From xah@xahlee.org Wed Feb 25 11:41:31 2009 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 25 Feb 2009 19:41:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. 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X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) hi guys, Some problem i think on emacs describe-mode. http://xahlee.org/emacs/modernization_mode_doc.html Here's a plain text version. Following the text is some proposed code =20= solution (beta) that fixes 2 of the issues. -------------------------- Usability Problems Of Emacs's Mode Documentation Xah Lee, 2009-02-06 This page details some usability problems of Emacs's inline =20 documentation for its major-mode. Emacs has a command describe-mode (Ctrl+h m) that shows the inline =20 doc for the current mode. For example, if you are coding in =20 javascript, html, perl, or python, you can type =E2=80=9CCtrl+h m=E2=80=9D= to =20 quickly see a summarization of what functionalities you have while =20 coding in that lang, and what are the keyboard shortcuts. This is really a wonderful feature, but it is a shame that it has =20 some major usability problem, almost making this feature not usable. =20 The following gives some details. For example, when in w3m mode, which is a mode that allows you to =20 browse the web pages, i type =E2=80=9CCtrl+h m=E2=80=9D to read the = online doc =20 about the mode's features. The result page starts like this: Enabled minor modes: Abbrev Auto-Compression Blink-Cursor Command-Frequency Command-Frequency-Autosave Delete-Selection Desktop-Save Encoded-Kbd File-Name-Shadow Font-Lock Global-Font-=20 Lock Line-Number Menu-Bar Mouse-Wheel Recentf Shell-Dirtrack Show-Paren Tooltip Transient-Mark Unify-8859-On-Encoding Utf-Translate-Cjk (Information about these minor modes follows the major mode info.) It began by listing =E2=80=9Cminor-modes=E2=80=9D. (What Emacs calls = =E2=80=9Cminor =20 modes=E2=80=9D, is similar in concept to modern app's preference = settings =20 and add-ons features.) Here's a excerpt of the minor mode doc that comes after the major =20 mode doc: ^L Abbrev minor mode (indicator Abbrev): Toggle Abbrev mode in the current buffer. With optional argument ARG, turn abbrev mode on if ARG is positive, otherwise turn it off. In Abbrev mode, inserting an abbreviation causes it to expand and be replaced by its expansion. ^L Auto-Compression minor mode (no indicator): Toggle automatic file compression and uncompression. With prefix argument ARG, turn auto compression on if positive, =20 else off. Return the new status of auto compression (non-nil means on). ^L Blink-Cursor minor mode (no indicator): Toggle blinking cursor mode. With a numeric argument, turn blinking cursor mode on if ARG is =20 positive, otherwise turn it off. When blinking cursor mode is enabled, the cursor of the selected window blinks. Note that this command is effective only when Emacs displays through a window system, because then Emacs does its own cursor display. On a text-only terminal, this is not implemented. ^L Cua minor mode (no indicator): Toggle CUA key-binding mode. When enabled, using shifted movement keys will activate the region (and highlight the region using `transient-mark-mode'), and typed text replaces the active selection. Most of the minor modes, filled with emacs-specific technicalities =20 and terminologies, are not something emacs users need to know daily. =20 When user calls describe-mode, most of the time she really want to =20 know what functionality and shortcuts the major mode provides. But =20 these minor modes often fills more than 60% of the page. To me, it is really a pain to read (a emacs user for 10 years), and i =20= have learned the habit not even seeing them. I imagine it is very =20 confusing to new emacs users. Imagine, it has to annoy users about discussion such as Blink-Cursor, =20= Tooltip, Menu-Bar, Mouse-Wheel, Transient-Mark, Delete-Selection, =20 Font-Lock, Line-Number. Each of these is at least one paragraph long, =20= and some are emacs's non-intuitive and weired tech jargons. For =20 example, the standard feature of having selected text highlighted, is =20= in emacs called transient-mark-mode. The standard feature of typing =20 overriding selected text, is in emacs tech jargon called delete-=20 selection-mode. The standard feature of copy/cut/paste keys, is in =20 emacs called cua-mode. Syntax highlighting is called font-lock-mode. Does user really need to know, that he has Blinking Cursor on? And a =20 user needs to be told of the fact he has mouse wheel support on? And =20 menu bar, tooltip, syntax highlighting? Do users need explanation =20 what these do too? The emacs minor mode, also includes proper features such as: Show-=20 Paren, Recentf, Desktop-Save, Abbrev, Yas/Minor ... etc. For example, =20= show-paren-mode highlight matching parenthesis. =E2=80=9Crecentf-mode=E2=80= =9D =20 lets user open recently opened files. =E2=80=9Cdesktop-save-mode=E2=80=9D = =20 preserves opened files when emacs restarts. It is nice to be able to see what features are currently on, and what =20= extra functionality it supports, but perhaps a separate command =20 describe-minor-modes would be better. Minor mode listing also include a bunch that shows some technical =20 issues of emacs's current state that has little to do with daily use =20 of emacs. For example, it shows Shell-Dirtrack, Auto-Compression, =20 Encoded-Kbd, File-Name-Shadow, Unify-8859-On-Encoding, Utf-Translate-=20 Cjk. I have used emacs daily for 10 years, half of the minor mode =20 showing up in describe-mode i don't even know what exactly they are. Also, the page litters =E2=80=9C^L=E2=80=9D char (ascii 12) through out. = The =20 =E2=80=9C^L=E2=80=9D is a page break marker. Such practice is a = convention in the =20 1980s. Almost no software today does this, and very few professional =20 programers today understand what it is. This adds to the =20 incomprehensibility. I think the major usability problem with describe-mode is the listing =20= of minor modes. Though, the major mode's inline doc could also use =20 some improvement. Here's a excerpt of the inline doc for w3m: w3m mode: Major mode for browsing web. RET Display the page pointed to by the link under point. =20 You may use the prefix arg `2' or `C-u C-u' to make a new session. If w3m-use-form is t, `RET' and `' enable you =20 to enter forms. You may use the prefix arg `2' or `C-u C-u' to make a =20 new session. Display the page of the link in a new session. If the region is active, visit all the links within the =20 region. Display the page of the link in a new session by mouse. C-c C-c Submit the form at point. R Reload the current page. r Redisplay the current page. C t Redisplay the page, specifying a content type. C c Redisplay the current page, specifying a charset. C C Redisplay the current page and reset the user-specified =20= charset and content type. The notation for keyboard shortcuts, such as =E2=80=9CC-u C-u=E2=80=9D, = =E2=80=9CRET=E2=80=9D, =20 are hard to read. It becomes more confusing when there are shortcuts =20 that doesn't use a modifier such as =E2=80=9CC t=E2=80=9D. The = =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D =20 and =E2=80=9CS-kp-enter=E2=80=9D are especially cryptic. Suggestions * describe-mode should just show the inline doc for the major mode. * Add a link to the bottom that point to the full doc of the =20 mode, if it exists. (the link may be to info doc, or call browse-url =20 to open a html doc on local disk, or to a url online of the mode's =20 doc website) * Get rid of convention of using ^L (ascii 12) for page break =20 marker. * Add a link at the bottom, to a page that shows inline doc of =20 minor modes. * Use curly quotes =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D instead of the 1980's ascii = kludge `'. For detail about the key notation that adds up readability, see: =20 Emacs's M-=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA Notation vs Alt+=E2=80=B9key=E2=80=BA = Notation. The use of backtick char ` and single quote char ' for =E2=80=9Cmatching = =20 quotes=E2=80=9D is a 1980's kludge. They also adds to the readability = problem. It would also be helpful, if the keys are rendered as buttons. Note =20 that the button rendering is used in the help files in MS Windows and =20= Mac OS X too. And in Wikipedia's articles related to keys, it is also =20= used thru-out. e.g. Table of keyboard shortcuts. Here's a sample output for comparison: w3m mode: Major mode for browsing web. Enter Display the page pointed to by the link under point. You may use the prefix arg =E2=80=9C2=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CCtrl+u = Ctrl+u=E2=80=9D to make =20 a new session. If w3m-use-form is t, =E2=80=9CEnter=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cmouse = middle button=E2=80=9D =20 enable you to enter forms. You may use the prefix arg =E2=80=9C2=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CCtrl+u = Ctrl+u=E2=80=9D to make =20 a new session. Keypad Shift+Enter Display the page of the link in a new session. If the region is active, visit all the links within the region. Shift+Mouse Middle Button Display the page of the link in a new =20= session by mouse. Ctrl+c Ctrl+c Submit the form at point. R Reload the current page. r Redisplay the current page. C t Redisplay the page, specifying a content type. C c Redisplay the current page, specifying a charset. C C Redisplay the current page and reset the user-specified =20= charset and content type. ------------------------- ;; code by Kevin Rodgers. 2009-02-25 (defun describe-major-mode () "Show inline doc for current major-mode." (interactive) (describe-function major-mode)) ;; display page delimiter =E2=80=9C^L=E2=80=9D as a horizontal line. = Code by =20 S=C3=A9bastien Vauban. 2009-02-25 (or standard-display-table (setq standard-display-table (make-display-table))) (aset standard-display-table ?\f (vconcat "\n" (make-vector 60 ?-) "^L=20= \n")) ;; Display the =E2=80=9C^L=E2=80=9D page break mark as a horizontal line ;; from http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/OverlayControlL , 2009-02-25 ;; code by Andre Riemann (add-hook 'after-change-major-mode-hook (lambda () (font-lock-add-keywords nil `((,page-delimiter ;; variable with the regexp (usually "^\f" or =20= "^^L") 0 (prog1 nil ;; don't display ^L (compose-region (match-beginning 0) (match-end 0) "") ;; make an overlay (like in hl-line) (let ((pdl (make-overlay (line-beginning-position) (line-beginning-position 2)))) ;; :background has to be different from the background =20 color ;; gray1 here is just a little different from black (overlay-put pdl 'face '(:underline "gray30" :background =20= "gray1")) (overlay-put pdl 'modification-hooks ;; these arguments are received from =20 modification-hooks '((lambda (overlay after-p begin end =20 &optional length) (delete-overlay overlay)))) (overlay-put pdl 'insert-in-front-hooks '((lambda (overlay after-p begin end =20 &optional length) (delete-overlay overlay)))))) t))))) Xah =E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/ =E2=98=84= From rgm@gnu.org Wed Feb 25 19:57:27 2009 Received: (at control) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 26 Feb 2009 03:57:27 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=4.0 tests=VALID_BTS_CONTROL autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1Q3vL63009075 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:57:23 -0800 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LcXKz-00072r-09; Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:55:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <18854.4760.940911.972299@fencepost.gnu.org> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:55:04 -0500 From: Glenn Morris To: control Subject: control message reassign 686 emacs,w32 reassign 1780 emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com severity 2473 wishlist reassign 2468 spam reassign 2469 spam reassign 2471 spam severity 2474 wishlist severity 973 wishlist tags 846 wontfix reassign 1131 emacs,ns severity 1226 minor severity 1253 minor severity 1339 minor tags 1339 moreinfo severity 1474 wishlist severity 1582 minor severity 1646 minor tags 1753 moreinfo reassign 2475 spam From monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Thu Feb 26 07:15:41 2009 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 26 Feb 2009 15:15:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.4 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, XIRONPORT autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1QFFYFH029361 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 07:15:35 -0800 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LchxU-00020A-W3 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:15:33 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LchxS-0001vr-Fi for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:15:32 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=37902 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LchxS-0001vW-48 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:15:30 -0500 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.182]:54289) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LchxR-0001Am-TB for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:15:30 -0500 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgsFAP9ApklFxKYM/2dsb2JhbACBb9d+hBEGg2Y X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,271,1233550800"; d="scan'208";a="34437990" Received: from 69-196-166-12.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([69.196.166.12]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 26 Feb 2009 10:15:29 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id 649579114; Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:15:28 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: xah lee Cc: 2473@debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode Message-ID: References: <3FD7E241-BEE3-43D6-B7F6-79A3758562FB@xahlee.org> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:15:28 -0500 In-Reply-To: <3FD7E241-BEE3-43D6-B7F6-79A3758562FB@xahlee.org> (xah lee's message of "Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:40:24 -0800") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.90 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. > For example, when in w3m mode, which is a mode that allows you to browse = the > web pages, i type =E2=80=9CCtrl+h m=E2=80=9D to read the online doc abou= t the mode's > features. The result page starts like this: > Enabled minor modes: Abbrev Auto-Compression Blink-Cursor > Command-Frequency Command-Frequency-Autosave Delete-Selection > Desktop-Save Encoded-Kbd File-Name-Shadow Font-Lock Global-Font- > Lock > Line-Number Menu-Bar Mouse-Wheel Recentf Shell-Dirtrack Show-Paren > Tooltip Transient-Mark Unify-8859-On-Encoding Utf-Translate-Cjk > (Information about these minor modes follows the major mode info.) > It began by listing =E2=80=9Cminor-modes=E2=80=9D. (What Emacs calls =E2= =80=9Cminor modes=E2=80=9D, is > similar in concept to modern app's preference settings and > add-ons features.) C-h m has historically listed both minor modes and major modes. Originally, it listed first the major mode than the minor modes, and people complained that the minor modes were buried and nobody could notice them. So we added a header like above to advertize the minor-mode info that can be found further down. OT1H I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be: as you say, you learn to ignore it, so it does what it's intended to do: teaches you of the presence of the minor mode info without preventing you from seeing the major mode info. OTOH, I agree that many of the above modes shouldn't be there. More specifically, I think that the above list should only list buffer-specific information, i.e. only minor modes which are buffer-local. The global minor modes could still be present in the *Help* buffer, but then only at the very end, after the major mode and after the buffer-local minor modes. Stefan From rms@gnu.org Fri Feb 27 02:13:14 2009 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 27 Feb 2009 10:13:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=unavailable version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1RADBhY004917 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:13:12 -0800 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LcziQ-0006pW-Ep for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:13:10 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LcziO-0006ot-M5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:13:08 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=44583 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LcziO-0006oq-Cw for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:13:08 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:55201) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LcziO-000256-2t for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:13:08 -0500 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Lczg9-0006xy-C8; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:10:49 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard M Stallman To: xah lee , 2473@debbugs.gnu.org CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org In-reply-to: <3FD7E241-BEE3-43D6-B7F6-79A3758562FB@xahlee.org> (message from xah lee on Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:40:24 -0800) Subject: Re: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode Reply-to: rms@gnu.org References: <3FD7E241-BEE3-43D6-B7F6-79A3758562FB@xahlee.org> Message-Id: Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:10:49 -0500 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-CrossAssassin-Score: 2 Most of the minor modes, filled with emacs-specific technicalities and terminologies, are not something emacs users need to know daily. When user calls describe-mode, most of the time she really want to know what functionality and shortcuts the major mode provides. But these minor modes often fills more than 60% of the page. To me, it is really a pain to read (a emacs user for 10 years), and i have learned the habit not even seeing them. I imagine it is very confusing to new emacs users. YOU enabled a lot of those minor modes. Here's what I get in emacs -Q: Enabled minor modes: Auto-Composition Auto-Compression Auto-Encryption File-Name-Shadow Font-Lock Global-Auto-Composition Global-Font-Lock Gpm-Mouse Line-Number Menu-Bar Tool-Bar Tooltip Transient-Mark (Information about these minor modes follows the major mode info.) I don't think that list is going to make it hard for anyone to keep reading. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. Imagine, it has to annoy users about discussion such as Blink-Cursor, Tooltip, Menu-Bar, Mouse-Wheel, Transient-Mark, Delete-Selection, Font-Lock, Line-Number. Each of these is at least one paragraph long, These are at the END. When the user sees them, she has already read the info on the major mode, and she knows it. She will only try to read about the minor modes if she is curious about them. We list the minor mode info here as well as the major mode info, because otherwise we would need a separate command to give info about them, and that would be burdensome in another way. The way we present it is the best possible compromise between the various goals. It gives the minor mode info in brief form at the front, but puts most of it at the end, out of the way. I do see two ways to improve this: * Most minor mode doc strings include a standard explanation of what the argument means. We could include one copy of that standard explanation at the front of the list of minor mode doc strings, and then delete it from each of the individual doc strings, leaving just the explanation of what the mode means. * Some of these modes which are now enabled by default could perhaps be eliminated, leaving them only as options, or perhaps removing them entirely. That would shorten the list of enabled minor modes and make what remains more interesting. For instance, do we need to have Auto Compression mode as a minor mode? If you want to examine one compressed file without uncompressing it, it is easier to use find-file-literally. I think it is only for debugging that one would ever disable use Auto Compression mode. For that purpose, a No Auto Compression mode would be just as good, or perhaps a No File Handlers mode. Here are other default-on minor modes we should perhaps eliminate as modes: Auto-Composition Auto-Encryption File-Name-Shadow Global-Auto-Composition Gpm-Mouse Line-Number Tooltip From eliz@gnu.org Fri Feb 27 03:04:09 2009 Received: (at 2473) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 27 Feb 2009 11:04:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mtaout2.012.net.il (mtaout2.012.net.il [84.95.2.4]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1RB45K2018346 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 03:04:06 -0800 Received: from conversion-daemon.i_mtaout2.012.net.il by i_mtaout2.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) id <0KFQ00E001ALAS00@i_mtaout2.012.net.il> for 2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:04:35 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.167.119]) by i_mtaout2.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) with ESMTPA id <0KFQ00GM41FMUHM0@i_mtaout2.012.net.il>; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:04:35 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:04:01 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: rms@gnu.org, 2473@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: xah@xahlee.org Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii Message-id: References: <3FD7E241-BEE3-43D6-B7F6-79A3758562FB@xahlee.org> > From: Richard M Stallman > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:10:49 -0500 > Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > We list the minor mode info here as well as the major mode info, > because otherwise we would need a separate command to give info about > them, and that would be burdensome in another way. The way we present > it is the best possible compromise between the various goals. It > gives the minor mode info in brief form at the front, but puts most of > it at the end, out of the way. > > I do see two ways to improve this: I see a 3rd way: make the buffer present an expandable list of modes, starting with just 2 items: the current major modes and "minor modes", e.g. similar to what we do in Speedbar, or maybe in Outline Mode (under "Hide Sublevels"). In ASCII art: + Major Mode: RMAIL Mode + Minor Modes Clicking on a plus near Major Mode would then expand to the text we currently show for that major mode, for example: - Major Mode: RMAIL mode Rmail Mode is used by M-x rmail for editing Rmail files. All normal editing commands are turned off. Instead, these commands are available: . Move point to front of this message. / Move point to bottom of this message. SPC Scroll to next screen of this message. DEL Scroll to previous screen of this message. n Move to Next non-deleted message. p Move to Previous non-deleted message. + Minor Modes Clicking on "Minor Modes" would show only the list of modes with short descriptions: - Minor Modes: + Auto-Compression -- automatic file compression and uncompression. + Blink-Cursor -- blink cursor in current window. + Desktop-Save -- save Emacs session on exit. + Display-Time -- display time, load average, and mail flag in modeline. + File-Name-Shadow -- shadow ignored part of file name in minibuffer. etc., you get the picture. (We could also have a tooltip on each line showing more info for that mode.) Clicking on any of the plus signs near a minor mode would display the full documentation for that minor mode, the one we show today unconditionally. This way, the user will be able to expand only the modes she is interested in. Using the short description, the user will be able to find out what is/are the modes she is interested in, if she doesn't know that in advance. For more functionality, we could add buttons and/or help-echo links to go to the manual where the mode is fully described. WDYT? From lennart.borgman@gmail.com Fri Feb 27 03:31:33 2009 Received: (at 2473) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 27 Feb 2009 11:31:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.29]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1RBVTDh026832 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 03:31:31 -0800 Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 5so749389ywb.31 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 03:31:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=7E1G/jGHb+ryUKL6ObU+vlrcHxWrcWIR3NiRAEO6iGc=; b=uaMtTdfER6Hto6C3pyIm4BOOn5UwGvCryyisK43yiN47MmPPNDnjtocbWNMFWxb6Mk fu5yecXUeX/VSXV3cGLp0WFV5E9IXpatwLnuJHl5W2JNJLLFnPVZh7F6RkAPd5FjiYlN wZxY3JXXe+3MBg2ICJ91ZAnXD3I1vU6l2BC94= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DeECpbfYtITH3xAviFM3LZSaiKmw9T1VcX5yOuT4Y5Xpb4zbU11Mgw4xjfIPZp2vrm W/mDGh4JTCS/BO4l9DBNJCZ0y8kYBEIf1rK8y+It82B2MrufoWdtZ5LjXvrDLHXBEbpl QxtYmVDb6wTDsqzzbRj2qIB2MezPoojW2Jg6k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.20.65 with SMTP id e1mr2349557ibb.1.1235734289166; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 03:31:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <3FD7E241-BEE3-43D6-B7F6-79A3758562FB@xahlee.org> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:31:29 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode From: Lennart Borgman To: Eli Zaretskii , 2473@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: rms@gnu.org, xah@xahlee.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> I do see two ways to improve this: > > I see a 3rd way: make the buffer present an expandable list of modes, > starting with just 2 items: the current major modes and "minor modes", > e.g. similar to what we do in Speedbar, or maybe in Outline Mode > (under "Hide Sublevels"). =C2=A0In ASCII art: > > =C2=A0+ Major Mode: RMAIL Mode > =C2=A0+ Minor Modes > > Clicking on a plus near Major Mode would then expand to the text we > currently show for that major mode, for example: > > =C2=A0- Major Mode: RMAIL mode > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Rmail Mode is used by M-x rmail for editing R= mail files. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 All normal editing commands are turned off. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Instead, these commands are available: > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 . =C2=A0 =C2=A0Move point to front of this me= ssage. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 / =C2=A0 =C2=A0Move point to bottom of this m= essage. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SPC =C2=A0Scroll to next screen of this messa= ge. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DEL =C2=A0Scroll to previous screen of this m= essage. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 n =C2=A0 =C2=A0Move to Next non-deleted messa= ge. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 p =C2=A0 =C2=A0Move to Previous non-deleted m= essage. > > =C2=A0+ Minor Modes > > Clicking on "Minor Modes" would show only the list of modes with short > descriptions: > > =C2=A0- Minor Modes: > =C2=A0 =C2=A0+ Auto-Compression -- automatic file compression and uncompr= ession. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0+ Blink-Cursor -- blink cursor in current window. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0+ Desktop-Save -- save Emacs session on exit. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0+ Display-Time -- display time, load average, and mail flag = in modeline. > =C2=A0 =C2=A0+ File-Name-Shadow -- shadow ignored part of file name in mi= nibuffer. > > etc., you get the picture. =C2=A0(We could also have a tooltip on each li= ne > showing more info for that mode.) =C2=A0Clicking on any of the plus signs > near a minor mode would display the full documentation for that minor > mode, the one we show today unconditionally. > > This way, the user will be able to expand only the modes she is > interested in. =C2=A0Using the short description, the user will be able t= o > find out what is/are the modes she is interested in, if she doesn't > know that in advance. > > For more functionality, we could add buttons and/or help-echo links to > go to the manual where the mode is fully described. > > WDYT? A very good suggestion. From drew.adams@oracle.com Fri Feb 27 07:19:58 2009 Received: (at 2473) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 27 Feb 2009 15:19:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from rgminet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1RFJsUf026707 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:19:55 -0800 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n1RFKrqZ021047 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:20:54 GMT Received: from acsmt707.oracle.com (acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n1RFJknt015778; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:19:47 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.72.147) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:19:41 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" To: "'Lennart Borgman'" , <2473@debbugs.gnu.org>, "'Eli Zaretskii'" Cc: , References: <3FD7E241-BEE3-43D6-B7F6-79A3758562FB@xahlee.org> Subject: RE: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:19:39 -0800 Message-ID: <000401c998ee$d098e810$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcmY0QsvyUDDJTr5QRuZ+iMiFBwBBQAHJBlw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 In-Reply-To: X-Source-IP: acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.49A80492.001B:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > > make the buffer present an expandable list of modes, > > starting with just 2 items: the current major modes and=20 > > "minor modes", e.g. similar to what we do in Speedbar, or > > maybe in Outline Mode (under "Hide Sublevels"). =A0In ASCII art: > > > > =A0+ Major Mode: RMAIL Mode > > =A0+ Minor Modes > > > > Clicking on a plus near Major Mode would then expand to the text we > > currently show for that major mode, for example: > > > > =A0- Major Mode: RMAIL mode > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Rmail Mode is used by M-x rmail for editing Rmail = files. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 All normal editing commands are turned off. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Instead, these commands are available: > > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 . =A0 =A0Move point to front of this message. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 / =A0 =A0Move point to bottom of this message. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 SPC =A0Scroll to next screen of this message. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 DEL =A0Scroll to previous screen of this message. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 n =A0 =A0Move to Next non-deleted message. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 p =A0 =A0Move to Previous non-deleted message. > > > > =A0+ Minor Modes > > > > Clicking on "Minor Modes" would show only the list of modes=20 > > with short descriptions: > > > > =A0- Minor Modes: > > =A0 =A0+ Auto-Compression -- automatic file compression and=20 > > uncompression. > > =A0 =A0+ Blink-Cursor -- blink cursor in current window. > > =A0 =A0+ Desktop-Save -- save Emacs session on exit. > > =A0 =A0+ Display-Time -- display time, load average, and mail=20 > > flag in modeline. > > =A0 =A0+ File-Name-Shadow -- shadow ignored part of file name=20 > > in minibuffer. > > > > etc., you get the picture. =A0(We could also have a tooltip=20 > > on each line showing more info for that mode.) =A0Clicking on > > any of the plus signs near a minor mode would display the > > full documentation for that minor > > mode, the one we show today unconditionally. > > > > This way, the user will be able to expand only the modes she is > > interested in. =A0Using the short description, the user will=20 > > be able to find out what is/are the modes she is interested in, > > if she doesn't know that in advance. > > > > For more functionality, we could add buttons and/or help-echo > > links to go to the manual where the mode is fully described. > > > > WDYT? >=20 > A very good suggestion. Sounds good to me, too. Actually, we've been around this block before. This discussion 5 years = ago: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2004-05/msg00275.html seemed to end with people agreeing that we should show the major mode information and provide links to show the info for each minor mode (in = *Help*). But no one ever implemented it. The current suggestion is better in these related ways: * You can print all mode info at once (with ^L acting as page = separator). * You can show the info for more than one minor mode at a time, in case comparison helps. But of course agreement will not (again) mean anything if no one ever = implements it. From rms@gnu.org Fri Feb 27 15:35:52 2009 Received: (at 2473) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 27 Feb 2009 23:35:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1RNZnhL012168 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:35:51 -0800 Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LdCCv-0000nS-Gv; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:33:29 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 From: Richard M Stallman To: Eli Zaretskii CC: 2473@debbugs.gnu.org, xah@xahlee.org In-reply-to: (message from Eli Zaretskii on Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:04:01 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode Reply-to: rms@gnu.org References: Message-Id: Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:33:29 -0500 I see a 3rd way: make the buffer present an expandable list of modes, starting with just 2 items: the current major modes and "minor modes", e.g. similar to what we do in Speedbar, or maybe in Outline Mode (under "Hide Sublevels"). In ASCII art: + Major Mode: RMAIL Mode + Minor Modes Using hiding is a good idea -- thanks. I think that partcular way would be inconvenient. Specifically, it would be a hassle to initially hide the major mode documentation. That is what users most often want to see; making them type a command to expose it would be a gratuitous hassle. So I suggest putting the partly-hidden minor mode list first, followed by the totally visible major mode documentation. From lennart.borgman@gmail.com Fri Feb 27 15:57:04 2009 Received: (at 2473) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 27 Feb 2009 23:57:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mail-gx0-f177.google.com (mail-gx0-f177.google.com [209.85.217.177]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1RNv1uC019260 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:57:02 -0800 Received: by gxk25 with SMTP id 25so3430833gxk.1 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:56:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=fdjo8Fhe4f6NHTbZrk0DQ9Fo79HLqki7i1SfbWU9frM=; b=fO52XPqm006nf5l1oPBh9Ua3/sg4hMmhoStwLiQuvWwD5ciHOmFYaBFHWEa+6dIg5N pnVjJuWvvNFjdI3P32F72T2EHVv/c3Xy1t1arYIJIOOLSyrdJwHCTtgy6VJWlQQjL3/t Ywr2nbiMtEiClLq2ILrNeacaV+CMPLj+qWL+g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=f4SruqtsH/xER6c8f4+1kuTqFLKr3xBFhyPcmoUTjvy9rodGzs+6nEF9IuVPU75Asd AJBh+Wi0VaoqoMfIvCCfrFkCUSLBp4dnsVqXAG2VMN1HOPJAsnCMr9U7n27ky3BYBKDS 4uOENZ69MQlZHNwNyBt9+QhZhMIxplqpvKEQ8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.20.1 with SMTP id d1mr2553249ibb.19.1235779015438; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:56:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:56:55 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode From: Lennart Borgman To: rms@gnu.org, 2473@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: Eli Zaretskii , xah@xahlee.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 12:33 AM, Richard M Stallman wrote: > =C2=A0 =C2=A0I see a 3rd way: make the buffer present an expandable list = of modes, > =C2=A0 =C2=A0starting with just 2 items: the current major modes and "min= or modes", > =C2=A0 =C2=A0e.g. similar to what we do in Speedbar, or maybe in Outline = Mode > =C2=A0 =C2=A0(under "Hide Sublevels"). =C2=A0In ASCII art: > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+ Major Mode: RMAIL Mode > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+ Minor Modes > > Using hiding is a good idea -- thanks. > > I think that partcular way would be inconvenient. =C2=A0Specifically, it > would be a hassle to initially hide the major mode documentation. > That is what users most often want to see; making them type a command > to expose it would be a gratuitous hassle. > > So I suggest putting the partly-hidden minor mode list first, > followed by the totally visible major mode documentation. Maybe, but then make the major mode "node" hideable too. From drew.adams@oracle.com Fri Feb 27 15:59:07 2009 Received: (at 2473) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 27 Feb 2009 23:59:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from rgminet13.oracle.com (rcsinet13.oracle.com [148.87.113.125]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1RNx4Ym019438 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:59:05 -0800 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n1S002QR012872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:00:04 GMT Received: from acsmt700.oracle.com (acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id n1RNwulB020149; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:58:57 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.72.147) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:58:53 -0800 From: "Drew Adams" To: , <2473@debbugs.gnu.org>, "'Eli Zaretskii'" Cc: References: Subject: RE: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:58:59 -0800 Message-ID: <00d001c99937$5c745a70$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcmZNWtXZxUwf3hZTdqDw8s1Ali+wQAAUsJQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 In-Reply-To: X-Source-IP: acsmt700.oracle.com [141.146.40.70] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.49A87E3F.0189:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > I see a 3rd way: make the buffer present an expandable > list of modes, starting with just 2 items: the current major modes and > "minor modes", e.g. similar to what we do in Speedbar, or maybe in Outline Mode > (under "Hide Sublevels"). In ASCII art: > > + Major Mode: RMAIL Mode > + Minor Modes > > Using hiding is a good idea -- thanks. > > I think that partcular way would be inconvenient. Specifically, it > would be a hassle to initially hide the major mode documentation. > That is what users most often want to see; making them type a command > to expose it would be a gratuitous hassle. > > So I suggest putting the partly-hidden minor mode list first, > followed by the totally visible major mode documentation. I misread what Eli wrote. I thought he suggested showing the major-mode info, by default. That is what I would prefer: * Use expandable/contractable entries for each mode (including the major mode). * Expand the major mode info, by default. * Put the major mode entry *before* the minor mode entries (like it is now). IOW, I disagree with Richard about the order - keep the major mode first. We've already discussed this and decided to put minor-mode info after major mode info. That's TRT, IMO. From monnier@iro.umontreal.ca Fri Feb 27 20:34:33 2009 Received: (at 2473) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 28 Feb 2009 04:34:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER,XIRONPORT autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com (ironport2-out.teksavvy.com [206.248.154.182]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1S4YSWs013202 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:34:30 -0800 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArIFAA9OqEnO+JhN/2dsb2JhbACBWdVNhBQGg2s X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.38,280,1233550800"; d="scan'208";a="34517757" Received: from 206-248-152-77.dsl.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([206.248.152.77]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 27 Feb 2009 23:34:23 -0500 Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id DD06D9170; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:34:21 -0500 (EST) From: Stefan Monnier To: rms@gnu.org Cc: 2473@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , xah@xahlee.org Subject: Re: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:34:21 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Richard M. Stallman's message of "Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:33:29 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.91 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I see a 3rd way: make the buffer present an expandable list of modes, > starting with just 2 items: the current major modes and "minor modes", > e.g. similar to what we do in Speedbar, or maybe in Outline Mode > (under "Hide Sublevels"). In ASCII art: > + Major Mode: RMAIL Mode > + Minor Modes > Using hiding is a good idea -- thanks. > I think that partcular way would be inconvenient. Specifically, it > would be a hassle to initially hide the major mode documentation. > That is what users most often want to see; making them type a command > to expose it would be a gratuitous hassle. > So I suggest putting the partly-hidden minor mode list first, > followed by the totally visible major mode documentation. I don't think the difference with what we have now is worth the trouble. Basically, it's just a question of shortening the "list of minor modes" at the beginning of the buffer (e.g. by removing global minor modes from that list). Stefan From xah@xahlee.org Sat Feb 28 01:12:54 2009 Received: (at 2473) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 28 Feb 2009 09:12:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.195]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1S9Coa7007306 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 01:12:51 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.4] (c-24-6-175-142.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [24.6.175.142]) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus0) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MKp8S-1LdLFK1ZVW-000Nov; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 04:12:39 -0500 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <26F1345E-58EE-4C6A-B1DA-C72B7FC42FFC@xahlee.org> Cc: rms@gnu.org, 2473@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: xah lee Subject: Re: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 01:12:00 -0800 To: Stefan Monnier X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19VPaUEe8qp9BLEB9cvxYRHz7z3JioQQAkE9sT RXNJsZ4KlxzlJogWPKG9uFYhTtqIDY6ZFy61aYdky9SufoNU8v O7sbgGr6fCjoN7Yvpn2gA== For me, so far i personally prefer the solution where Ctrl+h m would =20 just show the major mode's inline doc. I think that pretty much fixed it, very simple solution. Showing the inline doc of major mode is a frequent operation. Perhaps =20= daily, or few times per week. Showing the inline doc of ALL minor =20 modes, is probably not used much. (personally, i can't think i needed =20= it in 10 years) For people who want to display inline doc of all minor modes at once, =20= the describe-mode can work as it is. As for the ^L char, I think Drew Adam's code works well. So, overall, for the above, the following simple code does the job. (defun describe-major-mode () "Show inline doc for current major-mode." ;; code by Kevin Rodgers. 2009-02-25 (interactive) (describe-function major-mode)) (global-set-key (kbd "C-h m") 'describe-major-mode) (require 'pp-c-l) (pretty-control-l-mode 1) ----------- For the hide/show solution, i think it's too complex. Complex in UI, =20 complex in implementation too. For me, if i wanted to discribe them =20 all, i rather prefer they all show, and not having to click each to =20 expand, or click on some Expand All button. Thanks for all the suggestions. Xah =E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/ =E2=98=84 ------------------- On Feb 27, 2009, at 8:34 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > I see a 3rd way: make the buffer present an expandable list of =20 > modes, > starting with just 2 items: the current major modes and "minor =20 > modes", > e.g. similar to what we do in Speedbar, or maybe in Outline Mode > (under "Hide Sublevels"). In ASCII art: > + Major Mode: RMAIL Mode > + Minor Modes > Using hiding is a good idea -- thanks. > I think that partcular way would be inconvenient. Specifically, it > would be a hassle to initially hide the major mode documentation. > That is what users most often want to see; making them type a command > to expose it would be a gratuitous hassle. > So I suggest putting the partly-hidden minor mode list first, > followed by the totally visible major mode documentation. I don't think the difference with what we have now is worth the trouble. Basically, it's just a question of shortening the "list of minor modes" at the beginning of the buffer (e.g. by removing global minor modes from that list). Stefan =E2=98=84 From eliz@gnu.org Sat Feb 28 02:54:55 2009 Received: (at 2473) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 28 Feb 2009 10:54:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mtaout1.012.net.il (mtaout1.012.net.il [84.95.2.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1SAsqm1011115 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:54:54 -0800 Received: from conversion-daemon.i-mtaout1.012.net.il by i-mtaout1.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0KFR00900VN8QP00@i-mtaout1.012.net.il> for 2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:55:25 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.167.119]) by i-mtaout1.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0KFR004SFVO80V40@i-mtaout1.012.net.il>; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:55:22 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:54:48 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii Subject: Re: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il To: Stefan Monnier Cc: rms@gnu.org, 2473@debbugs.gnu.org, xah@xahlee.org Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii Message-id: References: > From: Stefan Monnier > Cc: 2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, Eli Zaretskii , xah@xahlee.org > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:34:21 -0500 > > > I see a 3rd way: make the buffer present an expandable list of modes, > > starting with just 2 items: the current major modes and "minor modes", > > e.g. similar to what we do in Speedbar, or maybe in Outline Mode > > (under "Hide Sublevels"). In ASCII art: > > > + Major Mode: RMAIL Mode > > + Minor Modes > > > Using hiding is a good idea -- thanks. > > > I think that partcular way would be inconvenient. Specifically, it > > would be a hassle to initially hide the major mode documentation. > > That is what users most often want to see; making them type a command > > to expose it would be a gratuitous hassle. > > > So I suggest putting the partly-hidden minor mode list first, > > followed by the totally visible major mode documentation. For the record: I don't mind whether the major mode is first or last, nor whether it is Initially shown expanded or collapsed. > I don't think the difference with what we have now is worth > the trouble. The difference is twofold, IMO: . it presents a UI that's familiar to most users . it makes it easy to show initially a very short text without hampering user's ability to get to the information she needs most If that's not worth the trouble, then what is? (In case it wasn't clear, I wasn't suggesting that we make this change before Emacs 23.1 is released.) From lennart.borgman@gmail.com Sat Feb 28 03:05:45 2009 Received: (at 2473) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 28 Feb 2009 11:05:45 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.0 required=4.0 tests=HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.241]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1SB5gDx016901 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 03:05:43 -0800 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b38so1069404ana.31 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 03:05:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=fHPcqljOsxtpXO0USc4duhZ65mlXWPWAO3Av85ujjD8=; b=fD+ahptYFV1sXiZb3TJo6aQbCySSWxMYzOACwGCE8X4fc9aRaqusawqm0C8REljEUW WAO89rXPNbBLNML9yyaGz2TidP4IbbKvM/CC8NdZmSn1zralffTPa1ihBmWn0ixu9WFe w6rDGO97ZiBHZbh466V+EByIQ6R4gZkRO01TA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=i1c4RJs3Cga7Eq/Vwhh0diU3/TawOqAOkkxq3WYZ7cFclw2V0cP9cL5VOlmAiHL466 rMDzcwmkC/choAnZChzhSkXrBbpukzLNRhNv8FKWoLRLxtCRPmBXYRag8HB0nb6+WvPj wqWbFR91q1HnDxFCPNVlo724ZrkmuWcRnAjaA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.95.83 with SMTP id c19mr1267172vcn.88.1235819141660; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 03:05:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:05:41 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode From: Lennart Borgman To: Eli Zaretskii , 2473@debbugs.gnu.org Cc: Stefan Monnier , xah@xahlee.org, rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Stefan Monnier >> Cc: 2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, =C2=A0Eli Zaretskii ,= =C2=A0xah@xahlee.org >> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:34:21 -0500 >> >> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I see a 3rd way: make the buffer present an expandable l= ist of modes, >> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 starting with just 2 items: the current major modes and = "minor modes", >> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 e.g. similar to what we do in Speedbar, or maybe in Outl= ine Mode >> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (under "Hide Sublevels"). =C2=A0In ASCII art: >> >> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + Major Mode: RMAIL Mode >> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + Minor Modes >> >> > Using hiding is a good idea -- thanks. >> >> > I think that partcular way would be inconvenient. =C2=A0Specifically, = it >> > would be a hassle to initially hide the major mode documentation. >> > That is what users most often want to see; making them type a command >> > to expose it would be a gratuitous hassle. >> >> > So I suggest putting the partly-hidden minor mode list first, >> > followed by the totally visible major mode documentation. > > For the record: I don't mind whether the major mode is first or last, > nor whether it is Initially shown expanded or collapsed. > >> I don't think the difference with what we have now is worth >> the trouble. > > The difference is twofold, IMO: > > =C2=A0. it presents a UI that's familiar to most users > =C2=A0. it makes it easy to show initially a very short text without > =C2=A0 =C2=A0hampering user's ability to get to the information she needs= most And it is very easy to implement ... > If that's not worth the trouble, then what is? > > (In case it wasn't clear, I wasn't suggesting that we make this change > before Emacs 23.1 is released.) > > > > > From xma@gnu.org Sun Mar 1 03:25:24 2009 Received: (at 2473) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 1 Mar 2009 11:25:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2008-06-10) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=4.0 tests=FOURLA,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.5-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from mf1.conovae.net (ded1.conovae.com [88.191.52.166]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n21BPJVh021335 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sun, 1 Mar 2009 03:25:21 -0800 Received: by mf1.conovae.net (Postfix, from userid 10) id D5FDD261395; Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:24:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from zogzog.maillard.mobi (IDENT:1000@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zogzog.maillard.mobi (8.14.3/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n21BP3Hp029503; Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:25:03 +0100 Received: (from xma@localhost) by zogzog.maillard.mobi (8.14.3/8.13.8/Submit) id n21BP2VU029502; Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:25:02 +0100 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:25:02 +0100 Message-Id: <200903011125.n21BP2VU029502@zogzog.maillard.mobi> From: Xavier Maillard To: Eli Zaretskii CC: rms@gnu.org, 2473@debbugs.gnu.org, xah@xahlee.org In-reply-to: message from Eli Zaretskii on Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:04:01 +0200 Subject: Re: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode Organization: GNU's Not UNIX! User-Agent: Rmail GNU emacs 23.0 on Slackware 12.2.0 Jabber-ID: xma01@jabber.fr Reply-to: Xavier Maillard References: X-UUCPssh-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-UUCPssh: Found to be clean X-UUCPssh-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-4.399, required 6, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -1.80, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-UUCPssh-From: xma@gnu.org > From: Richard M Stallman > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:10:49 -0500 > Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > We list the minor mode info here as well as the major mode info, > because otherwise we would need a separate command to give info about > them, and that would be burdensome in another way. The way we present > it is the best possible compromise between the various goals. It > gives the minor mode info in brief form at the front, but puts most of > it at the end, out of the way. > > I do see two ways to improve this: I see a 3rd way: make the buffer present an expandable list of modes, starting with just 2 items: the current major modes and "minor modes", e.g. similar to what we do in Speedbar, or maybe in Outline Mode (under "Hide Sublevels"). In ASCII art: + Major Mode: RMAIL Mode + Minor Modes Clicking on a plus near Major Mode would then expand to the text we currently show for that major mode, for example: - Major Mode: RMAIL mode Rmail Mode is used by M-x rmail for editing Rmail files. All normal editing commands are turned off. Instead, these commands are available: . Move point to front of this message. / Move point to bottom of this message. SPC Scroll to next screen of this message. DEL Scroll to previous screen of this message. n Move to Next non-deleted message. p Move to Previous non-deleted message. + Minor Modes Clicking on "Minor Modes" would show only the list of modes with short descriptions: - Minor Modes: + Auto-Compression -- automatic file compression and uncompression. + Blink-Cursor -- blink cursor in current window. + Desktop-Save -- save Emacs session on exit. + Display-Time -- display time, load average, and mail flag in modeline. + File-Name-Shadow -- shadow ignored part of file name in minibuffer. etc., you get the picture. (We could also have a tooltip on each line showing more info for that mode.) Clicking on any of the plus signs near a minor mode would display the full documentation for that minor mode, the one we show today unconditionally. [...] WDYT? This is a really good suggestion and would greatly improve C-h m usability (which is the OP's main complaint. Xavier -- http://www.gnu.org http://www.april.org http://www.lolica.org From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Mar 06 18:50:12 2012 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Mar 2012 23:50:12 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36704 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1S548x-0005Gn-Pl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2012 18:50:12 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:44177) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1S548l-0005G2-DF for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2012 18:50:00 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1S547q-00056w-Aa for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 06 Mar 2012 18:49:02 -0500 Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 18:49:02 -0500 Message-Id: Subject: control message for bug 2473 To: X-Mailer: mail (GNU Mailutils 2.1) From: Glenn Morris X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.9 (------) merge 575 2473 From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 12 20:52:00 2022 Received: (at 2473) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Apr 2022 00:52:00 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50756 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1neREl-0004h5-KH for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 20:51:59 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:52470) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1neREi-0004gk-TT; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 20:51:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=LTL4PUJh1RrNTPbOnMS+TFnoNGwh9aHiYE6eejuHkpQ=; b=g3iq57cH8kpdVWxGHmFAxc86C7 Foz3TvF2oswOmKOVkiLZqA5GkvQM+vOZKmc4i51vCZXFT9bgaBABzT22jnAFm9CBdJEnGx/JG0a8K ldTMniO56STQot2UD835mHwnWYHMeOPVLxOORRahi2SIpYb6QUGSz9wsAGVB/wINl9bo=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1neREa-00064m-DD; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 02:51:50 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: xah lee Subject: Re: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode References: Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 02:51:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: (xah lee's message of "Fri, 18 Jul 2008 22:45:02 -0700") Message-ID: <87czhlst3w.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: xah lee writes: > Here's a suggestion: add link to info doc in describe mode. > > Detail: When just using a unfamiliar new mode, such as org-mode, i use > M-x describe-mode to see what commands are available. > > It [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 2473 Cc: 575@debbugs.gnu.org, 2473@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) xah lee writes: > Here's a suggestion: add link to info doc in describe mode. > > Detail: When just using a unfamiliar new mode, such as org-mode, i use > M-x describe-mode to see what commands are available. > > It would be nice that somewhere there is a link to the info doc of the > mode if it exists. I've now added a link to the major mode function in the `describe-mode' output, and from there the user can use the `i' command (etc.) to look up the manual entry. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 12 21:50:49 2022 Received: (at 2473) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Apr 2022 01:50:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50842 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1neS9h-0006xf-JE for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 21:50:49 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:52788) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1neS9f-0006xP-4V for 2473@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 21:50:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=0OQ2bEGpEAhDxCJkNWrQ3hBoAToO52z7g2GiCcCPvxI=; b=XAtjGhxKeLKOdKL1BL+r3BSq8G 8eQV34f6nwZLF06+CYTfS4hUX/KA4ZBNVip6Wdo5Pzt14J8w8huFqCiJUM09f1i2wazWvgElymM76 8mmXmYan7zCjVh6JJZSGFuY4wo1itcTI5GQwTHjZ0mvgZjwyJ9DpnRYMlsCylqEUNQYY=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1neS9V-0006Xj-0V; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 03:50:39 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Stefan Monnier Subject: Re: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode References: <3FD7E241-BEE3-43D6-B7F6-79A3758562FB@xahlee.org> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 03:50:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:15:28 -0500") Message-ID: <878rs9sqdz.fsf@gnus.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Monnier writes: > OTOH, I agree that many of the above modes shouldn't be there. > More specifically, I think that the above list should only list > buffer-specific information, i.e. only minor modes which are > buff [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 2473 Cc: xah lee , 2473@debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier writes: > OTOH, I agree that many of the above modes shouldn't be there. > More specifically, I think that the above list should only list > buffer-specific information, i.e. only minor modes which are > buffer-local. > > The global minor modes could still be present in the *Help* buffer, but > then only at the very end, after the major mode and after the > buffer-local minor modes. I've now done something along these lines in Emacs 29. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no From debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 12 21:50:55 2022 Received: (at control) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Apr 2022 01:50:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50845 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1neS9m-0006xx-Rw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 21:50:55 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:52804) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1neS9k-0006xX-L4 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Apr 2022 21:50:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Subject:From:To:Message-Id:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc: MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Iot78xWiMV8cE4+HANDiD3kkcl0CHEovHIk7IN9FDMM=; b=jMiPlzYWPaqdlFc/tGb3Ksa4eZ o1RqrbPkVkaSN0TEYEe5wxhEk6cEKkEcstdM0ZWCrdk+lpVzZVkOY6exYcqmL5ZKzQp/S7UJz0VCM S6vSBASXy/jVA2J/PpOtnOBAlP30TQSfiiz5kr8Ch1lASITixOh/XovX7VOe7Oz8BjPg=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1neS9c-0006Xs-I4 for control@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Apr 2022 03:50:46 +0200 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2022 03:50:42 +0200 Message-Id: <877d7tsqdp.fsf@gnus.org> To: control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Subject: control message for bug #2473 X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: close 2473 29.1 quit Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: control X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) close 2473 29.1 quit From unknown Tue Jun 17 20:15:28 2025 Received: (at fakecontrol) by fakecontrolmessage; To: internal_control@debbugs.gnu.org From: Debbugs Internal Request Subject: Internal Control Message-Id: bug archived. Date: Wed, 11 May 2022 11:24:08 +0000 User-Agent: Fakemail v42.6.9 # This is a fake control message. # # The action: # bug archived. thanks # This fakemail brought to you by your local debbugs # administrator