From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2017 18:45:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: report 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 25627@debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.14863202871709 (code B ref -1); Sun, 05 Feb 2017 18:45:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Feb 2017 18:44:47 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56876 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1caRnq-0000RV-Vo for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2017 13:44:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:36323) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1caRnp-0000RI-2m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2017 13:44:45 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1caRnj-0008WG-7S for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2017 13:44:39 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:46539) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1caRnj-0008W5-4s for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2017 13:44:39 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55525) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1caRni-0002C1-0f for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2017 13:44:38 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1caRne-0008TQ-4O for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2017 13:44:38 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:31196) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1caRnd-0008T2-Qh for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2017 13:44:34 -0500 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v15IiVB5003453 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 5 Feb 2017 18:44:32 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v15IiVSt010173 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 5 Feb 2017 18:44:31 GMT Received: from abhmp0004.oracle.com (abhmp0004.oracle.com [141.146.116.10]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v15IiUdg017816 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 2017 18:44:31 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 10:44:29 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6753.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.5 (---) `help-make-xrefs' in `help-mode.el' calls `cl-some', which is defined in `cl-extra.el' as an autoload. Should we really be loading `cl-extra.el' now, as soon as a user does, for example, `C-h f'? In that case, what is really "extra" about it (for interactive use of Emacs, at least)? I thought that the point of creating `cl-lib.el' was to give people a library of the most-used CL constructs and still let them avoid loading all of `cl.el'. If we are, in effect, loading `cl-extra.el' now nearly by default then what's the point of separating out `cl-lib.el'? Is this use of `cl-some' perhaps just due to laziness? It's not hard to get the same effect without using it and loading `cl-extra.el'. In GNU Emacs 25.1.1 (x86_64-w64-mingw32) of 2016-11-15 Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601 Configured using: `configure --without-dbus --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-O2 -static -g3'' From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2017 19:26:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: 25627@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.14863227035411 (code B ref 25627); Sun, 05 Feb 2017 19:26:02 +0000 Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Feb 2017 19:25:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56909 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1caSQo-0001PD-OX for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2017 14:25:02 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:23791) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1caSQm-0001Oc-Oc for 25627@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2017 14:25:01 -0500 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v15JOssm024084 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for <25627@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 5 Feb 2017 19:24:54 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v15JOsY1025486 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for <25627@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 5 Feb 2017 19:24:54 GMT Received: from abhmp0004.oracle.com (abhmp0004.oracle.com [141.146.116.10]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v15JOr1h000687 for <25627@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 5 Feb 2017 19:24:54 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2017 11:24:52 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> In-Reply-To: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6753.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) It's also not clear to me why replacing the 3 `cond' clauses used previously by the clause that uses `cl-some' is TRT (an improvement). Seems to me like a degradation (bug), but I don't have a test case. Was that done to fix some bug? The previous code was able to in some cases determine that the symbol is a face or that it is a variable or that it is a function. That was replaced by the simple `cl-some' clause, which just treats it as a symbol (producing all possible help for it). If that's the approach, why not just do that in all cases? It looks like someone came up with `describe-symbol-backends' for some other purpose and decided it could be reused here: only the second element of each 3-element list entry is used here. Could you please state the rationale behind this change, even if that is not directly related to this bug, which is about unnecessarily loading `cl-extra.el'. Thx. These are the 3 `cond' clauses that were replaced by the generic `cl-some' clause: ((and (facep sym) (save-match-data (looking-at "[ \t\n]+face\\W"))) (help-xref-button 8 'help-face sym)) ((and (or (boundp sym) =09 (get sym 'variable-documentation)) (fboundp sym)) ;; We can't intuit whether to use the ;; variable or function doc -- supply both. (help-xref-button 8 'help-symbol sym)) ((and (or (boundp sym) (get sym 'variable-documentation)) (or (documentation-property sym 'variable-documentation) (documentation-property (indirect-variable sym) 'variable-documentation))) (help-xref-button 8 'help-variable sym)) ((fboundp sym) (help-xref-button 8 'help-function sym))))))) From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: npostavs@users.sourceforge.net Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 00:58:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 25627@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.148642903112057 (code B ref 25627); Tue, 07 Feb 2017 00:58:02 +0000 Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2017 00:57:11 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58171 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cau5n-00038O-KC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2017 19:57:11 -0500 Received: from mail-io0-f194.google.com ([209.85.223.194]:33405) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cau5l-00038B-Ns for 25627@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2017 19:57:10 -0500 Received: by mail-io0-f194.google.com with SMTP id 101so11380397iom.0 for <25627@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 06 Feb 2017 16:57:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=HUnHWvAz1F/EdDURbMCMn/vAe7u0YyhvE1IP1DQ6Ixc=; b=UvrVn7f1JN5wXOo8qwJQScnRVlb6A84pMTPGic8alGrDvONukbXIVfJtqQvSbC7+RA pN2WTmSbHH1/qJwmySoBT35vyBzgLJrk5X/XtwHWSV11Y3KfJ9dPY3GTBckJ2z938t3U hWnsvrGvp4FOL0lpi+ApvE0xgCIv8D4B/EiiU3mvFQyCe1BTVvRSLQiU54fwYhvVuNvy gEogtRoKW5YGpzn+jT+12obAGc8H1DqrfmVWv4H1kFGznheQGxAIx0IZE4FcLuNYXq73 yP4dgVb8/jfgXbMDrJo5NELQv3GuJ4m45WW7L5BeKoLMvcMypgq8xmiYx54Tu9/UEzIg OvtA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=HUnHWvAz1F/EdDURbMCMn/vAe7u0YyhvE1IP1DQ6Ixc=; b=RDZEw6WImpG61Ik+CqK9bFuTitORF2veXlwnlo9XFuLSp23Wz5vjqt+a8ZvYQp9aL4 MW2yImZB78+bYV5EcmCJ64eiQyNwsr0bYo+fPpM6ho2hL0HaOWJau9J2M+zgaJOsAYtt ARvlSEiPQ17KVSnhns78vcaJJCYgCpLvY1lQUsOn8k8NHxa1xWrG/N01y1ipESpX0xhW bPsxvDHCEVsby8XmFJI3nmTHhYdtOiwAR/nC1VXdXSmVOboiKfDZ4PFrT4ifjgRHjUAT OJ98L2iJzbLAcjg/v7pv6MRnEMQDRmGfcpM5ib/zH2tCwD/8f4oMek/63Zqd3JBscFkG B8GQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39nb+Yiklhiepkw789JQvcN3Onc+Qeez+buJYrEidPralhFY3kJHMh6SiKtZCbYQBQ== X-Received: by 10.107.18.12 with SMTP id a12mr2245089ioj.155.1486429024090; Mon, 06 Feb 2017 16:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from zony ([45.2.7.65]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id d10sm5167266itd.9.2017.02.06.16.57.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Mon, 06 Feb 2017 16:57:03 -0800 (PST) From: npostavs@users.sourceforge.net References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2017 19:58:12 -0500 In-Reply-To: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 5 Feb 2017 10:44:29 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) Drew Adams writes: > I thought that the point of creating `cl-lib.el' was to give people a > library of the most-used CL constructs and still let them avoid loading > all of `cl.el'. If we are, in effect, loading `cl-extra.el' now nearly > by default then what's the point of separating out `cl-lib.el'? AFAIK, the point of cl-lib is to have the CL constructs in a separate namespace, so that loading cl-lib doesn't change the semantics of existing code that might not expect it (unlike cl.el). This change was done by [1: 59b5723c9b], the commit message is a bit terse. But it looks like the idea is to use `describe-symbol-backends' for this in order to make it extendable, specifically to let cl-extra add an entry for classes. 1: 2015-07-07 02:14:16 -0400 59b5723c9b613f14cd60cd3239cfdbc0d2343b18 Add online-help support to describe types From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 02:23:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: npostavs@users.sourceforge.net Cc: 25627@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.148643412819827 (code B ref 25627); Tue, 07 Feb 2017 02:23:01 +0000 Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2017 02:22:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58188 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cavPz-00059j-Ou for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2017 21:22:07 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:43371) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cavPx-00059C-Pw for 25627@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 06 Feb 2017 21:22:06 -0500 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v172LwoI004636 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 7 Feb 2017 02:21:59 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v172LwFO002513 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 7 Feb 2017 02:21:58 GMT Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v172LuOa023153; Tue, 7 Feb 2017 02:21:57 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 18:21:54 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> In-Reply-To: <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6753.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) > > I thought that the point of creating `cl-lib.el' was to give people a > > library of the most-used CL constructs and still let them avoid loading > > all of `cl.el'. If we are, in effect, loading `cl-extra.el' now nearly > > by default then what's the point of separating out `cl-lib.el'? >=20 > AFAIK, the point of cl-lib is to have the CL constructs in a separate > namespace, so that loading cl-lib doesn't change the semantics of > existing code that might not expect it (unlike cl.el). What part of `cl.el' changes the semantics of existing [non-cl.el] code? It too uses prefix `cl-', for exactly the reason of not changing things. OK, there are some aliases, such as `case' for `cl-case'. But I thought that such was the case only for situations where Emacs without cl.el did not have such a function/macro/etc. - such as `case'. It is true that there is also stuff in cl.el that IMO does not belong there, because it is not a Common-Lisp emulation. Stuff like `lexical-let'. Such stuff should be elsewhere. There is also stuff that was misguidely given the `cl-' prefix which has no counterpart in Common Lisp. (I've pointed that out to emacs-devel, but no one seemed to care...) It is also the case that there is stuff that has the same name as Common Lisp stuff but which is a very poor emulation of it and should not use the C-L name. An example is `flet'. This is a really good example of something bad. Its doc string even tells you that if you want something closer to Common Lisp use `cl-flet'. Unlike, e.g., `case' and `cl-case', `flet' is not an alias of `cl-flet' (nor should it be). Aside from such messes (and there are a bunch), I think that cl.el, like cl-lib.el, separates its stuff from non-cl.el stuff in Emacs. I don't think there are cases of changing semantics. (But if there are, those should be fixed.) At any rate, this bug report is about `cl-extra.el'. It has long been considered, rightfully, as _extra_ stuff. (And it is not loaded by loading `cl.el'.) If you take a look at what is in it then I think you'll agree that it is hardly stuff that needs to be loaded by default. And when I say "loaded by default" I speak loosely, including the case of a user using `C-h f' and - whoops! - suddenly cl-extra gets loaded. That should not happen. And it certainly should not happen just because someone wanted to use `cl-some'. That use case is such a trivial one to code in other ways. The only reasons I can think of for someone using `cl-some' here are ignorance (that it is defined in cl-extra.el, laziness, or I-don't-care. > This change was done by [1: 59b5723c9b], the commit message is a bit > terse. But it looks like the idea is to use `describe-symbol-backends' > for this in order to make it extendable, specifically to let cl-extra > add an entry for classes. Yes, I see what `cl-some' is used for, here. But even if one wants to do what is done with `describe-symbol-backends' (which IMO has a bad name and whose addition didn't gain us anything, but that's OK), there is no need to use `cl-some' to do it. One can use `describe-symbol-backends' easily without `cl-some' (as I know you realize). > 1: 2015-07-07 02:14:16 -0400 59b5723c9b613f14cd60cd3239cfdbc0d2343b18 > Add online-help support to describe types To be clear, my objection is not to the change that makes use of `describe-symbol-backends'. It is to the gratuitous use of `cl-some' which pulls in cl-extra by an autoload. No need; not good. From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 13:32:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 25627@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.148647428128403 (code B ref 25627); Tue, 07 Feb 2017 13:32:02 +0000 Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2017 13:31:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58453 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cb5rd-0007O2-MF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 08:31:21 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:55122) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cb5rb-0007Nm-BF for 25627@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 08:31:19 -0500 Received: from drachen.dragon ([88.67.111.141]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb102 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MX0UC-1cyAf42iO4-00W0rF; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 14:30:54 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 14:30:53 +0100 In-Reply-To: <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 6 Feb 2017 18:21:54 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: <871svam8ky.fsf@drachen> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:f2YoQwmJ0ItRkWMEJ7vcFWVXOd3QaE+sdY8//WGLTmJTq4ZGL7R +AgQfHySEy50dRkLfFNi9CLcTs409211PLGYO9VZ5/xVhoqtrPLo6/UrYggYGAsYz2ULwQH 9zztctDcLm8r1Wf0Nbw06D6Jcrn/0S0UE2vRjZBsXhN/xPQl0OtnPudoLgUU8aPQhRLDaz+ 4T1VvM/73FA4XYe37e/5A== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:wka5uTGr1CQ=:ZoBEW8Km5MNrcpxkI10wDE xK28OtcNfw1TBhxMMPF270kImHwpWQg41SXefagsSdjFQX9vshQ66oLXVjbcxW2UEAvLaClsC RPMVFa969+qGr9JcWrhRHy6YqNq7dqgzsdYHKaCpMv0BrO1ky3o3rEmoYP8/qf54yBH/o7FY9 xM3BQR7cN1tNppvB/8FCRgBGQb5C+sfD7dNB/inTlszP8tmPMz0ag60jXcYBBGY0cbSTwV9Kw +VQdWoLZn/xBD7t8WVlr9DTYha8o9m5aDQr1vjmWid5ILi9rwphrzIGIXr1onvurwnGQYiK6s blbB0YAuldJeBLJp+shG79wPFwfp1dz+E1KgVoviMDf6shLyjATjqN33MPzUbuGhoaWX+IyV5 /bdvQlPWJp5YMzkxkChg3qtOKQPP9AEKWZkt5NazC+inek42W61AwPy77N/pXtxiKYSO5eEpQ KX6oE/CLQh8voQQoYYJh5gAyDP9bXtKbaIUQu4c9PoviJorOB/6Vhxn1v3zRRtOZhYKHoSsp7 alxyV4pLVLh/dx7Ha+1ZU11dS6Ln+4x4CwL0aPNpXK4aM/NoBMBmqvl1aHPm18HKzr9xmnKn+ 2JCD8HMK1EFlBoRmtUzA6SGsYBWFye5brXv1LdQWJNNo78KmUdiKRp49P0r1R3vp3sKJf8WyB wyhcdnNzthlEGM2MYSWzLXdFy4706CANVmzttm3Q6FrUOZGcX1Ypsnd1yjB0OeFIz8r5iMu3s PYwOXtFacf3Gix7D1URIYh53mmUhpE0QPAMtmj14MhxFZgrnulGy0BkdhSaAotxx5ccYS0CBS e1yL0yA X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Drew Adams writes: > OK, there are some aliases, such as `case' for `cl-case'. But I > thought that such was the case only for situations where Emacs > without cl.el did not have such a function/macro/etc. - such as > `case'. Doesn't cl.el define more than 170 of such aliases? Michael. From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 16:14:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Michael Heerdegen Cc: 25627@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.148648400311602 (code B ref 25627); Tue, 07 Feb 2017 16:14:01 +0000 Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2017 16:13:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59169 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cb8OR-000314-11 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 11:13:23 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:50138) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cb8OO-00030g-VL for 25627@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 11:13:21 -0500 Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v17GDEFr032408 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 7 Feb 2017 16:13:14 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v17GDD4A027557 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 7 Feb 2017 16:13:14 GMT Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v17GDB49003564; Tue, 7 Feb 2017 16:13:12 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <43f576ea-c0e3-453d-a73e-804e890bef9b@default> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 08:13:10 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> <871svam8ky.fsf@drachen> In-Reply-To: <871svam8ky.fsf@drachen> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6753.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > OK, there are some aliases, such as `case' for `cl-case'. But I > > thought that such was the case only for situations where Emacs > > without cl.el did not have such a function/macro/etc. - such as > > `case'. >=20 > Doesn't cl.el define more than 170 of such aliases? Dunno, and I don't really care. The number is not so important. What can be problematic is if such an alias _clashes_ with a different construct of the same name for Emacs without cl.el. I also said: > > Aside from such messes (and there are a bunch), I think that > > cl.el, like cl-lib.el, separates its stuff from non-cl.el > > stuff in Emacs. I don't think there are cases of changing > > semantics. (But if there are, those should be fixed.) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ But again, this bug report is about cl-extra.el, not cl.el. The single use of `cl-some' here is gratuitous. There is no good reason that I'm aware of why a commonly used help function should use `cl-some'. There are a zillion simple ways to do the same thing that is done by `cl-some' here. If this is not fixed (and even if it is, alas), the door is open for any number of such abuses. The direction that leads is just inclusion of cl.el (or similar that has the same effect). Emacs Dev has not decided to include cl.el by default. If it does, then OK, it does. But in that case a different restructuring and probably some other name-change rationalization will also be needed. This bug and its fix are simple - trivial even. You could even use `cl-loop', no doubt. That's a macro, so no problem. (Of course, fixing it without using anything `cl-*' is also simple.) I see no reason why anyone would not want this fixed. Especially considering that if the flood gates are opened to all cl*.el constructs then there will be a certain amount of adjusting to do - both for Emacs Dev (cleanup, factoring, whatever) and for users. From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 17:20:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: 25627@debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.148648797117688 (code B ref 25627); Tue, 07 Feb 2017 17:20:02 +0000 Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2017 17:19:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59213 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cb9QR-0004bD-Ax for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 12:19:31 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:58266) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cb9QP-0004ay-Eg for 25627@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 12:19:29 -0500 Received: from drachen.dragon ([88.67.111.141]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb004 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MQL8O-1d0Z8O0lFE-00To0L; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 18:19:04 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> <871svam8ky.fsf@drachen> <43f576ea-c0e3-453d-a73e-804e890bef9b@default> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 18:19:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: <43f576ea-c0e3-453d-a73e-804e890bef9b@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 7 Feb 2017 08:13:10 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: <87efz9udfc.fsf@drachen> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:FuJ6/BVqZmArI8Xamp9X/NbAFkBx19/42CAkZAxnIksdiQAOl4I G18XspYDrFXebdJYBwNLqApx8gsFI+kJ+SFFiHTkuSRT78Sea9ECdsc2uDPWktYPogUH0tN oXi3Sr3VQP7rugHrFGV6RPg4+YqwjlFOtHBnXBX6ogtLnTVJgBw1OL/hk1ItMpNplV3hqvT Hxl+rGMepILE17hDsCovw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:pK51ZO2hJT0=:upYdyKN0C7j9F8QEUSGfda 03ZgXsqLf0nsMelfopVMcsnH8gmjoPiX8k5GhlvuszeJmVLSAVV4blXamt4OltGRF6eLne1Xh 7kFogNI+nSBABMYaRI4KIYrY9KybRtOND3Xs8O9Pp31U8EoH0PMqK1LKoqo9M4Ku2lV4eXgTJ JTqBTkwDZo2/ksR5c+xI5ASY/pNrXFiC3/Py9U2CjMzNxyRbdN1+CNpQGDksz3hxGQDiVx8ww CAQKDwNYfoCiQYi8tX8BuTYuF5nDru0GWfzbi5TiGzFWjCVliAE0REJPrLklEIzSVwY9fXl5B 7cxQpC7G+IV4ipJM0a68JQdAasrU1tnBdt0WReRVXtVC2eDbJWD0kfyAhOb9MaBX36EiVzrjW lwI0KHc6Enw+gxCt9uqkg5QzYCaCVkDf6U9gUxxwVR/sPntQqrIbxPFZeJUzoMm8h7DTeF5Wc mMArzeJFBwNMWwtbClB9A20o0Pn4MupuJQVcjiqHMkpNEZY9XhpjT8Knt7OCs08vX5GgAZ21M 6GyY5C4OdBQGfgIUsr6/dDUOhcefV9dLEbrsRXTppv+jk9T7mextdyNJVW0eBXbkKcg778Cuq +BhfdVXrprQG2+b+KDvGP6FMPrrvJP3mpXbVW45nE7jtEPANrWYiuVMcK9jvsplJYenic/nW2 E2W2xzx8dG9X6VBiw6bHUIwvyqMxChB71pzbhjiqAMgZErznwP0lL2drL5+dEhqX5DdTuQaXW sWzKvj7JW3vDyoZ2boE+CpVc0Y+V+0aPLZnQrhPZFDrPcB45VdUluBLlcTdcrWmLgnicrda9Y qQ5e40H X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) Drew Adams writes: > But again, this bug report is about cl-extra.el, not cl.el. > The single use of `cl-some' here is gratuitous. There is > no good reason that I'm aware of why a commonly used help > function should use `cl-some'. There are a zillion simple > ways to do the same thing that is done by `cl-some' here. Yes, it would probably not be wrong to avoid it in this case. Michael. From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: Philipp Stephani Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 22:30:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams , npostavs@users.sourceforge.net Cc: 25627@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.148650659619670 (code B ref 25627); Tue, 07 Feb 2017 22:30:02 +0000 Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2017 22:29:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59365 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbEGp-00057C-Ne for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 17:29:55 -0500 Received: from mail-oi0-f53.google.com ([209.85.218.53]:36529) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbEGn-00056y-85 for 25627@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 17:29:53 -0500 Received: by mail-oi0-f53.google.com with SMTP id u143so73232457oif.3 for <25627@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 14:29:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=l85n2ghD7O9ksGwHJU7Ad4O6c31UDtxO0AWi90PNBYs=; b=FeSVeJjbYbko/HWMwZGR9TuQLNGdYjAsN2e5w7ykw2qalEKu5vASvXjoKz5E6MTcSN nKsQsqlNF4PEsgs/joecYtmHueW6LA5DA/ixRRXoSai0P688jehXFQdINOwfDQnQSOXo lKVVCsmkQHcXi2kMcFbYFhOBz2x4eCDfolMkM4yq6z5toDrtOU4glilHWvSYIkkH4v5p 18NYxjwGxEJNXNqx5Fwruj4ypjRvt171Hm4SWMsU2Upx6EsVuyyynSDWD1svMNosLdRI lNaMFitBPxFisVtSJyxf7f7f7YTanDhHjp4jY/GQk2tj930I0wn4Pb5udhjHFuL00cuh +6Hw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=l85n2ghD7O9ksGwHJU7Ad4O6c31UDtxO0AWi90PNBYs=; b=FC3r51DYDoxBXpiwyQLblpskD6NZBinIrIzfEaGgJOKV41tzOhlB06OQ9uQSp6JvxC HoyKTx85U8ToZdw/Pkwjt4Wj0WmvcwbuxEhCZdqHMSo0KcPKjB2hUPfPi125gwVxIDiX K0dezECaWXQGlEu+yDo3bRPXZuomGAikxjDhrxtqbRALzmMSCJkni3tHtgtBA7BgN5/s j4y48pAYpvRQiGRLC133E9KFLLFHp6AbDyLxBXZgnArX2pnoIXSJGyrUqbhWKXXjUnA1 8kRKp265q5Dy2nOsc/XsfmNhCFuP88+qRwXyz9tmsmS7QF3rEmUWFhTcCLxBFOF+vkZk dtTw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39m/7xwJMkrdey2MQKyMP8HaACpnZuD44XWxCtPjKLibOy0HUED5VZQmFw3G9EekO7jegM1VsSP+89rFWg== X-Received: by 10.202.87.211 with SMTP id l202mr8337565oib.112.1486506587570; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 14:29:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> In-Reply-To: <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> From: Philipp Stephani Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 22:29:36 +0000 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ac6b61bcb1d0547f849e8 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) --001a113ac6b61bcb1d0547f849e8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Drew Adams schrieb am Di., 7. Feb. 2017 um 03:23 Uhr: > > > I thought that the point of creating `cl-lib.el' was to give people a > > > library of the most-used CL constructs and still let them avoid loading > > > all of `cl.el'. If we are, in effect, loading `cl-extra.el' now nearly > > > by default then what's the point of separating out `cl-lib.el'? > > > > AFAIK, the point of cl-lib is to have the CL constructs in a separate > > namespace, so that loading cl-lib doesn't change the semantics of > > existing code that might not expect it (unlike cl.el). > > What part of `cl.el' changes the semantics of existing [non-cl.el] > code? Loading cl.el modifies the observable behavior of dolist. For example, insert the following into /tmp/dolist.el: ;;; -*- lexical-binding: t; -*- (eval-when-compile (require 'cl-lib)) (message "Without cl.el") (cl-dolist (i '(1 2 3)) (dolist (j '(a b c)) (message "i = %s, j = %s" i j) (when (= i 2) (cl-return)))) (message "\nWith cl.el") (eval-when-compile (require 'cl)) (cl-dolist (i '(1 2 3)) (dolist (j '(a b c)) (message "i = %s, j = %s" i j) (when (= i 2) (cl-return)))) And then run: $ emacs -Q -batch -l /tmp/dolist.el Without cl.el i = 1, j = a i = 1, j = b i = 1, j = c i = 2, j = a With cl.el i = 1, j = a i = 1, j = b i = 1, j = c i = 2, j = a i = 3, j = a i = 3, j = b i = 3, j = c --001a113ac6b61bcb1d0547f849e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Drew A= dams <drew.adams@oracle.com= > schrieb am Di., 7. Feb. 2017 um 03:23=C2=A0Uhr:
> > I thought that the point of creating `cl-lib.el= ' was to give people a
> > library of the most-used CL constructs and still let them avoid l= oading
> > all of `cl.el'.=C2=A0 If we are, in effect, loading `cl-extra= .el' now nearly
> > by default then what's the point of separating out `cl-lib.el= '?
>
> AFAIK, the point of cl-lib is to have the CL constructs in a separate<= br class=3D"gmail_msg"> > namespace, so that loading cl-lib doesn't change the semantics of<= br class=3D"gmail_msg"> > existing code that might not expect it (unlike cl.el).

What part of `cl.el' changes the semantics of existing [non-cl.el]
code?

Loading cl.el modifies the observable= behavior of dolist.=C2=A0 For example, insert the following into /tmp/doli= st.el:

;;; -*- lexical-binding: t; -*-
(= eval-when-compile (require 'cl-lib))
(message "Witho= ut cl.el")
(cl-dolist (i '(1 2 3))
=C2= =A0 (dolist (j '(a b c))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message "i =3D %= s, j =3D %s" i j)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (when (=3D i 2) (cl-return))= ))
(message "\nWith cl.el")
(eval-when-co= mpile (require 'cl))
(cl-dolist (i '(1 2 3))
=C2=A0 (dolist (j '(a b c))
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (message &quo= t;i =3D %s, j =3D %s" i j)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (when (=3D i 2) (cl= -return))))

And then run:

$ emacs -Q -batch -l /tmp/dolist.el=C2=A0
Without cl.el
i =3D 1, j =3D a
i =3D 1, j =3D b
i =3D 1, j =3D= c
i =3D 2, j =3D a

With cl.el
i =3D 1, j =3D a
i =3D 1, j =3D b
i =3D 1, j =3D c
i =3D 2, j =3D a
i =3D 3, j =3D a
i =3D 3, j =3D= b
i =3D 3, j =3D c
--001a113ac6b61bcb1d0547f849e8-- From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 23:01:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Philipp Stephani , npostavs@users.sourceforge.net Cc: 25627@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.148650845722559 (code B ref 25627); Tue, 07 Feb 2017 23:01:02 +0000 Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2017 23:00:57 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59385 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbEkr-0005rm-17 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 18:00:57 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:37601) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbEkp-0005rW-84 for 25627@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 18:00:55 -0500 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v17N0mpG014447 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 7 Feb 2017 23:00:48 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v17N0mbs006922 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 7 Feb 2017 23:00:48 GMT Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v17N0lRr021724; Tue, 7 Feb 2017 23:00:47 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3abd0b72-e875-4c07-bdc2-4aa62de2c55e@default> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 15:00:46 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6753.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) >> > > I thought that the point of creating `cl-lib.el' was to give people = a >> > > library of the most-used CL constructs and still let them avoid load= ing >> > > all of `cl.el'.=C2=A0 If we are, in effect, loading `cl-extra.el' no= w nearly >> > > by default then what's the point of separating out `cl-lib.el'? >> > >> > AFAIK, the point of cl-lib is to have the CL constructs in a separate >> > namespace, so that loading cl-lib doesn't change the semantics of >> > existing code that might not expect it (unlike cl.el). >> >> What part of `cl.el' changes the semantics of existing [non-cl.el] >> code? > > Loading cl.el modifies the observable behavior of dolist. Yes, such is legacy. See what I wrote about needing to fix such problems (name clashes). The fact that plain Emacs `dolist' is massaged to make it DTRT for cl.el under that same name is wrong. And then cl-macs.el leverages that advice for `cl-dolist'. The Emacs emulation of Common-Lisp `dolist' should be called (only) `cl-dolist' - or else the Emacs thing by that name should be renamed to something else. Emacs has generally opted to co-opt some names for its own version of a behavior, instead of giving the Emacs version a different name. Because of that we should not allow a Common-Lisp emulation of such a thing use the same name. It should use the `cl-' prefix, since the unprefixed name is already taken. Aliasing (or doing something that has the same effect, as for `dolist') the plain name to the name with prefix `cl-' is the wrong thing to do, in such cases. We should alias to remove prefix `cl-' only when the result is not a name clash. But again, this bug report is about unnecessarily autoloading `cl-extra.el'. It is not about `cl.el'. From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: Noam Postavsky Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 23:09:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Philipp Stephani , 25627@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.148650892123362 (code B ref 25627); Tue, 07 Feb 2017 23:09:02 +0000 Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2017 23:08:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59402 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbEsL-00064j-8U for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 18:08:41 -0500 Received: from mail-ot0-f195.google.com ([74.125.82.195]:33016) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbEsK-00064W-1J for 25627@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 18:08:40 -0500 Received: by mail-ot0-f195.google.com with SMTP id f9so15998421otd.0 for <25627@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 15:08:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=6eyaJgnV69oP7vQJhP8lT5BbKDr2Ojc38lYeVRGiOzU=; b=UnHLSVLckGhRgYRqSPRhwFi8wGmh2caYdnT6CbeE6Q8/AaKEfGeKcCJpCK5Ugq7NDR SoilnYgXbasFGOBPH6LPSVSyYdLfVGD6qufPrMdP/iKlQv1NP1/BsRepCGScMpnNo25t HpNJEeG/hVPCPHlrFzGz0nSnHkfDtFgQUE3Yi/4sPw5gQYEPU63AEs0VrT9JzPmmHHwZ 8RC00MSJk9uYvDm/ju7DKoS8+6Adz1TvAlXwjN38MpKcSC8fvB9WjewKzoUX4+XHK2C3 1FmpYT9xe0lE5shu75NS3k8rOFYyXL4RQNtMdeTzNWZ24FgQkNxn3z8kjR45Lofi/pBF tvUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6eyaJgnV69oP7vQJhP8lT5BbKDr2Ojc38lYeVRGiOzU=; b=Y8Szj64UOx2cxHxeatxfC1wXUOmM79igEOzO67GbSotaLluSgvNv31cvOkFMXbsvWT tn9Umu/WpHCJ8UI9seDG1QIo8F87b5AF8VP7POm1ju0OAxr1vTxHZiSFjaZPCXDhJhSO doRQ5mTNfn4uSAS3qsRUiCn3dLcRiYHptvzZfE4m/BzgZ76kKxRLtjXfm6zr9SSBXJyG UYqgbXeI0lSntwlFr1MxAYYfYjHIXNNn4aIk4l81R6QqbjrzPhEEmZbJryD+/Wo+Tyg8 i6/QAYq/ww3q+fVPSQLIg65zYKNGzOASwqz4SbJmI+kc+X9e0RQ+NiGE5bgyFR5vKzGl HB0g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKA0GpaSGqZk3O2cF1ucb9JW5WaSz7WtuS0DYnyV+9eu1+XdBvMI6huMPldNNeen+pvPM6V2I+m3tSQuA== X-Received: by 10.157.37.209 with SMTP id q75mr10311373ota.267.1486508914545; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 15:08:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.21.117 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Feb 2017 15:08:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3abd0b72-e875-4c07-bdc2-4aa62de2c55e@default> References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> <3abd0b72-e875-4c07-bdc2-4aa62de2c55e@default> From: Noam Postavsky Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 18:08:33 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: alxFhwunur-bNIIC5F5mRQzt4zI Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > The Emacs emulation of Common-Lisp `dolist' should be called > (only) `cl-dolist' This is exactly what cl-lib.el does. cl.el does the wrong thing, which is why its use is discouraged. > > But again, this bug report is about unnecessarily > autoloading `cl-extra.el'. It is not about `cl.el'. Does the fact that cl-extra sets byte-compile-dynamic help with your concerns at all? byte-compile-dynamic is a variable defined in `bytecomp.el'. [...] Documentation: If non-nil, compile function bodies so they load lazily. They are hidden in comments in the compiled file, and each one is brought into core when the function is called. [...] From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2017 00:19:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Noam Postavsky Cc: Philipp Stephani , 25627@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.148651309629486 (code B ref 25627); Wed, 08 Feb 2017 00:19:02 +0000 Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2017 00:18:16 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59412 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbFxf-0007fW-PN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 19:18:15 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:18695) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbFxe-0007fI-C2 for 25627@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 19:18:14 -0500 Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v180I7Gn006398 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 8 Feb 2017 00:18:08 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v180I75s015040 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 8 Feb 2017 00:18:07 GMT Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v180I7kk021880; Wed, 8 Feb 2017 00:18:07 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <0c0b574f-880d-4b99-9e14-6c4b29cab1f4@default> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 16:18:05 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> <3abd0b72-e875-4c07-bdc2-4aa62de2c55e@default> In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6753.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) > > The Emacs emulation of Common-Lisp `dolist' should be called > > (only) `cl-dolist' >=20 > This is exactly what cl-lib.el does. cl.el does the wrong thing, > which is why its use is discouraged. Agreed, as far as that goes. But `dolist' is an exception (it is the only one, though). There are _relatively_ few such name clashes. > > But again, this bug report is about unnecessarily > > autoloading `cl-extra.el'. It is not about `cl.el'. >=20 > Does the fact that cl-extra sets byte-compile-dynamic help > with your concerns at all? ... > byte-compile-dynamic is a variable defined in `bytecomp.el'. Yes, I think it does. I wasn't aware of this feature. >From (elisp) `Dynamic Loading' it appears that there is no bug here. If you think so too then please close. Why don't more (even most) of the files distributed with Emacs have this variable set (to non-nil)? Searching the Emacs 25.1 distributed Lisp files, I find only these that use the variable: dired-aux.el dired-x.el wdired.el wid-edit.el calendar.el cl-extra.el cl-lib.el cl-macs.el cl-seq.el sendmail.el executable.el pcvs-util.el Why (only) those? From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: npostavs@users.sourceforge.net Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2017 01:56:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Drew Adams Cc: Philipp Stephani , 25627@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.14865189305451 (code B ref 25627); Wed, 08 Feb 2017 01:56:01 +0000 Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2017 01:55:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59431 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbHTm-0001Pm-9B for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 20:55:30 -0500 Received: from mail-it0-f50.google.com ([209.85.214.50]:35194) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbHTj-0001PU-Q9; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 20:55:28 -0500 Received: by mail-it0-f50.google.com with SMTP id 203so90761237ith.0; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 17:55:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=gctorU2PnXk/TtcsBibzRxut8eRhWGv9HW7cbHSNX/g=; b=f31+MTAZQB8GnsTdDRtos8h6UfICUoa4ikrL711GIKcnZjYzin1gfHvRp5WClXJemq IUQfTuUDOrh452XbkP7qMoM7VLSB6EVgK96T6eCVzOSAeQ2ezMUZFw7EVui4tDLScKoo 2Gra5HYBaxat9+jBszRU0HEbjCTLs4bDjejhiN/2mTTsACrULQj9RcnhHLw322B/Bal3 i4Mtig/fWU6cXlq6AB+kOADE8N7bz4FQkqdRKtPhnPIaTcOrVPv/QpYfz4eLkM6Hpewz Zhi3oAeQQAyBiBvxMp+9xkjkHUuHy12qFi6Q1/9leQmpN9N+EbXTKY5MI3qEHbopyfpX 2UfA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=gctorU2PnXk/TtcsBibzRxut8eRhWGv9HW7cbHSNX/g=; b=CnrhKw11sc3JYtRaUhSOrmPCw+645mhnfOMmsZTpqNeFj/kzlEFcmphiDI32j7gOUn M684AsMwMkiYXe2uuGhKfdJA4675jaLFxW93NoubSbMtio9KAUaTmWGPPiOFYywHqV1l 1pFMJvIolAhV+ePbD/HDs+dX1mSMDlayRtk8HTGnxCfzJcfsxhFtSE7LbeuzhL52NItN hUmZv5Y1KgCTR5GF8Sz31rHQu2VyFybBIYyBxGbltRSvitwqtNmN7eBhX2MHxWUhJr0d lsJI/Jhup98aFuQ/uqEHZVolBDpJ3GpKI5tCTcyFVdvfwZ7kAMcBcMEFHVVrBvV9r68W xn/A== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIaj57nOdmotMoHd1ihNR+r6/sWwHhrPgm+fC6NqoN6H5St6mhpq9FY/+YIf/C9DQ== X-Received: by 10.36.138.70 with SMTP id v67mr13165737itd.42.1486518922253; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 17:55:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from zony ([45.2.7.65]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id d143sm10550910iod.18.2017.02.07.17.55.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Tue, 07 Feb 2017 17:55:21 -0800 (PST) From: npostavs@users.sourceforge.net References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> <3abd0b72-e875-4c07-bdc2-4aa62de2c55e@default> <0c0b574f-880d-4b99-9e14-6c4b29cab1f4@default> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 20:56:29 -0500 In-Reply-To: <0c0b574f-880d-4b99-9e14-6c4b29cab1f4@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 7 Feb 2017 16:18:05 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: <87a89xo376.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.2 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.2 (/) tags 25627 notabug close 25627 quit Drew Adams writes: > >> > But again, this bug report is about unnecessarily >> > autoloading `cl-extra.el'. It is not about `cl.el'. >> >> Does the fact that cl-extra sets byte-compile-dynamic help >> with your concerns at all? ... >> byte-compile-dynamic is a variable defined in `bytecomp.el'. > > Yes, I think it does. I wasn't aware of this feature. > > From (elisp) `Dynamic Loading' it appears that there is > no bug here. If you think so too then please close. > > Why don't more (even most) of the files distributed with > Emacs have this variable set (to non-nil)? Loading functions one by one can be slower than loading them all at once. Some justification would be needed for adding this (e.g., if a file contains many independent functions that would usually be used in isolation). From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2017 02:01:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: npostavs@users.sourceforge.net Cc: Philipp Stephani , 25627@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.14865192045943 (code B ref 25627); Wed, 08 Feb 2017 02:01:01 +0000 Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2017 02:00:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59438 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbHYB-0001Xa-T5 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 21:00:04 -0500 Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:24061) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbHY9-0001WN-Dg for 25627@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 21:00:02 -0500 Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v181xsfr012154 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 8 Feb 2017 01:59:55 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v181xsgr017318 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 8 Feb 2017 01:59:54 GMT Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v181xsL4028497; Wed, 8 Feb 2017 01:59:54 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <6cb3cd2a-e972-4542-b85a-7c3d0f18e097@default> Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 17:59:53 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> <3abd0b72-e875-4c07-bdc2-4aa62de2c55e@default> <0c0b574f-880d-4b99-9e14-6c4b29cab1f4@default> <87a89xo376.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> In-Reply-To: <87a89xo376.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6753.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) > > Why don't more (even most) of the files distributed with > > Emacs have this variable set (to non-nil)? >=20 > Loading functions one by one can be slower than loading them all at > once. Some justification would be needed for adding this (e.g., if a > file contains many independent functions that would usually be used in > isolation). Yes, I read that. A guess would be that that would be the case for many more files than the few that use it now. Files could also be split, to factor out functions for which that is true. From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: npostavs@users.sourceforge.net Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2017 04:57:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: Drew Adams Cc: Philipp Stephani , 25627@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.14865297759641 (code B ref 25627); Wed, 08 Feb 2017 04:57:02 +0000 Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2017 04:56:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59566 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbKIh-0002VR-5W for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 23:56:15 -0500 Received: from mail-io0-f172.google.com ([209.85.223.172]:33252) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbKIe-0002VB-N5 for 25627@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 23:56:13 -0500 Received: by mail-io0-f172.google.com with SMTP id v96so107730680ioi.0 for <25627@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 20:56:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=AZzMuQlrbP1WL9mnUNwFBq7yOPU77Tx6GtqD+tPHiIE=; b=rWSAQ+7ldBHAp8t0WzAXAjqbEgEVRkNG8zyw03gfSgAvku85Zy6lwIkfgLAOmjrbSS +bPkDJbjWcDH2HQlTF+qlkOK10nwZsHBpYz1oTzxz2IDt79+xF0qakqa3ikBoaiTgvuX dEPfHBbJ4cUh8SlabHZyd33l7qE+2Q/c2SKD2JhETX2egL+/j6lC4AKu/5gOaMLBQnqI MjsWdefJ6iZCKxC1Pn+LIliVJ/XQ29+YVAd/j1iXnaPY+yKsatiujFLLfnKchgzmYZma mBGgagJbVIqE8Yzs9iIaTW9NqB4DUrqDaJD9bP+GRn4dbMciSRa9y5zL1h/lnymsP30p q82A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=AZzMuQlrbP1WL9mnUNwFBq7yOPU77Tx6GtqD+tPHiIE=; b=rvOfY9oYnwzxtgNquoZy0UQdOE9tACUFDqFSqPhaQZ/yviBynTxpjerM7q0Uloi2nH P9YHJ/XwS2IwQrqk7W4Y9wndrRFav2b17eX85Gx8rxR/LygdeJ8+VTQmq0o8adFcAfjB WcoG++4605MUyfalWitKzK2oJUugey/yGbmXOdd5wlICVOdMeSV5LnvTgTcmP0KISo1O 5DsXeRt7hGucKSMtopDzy1rd3WAUgURyVnbXd1DRKGrf/gLWjrU8e0Wthm+MS3s2ACTV DVNPSznRfFaozdQ6Ax2qr4ECCLUapd/Poo84VzsC3yU+7EQl0fqAzZ4LvnLIFmP+6cuT hkpA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lBCr4nkBT13h5PHXPCff8YVSvX5geRSIEm6+zoMZDZTWN7PrFiWx01nx0QDNk0BQ== X-Received: by 10.107.7.78 with SMTP id 75mr8531940ioh.165.1486529767230; Tue, 07 Feb 2017 20:56:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from zony ([45.2.7.65]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id j74sm10740150iod.44.2017.02.07.20.56.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Tue, 07 Feb 2017 20:56:06 -0800 (PST) From: npostavs@users.sourceforge.net References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> <3abd0b72-e875-4c07-bdc2-4aa62de2c55e@default> <0c0b574f-880d-4b99-9e14-6c4b29cab1f4@default> <87a89xo376.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <6cb3cd2a-e972-4542-b85a-7c3d0f18e097@default> Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 23:57:16 -0500 In-Reply-To: <6cb3cd2a-e972-4542-b85a-7c3d0f18e097@default> (Drew Adams's message of "Tue, 7 Feb 2017 17:59:53 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: <87y3xhmg9f.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) Drew Adams writes: >> > Why don't more (even most) of the files distributed with >> > Emacs have this variable set (to non-nil)? >> >> Loading functions one by one can be slower than loading them all at >> once. Some justification would be needed for adding this (e.g., if a >> file contains many independent functions that would usually be used in >> isolation). > > Yes, I read that. A guess would be that that would be the case > for many more files than the few that use it now. > > Files could also be split, to factor out functions for which > that is true. Possibly, but I would guess the benefits of doing this would be rather tiny. I mean, the best we can hope for is to save a few hundred kilobytes of RAM, right? From unknown Sat Sep 06 04:31:34 2025 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#25627: 25.1; `help-make-xrefs' loads `cl-extra.el' now Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2017 05:42:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 25627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug To: npostavs@users.sourceforge.net Cc: Philipp Stephani , 25627@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 25627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B25627.148653246320570 (code B ref 25627); Wed, 08 Feb 2017 05:42:01 +0000 Received: (at 25627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2017 05:41:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59572 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbL02-0005Li-Pk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2017 00:41:02 -0500 Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:31252) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cbL01-0005L6-A9 for 25627@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2017 00:41:01 -0500 Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v185esfi029613 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 8 Feb 2017 05:40:54 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v185erJU008288 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 8 Feb 2017 05:40:54 GMT Received: from abhmp0004.oracle.com (abhmp0004.oracle.com [141.146.116.10]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v185erVs029824; Wed, 8 Feb 2017 05:40:53 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 21:40:51 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams References: <82c8d359-fd05-4bff-9dba-29d2738d435d@default> <87d1euolzv.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <5f457952-82ca-4a77-8061-1b2e366fcfb2@default> <3abd0b72-e875-4c07-bdc2-4aa62de2c55e@default> <0c0b574f-880d-4b99-9e14-6c4b29cab1f4@default> <87a89xo376.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> <6cb3cd2a-e972-4542-b85a-7c3d0f18e097@default> <87y3xhmg9f.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> In-Reply-To: <87y3xhmg9f.fsf@users.sourceforge.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 12.0.6753.5000 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) > >> > Why don't more (even most) of the files distributed with > >> > Emacs have this variable set (to non-nil)? > >> > >> Loading functions one by one can be slower than loading them all at > >> once. Some justification would be needed for adding this (e.g., if a > >> file contains many independent functions that would usually be used in > >> isolation). > > > > Yes, I read that. A guess would be that that would be the case > > for many more files than the few that use it now. > > > > Files could also be split, to factor out functions for which > > that is true. >=20 > Possibly, but I would guess the benefits of doing this would be rather > tiny. I mean, the best we can hope for is to save a few hundred > kilobytes of RAM, right? Why is it more important for (all of) the files where it has been done than for other libraries where there are multiple, essentially independent pieces (including independent commands)? What about things like org, calc, gnus? If it helps to do it to something like calendar, an (uninformed) guess would say it might help to do it to libraries like those. Org, in particular, has lots of different kinds of stuff in it. I'd imagine there are bits that are relatively independent. Just guessing.