From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 01 05:59:23 2017 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jul 2017 09:59:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46911 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRFBT-0002CZ-Cr for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 05:59:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:52878) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRFBR-0002CJ-Fe for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 05:59:21 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRFBK-0007y3-P3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 05:59:16 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FREEMAIL_FROM, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:50815) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRFBK-0007xl-M7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 05:59:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43835) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRFBI-00074q-RF for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 05:59:14 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRFBH-0007qE-7f for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 05:59:12 -0400 Received: from mail-vk0-x233.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400c:c05::233]:33721) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRFBH-0007m1-1i for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 05:59:11 -0400 Received: by mail-vk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id r126so77512027vkg.0 for ; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 02:59:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hfuw7C5fOF/MCErAUlrKmWnnUGdh4FIihYooESLdk+Y=; b=WSpcAsdKvCMhxFGO71LbBAgyzkL0wd90QRd6MqsCXmqBUTvRagbvG2t5HIFPp+UCOW BTyt8NfniukGrGxf9Z9Aov0lIfaDHWdDVc0HbuNQsLhOduo7Tafi9lBlep+qFG0l11P/ wLnjOTGB5xyz08SiI0vquAmn3anDULj0IIyk/D8pBZcvmAuba0rbvgSjRslaIVd/YHa/ bsnVeqqqnjuAx0/fchQyuo0CUF844KMPZpfMN/TlRncZ373EmK/pQYBSzAtbzRB5P6g5 aW12qGgfRemXPMV1vLeXHYkeiWOtSOcTX0erwpt+jqArtTFFDbSmOaKb1dyTNzlp+rCQ fK+A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hfuw7C5fOF/MCErAUlrKmWnnUGdh4FIihYooESLdk+Y=; b=WZFr0QAEXyHltQhHVcuDea9RDvSzmvbJPjI0dMlcJG8HsQyhk8NKkVx8xhdmj4vPVB WKg+xuBpmjoygJ+w1qf+1q0iktpuzUxKvniSTmBcx2bl2wxC68GQiW1QEGB9S0wRe1Kt ypTzX+muRM69vspbRMQ8gl3FV9IaDogWE/YX+eIsLOOql7QA7laEVZf2Bjj8OWGIxgjy P1dYErzyvXA7fJZdp+mo2Z/ib3vudSMwee+mQDiBD4ciSHw2GpnJ1R86BZlrgFnhUkbY ENN2uSxXHE6g1BcTCXZoD4vIMMG9YiSiNRrxyl8ycNnvVa23EwK9i69IcnuVNgR8DFN/ yvAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOx74s7R7shhKCtkkWxLfWgJpRD+8//QUrT47kB2TM/NemPDewCw TEjM0a1/dNaWwlqJ3xr1jCbVWPguwh3dbd4= X-Received: by 10.31.138.135 with SMTP id m129mr13150123vkd.84.1498903148603; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 02:59:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.176.70.85 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Jul 2017 02:58:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Itai Berli Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 12:58:28 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -6.8 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -6.8 (------) Emacs supports 12 Unicode bidirectional marks (ALM, RLM, LRM, LRE, RLE, LRO, RLO, PDF, FSI, LRI, RLI, and PDI), each of which displays as a very thin space. This raises two problems. 1. On the one hand, the fact that these inherently invisible marks manifest, by default, as thin spaces undermines attempts at precise alignment and positioning. Moreover, in the case of LRM, RLM and ALM, this behavior contradicts explicit directions given in the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm 8.0.0 specifications (section 2.6 Implicit Directional Marks): > they do not appear in the display (To my understanding, this is meant to apply to all bidi marks, even if only stated explicitly for LRM, RLM and ALM.) 2. On the other hand, the fact that these spaces are so thin as to be barely noticeable, and the fact that they are indistinguishable from one another makes it difficult to debug and resolve strange and/or erroneous behavior that can happen in a bidi document, an example of which is given below. The solution to both problems is to make the bidi marks visible in `whitespace` mode only, and to give them glyphs that are (a) easy to notice, (b) distinguishable from other whitespace visualization glyphs, (c) distinct from one another. The following example exhibits strange behavior that can arise due to the use of bidi marks. This behavior is difficult to debug without visualizing the bidi marks. Consider the following paragraph. ILLUSTRATION #1: An English sentence that is formatted from right to left. http://imgur.com/is1OBtM The paragraph is entirely in English, then why is it formatted from right to left? Without visible bidi marks, it's hard to tell; however a savvy Unicode-aware person would realize that this must indicate the presence of a Right-To-Left Mark (U+200F). Therefore, if we position the cursor at the beginning of the paragraph (`C-a`), and delete the following character (`C-d`), the sentence should display normally. ILLUSTRATION #2: Deleting the first Right-To-Left mark at the beginning of the paragraph has no effect. http://imgur.com/eBVpdZA Against our expectations, nothing appears to have changed. There must be another Right-To-Left mark at the beginning of the paragraph. Let's delete it as well. (`C-d`) ILLUSTRATION #3: Deleting the second Right-To-Left Mark left-aligns the paragraph, but leave the comma misplaced. http://imgur.com/Klj3lZC The paragraph is now aligned to the left, as it should, and everything looks normal, except for the comma, which appears in the beginning of the paragraph. But this can be easily remedied: let's delete the comma and then retype it in its proper place. We position the cursor at the beginning of the paragraph (`C-a`) and delete the following character (`C-d`). ILLUSTRATION #4: After trying to delete the comma, the paragraph is finally displayed correctly. http://imgur.com/3w73MxM Instead of deleting the comma, this has shifted the comma to it's correct position. If we were able to visualize the whitespace, we would have realized from the beginning that the sequence of characters in this paragraph was, from left to right: RTL-RTL-RLO-RLO-H-e-l-l-o-PDO-,-PDO-SPACE-w-o-r-l-d-! Thus, our first three actions removed the first three characters, leaving us with: RLO-H-e-l-l-o-PDO-,-PDO-SPACE-w-o-r-l-d-! We now realize that even the final, correct form, is in fact littered with bidi errors and potential landmines! In GNU Emacs 25.1.1 (x86_64-apple-darwin13.4.0, NS appkit-1265.21 Version 10.9.5 (Build 13F1911)) of 2016-09-21 built on builder10-9.porkrind.org Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.1504 Configured using: 'configure --with-ns '--enable-locallisppath=/Library/Application Support/Emacs/${version}/site-lisp:/Library/Application Support/Emacs/site-lisp' --with-modules' Configured features: NOTIFY ACL GNUTLS LIBXML2 ZLIB TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS NS MODULES Important settings: value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8 locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix Major mode: TeX/P Minor modes in effect: diff-auto-refine-mode: t TeX-PDF-mode: t ivy-mode: t shell-dirtrack-mode: t projectile-mode: t helm-descbinds-mode: t async-bytecomp-package-mode: t tooltip-mode: t global-eldoc-mode: t electric-indent-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t tool-bar-mode: t menu-bar-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t blink-cursor-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t column-number-mode: t line-number-mode: t transient-mark-mode: t Recent messages: Applying style hooks... done Mark set C-> is undefined Mark set [2 times] Saving file /Users/itaiberli/Documents/GitHub/Thesis/test22.tex... Wrote /Users/itaiberli/Documents/GitHub/Thesis/test22.tex Undo! Auto-saving...done repeat-complex-command: There are no previous complex commands to repeat delete-backward-char: Text is read-only Load-path shadows: /Users/itaiberli/.emacs.d/elpa/seq-2.20/seq hides /Applications/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/emacs-lisp/seq Features: (shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message rfc822 mml mml-sec epg mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mail-utils vc-git diff-mode tex-bar toolbar-x font-latex plain-tex tex-buf latex tex-ispell tex-style tex crm tex-mode latexenc colir color counsel jka-compr esh-util etags xref project swiper reftex reftex-vars two-column ivy delsel ivy-overlay helm-projectile helm-files rx image-dired tramp tramp-compat tramp-loaddefs trampver shell pcomplete format-spec dired-x dired-aux ffap helm-tags helm-bookmark helm-adaptive helm-info bookmark pp helm-external helm-net browse-url xml url url-proxy url-privacy url-expand url-methods url-history url-cookie url-domsuf url-util url-parse auth-source gnus-util mm-util help-fns mail-prsvr password-cache url-vars mailcap helm-buffers helm-grep helm-regexp helm-utils helm-locate helm-help helm-types projectile grep compile comint ansi-color ring ibuf-ext ibuffer thingatpt helm-descbinds helm easy-mmode helm-source cl-seq eieio-compat eieio eieio-core helm-multi-match helm-lib dired helm-config helm-easymenu cl-macs async-bytecomp async advice edmacro kmacro finder-inf tex-site info package epg-config seq byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile cl-extra help-mode easymenu cconv cl-loaddefs pcase cl-lib time-date mule-util tooltip eldoc electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel ns-win ucs-normalize term/common-win tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list newcomment elisp-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core frame cl-generic cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese charscript case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev minibuffer cl-preloaded nadvice loaddefs button faces cus-face macroexp files text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote kqueue cocoa ns multi-tty make-network-process emacs) Memory information: ((conses 16 359730 16119) (symbols 48 34262 0) (miscs 40 100 221) (strings 32 65306 15883) (string-bytes 1 1997869) (vectors 16 60314) (vector-slots 8 1721804 214602) (floats 8 589 398) (intervals 56 269 0) (buffers 976 19)) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 01 06:36:47 2017 Received: (at 27544) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jul 2017 10:36:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46939 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRFlf-0003As-9q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 06:36:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:34457) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRFld-0003Af-ML for 27544@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 06:36:45 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRFlU-0005E2-Ga for 27544@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 06:36:40 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:55370) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRFlU-0005Dw-Cw; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 06:36:36 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2461 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dRFlT-00039b-Lp; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 06:36:36 -0400 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2017 13:36:24 +0300 Message-Id: <83r2y0php3.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Itai Berli In-reply-to: (message from Itai Berli on Sat, 1 Jul 2017 12:58:28 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.8 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 27544 Cc: 27544@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.8 (-------) > From: Itai Berli > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 12:58:28 +0300 > > Emacs supports 12 Unicode bidirectional marks (ALM, RLM, LRM, LRE, > RLE, LRO, RLO, PDF, FSI, LRI, RLI, and PDI), each of which displays as > a very thin space. This raises two problems. > > 1. On the one hand, the fact that these inherently invisible > marks manifest, by default, as thin spaces undermines attempts at > precise alignment and positioning. Moreover, in the case of LRM, RLM > and ALM, this behavior contradicts explicit directions given in the > Unicode > Bidirectional Algorithm 8.0.0 specifications (section 2.6 Implicit > Directional Marks): > > they do not appear in the display > (To my understanding, this is meant to apply to all bidi marks, even > if only stated explicitly for LRM, RLM and ALM.) > > 2. On the other hand, the fact that these spaces are so thin as to be > barely noticeable, and the fact that > they are indistinguishable from one another makes it difficult to debug > and resolve strange and/or erroneous behavior that can happen in a > bidi document, an example of which is given below. The above is the default way these control characters are displayed. This default was chosen so as to, on the one hand avoid making them entirely invisible, as doing that was deemed un-Emacsy, and OTOH make them barely visible, so that they won't disrupt the legibility of the displayed text. However, Emacs being Emacs, this is just the default, and it can be changed. The visual appearance of these (and other similar) characters can be customized via the variable 'glyphless-char-display-control', which is described in the Emacs manual, and in more detail in the ELisp manual. > The solution to both problems is to make the bidi marks visible in > `whitespace` mode only, and to give them glyphs that are (a) easy to > notice, (b) distinguishable from other whitespace visualization glyphs, (c) > distinct from one another. You can do that using 'glyphless-char-display-control'. If that is somehow not enough, you could also define a display-table entry for these characters, specifically for whitespace-mode. Patches to that effect are welcome (I think this should be a user option, if we want such a feature). > If we were able to visualize the whitespace, we would have realized from > the beginning that the sequence of characters in this paragraph was, from > left to right: > > RTL-RTL-RLO-RLO-H-e-l-l-o-PDO-,-PDO-SPACE-w-o-r-l-d-! > > Thus, our first three actions removed the first three characters, leaving us > with: > > RLO-H-e-l-l-o-PDO-,-PDO-SPACE-w-o-r-l-d-! > > We now realize that even the final, correct form, is in fact littered > with bidi errors and potential landmines! Overriding the bidi attributes with the likes of RLO can indeed lead to confusing display. Emacs has functions that Lisp applications can use to discover these confusing situations, where the application would like to warn users. See the description of bidi-find-overridden-directionality in the ELisp manual. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 01 07:49:09 2017 Received: (at 27544) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jul 2017 11:49:09 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46955 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRGth-0006iX-Dh for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 07:49:09 -0400 Received: from mail-vk0-f41.google.com ([209.85.213.41]:35398) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRGtf-0006iJ-PL for 27544@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 07:49:08 -0400 Received: by mail-vk0-f41.google.com with SMTP id 191so77531886vko.2 for <27544@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 04:49:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7pyTAhnfqY/6kcwGd8vaCnR0jLOYKSwOTc7yBir8+Cg=; b=lS23jXB4un07/JXgGOqevKks6eeESQsOi9FUHhMKgIdQJalrlazIVZZnS+A4n1UmQM nxp4IXXlntOqappJUSpiIUML7eqKNhyBUvZqF3db7x4FMiJDPw2LE/Taa516JcGRaWv4 tqIYaYDCfjd3gBd4sfOFke61TtWWaK6iEjmlAtdGwrR6d5CRDp2snt6n2LopEKRoKEew 4yJtHfBcSrcHtWOmR+bXy5s+B5SIki0djkNOUNTydY5y4XvdKdBK5J8wm6iDXS1Aq9Cs OOvH13pqmBztaiDMbHS/cQ4Ik3w64dIq4TLC6OQRrH7ze+a9VGemPoOt9uHvZGs0EDiw AnaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7pyTAhnfqY/6kcwGd8vaCnR0jLOYKSwOTc7yBir8+Cg=; b=IUKZX5NmZULNUVYzYS5KkyqFZzw49YX1NMY/7r+39iBKG+AbLKgc5+aBTgVAoa6SzA gOGgtobSwvwVaHw5DsQemA/Z6bTabDUu/CtanCc8KzBQSfwPWLi5fv7rwudA7+PKtibm LvPt0TIU9z0qApge3Xc2WOQ0GjGF0POVeblVji6ODtU93ykCb/XcbBeAgT4ofy3AVNVq J9uFwvSj/GWW8xRsI95hx+Vv5Kq+FITXXKiylNRrpJcLesuCpbY41UOJTmNLOBFB9Kju Z44QTsOAa3WWiBJfo5xa7zNN2zB+h2L/tfJeAgWIw8wruca+CIm4iemWvma75DVM4GrA 0Mmw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOzDfV0LGUgrN2Uy9joEbgmy8GKyaMWBjD0RlhVCFaonDpqDnD49 jv+gOB46QOZqQBGn3MImG91uKDtkXJICPZA= X-Received: by 10.31.108.7 with SMTP id h7mr14392662vkc.114.1498909741730; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 04:49:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.176.70.85 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Jul 2017 04:48:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Itai Berli Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 14:48:21 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks To: 27544@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 27544 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) A default should be something that aligns with the expectations of a casual user; you cannot expect a casual user to start writing elisp code or tinkering with `glyphless-char-display-control`. And how can we know what a casual user would expect? 1. We can follow established standards, particularly if we claim to conform to them, as Emacs does to the Unicode standard. The Unicode bidi algorithm 8.0.0 specifications state the following about LRM, RLM and ALM (section 2.6 Implicit Directional Marks): > they do not display or have any other semantic effect and again, in the same section: > they do not appear in the display 2. We can see how other text editors behave. The following is a sample of text editors that are bidi-aware, and none of them displays explicit bidi marks (they only support RLM and LRM), not even as a very thing space: Gmail, Google Docs, Libre Writer, MS-Word, Pages, and TextEdit. By the way, the Unicode bidi algorithm was written by three editors, two of whom work for Google, and the other one - for Microsoft, so seeing how Google docs and MS-Word implement bidirectionally is a good way of seeing how the standard should be implemented. 3. We can employ common sense. Either the Emacs user will notice the spaces introduced by the bidi marks, or he won't. If he does, then it will be visually annoying for him, and will thwart attempts to realign and position the text precisely. If he doesn't notice the spaces, then he won't understand, for instance, why he needs to press the left arrow four times to position the cursor past the first visible character of a paragraph that begins with three bidi marks. In both cases, he won't be able to see the difference between the various marks, which is a cause for confusion, frustration, and errors. 4. We can see how Emacs implements similar constructs. The bidi marks are control sequences that can be inserted into the editor using `C-x 8 RET `. Let's see how other control sequences are handled by this mechanism. If you try to insert, say, the characters Null character (U+0000), Bell character (U+0007) and Escape character (U+001B) using this method, we'll get: ILLUSTRATION: The characters Null character (U+0000), Bell character (U+0007) and Escape character (U+001B), in this order. http://imgur.com/bsJoblk We see that the output satisfies the three condition I specified in my original post: (a) Easy to notice, (b) Distinguishable from other whitespace visualization glyphs, (c) Distinct from one another. However, in light of to this example I should state that, in my opinion, unlike other control characters, Emacs should not display the bidi marks unless in `whitespace` mode. The difference is that control characters are rarely used by casual writers of alphabetic text, whereas explicit bidirectional marks are quite commonly used. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 01 08:17:12 2017 Received: (at 27544) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jul 2017 12:17:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46974 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRHKq-0007N1-H2 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 08:17:12 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:47152) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRHKp-0007Mn-04 for 27544@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 08:17:11 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRHKg-0004c8-GX for 27544@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 08:17:05 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:56203) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRHKg-0004c4-Cs; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 08:17:02 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2502 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dRHKf-0000bo-P1; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 08:17:02 -0400 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2017 15:16:51 +0300 Message-Id: <83o9t4pd1o.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Itai Berli In-reply-to: (message from Itai Berli on Sat, 1 Jul 2017 14:48:21 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.8 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 27544 Cc: 27544@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.8 (-------) > From: Itai Berli > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 14:48:21 +0300 > > A default should be something that aligns with the expectations of a > casual user; you cannot expect a casual user to start writing elisp > code or tinkering with `glyphless-char-display-control`. > > And how can we know what a casual user would expect? Thank you for describing your expectations. However, to change the defaults, we'd need to hear from more than one user. If we find that the majority thinks the default should be changed, we will eventually do that, as we do with any other default. > 1. We can follow established standards, particularly if we claim to > conform to them, as Emacs does to the Unicode standard. The Unicode > bidi algorithm 8.0.0 specifications state the following about LRM, RLM > and ALM (section 2.6 Implicit Directional Marks): > > they do not display or have any other semantic effect > and again, in the same section: > > they do not appear in the display The UBA also allows to retain these characters, including display them, see section 5.2 there. This is how Emacs behaves, again in line with general Emacs feature of allowing users to see what's in the buffer. > 4. We can see how Emacs implements similar constructs. The bidi marks > are control sequences that can be inserted into the editor using `C-x > 8 RET `. Let's see how other control sequences are > handled by this mechanism. If you try to insert, say, the characters > Null character (U+0000), Bell character (U+0007) and Escape character > (U+001B) using this method, we'll get: There are control characters other than those which you tried, for which Emacs does use the same display method as for bidi controls: try ZWJ (U+200D) or ARABIC NUMBER SIGN (U+0600) -- all the characters of Unicode General Category "Cf" that don't have an established graphic image are by default displayed as thin spaces. This is explained in the doc string of glyphless-char-display-control. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 01 08:37:27 2017 Received: (at 27544) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jul 2017 12:37:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46979 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRHeR-0007ow-9r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 08:37:27 -0400 Received: from mail-ua0-f180.google.com ([209.85.217.180]:34929) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRHeP-0007oi-Ow for 27544@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 08:37:26 -0400 Received: by mail-ua0-f180.google.com with SMTP id j53so88978813uaa.2 for <27544@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 05:37:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=4gD0COKV+LWHkmS/bb5MzY/fLpOvkv91+fz2CnA/4DI=; b=bZw9NXAbhnRb3CxxYY+ItqbK+dnpKp5DXow4pn//Rs11rLFKaz4ezAM82FkIPnMNmP CJogssRJ+fZHPZ3OEGWe2tAXajr6SUvGntF31kKmZJwl2dZ9l26Ygj0eTQYGIcTY25iV KXGn6Da13EN1qhYn7U7bpDS15YIcMsnY7Izo7ayTznpLCVyY+Z40ViBqnzxu0Db+9wup jLn+7mmheugxsHAukevVaikDpZM9azGzEJa5lREEhvFcHTcJvUitISEjAqufCMZYtGQE 2OfYJYPwOMa/f6lLYrfd2RTrhqg1wUHjSI785kIyHSTVAWCq3f/nx1blB4NV2jBNnDUv M48Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=4gD0COKV+LWHkmS/bb5MzY/fLpOvkv91+fz2CnA/4DI=; b=r6tcQeXJ2RR7Mh0Sf3HAD8F3BHbfVw2p18kX699DcDh18dGzLOKDNo0VUq971zh++S OxVLlLZnqZX1yXqgM8qmWujCVuUG8uURN7HaAptipJmpIRO4HGM2fMl1PoiphdoAcdVU tBBzk55JiWFfjoSHdavlUyaWaBJ7XHgEC1lTgpJeMiveUMWYSvbK5/dcS6XKuGCEWFrb 4uNSV28aI4JMBGPcaqzF/X6knOStF0YgJ3ZL1jt9CiemXFYicEsDtfigncrpTJnEv5rz l98Gs5qSJDxG6gY8sRylUTd5eBclcCCL29iR4SD6UHebtshbCw3R9nfz1YO+gqoyd3Do PQOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOwTVwqGwEmy8xKbaQTQOtz0sdHrTxdS4euJLBj8pJhNfZt0eQka ka8GP+sBOd1zCJWsObbasd2qEsZjfR5WOWE= X-Received: by 10.159.32.3 with SMTP id 3mr3731365uam.67.1498912640037; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 05:37:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.176.70.85 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Jul 2017 05:36:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Itai Berli Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 15:36:39 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks To: 27544@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 27544 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) > This is how Emacs behaves, again in line with general Emacs feature of allowing users to see what's in the buffer. Except the current display doesn't allow the user to see what's in the buffer. > The UBA also allows to retain these characters, including display them, see section 5.2 there. Well, section 5.2 of the UBA explains: > retention of these formatting characters and BNs is important to users who need to display a graphic representation of hidden characters, and who thus need to obtain their visual positions for display. Emacs users who need to display a graphic representation of the bidi marks are ill-served by the current implementation. And so are those who don't need to display a graphic representation of them. The current implementation is the worse of both worlds. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 01 08:51:44 2017 Received: (at 27544) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jul 2017 12:51:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46993 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRHsF-0001WN-Vz for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 08:51:44 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:51829) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dRHsE-0001WA-C6 for 27544@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 08:51:42 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRHs4-0002Ry-Aa for 27544@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 08:51:37 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:56403) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dRHs4-0002Rs-6X; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 08:51:32 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2515 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dRHs3-00082G-Oi; Sat, 01 Jul 2017 08:51:31 -0400 Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2017 15:51:21 +0300 Message-Id: <83mv8opbg6.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Itai Berli In-reply-to: (message from Itai Berli on Sat, 1 Jul 2017 15:36:39 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks References: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -7.8 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 27544 Cc: 27544@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.8 (-------) > From: Itai Berli > Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 15:36:39 +0300 > > > This is how Emacs behaves, again in line with general Emacs feature of allowing users to see what's in the buffer. > > Except the current display doesn't allow the user to see what's in the buffer. I think it does: it shows the bidi controls instead of completely hiding them. > > The UBA also allows to retain these characters, including display > them, see section 5.2 there. > > Well, section 5.2 of the UBA explains: > > > retention of these formatting characters and BNs is important to users who need to display a graphic representation of hidden characters, and who thus need to obtain their visual positions for display. > > Emacs users who need to display a graphic representation of the bidi > marks are ill-served by the current implementation. And so are those > who don't need to display a graphic representation of them. The > current implementation is the worse of both worlds. Well, I obviously disagree. In any case, Emacs provides customizations to change the display of these controls to your liking, and modes which have such needs can do that in the buffers under the mode. the Emacs implementation allows all that. If we hear enough report from people who would like the defaults to change, we could consider that in the future. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 30 23:55:34 2021 Received: (at 27544) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Dec 2021 04:55:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43000 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1msHeY-0000Op-Mb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 23:55:34 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:49010) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1msHeW-0000OY-4h for 27544@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 23:55:32 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=pHHrK/27Zl2UntHYil7L+WbTRxBaMSW7mWbhkAheRfs=; b=XzQ1ENSdHX7uQTB8zugmbpFHMf xVT1X/Gmnwuh372+7GAnpquQBASYSerAjh1Mi3zcc8OXgb6pVUZTYs5/zSfBN7WEVtBpPKj6avUDr 67a3XPc92s/hbZngthziGMY/hGouNl6ZXlvFB1Wuy9m9Swgi7vz7YmzIZAwOiYZ3OLxc=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1msHeN-0004Fe-0a; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 05:55:25 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Itai Berli Subject: Re: bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks References: X-Now-Playing: Kid606's _Recollected Ambient Works Vol. 1: Bored of Excitement_: "G Minor" Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 05:55:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: (Itai Berli's message of "Sat, 1 Jul 2017 12:58:28 +0300") Message-ID: <87sfvcapqd.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Itai Berli writes: > Emacs supports 12 Unicode bidirectional marks (ALM, RLM, LRM, LRE, > RLE, LRO, RLO, PDF, FSI, LRI, RLI, and PDI), each of which displays as > a very thin space. This raises two problems. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 27544 Cc: 27544@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Itai Berli writes: > Emacs supports 12 Unicode bidirectional marks (ALM, RLM, LRM, LRE, > RLE, LRO, RLO, PDF, FSI, LRI, RLI, and PDI), each of which displays as > a very thin space. This raises two problems. Perhaps there should be a minor mode to display these characters more clearly, because they can be pretty confusing to deal with. What would be the best way to implement such a mode? Change `glyphless-char-display' buffer-locally? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 01 02:49:04 2021 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Dec 2021 07:49:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43160 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1msKMS-00076Q-Gk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 02:49:04 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:44104) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1msKMR-00076I-1S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 02:49:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39214) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msKMQ-0000wu-GQ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 02:49:02 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=39312 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msKMQ-0004Gz-4g; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 02:49:02 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:To:From: Date; bh=cYlbRkN95HJuULSLXbQG0dM9sQbuE9xRwhMT4sssD+0=; b=H9rhYVZz7URffKhV6pBK OkKA+GTfUBOdwU2B4AiEGdBs/PdqJeAl/YNI3XWyCgYkAbt6684tppz1FLem+Mquo0fvE6EUriGjD ZS38AsNBe4nSBfHb+siJhL/8W9OsHxEBAePNE/D864iW7Pm07yNo5jRbklx478Y3P9aCu0twCPA99 2+9ilxjs1+vVti7pjaS6XsLwHg8pgq49ogztcs4+N/q8ub75RcWGyF70fjy+YZok00/Lw50W2TKeZ nljQtofHdmSfAv94PKIgWfAFQHqUWacBXhCG6xvBMVNTnnnkW9T1cRcGvClFyJyh1XQHDtnAojwfZ X3iS8KfRkEg3Ww==; Received: from [2a02:14f:1f9:744::b2c:4ad1] (port=50836 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msKMP-0001Ng-LR; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 02:49:02 -0500 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 09:48:58 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen , Itai Berli Subject: Re: bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <87sfvcapqd.fsf@gnus.org> References: <87sfvcapqd.fsf@gnus.org> Message-ID: <2C04D747-6772-4283-8455-39FEE767F61F@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Autocrypt: addr=eliz@gnu.org; keydata= mQENBF+pf4UBCAC6vjkWLSAsQpe8YIGKLQzNOJx/IjGtCdFF8uzmO5jmME+SD8ROuJN+t5KXVw58 uzu75EFD0vHTY9e+udJ2gkpuy0NnzkFcbumdLLo2ERKCoSctZZRhzKXI5z5cHxCqW0B2ygHRrRLt oNlGID7bAgcgSViT1ptGqTXO7zGVu4Airok7dNzcPtHgns8GlR5YAFX0TvE6oGd0l2VPghNeVJKJ OjrbfhoDxl3ucFpqbqMH8z9HTLDOFpz8UaYYUdJMi3xX6vwTZxI2sM2RRVLUpZyllAkSMI4lln1O OgazM/62DJUs/rKIHKBnF6h3/qsJUjUYXaAHbrXY26mWllAd536lABEBAAG0I0VsaSBaYXJldHNr aWkgKGVsaXopIDxlbGl6QGdudS5vcmc+iQE4BBMBAgAiBQJfqX+FAhsDBgsJCAcDAgYVCAIJCgsE FgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRCRwSYvAeuNOYUQB/4/iIKKOG45ijNaRoTvmJJZMvj1S07WQxEm7c5SHEeE QbLOAxB9vESOV7sLueuN3oqEndtzyYt4x1WTSBmHFF7h5fcCMjBs41siOIp5Sj/xD0Bvaa0IKGCR SZ7PAo8Mq3wgajXpTpn9vxE2PmtzA8KdEE0K1+f9pVAfOpUIcCl44rIxLUW352XG0y7iz6c/O6LB 1deOKMiKFctKO7pBti1dJEm1ImewLH3H8uTbwspLOs3EB8xhsESxmTidnze68HX2jt+2EeMgCdki NU+LWbexQZPfIS7+ZmE06ll0v6+Jy7ZdTkCCRypKWTnW7pIFsq/p4kybV8O/kHSV6B4vvQBfuQEN BF+pf4UBCACvFrdx/m22lgObypSmSS4TNlNvQnMUorrMmp0U32hv5adt6CKXeMjk05F+GcIfVMrp xqMBn4sEUIXWhhogQJa9ZbWEP/HbS8XjMMbz0Q0Siaty9+DSspK/9u2GWKsz3uQzLCexIJtzmXvj AVmvoMCAU/F2t038ggygjYLRgyLRNLgbbartu2dMkvrfxRjheip60S4S3utOcwUf/qdoa1grNann CFluHr/ftXCeeuGB4H8iO0BXWNby6NZPizxJttx9gdcH8/OmDOJkXyRMTT/3sSem76CSOjfXcz7s aJlg680NQhG5TmuYERjJD4+U02K5RuqTsEnOuWeFy4p+/mslABEBAAGJATYEGAECAAkFAl+pf4UC GwwAIQkQkcEmLwHrjTkWIQTmyQKcNjrUHXh6jruRwSYvAeuNOejsB/9rVegsfEBSRLjeeYXyJrOf dme7BYpYsQCw2vGTnrJTGFQ9HM2zT9+wAENBHWjQPJOptJwo5w4xIbZgwJy0uIN3sV18xbCRSxX0 ZSk8GJG0PrQTCaf2xs0kqsShnkvqyo5QSyUlFUAG7m1o7NUhF95Q89oxGO8JyvR356kqNbzUn0Cq PxKyS42QfC8dyFNgVhVPbZp6aONnUwY5SbtCLJtZCBgvppI9XaBH41BDukSE4GgSLoYsSIGShg4h e+bGypAsGtQ9uwmryUi1gRrDgca3wFo/G0rbJn2ZKoLbGFZivWPVgAgd9/O5sLSPFznOdcRGxEA2 gk7A1ReaJ10PtQz0 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: 27544@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On December 1, 2021 6:55:22 AM GMT+02:00, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Itai Berli writes: >=20 > > Emacs supports 12 Unicode bidirectional marks (ALM, RLM, LRM, LRE, > > RLE, LRO, RLO, PDF, FSI, LRI, RLI, and PDI), each of which displays as > > a very thin space=2E This raises two problems=2E >=20 > Perhaps there should be a minor mode to display these characters more > clearly, because they can be pretty confusing to deal with=2E >=20 > What would be the best way to implement such a mode? Change > `glyphless-char-display' buffer-locally? 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Wed, 1 Dec 2021 15:51:47 +0000 From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii , "27544@debbugs.gnu.org" <27544@debbugs.gnu.org>, "larsi@gnus.org" , "itai.berli@gmail.com" Subject: RE: [External] : bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks Thread-Index: AQHX5ogTr/Uve/C5bkOXrlsSZ2F9uawdxzrg Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 15:51:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87sfvcapqd.fsf@gnus.org> <2C04D747-6772-4283-8455-39FEE767F61F@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <2C04D747-6772-4283-8455-39FEE767F61F@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: eea6c46b-bf7d-4d8b-49f3-08d9b4e27b54 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5565: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1msRvR-0000O0-VD; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 16:53:45 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks References: <87sfvcapqd.fsf@gnus.org> <2C04D747-6772-4283-8455-39FEE767F61F@gnu.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEW5uLhbWVmAf34i ISD////vkLw8AAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+UMAQ8HLm/adsAAAAG1SURBVDjLdZSLkesw CEVZvQaMaABwA4vpv7e9oNhRZvI040ThCC4fK0TsrkSDao1+7HB8q8il9CwlIzmyDgCY+8v+w8Mm M2PLLNOmL6fBrBYcc1wAMfn2cObDJSLjAMDawBwS4jwJ53newOBPZ/IlAKfEDYZxpo4MYYTCp9sS b3CRpCvSNjjwAm4scEEsdWTOE6G7+gXmT/IxSg+5QB92bABi4FFieYFaDVINhFYkfHLUF+x5TeAF TMqEImApn2ywFg7KcvgAdYwzZANW2m2GYn4A49tYz3WDTnI7Gd5xkwJgj43UmlCa3WmVoefWIKAx FQElwHA6VpmUAF5KZ7RXscobALXTGGboQGCssVIhiayRu3q1TvKusiYYDbRGIfwGiDyr6XBIl6ck SoFWPu16t0TuokqWY/OoWaqOfwfktZUWqLQxWKsyMJD5AOZSrT50j3nz6DeDRTrPN1j7Or73uIFI x8jJO6EVITvhD49VWZZU7IiePNClt0oI5dcV9h9w+VeAK0rfwGWG27L04tziX1xX8lzZ2i6sBXgH v70f/Wez+vwK9Vvvcbz+Vx6ATf3GfcZl1j++RZlXQCgnCwAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAy MS0xMi0wMVQxNTowNzo0NiswMDowMCFp3MgAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMTItMDFU MTU6MDc6NDYrMDA6MDBQNGR0AAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Matmos + Wobbly's _Rogue Pulse: Gravity Collapse (10)_: "Ekoplx" Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 16:53:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <2C04D747-6772-4283-8455-39FEE767F61F@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 01 Dec 2021 09:48:58 +0200") Message-ID: <87fsrc8goq.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> What would be the best way to implement such a mode? Change >> `glyphless-char-display' buffer-locally? > > Yes, I think so. OK; I've now added this under the name `glyphless-display-mode', and it seems to work fine in my test case (which is TUTORIAL.he). Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 27544 Cc: 27544@debbugs.gnu.org, Itai Berli X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: >> What would be the best way to implement such a mode? Change >> `glyphless-char-display' buffer-locally? > > Yes, I think so. OK; I've now added this under the name `glyphless-display-mode', and it seems to work fine in my test case (which is TUTORIAL.he). -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 01 10:54:04 2021 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Dec 2021 15:54:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45231 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1msRvo-0005FE-B7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 10:54:04 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:54538) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1msRvm-0005EH-PG for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 10:54:03 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=meVof0MBjPcrAqHBcJMnBcNjsU9h6TwoZUljDTCEX5E=; b=Wvq9fS+mY9hkGMbeLlnqUVwG0T JCgI63rbWKrO2GJlu+ILyRVwQrJnxyyGUtmj+6RWGcMm8Q+gnuZy9iPGXDvN9AcfVoYyKJOSlKTov WOgm7yU1BXFUo/QhTt3bqts8zpGffnrVIy8jX8LAsU4dz6849a/HNAj6T+99EoJbFF/w=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1msRve-0000OC-ID for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 16:53:56 +0100 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 16:53:54 +0100 Message-Id: <87bl208god.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #27544 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 27544 29.1 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 27544 29.1 quit From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 01 12:13:12 2021 Received: (at 27544) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Dec 2021 17:13:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45474 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1msTAN-0001EL-Sp for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 12:13:12 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51032) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1msTAM-0001E6-HH for 27544@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 12:13:10 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=59136 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msTAH-0003jJ-B6; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 12:13:05 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=d53274ATWXi8x9rxSUPSZIjvpsuCp+sf1kPB3PXpKU4=; b=NQjLdwlmlqdz s6ld7X5oUctJWAx7tZQTtvTihCe7kV5V/VBt3u32FDbwzCtBK/cgmOU3J/U73WFsBydlmPq2cx/zV TELAiJqW5gbnVtYqtkFtpyAwrJf2x+BLnUNZuRG75Yx0Si5RuORkWPp/+TEUpyS7+fIIHFMF9eNri G0tdCkz06wmWkpO/0qlKjz/bkMRafJkOxvzIlgRe1ucnJTPLpnz1CojcSl4iAcswMeYTEg54LpsHQ z4OtDUvtVGs7rgDIjP+ld68+CTFNy7y8+z/5o/nhtvPvq6HE5eX7SHG8aPDgPalkPpw7WmM13VOd3 nleS4yv6MGMsVlBUOI9AYA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1431 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msTAD-0004bd-2b; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 12:13:04 -0500 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 19:12:45 +0200 Message-Id: <8335ncs0z6.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Lars Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: <87fsrc8goq.fsf@gnus.org> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Wed, 01 Dec 2021 16:53:41 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks References: <87sfvcapqd.fsf@gnus.org> <2C04D747-6772-4283-8455-39FEE767F61F@gnu.org> <87fsrc8goq.fsf@gnus.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 27544 Cc: 27544@debbugs.gnu.org, itai.berli@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen > Cc: Itai Berli , 27544@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 16:53:41 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> What would be the best way to implement such a mode? Change > >> `glyphless-char-display' buffer-locally? > > > > Yes, I think so. > > OK; I've now added this under the name `glyphless-display-mode', and it > seems to work fine in my test case (which is TUTORIAL.he). Thanks. But wouldn't glyphless-hex-display-mode be a better name? glyphless-display-mode doesn't really say what it does to glyphless characters. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 01 12:37:11 2021 Received: (at 27544) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Dec 2021 17:37:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45504 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1msTXb-0001qa-F8 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 12:37:11 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:56076) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1msTXZ-0001qN-9S for 27544@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 12:37:10 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=j12Ue4Rt48IYGxNICb0ipi71QoDi1jPlS6PSv/0S6yU=; b=mP75kOotUgyCVtBiy24qr6cEwv p00AMpYbSkOfRkXvImc4i209ybgCIVlMwoRF82/f4rOpm8PpBv6BrxTFBw4HpkK+ND3/+nAzdkUYz UI5131Fu0sWKbkbMSMFWhK+eXwtQd3dpnGG0DFNguDKiuhJUKKtOZIFmH0nghFYzEHCg=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1msTXP-0001Bu-T3; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 18:37:02 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks References: <87sfvcapqd.fsf@gnus.org> <2C04D747-6772-4283-8455-39FEE767F61F@gnu.org> <87fsrc8goq.fsf@gnus.org> <8335ncs0z6.fsf@gnu.org> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAElBMVEXJyMayr7OWlKBX V2P28xr///9HRQ2EAAAAAWJLR0QF+G/pxwAAAAd0SU1FB+UMARAVJ3mIWvoAAAG0SURBVDjLrZPr deQwCIWFtwHADRipgYzoYE/6r2kvV35McpJ/y5mxZX1CvFu7RMXMVM+vrb2JgJrhKVbrc88oahJc eN1B5H12SuI/C0isS2szYsFOUCqqVhRXrCvdsYsteCMqTeyUEKfReqjIZR+u2dZON8q9S0HpFZey vt6EQCsi+w5g25AOpdqjWBpCh+Xe1cqDNw/4yR9UgmoVz51E7AB5WHgxebIrfuCh1geve0v7HqUX e97ZvVSYLSGAPj/krVp7hsDJpx4MHu/McD+vKtfX22A7P+qUPxYq9CZb5utLH+hKraK0syokzRY5 Tq25ZyrbZx3c4mynHJnHA2yfKvQgIVPuQtmKl2HMnMjyfmugA2ox8gBoMp6Oseoqz/zY42iSdCWu giK8MbeM9ie/1Xpkz8gJmzeIar8OlyrEGASXEQ+HQskFgl1A7gR9zGZ3w+JAh3WCPphitADOR8cb YNSgDLaBEZh3wJzj5QSqZyRRg2P5Gq/uAOw7GudIGXKFeQKgM6UgNWHlVa+ACtTi0uBwcvVMMpLo lcX+qnT66o2ouULgYGNN7d4+f5a/v4HP/wj+AQY+Z1k/V1ZPAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAy MDIxLTEyLTAxVDE2OjIxOjM4KzAwOjAwkysLxAAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMS0xMi0w MVQxNjoyMTozOCswMDowMOJ2s3gAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: DJ Rupture's _Curiosity Slowdown_: "Curiosity Slowdown (part 2)" Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 18:36:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: <8335ncs0z6.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 01 Dec 2021 19:12:45 +0200") Message-ID: <87bl20jkg7.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii writes: > Thanks. But wouldn't glyphless-hex-display-mode be a better name? > glyphless-display-mode doesn't really say what it does to glyphless > characters. It doesn't hexify the glyphs, it uses `acronym'. But I thought we might allow that to be customised if somebody asks for it, which is why it's not called `glyphless-acronym-display-mode'. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 27544 Cc: 27544@debbugs.gnu.org, itai.berli@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii writes: > Thanks. But wouldn't glyphless-hex-display-mode be a better name? > glyphless-display-mode doesn't really say what it does to glyphless > characters. It doesn't hexify the glyphs, it uses `acronym'. But I thought we might allow that to be customised if somebody asks for it, which is why it's not called `glyphless-acronym-display-mode'. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 01 12:54:18 2021 Received: (at 27544) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Dec 2021 17:54:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45546 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1msToA-0002KW-6h for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 12:54:18 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36826) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1msTo8-0002KK-Lt for 27544@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 12:54:17 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=33272 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msTo2-0002l8-LJ; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 12:54:11 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=uNZw9KYxJmtoCqQPqlhYuVZ3ixQNBeofnrfqAnSQzD0=; b=nFhOpW4S/KUy 3tbZGfBq2Ad3a37lUXDR1zBvhs06LCtuIRjBUrSqWPxvQSKeq4W/ukTOEmMNNWtjSWWkGIEdRhGj0 dLdK2CTFPrivHTUfABumlDhxSdCiBTj5ZvNlfzDsXf7MM1jdXAUjKoI0Mv8SNfZgrmjiDRnVIJ8BR Iw6EhgpO+IOYgBt81u0VgxqOAfSs2RyVX0Rv6zOBHNzh94oo3h/drk+6jrfOTXXlwhR0gDr17Bvkk mh/ATb5bJzVYwjrA52DzDlm8LUWTPBXjCjXCisJjXncAy5vuulpOgZcdIXev8bPp/PqKilsQNYPG3 /i/p1Q/mqP1AJIiROPEs8g==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=3974 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1msTo2-0001lW-DI; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 12:54:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 19:53:54 +0200 Message-Id: <83wnkoqki5.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Lars Ingebrigtsen In-Reply-To: <87bl20jkg7.fsf@gnus.org> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Wed, 01 Dec 2021 18:36:56 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks References: <87sfvcapqd.fsf@gnus.org> <2C04D747-6772-4283-8455-39FEE767F61F@gnu.org> <87fsrc8goq.fsf@gnus.org> <8335ncs0z6.fsf@gnu.org> <87bl20jkg7.fsf@gnus.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 27544 Cc: 27544@debbugs.gnu.org, itai.berli@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen > Cc: itai.berli@gmail.com, 27544@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 18:36:56 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Thanks. But wouldn't glyphless-hex-display-mode be a better name? > > glyphless-display-mode doesn't really say what it does to glyphless > > characters. > > It doesn't hexify the glyphs, it uses `acronym'. But I thought we might > allow that to be customised if somebody asks for it, which is why it's > not called `glyphless-acronym-display-mode'. But glyphless-display-mode has no mnemonic value. We already display glyphless characters, so this name doesn't help at all. Does anyone have suggestions for a better name? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 02 04:49:50 2021 Received: (at 27544) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Dec 2021 09:49:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46645 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1msiis-0005wz-Ma for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 04:49:50 -0500 Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.196]:39047) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1msiir-0005wl-0U for 27544@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 04:49:49 -0500 Received: (Authenticated sender: juri@linkov.net) by relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D80ECE0010; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 09:49:40 +0000 (UTC) From: Juri Linkov To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks Organization: LINKOV.NET References: <87sfvcapqd.fsf@gnus.org> <2C04D747-6772-4283-8455-39FEE767F61F@gnu.org> <87fsrc8goq.fsf@gnus.org> <8335ncs0z6.fsf@gnu.org> <87bl20jkg7.fsf@gnus.org> <83wnkoqki5.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2021 11:04:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83wnkoqki5.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 01 Dec 2021 19:53:54 +0200") Message-ID: <865ys7o0q0.fsf@mail.linkov.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 27544 Cc: 27544@debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen , itai.berli@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) >> > Thanks. But wouldn't glyphless-hex-display-mode be a better name? >> > glyphless-display-mode doesn't really say what it does to glyphless >> > characters. >> >> It doesn't hexify the glyphs, it uses `acronym'. But I thought we might >> allow that to be customised if somebody asks for it, which is why it's >> not called `glyphless-acronym-display-mode'. > > But glyphless-display-mode has no mnemonic value. We already display > glyphless characters, so this name doesn't help at all. > > Does anyone have suggestions for a better name? "glyphless-display-mode" looks fine - I read it as to mean a mode that defines how to display glyphless chars. It could also provide a defcustom with a choice from glyphless-char-display-method. Where I see the problem is that the whole new file was created in lisp/textmodes/glyphless-mode.el for just glyphless-display-mode, instead of adding it to lisp/international/characters.el where this feature is defined with all its functions glyphless-char-display-control, update-glyphless-char-display, and more. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 15 13:14:16 2021 Received: (at 27544) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Dec 2021 18:14:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33659 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mxYnA-00058l-Ly for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2021 13:14:16 -0500 Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.19]:45315) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mxYn8-00058W-6R for 27544@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Dec 2021 13:14:14 -0500 Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC8383200681; Wed, 15 Dec 2021 13:14:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 15 Dec 2021 13:14:08 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type; s=fm1; bh=XRw6plGVKoyp7E9P51V0ac27bT 14zk+pQhlN915ACRk=; b=alzw2k7z5OtVPM52qffzDpsUTHHyCUjqi3BlQ02kWZ eWPTC0B4KANHUvpyZ9HNanKEfSePv0fSYpAEBtTqB6rCshweUwxpFC3kfkXmM5yC /XPtdaY1BUnnOW+EMV+gXvSiHWUwvowILelVl6UToKMO+vgWIhvngBdybiHOMftv DJ1VNVED/rRw7xDjw/rPyas8oV+MPoVcFawzX5mTL6KMcha6xnGur9DrWAc8nCxt 7joNnF8J/SVitxwML/g4Mwe8CsJM6w2KnwLjwrHuBDgO5z7Yo+o4qt8bEKD4G4xC VyvZ5qapG222JIe3kV+NCxUqrjnRUIoKiZqg5hRv8kVQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=XRw6pl GVKoyp7E9P51V0ac27bT14zk+pQhlN915ACRk=; b=llJqvLGWE4YkvCKEaUwBR5 Sw5hOfakt3eY7FPFC/UdiUBsgxmQSuS9kfBvYt39AjxkjreZ8mePyforSVM3E207 /oKYcOg2frZzSajj2wnenzuvTZehxoGtW6ZE0PMkI3h1B3CRCC0h4VgGqAAPxRRk Sarjr9XcdazGWhWulS0epQVzvdemHZWNQGtBvyaM1Az7Zd+OZG9UWQHyLqTYtNqt 249n4VuvC+EBtOs2kRwDeFnRqBt2EvVYwbkRF02j95RycDt4cGEBk+pola1JxqqY MgaLofyR+NYlSTXeGfowmmqlReF8dwz3RsmVrTyW15DSGSW2joMySkbyfhQf1EbA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrledvgdduuddvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephffvufgjfhgffffkgggtsehttdertddtredtnecuhfhrohhmpefhihhlihhp phcuifhunhgsihhnuceofhhguhhnsghinhesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdhfmheqnecuggftrf grthhtvghrnhepvdevkeffvdeuvefhuddtjeehkedvueefveettddtveduudfgieffieev ieevhfdtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomh epfhhguhhnsghinhesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdhfmh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 15 Dec 2021 13:14:05 -0500 (EST) From: Filipp Gunbin To: Juri Linkov Subject: Re: bug#27544: 25.1; Visualization of Unicode bidirectional marks In-Reply-To: <865ys7o0q0.fsf@mail.linkov.net> (Juri Linkov's message of "Thu, 02 Dec 2021 11:04:07 +0200") References: <87sfvcapqd.fsf@gnus.org> <2C04D747-6772-4283-8455-39FEE767F61F@gnu.org> <87fsrc8goq.fsf@gnus.org> <8335ncs0z6.fsf@gnu.org> <87bl20jkg7.fsf@gnus.org> <83wnkoqki5.fsf@gnu.org> <865ys7o0q0.fsf@mail.linkov.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (darwin) Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 21:14:03 +0300 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 27544 Cc: 27544@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , Lars Ingebrigtsen , itai.berli@gmail.com X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 02/12/2021 11:04 +0200, Juri Linkov wrote: >>> > Thanks. But wouldn't glyphless-hex-display-mode be a better name? >>> > glyphless-display-mode doesn't really say what it does to glyphless >>> > characters. >>> >>> It doesn't hexify the glyphs, it uses `acronym'. But I thought we might >>> allow that to be customised if somebody asks for it, which is why it's >>> not called `glyphless-acronym-display-mode'. >> >> But glyphless-display-mode has no mnemonic value. We already display >> glyphless characters, so this name doesn't help at all. >> >> Does anyone have suggestions for a better name? > > "glyphless-display-mode" looks fine - I read it as to mean > a mode that defines how to display glyphless chars. > It could also provide a defcustom with a choice from > glyphless-char-display-method. Maybe glyphless-char-display-mode? I'm sure that was considered, and dropped, but glyphless-display-mode is just too broad... Is it a mode with no glyphs displayed? From unknown Sun Jun 22 07:35:06 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 12:24:07 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator