From unknown Thu Jun 19 14:00:16 2025 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.509 (Entity 5.509) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: bug#24926 <24926@debbugs.gnu.org> To: bug#24926 <24926@debbugs.gnu.org> Subject: Status: ls-quotes: ls output has been made ugly Reply-To: bug#24926 <24926@debbugs.gnu.org> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 21:00:16 +0000 retitle 24926 ls-quotes: ls output has been made ugly reassign 24926 coreutils submitter 24926 Michael Schwager severity 24926 normal thanks From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 11:35:56 2016 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 16:35:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54120 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5Enz-0000bW-Va for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 11:35:56 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53272) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5E6e-0007x4-CN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:51:08 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1c5E6X-0002NL-Pm for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:51:03 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,HTML_MESSAGE, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:52139) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1c5E6X-0002NA-Fd for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:51:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44221) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1c5E6V-0003QU-QX for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:51:01 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1c5E6U-0002Le-21 for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:50:59 -0500 Received: from mail-it0-x231.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::231]:38528) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1c5E6T-0002KJ-IT for bug-coreutils@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:50:57 -0500 Received: by mail-it0-x231.google.com with SMTP id q124so129521543itd.1 for ; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 07:50:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=schwager-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ST7AOHjGgcqlF2aU/NBeF0U8N8hEsJv4Q1y9FSbI2RY=; b=c4s8PEH7BzLGD4EPV6Igwrmh+25GmOGcGuiouFhZDwW/ILKtBmAIXK9LPTdFxPrQij rvsqQEUxks1uABvL6bN1De+MkUU5Je9rDZ1lvmjtjxc2Uyu0WF0DCvboM644xAxh6K5x Nm4T3iTQeg/sv2ITYK/TncwRQ3UvgzckeiJCEPAnq/aBsMzU8EAQtzqIwysI6gbrEIFE 9Zv/3YielLEaeam5ZIY9ZQ03P4COFYBPzJ7AbV2g6S1ZC9Z8Xj36Tw6JJR2gjT5Ua8Qw Lj2stk/7B5goPmW1WR69rn6RqfrA4tyqvhfZA7w/4+PpHxGaNugVm0tLfIhQ+5F9b8LW qDUw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ST7AOHjGgcqlF2aU/NBeF0U8N8hEsJv4Q1y9FSbI2RY=; b=aoaSsJCf9AJDYthPyvvF1JesMiVekAm0ZTajsxYoK6mWA1hw0IIw3s12Vk9aWqjhj8 CHToOPZifthBKOusn6lKcVs/ye1e1IltJGeZF76Nzk0qklvmuvNN5nvWUS+mcWq3qc5F TREDnYV2nYCmVkeNb58BmLfSPQlmJZFJo8V6jxgc64qP+LT1KXeeDNg3DUzI46rKXAMF 8qaP2FB+F6sc2oIYIOSe2jHwztEqu0B7LBIlmRvJg8c3pWbYPnLosSQE3qVxCBfnqb0q XEvtO1Q3PQPJnbFmSCfXaLO+V938khGCSWM2YQPDLfMqwipR1xOUEYLPfXid/nwiV9bl ZqbQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvf/ZIy+oYGGQu5+tTxB+6JYx78AbT0uRd2XQJNIMS7PONZK5Hz1hcQj4IIU169V9CD8Q94lWM3QE2BIjA== X-Received: by 10.107.11.81 with SMTP id v78mr12674674ioi.20.1478879454946; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 07:50:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.172.132 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 07:50:54 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schwager Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 09:50:54 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: ls output has been made ugly To: bug-coreutils@gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fb33094403c054108745e X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 11:35:55 -0500 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) --001a113fb33094403c054108745e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "...we don't mean to dictate, only to improve things" -P=C3=A1draig Brady Feb 15 at 20:46 Somebody went and dictated ls' new behavior, and now my files with spaces look really really ugly. I just upgraded to Fedora 24 which has the new ls. I rsync'ed my music from my old hard drive to my new one and noticed spurious characters. I was looking around, trying to find out what I did wrong/what it meant/etc. I don't have single quotes in many of my filenames, although I do in some. Look at this directory listing: AWOLNation 'Joe Jackson' 'Cage the Elephant' 'Joy Division' 'Calabria 2008' 'Joy Division-All Gods Angels Beware.m3u' 'Carly Rae Jepsen' 'Joy Division-Joy Division The Peel Sessions 10 Dec 79.m3u' 'Cat Power' 'Joy Division-The Peel Sessions Unreleased Tracks.m3u' 'Culture Club' 'Katy Perry' 'Cyndi Lauper' 'Laura Branigan' 'Daft Punk' Offspring That is just plain ugly. Don't you think I can see the spaces in my filenames? What do those quotes do but add cruft? Who thinks they know better than I do? How was this decision made? (that's a rhetorical question, I don't want an answer because I've read the arguments and I think it's a really bad idea.) Who ever thinks that what you get is not what is actually there is ever a good idea??? Yes, you can opt out. This is akin to what email spammers have been teling us for years about tracking us and sticking ads in our inboxes. That "Hey, no problem- you can always opt out..." Even if you can (and there are some legitimate sites out there that will opt you out), the point is that you should not stick your choices into people's faces. Offer up the alternative... don't create an alternative, then say "Now you get it because I say so. Don't like it? You can always change it back..." That's insulting. --=20 -Mike Schwager --001a113fb33094403c054108745e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
&qu= ot;...we don't mean to dictate, only to improve things" -P=C3=A1draig Brady Feb 15 at 20:46

Somebody went and dictated ls' new behavior, and n= ow my files with spaces look really really ugly.

I just upgraded to Fedora 24 which has the new= ls. I rsync'ed my music from my old hard drive to my new one and notic= ed spurious characters. I was looking around, trying to find out what I did= wrong/what it meant/etc. I don't have single quotes in many of my file= names, although I do in some.

Look at this directory listing:
AWOLNation=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 'Joe Jackson&= #39;
'Cage the Elephant'=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 'Joy Division'
'Calabria 2008'=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 'Joy Division= -All Gods Angels Beware.m3u'
'Carly Rae Jepsen'=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 'Joy Division-Joy Division= =C2=A0 The Peel Sessions 10 Dec 79.m3u'
'Cat Power'=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 'Joy Division-The Peel Sessions Unreleased Tracks.m3u'=
'Culture Club'=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 'Katy Perry'
'Cyndi Lauper= 9;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 'Laura Branigan'
'Daft Punk'=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Offspring

That is just plain ugly. Don't you think I can see the spaces in my = filenames? What do those quotes do but add cruft? Who thinks they know bett= er than I do? How was this decision made? (that's a rhetorical question= , I don't want an answer because I've read the arguments and I thin= k it's a really bad idea.) Who ever thinks that what you get is not wha= t is actually there is ever a good idea???

Yes, you can opt out. This is akin to what email spammers have been teling us fo= r years about tracking us and sticking ads in our inboxes. That "Hey, = no problem- you can always opt out..." Even if you can (and there are = some legitimate sites out there that will opt you out), the point is that y= ou should not stick your choices into people's faces. Offer up the alte= rnative... don't create an alternative, then say "Now you get it b= ecause I say so. Don't like it? You can always change it back..." = That's insulting.

--
-Mike Schwager

--001a113fb33094403c054108745e-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 13:26:23 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 18:26:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54201 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5GWt-0003Fu-0D for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:26:23 -0500 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:60472) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5GWr-0003Fe-Qt for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:26:22 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E397160079; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:26:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id 53vZkmTbytRH; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:26:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626F616007A; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:26:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id AQ5UkLqQnKzd; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:26:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (unknown [47.153.178.162]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 42DD9160079; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:26:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly To: Michael Schwager , 24926@debbugs.gnu.org References: From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:26:15 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) Michael Schwager wrote: > Don't you think I can see the spaces in my filenames? Not in general, no. For example: $ ls --quoting-style=3Dliteral a b c $ ls 'a b' c That being said, perhaps 'ls' could quote less aggressively. If 'ls' alw= ays=20 arranges for at least two spaces between file names, for example, 'ls' do= esn't=20 need to quote a name merely because it contains a space surrounded by=20 non-whitespace characters. Come to think of it, 'ls -l' need not quote f= ile=20 names containing spaces at all. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 14:40:52 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 19:40:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54274 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5Hgy-0008QJ-N0 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:40:52 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:48600 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5Hgx-0008QB-11 for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:40:51 -0500 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id uABJeVjB087904; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 11:40:33 -0800 Message-ID: <58261EB4.2020301@tlinx.org> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 11:40:36 -0800 From: "L. A. Walsh" User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Schwager , Paul Eggert Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 Cc: bug-coreutils@gnu.org, 24926@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) Michael Schwager wrote: > I > don't have single quotes in many of my filenames, although I do in some. > --- How did this get displayed? In shell, 'foo \' bar' wouldn't be displayed correctly since you can't use backslash to escape inside a single quoted string. > That is just plain ugly. ---- Yeah, though I might use the term "noisy" as a primary adjective. :-) Paul Eggert wrote: > Michael Schwager wrote: >> Don't you think I can see the spaces in my filenames? > Not in general, no. For example: > > $ ls --quoting-style=literal > a b c ---- You must have a strange version of something -- that's not what I see: > touch 'a b' c > Ishtar:/tmp/tmp> ls a b c Ishtar:/tmp/tmp> ls --quoting-style=literal a b c Ishtar:/tmp/tmp> ls --quoting-style=shell 'a b' c Where (or under what conditions) do you see the "a, b and c" being spaced apart equally? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 14:50:22 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 19:50:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54284 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5Hq9-0000DT-QH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:50:22 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]:49970) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5Hq7-0000DE-5R for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:50:19 -0500 Received: from int-mx13.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx13.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84BFA31B308; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 19:50:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.3.116.116] (ovpn-116-116.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.116.116]) by int-mx13.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id uABJoCFr007808; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:50:13 -0500 Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly To: "L. A. Walsh" , Michael Schwager , Paul Eggert References: <58261EB4.2020301@tlinx.org> From: Eric Blake Openpgp: url=http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:50:12 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <58261EB4.2020301@tlinx.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1VsNiOmNiRfNnGPBN6covq7OWD579EgBg" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.26 X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.5.16 (mx1.redhat.com [10.5.110.29]); Fri, 11 Nov 2016 19:50:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Score: -7.9 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 Cc: 24926@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.9 (-------) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --1VsNiOmNiRfNnGPBN6covq7OWD579EgBg Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="u6h2m8N99JAB516Hbfr9XXudq4dAaNadD"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eric Blake To: "L. A. Walsh" , Michael Schwager , Paul Eggert Cc: 24926@debbugs.gnu.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly References: <58261EB4.2020301@tlinx.org> In-Reply-To: <58261EB4.2020301@tlinx.org> --u6h2m8N99JAB516Hbfr9XXudq4dAaNadD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/11/2016 01:40 PM, L. A. Walsh wrote: >> $ ls --quoting-style=3Dliteral >> a b c > ---- > You must have a strange version of something -- that's not > what I see: >=20 >> touch 'a b' c That's your problem. Paul did: $ touch 'a b' c with two spaces, not one. > Where (or under what conditions) > do you see the "a, b and c" being > spaced apart equally? When you intentionally create the spacing between a and b to match the spacing between a*b and c. --=20 Eric Blake eblake redhat com +1-919-301-3266 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org --u6h2m8N99JAB516Hbfr9XXudq4dAaNadD-- --1VsNiOmNiRfNnGPBN6covq7OWD579EgBg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: Public key at http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJYJiD0AAoJEKeha0olJ0Nqh98IAKYFOL/MmVXYgH8yW/z9WP18 aidt8YcPaDGMTsKl1aYvJh1rsdqBtnOYwv6NO/9I8rshBbXtvPRvuL8tvQpBfNTy A/kq6/WfjQYlmCEWFJ7WzyxJ/5WPDlHgMcgJe2CuY67fOJvZuq/Pm9racmCTQn2T sXh+PrBWESghk4vNyZHZCeVl7TADJ7KEyJWAgu3G7E7XZT8DEWhIh84lT9EPOEpv y+lnjA/XOSL8k+IJ6UQXfMTawLkhQE2OihuKgbXbSQQFae9TPEQF0up0mTABWnop nLWGP1/uJMN56h5jXSfLg1ACw94nxkTFhQU+vvFURPXshq8QuVxVmj06Drp52Vk= =mTtZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1VsNiOmNiRfNnGPBN6covq7OWD579EgBg-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 15:00:31 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 20:00:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54288 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5Hzz-0000St-Au for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 15:00:31 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]:56340) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5Hzx-0000Se-U1 for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 15:00:30 -0500 Received: from int-mx13.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx13.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4783B16F8D4; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:00:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.3.116.116] (ovpn-116-116.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.116.116]) by int-mx13.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id uABK0NcX018862; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 15:00:23 -0500 Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly To: Paul Eggert , Michael Schwager , 24926@debbugs.gnu.org References: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> From: Eric Blake Openpgp: url=http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Message-ID: <281fc5e6-02e1-e6b0-0ab8-36427616db21@redhat.com> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:00:23 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jaAVcn2GkiE7bcBX96wnM21NkcoXkeRVp" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.26 X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.5.16 (mx1.redhat.com [10.5.110.30]); Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:00:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Score: -7.9 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.9 (-------) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --jaAVcn2GkiE7bcBX96wnM21NkcoXkeRVp Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="xc3vA87XJ69QKdcRnsNIvXsV1hmewftRQ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eric Blake To: Paul Eggert , Michael Schwager , 24926@debbugs.gnu.org Message-ID: <281fc5e6-02e1-e6b0-0ab8-36427616db21@redhat.com> Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly References: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> --xc3vA87XJ69QKdcRnsNIvXsV1hmewftRQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/11/2016 12:26 PM, Paul Eggert wrote: > Michael Schwager wrote: >> Don't you think I can see the spaces in my filenames? >=20 > Not in general, no. For example: >=20 > $ ls --quoting-style=3Dliteral > a b c > $ ls > 'a b' c >=20 > That being said, perhaps 'ls' could quote less aggressively. If 'ls' > always arranges for at least two spaces between file names, for example= , > 'ls' doesn't need to quote a name merely because it contains a space > surrounded by non-whitespace characters. Come to think of it, 'ls -l' > need not quote file names containing spaces at all. If the idea is that the quoting is there to make copy-and-pasting into a shell command line easier, then there is nothing we can do that is less aggressive, since failing to quote spaces changes what the shell will do. If the idea is that the quoting should only be added to avoid ambiguous situations, then maybe you are right that we can add further heuristics to the quoting algorithm to disable quotes on output that is unambiguous, even if it can't be pasted back into the shell. Having two different quoting modes, where you can choose between the options, may be the way to go - but then you STILL have the problem of what to pick as the default of those two modes when neither one was explicitly request= ed. --=20 Eric Blake eblake redhat com +1-919-301-3266 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org --xc3vA87XJ69QKdcRnsNIvXsV1hmewftRQ-- --jaAVcn2GkiE7bcBX96wnM21NkcoXkeRVp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: Public key at http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJYJiNXAAoJEKeha0olJ0Nqd/gH/0h3ifnjVhwjO+Q9d0uA4WXQ DmWf47vs+++/xeuJONBWAxESuMXzy5QfbUBaHka1aAIJ4w2VCWNdfKH06zwjXq// 4MTYfBk0iaxmQybZ6fYz3YyWYSRpaPM7P2YNimNlJ8gQq17SvoPlokR90hSwas8f n/hnUEdPLmlHj6M20j0Oz5Y54GFjhd6YFnSX82eKsWrim+kqZCL0f7N68rnOHgU3 N3Ngn9cgSaM5e3cjGO3gN8TsngGq+U7NN7HNv8A4e8D5f9BR+sutiH0Zkk5gpluU Y+9UpR9hZsxovYP378vP0MgZhpDJ73zmADycjH4YTZM4VFexd7sgBnqngwwV6MA= =4ShQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jaAVcn2GkiE7bcBX96wnM21NkcoXkeRVp-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 16:00:50 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 21:00:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54305 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5IwM-0001tt-8V for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:00:50 -0500 Received: from mail-it0-f47.google.com ([209.85.214.47]:36272) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5IZe-0001M3-0r for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 15:37:22 -0500 Received: by mail-it0-f47.google.com with SMTP id q124so336883957itd.1 for <24926@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 12:37:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=schwager-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iAWaEb0PXAcMh9vG8xjIj/MUMTB0CUiTXeLuWQ0KOrg=; b=ydDcZLLOD4aSlBeB0t50PX/vLGn5jNUnoQEHpiNQgaabZmFRHBnQq0YcXtJyYrlxyP qQUETr+0rD9tcW3AS2OTKY0auzWfEKOC+mXLbS7DXQCbuzq3E6pAxraGGVGL09hgkPqo GjNS6NWVI2uUZcmJWCwriaEq5GLwtdTBb/EHSdaUdL8Q0AnRKiOVTvdebBCTLIV4v/w6 mu5RU8fDT8axePKdRUZRxtT+XWFAdVqggn2m2znv6k88YWOKacjyQk212HWqy9x99/tP A1Go8W1VGBhS7hl1JhMm7UE60znrpUh9vRMKS2ON6gHN4exVf4x7NDmD/pKTIop1NZgj 9IBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iAWaEb0PXAcMh9vG8xjIj/MUMTB0CUiTXeLuWQ0KOrg=; b=dL2Du56XFjwXNHDKXQdEJ1hgQ2dlS3K0+FFhSNFXkD7TJEycw+O7AbX8JkvAtgyABQ H4Avh0H2ZRHhUkS98oY9c5Ti2JyHFAWcI6MV+u3JWxnc/vzyJUUu3oj/BzNQjM0hh+r9 LMNERQygjh0ngUc6Wpy++M9CWVSsudURvr+NuYYJcbxC1ZoJpl4uXuuSo1rUEqJ9Yc3F zEkQSYNkvUb5zQnqcXMH6dH8ZMzsgQXdzhaTsOAGjzgLl5VJIQME/d1vxw7FhMA4+R02 njqdcdNc8gJyhQ13NPKIGzbs39mhGcdmGWFFea8FrSPCDjDu8ktCVelXZTRfj/7gFYE4 Tg9A== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngverI7ZQkLqGCD7RwLr+aQICQmZXzfWHSPfMCbsyNuwFT28TxobyXAwdvQamx6x13hBY04eGBb0ur/RwGw== X-Received: by 10.107.11.81 with SMTP id v78mr14063677ioi.20.1478896636205; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 12:37:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.172.132 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 12:37:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <281fc5e6-02e1-e6b0-0ab8-36427616db21@redhat.com> References: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> <281fc5e6-02e1-e6b0-0ab8-36427616db21@redhat.com> From: Michael Schwager Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:37:15 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly To: Eric Blake Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fb330a9283505410c7435 X-Spam-Score: -0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:00:48 -0500 Cc: Paul Eggert , 24926@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -0.2 (/) --001a113fb330a9283505410c7435 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Eric Blake wrote: > ...Having two > different quoting modes, where you can choose between the options, may > be the way to go - but then you STILL have the problem of what to pick > as the default of those two modes when neither one was explicitly > requested. > Exactly. So if you want to call ls' old behavior "broken", which I presume that one would do to justify creating this change, then your choices boil down to: - Leave decades of behavior in place, and deal with "broken" output, or - Create new, different broken output. It boggles my mind that someone decided we should have a new default. The output is not better, confusingly, the output is different depending on if you send to terminal or not, and I have not seen any great desire in the community for this change. -- -Mike Schwager --001a113fb330a9283505410c7435 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On F= ri, Nov 11, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Eric Blake <eblake@redhat.com> = wrote:
...Having two
different quoting modes, where you can choose between the options, may
be the way to go - but then you STILL have the problem of what to pick
as the default of those two modes when neither one was explicitly requested= .

Exactly. So if= you want to call ls' old behavior "broken", which I presume = that one would do to justify creating this change, then your choices boil d= own to:
- Leave decades of behavior in = place, and deal with "broken" output, or
- Create new, different broken output.

It boggles my mind that so= meone decided we should have a new default. The output is not better, confu= singly, the output is different depending on if you send to terminal or not= , and I have not seen any great desire in the community for this change.

-- <= br>
-Mike = Schwager
--001a113fb330a9283505410c7435-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 16:08:13 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 21:08:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54310 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5J3V-00024m-4A for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:08:13 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:53258 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5J3T-00024e-L8 for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:08:12 -0500 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id uABL7xFq093589; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:08:01 -0800 Message-ID: <58263335.1030200@tlinx.org> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:08:05 -0800 From: "L. A. Walsh" User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Blake Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly References: <58261EB4.2020301@tlinx.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 Cc: Paul Eggert , 24926@debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Schwager X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) Eric Blake wrote: >>> touch 'a b' c > > That's your problem. Paul did: > > $ touch 'a b' c ---- He didn't list his creation command. How would you know? > with two spaces, not one. --- You are assuming that. But if he didn't list how he created them... >> Where (or under what conditions) >> do you see the "a, b and c" being >> spaced apart equally? > > When you intentionally create the spacing between a and b to match the > spacing between a*b and c. --- Why would you intentionally create something to be confusing? ;-? Oh... to make a point and win an argument. Silly me. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 16:23:41 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 21:23:41 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54315 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5JIT-0002S0-E4 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:23:41 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]:39808) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5JIR-0002Rk-ND for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:23:40 -0500 Received: from int-mx13.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx13.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE3B861BA4; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 21:23:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.3.116.116] (ovpn-116-116.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.116.116]) by int-mx13.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id uABLNWZK018362; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:23:33 -0500 Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly To: "L. A. Walsh" References: <58261EB4.2020301@tlinx.org> <58263335.1030200@tlinx.org> From: Eric Blake Openpgp: url=http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Message-ID: <61ac0d39-3790-f638-164a-390c321f698f@redhat.com> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 15:23:32 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <58263335.1030200@tlinx.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="E6jTaKWHexDVRBrn4pED7OhAFDGtojtuA" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.26 X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.5.16 (mx1.redhat.com [10.5.110.39]); Fri, 11 Nov 2016 21:23:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Score: -7.9 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 Cc: Paul Eggert , 24926@debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Schwager X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.9 (-------) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --E6jTaKWHexDVRBrn4pED7OhAFDGtojtuA Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="dr71TDEc7hnLl2XNDuCFEbHD8Aocljvxq"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eric Blake To: "L. A. Walsh" Cc: Paul Eggert , 24926@debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Schwager Message-ID: <61ac0d39-3790-f638-164a-390c321f698f@redhat.com> Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly References: <58261EB4.2020301@tlinx.org> <58263335.1030200@tlinx.org> In-Reply-To: <58263335.1030200@tlinx.org> --dr71TDEc7hnLl2XNDuCFEbHD8Aocljvxq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/11/2016 03:08 PM, L. A. Walsh wrote: >=20 >=20 > Eric Blake wrote: >>>> touch 'a b' c >> >> That's your problem. Paul did: >> >> $ touch 'a b' c > ---- > He didn't list his creation command. How > would you know? Because that's what worked for me to reproduce his commands. >=20 >=20 >> with two spaces, not one. > --- > You are assuming that. But if he didn't list how > he created them... He didn't have to. His point was merely that with the old ls, you can have inherently ambiguous situations. Think of it as an exercise for the reader to figure out ways to get into those ambiguous situations. Knowing the pitfalls makes it easier to justify why an output that is unambiguous was chosen as the new default over the previous ambiguous output; any further changes to the default are now a matter of fine-tuning about how much (or how little) decoration we can get away with, while still avoiding a regression to the situation of ambiguous output. --=20 Eric Blake eblake redhat com +1-919-301-3266 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org --dr71TDEc7hnLl2XNDuCFEbHD8Aocljvxq-- --E6jTaKWHexDVRBrn4pED7OhAFDGtojtuA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: Public key at http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJYJjbUAAoJEKeha0olJ0Nqg6EH/0xpt7rCOfqV6yB4GWAm5w9T +24KnI/I5OShaHR6ZHisdPHw+lIjxE4RzCh4JYgtXfDlrPmz2W4UYqD1fE36kU+e HowIcWGBMzcg71zW97HyzhUzQwlwD3XxIqcfd3i0QYk8+qRyn1xTlM0wCsPXUl5l C9G2Bwi5qicwBIeqVfDL4WNoaU62d1dSoDSmUrfLYiTQ8I33/CIxrxgemKVVfHpz mi6rCikhBHAVfGG/YW39z3pU7a86RvaeYXi29ipoZisOLuoDbVe7qxRdCHHbk+QP SK4/ei+orw5//Q+QRL+3z8mhU3713TXqIqgS3QHJMtssqecdjjQsQpU62bs+8t8= =6NNe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --E6jTaKWHexDVRBrn4pED7OhAFDGtojtuA-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 16:26:04 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 21:26:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54319 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5JKl-0002Vx-RY for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:26:03 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:53902 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5JKj-0002Vf-SJ for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:26:02 -0500 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id uABLPoDY094774; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:25:53 -0800 Message-ID: <58263764.40904@tlinx.org> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:25:56 -0800 From: "L. A. Walsh" User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Blake Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly References: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> <281fc5e6-02e1-e6b0-0ab8-36427616db21@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <281fc5e6-02e1-e6b0-0ab8-36427616db21@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 Cc: Paul Eggert , 24926@debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Schwager X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) Eric Blake wrote: > > If the idea is that the quoting is there to make copy-and-pasting into a > shell command line easier, then there is nothing we can do that is less > aggressive, since failing to quote spaces changes what the shell will > do. ---- I assume you are talking about "quoting-style=shell-always" and not the conditional quoting you get for "quoting-style=shell"? > If the idea is that the quoting should only be added to avoid > ambiguous situations, then maybe you are right that we can add further > heuristics to the quoting algorithm to disable quotes on output that is > unambiguous, even if it can't be pasted back into the shell. Having two > different quoting modes, where you can choose between the options, may > be the way to go - but then you STILL have the problem of what to pick > as the default of those two modes when neither one was explicitly requested. > ---- Seems like the default is to not put quotes. That's what is used now. Why would you break it? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 16:27:29 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 21:27:29 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54323 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5JM9-0002Y6-4r for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:27:29 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:53938 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5JM7-0002Xz-LR for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:27:28 -0500 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id uABLRGlC094872; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:27:18 -0800 Message-ID: <582637BA.1090005@tlinx.org> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:27:22 -0800 From: "L. A. Walsh" User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Blake Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly References: <58261EB4.2020301@tlinx.org> <58263335.1030200@tlinx.org> <61ac0d39-3790-f638-164a-390c321f698f@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <61ac0d39-3790-f638-164a-390c321f698f@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 Cc: Paul Eggert , 24926@debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Schwager X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) Eric Blake wrote: > Knowing the pitfalls makes it easier to justify why an output that is > unambiguous was chosen as the new default over the previous ambiguous > output; any further changes to the default are now a matter of > fine-tuning about how much (or how little) decoration we can get away > with, while still avoiding a regression to the situation of ambiguous > output. --- That's bull! You don't just randomly change output in programs and break compatibility. If the user wanted unambiguous, there are already options. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 16:29:46 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 21:29:46 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54328 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5JOM-0002ba-FI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:29:46 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:54028 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5JOK-0002bR-Lb for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:29:44 -0500 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id uABLTXlt095155; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:29:35 -0800 Message-ID: <58263843.7070400@tlinx.org> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:29:39 -0800 From: "L. A. Walsh" User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Blake Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly References: <58261EB4.2020301@tlinx.org> <58263335.1030200@tlinx.org> <61ac0d39-3790-f638-164a-390c321f698f@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <61ac0d39-3790-f638-164a-390c321f698f@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 Cc: Paul Eggert , 24926@debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Schwager X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) Eric Blake wrote: > He didn't have to. His point was merely that with the old ls, you can > have inherently ambiguous situations. Think of it as an exercise for > the reader to figure out ways to get into those ambiguous situations. ---- Good communication isn't supposed to be a puzzle. Creating puzzles in order for people to get your message is, again, a way to "make points" and play games. Sorry. I was told to provide the means to reproduce my examples when reporting a problem. That wasn't done. Poor example. Justifying it as providing a puzzle for readers to solve is just another game. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 16:39:38 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 21:39:38 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54332 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5JXu-0002qz-BV for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:39:38 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]:46528) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5JXs-0002qn-NL for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:39:37 -0500 Received: from int-mx09.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx09.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AD4FC05680F; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 21:39:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.3.116.116] (ovpn-116-116.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.116.116]) by int-mx09.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id uABLdUtI004162; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:39:30 -0500 Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly To: "L. A. Walsh" References: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> <281fc5e6-02e1-e6b0-0ab8-36427616db21@redhat.com> <58263764.40904@tlinx.org> From: Eric Blake Openpgp: url=http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Organization: Red Hat, Inc. Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 15:39:29 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <58263764.40904@tlinx.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="JL7D52Sh0vin0UOgMrheflRWQJ5EF7BLF" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.68 on 10.5.11.22 X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.5.16 (mx1.redhat.com [10.5.110.32]); Fri, 11 Nov 2016 21:39:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Spam-Score: -7.9 (-------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 Cc: Paul Eggert , 24926@debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Schwager X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -7.9 (-------) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --JL7D52Sh0vin0UOgMrheflRWQJ5EF7BLF Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="v3rXheILNq8JsR3V176s1b4ThGD1Iq1g6"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eric Blake To: "L. A. Walsh" Cc: Paul Eggert , Michael Schwager , 24926@debbugs.gnu.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly References: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> <281fc5e6-02e1-e6b0-0ab8-36427616db21@redhat.com> <58263764.40904@tlinx.org> In-Reply-To: <58263764.40904@tlinx.org> --v3rXheILNq8JsR3V176s1b4ThGD1Iq1g6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/11/2016 03:25 PM, L. A. Walsh wrote: > Eric Blake wrote: >> >> If the idea is that the quoting is there to make copy-and-pasting into= a >> shell command line easier, then there is nothing we can do that is les= s >> aggressive, since failing to quote spaces changes what the shell will >> do.=20 > ---- > I assume you are talking about "quoting-style=3Dshell-always" > and not the conditional quoting you get for "quoting-style=3Dshell"? quoting-style=3Dshell-always uses quotes ALWAYS, even if the quotes are redundant. quoting-style=3Dshell uses quotes ONLY if the shell could otherwise interpret it differently without the quotes. Reusing Paul's example: $ \ls --quoting-style=3Dshell 'a b' c $ \ls --quoting-style=3Dshell-always 'a b' 'c' Note that 'a b' needed quoting under both styles, but 'c' was conditiona= l. >> If the idea is that the quoting should only be added to avoid >> ambiguous situations, then maybe you are right that we can add further= >> heuristics to the quoting algorithm to disable quotes on output that i= s >> unambiguous, even if it can't be pasted back into the shell. Having t= wo >> different quoting modes, where you can choose between the options, may= >> be the way to go - but then you STILL have the problem of what to pick= >> as the default of those two modes when neither one was explicitly >> requested. >> =20 > ---- > Seems like the default is to not put quotes. That's what > is used now. Why would you break it? Paul was suggesting _yet another mode_ (which someone would have to write patches for), which avoids quotes in all situations where the output is unambiguous (a file 'a b' is unambiguous in 'ls' output even without quotes, since the ambiguity only arises if you have two spaces; but a file 'a b' would still need quotes, as would a file that itself contains literal quotes in the name), but also pointing out that the definition of "not ambiguous" may be context sensitive (the ambiguity of plain 'ls' [two spaces, embedded newline, or something that uses the same mechanism we use for escaping the other ambiguous cases] differs from the ambiguity of 'ls -l' [embedded newline, or something that uses the same mechanism we use for escaping the other ambiguous cases], because two spaces is ambiguous in one but not the other). Personally, I think that trying hard to avoid quotes makes the addition of quotes that much more surprising when hitting the corner cases, which by their nature are already corner cases and therefore somewhat rare, so I'd rather stick with a style that is very easy to describe ("if the shell could misintepret it without quotes, add quotes; and this applies regardless of the app using this quoting rule") over one that is difficult ("if it matches potential ambiguity A, B, or C, add quotes - but now you have to learn a different list of A, B, and C for every app and context that has different ambiguities"). Furthermore, I _like_ quoting-style=3Dshell (and NOT quoting-style=3Dshell-always) in one regards: when dealing solely with file names that are declared portable according to POSIX, quoting-style=3Dshell is indistinguishable from quoting-style=3Dliteral. = It is only on file names that are already inherently non-portable to all possible file systems where the additional quotes calls my attention to the potential portability issue, whereas quoting-style=3Dalways does not have that benefit. --=20 Eric Blake eblake redhat com +1-919-301-3266 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org --v3rXheILNq8JsR3V176s1b4ThGD1Iq1g6-- --JL7D52Sh0vin0UOgMrheflRWQJ5EF7BLF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: Public key at http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJYJjqSAAoJEKeha0olJ0Nq+eMH/1sU3SCWvl1fh3Ja9KEP9tn+ uxCwxz/YJOm4jWz0N5Lofgz0qrLSlEFZQEh8tTvihcIkoOe0okgyaD2dIZ9LacAe CLRY2x7uSwfRuNYH1QhG08PHutDwI9Es5zNh075bBg0Bg3YbKqi2M7UoYSvM7O5d uAbwRUDM3ddpEyhSTslnHfjpsyC0Jd5YHOAuOVP+IYvPSxPeRE/4nmKpHGPWV9KL SRM4tws+4G0VJU/gcQxZkfUkPkTcqXMAMY4kxCAWVMp+kcL7hj5IDzrDj3pqwsAV 2nAx0EyOIiEIMJd1ekJ/qpyuChoWx/WOGTCD57XOSBKRM1DFzURPAn0ZjMRgUBU= =AmnI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --JL7D52Sh0vin0UOgMrheflRWQJ5EF7BLF-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 16:47:14 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 21:47:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54351 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5JfG-00033h-KW for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:47:14 -0500 Received: from ishtar.tlinx.org ([173.164.175.65]:54642 helo=Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5JfF-00033X-3z for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:47:13 -0500 Received: from [192.168.3.12] (Athenae [192.168.3.12]) by Ishtar.sc.tlinx.org (8.14.7/8.14.4/SuSE Linux 0.8) with ESMTP id uABLl1eE096731; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:47:03 -0800 Message-ID: <58263C5B.2080507@tlinx.org> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:47:07 -0800 From: "L. A. Walsh" User-Agent: Thunderbird MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Blake Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly References: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> <281fc5e6-02e1-e6b0-0ab8-36427616db21@redhat.com> <58263764.40904@tlinx.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 Cc: Paul Eggert , 24926@debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Schwager X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) Eric Blake wrote: > On 11/11/2016 03:25 PM, L. A. Walsh wrote: >> Eric Blake wrote: >>> If the idea is that the quoting is there to make copy-and-pasting into a >>> shell command line easier, then there is nothing we can do that is less >>> aggressive, since failing to quote spaces changes what the shell will >>> do. >> ---- >> I assume you are talking about "quoting-style=shell-always" >> and not the conditional quoting you get for "quoting-style=shell"? > > quoting-style=shell-always uses quotes ALWAYS, even if the quotes are > redundant. quoting-style=shell uses quotes ONLY if the shell could > otherwise interpret it differently without the quotes. --- I understand that. It sounded like you were talking about changing the default output to use quotes, which would be a disaster. I know of multiple scripts that use "\ls -1" to get a single column of filenames for input (assuming it is known that there are no embedded newlines in your filenames). For most people that is true. If you need more quoting, then output strings with a \00 at the end. It's the only guarantee of not being used in a filename. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 16:49:04 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 21:49:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54355 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5Jh1-00036q-V3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:49:04 -0500 Received: from vhrz24.hrz.uni-marburg.de ([137.248.1.34]:47269) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5Jh0-00036N-2I for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:49:03 -0500 Received: from [10.0.1.5] (pD9E3C0AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.227.192.171]) (authenticated bits=0) by vhrz24.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u1) with ESMTP id uABLmcIF049987 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 11 Nov 2016 22:48:41 +0100 Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Reuti In-Reply-To: <61ac0d39-3790-f638-164a-390c321f698f@redhat.com> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 22:48:37 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <58261EB4.2020301@tlinx.org> <58263335.1030200@tlinx.org> <61ac0d39-3790-f638-164a-390c321f698f@redhat.com> To: Eric Blake X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.4.1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-Null-Tag: 01424470fb70597b9588d8edaa5efb6d X-UniMR-MailScanner-Information: see http://www.uni-marburg.de/hrz/internet/mail/spam/ X-UniMR-MailScanner-ID: uABLmcIF049987 X-UniMR-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-UniMR-MailScanner-From: reuti@staff.uni-marburg.de X-Spam-Score: -5.2 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 Cc: 24926@debbugs.gnu.org, Paul Eggert , "L. A. Walsh" , Michael Schwager X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -5.2 (-----) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Am 11.11.2016 um 22:23 schrieb Eric Blake: >=20 > Knowing the pitfalls makes it easier to justify why an output that is > unambiguous Will it honor alt-space at some point? > was chosen as the new default over the previous ambiguous > output; any further changes to the default are now a matter of > fine-tuning about how much (or how little) decoration we can get away > with, while still avoiding a regression to the situation of ambiguous > output. For copy and paste you don't need quotes around alt-space, but you don't = see where it ends: $ ls --quoting-style=3Dliteral a b a b a b a b xx=20 $ ls --quoting-style=3Dshell 'a b' a b a b a b xx=20 $ ls --quoting-style=3Dshell-always 'a b' 'a b' 'a b' 'a b' ' xx ' $ ls -l total 0 - -rw-r--r-- 1 reuti staff 0 Nov 11 21:13 'a b' - -rw-r--r-- 1 reuti staff 0 Nov 11 21:13 a b - -rw-r--r-- 1 reuti staff 0 Nov 11 21:17 a b - -rw-r--r-- 1 reuti staff 0 Nov 11 21:17 a b - -rw-r--r-- 1 reuti staff 0 Nov 11 21:45 xx=20 $ ls -l --quoting-style=3Dshell-always total 0 - -rw-r--r-- 1 reuti staff 0 Nov 11 21:13 'a b' - -rw-r--r-- 1 reuti staff 0 Nov 11 21:13 'a b' - -rw-r--r-- 1 reuti staff 0 Nov 11 21:17 'a b' - -rw-r--r-- 1 reuti staff 0 Nov 11 21:17 'a b' - -rw-r--r-- 1 reuti staff 0 Nov 11 21:45 ' xx ' Personally I like only the two options to quote always (as you expect = such names) or never, but not to quote sometimes. - -- Reuti -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAlgmPLUACgkQo/GbGkBRnRoTsgCfeApMOM3wijQorhmpWX1y1cuJ YYEAn2n9j0eSzoGWLVbDmg2g8l+A1Evj =3DjqwR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 17:27:20 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Nov 2016 22:27:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54363 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5KI4-00042k-2b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:27:20 -0500 Received: from mail-it0-f41.google.com ([209.85.214.41]:38416) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5KI2-00042W-1j for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:27:18 -0500 Received: by mail-it0-f41.google.com with SMTP id q124so5285035itd.1 for <24926@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:27:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=schwager-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=pHzkb4ds7ML9eXASl9vuDskq/hPI9Dse57wl1Vtk07U=; b=NNDtm54gF5cQfu2jpbBSvKBvhMFxn37s9BPe6l76Xb6QKFxKanPihT5+zf0qtoZpe5 bpDy9DcW0ydYHfWvTLnpO7JoUYNlXTDqZKbnt8Sn6Rke/ZCcU//Lhbd1mbhqowaGBtvl 8u/VE94Yl13VTYKbswEjjtdWkaVEJJf570Fw44E4kpTMpoti/Mv+8LuV9bveAAiCsCJw 6xPiVVQo15JHWV4BlBdc2Bu1xpQKkbxqZFN5/0mBgjYWApUdcAOP2fN5dzLg3DJJ+J+U 9rzw9wWGjycXXkM+uB2biQKomLSJi4t3u8hMf/INeXcSwVp4ZyAjV2llDEwAAeZiGX2v M1tQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=pHzkb4ds7ML9eXASl9vuDskq/hPI9Dse57wl1Vtk07U=; b=HwogcVCT8bc5eab6UuI3FTiqtMbHv80p+jhyyzr+QEdIQZRAQIQpt+t6fCJOU6b1yY G8/nEt+3HFrBCiBSSAXtfIx058kskd2oLwMOv1KHG3BTd2oHVDquKII2aWJ28NTPjMcx 4000GXdjP98c3L/RSkjCoNGs1hErqEE5tiriVZ4FfeF0Qme5n5cOl+fraB+5lrHs1mKR 28IgTdfCMUFUBbObYS9Dqbk6hV0D7/fbfN8NHzzFoAvEe3UmlHBqw2N+mgKN/YWew1B0 whNZYbhrGiYx1NhzURYWEA42MhUsQfOv8oS2H36mE+0Jq9eGdC3CcbmUWFIjzF6cRnd/ 7AYA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvfLlKHUuUc+I6cdqEIrqoLCXHbM4+XxJxUKMwV1/rudng1PW0mP5/Y9OCTohyXQRy4b+lOjabKzTKJ0yw== X-Received: by 10.107.21.2 with SMTP id 2mr14951855iov.179.1478903231931; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:27:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.172.132 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:27:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> References: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> From: Michael Schwager Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:27:11 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly To: 24926@debbugs.gnu.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c05c184cbfe6e05410dfd5e X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) --94eb2c05c184cbfe6e05410dfd5e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Can anyone point me to the mailing list discussion where this originally was decided? There are legion of coreutils users out there who are dumbfounded and who detest this change; I see that Debian has reverted it. However, I (and Debian) could be wrong. I'd like to see the original discussion which will hopefully point to the well-founded reasoning for its implementation (eg, POSIX requires it, a tremendous clamour from the user community, what have you). I have searched in the mailing list but not found the original point of the decision; I don't have the proper expression foo to return it... -- -Mike Schwager --94eb2c05c184cbfe6e05410dfd5e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can anyone point me to the mailing list discussi= on where this originally was decided?

There are legion of cor= eutils users out there who are dumbfounded and who detest this change; I se= e that Debian has reverted it. However, I (and Debian) could be wrong. I= 9;d like to see the original discussion which will hopefully point to the w= ell-founded reasoning for its implementation (eg, POSIX requires it, a trem= endous clamour from the user community, what have you).

I have= searched in the mailing list but not found the original point of the decis= ion; I don't have the proper expression foo to return it...

--
-Mike Schwager
--94eb2c05c184cbfe6e05410dfd5e-- From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 19:24:56 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2016 00:24:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54378 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5M7s-0006qc-GE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 19:24:56 -0500 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:53670) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5M7q-0006qP-PN for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 19:24:55 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C605160092; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:24:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id o0HYIXTzEkQx; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C33160093; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:24:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id HdC6-V2JA_lz; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (unknown [47.153.178.162]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 228CB160092; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:24:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly To: Michael Schwager References: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> From: Paul Eggert Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <60091f22-280d-f912-8ab8-2b931895e640@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:24:47 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 Cc: 24926@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) Michael Schwager wrote: > please illustrate a real life problem In general, file names can be chosen by an adversary. This is a real-life= =20 problem for me, and for many other people (whether they know it or not). Eric Blake's arguments for leaving things alone are cogent ones. You can try to track down the design discussion by doing a git blame and = looking=20 for something on the mailing list around the time the changes were instal= led. Also, this may not be obvious, but you can avoid the ugliest part of the = quoting=20 by using the proper English-language character in your song titles. For e= xample: $ ls Groovin=E2=80=99 'Higher Ground' UB40 This works because =E2=80=99 (U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK), the or= dinary=20 character to use in the English-language title =E2=80=9CGroovin=E2=80=99=E2= =80=9D, is not subject to the=20 off-putting replacement by '\'' (also, this character avoids other proble= ms when=20 cutting and pasting into the shell). This would be better than what you h= ave=20 now. Perhaps a suggestion along these lines should be put into the coreut= ils manual? From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 20:20:44 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2016 01:20:44 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54384 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5Mzr-0008A7-Qk for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:20:43 -0500 Received: from mail.magicbluesmoke.com ([82.195.144.49]:53582) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5Mzq-00089z-ND for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:20:43 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.80] (unknown [109.79.173.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.magicbluesmoke.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5146F244; Sat, 12 Nov 2016 01:20:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly To: Paul Eggert , Michael Schwager References: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> <60091f22-280d-f912-8ab8-2b931895e640@cs.ucla.edu> From: =?UTF-8?Q?P=c3=a1draig_Brady?= Message-ID: <38476b5f-d5b5-bc76-583e-ee23308ac93e@draigBrady.com> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 01:20:38 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <60091f22-280d-f912-8ab8-2b931895e640@cs.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 Cc: 24926@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) On 12/11/16 00:24, Paul Eggert wrote: > Michael Schwager wrote: >> please illustrate a real life problem > > In general, file names can be chosen by an adversary. This is a real-life > problem for me, and for many other people (whether they know it or not). > > Eric Blake's arguments for leaving things alone are cogent ones. > > You can try to track down the design discussion by doing a git blame and looking > for something on the mailing list around the time the changes were installed. > > Also, this may not be obvious, but you can avoid the ugliest part of the quoting > by using the proper English-language character in your song titles. For example: > > $ ls > Groovin’ 'Higher Ground' UB40 > > This works because ’ (U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK), the ordinary > character to use in the English-language title “Groovin’”, is not subject to the > off-putting replacement by '\'' (also, this character avoids other problems when > cutting and pasting into the shell). This would be better than what you have > now. Perhaps a suggestion along these lines should be put into the coreutils manual? Note v8.26 will simplify the quoting when just traditional single quotes are present by using double quotes like: "Groovin'" BTW \u2019 might not be the best choice, as I tweeted recently (with corresponding quotes in each example): It's awkward for file names to use shell quote It’s awkward for word regex to use right quote Itʼs best to use apostrophe modifier (\u02BC) cheers, Pádraig. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 11 20:59:50 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2016 01:59:50 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54389 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5Nbh-0000dj-VZ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:59:50 -0500 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:33776) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5Nbg-0000dW-GX for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:59:49 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F487160092; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id 2yhHkLnDjTY8; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:59:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A1716009D; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:59:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id FKRF3L4bG9Ku; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:59:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.101] (unknown [47.153.178.162]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2F51C160092; Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:59:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly To: =?UTF-8?Q?P=c3=a1draig_Brady?= , Michael Schwager References: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> <60091f22-280d-f912-8ab8-2b931895e640@cs.ucla.edu> <38476b5f-d5b5-bc76-583e-ee23308ac93e@draigBrady.com> From: Paul Eggert Message-ID: <5ce23098-855e-1ea1-cb80-b322bcc836df@cs.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:59:40 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38476b5f-d5b5-bc76-583e-ee23308ac93e@draigBrady.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 Cc: 24926@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) On 11/11/2016 05:20 PM, P=C3=A1draig Brady wrote: > BTW \u2019 might not be the best choice, as I tweeted recently > (with corresponding quotes in each example): > > It's awkward for file names to use shell quote > It=E2=80=99s awkward for word regex to use right quote > It=CA=BCs best to use apostrophe modifier (\u02BC) But U+02BC MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE is not the right character for=20 =E2=80=9CGroovin=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D in English, as that word ends in a pun= ctuation apostrophe,=20 not a letter. If this happens to be awkward for regular expressions,we=20 should extend the regular-expression syntax to make it less awkward. From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 12 07:27:59 2016 Received: (at 24926) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Nov 2016 12:27:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54479 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5XPb-0007fz-Em for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2016 07:27:59 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:55418) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1c5XPZ-0007fD-Sx for 24926@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 12 Nov 2016 07:27:58 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.4] ([95.90.210.60]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx101 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Lmvlg-1ckNvi0BlE-00h4BZ; Sat, 12 Nov 2016 13:27:38 +0100 From: =?utf-8?q?R=C3=BCdiger_Meier?= To: 24926@debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 13:27:35 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 (enterprise35 0.20100827.1168748) References: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> <281fc5e6-02e1-e6b0-0ab8-36427616db21@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <281fc5e6-02e1-e6b0-0ab8-36427616db21@redhat.com> X-KMail-QuotePrefix: > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <201611121327.35677.sweet_f_a@gmx.de> X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:vt4+GnF/YoR1E0sVTzazpfv3IYY3hpPL+DauXGuoqPQWRfAje+x TKmVTtV4JhVpXo3TEo3xzHSUJThpCHq9lfSQgvRszz57au4DE/GivofSAnc71up3igc3b8h 96YbNx/l2Mi6TKkXwygJ/dg78ABR+rnVT5SVyePYHmLIHERuK9xfLsg3nB5F5NfaUcGnpF7 qJgHGvJJzAfb5aGnt+6Dw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:mCMRkXPYWs0=:VsMnWfBUkQIGSOkwNnmLPZ GXm2KJOeCQlca+6ytzuUFoFo2wDk6l1C0X/ef4uKBJkTLy3hXM2E0ZIZDb8V4J/6GqPt6F3tQ 3UQznUtbQ18D86Nk7Ryc/ofFEHuDzJIxt7veCChYTMWx0VVFJPXxjy3zTYK4VFot7MoRg0yRS ejBDUUvjgDtPO5aOAlR5NSP+3eS8YNzUHPhYgIkUGvzgwt5IVu1JQlDpTUxes2u3gBWvgnSD2 /2X2rDGhgevFujMbzZ1ge5ZAZNIIadNQz9ZiuTQNmEbtaJKShr5ktReHNr+yqjTUELgWpbyTJ Dhihs8GCR7BMo0K+GHuNnbJn3N27Jy0q1OT+BP2ya8ySWzGFDzLHfD7lHYGOsEe1hOu+TPUV+ 5GAL/QZ900ZJ2g/noQVfZJ/ii7ZtKpWa14Q5Y93d54PO4Mgn1SCijv8bV2AzMt08xsrGe5kgN PM/HnoHEYyylKdRE7inFe8g7XFWfjElsHvJzqwV1hZrlXfVn/Lm6W+ygpbG6GNX/DYGbe4jQF 0nxZkYMWQmyy09/gkaH7mh1lDq4Ef5DHp1lYaEA0ntkCZH6KtIMFvdOqgrlbpprpIth+Dua2D qf7gxpIsG+PBIsv/sBDrSlrlp7lgw/bdx9KZPuFLK2dml4SUj4ZoQt+bqOnkayrbxqPRux9yS HJYDX+bhTBvwjPF88P4q6eathik0ajQhjo02L4EDzYIq13HbV/nSupSTWVNTO1Er08p5JU7u3 ESkenNZddVnPb9qilVk1XhbDv95/1IMmC66N9aXlMdzLys/eMoO4M7FHdGo= X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926 Cc: Paul Eggert , Eric Blake , Michael Schwager X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On Friday 11 November 2016 21:00:23 Eric Blake wrote: > On 11/11/2016 12:26 PM, Paul Eggert wrote: > > Michael Schwager wrote: > >> Don't you think I can see the spaces in my filenames? > > > > Not in general, no. For example: > > > > $ ls --quoting-style=literal > > a b c > > $ ls > > 'a b' c > > > > That being said, perhaps 'ls' could quote less aggressively. If 'ls' > > always arranges for at least two spaces between file names, for example, > > 'ls' doesn't need to quote a name merely because it contains a space > > surrounded by non-whitespace characters. Come to think of it, 'ls -l' > > need not quote file names containing spaces at all. > > If the idea is that the quoting is there to make copy-and-pasting into a > shell command line easier, then there is nothing we can do that is less > aggressive, since failing to quote spaces changes what the shell will > do. If the idea is that the quoting should only be added to avoid > ambiguous situations, then maybe you are right that we can add further > heuristics to the quoting algorithm to disable quotes on output that is > unambiguous, even if it can't be pasted back into the shell. Having two > different quoting modes, where you can choose between the options, may > be the way to go - but then you STILL have the problem of what to pick > as the default of those two modes when neither one was explicitly > requested. The old behavior had not a problem at all. There was no need for re-thinking ls' purpose of existence, like "What is actually the idea of ls? ... if the idea is A, B or C then change X, Y or Z". What about "If most users like it as is then no need to change anything."? Most other ls other implementations still do not have any problems. coreutils ls is now an unusual one by default. We have had many nice options to _enable_ and select different quoting styles. The only problem is that the default behavior changed. However this fact is ignored since months. Maybe you should add an FAQ, like: Q: Why is ls ugly now? A: It is not just ugly but also better! Imagine if you would like to copy/paste file names! It was possible in past using extra complicated options only but now even by default. Never thought about this? Just try to copy/paste, no need to read the ls output anymore. All your experience that ls was good as is since 20 years is wrong. BTW in the next release we will copy the ls output automatically into the clipboard without printing anything into the terminal (Then nobody can complain about ugly output anymore.) cu, Rudi From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sun Oct 28 03:20:34 2018 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Oct 2018 07:20:34 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46415 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gGfNB-0003jW-PJ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Oct 2018 03:20:33 -0400 Received: from mail-io1-f54.google.com ([209.85.166.54]:40863) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gGfNA-0003jK-JM for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Oct 2018 03:20:32 -0400 Received: by mail-io1-f54.google.com with SMTP id a23-v6so3135407iod.7 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2018 00:20:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=to:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=hXgsSiXjMRixQJFd6YHgirk70RcFV96NOiauTyKt7ck=; b=ma3tBkLyC6PAJd4fZTjVt/jsgw+CPuiVwnMM+0adOJcsQx1hBK0VHSznkRc+Q4b9dm ojZ2EPgW9YqiijsGKqEKaO/XIKwsAux1g6mM9CZqWBHKe+ge590KKZt/UwIMjIsIWXzS Am0ZQOfWOF9ra1dG2GKtIbkZR62rk0HlcGB0BCrqHEKud5FMMfrwO+Z+WqVfmkpTkT1Y IMB1OTlTyXWMe4bAtNk1I1PKROqxfgh0UzaWyhSoitr43NAvslYzGAEWSZkN0VGPW+At 4/QvUz80dJASgcKh3UkHECLYTNgGV4fLOkR+iveP0ZziY4RQxVP2zDt92Dyr+BE6+hq2 rCeg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hXgsSiXjMRixQJFd6YHgirk70RcFV96NOiauTyKt7ck=; b=hSkbgJccCIexaS+Lc2kkORu1HEngAk7Ap7Npjv7SbEm8xZEeZ3kSi2lWqe2B/nV1O8 rlGt8scTV44EG70ZC5UsfcE400Uotyt8nRvfIKmxKtU4ANX+lCySZNuvhphgZOikA9Tb qY7EaW60mVtoeqpwzEA3HvsxfRiSYOAH3ssPeel6DF5burm6aq39oT59RXz53+MXwxxF dAJSWU5NGSIYsmRv2rd1JRMEeBEkKM6Jxdv2FvN/9hVZofVUS3Dq318II2V3VXhOL4Xg YI/3HYipmPIkk7CMrZg/NU/gXo+QdMR08VPLiRfUaa2vbPBbMRH8mlOFSpP6Ii+EWdeu JQzw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLmVUR7ZgXGaEjnf4UrnxmWzJR2GkR+KJuY+hOofVCDn1AXZhjv cfmHK7/hy/vG6fanJjbc486wv00wz4g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5e8f7LbGnSfka1Pl8v4z2EqnecX3DBtNM56dGYMAEzXMoX0U+PmsTQjLLqr2VVO2Cbi7N//mw== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:ca06:: with SMTP id a6-v6mr5497405iog.2.1540711226695; Sun, 28 Oct 2018 00:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomato.housegordon.com (moose.housegordon.com. [184.68.105.38]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id e15-v6sm5947039iom.6.2018.10.28.00.20.25 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Oct 2018 00:20:25 -0700 (PDT) To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Assaf Gordon Message-ID: <9aeda963-f707-a969-9d58-267655ff66d2@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 01:20:24 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: retitle 24926 ls-quotes: ls output has been made ugly [...] Content analysis details: (2.0 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (assafgordon[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.166.54 listed in list.dnswl.org] 1.8 MISSING_SUBJECT Missing Subject: header 0.2 NO_SUBJECT Extra score for no subject X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) retitle 24926 ls-quotes: ls output has been made ugly From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 13 15:26:42 2018 Received: (at 24926-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Dec 2018 20:26:42 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46819 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gXXZC-0000co-57 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 15:26:42 -0500 Received: from mail-pg1-f181.google.com ([209.85.215.181]:38882) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gXXZA-0000ca-Or for 24926-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 15:26:41 -0500 Received: by mail-pg1-f181.google.com with SMTP id g189so1567369pgc.5 for <24926-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:26:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gALQIHFY2Q+/1Xey4DWJ6WmbPCkgP+xRZ7WV6x5QBIY=; b=cVy7gd7BQK/OCJRbDzhW4vy0PDlPNbhct/ae+7t7Fl3+xdh+bPv2tTotR5/OTB7XRB +cDKh7RMcNNZsWX72uAnrbcA7u6SrV1QjOLCvofDUi1lame28Y36XiibcqdPjuk7mTdF I/5/JaSYADB61VQ3jiVZXbxwH5zezOtHi5uZDIdQ7NQ5oBpq41gCNZ4uPblZa1vyMaMA 3a13fwfkViYq8/XT8J1WF6AHaidOWjG+CoG/2SBcFPyUY4ma1amMZppCE5qf/ZdwLlXp ytwLaPPh/NRIh7x4+67h8lDiQ8J/e8qfJPtN9aUZcx+Nhye+fxJTnbaTu3klvUozSR/Y rC+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gALQIHFY2Q+/1Xey4DWJ6WmbPCkgP+xRZ7WV6x5QBIY=; b=B627fuKZoG3mpvZohvdRa+92b0lU8nZpKRQ6/EE1UNABtkKKltQoXInw97dkrUNYkZ 5Aai6hvCE38MBhsFw1hGeRws1IRfAUyTPSeFv6ER5T32HMtkGAFY7ndpN0w/K7q5XhDH rSJkBhP+ujpXPMRgPW57oP3TjTjsf6eHzItwlZb3x3wzAFf17VGimc9gJTqn3NwAyT0j KAqytlCfVoLId7RK58FDAhQx5+kS7KM/X0OJ6K0jW/ntmkwraraP5nkYX4oMzr2gI0IG IaBnocT+bPEW0qqGtKhTxgSrWIRTRNDBnxtcpl1QLA7KRbhkvFvUsIy7j2gvRHUZRKYW SBIw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWYkCQ9kukYeXZBW9UKMXXhwC0jWMM0E/xtmmHXUAPZeM/5Ps1G/ vXn5TlXa4Zl32VYcAhswAhmW1ilg X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/VPfG7Fve/cbH+mp0xA7FUbye2dRf/jWx7oZqejYW8G/vQahp/j+erXkLJKveNr8WUxlG4rGg== X-Received: by 2002:a65:4683:: with SMTP id h3mr202795pgr.225.1544732795081; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:26:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomato.housegordon.com (moose.housegordon.com. [184.68.105.38]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id g185sm4530046pfc.174.2018.12.13.12.26.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 13 Dec 2018 12:26:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#24926: ls output has been made ugly To: =?UTF-8?Q?R=c3=bcdiger_Meier?= , 24926-done@debbugs.gnu.org References: <86091437-a660-b5f8-5663-c4b84fb03b25@cs.ucla.edu> <281fc5e6-02e1-e6b0-0ab8-36427616db21@redhat.com> <201611121327.35677.sweet_f_a@gmx.de> From: Assaf Gordon Message-ID: <80ea730d-7c73-447e-f07b-b3256f7dbfe5@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 13:26:33 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201611121327.35677.sweet_f_a@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 24926-done Cc: Michael Schwager X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, On 2016-11-12 5:27 a.m., Rüdiger Meier wrote: > > > On Friday 11 November 2016 21:00:23 Eric Blake wrote: >> On 11/11/2016 12:26 PM, Paul Eggert wrote: >>> Michael Schwager wrote: >>>> Don't you think I can see the spaces in my filenames? >>> We created a summary of common issues and FAQs regarding the quoting change in ls(1): https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/quotes.html If there is an issue that is not addressed there, please send an email to coreutils@gnu.org . regards, - assaf From unknown Thu Jun 19 14:00:16 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 12:24:04 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator