From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 19 02:48:22 2017 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 May 2017 06:48:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54267 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dBbi2-0005g6-6c for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2017 02:48:22 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:47072) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dBbi0-0005fs-VL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2017 02:48:21 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dBbhv-0005Do-2C for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2017 02:48:15 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:55682) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dBbhu-0005DW-VG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2017 02:48:14 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38025) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dBbht-0004AA-Ra for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2017 02:48:14 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dBbhp-0005Be-UP for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2017 02:48:13 -0400 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:41726 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dBbhp-0005B0-Ad for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2017 02:48:09 -0400 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id v4J6m1sO052237 for ; Thu, 18 May 2017 23:48:03 -0700 Message-ID: <591E9521.5040706@tlinx.org> Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 23:48:01 -0700 From: L A Walsh User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bug-coreutils@gnu.org Subject: New quoting takes up unnecessary space Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x (no timestamps) [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) The new format uses extra spacing on columns where it isn't needed -- but the extra space isn't enough to handle the 1 file that was quoted (needs 5 extra columns). Where does it get '3' (and why doesn't it use 2?)? Here are 32 files: > ls aaaaaaa bbbbbbb ccccccc ddddddd eeeeeee fffffff ggggggg hhhhhhh aaaaaaa0 bbbbbbb0 ccccccc0 ddddddd0 eeeeeee0 fffffff0 ggggggg0 hhhhhhh0 aaaaaaa1 bbbbbbb1 ccccccc1 ddddddd1 eeeeeee1 fffffff1 ggggggg1 hhhhhhh1 aaaaaaa2 bbbbbbb2 ccccccc2 ddddddd2 eeeeeee2 fffffff2 ggggggg2 hhhhhhh2 # ^^ -- 2 chars separate > mv aaaaaaa \"aaaa\'\" #same number of characters > ls '"aaaa'\''"' bbbbbbb0 ccccccc1 ddddddd2 fffffff ggggggg0 hhhhhhh1 aaaaaaa0 bbbbbbb1 ccccccc2 eeeeeee fffffff0 ggggggg1 hhhhhhh2 aaaaaaa1 bbbbbbb2 ddddddd eeeeeee0 fffffff1 ggggggg2 aaaaaaa2 ccccccc ddddddd0 eeeeeee1 fffffff2 hhhhhhh bbbbbbb ccccccc0 ddddddd1 eeeeeee2 ggggggg hhhhhhh0 ^^^ - now using minimum of 3 spaces between columns From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 19 04:59:38 2017 Received: (at 26991) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 May 2017 08:59:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54377 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dBdl4-0000HY-Mb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2017 04:59:38 -0400 Received: from mail.magicbluesmoke.com ([82.195.144.49]:35264) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dBdl2-0000HQ-KG for 26991@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2017 04:59:37 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown [109.79.198.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.magicbluesmoke.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5093694E9; Fri, 19 May 2017 09:59:35 +0100 (IST) Subject: Re: bug#26991: New quoting takes up unnecessary space To: L A Walsh , 26991@debbugs.gnu.org References: <591E9521.5040706@tlinx.org> From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=c3=a1draig_Brady?= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 09:59:34 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <591E9521.5040706@tlinx.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26991 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) On 19/05/17 07:48, L A Walsh wrote: > > > The new format uses extra spacing on columns where it isn't needed -- > but the extra space isn't enough to handle the 1 file that was quoted > (needs 5 extra columns). Where does it get '3' (and why doesn't it use > 2?)? Yes one can construct edge cases where this isn't ideal. The normal case though is the quoted files are interspersed in various columns. It's more important to have consistent spacing I think on modern terminals. Anyway with layouts like this you get more wasted space when a few files have relatively longer names, irrespective of quoting, which is a much more common issue. The spacing is increased to 3 to allow for an extra space for left alignment of non quoted items with quoted ones. The alignment is more important for long listing I think, but thought it a net benefit for other formats also. Pádraig. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri May 19 20:37:36 2017 Received: (at 26991) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 May 2017 00:37:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55788 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dBsOm-0005oK-6p for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2017 20:37:36 -0400 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:40962 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dBsOj-0005oB-UT for 26991@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 May 2017 20:37:34 -0400 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id v4K0bT2a030602; Fri, 19 May 2017 17:37:32 -0700 Message-ID: <591F8FC9.8000106@tlinx.org> Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 17:37:29 -0700 From: L A Walsh User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?UMOhZHJhaWcgQnJhZHk=?= Subject: Re: bug#26991: New quoting takes up unnecessary space References: <591E9521.5040706@tlinx.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26991 Cc: 26991@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) Pádraig Brady wrote: > On 19/05/17 07:48, L A Walsh wrote: >> >> The new format uses extra spacing on columns where it isn't needed -- >> but the extra space isn't enough to handle the 1 file that was quoted >> (needs 5 extra columns). Where does it get '3' (and why doesn't it use >> 2?)? > > Yes one can construct edge cases where this isn't ideal. > The normal case though is the quoted files are interspersed > in various columns. --- Like this?: '"aaaa'\''"' bbbbbbb0 'ddd ddd1' eeeeeee0 ggggggg hhhhhhh1 'aaa aaa1' bbbbbbb2 ddddddd eeeeeee2 ggggggg0 hhhhhhh2 aaaaaaa0 'ccc ccc1' ddddddd0 fffffff ggggggg1 aaaaaaa2 ccccccc ddddddd2 fffffff0 ggggggg2 'bbb bbb1' ccccccc0 'eee eee1' fffffff1 hhhhhhh bbbbbbb ccccccc2 eeeeeee fffffff2 hhhhhhh0 1234567 1234 1234 123 123 You have 3 different spacings between columns. Your argument of using 3-spaces for an extra quote vs. 2 when not needed is looking pretty unsupportable since it doesn't use 3 when quotes ARE needed (it uses 4). The above could just as easily have been: '"aaaa'\''"' bbbbbbb0 'ddd ddd1' eeeeeee0 ggggggg hhhhhhh1 'aaa aaa1' bbbbbbb2 ddddddd eeeeeee2 ggggggg0 hhhhhhh2 aaaaaaa0 'ccc ccc1' ddddddd0 fffffff ggggggg1 aaaaaaa2 ccccccc ddddddd2 fffffff0 ggggggg2 'bbb bbb1' ccccccc0 eeeeeee1 fffffff1 hhhhhhh bbbbbbb ccccccc2 eeeeeee fffffff2 hhhhhhh0 And this: '"aaa'\''"' bbbbbb cccccc0 dddddd2 ffffff gggggg0 hhhhhh1 'aaa aa1' bbbbbb0 cccccc2 'eee ee1' ffffff0 gggggg1 hhhhhh2 aaaaaa0 bbbbbb2 'ddd dd1' eeeeee ffffff1 gggggg2 aaaaaa2 'ccc cc1' dddddd eeeeee0 ffffff2 hhhhhh 'bbb bb1' cccccc dddddd0 eeeeee2 gggggg hhhhhh0 12345 123 123 123 123 123 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890 Could have been: '"aaa'\''"' 'bbb bb1' 'ccc cc1' dddddd1 eeeeee1 ffffff gggggg hhhhhh 'aaa aa1' bbbbb cccccc dddddd eeeeee ffffff0 gggggg0 hhhhhh0 aaaaaa0 bbbbb0 cccccc0 dddddd0 eeeeee0 ffffff1 gggggg1 hhhhhh1 aaaaaa2 bbbbb2 cccccc2 dddddd2 eeeeee2 ffffff2 gggggg2 hhhhhh2 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890 > It's more important to have consistent spacing I think on modern terminals. ---- But you don't as shown above -- you simply waste an extra space using 3 columns of padding rather than 2. > Anyway with layouts > like this you get more wasted space when a few files have > relatively longer names, irrespective of quoting, which is > a much more common issue. --- Irrelevant. You are using 3 spaces when no quoting is needed, instead of 2, forcing an extra column into all output regardless of name length. > > The spacing is increased to 3 to allow for an extra space > for left alignment of non quoted items with quoted ones. --- As shown above it isn't needed. I have 2 between 2 quoted items, between a combo w/1-quoted and 1 not, and 2 between non-quoted. 2-spaces between visible characters in all columns. > The alignment is more important for long listing I think, > but thought it a net benefit for other formats also. --- For a long listing, you don't multiply the spacing by N columns. You only have 1 column, so ANY filename w/a quote would require an extra space for the entire (1) column to line up, but in a long listing things are still odd looking w/the last column sticking out: > ls -l *[ab]* -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:28 '"aaa'\''"' -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 'aaa aa1' -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 aaaaaa0 -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 aaaaaa2 -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 'bbb bb1' -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 bbbbbb -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 bbbbbb0 -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 bbbbbb2 ---vs. non quoted format--- -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:28 "aaa'" -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 aaa aa1 -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 aaaaaa0 -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 aaaaaa2 -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 bbb bb1 -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 bbbbbb -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 bbbbbb0 -rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 bbbbbb2 Very simply, the new format is wasting space with no justifiable reason. 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Content preview: retitle 26991 ls-quotes: new quoting takes up unnecessary space [...] Content analysis details: (2.0 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (assafgordon[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.210.175 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2 RBL: Average reputation (+2) [209.85.210.175 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 1.8 MISSING_SUBJECT Missing Subject: header 0.2 NO_SUBJECT Extra score for no subject X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) retitle 26991 ls-quotes: new quoting takes up unnecessary space From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 13 15:35:03 2018 Received: (at 26991-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Dec 2018 20:35:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46875 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gXXhH-0000z2-65 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 15:35:03 -0500 Received: from mail-pl1-f175.google.com ([209.85.214.175]:46039) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gXXhE-0000yK-RY for 26991-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 15:35:01 -0500 Received: by mail-pl1-f175.google.com with SMTP id a14so1578191plm.12 for <26991-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:35:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QxbBbBo6R+x14VlXI9T3HsrKg/nmnW04T16k/ShCYH4=; b=LevOCYzXGVdS6FDFWmQBRdWU7/e8IQ0B4Utx2YESZBjYc+wvGN9mkZl6tE0zlz0Obi 2sQFarp1UqgBUDstb/MxWeHX8VICWDBI2/v6CBWphoi5PZM0+VNaTRopXzrNvzNTo6RL apdvMs+kNSIjGsbON1DPJoJtBVphXGYCqg40XLR9tDvN/Y7aeDlgw/YgeHTr3LsvP6+i zamYeonMsOuYki/k1Y2+Z/aS0nSni03IUE7GhmiT3DKOhbICYEKlVi7HskSll7sbAwSh hcPU/wODOtb/T37Zzd7Vu4d5L1xUZ8hBJ6xsxegVhhXJuFhKYiygBSbiFtxOUSvwBqOc XYkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QxbBbBo6R+x14VlXI9T3HsrKg/nmnW04T16k/ShCYH4=; b=NSNhFui5KUMjDHhzK7MoLQRrvLWSv7jk1u1mbO8PSr9WnMN083WVmC/S8RcE53Pd2w +y83I9+3cFY8w32Pibv7v4wtcpFLpjo2rtSWVAVjnc4EI81M7XQIi6AjFkEMRbDA18K6 8w6DksFCi2gGBJw2tKMRDkTe7jMZT6h8AK/IJfG/tXEKrRfTSQmDAm9Xyl8gQgQtJINp r6wX92EsBVbs+9c38+9AZzyXPiehomDRaKNXnsXcbFSS1nonzuYxdk4l/teRG9Q2wiBe sJ9F8lwtHEgcU0H7CB8Bw/cS1ce4IwlWA8dTPKeTPRo7J+1CrGxjbPb7Ndo8MkL1Wsrv nQ7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWagi8NSHtgKcg52dVrzbt7H4wZ44bSxyupRa3Hey+0Df5ntu374 Q8jntC7rVu42xVoGo3CqrsZG441wll8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XIV+AEfim83h9bEUnpqD8smHa7uORfmgjrAnasNzKoKtAbQBRr0dyT+IlzBfXwHClrZMMWxA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:9887:: with SMTP id s7mr243631plp.199.1544733294584; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomato.housegordon.com (moose.housegordon.com. [184.68.105.38]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id d3sm3661563pgl.64.2018.12.13.12.34.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:34:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#26991: New quoting takes up unnecessary space To: L A Walsh References: <591E9521.5040706@tlinx.org> <591F8FC9.8000106@tlinx.org> From: Assaf Gordon Message-ID: <1c3ddff7-7b3a-12b8-1cb1-710b15ec9e9e@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 13:34:52 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <591F8FC9.8000106@tlinx.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26991-done Cc: 26991-done@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, On 2017-05-19 6:37 p.m., L A Walsh wrote: > > > Pádraig Brady wrote: >> On 19/05/17 07:48, L A Walsh wrote: >>> >>> The new format uses extra spacing on columns where it isn't needed -- >>> but the extra space isn't enough to handle the 1 file that was quoted >>> (needs 5 extra columns).  Where does it get '3' (and why doesn't it use >>> 2?)? >> We created a summary of common issues and FAQs regarding the quoting change in ls(1): https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/quotes.html If there is an issue that is not addressed there, please send an email to coreutils@gnu.org . regards, - assaf From unknown Sat Aug 09 05:00:19 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 12:24:10 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator