From unknown Wed Jun 25 05:38:57 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#26299 <26299@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#26299 <26299@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: 24.5; Use of =?UTF-8?Q?`=E2=80=A6'?= in Info Reply-To: bug#26299 <26299@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2025 12:38:57 +0000 retitle 26299 24.5; Use of `=E2=80=A6' in Info reassign 26299 emacs submitter 26299 Drew Adams severity 26299 wishlist tag 26299 notabug thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 29 10:44:40 2017 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Mar 2017 14:44:40 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51452 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ctEq0-0004Rj-Fx for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:44:40 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:52720) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ctEpy-0004RP-6F for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:44:39 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ctEps-0005Xs-7b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:44:33 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:50706) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ctEps-0005Xo-4U for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:44:32 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43677) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ctEpr-0002Iw-3C for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:44:31 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ctEpn-0005WK-On for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:44:31 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:47320) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ctEpn-0005Vj-EX for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:44:27 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v2TEiPNk002385 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:44:25 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2TEiPSx003588 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:44:25 GMT Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2TEiP0S018277 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:44:25 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <70f7b182-ca55-499c-8afe-6bd4aef370a1@default> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:44:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: =?utf-8?B?MjQuNTsgVXNlIG9mIGDigKYnIGluIEluZm8=?= X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6753.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) As one user, I find the adoption of `=E2=80=A6' instead of `...' to be a retrogression, not an improvement. It is far less readable. Just one opinion. Compare, as one example among zillions: -- Macro: with-help-window buffer-name body=E2=80=A6 with -- Macro: with-help-window buffer-name body... I cannot imagine what someone thought, when making this change. Did it come just because we _can_ now use that Unicode character? That's not a reason that we _should_ use it in such contexts. In GNU Emacs 24.5.1 (i686-pc-mingw32) of 2015-04-11 on LEG570 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --prefix=3D3D/c/usr --host=3D3Di686-pc-mingw32' From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Wed Mar 29 23:39:29 2017 Received: (at 26299) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Mar 2017 03:39:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51804 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ctQvo-0001H2-OV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 23:39:28 -0400 Received: from mail-it0-f49.google.com ([209.85.214.49]:35175) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ctQvn-0001Gn-6H for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 23:39:27 -0400 Received: by mail-it0-f49.google.com with SMTP id y18so165359495itc.0 for <26299@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:39:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZIWizMmWsN1Ysvk2NjcVSDluZ1Ircy22pnI0v+ziz8M=; b=UZnAAbKKN3GjdIGP4y683F/SGOPHPp1clkIqGNZQSzkKA/RtjkE1gL5f15Hrv5MuHd x5NykM1LTCOvHecVU82aAw4XY9Wm2Pu8SLxurtmwu0Ty0hzwKWPfjsG9JdDJWQ8g60Bg B778pHON7+ynTBYM3ngQ9EhwrOWqhh6u7vyWZl5va5FFMuxEhke6B4OVbt9nRfT37iCI fbLw9ZS/ZsS/ylC8kDTZ3jRHTcCRDhI7VLBs1nyNUyxhL3HXLT+zeS5Oq3Nx7OgcnMoq ukwweXzDCWD///eJW7TyrBdK+WytljsDtQSPI6p2hrDEo64J2vxuibxZtLDvq7iX70Eu H2EA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZIWizMmWsN1Ysvk2NjcVSDluZ1Ircy22pnI0v+ziz8M=; b=FC3reJgG7ONGXniFyupNhHq8IRLVY+V9nJ86ETMqt2SXs7ViQaGsjJBA5S9p9RqPJX 36GFgvK5m4N+uPR8dcRuxv5x7Vi7yhwCAiEbLG52YMrBXQxzHWsDGW1zlHzkd4ZzJojO QERwD037BiDF+4ICm8ZF/5nkY+2sQJZ4NviQgpyv6Jk5NQwNI8JMJUZEP8cusGoVCckn DrkpLa8hLZ6GFaUFbjptfJuIka11YcdIhCjFdA6jb5AXsLFtX/4jpEJljPrvtA+I1jMT 6ulW/0tccNNRI9HQhj9/QGP2v5EFDNvXqjse8h1zEXYGXSrooNAgVSZ+Z0SD+WwC2GcP sIGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2xvg06VHw6Sdy97AlQ+QbP3buFdtGadaU0Fn4JwqqvDWF1+EqYDCtU0BA30scLPw== X-Received: by 10.36.28.130 with SMTP id c124mr2138903itc.17.1490845161633; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zony ([45.2.7.65]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id c3sm4429617ith.24.2017.03.29.20.39.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:39:21 -0700 (PDT) From: npostavs@users.sourceforge.net To: Drew Adams Subject: Re: bug#26299: 24.5; Use of =?utf-8?Q?`=E2=80=A6'?= in Info References: <70f7b182-ca55-499c-8afe-6bd4aef370a1@default> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 23:40:43 -0400 In-Reply-To: <70f7b182-ca55-499c-8afe-6bd4aef370a1@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:44:23 -0700 (PDT)") Message-ID: <877f373004.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26299 Cc: 26299@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) Drew Adams writes: > As one user, I find the adoption of `=E2=80=A6' instead of `...' to be a > retrogression, not an improvement. It is far less readable. Just one > opinion. > > Compare, as one example among zillions: > > -- Macro: with-help-window buffer-name body=E2=80=A6 > > with > > -- Macro: with-help-window buffer-name body... > > I cannot imagine what someone thought, when making this change. Did it > come just because we _can_ now use that Unicode character? That's not > a reason that we _should_ use it in such contexts. This seems to be another feature of the new (i.e., 5+) texinfo (like the curly quotes). I'm still using 4.13 so I see "..." here. You can make Emacs display "=E2=80=A6" as "..." with (aset (or standard-display-table (setq standard-display-table (make-display-table))) ?=E2=80=A6 (vconcat "...")) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 30 09:49:28 2017 Received: (at 26299) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Mar 2017 13:49:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52089 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ctaS8-00039S-3J for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:49:28 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:21177) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ctaS6-00039G-LR for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:49:27 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v2UDnJKZ002489 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:49:20 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2UDnJlf030631 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:49:19 GMT Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2UDnIJV031336; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:49:19 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:49:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: npostavs@users.sourceforge.net Subject: =?utf-8?B?UkU6IGJ1ZyMyNjI5OTogMjQuNTsgVXNlIG9mIGDigKYnIGluIEluZm8=?= References: <70f7b182-ca55-499c-8afe-6bd4aef370a1@default> <877f373004.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> In-Reply-To: <877f373004.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6753.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26299 Cc: 26299@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) > > As one user, I find the adoption of `=E2=80=A6' instead of `...' to be = a > > retrogression, not an improvement. It is far less readable. Just one > > opinion. > > > > Compare, as one example among zillions: > > -- Macro: with-help-window buffer-name body=E2=80=A6 > > with > > -- Macro: with-help-window buffer-name body... > > > > I cannot imagine what someone thought, when making this change. Did it > > come just because we _can_ now use that Unicode character? That's not > > a reason that we _should_ use it in such contexts. >=20 > This seems to be another feature of the new (i.e., 5+) texinfo (like the > curly quotes). I'm still using 4.13 so I see "..." here. You can make > Emacs display "=E2=80=A6" as "..." with >=20 > (aset (or standard-display-table > (setq standard-display-table (make-display-table))) > ?=E2=80=A6 (vconcat "...")) Thanks for tracking down the cause. It's not about fixing the regressive appearance just for me. It's about Emacs users. Maybe Emacs needs to work around the problem (if it can't be fixed). Maybe if Emacs uses `. . .' instead of `...' that will stop Texinfo from messing with it. (Why would Texinfo have a blanket treatment of ... as =E2=80=A6? That makes no sense at all. What if the occurrence of ... is part of code, and NEEDS to be 3 period chars?) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 30 10:34:45 2017 Received: (at 26299) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Mar 2017 14:34:45 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53045 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ctb9w-0004VL-Rs for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:34:45 -0400 Received: from mail-oi0-f42.google.com ([209.85.218.42]:35750) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ctb9u-0004V7-Lm for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:34:42 -0400 Received: by mail-oi0-f42.google.com with SMTP id f193so32931632oib.2 for <26299@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:34:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=T7j3hS38a7Izz2iTs+LUtqiauFxRG07LYYIEEh913rA=; b=L7yKEGVaCz9wN65gVQpZOT8VeVwkEwPr8Ux9nK+lIEA/dFdxoQ4PT+WsCl5ABvMltu 5EqXhmW8jwIuOZsZXcB8cqzaBTAFOsFy6P/FDsDn7gLDGAqk9XO0Rpyr3NgIQDLn+DYn Qw4w6qOlmtx8zbwb9krIpSPyHiCzFfFXe+HDZ2VEitI/ZkIaF+2J2dVTAOBp+ce9fHB+ r6JJDwhVOFfUZF1viR/Hj0shQJKOuTwj8sRjSqgRKsIzU+54ciTpWChVKGgiFStQSSRC +R3GsHztrVXFuHldK0TSJ9eb5vjasNVx0qlK66U63csyS20MbaABtqWUkMgZt8XLwfmh oKWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=T7j3hS38a7Izz2iTs+LUtqiauFxRG07LYYIEEh913rA=; b=TKxkyJNCeDOoasXPBwYgCy2UDLfaClae5ZEXI9CO6/rSdzRDJadWD/Y5Wjq7yOf9o9 HS2qgrhfSrtQbVSlQzpKde7o48J4nDS2d1rRkZ49txaveDFn5VhkLe4P8pulvAuuwK8m AXqaudf8tzWx1N8ZBfY8lpJwV5fwwHjABQLeBDSP3QNZDkLNFuRVXNeEENfDHgvXl9Od ZVQwcXtNKZaRk/H/+ILNtw8tpbP8vW+o2EDUAnRvMSXSm78tsZGpaOOTzIJI2IicU/qa lwp/H5Yn2FUbRo6OvphkuDtjp5QiOE96B2CsS/YFI8a3c2TV+RQ3Cau670UIN6SL9bfQ 5xGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2zh/T7CuZkoSEuTEYENkYgHt8PdwQZIwOUxlKkS4gGc+ubgMNFqTB2glcl32QiTO/l82x019J/n44vig== X-Received: by 10.157.7.199 with SMTP id 65mr35827oto.30.1490884476753; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:34:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.80.133 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:34:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <70f7b182-ca55-499c-8afe-6bd4aef370a1@default> <877f373004.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> From: Noam Postavsky Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:34:36 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8-9whPrbJZC0P2yVIkjg5cymWVs Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IGJ1ZyMyNjI5OTogMjQuNTsgVXNlIG9mIGDigKYnIGluIEluZm8=?= To: Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26299 Cc: 26299@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 9:49 AM, Drew Adams wrote: > > Maybe Emacs needs to work around the problem (if it can't be > fixed). Maybe if Emacs uses `. . .' instead of `...' that > will stop Texinfo from messing with it. > > (Why would Texinfo have a blanket treatment of ... as =E2=80=A6? > That makes no sense at all. What if the occurrence of ... > is part of code, and NEEDS to be 3 period chars?) Emacs' .texi files use @dots{} in these cases, as (strongly) recommended by the texinfo manual: https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/html_node/_0040dots.htm= l An ellipsis (a sequence of dots) would be spaced wrong when typeset as a string of periods, so a special command is used in Texinfo: use the @dots{} command to generate a normal ellipsis, which is three dots in a row, appropriately spaced =E2=80=A6 like so. To emphasize: do not sim= ply write three periods in the input file; that would work for the Info file output, but would produce the wrong amount of space between the periods in the printed manual. I found this thread [1] requesting plain "..." for @dots{} in makeinfo output; there seemed to be no opposition, but I guess it didn't happen. Perhaps try pinging bug-texinfo@gnu.org? [1]: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-texinfo/2015-07/msg00013.html From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Mar 30 10:56:30 2017 Received: (at 26299) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Mar 2017 14:56:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53074 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ctbV0-000508-AH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:56:30 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:37622) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ctbUy-0004zt-D0 for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:56:28 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v2UEuMnk011158 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:56:22 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2UEuMeR009078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:56:22 GMT Received: from abhmp0012.oracle.com (abhmp0012.oracle.com [141.146.116.18]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2UEuJvv011629; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:56:20 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <474e169d-6f2e-440b-b968-22d091e59600@default> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:56:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Noam Postavsky Subject: =?utf-8?B?UkU6IGJ1ZyMyNjI5OTogMjQuNTsgVXNlIG9mIGDigKYnIGluIEluZm8=?= References: <70f7b182-ca55-499c-8afe-6bd4aef370a1@default> <877f373004.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6753.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26299 Cc: 26299@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.1 (-----) > > Maybe Emacs needs to work around the problem (if it can't be > > fixed). Maybe if Emacs uses `. . .' instead of `...' that > > will stop Texinfo from messing with it. > > > > (Why would Texinfo have a blanket treatment of ... as =E2=80=A6? > > That makes no sense at all. What if the occurrence of ... > > is part of code, and NEEDS to be 3 period chars?) >=20 > Emacs' .texi files use @dots{} in these cases, as (strongly) > recommended by the texinfo manual: >=20 > An ellipsis (a sequence of dots) would be spaced wrong when typeset a= s > a string of periods, so a special command is used in Texinfo: use the > @dots{} command to generate a normal ellipsis, which is three dots in > a row, appropriately spaced =E2=80=A6 like so. To emphasize: do not s= imply > write three periods in the input file; that would work for the Info > file output, but would produce the wrong amount of space between the > periods in the printed manual. >=20 > I found this thread [1] requesting plain "..." for @dots{} in makeinfo > output; there seemed to be no opposition, but I guess it didn't > happen. Perhaps try pinging bug-texinfo@gnu.org? Thanks for checking on this, Noam. I will leave it to Emacs maintainers to decide whether to ping bug-texinfo. I reported the complaint as one Emacs user. Dunno what Emacs Dev will decide is the desired behavior. I know what I prefer. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Jun 11 22:49:23 2017 Received: (at 26299) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jun 2017 02:49:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41681 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dKFPu-0004ei-Rb for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 22:49:23 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:21288) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dKFPr-0004eU-K0 for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jun 2017 22:49:20 -0400 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v5C2nC6r020085 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 12 Jun 2017 02:49:13 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v5C2nBOF023118 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 12 Jun 2017 02:49:12 GMT Received: from abhmp0001.oracle.com (abhmp0001.oracle.com [141.146.116.7]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v5C2nAOQ024471; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 02:49:11 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2ee7f2fb-2d2e-4c1b-8c0f-4700330d967c@default> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 19:49:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Noam Postavsky Subject: =?utf-8?B?UkU6IGJ1ZyMyNjI5OTogMjQuNTsgVXNlIG9mIGDigKYnIGluIEluZm8=?= References: <70f7b182-ca55-499c-8afe-6bd4aef370a1@default> <877f373004.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <474e169d-6f2e-440b-b968-22d091e59600@default> In-Reply-To: <474e169d-6f2e-440b-b968-22d091e59600@default> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6767.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="__14972357508467415abhmp0001.oracle.com" X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26299 Cc: 26299@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) --__14972357508467415abhmp0001.oracle.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="__14972357508497416abhmp0001.oracle.com" --__14972357508497416abhmp0001.oracle.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > Maybe Emacs needs to work around the problem (if it can't be > > > fixed).=C2=A0 Maybe if Emacs uses `. . .' instead of `...' that > > > will stop Texinfo from messing with it. > > > > > > (Why would Texinfo have a blanket treatment of ... as =E2=80=A6? > > > That makes no sense at all.=C2=A0 What if the occurrence of ... > > > is part of code, and NEEDS to be 3 period chars?) > > > > Emacs' .texi files use @dots{} in these cases, as (strongly) > > recommended by the texinfo manual: > > > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 An ellipsis (a sequence of dots) would be space= d wrong when typeset as > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a string of periods, so a special command is us= ed in Texinfo: use the > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 @dots{} command to generate a normal ellipsis, = which is three dots in > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a row, appropriately spaced =E2=80=A6 like so. = To emphasize: do not simply > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 write three periods in the input file; that wou= ld work for the Info > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 file output, but would produce the wrong amount= of space between the > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 periods in the printed manual. > > > > I found this thread [1] requesting plain "..." for @dots{} in makeinfo > > output; there seemed to be no opposition, but I guess it didn't > > happen. Perhaps try pinging bug-texinfo@gnu.org? >=20 > Thanks for checking on this, Noam.=C2=A0 I will leave it to Emacs > maintainers to decide whether to ping bug-texinfo.=C2=A0 I reported > the complaint as one Emacs user.=C2=A0 Dunno what Emacs Dev will > decide is the desired behavior.=C2=A0 I know what I prefer. =C2=A0 Dunno whether you want a separate bug report for this, but here is a related problem that is even worse, IMO: The character RIGHTWARDS ARROW FROM BAR (#x421) is no good in Info, at least in some fonts. It is too narrow.=C2=A0 Previously Emacs used `=3D=3D>' instead of that char. See attached screenshot, where the font is (for some reason): -outline-MS Gothic-normal-normal-normal-mono-14-*-*-*-c-*-jisx0208*-* =C2=A0 The font for the rest of the chars in that screenshot is: -outline-Lucida Console-normal-normal-normal-mono-14-*-*-*-c-*-iso8859-1. =C2=A0 Don't ask me why Emacs uses that font for that char - I have no idea.=C2=A0 (And yes, to Eli's typical response to questions about fonts for odd chars, I do have Symbola installed.=C2=A0 But Emacs doesn't seem to use it, here.) --__14972357508497416abhmp0001.oracle.com Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> > > Maybe Emacs needs to work aro= und the problem (if it can't be

> > > fixed).=C2=A0 Ma= ybe if Emacs uses `. . .' instead of `...' that

> > > = will stop Texinfo from messing with it.

> > >

> > > (Why would Texinfo have a blanket treatment of ... as = =E2=80=A6?

> > > That makes no sense at all.=C2=A0 Wha= t if the occurrence of ...

> > > is part of code, and = NEEDS to be 3 period chars?)

<= span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>> >

> > Em= acs' .texi files use @dots{} in these cases, as (strongly)

>= > recommended by the texinfo manual:

> >

= > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 An ellipsis (a sequence of dots) would be= spaced wrong when typeset as

= > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= a string of periods, so a special command is used in Texinfo: use the=

> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 @dots{} command to generate a nor= mal ellipsis, which is three dots in

> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 a row, appropriately spaced =E2=80=A6 like so. To emphasize: do n= ot simply

> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 write three periods= in the input file; that would work for the Info

> >=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 file output, but would produce the wrong amount of sp= ace between the

> >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 periods in th= e printed manual.

> >

> > I found this= thread [1] requesting plain "..." for @dots{} in makeinfo

> > output; there seemed to be no opposition, but I guess it di= dn't

> > happen. Perhaps try pinging bug-texinfo@gnu.org?=

>

> Thanks for checking on this, Noam.=C2= =A0 I will leave it to Emacs

<= span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>> maintainers to decide whether= to ping bug-texinfo.=C2=A0 I reported

> the complaint as on= e Emacs user.=C2=A0 Dunno what Emacs Dev will

> decide is th= e desired behavior.=C2=A0 I know what I prefer.

 

Dunno whether you want a separate bug report for this, but = here

is a related problem that is even worse, IMO: = The character

RIGHTWARDS ARROW FROM BAR (#x421) is = no good in Info, at least

in some fonts. It is too = narrow.=C2=A0 Previously Emacs used `=3D=3D>'

in= stead of that char. See attached screenshot, where the font

is (for some reason):

-outline-MS Gothic-n= ormal-normal-normal-mono-14-*-*-*-c-*-jisx0208*-*

<= o:p> 

The font for the rest of the chars in that sc= reenshot is:

-outline-Lucida Console-normal-normal-= normal-mono-14-*-*-*-c-*-iso8859-1.

 

Don't ask me why Emacs uses that font for that char - I hav= e no

idea.=C2=A0 (And yes, to Eli's typical respons= e to questions about

fonts for odd chars, I do have= Symbola installed.=C2=A0 But Emacs

doesn't seem to= use it, here.)

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GPvlWb5v5hGtVD1g2ePKChQezBqNJDwXge1p1/9Q5eiysLlN31qwPTVtdyeyfpLaE1E+JH0g9Iv4 fssB+f76vk/CIk0wpWG99rud5X2dHbpUufQN24nXBarjmwRNqhrdv9Dr7Us98booOg2qfhBDSU2r 7jGeYso1DuwbAdgbWdBFoX21VhZaIyCKTocbKfjU2w7FMhQon0kAAJowH27UFgVCv+LLzxVpXcy7 VlkjlkPRaZCqIn0jC3CFBllQwH/rLbn8aPoTtb9kulovRacBDjUVjDkDS6+I+hlTvzrSfybH6rJU /Uxicqw9PcJz4QupHPM5AlWRVciyjOtCG/2UD4ko8iG0P9b3yavXZnuGO/a6KJah1Oo98zVrzBZy Yfd3xMn/Axa839OtH+uCAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC --__14972357508467415abhmp0001.oracle.com-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jun 12 10:24:47 2017 Received: (at 26299) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jun 2017 14:24:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43584 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dKQGs-0002uv-V7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 10:24:47 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:58789) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dKQGr-0002ui-8o for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 10:24:45 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dKQGj-0006aj-07 for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 10:24:40 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:46880) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dKQGi-0006aa-Sh; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 10:24:36 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3340 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dKQGh-0000xS-7D; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 10:24:36 -0400 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 17:24:24 +0300 Message-Id: <83efup5lnr.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <2ee7f2fb-2d2e-4c1b-8c0f-4700330d967c@default> (message from Drew Adams on Sun, 11 Jun 2017 19:49:08 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#26299: 24.5; Use of =?utf-8?Q?`=E2=80=A6'?= in Info References: <70f7b182-ca55-499c-8afe-6bd4aef370a1@default> <877f373004.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <474e169d-6f2e-440b-b968-22d091e59600@default> <2ee7f2fb-2d2e-4c1b-8c0f-4700330d967c@default> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26299 Cc: 26299@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2017 19:49:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: 26299@debbugs.gnu.org > > Dunno whether you want a separate bug report for this, but here > is a related problem that is even worse, IMO: The character > RIGHTWARDS ARROW FROM BAR (#x421) is no good in Info, at least > in some fonts. It is too narrow. Previously Emacs used `==>' > instead of that char. See attached screenshot, where the font > is (for some reason): > -outline-MS Gothic-normal-normal-normal-mono-14-*-*-*-c-*-jisx0208*-* > The font for the rest of the chars in that screenshot is: > -outline-Lucida Console-normal-normal-normal-mono-14-*-*-*-c-*-iso8859-1. > Don't ask me why Emacs uses that font for that char - I have no > idea. (And yes, to Eli's typical response to questions about > fonts for odd chars, I do have Symbola installed. But Emacs > doesn't seem to use it, here.) Granted, I cannot reproduce this. I tried on 2 systems, and on both this character (whose codepoint is #x21a6, btw, not #x421) is displayed using Symbola. Does this happen for you in "emacs -Q" as well? If not, can you tell what customizations related to fonts or faces do you have that could cause this? If "emacs -Q" shows the same problem, then I guess it's some issue related to what fonts you have installed (e.g., could it be that your Symbola is outdated and doesn't cover that character?) or something like that. I could propose a couple of solutions if that is the case, if you want to solve it locally. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jun 12 10:52:41 2017 Received: (at 26299) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jun 2017 14:52:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43597 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dKQht-0003XF-Ko for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 10:52:41 -0400 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:49365) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dKQhs-0003Wy-5C for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 10:52:40 -0400 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v5CEqWsG028674 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 12 Jun 2017 14:52:33 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v5CEqWrV020783 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 12 Jun 2017 14:52:32 GMT Received: from abhmp0009.oracle.com (abhmp0009.oracle.com [141.146.116.15]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v5CEqVVn006291; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 14:52:31 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <48fb0fc5-e622-4f38-bf5d-22f7874db429@default> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 07:52:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: =?utf-8?B?UkU6IGJ1ZyMyNjI5OTogMjQuNTsgVXNlIG9mIGDigKYnIGluIEluZm8=?= References: <70f7b182-ca55-499c-8afe-6bd4aef370a1@default> <877f373004.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <474e169d-6f2e-440b-b968-22d091e59600@default> <2ee7f2fb-2d2e-4c1b-8c0f-4700330d967c@default> <83efup5lnr.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83efup5lnr.fsf@gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6767.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26299 Cc: 26299@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > Dunno whether you want a separate bug report for this, but here > > is a related problem that is even worse, IMO: The character > > RIGHTWARDS ARROW FROM BAR (#x421) is no good in Info, at least > > in some fonts. It is too narrow. Previously Emacs used `=3D=3D>' > > instead of that char. See attached screenshot, where the font > > is (for some reason): > > -outline-MS Gothic-normal-normal-normal-mono-14-*-*-*-c-*-jisx0208*-* > > The font for the rest of the chars in that screenshot is: > > -outline-Lucida Console-normal-normal-normal-mono-14-*-*-*-c-*-iso8859-= 1. > > Don't ask me why Emacs uses that font for that char - I have no > > idea. (And yes, to Eli's typical response to questions about > > fonts for odd chars, I do have Symbola installed. But Emacs > > doesn't seem to use it, here.) >=20 > Granted, I cannot reproduce this. I tried on 2 systems, and on both > this character (whose codepoint is #x21a6, btw, not #x421) is > displayed using Symbola. >=20 > Does this happen for you in "emacs -Q" as well? If not, can you tell > what customizations related to fonts or faces do you have that could > cause this? >=20 > If "emacs -Q" shows the same problem, then I guess it's some issue > related to what fonts you have installed (e.g., could it be that your > Symbola is outdated and doesn't cover that character?) or something > like that. I could propose a couple of solutions if that is the case, > if you want to solve it locally. OK, sorry for some noise. The character is fine in Emacs 25.2.1, both in emacs -Q and with my setup. And the font is Symbola in both. The problem is apparently in Emacs 24.5. (And yes, the char is 0x21A6, in both releases.) The problem exists in 24.5 for both emacs -Q and my setup. And the font is the same in both - the font I showed earlier (MS Gothic...jisx0208). The problem was apparently introduced in Emacs 24.5, when that char was used for the first time, here. It was apparently fixed in 25.1. (HTH in some way, but probably it does not.) From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jun 12 11:09:30 2017 Received: (at 26299) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jun 2017 15:09:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43607 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dKQyA-0003wc-4g for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 11:09:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42880) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dKQy8-0003wM-BA for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 11:09:28 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dKQxz-0005o5-UM for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 11:09:23 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:47440) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dKQxz-0005o0-Rb; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 11:09:19 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3465 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dKQxz-0005GG-3a; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 11:09:19 -0400 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 18:09:08 +0300 Message-Id: <834lvl5jl7.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: <48fb0fc5-e622-4f38-bf5d-22f7874db429@default> (message from Drew Adams on Mon, 12 Jun 2017 07:52:30 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#26299: 24.5; Use of =?utf-8?Q?`=E2=80=A6'?= in Info References: <70f7b182-ca55-499c-8afe-6bd4aef370a1@default> <877f373004.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <474e169d-6f2e-440b-b968-22d091e59600@default> <2ee7f2fb-2d2e-4c1b-8c0f-4700330d967c@default> <83efup5lnr.fsf@gnu.org> <48fb0fc5-e622-4f38-bf5d-22f7874db429@default> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26299 Cc: 26299@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 07:52:30 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: npostavs@users.sourceforge.net, 26299@debbugs.gnu.org > > The character is fine in Emacs 25.2.1, both in emacs -Q and with > my setup. And the font is Symbola in both. > > The problem is apparently in Emacs 24.5. Ah, okay, that explains everything: we've changed the default fontset in Emacs 25.1 to use Symbola for punctuation and symbol characters. In earlier versions you'd need to set up the fontset to do that in your customizations. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jun 12 11:18:53 2017 Received: (at 26299) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jun 2017 15:18:53 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43614 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dKR7F-0004Bf-20 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 11:18:53 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:39141) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dKR7C-0004BQ-Er for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 11:18:50 -0400 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v5CFIg3T006996 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 12 Jun 2017 15:18:42 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v5CFIgcS002841 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 12 Jun 2017 15:18:42 GMT Received: from abhmp0009.oracle.com (abhmp0009.oracle.com [141.146.116.15]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v5CFIfF7001598; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 15:18:41 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:18:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: =?utf-8?B?UkU6IGJ1ZyMyNjI5OTogMjQuNTsgVXNlIG9mIGDigKYnIGluIEluZm8=?= References: <70f7b182-ca55-499c-8afe-6bd4aef370a1@default> <877f373004.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <474e169d-6f2e-440b-b968-22d091e59600@default> <2ee7f2fb-2d2e-4c1b-8c0f-4700330d967c@default> <83efup5lnr.fsf@gnu.org> <48fb0fc5-e622-4f38-bf5d-22f7874db429@default> <834lvl5jl7.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <834lvl5jl7.fsf@gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6767.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26299 Cc: 26299@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > The character is fine in Emacs 25.2.1, both in emacs -Q and with > > my setup. And the font is Symbola in both. > > > > The problem is apparently in Emacs 24.5. >=20 > Ah, okay, that explains everything: we've changed the default fontset > in Emacs 25.1 to use Symbola for punctuation and symbol characters. > In earlier versions you'd need to set up the fontset to do that in > your customizations. Thanks for the explanation. And I see now, in the 25.1 NEWS, this item: ** New variable 'use-default-font-for-symbols', for backward compatibility= . This variable allows you to get back pre-Emacs 25 behavior where the font for displaying symbol and punctuation characters was always selected according to your fontset setup. By default, Emacs 25 tries to use the default face's font for such characters, if it supports them, disregarding the fontsets. Set this variable to nil to disable this and get back the old behavior. I guess that explains it (though I would have expected also a NEWS item about the behavior change, separate from that item mentioning a new variable). From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jun 12 12:56:48 2017 Received: (at 26299) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jun 2017 16:56:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43906 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dKSe0-000450-9b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:56:48 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:46493) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dKSdy-00044o-W5 for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:56:47 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dKSdq-0001rZ-Rl for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:56:41 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:52792) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dKSdq-0001rV-Lx; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:56:38 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:3581 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1dKSdp-00056W-UC; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:56:38 -0400 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 19:56:26 +0300 Message-Id: <83vao1401x.fsf@gnu.org> From: Eli Zaretskii To: Drew Adams In-reply-to: (message from Drew Adams on Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:18:40 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: bug#26299: 24.5; Use of =?utf-8?Q?`=E2=80=A6'?= in Info References: <70f7b182-ca55-499c-8afe-6bd4aef370a1@default> <877f373004.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <474e169d-6f2e-440b-b968-22d091e59600@default> <2ee7f2fb-2d2e-4c1b-8c0f-4700330d967c@default> <83efup5lnr.fsf@gnu.org> <48fb0fc5-e622-4f38-bf5d-22f7874db429@default> <834lvl5jl7.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26299 Cc: 26299@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) > Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 08:18:40 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: npostavs@users.sourceforge.net, 26299@debbugs.gnu.org > > And I see now, in the 25.1 NEWS, this item: > > ** New variable 'use-default-font-for-symbols', for backward compatibility. > This variable allows you to get back pre-Emacs 25 behavior where the > font for displaying symbol and punctuation characters was always > selected according to your fontset setup. By default, Emacs 25 tries > to use the default face's font for such characters, if it supports > them, disregarding the fontsets. Set this variable to nil to disable > this and get back the old behavior. That's related, but not the same issue as what I was talking about. This variable is relevant when the default face's font can display a symbol or punctuation character. That is not your case, so in your case this variable and the change in code which it disables are not relevant. As for the change in the default fontsets, it was done to better adapt Emacs to the fonts that are usually installed on user machines, and there's no reasonable way to describe the effect without knowing what fonts are installed and which one is used for the default face. So that change is not in NEWS. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Mon Jun 12 13:13:59 2017 Received: (at 26299) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jun 2017 17:13:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43932 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dKSuc-0004Tj-Oa for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 13:13:58 -0400 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:35344) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dKSub-0004TU-P2 for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 13:13:58 -0400 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v5CHDobh017571 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 12 Jun 2017 17:13:51 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v5CHDoag005544 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 12 Jun 2017 17:13:50 GMT Received: from abhmp0009.oracle.com (abhmp0009.oracle.com [141.146.116.15]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v5CHDm4l016222; Mon, 12 Jun 2017 17:13:49 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 10:13:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams To: Eli Zaretskii Subject: =?utf-8?B?UkU6IGJ1ZyMyNjI5OTogMjQuNTsgVXNlIG9mIGDigKYnIGluIEluZm8=?= References: <70f7b182-ca55-499c-8afe-6bd4aef370a1@default> <877f373004.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <474e169d-6f2e-440b-b968-22d091e59600@default> <2ee7f2fb-2d2e-4c1b-8c0f-4700330d967c@default> <83efup5lnr.fsf@gnu.org> <48fb0fc5-e622-4f38-bf5d-22f7874db429@default> <834lvl5jl7.fsf@gnu.org> <83vao1401x.fsf@gnu.org> In-Reply-To: <83vao1401x.fsf@gnu.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6767.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26299 Cc: 26299@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > That's related, but not the same issue as what I was talking about. > This variable is relevant when the default face's font can display a > symbol or punctuation character. That is not your case, so in your > case this variable and the change in code which it disables are not > relevant. >=20 > As for the change in the default fontsets, it was done to better adapt > Emacs to the fonts that are usually installed on user machines, and > there's no reasonable way to describe the effect without knowing what > fonts are installed and which one is used for the default face. So > that change is not in NEWS. OK, thanks for that additional info. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Sep 28 23:21:50 2019 Received: (at 26299) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Sep 2019 03:21:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51834 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iEPmP-0004Vn-RZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Sep 2019 23:21:50 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f170.google.com ([209.85.215.170]:35317) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iEPmL-0004VI-0x for 26299@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 28 Sep 2019 23:21:46 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f170.google.com with SMTP id a24so5465123pgj.2 for <26299@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 28 Sep 2019 20:21:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IRTd9Fc462XaErZNEdl0n1pEkFQARd0dgy3LGU+MFGc=; b=oYab5MzT9Vhgv8Ez17zEHJNbDxRg1T1Q2doudTXHWjuerwfmvodx9EtKy45QHEll0M tWGHkpXW/iKzh1PtKYIuDlYU9CHgMbLU7S0QQotW+2XO8lhakcrCOtrDtk0MoDdhlAl0 QENfpaieivD4QW+UE3wBO39t/JddRCGn20vVSR8K3rWdSEuCKE4Hx3o/uA78ITvbSoyE bXF8NRY4QlU+m7YrdpLk1bux+hwpIuu4UrnXv9yvFHXxUep4sLvgtqtmp/AoPXmmgf/E ubO3AiQfEeYamxu0L0jwJj+lryzDTkFVDkRS6xFP5+m8QuOoY5hGn3bZKC74zo+IStKB l5+A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW6LXhgaScBKvhejV/vbUeDxcabWsFqqGP7whxCENcXud1zsOWf CZt0m5f5d/tz7UlQ7ciOhBWUpPB9I/Jyk+qBkC0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwNFD/C6sm9FTK7sdfI064jay6LgpBmq/DxY7CobdBkMlZpcZqTtRHqksqGqoyJA/qljnxvINhb/PLTFW4xBUo= X-Received: by 2002:a62:e917:: with SMTP id j23mr13962368pfh.50.1569727299325; Sat, 28 Sep 2019 20:21:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Stefan Kangas Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 05:21:28 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IGJ1ZyMyNjI5OTogMjQuNTsgVXNlIG9mIGDigKYnIGluIEluZm8=?= To: Drew Adams Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 26299 Cc: 26299@debbugs.gnu.org, Noam Postavsky X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) tags 26299 + notabug close 26299 quit Drew Adams writes: >> > Maybe Emacs needs to work around the problem (if it can't be >> > fixed). Maybe if Emacs uses `. . .' instead of `...' that >> > will stop Texinfo from messing with it. >> > >> > (Why would Texinfo have a blanket treatment of ... as =E2=80=A6? >> > That makes no sense at all. What if the occurrence of ... >> > is part of code, and NEEDS to be 3 period chars?) >> >> Emacs' .texi files use @dots{} in these cases, as (strongly) >> recommended by the texinfo manual: >> >> An ellipsis (a sequence of dots) would be spaced wrong when typeset = as >> a string of periods, so a special command is used in Texinfo: use th= e >> @dots{} command to generate a normal ellipsis, which is three dots i= n >> a row, appropriately spaced =E2=80=A6 like so. To emphasize: do not = simply >> write three periods in the input file; that would work for the Info >> file output, but would produce the wrong amount of space between the >> periods in the printed manual. >> >> I found this thread [1] requesting plain "..." for @dots{} in makeinfo >> output; there seemed to be no opposition, but I guess it didn't >> happen. Perhaps try pinging bug-texinfo@gnu.org? > > Thanks for checking on this, Noam. I will leave it to Emacs > maintainers to decide whether to ping bug-texinfo. I reported > the complaint as one Emacs user. Dunno what Emacs Dev will > decide is the desired behavior. I know what I prefer. Info displays three dots ("...") rather than ellipsis in the manual on my system, which has texinfo 6.5.0. So it would seem like texinfo has reverted this change? In any case, this is not an Emacs bug, so I'm closing this as notabug. Best regards, Stefan Kangas From unknown Wed Jun 25 05:38:57 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 11:24:15 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator