GNU bug report logs - #24774
26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 18:28:10 +0200

Hi,

think it would be a gain if Emacs-lisp menu displays navigation commands.

Thanks,

Andreas
GNU Emacs 26.0.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.14.5) of 2016-10-11

Recent messages:
For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a.
(New file)

Configured features:
XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG SOUND GPM DBUS GSETTINGS NOTIFY ACL GNUTLS
LIBXML2 FREETYPE M17N_FLT LIBOTF XFT ZLIB TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: de_DE.utf8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Emacs-Lisp

Minor modes in effect:
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message subr-x puny seq byte-opt gv
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password-cache epa derived epg epg-config gnus-util rmail rmail-loaddefs
mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils
mailheader sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr
mail-utils time-date mule-util tooltip eldoc electric uniquify
ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel term/x-win x-win
term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe
tabulated-list newcomment elisp-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page
menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock
syntax facemenu font-core term/tty-colors frame cl-generic cham georgian
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japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european
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jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray minibuffer cl-preloaded nadvice
loaddefs button faces cus-face macroexp files text-properties overlay
sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget
hashtable-print-readable backquote dbusbind inotify dynamic-setting
system-font-setting font-render-setting move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x
multi-tty make-network-process emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 8 169065 8354)
 (symbols 24 38597 0)
 (miscs 20 41 160)
 (strings 16 53551 4976)
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 (vector-slots 4 474922 6778)
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 (heap 1024 18127 894))

Message #8 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de>
Cc: 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 15:18:29 +0200

Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de> writes:

> think it would be a gain if Emacs-lisp menu displays navigation commands.

What kind of navigation commands?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #13 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 09:54:24 +0200

On 27.07.19 15:18, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de> writes:
>
>> think it would be a gain if Emacs-lisp menu displays navigation commands.
> What kind of navigation commands?
>

Stuff like beginning-of-defun, up-list, forward-sexp


Thanks,

Andreas

Message #16 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de>
Cc: 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 12:25:30 +0200

Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de> writes:

> On 27.07.19 15:18, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
>> Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de> writes:
>>
>>> think it would be a gain if Emacs-lisp menu displays navigation commands.
>> What kind of navigation commands?
>
> Stuff like beginning-of-defun, up-list, forward-sexp

Oh, sexp-based navigation commands.  Yes, I think that's a good idea --
it'll make them more discoverable for new users.  I think both an
"Editing" sub-menu (`kill-sexp' etc) as well as a "Navigation" menu
would be nice.

Eep!

    (bindings--define-key menu-map [separator-format] menu-bar-separator)
    (bindings--define-key menu-map [comment-region]
      '(menu-item "Comment Out Region" comment-region
		  :help "Comment or uncomment each line in the region"
		  :enable mark-active))
    (bindings--define-key menu-map [indent-region]
      '(menu-item "Indent Region" indent-region
		  :help "Indent each nonblank line in the region"
		  :enable mark-active))

(ad nauseam).  elisp-mode.el doesn't use easy-menu, so every creating
menus there is so. much. typing.  And the file is dumped with Emacs, so
I'm guessing requiring easy-menu and doing a rewrite wouldn't be
welcome?

So while I agree that these sub-menus should be added, I think I'll
leave that to somebody else...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #23 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de>,
 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 07:34:55 -0800

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

>> Stuff like beginning-of-defun, up-list, forward-sexp
>
> Oh, sexp-based navigation commands.  Yes, I think that's a good idea --
> it'll make them more discoverable for new users.  I think both an
> "Editing" sub-menu (`kill-sexp' etc) as well as a "Navigation" menu
> would be nice.
>
> Eep!
>
>     (bindings--define-key menu-map [separator-format] menu-bar-separator)
>     (bindings--define-key menu-map [comment-region]
>       '(menu-item "Comment Out Region" comment-region
> 		  :help "Comment or uncomment each line in the region"
> 		  :enable mark-active))
>     (bindings--define-key menu-map [indent-region]
>       '(menu-item "Indent Region" indent-region
> 		  :help "Indent each nonblank line in the region"
> 		  :enable mark-active))
>
> (ad nauseam).  elisp-mode.el doesn't use easy-menu, so every creating
> menus there is so. much. typing.  And the file is dumped with Emacs, so
> I'm guessing requiring easy-menu and doing a rewrite wouldn't be
> welcome?
>
> So while I agree that these sub-menus should be added, I think I'll
> leave that to somebody else...

Is preloading easy-menu.el excluded?

Message #26 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de>,
 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 22:09:03 +0100

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> Is preloading easy-menu.el excluded?

If I do an "emacs -Q", then it turns out that easymenu.el is already
present, so I think something is already loading it (even if it's not
explicitly mentioned by lisp/loadup.el).

So rewriting the emacs-lisp menus using easymenu should be
uncontroversial.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #29 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:01:25 -0800 (PST)

> So rewriting the emacs-lisp menus using easymenu should be
> uncontroversial.

Really?  _Why_ rewrite them?

And easy-menu doesn't offer all that an "extended menu
item' offers.  What would be the point of rewriting to
use easy-menu.

I actually find easy-menu harder to work with, FWIW.
It's too monolithic.  Ordinary menu bindings are
individual, essentially independent.  The easy-menu
functions seem too all-or-nothing.

(I'm no expert on easy-menu, so some of my view of it
might be mistaken.  It just seems to me more of a pain
than a help, when trying to adapt or adjust some "easy"
menu that already exists.)

And what on earth does rewriting Elisp menus to use
easy-menu have to do with this bug?

This sounds like a solution (something you're perhaps
more used to) in search of a problem.

Message #32 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:16:31 -0800

Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:

>> So rewriting the emacs-lisp menus using easymenu should be
>> uncontroversial.
>
> Really?  _Why_ rewrite them?

They would be easier to read, understand and change.

Message #35 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 15:16:04 -0800 (PST)

> >> So rewriting the emacs-lisp menus using easymenu should be
> >> uncontroversial.
> >
> > Really?  _Why_ rewrite them?
> 
> They would be easier to read, understand and change.

Easier for whom?

I don't find maintenance easier with easy-menu.  I find
it harder.  Of course my "maintenance" of existing Emacs
menus means adding to, or otherwise changing, them.

(How do you do the equivalent of a `define-key-after',
for example?  Oh, or is there no equivalent?) 

Message #38 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:10:45 -0800

Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:

> (How do you do the equivalent of a `define-key-after',
> for example?  Oh, or is there no equivalent?)

I'm not sure why you can't use `define-key-after', but there is also
`easy-menu-define-key'.

Message #41 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de>,
 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:19:19 -0600

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

tags 24774 + patch
thanks

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:
>
>> Is preloading easy-menu.el excluded?
>
> If I do an "emacs -Q", then it turns out that easymenu.el is already
> present, so I think something is already loading it (even if it's not
> explicitly mentioned by lisp/loadup.el).
>
> So rewriting the emacs-lisp menus using easymenu should be
> uncontroversial.

How do the attached patches look?

[0001-Preload-easymenu.el.patch (text/x-diff, attachment)]

[0002-Convert-emacs-lisp-mode-menu-to-easy-menu-define.patch (text/x-diff, attachment)]

Message #46 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de>,
 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:29:32 +0100

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

>> So rewriting the emacs-lisp menus using easymenu should be
>> uncontroversial.
>
> How do the attached patches look?

Looks good to me.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #49 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 17:57:27 +0200

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 09:19:19 -0600
> Cc: 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> * lisp/loadup.el: Preload easymenu.  It turns out that it is already
> loaded in a default Emacs 27.

It is?  I don't see it in "emacs -Q".  It only gets loaded when
emacs-lisp-mode is activated.

So why do we need to preload it?

Message #52 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 17:02:51 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> It is?  I don't see it in "emacs -Q".  It only gets loaded when
> emacs-lisp-mode is activated.

emacs -Q
(featurep 'easymenu)
=> t

This is probably because *scratch* is an Emacs Lisp-derived mode, but it
means that it's usually loaded on startup, and emacs-lisp.el should be
able to use it, because the typical impact on users will be nil.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #55 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 17:14:32 +0100

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> This is probably because *scratch* is an Emacs Lisp-derived mode, but it
> means that it's usually loaded on startup, and emacs-lisp.el should be
> able to use it, because the typical impact on users will be nil.

Sorry -- I meant that there is typically no negative impact on users,
but there is, of course, typically a positive impact on preloading
easymenu -- it means that Emacs will, invoked the typical way, start
faster.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #58 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 18:16:41 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>,  24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 17:02:51 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > It is?  I don't see it in "emacs -Q".  It only gets loaded when
> > emacs-lisp-mode is activated.
> 
> emacs -Q
> (featurep 'easymenu)
> => t

I get nil here, in Emacs 28.  Both on MS-Windows and on GNU/Linux in
"emacs -Q -nw".

Maybe it's system-dependent?  What Emacs configuration is the one
where you get the above?

> This is probably because *scratch* is an Emacs Lisp-derived mode

Nope.

> emacs-lisp.el should be able to use it, because the typical impact
> on users will be nil.

Why cannot emacs-lisp.el use it without preloading it?  emacs-lisp.el
is not itself preloaded, it loads only when you invoke the mode the
first time, e.g. by visiting a .el file.

Message #61 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:37:04 -0600

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Why cannot emacs-lisp.el use it without preloading it?  emacs-lisp.el
> is not itself preloaded, it loads only when you invoke the mode the
> first time, e.g. by visiting a .el file.

The correct name is "elisp-mode.el", and that file is preloaded.

Message #64 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 18:44:41 +0200

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:37:04 -0600
> Cc: 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Why cannot emacs-lisp.el use it without preloading it?  emacs-lisp.el
> > is not itself preloaded, it loads only when you invoke the mode the
> > first time, e.g. by visiting a .el file.
> 
> The correct name is "elisp-mode.el", and that file is preloaded.

OK, but easymenu is still not loaded here in "emacs -Q".  Can you
figure out which code loads it on your system?

Message #67 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, stefan <at> marxist.se,
 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:50:53 +0000

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
>> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>,  24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 17:02:51 +0100
>> 
>> emacs -Q
>> (featurep 'easymenu)
>> => t
>
> I get nil here, in Emacs 28.  Both on MS-Windows and on GNU/Linux in
> "emacs -Q -nw".

I get nil too with C-j, C-x C-e, and M-:, and regardless of '-nw'.

> Maybe it's system-dependent?  What Emacs configuration is the one
> where you get the above?

-- 
Basil

In GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, cairo version 1.16.0, Xaw3d scroll bars)
 of 2021-02-23 built on tia
Repository revision: 228fd92fb389eeaf2ec0bbca51da0569fce28ee7
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12010000
System Description: Debian GNU/Linux bullseye/sid

Configured using:
 'configure 'CC=ccache gcc' 'CFLAGS=-O2 -march=native' --config-cache
 --prefix=/home/blc/.local --enable-checking=structs
 --with-x-toolkit=lucid --with-file-notification=yes --with-x'

Configured features:
ACL CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GPM GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG
JSON LCMS2 LIBOTF LIBSELINUX LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 M17N_FLT MODULES NOTIFY
INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SOUND THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS X11
XAW3D XDBE XIM XPM LUCID ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: en_IE.UTF-8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Lisp Interaction

Minor modes in effect:
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  eldoc-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug message rmc puny dired dired-loaddefs
rfc822 mml easymenu mml-sec epa derived epg epg-config gnus-util rmail
rmail-loaddefs auth-source cl-seq eieio eieio-core cl-macs
eieio-loaddefs password-cache json map text-property-search time-date
subr-x seq byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile cconv mm-decode mm-bodies
mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader cl-loaddefs
cl-lib sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils
iso-transl tooltip eldoc electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks
lisp-float-type mwheel term/x-win x-win term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar
dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment
text-mode elisp-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar
rfn-eshadow isearch timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock
syntax facemenu font-core term/tty-colors frame minibuffer cl-generic
cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao
korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech
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case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray
cl-preloaded nadvice button loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files
window text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages
mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbind
inotify lcms2 dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting
cairo x-toolkit x multi-tty make-network-process emacs)

Memory information:
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Message #70 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 19:10:54 +0200

> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>,  stefan <at> marxist.se,
>   24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:50:53 +0000
> 
> I get nil too with C-j, C-x C-e, and M-:, and regardless of '-nw'.
> 
> > Maybe it's system-dependent?  What Emacs configuration is the one
> > where you get the above?
> 
> -- 
> Basil
> 
> In GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, cairo version 1.16.0, Xaw3d scroll bars)
>  of 2021-02-23 built on tia

So maybe this is specific to GTK builds?

Message #73 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 17:24:38 +0000

>> I get nil too with C-j, C-x C-e, and M-:, and regardless of '-nw'.
>>
>>> Maybe it's system-dependent?  What Emacs configuration is the one 
>>> where you get the above?
>>
>> In GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, cairo version 1.16.0, Xaw3d scroll bars) of 2021-02-23 built on tia
>
> So maybe this is specific to GTK builds?
>

I just tried on several GTK builds (of Emacs 26, 27 and 28) and they all 
return nil.

Message #76 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
Cc: 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 19:37:20 +0200

> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 17:24:38 +0000
> From: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
> cc: 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > So maybe this is specific to GTK builds?
> >
> 
> I just tried on several GTK builds (of Emacs 26, 27 and 28) and they all 
> return nil.

Thanks for testing.

So, Lars and Stefan: what is your secret?  We are all dying to know.

Message #79 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 16:12:22 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> So, Lars and Stefan: what is your secret?  We are all dying to know.

This is really weird -- I'm also getting (featurep 'easymenu) => nil now
on "emacs -Q".

Hm.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #82 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>,
 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 17:01:29 +0100

On Wed, 24 Feb 2021 16:12:22 +0100 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> wrote:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>> So, Lars and Stefan: what is your secret?  We are all dying to know.
>
> This is really weird -- I'm also getting (featurep 'easymenu) => nil now
> on "emacs -Q".
>
> Hm.

When you got t previously, could you have done `C-h v features' before
testing featurep?  help-mode loads easymenu.el.

Steve Berman

Message #85 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>,
 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 17:06:22 +0100

Stephen Berman <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net> writes:

> When you got t previously, could you have done `C-h v features' before
> testing featurep?  help-mode loads easymenu.el.

Aha!  Just doing `C-h v TAB' loads easymenu.  So I must have done that
(or something similar) on my way to `M-: (featurep 'easymenu)'

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #88 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 19:25:25 -0600

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> The correct name is "elisp-mode.el", and that file is preloaded.
>
> OK, but easymenu is still not loaded here in "emacs -Q".  Can you
> figure out which code loads it on your system?

I can no longer reproduce this now:

emacs -Q
M-: (featurep 'easymenu)
=> nil

I tried this several times both on master and Emacs 27.

I have no idea what I did differently before, because I did confirm that
it was preloaded (or so it seemed).  Perhaps I inadvertently did
something else that loaded it?

I do see this on both master and Emacs 27:

emacs -Q foo.txt
M-: (featurep 'easymenu)
=> t

So it seems very easy to get it to load it in normal use.

Message #91 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, larsi <at> gnus.org, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:04:06 +0100

On Wed, 24 Feb 2021 19:25:25 -0600 Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> wrote:

> I do see this on both master and Emacs 27:
>
> emacs -Q foo.txt
> M-: (featurep 'easymenu)
> => t

I cannot reproduce this.  Also with this:

emacs-27 -Q --eval "(message \"easymenu is%s loaded\" (if (featurep 'easymenu) \"\" \" not\"))" foo.txt

C-x b *Messages*
=> easymenu is not loaded

Compare:

emacs-27 -Q --eval "(progn (load-library \"easymenu\") (message \"easymenu is%s loaded\" (if (featurep 'easymenu) \"\" \" not\")))" foo.txt

C-x b *Messages*
=> easymenu is loaded

If you don't get this difference, something is weird somewhere.

Steve Berman

Message #94 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net>,Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:24:05 +0200

On February 25, 2021 11:04:06 AM GMT+02:00, Stephen Berman <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Feb 2021 19:25:25 -0600 Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> wrote:
> 
> > I do see this on both master and Emacs 27:
> >
> > emacs -Q foo.txt
> > M-: (featurep 'easymenu)
> > => t
> 
> I cannot reproduce this.  Also with this:
> 
> emacs-27 -Q --eval "(message \"easymenu is%s loaded\" (if (featurep
> 'easymenu) \"\" \" not\"))" foo.txt
> 
> C-x b *Messages*
> => easymenu is not loaded
> 
> Compare:
> 
> emacs-27 -Q --eval "(progn (load-library \"easymenu\") (message
> \"easymenu is%s loaded\" (if (featurep 'easymenu) \"\" \" not\")))"
> foo.txt
> 
> C-x b *Messages*
> => easymenu is loaded
> 
> If you don't get this difference, something is weird somewhere.

I'm guessing that Stefan did this in a Git-versioned tree, where visiting a file loads vc-git.el, which loads diff-mode.el, which loads easymenu.

Message #97 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net>, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>,
 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:09:58 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I'm guessing that Stefan did this in a Git-versioned tree, where
> visiting a file loads vc-git.el, which loads diff-mode.el, which loads
> easymenu.

Right.  Even `C-h v' loads easymenu, so I think the conclusion here is
that it's difficult to do many normal operations in Emacs without
easymenu being loaded.  So preloading it seems like the right thing to
do -- it'll make normal Emacs usage faster (and allow us to clean up
more ancient code at the same time).

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #100 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 17:27:32 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net>, Stefan Kangas
>  <stefan <at> marxist.se>, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:09:58 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > I'm guessing that Stefan did this in a Git-versioned tree, where
> > visiting a file loads vc-git.el, which loads diff-mode.el, which loads
> > easymenu.
> 
> Right.  Even `C-h v' loads easymenu, so I think the conclusion here is
> that it's difficult to do many normal operations in Emacs without
> easymenu being loaded.  So preloading it seems like the right thing to
> do -- it'll make normal Emacs usage faster (and allow us to clean up
> more ancient code at the same time).

We never followed such logic, AFAIR.  Quite the contrary: we tried to
delay loading as log as we could.  So maybe, for example, loading
diff-mode just because a VC backend loads is not TRT.

More generally, I'm afraid that not keeping this stuff in check will
be a slippery slope, which will quickly lead to a much fatter Emacs
process.

Message #103 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:52:26 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> More generally, I'm afraid that not keeping this stuff in check will
> be a slippery slope, which will quickly lead to a much fatter Emacs
> process.

Including easymenu allows for a slimmer Emacs process -- using easymenu
results in smaller .elc files for the .el files that use it, I think?

So I say include it in loadup.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #106 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 20:18:37 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net,  stefan <at> marxist.se,  24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 16:52:26 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > More generally, I'm afraid that not keeping this stuff in check will
> > be a slippery slope, which will quickly lead to a much fatter Emacs
> > process.
> 
> Including easymenu allows for a slimmer Emacs process -- using easymenu
> results in smaller .elc files for the .el files that use it, I think?
> 
> So I say include it in loadup.

Again: we never included in loadup what is not immediately loaded at
startup anyway.  I don't think we should start that way, so please
let's not.

Message #109 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: larsi <at> gnus.org
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 21:20:39 +0200

> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 20:18:37 +0200
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > Including easymenu allows for a slimmer Emacs process -- using easymenu
> > results in smaller .elc files for the .el files that use it, I think?
> > 
> > So I say include it in loadup.
> 
> Again: we never included in loadup what is not immediately loaded at
> startup anyway.  I don't think we should start that way, so please
> let's not.

Alternatively, if you think the criteria for what should and shouldn't
be preloaded should change, let's see if we can come up with some
reasonable modified criteria that will not let us slip that slope.
What I'd like to avoid is preloading something without having a clear
idea why, because then we won't be able to explain why we preload
foo.el, but not bar.el or baz.el.

Message #112 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:48:15 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> Including easymenu allows for a slimmer Emacs process -- using easymenu
>> results in smaller .elc files for the .el files that use it, I think?
>> 
>> So I say include it in loadup.
>
> Again: we never included in loadup what is not immediately loaded at
> startup anyway.  I don't think we should start that way, so please
> let's not.

The suggested patch is to use easymenu in elisp-mode.el -- which is a
file that's preloaded.  To use it there, easymenu itself also has to be
preloaded, so I'm not sure exactly what you mean here.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #115 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 14:04:30 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net,  stefan <at> marxist.se,  24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:48:15 +0100
> 
> > Again: we never included in loadup what is not immediately loaded at
> > startup anyway.  I don't think we should start that way, so please
> > let's not.
> 
> The suggested patch is to use easymenu in elisp-mode.el -- which is a
> file that's preloaded.  To use it there, easymenu itself also has to be
> preloaded, so I'm not sure exactly what you mean here.

maybe it's a reason good enough not to use easymenu in elisp-mode.el?
Why do we want to do that, again?

Message #118 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 13:07:34 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> maybe it's a reason good enough not to use easymenu in elisp-mode.el?
> Why do we want to do that, again?

Because it's a better, more sensible way to define menus.  (And possibly
smaller .elc file, as I said.)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #121 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 14:27:58 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net,  stefan <at> marxist.se,  24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 13:07:34 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > maybe it's a reason good enough not to use easymenu in elisp-mode.el?
> > Why do we want to do that, again?
> 
> Because it's a better, more sensible way to define menus.

But the same argument can be brought up for cl-macs.el and cl-lib.el
and seq.el and map.el and pcase.el and probably several others.  Where
do we stop, if the criterion is "better and more sensible" (which are
highly subjective judgments)?

Or are you saying that memory footprint considerations are totally
unimportant, and we should preload everything that might possibly be
helpful?

That's why I suggested to discuss and agree on the criteria first.  If
we don't agree on some criteria, we will have this argument many times
in the future.

> (And possibly smaller .elc file, as I said.)

I'd like to see the actual numbers, please.  And also the memory
footprint before and after loading easymenu.  With the current code, I
see a 0.25MB increase in the VM size after I load easymenu.elc.

Message #124 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: "stephen.berman <at> gmx.net" <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net>,
 "stefan <at> marxist.se" <stefan <at> marxist.se>,
 "24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: RE: [External] : bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 16:04:43 +0000

> > maybe it's a reason good enough not to use easymenu in elisp-mode.el?
> > Why do we want to do that, again?
> 
> Because it's a better, more sensible way to define menus.

If that were true then it would be an argument for
getting rid of extended menu items and defining
menus using define-key altogether.  Are you arguing
for that also?  If not, why not?

IOW, how about a "better" - meaning more refined or
precise - reason for what you want to do?  "It's
better" is not what I'd call a great argument.

Message #127 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 05:30:39 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> Because it's a better, more sensible way to define menus.
>
> But the same argument can be brought up for cl-macs.el and cl-lib.el
> and seq.el and map.el and pcase.el and probably several others.

Yes, of course.

> Where do we stop, if the criterion is "better and more sensible"
> (which are highly subjective judgments)?

I don't think anybody claims that the non-easymenu way of defining menus
is superior?

Our most important code is the one that is in the very core of Emacs,
and it's a shame we don't use more of these libraries there, and instead
open-code stuff badly.

easymenu.el is over-ripe for preloading since it's very hard to do much
in Emacs without it being pulled in anyway -- so you get no space
savings in practice, but just a slower Emacs.

>> (And possibly smaller .elc file, as I said.)
>
> I'd like to see the actual numbers, please.  And also the memory
> footprint before and after loading easymenu.  With the current code, I
> see a 0.25MB increase in the VM size after I load easymenu.elc.

Pre patch:

larsi <at> xo:~/src/emacs/trunk$ ls -l src/emacs src/emacs.pdmp lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.elc
-rw-r--r-- 1 larsi larsi    60375 Feb 27 05:09 lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.elc
-rwxr-xr-x 2 larsi larsi 32583784 Feb 27 05:10 src/emacs
-rw-r--r-- 2 larsi larsi 10630544 Feb 27 05:10 src/emacs.pdmp

Post patch:

larsi <at> xo:~/src/emacs/trunk$ ls -l src/emacs src/emacs.pdmp lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.elc
-rw-r--r-- 1 larsi larsi    58798 Feb 27 05:21 lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.elc
-rwxr-xr-x 2 larsi larsi 32583784 Feb 27 05:21 src/emacs
-rw-r--r-- 2 larsi larsi 10632360 Feb 27 05:21 src/emacs.pdmp

(- (+ 10632360 58798) (+ 10630544 60375)) => 239 bytes.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #130 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 06:27:23 +0100

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> larsi <at> xo:~/src/emacs/trunk$ ls -l src/emacs src/emacs.pdmp
> lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.elc
> -rw-r--r-- 1 larsi larsi    58798 Feb 27 05:21 lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.elc
> -rwxr-xr-x 2 larsi larsi 32583784 Feb 27 05:21 src/emacs
> -rw-r--r-- 2 larsi larsi 10632360 Feb 27 05:21 src/emacs.pdmp
>
> (- (+ 10632360 58798) (+ 10630544 60375)) => 239 bytes.

Err.  That's counting the elisp-mode.elc size reduction twice, since
it's included in the .pdmp file, I guess.  So it's

(- 10632360 10630544) => 1816 bytes

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #133 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: "stephen.berman <at> gmx.net" <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net>,
 "stefan <at> marxist.se" <stefan <at> marxist.se>,
 "24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: RE: [External] : bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 06:14:45 +0000

> > Where do we stop, if the criterion is "better and more sensible"
> > (which are highly subjective judgments)?
> 
> I don't think anybody claims that the non-easymenu
> way of defining menus is superior?

I'm somebody, and I claimed that explicitly.
And I gave reasons why I find it superior.

You can ignore my posts, but that doesn't
annul their arguments.

You, on the other hand, haven't provided
any reason for what you want to do (except
"smaller .elc file").  An empty claim of
"it's better" is not a great argument.

> easymenu.el is over-ripe for preloading since it's very hard to do much
> in Emacs without it being pulled in anyway -- so you get no space
> savings in practice, but just a slower Emacs.

How is it "very hard to do much in Emacs"
without pulling in easymenu?  It's easymenu
that's redundant, not "the non-easymenu way".

Your claim that easymenu is a "better, more
sensible way to define menus", and your
claims that everything that can be done the
"non-easymenu way" can be done with easymenu
(and better and more sensibly), call out for
replacing the non-easymenu way altogether.
Are you arguing in favor of that?  If not,
why not?

Message #136 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 09:43:55 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net,  stefan <at> marxist.se,  24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 05:30:39 +0100
> 
> > But the same argument can be brought up for cl-macs.el and cl-lib.el
> > and seq.el and map.el and pcase.el and probably several others.
> 
> Yes, of course.
> 
> > Where do we stop, if the criterion is "better and more sensible"
> > (which are highly subjective judgments)?
> 
> I don't think anybody claims that the non-easymenu way of defining menus
> is superior?

It isn't a catastrophe, IMO, not even close.  Non-easymenu:

    (bindings--define-key prof-map [prof-natprof-stop]
      '(menu-item "Stop Native Profiler" profiler-stop
		  :help "Stop recording profiling information"
		  :enable (and (featurep 'profiler)
			       (profiler-running-p))))

With easymenu:

    ["Show trailing whitespace" whitespace-mode
     :style toggle :selected (bound-and-true-p whitespace-mode)
     :help "Show trailing whitespace in modified lines"]

There's some boilerplate in the former, but it isn't unreadable, and
writing it is just a bunch of C-y's in addition to the actual content,
which must be typed in both cases.  It isn't superior, but is it so
awfully inferior? I don't think so.

> Our most important code is the one that is in the very core of Emacs,
> and it's a shame we don't use more of these libraries there, and instead
> open-code stuff badly.

I disagree with "shame" and "badly".  Next we will see similar
arguments about all the other packages mentioned above.

Again, I think we should agree on some criteria, because otherwise we
will not be able to reconcile subjective opinions about stylistic
issues.

> > I'd like to see the actual numbers, please.  And also the memory
> > footprint before and after loading easymenu.  With the current code, I
> > see a 0.25MB increase in the VM size after I load easymenu.elc.
> 
> Pre patch:
> 
> larsi <at> xo:~/src/emacs/trunk$ ls -l src/emacs src/emacs.pdmp lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.elc
> -rw-r--r-- 1 larsi larsi    60375 Feb 27 05:09 lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.elc
> -rwxr-xr-x 2 larsi larsi 32583784 Feb 27 05:10 src/emacs
> -rw-r--r-- 2 larsi larsi 10630544 Feb 27 05:10 src/emacs.pdmp
> 
> Post patch:
> 
> larsi <at> xo:~/src/emacs/trunk$ ls -l src/emacs src/emacs.pdmp lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.elc
> -rw-r--r-- 1 larsi larsi    58798 Feb 27 05:21 lisp/progmodes/elisp-mode.elc
> -rwxr-xr-x 2 larsi larsi 32583784 Feb 27 05:21 src/emacs
> -rw-r--r-- 2 larsi larsi 10632360 Feb 27 05:21 src/emacs.pdmp
> 
> (- (+ 10632360 58798) (+ 10630544 60375)) => 239 bytes.

Thanks, but I meant the runtime memory footprint, not the size on disk
(which IMO is of no importance, as long as small savings are being
discussed).

Message #139 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 12:50:59 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Thanks, but I meant the runtime memory footprint, not the size on disk
> (which IMO is of no importance, as long as small savings are being
> discussed).

Without patch:

larsi     958039 11.5  0.3 355040 61504 pts/0    Sl   12:47   0:00 ./src/emacs -Q
larsi     958573 12.0  0.3 355036 61440 pts/0    Sl   12:48   0:00 ./src/emacs -Q
larsi     958833 11.5  0.3 355036 61364 pts/0    Sl   12:48   0:00 ./src/emacs -Q

With patch:

larsi     959730 11.5  0.3 354940 61560 pts/0    Sl   12:48   0:00 ./src/emacs -Q
larsi     959992 11.5  0.3 354940 61132 pts/0    Sl   12:48   0:00 ./src/emacs -Q
larsi     960242 11.5  0.3 355012 61704 pts/0    Sl   12:48   0:00 ./src/emacs -Q


Tested with

bash -c "./src/emacs -Q&" ; sleep 2; ps auxwww | grep "[.]/src/emacs"

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #142 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 14:56:18 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net,  stefan <at> marxist.se,  24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 12:50:59 +0100
> 
> Without patch:
> 
> larsi     958039 11.5  0.3 355040 61504 pts/0    Sl   12:47   0:00 ./src/emacs -Q
> larsi     958573 12.0  0.3 355036 61440 pts/0    Sl   12:48   0:00 ./src/emacs -Q
> larsi     958833 11.5  0.3 355036 61364 pts/0    Sl   12:48   0:00 ./src/emacs -Q
> 
> With patch:
> 
> larsi     959730 11.5  0.3 354940 61560 pts/0    Sl   12:48   0:00 ./src/emacs -Q
> larsi     959992 11.5  0.3 354940 61132 pts/0    Sl   12:48   0:00 ./src/emacs -Q
> larsi     960242 11.5  0.3 355012 61704 pts/0    Sl   12:48   0:00 ./src/emacs -Q
> 
> 
> Tested with
> 
> bash -c "./src/emacs -Q&" ; sleep 2; ps auxwww | grep "[.]/src/emacs"

Sounds inconsistent?  Do you understand why?

Message #145 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 14:25:10 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Sounds inconsistent?  Do you understand why?

Nope -- Emacs is of different size every time I start it.  Address
randomisation leading to different malloc/free/return-to-OS patterns?

Anyway, there's no noticeable difference in mean size with or without
the patch in these runs, apparently.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #148 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:32:43 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net,  stefan <at> marxist.se,  24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 14:25:10 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Sounds inconsistent?  Do you understand why?
> 
> Nope -- Emacs is of different size every time I start it.  Address
> randomisation leading to different malloc/free/return-to-OS patterns?

I'm not talking about the initial size, I'm talking about the
difference between the RSS of the two variants: it is sometimes
positive and sometimes negative.

> Anyway, there's no noticeable difference in mean size with or without
> the patch in these runs, apparently.

Yes, I think so.

Message #151 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 14:49:14 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> Nope -- Emacs is of different size every time I start it.  Address
>> randomisation leading to different malloc/free/return-to-OS patterns?
>
> I'm not talking about the initial size, I'm talking about the
> difference between the RSS of the two variants: it is sometimes
> positive and sometimes negative.

I'm not sure I understand you here -- there's no initial size in the ps
output, only virtual size and resident set size?  I don't get the
"sometimes positive and sometimes" negative either -- there were three
runs of Emacsen started (with and without the patch), and both
numbers varied in all instances.

>> Anyway, there's no noticeable difference in mean size with or without
>> the patch in these runs, apparently.
>
> Yes, I think so.

The mean RSS sizes were 61436 and 61465, which is not a noticeable
difference.  But I may be misunderstanding what you mean here either.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #154 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:58:24 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net,  stefan <at> marxist.se,  24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 14:49:14 +0100
> 
> The mean RSS sizes were 61436 and 61465, which is not a noticeable
> difference.

I'm not sure the average is representative here, given the variance.
But anyway, the difference is too small to invest any more energy into
this aspect.

Message #157 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, stefan <at> marxist.se, 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:24:14 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I'm not sure the average is representative here, given the variance.
> But anyway, the difference is too small to invest any more energy into
> this aspect.

OK; applying and pushing Stefan's patch, then.

And then somebody could take a look at actually implementing the stuff
this bug report is really about.  :-)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #160 received at 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de>
Cc: 24774 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24774: 26.0.50; Menu display navigation commands
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:58:39 +0100

Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler <at> easy-emacs.de> writes:

>>> think it would be a gain if Emacs-lisp menu displays navigation commands.
>> What kind of navigation commands?
>>
>
> Stuff like beginning-of-defun, up-list, forward-sexp

OK; added to Emacs 28 now.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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