users are just blindly copying Emacs Lisp code from various guides online, so there is no good way to fight de facto standards from emerging. Projectile is a particularly blatant offender, a popular package that reserves the C-c p key for its minor mode. However, the Emacs documentation is quite clear about key binding rules. All built in libraries follow it, including Org mode. I do not interpret the Org documentation as implying otherwise. From unknown Wed Sep 10 09:37:44 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2018 12:24:05 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 18 17:25:42 2018 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Feb 2018 22:25:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50266 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1enXOw-0006Xk-HU for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:25:42 -0500 Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.195]:41314) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1enXOv-0006Xc-7y for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:25:41 -0500 Received: from saiph (0000430164eb0f91cc0fb2d7.ipv6.commingeshautdebit.fr [IPv6:2a03:a0a0:0:4301:64eb:f91:cc0f:b2d7]) (Authenticated sender: admin@nicolasgoaziou.fr) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5DEAEA80C4 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 23:25:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from ngz by saiph with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1enXOt-0005sj-IW for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 23:25:39 +0100 To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Nicolas Goaziou Subject: control message for bug #28263 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 23:25:39 +0100 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) unarchive 28263 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 18 19:27:02 2018 Received: (at 28263-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2018 00:27:02 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50317 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1enZIL-0002sF-Mr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 19:27:02 -0500 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:44664) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1enZIJ-0002ry-OG for 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2018 19:27:00 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w1J0Qr7c148193; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 00:26:53 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=ww6acRr4G7oU+mLi9GDImdjxCnPbvd38Kp2drrdeoQM=; b=ra7HtiGZuNURWwJL/ktW1rKsutkTsHw29LqnqFb2cFv7Y3Nf7znpc3d/23jTIZvRO05q hIzak5vw1ZegQdUOrQOO+ATiF0odZX2Ecyo6zg0jh+15F5COpX8mwFFS/96SgZ2v4RBJ UrXdECY8Rp17t2gz8iSIquGPJ6+YvsiFLDC31gZ79/sqOP2krmbu6JM3N/yyXK8qHZeO X+JmFuldyN6PfdGbv+E4LyOD04QqkElLBfxd6cheb5ESD9vr8+gQfE2/JMb5fwjdzEPu Lm/HrSXp0UoOGer6iZbRpRlpaRKyDpluRB2vSBWWIf3ToqfyH5Ozh5K5Ncs5Pddfcz9N fQ== Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2g7kxq00cs-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 19 Feb 2018 00:26:53 +0000 Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w1J0Qm2P010269 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Feb 2018 00:26:48 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w1J0Qk08001712; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 00:26:46 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 16:26:45 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Nicolas Goaziou Subject: RE: [O] bug#28263: 24.5; Org: `C-c LETTER' keys References: <936768a0-1a2e-4a89-8a11-8f1779f8591d@default> <87374qb21u.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <0f47b7da-82d7-4521-aaf6-f2430876ccc2@default> <87h8t59zxg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <871shilz7h.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> In-Reply-To: <871shilz7h.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4654.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8808 signatures=668674 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1802190004 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28263-done Cc: Allen Li , 28263-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > Drew Adams writes: >=20 > > No. I'm saying that Org should not suggest that > > users bind keys that are reserved for use by users > > to Org commands. > > > > And it should not then present those keys in the doc. > > > > And it should not say anything about the doc using > > those keys for illustrative purposes or assuming > > that users have bound those keys. > > > > Org should do _nothing_ with such reserved keys. > > It should not mention them at all in its doc. >=20 > This is your own interpretation of the two paragraphs in > the Elisp manual that treat about reserved keys, IMO. It's my opinion of what Org mode _should_ do. And it coincides with what other libraries do. And it fits what the manual suggests. Your opinion is apparently that Emacs (in the Org-mode doc) should recommend that users sacrifice those keys to Org. We disagree about that. You want Emacs to (1) tell users that these keys are reserved for them to bind, BUT also to (2) recommend that if they use Org mode (which most users probably do now) then they should bind them to Org commands. I don't want Emacs to do #2. #1 is good; #2 is bad, and it, in effect, undercuts #1. In my opinion no library should suggest that users sacrifice their reserved keys for that library. Users are free to do that, of course. But it's impolite, IMO, for a library to recommend that they do so. Users aren't stupid - they can figure out, if they end up using some commands often, that they might want to bind them to keys, including perhaps to their reserved keys. They don't need a library to pitch them that idea. And newbie users might well get the wrong idea that they really need to follow that suggestion or they could have a "bad experience". Libraries that are purely 3rd-party can of course do anything they like (not that they should, but they can). But I'd offer the same opinion for purely 3rd-party libraries: Don't recommend that users globally bind their reserved keys for your mode. Org mode is not only a 3rd-party library. It is now part of GNU Emacs. All the more reason to be nice to users. > Anyway, for the record, I modified Org manual (for Org 9.2) so it > doesn't assume anymore users followed advice and bound `C-c a', `C-c > l'... In fact, I removed every reference to user reserved keybindings, Very good. Thank you for doing the right thing there. > but one, in the following paragraphs: > > For a better experience, the three Org commands ~org-store-link~, > ~org-capture~ and ~org-agenda~ ought to be accessible anywhere in > Emacs, not just in Org buffers. To that effect, you need to bind > them > to globally available keys, like the ones reserved for users (see > [[info:elisp::Key%20Binding%20Conventions]]). Here are suggested > bindings, please modify the keys to your own liking. >=20 > #+begin_src emacs-lisp > (global-set-key "\C-cl" 'org-store-link) > (global-set-key "\C-ca" 'org-agenda) > (global-set-key "\C-cc" 'org-capture) > #+end_src Not good, IMHO. And there is _no need_ to mention those keys. It should be fine and enough to leave off the part about ", like the ones reserved ... #+end_src." That part's not needed for users to understand that if they want global behavior then they can bind global keys - which is the only message you need to get across about those commands. And, once again, those words shamefacedly suggest that users use those keys. Same problem. Again: > > Org should not suggest that users bind keys that > > are reserved for use by users to Org commands. Org is widely used. Recommending that users use those keys for Org is nearly tantamount to no longer reserving them for users. Not quite as bad as actually binding them to Org commands on their behalf (which would clearly contravene the guideline), but almost as bad. And totally unnecessary. > I dare to think this is a good enough advice to belong to the manual, > with enough safeguards to let users know what it entails. I also think > it is fair, because the manual doesn't talk about these bindings anymore > later on. I'm on record, at least, as disagreeing with that. One opinion. Anyway, thank you for no longer having the rest of the Org manual depend on the assumption that users have sacrificed those keys to Org. Perhaps someday someone else will finish the job by removing the manual's suggestion that they should make that sacrifice, "for a better experience". From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 19 04:24:23 2018 Received: (at 28263) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2018 09:24:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50604 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1enhgN-00084C-H2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 04:24:23 -0500 Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.195]:44733) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1enhgL-000843-6a for 28263@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 04:24:21 -0500 Received: from saiph (0000430164eb0f91cc0fb2d7.ipv6.commingeshautdebit.fr [IPv6:2a03:a0a0:0:4301:64eb:f91:cc0f:b2d7]) (Authenticated sender: admin@nicolasgoaziou.fr) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7E2C1A810F; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 10:24:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from ngz by saiph with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1enhgI-0001dO-I4; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 10:24:18 +0100 From: Nicolas Goaziou To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: [O] bug#28263: 24.5; Org: `C-c LETTER' keys In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 18 Feb 2018 16:26:45 -0800 (PST)") References: <936768a0-1a2e-4a89-8a11-8f1779f8591d@default> <87374qb21u.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <0f47b7da-82d7-4521-aaf6-f2430876ccc2@default> <87h8t59zxg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <871shilz7h.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (gnu/linux) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 10:24:18 +0100 Message-ID: <87fu5xl4cd.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28263 Cc: Allen Li , 28263@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Hello, Drew Adams writes: > It's my opinion of what Org mode _should_ do. That's what I meant. > And it coincides with what other libraries do. This doesn't prove the model is right. > And it fits what the manual suggests. Unfortunately, the manual suggests nothing. I think that's the main issue here. > Your opinion is apparently that Emacs (in the Org-mode > doc) should recommend that users sacrifice those keys > to Org. We disagree about that. Not at all. I want _Emacs_ (not the Elisp manual) to tell users about so-called user reserved keys and what are their benefits. Since this isn't the case, Org manual takes care of this. > You want Emacs to (1) tell users that these keys are > reserved for them to bind, BUT also to (2) recommend > that if they use Org mode (which most users probably > do now) then they should bind them to Org commands. Not at all. We recommend to bind globally available keys, but only give an example on what the binding should look like. We even invite users to modify them to their own liking. > Org mode is not only a 3rd-party library. It is > now part of GNU Emacs. All the more reason to be > nice to users. Note that we are really disagreeing about the definition of being nice to the users. I'm convinced we both want to be nice to them. > It should be fine and enough to leave off the part > about ", like the ones reserved ... #+end_src." > > That part's not needed for users to understand > that if they want global behavior then they can > bind global keys - which is the only message you > need to get across about those commands. I searched the Emacs manual about "global keys" (menu, concept index, regexp). I miserably failed. As a user, what can I do now? > Perhaps someday someone else will finish the job by > removing the manual's suggestion that they should > make that sacrifice, "for a better experience". I will happily remove the part you consider to be offending -- whereas I consider it to be helpful -- once we can point users towards appropriate information within the Emacs manual. Would you like to report a bug about it? Regards, -- Nicolas Goaziou 0x80A93738 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 19 11:22:08 2018 Received: (at 28263) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Feb 2018 16:22:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51493 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1enoCe-0003Qu-7h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:22:08 -0500 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:45476) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1enoCc-0003QP-JH for 28263@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:22:06 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w1JGCUI5146532; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:21:58 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2017-10-26; bh=Ig3DopgU8uOfbcT9TyWQEW97dAWVRfLFYe8ao1xNaF0=; b=r6DpZoyBb4h87X5McULZPFUsqZMbp4kbfc/YwKFDIiZgWPzsLEJSYlW0xzsVmAqEYqSh rcdPNGewUK8EcN/zp8xPi8sr/FgWPGPjaKPqYNwK8q2tvOxdHrrclcHFnadQCivwayy4 AdjCGdiadWmWYrVFCtnNuQ3ppxnI9mHlqHpaJYDa0vHrLqz3Epxl6r1UUPucxu1DKpSD ddkG23Am5Dx89KwtDXoX5J68Jvv3SzF/m01ht2L9+QDgS7rArwDhygQUiUOzqQKzA3QJ 1cbj5boYcU8m8N/7h4c33Zm/S8J0VU7f3pV6emadnTLm002m5QIUuGi7jCMlT0jerzST rw== Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2g81e5050v-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:21:58 +0000 Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w1JGLuVb012512 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:21:56 GMT Received: from abhmp0005.oracle.com (abhmp0005.oracle.com [141.146.116.11]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w1JGLulU032273; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:21:56 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:21:56 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams To: Nicolas Goaziou Subject: RE: [O] bug#28263: 24.5; Org: `C-c LETTER' keys References: <936768a0-1a2e-4a89-8a11-8f1779f8591d@default> <87374qb21u.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <0f47b7da-82d7-4521-aaf6-f2430876ccc2@default> <87h8t59zxg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <871shilz7h.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87fu5xl4cd.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> In-Reply-To: <87fu5xl4cd.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4654.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8808 signatures=668674 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=530 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1802190201 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28263 Cc: Allen Li , 28263@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) > I will happily remove the part you consider to be offending Great. > once we can point users towards appropriate information > within the Emacs manual. Would you like to report a bug > about it? OK. I filed bug #30530. Please feel free to chime in there, if your idea of what needs to be done differs from what I requested. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Feb 19 19:38:57 2018 Received: (at 28263) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2018 00:38:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51870 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1envxQ-0000zW-Lq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 19:38:57 -0500 Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.195]:45218) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1envxN-0000zK-Ky for 28263@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2018 19:38:54 -0500 Received: from saiph (0000430164eb0f91cc0fb2d7.ipv6.commingeshautdebit.fr [IPv6:2a03:a0a0:0:4301:64eb:f91:cc0f:b2d7]) (Authenticated sender: admin@nicolasgoaziou.fr) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EAB2AA80D2; Tue, 20 Feb 2018 01:38:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from ngz by saiph with local (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1envxL-0002qr-77; Tue, 20 Feb 2018 01:38:51 +0100 From: Nicolas Goaziou To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#28263: bug#28263: 24.5; Org: `C-c LETTER' keys In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:21:56 -0800 (PST)") References: <936768a0-1a2e-4a89-8a11-8f1779f8591d@default> <87374qb21u.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <0f47b7da-82d7-4521-aaf6-f2430876ccc2@default> <87h8t59zxg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <871shilz7h.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87fu5xl4cd.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (gnu/linux) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 01:38:51 +0100 Message-ID: <87vaesjy04.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 28263 Cc: Allen Li , 28263@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Drew Adams writes: > OK. I filed bug #30530. Please feel free to chime in > there, if your idea of what needs to be done differs > from what I requested. I fully agree with your report. Thank you. From unknown Wed Sep 10 09:37:44 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 11:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator